Boring bar options for 3.0 litre mercs

[LOSTINJ]

been looking into purchasing a professional boring bar and stand in order to machine my own blocks since my STR Shaun Torrente engines failed with under 5 min run time .

Looking @ Kwikway model FN with the 054 stand , anybody used this set up on 3.0 litre Merc ? I see an issue with the 054 plate as it will interfere with the exhaust chest .

[baja200merk]

YOu use parallels (spacers) to move the block down so the chest clears the table.

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

I'm pretty sure unless you build a lot of motors you will be better off sending your blocks to a good shop to get them bored.I have several bars,including an FN,and although i have the kwik-way table I don't use it...I built a custom table that the block bolts under using the head bolts,so the block is 1. not distorted by the clamping force on the deck ends and the main ways...and
2.the deck and cylinders are stressed the same as if the head was torqued in place...resulting in straight bores when the engine is back together,similar to using a torque plate in the automotive world.On performance motors we bore with the crankcase front torqued in place too...stressing the bottom of the bores as well.
The parallels/main way method of clamping was really a universal system for cast iron automotive blocks...works but is a PIA to keep a good paralell cut and bends the block under clamping pressure.
If you insist on getting your own machine I would suggest on of my favorites,the Van Norman 777-S...Way less money,easier to use,harder to break,less expensive tooling...I use mine almost every day.Also,you can have an adapter plate made to bolt to the block that the bar mounts on...presto,no need for a table at all,lift the 185 pound bar onto the block with a cherry-picker and have at it...
Remember to champher the ports and hone to finish size before a hot soapy water wash (several times)...then oil the cylinders before they rust ,good luck,Chris

[baja200merk]

I use a 777s with a torque plate I made which has counter sink bolts and tha bar sits on it.

watch this video at the 25sec mark they show cyl distortion on a steel cummins block. Imagine how much an aluminum block distorts :eek:

http://youtu.be/Cx_DCUht-Xg

[LOSTINJ]

Thanks Chris and Baja?
First off I decided to go ahead and build my own powerheads after a great deal of money spent with STR Shaun Torrente 3.2 Litre EFI strokers that were ported incorrectly ( no chamfering) and debris left in block scored new bores .

Chris I spoke to you after this happened and have purchased reeds from you for other boats I have , great reeds ! Here is my logic , got a quote for 4000.00 each power so the 3000 K I spent Kwikway fn with stand and special blind hole cutter is cheap . By the way even though I have never bored a block I have shop of my own and kind of said why not . Fortunately for me a close friend has well known machine shop and was top fuel crew chief @ one time so I'm in good hands !

Merk ,
Great thread for block distortion and I have been concerned as well so the block will somehow be bolted to thick plate with counter sunk holes . My friend who owns a machine shop will only bore blocks certain times of year as contraction-expansion from different seasons . Buying a honing bar next !

[flabum1017]

Thing about machinists..... no matter who you use, the guy who puts the engine together is really responsible for cleanliness and making sure everything is good (such as chamfers (sic) ). I can't tell you how many hours I spent massaging blocks to live after getting them back from reputable machine shops. It really is not the fault of the machine shop (and many have disclaimers) if the work is not checked before assembly. A lot of machine shops I have used will tell me to do the cleaning and checking and it is basically my responsibility to be sure it is right before I assemble it. Every engine I put together, even if the machine shop sends me all the parts, is triple checked upon assembly. Most of the time the machine shop does a good job, but it only takes one screw up to kill a lot of peoples' reputations (and I have caught a lot of screw ups). It's better to be thorough than to trust someone that everyone swears by. As far as getting it right, torque plates are the way to go and to go extreme is to use ovens to heat things up to temp for final measurements. But even that is not full-proof because bolting on a cylinder head is not the same. Nothing is an exact science, that is what gaskets are for.... to allow for discrepancies. (and sealing).

[LOSTINJ]

does anyone manufacture a torque plate for 3.0 litre merc or do I have to mill my own ? If I have to make my own I may start with a stock head and machine it

[rock]

I use an FN with a torgue plate. I have also made caps to attach the block to the lifting bar. Once block is situated I have 1 1/4 threaded rods that fix block to bottom of table.I have removed the float clamp assembly and the pneumatic centering system. Without those changes it was iffy at best but since then it has been spot on. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

Rock

[baja200merk]

I recently came accross a 2.5 block a buddy had bored by a reputable shop. Mercury dealer, racer and machineist for 30 years. They bored all 6 holes .040 over and they did not clearance the aluminum below the sleeve. I told him the aluminum is gonna grab the piston and scuff it. first pass wide open guess what happened :rolleyes: boom.

I always make sure there is plenty of clearance. Sometimes the aluminum under the sleeve is not bored exactly strait with the sleeve so you can have .020 clearance on one side and .000 on the other side. I made a cutter to clearance the bottom I've never had a problem with .040 over.

[cali kid]

does anyone manufacture a torque plate for 3.0 litre merc or do I have to mill my own ? If I have to make my own I may start with a stock head and machine it
Torque plate kinda a waste of time, since 3 liter merc is open deck. Bolts are nowhere near the bores. No offence, but overkill on this motor.

[Lil' Blue Rude]

Does anyone have any pictures of their boring bar setup they'd mind posting? Thanks.

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Torque plate kinda a waste of time, since 3 liter merc is open deck. Bolts are nowhere near the bores. No offence, but overkill on this motor.
Well,put your block in the clamp table,lightly clamped with parallels on the ends. Install a dial indicator on the table reading the height of the center cylinder top and zero it,and while you're at it measure the center cylinder for roundness 1/2 inch from the top,make notes.Now tighten the clamp enough that you don't worry a lot anything moving...like you would to bore...and see if the dial dosent read + .010~.012.Check that cylinder for roundness,I think you'll agree bolting to the table with the head bolts will result in much better job.
This is just my observation,and I'm sure with saddles on the mains and more parallels or a system like Rocks good results can be attained,but the table as sold and used as the instructions explain is not capable of producing acceptable results on outboard (or any high performance blocks)in my opinion.
Is the tourque plate critical?,probably not...is the factory clamp method good?,not for me,so I solved the problem by mounting the block and bar on opposing sides of a Blanchard ground turret table that mounts all the modern blocks by the head bolts,they come out very straight,

[cali kid]

Well,put your block in the clamp table,lightly clamped with parallels on the ends. Install a dial indicator on the table reading the height of the center cylinder top and zero it,and while you're at it measure the center cylinder for roundness 1/2 inch from the top,make notes.Now tighten the clamp enough that you don't worry a lot anything moving...like you would to bore...and see if the dial dosent read + .010~.012.Check that cylinder for roundness,I think you'll agree bolting to the table with the head bolts will result in much better job.
This is just my observation,and I'm sure with saddles on the mains and more parallels or a system like Rocks good results can be attained,but the table as sold and used as the instructions explain is not capable of producing acceptable results on outboard (or any high performance blocks)in my opinion.
Is the tourque plate critical?,probably not...is the factory clamp method good?,not for me,so I solved the problem by mounting the block and bar on opposing sides of a Blanchard ground turret table that mounts all the modern blocks by the head bolts,they come out very straight,
I wish you were nearby. You would certainly have my business.

[Chaz]

I recently came accross a 2.5 block a buddy had bored by a reputable shop. Mercury dealer, racer and machineist for 30 years. They bored all 6 holes .040 over and they did not clearance the aluminum below the sleeve. I told him the aluminum is gonna grab the piston and scuff it. first pass wide open guess what happened :rolleyes: boom.

I always make sure there is plenty of clearance. Sometimes the aluminum under the sleeve is not bored exactly strait with the sleeve so you can have .020 clearance on one side and .000 on the other side. I made a cutter to clearance the bottom I've never had a problem with .040 over.

Out of sight , out of mind ... :cool:
The 3.2 stuff brings the skirt way out of the bore at BDC . But that is nothing like doin a .229 over to have ya campin out at the green wheel ... ;) :D

[53w]

I used to get my racing blocks done by Ruck, I wanted to do my own work and asked him to teach me. I told him I was going to order a boring head and wanted to know the basics.
He said if I buy a head he never will show me, you must build your own head to get a good one. Anything you buy will have issues. He showed me his own custom made boring heads. I went and built one and he did show me what was all need to get straight and round, dress bit to cut correctly. That was just on small inline twins.

His v6 stuff was all custom made fixtures and boring heads also. They located bores perfectly off of crank centerline.

There is a lot more to it then just ordering a boring head out of magazine and expect to get a good out come. But if you really want to do it, it can be done, but you will have to build the tooling to do right.

[baja200merk]

Out of sight , out of mind ... :cool:
The 3.2 stuff brings the skirt way out of the bore at BDC . But that is nothing like doin a .229 over to have ya campin out at the green wheel ... ;) :D
when everything from 86 to 2015 is same stroke except the 3.4.... Green grinding wheel?? :D

[TEXAS20225]

say what you want i dont find any better machine work then from james perry he is a builder as well as a machine shop man ive built around 300 motors most bored with a torque plate and a very nice cross hatch hone( not the 3 stone 4'' on a 1/2 drill motor and a zip it up and down a couple time and you got a professional hone job:rolleyes: )along with the best porting man in the USA they are just good real good i used Ruck till he sold out to Bocephas no mass

[LOSTINJ]

Does anyone know where I can purchase a 3.0 litre Torque plate ? Also looking at Sunnen hone

[outasite]

Does anyone have any pictures of their boring bar setup they'd mind posting? Thanks.
This is the setup that I have used for years.It pulls on the four head bolt bosses of the cylinder being bored.For those thinking of getting/using a boring bar,be sure to get the proper tool holder for "blind holes" it's a special holder that will let you bore to the very bottom of the sleeve holder.You will see in the pics that the tool tip is the lowest part of the bar.332727332728332729

[LOSTINJ]

thanks for the pics !! Yes my Quikway came with offset cutter for blind holes Matt @ CCA Racing manufacture of Torque plates going to make a plate for me

[RichS]

There are also blind hole tool holders for indexable inserts available for the various machines if that's how you want to go.

[Chaz]

I wish you were nearby. You would certainly have my business.

Sooooo , I take it you left your conversation with Mr. Carson knowing just a little more than when you entered it .. :smiletest:
It's that way for most people ... including myself .. :thumbsup:


baja200merk

Green grinding wheel??

It's pretty pricy having a tool maker grind up special tooling . A friend of mine has a magnetic table surface grinder , and it ... yes ... has a green wheel ... ;)
I picked up a 4" wheel from a flywheel grinder a few years ago and fit it to a .750" mandrel ... it's slow going , but it will produce things like this O-ring receiver groove cutter from a slab of tool steel ....

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/20151205_150928_zpstxsr0spp.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/TubeCarz/media/20151205_150928_zpstxsr0spp.jpg.html)

My Kwik-Way SVS ll valve grinder uses a 7" wheel . I have both , white and ruby wheels that are due to be replaced . Instead of throwing them away , I'm going to cut a striped thread Morse taper mandrel to fit them . If the larger wheel allows for a higher feed rate ... so much the better. If not , it was junk ready to be pitched in the can ... ;)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/20151205_150900_zpsoefbywib.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/TubeCarz/media/20151205_150900_zpsoefbywib.jpg.html)

3.4 - 3.6 , bout a quarter inch .... with .050 still to go .... :D

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/20151205_151126_zpsrruifmyq.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/TubeCarz/media/20151205_151126_zpsrruifmyq.jpg.html)

[baja200merk]

Closed deck and looks like the deck is missing some meat :p

[Chaz]

Just enough to make it flat .... and square to the crank :D

Chaz = thinking that you gotz a Palm City hedge clipper too ... ;)

[LongShot]

This is the setup that I have used for years.It pulls on the four head bolt bosses of the cylinder being bored.For those thinking of getting/using a boring bar,be sure to get the proper tool holder for "blind holes" it's a special holder that will let you bore to the very bottom of the sleeve holder.You will see in the pics that the tool tip is the lowest part of the bar.332727332728332729
How are you clamping the boring bar to the table? Can you rely on your tool setting mike to get you close enough to hone without measuring hole between cuts?

[LongShot]

Chaz has the block shown been sleeved with aluminum sleeves and being plated afterwards?

[LOSTINJ]

My Quikway model FN comes with optional 1-1/4 thick plate to which the bar mounts . Then you simply raise the block up to steel plate and bore holes , however I will be using a torque plate .

[outasite]

How are you clamping the boring bar to the table? Can you rely on your tool setting mike to get you close enough to hone without measuring hole between cuts?
If you look at picture three,you will see a knurled hold down stud that screws into the table.The boring bar has a T slot that you can see as well,The stud slides into the T slot,the cats paws are used to center the bar then the clamp nut tightened.The whole process takes a few seconds.I usually take a .005 cut first,this will confirm that I am boring straight down the bore.I took the time to adjust my tool micrometer to cut dead nuts.I leave .0015-.002 to hone.

[LongShot]

If you look at picture three,you will see a knurled hold down stud that screws into the table.The boring bar has a T slot that you can see as well,The stud slides into the T slot,the cats paws are used to center the bar then the clamp nut tightened.The whole process takes a few seconds.I usually take a .005 cut first,this will confirm that I am boring straight down the bore.I took the time to adjust my tool micrometer to cut dead nuts.I leave .0015-.002 to hone.
I am guessing you tighten the knurled knob from bottom of table once you center using the expanding catspaw? My Van Norman does not have a t-slot, i wish it did. I move the block around under the table while adjusting the catspaws out to center. You just have to get the block snugged up just enough to rock the block a little while putting pressure on the cylinder with the catspaws. Been torn a little bit around slotting the table where the stud I use to hold the bar down is threaded and moving the bar. Only problem withthat is I have the bar indicated in to the bottom surface of the table that the deck of the block clamps up to within .001" at 10" of sweep.

I am needing some Van Norman 777 parts if anyone has access or some spares laying around. During a shop move the 777 was knocked over, table and all, and I think the column is bent. I am refurbishing/ piecing together a 777s now. Need a new set of the shoes that the catspaw's bolt to and mesh with the scroll plate. Will call Winona tomorrow to see if 777 and 777S catspaws are same. I installed the shoes out of the 777 into the 777s and they feed in and out but you can hold the catspaws and rock them a little vertically when they are fed out about halfway.i had the preload spring on top of the driveshaft loaded pretty tight. It should control mesh of shoes and scroll.

[outasite]

Dave,the T slot is attached to a lead screw that comes out of the rear of the main housing.The whole machine can rotate 360 degrees around the stud,plus move in or out a couple of inches,one turn of lead screw and its tight,very fast.On a V8 you mount directly to the deck,bore two holes from the one position,just rotate.Then move down and do the other two.

[LongShot]

Dave,the T slot is attached to a lead screw that comes out of the rear of the main housing.The whole machine can rotate 360 degrees around the stud,plus move in or out a couple of inches,one turn of lead screw and its tight,very fast.On a V8 you mount directly to the deck,bore two holes from the one position,just rotate.Then move down and do the other two.
So the knurled knob on a V8 would be attached to the rod connected to the arbor running through the mains? The lead screw on the machine actually tightens the knurled knob down on the t slot rail? I might be getting it wrong but just interests me as I consider a different style bar.

[outasite]

So the knurled knob on a V8 would be attached to the rod connected to the arbor running through the mains? The lead screw on the machine actually tightens the knurled knob down on the t slot rail? I might be getting it wrong but just interests me as I consider a different style bar.
Well kinda,The knurled knob is one of about six,in the tool kit,each one having a different thread.When doing a V8 you would select one that is the same thread as a head bolt,and screw it into the deck,between two cylinders.Or there is another fixture where the knob is a long bolt that screws into a Crossbar at the bottom of the cylinder.All that is needed is a T that the T slot can pull up on.The lead screw pulls up on the T bar witch pulls down on the boring bar and locks it to the deck.

[LongShot]

Yep. I don't use mine as a portable but that arrangement is better than the van norman t bar and clamp. Keep your eyes and ears open for vn 777 or 777s parts.
It is interesting to indicate in the perpindicularity of the bar bolted to a parallel ground plate. The bottom of the boring bar housing is not perfectly true. I had to shim mine .006 to get it trued up.

[outasite]

Ya have to watch buying a used machine.Most are over fifty years old,and they are very clumsy,and heavy.Quite often they have at some point fell off the stand,and can be sprung a little out of alignment.Most are not serviced any longer.

[skeeter91]

well here's mine.flip table(ground) makes mounting the blocks a snap.332861332862 i made t.plates to fit xflows and mercs. im still working out the exact procedure for running it,but i got plenty of junk blocks to play with.so far its worked really well,just gotta put a new feed gear in the 777.

[rock]

Ya have to watch buying a used machine.Most are over fifty years old,and they are very clumsy,and heavy.Quite often they have at some point fell off the stand,and can be sprung a little out of alignment.Most are not serviced any longer.

Truer words have never been spoken. Mine came from a formerly "the best shop in town" machine shop. It came with an 048 table, an FN, and an FWS2. Pneumatic centering and a float clamp. First on the agenda was to replace the boring head as it was trashed by the last repairman who did not bother to seat the bottom race. Wonder why their reputation went in the crapper. Followed by the removal of the pneumatic centering (what a joke) then the float/clamp. Final alteration was to replace the gears in the FWS2. The shop that had it was a family owned shop that had their kid running the place. I bought several machines from them when they went down and have had to rework/rebuild every piece.

Rock

[LongShot]

Rock what is the range of the fws2? I worked on my. 777s today and it is going to need a set of shoes and thrust washer. I also have to buy all new tooling for it. There is an fws2 for sale locally with the triangular table and all the plates to do Harley jugs from shovel head up to the EVO. Figure I could sell stand, Harley fixtures and part out my two van Normans and come out.

[rock]

My FWS2 bores 1 3/4 to 3 3/4 with a 12" stroke. Iffn you want to do blind bores you might freak on the cost of a cutter. Ain't pretty.
Hope all is well Dave.

Rock

[LongShot]

My FWS2 bores 1 3/4 to 3 3/4 with a 12" stroke. Iffn you want to do blind bores you might freak on the cost of a cutter. Ain't pretty.
Hope all is well Dave.

Rock
I know what you mean. Looked at one for an FN at Beam and it was $150 with indexable cutter. I am non-proficient at silver solder and green wheel so the replaceable inserts are the way to go for me. Just got off the phone with Cavco and new expansion jaws are NLA. Reminds me of Mother Merc. Left you a PM. Give me a ring.

[outasite]

OK, you guys with a kwikway bar,most of you know that kwikway is out of business.At some point you will need this information.A fella in Texas named Craig Coder,(Coder parts supply)214/707-0984 has taken over,and is supplying tooling and some repair parts.His plan is to service these machines long term.So put this number away,at some point you will be glad you did. - BTW Kwikway blind hole indexable tool holder new $135 Ebay free ship

[rock]

Wow. That's what I get for calling Kwik Way for tooling and not shopping around. I had one made by them and it was well over $300. Sharpening wheel for FN was also absurd. Thanks for the info.

Rock

[LOSTINJ]

Thanks for the info !!!

[LongShot]

No more portable boring bars made in USA.....sad.

[rock]

I will get with you next week Dave.

Rock

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

+1 for Mr Coder...Fast courteous service and a very fair price...especially considering he's really the only game in town,and 30 years Kwik Way experience to boot,Chris

[Chaz]

Having run a Kwik-Way 30 years ago , I just couldn't bring myself to buying a bar made in China , let alone one made in India where quite a bit of machinery production seem's to be shifting twords.
Before driving to Georgia and taking a chance of paying too much for a machine that parts were no longer made for ( we can always make our own );) I searched around and found that Irontite took over the valve grinder and flywheel turning machines and had some left over parts like stock type boring bits and drive belts . But for the most part everything went to Craig .
I asked Joe at Irontite what happened to an iconic company like Kwik-Way . He said that they were having a hard time getting good casting's for the main housing as well as other outside parts. Every year they ordered less and less volume. To the point where some vendors couldn't afford to deal with them . The tooling was old and pretty well worn , and no one was willing to reinvest is a dwindling market . He said they kept the two products they could produce and still make a profit , at least for the time being . Pretty sad , what we have done to our self's .
So next I spoke to Craig , he said he had gears , shaft's , bushings , bearings , feed screw's , pretty much anything I needed to get one up and running, even if it has been sitting for quite a while . It was nice to speak with someone who cares for these machines more so today , than when he started with the company three decades ago.
The big thing seem's to be the micrometer . Or course they are no longer available . Guys on flee-bay want 1K for one that's beat up . They usually sell the machine "missing a few tools" and then sell the gotta have it's later for a crazy price . Craig didnt have one at the time , but he said he sell's one that he true's the contact face and re-calibrates for $500.
The other thing is the "cat whiskers" that it takes to cover the 3 - 4.5 inch range . Three or four sets of three whiskers @ $100 ea whisker starts to add up pretty quick .
So I left for Georgia , expecting the worse , but was presently suprized to find a closed-up auto parts store straight out of the 60's . We had to look around , but found EVERYTHING . I paid the man what he was asking , swapped a few stories of days gone by and away I went . I couldn't help but look in the rear view mirror , glancing at the old gal , knowing she was built in a time when factory workers took pride in what they were making . Assemblers who took time to shim every tolerance perfectly , even if it meant pulling the unit apart more than once . Not worrying if the management team was going to pull them off the floor for " being incompetent" .
30 years ago , I didn't see any of that . I ran one because it was a way to make a pay check .. today , it's more like riding an old flathead , flying in a Piper Cub or being lucky enough to take a tour of Chris Carson's outboard museum room .... Perhaps that's why the Kwik-Way gods have entrusted me with such a fine specimen of an era gone by .. :thumbsup:

[LongShot]

Any thoughts on an FT Kwik Way with all tooling?

[LongShot]

Having run a Kwik-Way 30 years ago , I just couldn't bring myself to buying a bar made in China , let alone one made in India where quite a bit of machinery production seem's to be shifting twords.
Before driving to Georgia and taking a chance of paying too much for a machine that parts were no longer made for ( we can always make our own );) I searched around and found that Irontite took over the valve grinder and flywheel turning machines and had some left over parts like stock type boring bits and drive belts . But for the most part everything went to Craig .
I asked Joe at Irontite what happened to an iconic company like Kwik-Way . He said that they were having a hard time getting good casting's for the main housing as well as other outside parts. Every year they ordered less and less volume. To the point where some vendors couldn't afford to deal with them . The tooling was old and pretty well worn , and no one was willing to reinvest is a dwindling market . He said they kept the two products they could produce and still make a profit , at least for the time being . Pretty sad , what we have done to our self's .
So next I spoke to Craig , he said he had gears , shaft's , bushings , bearings , feed screw's , pretty much anything I needed to get one up and running, even if it has been sitting for quite a while . It was nice to speak with someone who cares for these machines more so today , than when he started with the company three decades ago.
The big thing seem's to be the micrometer . Or course they are no longer available . Guys on flee-bay want 1K for one that's beat up . They usually sell the machine "missing a few tools" and then sell the gotta have it's later for a crazy price . Craig didnt have one at the time , but he said he sell's one that he true's the contact face and re-calibrates for $500.
The other thing is the "cat whiskers" that it takes to cover the 3 - 4.5 inch range . Three or four sets of three whiskers @ $100 ea whisker starts to add up pretty quick .
So I left for Georgia , expecting the worse , but was presently suprized to find a closed-up auto parts store straight out of the 60's . We had to look around , but found EVERYTHING . I paid the man what he was asking , swapped a few stories of days gone by and away I went . I couldn't help but look in the rear view mirror , glancing at the old gal , knowing she was built in a time when factory workers took pride in what they were making . Assemblers who took time to shim every tolerance perfectly , even if it meant pulling the unit apart more than once . Not worrying if the management team was going to pull them off the floor for " being incompetent" .
30 years ago , I didn't see any of that . I ran one because it was a way to make a pay check .. today , it's more like riding an old flathead , flying in a Piper Cub or being lucky enough to take a tour of Chris Carson's outboard museum room .... Perhaps that's why the Kwik-Way gods have entrusted me with such a fine specimen of an era gone by .. :thumbsup:

Chaz I feel the connection to the Van Normans much the way you explain your fondness of the KW. I saw a picture with a jig made to carry I am thinking 20 777 VN's machining the wing spar of a B17 in a Boeing factory during WW2. They used the boring bars due to ruggedness, rigidity and simplicity. My dad worked in a salvage crew in the Army Air Corp in WW2 and I have a picture of him sitting on a downed B17 wing.....When you work on one of the bars and the craftsman who built it has scribed hand written numbers on the critical matching parts it reminds of you of how proud we were of what we made.

[LOSTINJ]

Great stuff , thanks to all that have responded!
Here are a few pics of my KW -FN that I paid 3 k for , hope I didn't pay too much !

[LongShot]

Great stuff , thanks to all that have responded!
Here are a few pics of my KW -FN that I paid 3 k for , hope I didn't pay too much !
Very nice. Is that a power hone in the background?? Got any diamond stones??

[LOSTINJ]

It is but it was sold for only 1400 a day before I bought this FN , Damn !!

[LongShot]

SHIITE! I needed that! On another note. I sat down and had a heart to heart session with my old 777s. The machine runs and cycles smoothly I just didn't have a set of matching expansion jaws. I had bought a lot of parts and pieces and went through the jaws and came up with a number 3 in good shape which is what I needed. Installed it in the correct position and all the other jaws got loose. Now this is against the cardinal rules that I had been told but since you can't find parts i decided I had to make this work. These things were supposedly set at the factory within .0005" . Anyway, I pulled all 4 jaws and miked them across their height. I measured both across the body and across the jaw including the "threads". Found the 3 out of the original set dead nuts. The replacement was .002" thicker. I used a lapping stone and dressed it down to the same dimension as the other three. Put them all back in and installed the #2 set of catspaws. Put a 1/4" ball bearing in the screw recess of the catspaws across from each other and miked them. Did the same for the other two. Factory tolerance is .003"......I ended up with .002"!!! Happy, happy, happy. Now does anyone have a quick and dirty set up on setting a dial indicator on the tool holder so I can double check my work??

[baja200merk]

Got my 777s for $380 on eBay :D

[LongShot]

Ordered tooling with carbide inserts today. Also found a Van Norman 777S micrometer. Just about to get back in the game. Does anyone besides Wiseco/Wizzard make a .044 over 2.5 piston? Haven't found a Pro or Vertex.

[LongShot]

Got my 777s for $380 on eBay :D

Can't complain. Both of mine were given to me many,many years ago. The legend Mr. Junior Eaves used them.

[baja200merk]

Ordered tooling with carbide inserts today. Also found a Van Norman 777S micrometer. Just about to get back in the game. Does anyone besides Wiseco/Wizzard make a .044 over 2.5 piston? Haven't found a Pro or Vertex.
I think wsm makes a .044 might be a .040 tho. Don't forget you have to clearance the aluminum below the sleeve

[LongShot]

As luck would have it after spending several hours, good hours however, rubbing on this 777S, I got a reply from a gentleman on a machinery board where I had posted a WTB for a bar. He had a nice used 777S and a LIKE NEW 777 with the late style toolbit head. This thing was in a vocational school and he figures maybe 10 hours total on it. Sad part was tool kit was not with it. I had to have both of them so they are on the way. The newer one is a time capsule. I wonder when Kwik Way bought them out? Also wonder if Kwik Way built the VN's after purchasing or dropped the boring bar line completely.Anyway, I have another 1-1/4" Blanchard ground plate that I think I will set the new bar up on and after doing a starter hole on the B-port bolt the bar on the plate and use it to bore its own hole to access the block. Will do the Chris Carson thing with block bolted to bottom of plate using head bolt holes. I had been unable to do that with the old set up as I did not trust my bar to give me the exact size hole that I set my tooling for. The tool did not fit in the bar tightly and I had to shim it. Taking it in and out and shimming each time hurt repeatability..I took very light cuts and miked the cylinder after each cut. Hoping the new set up will me more precise and I can trust the tool micrometer.

[LongShot]

well here's mine.flip table(ground) makes mounting the blocks a snap.332861332862 i made t.plates to fit xflows and mercs. im still working out the exact procedure for running it,but i got plenty of junk blocks to play with.so far its worked really well,just gotta put a new feed gear in the 777.

Skeeter are what are you using to pull the bar down onto your plate? Center bolt with a clamp up in the recess of the casting?

[Chaz]

Not sure about a FT model . And I have always really known a Van Norman as being a Winona .
Dayum shame that we can go from having every industrial factory in America having dozen's of them to where there was a mad scramble between Kwik-Way , Rottler and Winona to keep the portable boring bar alive in america. Only Rottler survived , and everything they make , is huge , heavy and has multi functions . Boring bar / line hone etc .
A friend of mine down in Royal Palm Beach fixes heavy equipment out in the field . He thinks nothing of hanging his bar up on the side of a bucket and boring out an oblong hole so he can make a new bushing and pin to put it back in service. I told him your gonna burn the gear box out of that fine piece of equipment layin it on it's side ... he said I guess you never looked at what direction the shafts went in them old Muncie's we use ta murder back in the day .. LOL
A machine shop I moonlight at , had a WVN surface grinder with either a big black rock or a toothed shell wheel. That was the straightest , smoothest overhead surfacing machine I have ever rolled the wheels on . What a gorgeous flawless finish it would lay down .. I would love to have it today as well as one of those huge belt sander's they do a poor boy cyl head finish with . Except for I'd use it for flattening out welded parts ... I've outgrown my 6 x 48 a long time ago ... :(

http://auburnautomachine.com/pics/machines/7.jpg

http://www.cavcosales.com/publishImages/SurfaceEquipment01CA1801-WVN-SM5000_Surfacer~~element50.JPG

http://artsautomotive.com/classic/HeadSurfacer-003.jpg

I guess I need to start hangin out at the LTOMC test center $380.00 borin bar .. go bouyyyyyy .. :D
Bout as close as I can get is ,
A few years back a guy called me and said he had a band saw he wanted $200 dollars for . No blades and needed new tires , but the wheels were tight and the motor run . So I gave him what he was asking . I bought a pair of those electric blue tires and had a dozen 9'3" blades made for it . I was kinda miffed at havin to buy custom blades , but it was big , old , ugly and made out of cast iron . I could push a piece of everything but stainless thru it as fast as i wanted . I figured I did OK . I was pretty shocked when one of the local restoration buffs offered me $2500 for it , even with the gaudy non period correct tires ... Seems a restored Walker / Turner saw will bring almost 5 K to the right collector ... who knew .. ;)

Old , American and a 220 volt plug ... the only way to fly .... :thumbsup:

[baja200merk]

Check ur phone in the am. Matt let me store a stone surfacer in my shop for the last 3 yrs I've never put power to it but the first head I do will be the ole 12v work truck. A buddy's warmed up fox body got a good look at the rear bumper the other night, I almost felt bad for the 200,000 mile head gasket @60psi. He said he was doing 115 when I drove by :D

[Tom Foley]

I use a 777s with a torque plate I made which has counter sink bolts and tha bar sits on it.

watch this video at the 25sec mark they show cyl distortion on a steel cummins block. Imagine how much an aluminum block distorts :eek:

http://youtu.be/Cx_DCUht-Xg

Love the Sunnen dial bore gauge , great tool that is graduated in .0001" increments and will make a fool of a bad machinist !! we used it at Orient Express .

[Chaz]

Check ur phone in the am. Matt let me store a stone surfacer in my shop for the last 3 yrs I've never put power to it but the first head I do will be the ole 12v work truck.

It was just after opening time at the LTOMC test center 12:22 am , so I understand why I didn't get the picture ... :D
You won't wanna give that baby up , once you get use to it ... ;)


Tom Foley,
Love the Sunnen dial bore gauge , great tool that is graduated in .0001" increments and will make a fool of a bad machinist !! we used it at Orient Express.



S/S Godfather , I think you are very fortunate to have worked with Jack O'Malley , the Godfather of Funnybike. ;)
I remember the black F/Bike he brought to Gainesville was faster that all but Trett and O-Brocta's T/Fuelers that year ... he told me Jon was leaving on "Instant boost" .. I was sorry to hear he passed .

http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/articlefiles/11_0527_Jack_DB_5.jpg

Those 2000 series Sunnen .0001 are worth a grand brand new and the stand is $1800
Not for the faint of wallet .. :eek:
I have a Mititoyo .0005 that is worth $500 and the same for the stand . Honestly , most of the time I use a $100 Fowler to get within a few thousandth's . Same base as the Mititoyo , but has much less expensive gauge . I figure it will hurt a bunch less if it get's bumped to the floor ... :o
We should all really be honing vertical , rather than laying on a bench for one of them gravity hone jobs and the results that come with it. :eek: I still say the biggest improvment to anyones game is to have a stand and a set of medium grit "bottom pressure stones. The big CV machines have a bottom dwell button that takes care of taper that just cant be duplicated by hand.








I think this conversation has exceeded the quality of the free standing parts we are dealing with . But hey lets take it to the next level .... :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr3NA9pPD3U

[LongShot]

I had Sunnen build me several sets of segmented stones. A touch finer at the top progressing over center and bottom segments I dwell at the bottom just a bit. Have gotten some really straight holes. I leave .003 to take out with the hone. Bump bump bump at the bottom1/2 Then full stroke and repeat.

[powerabout]

Who uses a profilometer to check what we hone?

[Chaz]

I had Sunnen build me several sets of segmented stones. A touch finer at the top progressing over center and bottom segments I dwell at the bottom just a bit. Have gotten some really straight holes. I leave .003 to take out with the hone. Bump bump bump at the bottom1/2 Then full stroke and repeat.

That's a pretty cool idea . I just don't think I could retrain my brain ( old dogs ) :D
Goodson has always treated me fair . 99% of the quality for 50% of the cost .
Makes it easier to feed it new stones than to say , I can get one more shot out of these old ones ... ;)


powerabout
Who uses a profilometer to check what we hone?

Well power , I guess if you find a guy who is obsessed with ring seal , only speaks of ultra thin rings and finds it mandatory to yank a motor off the dyno to tear it down and find the last two or three HP that never came around , then I'd say you found your man .... :smiletest:

[LongShot]

That's a pretty cool idea . I just don't think I could retrain my brain ( old dogs ) :D
Goodson has always treated me fair . 99% of the quality for 50% of the cost .
Makes it easier to feed it new stones than to say , I can get one more shot out of these old ones ... ;)

[/COLOR]

Well power , I guess if you find a guy who is obsessed with ring seal , only speaks of ultra thin rings and finds it mandatory to yank a motor off the dyno to tear it down and find the last two or three HP that never came around , then I'd say you found your man .... :smiletest:[/INDENT]
If the block has been honed enough to remove boring gouges, finish is plateau and using chrome rings in cast bore how slick do you like them? I have been asked by a popular engine assembler to mirror finish cast iron bores. I used cork stones wrapped in 600 grit paper after 500 grit stones to get the finish. What say you Mr. Chaz???

[Chaz]

Molly rings are pretty soft , they need at least a #280 stone to keep them from chipping . Couple of swipes with a #400 and their done , unless you want to brush em .
Iron , Chrome and He11fire tool steel rings are progressively harder . I cant see going any smoother than #220 unless it's to take a couple swipes with a #280 to knock some of the RPK down . And with He11fire's , I wouldn't even do that .
Corkbond is for doing those aluminum block's with no coating on them . Like the Vega's had :eek: and Mercedes does now.
Chrome bore's ... I never owned a 2.4 and it's been quite a while since I seen a Kawasaki 100cc G31M Green Streak .. :D

[LongShot]

334331334332334329

Just st uncrated this 777. Can't figure out how to rotate pic but the machine looks like it has not been used

[THP]

Dave, don't buy any tooling yet. I have a complete tool kit for a 777 or a 777s. I will look tomorrow. Along with Goodson replacable / indexable tool bits.

Troy

[baja200merk]

My 777S looks much different, we should trade them strait up :p That looks like a nice machine!

[Chaz]

Very nice find ... even if it is the wrong color .... :p ;) :D

[LongShot]

Dave, don't buy any tooling yet. I have a complete tool kit for a 777 or a 777s. I will look tomorrow. Along with Goodson replacable / indexable tool bits.

Troy
Troy it takes the .811 big tool bit holder. I have a tooling set for the early style 777s set. Just ordered a tool holder and mike from BEAM. I am still interested if you have tooling. I have 4 bars now and will be selling two of them. Chaz she be the right color!!

[THP]

Dave, I quickly looked this morning, this stuff is for a 777. I think I have everything , mic,bits , cat paws, in the original tin box. I scraped the bar. I'll take a better look tonight

Troy

[THP]

Dave, it says 777 in the kit and has the small bits .740

Troy

[LongShot]

Thanks for checking. That is an earlier 777. I have one of those but the newer 777 has the same head as the 777s.

[rock]

Dave....Just picked up a 944s. Is it an antique or worth cleaning up and using. It started up and feeds but that is as much as I know.

Rock

[LongShot]

Never owned one Randy. I will call you tomorrow. Definitely a good machine.

[LOSTINJ]

Can someone take a look this , Been on WSM website for 250 rebuild kit , from .010-.040 as WSM pistons measurements do not match up what is in Merc manual .

[LOSTINJ]

Spoke to Kevin from WSM and he looked into it and yes the piston measurements were incorrect and he will correct . BTW first class company and apparently the only place to buy pistons ! He asked me if I knew Chris Carson , never heard of him !

[skeeter91]

someone asked in this thread somewhere if there was a way to indicate the bore.i am setting up a 777 i bought last year and came up with this indicator holder i made from a short holder that came with the tool kit.i have a inserted blind cutter ,so i wont use this one.tight fit but works perfect,use a small mirror to see the back side.
336086336087336088

[LongShot]

Skeeter did you make your table? I am building a new table for the bar I just got. I need to cut a T slot in it. Was wondering if you cut yours?

[skeeter91]

yes i did .i use mastercam software where i work and based my table off a flip type design i saw in a shop that did Harley motors,works real good.1.5 in thick carbon steel plate that i had ground parallel.so i used a .500 endmill to do the thru slot to clearence for a 5/8-11 t-nut.ill post a couple more pics if i can find em.

[skeeter91]

i made the base that attaches the bar to the table and had it ground on both sides as well.uses two 5-8-11 t-slot nuts and studs so i can loosen them and slide from one hole to the next.
336111

[LongShot]

How is the bar mounted on the plate? Does the thickness of the riser plate, table and torque plate give you enough room to get a telescoping gauge down in the bore with the bar retracted? I always like to measure and have been using parallels. Would like to get away from that. The slot in the table itself is not a T slot but cut all the way through? Then you cut the ways for the T nut on the bottom of the table? I have to do this on a 9x42 B' port and it will be slow.

[skeeter91]

the riser plate i made has 6 1/4-20 socket heads that go where the original riser plate was(look under the table in my last pic,thats the original one).i use a inside caliper to check my dia. as i go,but im pretty sure a t-gauge would fit too.if i did it again,i would have made the riser out of 1in instead of 1/2 to gain a little more clearance.the slot in the table is cut through and counter-cut so i could use as short a stud as possible,but probably wasnt necessary,a single clearance slot through the plate would work fine.i hope this helps,ill try to get some more pics tonight if you like.

[LongShot]

Yup. More pics would be great.

[LongShot]

I see the Van Norman riserin the pic. I am not home right now but I have 4 VN BARS and none of them aredrilled and tapped to accept that riser nor do they have one installed. I will look and make sure. Why don't you put the VN riser back on the machine and bolt it all up with your plate? You can sweep the bar in with the bottom of your plate and if need be shim between the two and get it dead nuts. Mine is bolted to the plate right now and at 8" or so from center is within .001".

[skeeter91]

absolutely what i was going to try this week after i scrounge up some longer bolts:iagree:.my vn is actually a 777s i dont know if that is the difference but it takes the short .562 thick cutter as well ,different from the 777,was told it is a later design.

[skeeter91]

more pics,as requested336171336172336173336174

[LongShot]

I have 2 777 and 2 777s. The later 777 has the same tool as the 777s. None of the machines has a bolt on riser!!! Wish they did. That helps with measuring the hole as you go. My old bar had so much slop in the tool holder I had to use feeler gauge blades as shims to get the tool tight in the holder and it was not repeatable enough to just trust the tool setting mike. The newer one I just got, I hope, will be much better. Do you have the tooling to clamp the bar to a automotive block? Thanks for the pics. I have to sit in front of the mill for a while to get what I need with mine.

[skeeter91]

no factory cylinder clamp with mine.this machine is new to me so im still learning,but i knew what i wanted for some time before i bought it.ive wanted the ability to do all my own block work for a very long time.ive been a job shop machinist for over 20yrs and have done engine work as a hobby.let me know if i can be of any more help.

[LOSTINJ]

In process of building three 3.0 litre Powerheads built to 300 x specs . All 2002+ and the first is .015 now and going with .020 WSM kit . Fortunately a close friend just spent 25 k plus on new state of the art rottler computerized hone with diamond stones . I may sell my FN Quickway with table and all hardware as he has all modern equipment

[brussrude]

Dear All,

I'm considering selling my Kwik way FWII. Bought it new from Kwik way back in 2004 with Lots of tool holders .
Never abused,One operator. Will post pictures and price.
Reason for selling is that I just bought a Comec ACF 200 boring mill and won't be using the Kwik way any longer

Bruss

[LongShot]

Looking for clamping foot, tee handle and bar for a 777 or 777s. Let me know if you have one or run across one. I have some 777 replaceable offset toolholders for trade.