View Full Version : New 200 XS 2.5 Consumer Outboard
LongShot
10-20-2015, 07:53 PM
After much discussion with Darris Allison, and many owners of lightweight, performance hulls, I am soliciting help to contact:
Kevin Skiba
National Sales Manager
Mercury Racing
kevin.skiba@mercmarine.com
The following is the letter I have sent to Kevin. Please feel free to cut, pasteand add your own experience and needs.
Dear Kevin,
I am writing this message in regard to the availability of a suitable outboard package for high performance, lightweight hulls. I have been involved in racing, cruising and fishing out of Allison boats for the last 25 years. To this point I have owned 35 of the boats and currently have six. I interact on a regular basis with owners of Allison boats as well as many other owners of similar style and weight hulls. Through rally's, races, internet forums and social media there is a common theme. Power for the type of boats we own is non-existent in a production platform. Most of us rely on rebuilt/used 2.5 Mercury high-performance models. The used parts that are available for that motor are all now at least 10 years old and many of the hard parts are NLA from Mercury. In short, there are thousands of hulls across the country with no real option for re-powering. These boats were built with improved design and materials and will be around for many years. My current fleet consists of boats that are 17-28 years old that still look like new. So demand for power options will exist for years to come.
The folks that are looking at options to power hulls in the 18-21 foot, 800-1 (tel:800-1000)400 pound range have changed since I owned my first boat. In 1990 power was king at the expense of durability and reliability. Sixteen amp charging systems were the norm and modifying parts and pieces like motor mounts, gearcases, etc was expected. Today's boater wants a reliable package capable of pushing their boat into the 90 mph range that they can bolt on and go. They want a warranty and they want to be able to return to their dealer for service and parts. High performance stereo systems and electronics, and the charging system to power them, are just as important as top speed.
It is my educated opinion that all the parts and pieces for such an outboard currently exist in the Mercury line up. We need a package offered with a 15" or 20" mid, Sportmaster gearcase in 1.75 or 1.87 ratio, solid motor mount , 2.5 liter, 200-225 horsepower direct injected outboard motor. It needs to be available from any Mercury dealership and it needs to weigh in at no more than 435 pounds. It also needs to come with a minimum of a one year warranty. The price of that motor needs to be aligned with the same horsepower now offered in the 3.0 liter line-up. I did own a 2013 Gen 2 200XS race motor and it was very close to what we need. Availability and price for that package put it at a disadvantage. It is perplexing when you compare that to the power, warranty and availability of a 250 XS Sport. That package has all the attributes we are seeking except the weight of the 3.0 liter motor makes it useless for our hulls.
Sincerely,
Dave Hensley
Greg G
10-20-2015, 08:21 PM
That is a well constructed letter. Do you expect a response? At the end of the day all Merc has to do is take the current 200XS ROS 2.5 SS with a Sporty and offer a warranty and folks would buy it. I don't even know if having the 20" would matter all that much but that is just my opinion.
LongShot
10-20-2015, 08:29 PM
Darris says it is his pick for the XB21. Needs a 20". Many of the STV guys need 20". The motors could be around 230HP with the 15% they are allowed over advertised hp. At $15K-$16K they would sell
Greg G
10-20-2015, 08:38 PM
I don't think it would fly at Merc for 16 but I bet if they priced it at $19,900 with a 2 year warranty people would be happy to pay it provided they had a choice of both 20" and 15" as you mention.
LongShot
10-20-2015, 08:54 PM
250XS Sport with Sportmaster is $15,800 at Jaco's. Solid motor mounts and a years warranty, at least. As for your question about expecting a response, no. Darris had talked to the guy at IBEX and wanted me too fly the idea to see if any of the folks that complain about not having a choice of motors to re-power their boats would respond. I think it is a good idea whether they do or not. I can build motors out of my junk pile but you wonder about how many people sit on the sideline that would like to own a nice 15 year old STV, Allison, whatever but don't have the stomach for a 100 hour rebuild on a 15 year old motor. Or maybe a new XB 2002 but want to run mid 90's if they plunk down $31K for a boat.
xb03fs
10-20-2015, 08:59 PM
It cannot be priced more than the 250 xs is 265/270 at the prop unless the power is closer.
ProComp
10-20-2015, 10:19 PM
They pretty much had this exact motor in 2005 as I just had one. Alien Cowl, 20" bass mid, solid mounts, sportmaster. Came with warranty. Just bring it back..............
Great idea, good luck.
xb03fs
10-20-2015, 10:51 PM
Was the 2.5 xs in 2005 the strongest one made?
Onetime
10-20-2015, 10:56 PM
I think you're off on pricing estimate. The new non-warranties 200XS ROS is $23,000 to $25,000. Don't think a consumer one with an added warranty would be any cheaper then the ROS.
JMO
Greg G
10-20-2015, 11:23 PM
They pretty much had this exact motor in 2005 as I just had one. Alien Cowl, 20" bass mid, solid mounts, sportmaster. Came with warranty. Just bring it back..............
Great idea, good luck.
I believe that you are referring to the 2.5XS correct? If that is what you are commenting on they were only built for one year, 2005. Different motor than the 200XS ROS.
Greg G
10-20-2015, 11:25 PM
I think you're off on pricing estimate. The new non-warranties 200XS ROS is $23,000 to $25,000. Don't think a consumer one with an added warranty would be any cheaper then the ROS.
JMO
Merc would have to show some love and price the 200XS ROS at $19,900 with 2 year warranty. At $25k ................. I'm out.
powerabout
10-21-2015, 02:27 AM
200xs ssm is the EU emission compliant UIM F2 engine, well the only one legal for sale over there anyway.
LongShot
10-21-2015, 07:28 AM
I think you're off on pricing estimate. The new non-warranties 200XS ROS is $23,000 to $25,000. Don't think a consumer one with an added warranty would be any cheaper then the ROS.
JMO
The pricing is requested to be comparable to the "Race" version 250 XS Sport at $16k.
Greg G
10-21-2015, 07:37 AM
If you can't use the 100lb heavier 250XS on a lot of the boats that you guys are mentioning, wouldn't you be willing to pay $19,900 to get the lightweight (about 240hp) 200XS. Or put another way, your paying more money to get less weight and two years of warranty.
You got to dangle some extra margin in front of Mother Merc to even get there attention I would think.
xb03fs
10-21-2015, 08:37 AM
If you can't use the 100lb heavier 250XS on a lot of the boats that you guys are mentioning, wouldn't you be willing to pay $19,900 to get the lightweight (about 240hp) 200XS. Or put another way, your paying more money to get less weight and two years of warranty.
You got to dangle some extra margin in front of Mother Merc to even get there attention I would think.
What about have both a 200 and 225 so they can have a 230 ish and a 245 ish version...so legally they can keep the overseas racing motors compliant and make us happy hear. Just do it through ECU rev limit so it doesn't cost them anymore and they can pocket an extra $1000 on the 225 version. maybe make the 200 make 230 HP 6650 rpm rev limit and the 225 make 245 @6850 rpms rev limit
Michael J Giesler
10-21-2015, 10:03 AM
The new gen 2 200 ros makes between 238-242 horsepower as it sits right now it has plenty of power
Greg G
10-21-2015, 10:14 AM
What about have both a 200 and 225 so they can have a 230 ish and a 245 ish version...so legally they can keep the overseas racing motors compliant and make us happy hear. Just do it through ECU rev limit so it doesn't cost them anymore and they can pocket an extra $1000 on the 225 version. maybe make the 200 make 230 HP 6650 rpm rev limit and the 225 make 245 @6850 rpms rev limit
That is not a bad idea. It could all be done via the ECU.
Greg G
10-21-2015, 10:16 AM
The new gen 2 200 ros makes between 238-242 horsepower as it sits right now it has plenty of power
Michael, what does the 2015 Gen 2 200XS ROS SS weigh exactly, do you happen to know? And what year did the Gen 2 configuration start production?
JWTjr.
10-21-2015, 10:24 AM
Heaps of praise for what you are trying to do. I have my doubts that Mercury will respond at all, given their behavior toward and position on our little slice of the market over the past 10 years. Their direction has been quite clear since the early 2000s. While a $16k price tag on an engine made from existing parts seems reasonable to most, I doubt (but I hope) it will to Merc. As someone said, it's now all about $30k 400R 635-lb. four strokes for the well-heeled angler market. "Little 2-strokes" are not cool anymore (cue sad music theme).
xb03fs
10-21-2015, 10:35 AM
I hope Mercury will listen. My boat is 3 liter capable but I am willing to give up some topend (probably 5-10 mph vs 250XS) for the better handling, holeshot and fuel economy of the 2.5 Liter if it is priced right with warranty.
Straight up , what's wrong with a 20" 200-250 HO RUDE? Too heavy, slow , lu ???
outasite
10-21-2015, 11:57 AM
Would this motor you speak of, be able to meet currant and short term emissions? I thought that was the kiss of death for the two strokes.
xb03fs
10-21-2015, 12:33 PM
Would this motor you speak of, be able to meet currant and short term emissions? I thought that was the kiss of death for the two strokes.
Yes, it would be an opti
sumfast
10-21-2015, 01:01 PM
Jacos Marine has the 200XS ROS 15" listed last year on there website for $16,500 I called them two weeks ago and she said they had went up in price $4500. That's crazy, anyway nice letter I'm curious to hear the response will be C:\Users\dhiggs\Documents\Videos\DSC_0967.JPG330199
bigboy
10-21-2015, 04:17 PM
Dont think You Will get their attention with this email. Now if you would make a list of all the potential buyers (fe 50) and multiply that with 20k for each motor and the total is 1million dollar than you might get their attention! Good luck!
powerabout
10-21-2015, 06:39 PM
Would this motor you speak of, be able to meet currant and short term emissions? I thought that was the kiss of death for the two strokes.
DFI outboards will meet emission regs for years to come as they are cleaner than the current 4 strokes especially at low speed.
Todd D
10-21-2015, 09:49 PM
The 2.5xs built in 2005 is the same motor as todays current gen 2 200xs with a couple small changes.
The crank is splined for a 3L driveshaft, the reed plate has runners that extend forward into the horn and the ecu has a WOT of 6750. (gen 2 200xs ROS is 7,000 and the SST is 8,000)
I don't think that you'll ever come close to the pricing you want as dealer cost on the current 200xs is 20K ! :eek:
I can't imagine that Mercury cares about us because they just blew off the twin engine cats that race offshore in both the SBI and XCat. SBI did testing all season with these motors on a Doug Wright and Mercury couldn't make them readily available as required by the class rules. Next season SBI will be adding a 300xs option to the class to run with the 280's.
powerabout
10-21-2015, 11:23 PM
Nice opening there for a foreign engine builder to fill the gap, would be all PR not profit but it would put them on the map
Greg G
10-22-2015, 06:45 AM
The 2.5xs built in 2005 is the same motor as todays current gen 2 200xs with a couple small changes. The crank is splined for a 3L driveshaft, the reed plate has runners that extend forward into the horn and the ecu has a WOT of 6750. (gen 2 200xs ROS is 7,000 and the SST is 8,000)
Great info, did not know that. 245hp, 7,000rpm, and 439 pounds sounds like the perfect fit for the "little guys".
Todd D
10-22-2015, 06:59 AM
I would really like to know what HP one makes at 8000rpms.
Since the 2.5xs supposedly made 225 @ 6750 and the rating of the Ros is 240 @ 7000....
powerabout
10-22-2015, 07:13 AM
I would really like to know what HP one makes at 8000rpms.
Since the 2.5xs supposedly made 225 @ 6750 and the rating of the Ros is 240 @ 7000....
8000 is just over rev for tunnel boats
Todd D
10-22-2015, 07:51 AM
does anyone remember what the dyno curve looks like on a 225 Promax? Where does it stop making power? 7600/7800.....
These xs blocks has the same 3" exhaust chest.
Greg G
10-22-2015, 08:53 AM
does anyone remember what the dyno curve looks like on a 225 Promax? Where does it stop making power? 7600/7800. These xs blocks has the same 3" exhaust chest.
I would have to dig up my Promax dyno sheets to show that. I will try and find them later. Btw, I believe you are low on the 2.5XS ponies. I thought that a couple of guys put the 2005 on the dyno and they were more than 225hp. In 2005 you could also buy a 225X if I remember correctly and I could have swore that the 2.5XS Opti DFI powerhead was considered to be as strong as the 225X EFI powerhead. What a great year 2005 must have been, you could buy a new 280, or a new 225X, or a new 2.5XS.
Bullet89
10-22-2015, 09:02 AM
I was at Merc school earlier this year and asked how much longer they were going to build Optimax engines. They said until the EPA requires them to install catalytic converters on outboards. The new non-Verado 150-200 is meant to be the replacement but they are going to build them as long as they can. They said that the new four strokes are ready to have a converter bolted right on. I think Mercury's view on it is that it would not be profitable because it would only be short term (1-2 years) at best. The EPA is the enemy of the high performance outboards. It has been rumored that 2016 is the last year for the Optimax.
whipper
10-23-2015, 04:00 AM
Some one with the know how and I know there's lots on hear that can. Needs to make new billet 2.5 blocks the same as the 225PM and have them made to accommodate the newer electronics to 8000 rpm in about a S3000 please. You can call it vintage still as it would be a replica engine to beat the epa. Car guys do that all the time. its no different than owning a 2000 promax then those epa rules do not apply.
My 96 225 PM pulls till about 7500rpm then i can notice it stop pulling after that. You can 3D print and machine billet blocks nowadays on cad. http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g266/fmerkl/wilksblock.jpg
Todd D
10-23-2015, 08:19 AM
Someone is building billet 2.5 blocks.
It was debuted at jasper.
My guess it's gonna be a million $....... :(
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LongShot
10-23-2015, 08:29 AM
Someone is building billet 2.5 blocks.
It was debuted at jasper.
My guess it's gonna be a million $....... :(
330267330266330266330266
It's going to be expensive. Relatively few units will be sold and I am sure developmental costs are astronomical. Matthew is to be commended for his efforts. Casting them would be much, much cheaper.
Todd D
10-23-2015, 08:48 AM
I hear that he used the factory front half......?
Greg G
10-23-2015, 09:05 AM
does anyone remember what the dyno curve looks like on a 225 Promax? Where does it stop making power? 7600/7800.....
Here is the Dyno printouts on my 225 Promax. Triple click on it to expand fully. These are two separate runs done several hours apart but on the same day.
xb03fs
10-23-2015, 10:42 AM
anyone have one on a 200 EFI up to 6800? Curious how much quicker torque start dropping. I feel a nociatble loss at 6200 and a more dramatic lose at 6400 and its really tough to turn past 6800 on my 200 EFI....my "speed prop" still turns 6800 on my hull solo.
dogeatdog
10-23-2015, 11:24 AM
I just sold my 2005 2.5XS and I would guess it had about 240 hp. It pulled easily to the limiter and would pull more if it could. Great motor, got 6.8 mpg and was easy on the oil and fuel bill. Would like to see this in a 15 inch version!
Greg G
10-23-2015, 11:31 AM
Dont think You Will get their attention with this email. Now if you would make a list of all the potential buyers and multiply that with 20k for each motor and the total is 1 million dollar than you might get their attention! Good luck!
I'd make it easy for Mother Merc. You can have any 200XS you want for $19,900.
20" - Same Price
15" - Same Price
ROS Clamp Bracket - Same Price
Lighter Fishin Bracket - Same price
Sportmaster only. 1.87 only. Factory Torq tamer and blow out ring included.
Like Mr. Ford said, you can have any color you want as long as it's black and you got the jack!
whipper
10-23-2015, 11:39 AM
Someone is building billet 2.5 blocks.
It was debuted at jasper.
My guess it's gonna be a million $....... :(
330267330266330266330266
I would think useing a cnc to machine a block would be less than half the cost of casting one? Foundry costs are what's expensive i was told. Of course the cnc isnt cheep but Aluminium crate engines are and the 2.5 is much less material than a BB v8. ?
JCSmile
10-23-2015, 12:33 PM
A little off topic, but what do ya'll think about a high performance 4-stroke. The fourstrokes are taking over dirtbikes and just about everything else. I heard that merc's current 115's are lighter than the 2 stroke opti's? Those new 150's are supposed to be torque monsters. Would like to see one go on a diet down to 430#, add a super charger, and let her rip. F1 cars and street bikes are spinning 12000, maybe merc will start playing with that.
Todd D
10-23-2015, 03:04 PM
Here is the Dyno printouts on my 225 Promax. Triple click on it to expand fully. These are two separate runs done several hours apart but on the same day.
I'd like to see results high in the rpm curve say upto 8200!
Todd D
10-23-2015, 03:05 PM
I would think useing a cnc to machine a block would be less than half the cost of casting one? Foundry costs are what's expensive i was told. Of course the cnc isnt cheep but Aluminium crate engines are and the 2.5 is much less material than a BB v8. ?
The cost of billet is way more than cast in my experience. The expensive part about casting is the molds.
Todd D
10-23-2015, 03:09 PM
A little off topic, but what do ya'll think about a high performance 4-stroke. The fourstrokes are taking over dirtbikes and just about everything else. I heard that merc's current 115's are lighter than the 2 stroke opti's? Those new 150's are supposed to be torque monsters. Would like to see one go on a diet down to 430#, add a super charger, and let her rip. F1 cars and street bikes are spinning 12000, maybe merc will start playing with that.
They have it's called a verado except the weight is unacceptable. The old 350 and the new 400 are pretty good power plants. Mercury and the Dubai based Victory team built a 15" version of the 350 but the cost for Xcat race teams was $70,000 for a pair. Buy one and sell it at consumer price equals $40k easily......
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330311
LongShot
10-25-2015, 09:53 AM
As soon as I try a 250XS on a 15" with 2.5 Sportmaster I am going to look hard at the 115 HP 2.1 liter 4-stroke. Need to adapt it to a 15" or 12" 2.5 mid so the only development work is on the powerhead. Spray it first to see if there is potential. One thing Mercury has done over the years is over engineer rods and cranks. I have heard the powerhead is actually a Yamaha. If it takes a 100-150 shot of nitrous then start looking at porting, polishing, compression, exhaust mods, cam regrind. Probably have to adapt a different ECM as I have no idea if anyone out there is messing with whatever comes on them stock. That side of it is where I will need help. The rest of it is just old school hot rodder stuff. A valve train without valve springs would allow a little motor like that to buzz 15,000 to 16,000 rpms.
The new 150 HP 4-stroke is 3.0 Liters!! The price for the motor is right at $10K!!! And a 3-year warranty. Pump the brakes and make a U-turn?? I use my XTB 21 for cruising and fishing. 455 pounds is not much heavier than the ProMax I have on it now and if I went to lithium batteries instead of the 70 pound monsters I have in it now I am lighter than I am now. Wondering if these motors take flo-torq props? If I could bolt this on the XTB and run 70 mph I would get one just to get familiar with the 4-stroke. Anybody familiar with what propshaft they used in these?
Greg G
10-25-2015, 10:20 AM
I would think useing a cnc to machine a block would be less than half the cost of casting one? Foundry costs are what's expensive i was told. Of course the cnc isnt cheep but Aluminium crate engines are and the 2.5 is much less material than a BB v8. ?
Why bother with this billet nonsense? Merc has all of it done and the tooling paid for on the 2.5. You just have to convince them that $19,900 is worth two years of warranty. I think that if they put that together they would sell 439lb 245hp motors (for $20k) like proverbial hot cakes. They MUST give the warranty for two years though.
bep078
10-25-2015, 12:06 PM
Here in Europe, we Race a 23ft Batboat and have used both a Stock 2013 200XS Gen 2 15" with 2:1 Sportmaster and a Stock Mercury 250 XS 20" with a 1.75:1 Sportmaster. The boat weighs 2120 lbs fueled and ready to race excluding driver/co-driver. The 250XS is about 10 MPH faster top end with the same 30" Propeller (this prop was fastest on both motors so I'm comparing apples to apples) We found that the 200XS makes maximum power at around 6700 rpm whilst the 250 XS at around the 6k mark. We tried spinning the 200XS at 7000rpm with an identical make prop with a lower pitch but the boat will loose about 2-3 mph top end. We concluded that the torque of the 3.0L 250XS is noticeably greater than that of the 200XS. Also the 200XS is VERY weight sensitive as opposed to the 250XS. I also know of another two identical 22ft boats with a 200XS and the other with a 250XS. The 200XS boat weighs 400 lbs less then the 250 XS boat and their top speeds are nearly identical..
Greg G
10-25-2015, 01:16 PM
Here in Europe, we Race a 23ft Batboat and have used both a Stock 2013 200XS Gen 2 15" with 2:1 Sportmaster and a Stock Mercury 250 XS 20" with a 1.75:1 Sportmaster. The boat weighs 2120 lbs fueled and ready to race excluding driver/co-driver. The 250XS is about 10 MPH faster top end with the same 30" Propeller (this prop was fastest on both motors so I'm comparing apples to apples) We found that the 200XS makes maximum power at around 6700 rpm whilst the 250 XS at around the 6k mark. We tried spinning the 200XS at 7000rpm with an identical make prop with a lower pitch but the boat will loose about 2-3 mph top end. We concluded that the torque of the 3.0L 250XS is noticeably greater than that of the 200XS. Also the 200XS is VERY weight sensitive as opposed to the 250XS. I also know of another two identical 22ft boats with a 200XS and the other with a 250XS. The 200XS boat weighs 400 lbs less then the 250 XS boat and their top speeds are nearly identical..
Great information. Thanks for the post! Interesting that the 200XS Gen 2 is making max power at 6700 as compared to my Promax 225 making max power of 246hp at 6400rpm. I know that some of you guys in EMEA have dyno'd the Gen 2 motors. Do you happen to know any horsepower stats on it by chance?
JCSmile
10-25-2015, 01:31 PM
Wondering if these motors take flo-torq props? If I could bolt this on the XTB and run 70 mph I would get one just to get familiar with the 4-stroke. Anybody familiar with what propshaft they used in these?
Couldn't tell ya if they are the same size as like sportmaster's and the like but I worked at a Lund dealership this summer and we sold probably 30 of those new 150's. Supposed to be torque monsters. We ran Flo torque hubs on all of them.
LongShot
10-25-2015, 01:51 PM
Couldn't tell ya if they are the same size as like sportmaster's and the like but I worked at a Lund dealership this summer and we sold probably 30 of those new 150's. Supposed to be torque monsters. We ran Flo torque hubs on all of them.
Any consistent problems with the 150's??
hsbob
10-25-2015, 03:28 PM
a lot to be said. the 200xs was't that more power full as compared to the 200efi or carb. they were very more fuel efficient then any 2.5 motors. the smart craft recored mpg was 7.4 max for either a allison or a hydrostream voyager. i have a 2004 200xs and the only issue was alenator. that's good value for a 11 yr old motor. i wish i had bought the 2.5sx [so it was avaliable in 2004], it was a 2.5 on a 3.0 lower unit.
i fully support the re issuing of either motor sorry for spelling
bep078
10-25-2015, 04:32 PM
Great information. Thanks for the post! Interesting that the 200XS Gen 2 is making max power at 6700 as compared to my Promax 225 making max power of 246hp at 6400rpm. I know that some of you guys in EMEA have dyno'd the Gen 2 motors. Do you happen to know any horsepower stats on it by chance?
Don't know actual power levels. But I have seen them rated at 225 hp by Mercury in the small decal on the saddle bracket next to the serial number. Regarding max power, it could be less at then 6700 rpm however the boat ran quickest at those rpm levels... The fuel efficiency is amazing tho.. About 25% less fuel consumption compared to the 3 liter 250XS.
JCSmile
10-25-2015, 06:41 PM
Any consistent problems with the 150's??
Unfortunately here in Iowa we don't see people run these motors a ton so the amount of high hour 150's in the shop was pretty low. We had a few come through with cooling troubles, but other than that I didn't see any major issues. Definitely would be helpful to find somebody who has seen them with high hours to see if them turn into time bombs. The 200xs really would be the ticket, but as I expect to see merc drift toward four strokes, I really would like to see their performance dept. fool around with these. Any idea what the torque curves are like on a 4-stoke and if you could spin them 10k plus on a boat? Seems to be working in other motor sports, but no gear box creates a little different situation.
Greg G
10-25-2015, 06:54 PM
a lot to be said. the 200xs was't that more power full as compared to the 200efi or carb. they were very more fuel efficient then any 2.5 motors. the smart craft recored mpg was 7.4 max for either a allison or a hydrostream voyager. i have a 2004 200xs and the only issue was alenator. that's good value for a 11 yr old motor. i wish i had bought the 2.5sx [so it was avaliable in 2004], it was a 2.5 on a 3.0 lower unit.
i fully support the re issuing of either motor sorry for spelling
I may be mixing folks up but aren't you the guy who had identical boats, one with a Gen 1 200XS and one with a 200 EFI? I believe you are correct on the Gen 1 being a bit low on the power. Several guys over the years have had them and while they are/were great motors on many levels if I remember correctly they made 210hp.
LongShot
10-25-2015, 07:09 PM
Unfortunately here in Iowa we don't see people run these motors a ton so the amount of high hour 150's in the shop was pretty low. We had a few come through with cooling troubles, but other than that I didn't see any major issues. Definitely would be helpful to find somebody who has seen them with high hours to see if them turn into time bombs. The 200xs really would be the ticket, but as I expect to see merc drift toward four strokes, I really would like to see their performance dept. fool around with these. Any idea what the torque curves are like on a 4-stoke and if you could spin them 10k plus on a boat? Seems to be working in other motor sports, but no gear box creates a little different situation.
JC I like your thinking. I am just wondering what the limitations of the motor are. If you took one and went through all the experimental stuff that very first 150 HP V-6 two stroke went through I think the outcome would be jaw dropping. I am calling Jaco in the morning to find out a few details on driveshaft spline, motor mount configuration and propshaft size. I want one.
JCSmile
10-25-2015, 08:56 PM
JC I like your thinking. I am just wondering what the limitations of the motor are. If you took one and went through all the experimental stuff that very first 150 HP V-6 two stroke went through I think the outcome would be jaw dropping. I am calling Jaco in the morning to find out a few details on driveshaft spline, motor mount configuration and propshaft size. I want one.
I'm sure you know better than I do, but from what I've seen mercury generally detunes their engines! Glad to hear you are interested in doing some research. Wouldn't surprise me if mercury left a lot of horsepower to be gained. I think the best part about them is their affordability. My brother is a senior at Iowa State in electrical engineering so I'm trying to get him into learning how these ECU's tick. In this day in age, a lot of performance can be tinkered with in that department. Like I said, I don't want to see the 2 stroke go away, but half the fun of high performance is trying new things. Seeing a 300 horse 450# four-stroke on the back of an Allison spinning 10k with a super charger whining would be pretty cool if you ask me. Maybe not practical at this point (merc probably has a lot of research to do), but if it's economical and can keep these boats around, I'm all for it.
CNC_Guy
10-25-2015, 09:18 PM
I'm sure you know better than I do, but from what I've seen mercury generally detunes their engines! Glad to hear you are interested in doing some research. Wouldn't surprise me if mercury left a lot of horsepower to be gained. I think the best part about them is their affordability. My brother is a senior at Iowa State in electrical engineering so I'm trying to get him into learning how these ECU's tick. In this day in age, a lot of performance can be tinkered with in that department. Like I said, I don't want to see the 2 stroke go away, but half the fun of high performance is trying new things. Seeing a 300 horse 450# four-stroke on the back of an Allison spinning 10k with a super charger whining would be pretty cool if you ask me. Maybe not practical at this point (merc probably has a lot of research to do), but if it's economical and can keep these boats around, I'm all for it.
I'm old school, but I agree that would be cool.
LongShot
10-26-2015, 07:10 AM
I'm old school, but I agree that would be cool.
THe thing about it there is more being done right now with 4-cylinder inline 4-strokes than all two strokes put together. Hardest thing to do in any adventure is getting started. I think 400 pounds would be easily achieved. Need to know more about gearcases, crank splines, propshaft splines and powerhead bolt patterns. Also wondering how the exhaust dumps and if it has an exhaust manifold. Guessing yes and guessing it is water jacketed..
CNC_Guy
10-26-2015, 06:20 PM
Plus you can tap aftermarket car motor technology (gasp)!
powerabout
10-26-2015, 06:34 PM
high performance 4 strokes have been tried as outboards and without boost they wont pull the skin off a rice pudding
Looks at the 2 examples in F1 the 2 strokes lapped the 4 strokes on the first lap.
( but they looked so good on the dyno)
So what we are saying is a modern 4 stroke, with variable cam timing, with 4 valve head, with boost with 10 speed gearbox is only as good as a 2 stroke?
damn that advanced!!
Michael J Giesler
10-26-2015, 08:16 PM
Lets get back on track two stroke and smoke because four stroke is a joke lol
LongShot
10-26-2015, 08:38 PM
I am hoarding 2.5's.......but not holding my breath for anything new. Still might try a 4 stroke on my XTB21. The prices are right. Again, how do the jet ski 4-strokes compare to two strokes?
xb03fs
10-26-2015, 08:52 PM
If i buy a 3 liter you interested in a 200. It has some good extras like an svs a nass fiberglass cowl and a pair of 7500 limited boxes
powerabout
10-26-2015, 11:35 PM
I am hoarding 2.5's.......but not holding my breath for anything new. Still might try a 4 stroke on my XTB21. The prices are right. Again, how do the jet ski 4-strokes compare to two strokes?
jet ski gets away with it like a sled as they dont get the load an outboard prop does
hence production sled 2 strokes can make more HP/CI than an outboard
Michael J Giesler
12-18-2015, 01:24 PM
Update mercury 200 ros in the box $20,000 and drop on powerheads $10,000
blacktruck
02-06-2016, 08:56 PM
The 175 Pro XS is close, it shares many parts from the previous 200 XS. It just needs "real" solid mounts, maybe lightened up a bit, sport m lower etc. Not a stretch. Offered in a 200 and 225 version, or maybe just a 225 version. I agree though, there is a gap in the market between new 4 strokes and the large 2 strokes. Even 125's are close in weight to some of the old 2.5's.
stv1991
02-07-2016, 10:15 AM
The Pro XS 175 is close to what we need but just not quite enough. Not really any mods available to get it there either. If Merc pulled 200 or 225hp from this motor, I'd be all over it. Highly unlikely for that to happen.
Greg G
02-07-2016, 10:52 AM
Update mercury 200 ros in the box $20,000 and drop on powerheads $10,000
The Pro XS 175 is close to what we need but just not quite enough. Not really any mods available to get it there either. If Merc pulled 200 or 225hp from this motor, I'd be all over it. Highly unlikely for that to happen.
Seeing as you can still buy a 2016 non-warranty 200XS with a Sporty for $20,000 what does a 175XS Pro with a Spormaster cost as a point of comparison?
blacktruck
02-07-2016, 01:11 PM
Seeing as you can still buy a 2016 non-warranty 200XS with a Sporty for $20,000 what does a 175XS Pro with a Spormaster cost as a point of comparison?
For Merc, it wouldn't probably cost much more, the regular gearcase costs them X, maybe a tiny bit more for them to manufacture the sport??? I don't believe it is available from the factory.
I wonder what the ECU in the 175 has left for more power. I heard the dyno is at 196hp.
I agree a 225 2.5 from mercury racing would be awesome but would probably canabalize the 3.0 225 Pro XS. It's weird how the 200 Pro XSis a 3.0, just too heavy for that power range.
stv1991
02-07-2016, 02:12 PM
10% over would be about 191hp. I talked to the local Mercury HP dealer and you cannot order the 175 Pro XS with the Sporty. However, he would be willing to cut a deal on the swap to the Sporty that didn't add too much to the price and both would be warrantied. However, I keep going back to the fact that the 175 is probably a good motor but just a bit too anemic for my needs. I don't want to strap a big block on my boat. I need a minimum of 200 but preferably 225 to push my tunnel thru the hop zone quickly.
The 200XS ROS is roughly equivalent to the old Pro Max 225's in performance but the fuel economy is leaps and bounds better. You could do the 175 Pro XS with the Sporty swap for in the 12-ish range or $20K+ for the XS ROS. The ROS has better performance but the 175 Pro XS has the warranty.
blacktruck
02-07-2016, 02:24 PM
10% over would be about 191hp. I talked to the local Mercury HP dealer and you cannot order the 175 Pro XS with the Sporty. However, he would be willing to cut a deal on the swap to the Sporty that didn't add too much to the price and both would be warrantied. However, I keep going back to the fact that the 175 is probably a good motor but just a bit too anemic for my needs. I don't want to strap a big block on my boat. I need a minimum of 200 but preferably 225 to push my tunnel thru the hop zone quickly.
The 200XS ROS is roughly equivalent to the old Pro Max 225's in performance but the fuel economy is leaps and bounds better. You could do the 175 Pro XS with the Sporty swap for in the 12-ish range or $20K+ for the XS ROS. The ROS has better performance but the 175 Pro XS has the warranty.
Ya it's a catch 22. I wonder if an online petition presented to Mercury Racing would help?? I know car companies have brought certain cars to markets they weren't planning on because of that. Or maybe they have a new product up their sleeve in the near future addressing the void??
stv1991
02-07-2016, 02:34 PM
Simon Motorsports can reprogram the ECU to a higher rpm but the HP gain is basically nothing and you void the warranty.
Greg G
02-07-2016, 04:15 PM
10% over would be about 191hp. The 200XS ROS is roughly equivalent to the old Pro Max 225's in performance but the fuel economy is leaps and bounds better. You could do the 175 Pro XS with the Sporty swap for in the 12-ish range or $20K+ for the XS ROS. The ROS has better performance but the 175 Pro XS has the warranty.
Is Mercury dumb as a rock? Why would they not sell a 175 Pro XS with a matching Sporty? That's incredible. Second point is are you sure you can get a 175 with a Sporty and full warranty for $13k? Last point and probably most important is has a Pro XS even been put on a good dyno? I'd want to see the printout to gain some comfort as to what it is putting out. I'm sure a dyno print is out there somewhere. I had my 2000 Promax 225 dyno'd before I sold it and it turned out 244-247hp on multiple pulls. I'd bet a new 2.5 Opti 200XS ROS makes exactly the same.
jphii
02-07-2016, 04:56 PM
Is Mercury dumb as a rock? Why would they not sell a 175 Pro XS with a matching Sporty? That's incredible. Second point is are you sure you can get a 175 with a Sporty and full warranty for $13k? Last point and probably most important is has a Pro XS even been put on a good dyno? I'd want to see the printout to gain some comfort as to what it is putting out. I'm sure a dyno print is out there somewhere. I had my 2000 Promax 225 dyno'd before I sold it and it turned out 244-247hp on multiple pulls. I'd bet a new 2.5 Opti 200XS ROS makes exactly the same.
Probably:
336426
stv1991
02-07-2016, 04:59 PM
Yes on the 175 Pro XS for under $13K with the Sporty and full warranty. This is something this dealer would offer. He would remove the standard lower unit, install a new Sportmaster, since they are both new and he would install the Sportmaster and he'd honor the warranty. You'd pay the difference between the standard lower unit and the Sportmaster. Mercury does not offer the Sportmaster as an option for this motor as I checked in detail this past fall. The above deal was as close as you could get if you want the Sporty as an option.
stv1991
02-07-2016, 05:01 PM
I spoke with Jaco's this past fall as well. They would not do the Sportmaster upgrade and honor the warranty. Additionally, Jaco's didn't have the best price either.
Michael J Giesler
02-07-2016, 06:01 PM
What i still don't get is two years ago 200 ros was 16,500 now it's 20,000 nothing has changed everyone knows i have tried over and over again to get mercury racing to do something for us and i wouldn't say i have given up but i am close
blacktruck
02-07-2016, 06:25 PM
What i still don't get is two years ago 200 ros was 16,500 now it's 20,000 nothing has changed everyone knows i have tried over and over again to get mercury racing to do something for us and i wouldn't say i have given up but i am close
Ya, there's so many boats for repower and new boats that could use a motor like what we're talking about. I wonder if there volume is so low on the 200 ROS that they have to charge more to justify it.
Could be an opportunity for a competitor to swoop in???
Michael J Giesler
02-07-2016, 06:47 PM
It's coming it will be unveiled at the Miami boat show
blacktruck
02-08-2016, 10:25 AM
It's coming it will be unveiled at the Miami boat show
Sounds like someone knows something!! Hopefully.
stv1991
02-08-2016, 10:54 AM
I hope its true and it would be great if it was from BRP
Michael J Giesler
02-08-2016, 12:00 PM
Nope it's a billet aluminum block with all the goodies
stv1991
02-08-2016, 02:15 PM
Thats too bad. I'm waiting for a 400# small block 200-225hp
Michael J Giesler
02-08-2016, 04:10 PM
Look under General discussion crt billet block it's under 400 #lb
whipper
02-08-2016, 06:25 PM
Really stoked on the launch of the new CRT in a few days big time!! Maybe the sub 24ft middle class man performance boat enthusiast can finally have a real motor to break some records again.:cheers: Its been over a decade since Merc went obese and low performance on there motors. Its like they got lost in the dark ages or something? When my 20 year old 225 with only a few goodies can smoke a new 300 on the same hull there's something not right? Cars and Bikes keep getting faster and lighter while mercury outboards kept getting heavier and slower? they do make a mighty fine inboard but thats not any credit to them. Its only because the car motor manufactures were designing lighter more powerful motors. They just copied them. Its been a decade since a real high performance outboard has been made and my hats off to CRT to designing something we all have been hoping for for a long bloody time!! haha The 200 ros and SST are sweet but a 300 two stroke is what everyone wanted not a 200!! Merc never listened but CRT has. Awesome!! 2 strokes are also making a come back in moto cross and sleds also because they havent made one that never needed to be twice the CC to compete with a two stoke yet either! Takes a 400cc+ 4 to compete with a 250cc 2 stroke moto cross bike. Even then theres no comparison. haha
spoke to Simon today about turning up the wick on a 200xs.looking at between 215-220hp @7000rpm`s.just for grins I asked about a Yamaha inline 4 200 4 stroke non SHO the same output 220hp @6400rev`s.Now take a Yamaha 200 S H O and now you can have a light weight 4 stroke "300".FYI.
Markus
02-29-2016, 02:10 PM
spoke to Simon today about turning up the wick on a 200xs.looking at between 215-220hp @7000rpm`s
They should put out more than that bone stock...
blacktruck
02-29-2016, 03:05 PM
spoke to Simon today about turning up the wick on a 200xs.looking at between 215-220hp @7000rpm`s.just for grins I asked about a Yamaha inline 4 200 4 stroke non SHO the same output 220hp @6400rev`s.Now take a Yamaha 200 S H O and now you can have a light weight 4 stroke "300".FYI.
How? the 200 SHO is super heavy, 505 lbs. Not even sure it has solid mounts. The inline 4 SHO is 480lbs. That's pretty heavy. 175 Pro XS is lighter and a 2 stroke. The mercury racing 200 XS ROS is 430 lbs.
the mercury is still only in the very low 200`s,while the Yamaha is 300 with an ecm reflash.all the 4 stroke S H O`s are exactly the same engine with different tunes.inj. part numbers are the same for all hp ratings.money saver by producing the same animal.I agree it is not a 2 stroke!
powerabout
02-29-2016, 07:47 PM
but the merc comes as SST and ROS so we have a racing emission engine which is a gift from god
David
02-29-2016, 08:13 PM
20k for 200 hp with no warranty - I am glad we don't exchange gifts, your concept of gift is different. I take your point, there is nothing else out there.
powerabout
02-29-2016, 08:49 PM
yes I do agree, they seem very reliable so I dont understand why there is no w/tee even the old 90 days they used to offer on race motors.
They have lost many customers because of this I'm sure
blacktruck
02-29-2016, 11:43 PM
the mercury is still only in the very low 200`s,while the Yamaha is 300 with an ecm reflash.all the 4 stroke S H O`s are exactly the same engine with different tunes.inj. part numbers are the same for all hp ratings.money saver by producing the same animal.I agree it is not a 2 stroke!
But you're talking about a much different motor, the Yamaha is a heavy 4 stroke and after a flash may make 300 h.p. The 300XS merc or even the 250 Pro XS are the comparables to that motor and the merc has some advantages, gear case, power/weight ratio, etc. The 200XS is a lighter weight, much smaller, more efficient engine.
Yamaha on a fishing boat or something pretty heavy, great. On a light weight hull, no bueno.
I have found a source that will sell a new 200 S H O for 13,000. plus.this motor will do all I need till I`m gone.hrs and hrs and hrs....this motor will satisfy "MY" needs.
Sleek Jr
03-31-2016, 03:45 PM
I have found a source that will sell a new 200 S H O for 13,000. plus.this motor will do all I need till I`m gone.hrs and hrs and hrs....this motor will satisfy "MY" needs.
Where?
I found a guy in Indonesia that sells marine stuff,both new and used.he said he would deliver to my door a new Yamaha sho 200 for 13,800.00 with only 350.00 for shipping. I am not sending my money over there with no guarantee of anything.I contacted the Indonesian equivalent to the BBB,and they would not verify that his business is legitimate.remember,if it sounds to good to be true,it probably isn`t.U can look for yourself-Sport Sales in Jacarta ,Indonesia.
Sleek Jr
04-02-2016, 12:05 AM
How much are they from the dealer in the US?
Sleek Jr
04-02-2016, 12:07 AM
How? the 200 SHO is super heavy, 505 lbs. Not even sure it has solid mounts. The inline 4 SHO is 480lbs. That's pretty heavy. 175 Pro XS is lighter and a 2 stroke. The mercury racing 200 XS ROS is 430 lbs.
I'm gonna sound like a dummy.. but what does ROS mean?
Todd D
04-02-2016, 07:33 AM
Race offshore
best U.S. price I could find was 15,299.00 Yamaha S H O 200
bep078
05-26-2016, 01:36 PM
Finally, a dyno test on the 200XS ROS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0LzvwIPS3o
237hp @ 6600 rpm
Sleek Jr
05-26-2016, 02:43 PM
Finally, a dyno test on the 200XS ROS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0LzvwIPS3o
237hp @ 6600 rpm
The video says that was a "powerhead" dyno test. So, what would it be at the prop?
BTW, what's the best price out there on one of these? Is a 20" available, or only 15"?
bep078
05-26-2016, 02:51 PM
I asked him and am still waiting on a reply. However they usually correct the flywheel hp to include transmission loss within the software when they run such a test..
Price is close to a 300 XS but has no warranty..
Todd D
05-26-2016, 03:15 PM
$21K
No 20"
Onetime
05-26-2016, 03:30 PM
Rumor always was from mercury at 240 and always felt is powerhead horsepower.
Doubt the test is allowing for gearcase loss although there is data acquisition that can do that. Usually a 10% loss for Gearcase which would put it around 215 or so.
Were was this test done?
Sleek Jr
05-26-2016, 04:47 PM
For comparison, since a 175 ProXS seems to be the highest HP consumer "lightweight" 2.5 outboard available, I wonder what one of those makes at the prop, or crank?
BTW, I'm looking for a 20" one, buy or trade, and have a 25" 250 Pro XS to trade, or sell.
Onetime
05-27-2016, 08:25 AM
Pretty sure the 175xs has the smaller five pedal reed front half and probably right around 200 powerhead horsepower.
150aintenuff
05-31-2016, 05:51 PM
i know the 2.5XS block shares ports with the 280... so its safe to say minus parasitic loss for compressor and higher rotating mass its well within 250-260 HP.. id have to build mine but its getting scavenged to do my 3.0L build because im broke and the fishin boat is more important than a 1 off cool motor at the minute i may one day do a sport jet 240 front half down draft intake and ECM on it and let it eat.. but until then ill just stand on my complete 2.5XS setup for now....
150aintenuff
05-31-2016, 05:51 PM
4 pedal rubber coated and 192 hp... yep
150aintenuff
05-31-2016, 05:54 PM
For comparison, since a 175 ProXS seems to be the highest HP consumer "lightweight" 2.5 outboard available, I wonder what one of those makes at the prop, or crank?
BTW, I'm looking for a 20" one, buy or trade, and have a 25" 250 Pro XS to trade, or sell.
192 HP at prop they are a mean 175 but no 200...
powerabout
05-31-2016, 08:17 PM
not sure about the 250-260 HP, they race in texas in mixed fleet with sst120 ( 200hp) and stock 200 omc's
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