21 Challenger History

[blkmtrfan]

How about a history lesson on this venerable hull including design, manufacturing, racing, and current production of the 21 Challenger, Superboat, Rallysport, Shadow, Activator, Switzer, Scorpion, and Tuffboat (did I leave anybody out?). It would be great to hear from all of you experts and fans of this hull. Also, any old and current owners; any pics you can post? There must be a ton of them floating around (no pun intended) out there. Thanks in advance;)

[MagicFloat]

Don't forget Hammond,Apache,Predator,Stryker,and maybe Sonic and Hustler?. If George Linder had a dollar for every hull build from his design he would be extremely wealthy. First one I ran was at Merc Dealer Congress in 1976. They had a couple of yellow Challengers to debut their first Black Max outboard. Probrably one of the few builders to pay George was Bob Hammond,who used the running suface on the 2150 Hammond Challenger starting in 1979, It stayed in production til Hammond closed in 1983. Strkyer from Huntsville,Al aquired those molds and built them til they closed 3-4 years ago.Predator of Jasper,Al built several of the original hull from 1990-1993? There is a beautiful 21 Apache version in Orange Beach ,Al being fitted with a killer BBC now.An employee of ours has a completely restored 1981 Hammond 2150, people keep wanting to buy it but he won't sell it. A friend has a pretty rough but restorable 82 that would be cheap but needs a lot of work. It is a tribute to George's genuis that after almost 30 years there is still in my opinion no better handling 21' vee out there.

[Flat Out]

Former offshore racer Mark Weigl(TUFFBOAT) is spearheading this project with George Linder's blessing and input. The new boats will incorporate some new design features yet remain true to the original. The hulls will be built by one of the country's leading constructers. The hulls will feature vinylester resin FULL VACUUM BAGGED balsa coring ie; bottom, sides and deck. Hi quality interiors,hydralic steering as well as Gaffrig instruments along with hi quality hardware.
I have seen the new deck plug and mold and they are works of art.
These promise to be the best of the breed, combining a proven classic design with the best methods of construction as well as the lastest in materials available today.
I know the people involved and they want nothing but the best. They know they won't build a million boats, they just want to build a few good ones for enthusiasts who appreciate the difference quality makes.
If you are serious about a truly well build 21 V bottom hull this is the one.

[blkmtrfan]

Found these on another thread

[blkmtrfan]

Another

[T2x]

I love the Quote............ "Arguably the greatest Vee bottom ever"...... But I was talking about the Challenger 21....... and the Shadow 21 later. Who authorized my name on that banner for the Tuff Boat?

T2x....aka Rich Luhrs

[blkmtrfan]

T2x, I wasn't trying to cause any trouble, I don't know Tuffboat, I do think what he is doing (building a modern version of this classic boat) is pretty cool. I found these photos on someone's boat show thread, so I don't know anyting about your quote on the banner.

If it is you quote, can you share some of your experences that led you to say it?

Also regarding Hammond, I found this brochure pic on a Glastron site:

[T2x]

George Linder and I have been best friends, racing team mates and business associates since 1962. We both raced wooden Deep Vee Eltros in the late 60's and that "non constant" vee design later led, in part, to George's masterpiece, 21 Challenger. Later George and I colaborated on the Shadow 21 (updated deck... recessed transom....and a couple of trial "step bottoms") and , of course, The Shadow Cat. I later started Conquest Marine and we ( George and I along with Ken Adams), created the Conquest Cats (Jesse James 36' and 48', Rolling Thunder et al). These boats were made of wood/fibreglass composites constructed from a series of unique one-off designs.

The original Challenger 21 molds went to Shadow (Image Boat co.). A second set, that I was unaware of at the time, were sold , at auction to Superboat (John Coen). John marketed the design as the 21 Superboat, used cheaper hardware, and little or no core materials. (The original Shadow molds were recently sold for a pittance to a guy on Long Island.... They are in very bad shape.)

Later, Bob Hammond licensed the 21' bottom design for the very Glastron looking Hammond Challenger. This boat has a lot of fans, but not as many , I suspect, as the original Challenger/Shadow/Superboat pieces taken out of the original molds.

In the years after George and I left Shadow( early 1983)........, Raptor, Apache, Tuff boat...etc. took molds off of various Challengers, Shadows and Superboats.......some claiming George's "blessing". You must remember that George is a true gentleman, easy going, likable, talkative and outgoing. People frequently mistake this for a "collaboration" when, in fact, all it is...is conversation. "Collaboration", to me, means a paid license to sell the design with construction schedules, hardware, etc ...specified by the designer. To my knowledge, no such agreements existed with anyone but Shadow, and Hammond for the 21 footer. So.... Caveat Emptor.......

There are also a bunch of "stretched" 21's...... up to probably 30 feet at this writing....and mostly made on or around Long Island. While a lot of these guys..... talked to/invited/ displayed to/ picked the brain of....... George as well.......none of them has a "blessing" either.

Finally, You mentioned Switzer ..... I am unaware of any Switzer designs taken from the Challenger 21....or anything else for that matter. The Switzers, Bob and Dave, have always been amazing innovators and manufacturers of their own (revolutionary) designs....... (See my "Wing").

The quote attributed to me in the TUff Boat boat show banner pictured above comes from an Offshore Only.com post I authored called "Great Moments in Vee Bottom History"..... I was specifically referring to the creation of the 21 Challenger in 1976.... obviously, this has nothing to do with the 2003 Tuff Boat. Since, unlike my buddy, George, I am not a true gentleman, easy going, likable, talkative and outgoing......... This pisses me off! You can "pop" a design........ but be damn careful about quoting people by name.

Hope this helps to set the record straight.

T2x

[blkmtrfan]

That's great info, thanks T2x!!!

My appoligies for the "Switzer" listing, I was typing from memory and I really meant to list "Strkyer".

Anyone else have anything to add? Racing stories. Current owners and their impressions of their boats. Different power combinations tried.

I love this pic: found it here on S&F: :D

[MagicFloat]

Hey,T2x,Happy Birthday. You may be as old as I am. :)

[T2x]

Thanks Magic:

You and I raced at about the same time...so.... you're a really old guy!

T2x

[airpacker]

Gee whiz Rich,I see the Grumpy old man is even over here:D And here I thought you only grumped around OSO. Hope ya had a good Birthday.

[T2x]

Thanks Airpackr...........eh?

T2x........... Translating English into Canadian as a free accomodation

[trbocharge]

This really cracks me up.................

[Shadow Crazy]

can this be fixed?? good thing they were built so solid or i'd be dead.

[Shadow Crazy]

ouch

[ghost28]

ouch ..is ther a story behind that mess of fiberglass? hey rich hows it going.. long time no see.. i guess you havent been around our neck of the woods lately.. i hope both you and darren are doin good...

[T2x]

Hi George:


Happy Fourth to you and all the gang at K&K........

Shadow Crazy:....... The boat looks to be repairable........and George's boss can do it...... K&K Outboard 516-431-1865.

Jeff's gonna love this:D

T2x

[shortBUS]

I just happened upon this thread.
The Tuff Boat is not a splash, it infact has a plug. It is a totally different deck, and bottom. It is styled to look classic like the original Challenger.

To note, the above pictures, the Blue boat is a restored Scorpion 21, a Challenger splash from the late 80's and the Black boat is an original Challenger 21(also restored). It was a black Mercury boat used in Canada to introduce the new Black Max. These boats were at the Toronto boat show to test the market for a high end vee bottom with classic styling.
The boats were very popular and sold, and the construction of the NEW plug with a NEW design were started.

BR.

[blkmtrfan]

Thanks shortbus for the updated info

[Shadow Crazy]

Thanks for the # T2x, I will call em for an estimate. I miss not having a Shadow:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[T2x]

Originally posted by shortBUS
I just happened upon this thread.
The Tuff Boat is not a splash, it infact has a plug. It is a totally different deck, and bottom. It is styled to look classic like the original Challenger.

To note, the above pictures, the Blue boat is a restored Scorpion 21, a Challenger splash from the late 80's and the Black boat is an original Challenger 21(also restored). It was a black Mercury boat used in Canada to introduce the new Black Max. These boats were at the Toronto boat show to test the market for a high end vee bottom with classic styling.
The boats were very popular and sold, and the construction of the NEW plug with a NEW design were started.

BR.

How nice.....That still doesn't explain the use of my name.......

T2x

[PhastBoat]

Quote from the Activator website:

Owner and operator Mark Schnepf has been in the boat business all his life. Rebuilding engines, painting, repairing, and every type of marine work he could at a very young age.

The family owned Marina laid the foundation for Activator Boats Inc. "When I was sixteen years old, I got a ride in a 70 mph. homemade Deep V. That was it for me," says Schnepf. Within 1 year he put together his own 70 mph rig. Life had taken a sudden turn, "While my friends were driving their first cars, I was building my own boat!,"says Schnepf.

Soon building plugs and molds for some local guys landed Mark at Hustler Powerboats."After a year or so with Hustler I felt it was only natural to go out on my own," says Schnepf.

It was 1985 and the 22 Activator was born. Between Ocean Outboard ( a local dealership) and Activator Boats some sixty-five 22 foot boats were built and delivered over a 3 year span.

[blkmtrfan]

Thanks for the info, It is great that it is not a direct splash, but the bottom design does seems very similar in concept.

Sorry for not replying sooner, I have been on vacation for the last week or so, running my activator on the columbia river. My 280 did finally break in but still no accurate speed info for you, as my speedo broke and a gps was not available, but I did get clocked by another boat at well over 80 turning my 23 trophy to 7500 RPM, and I can tell there is still a little setup tinkering left (specifically motor height and trim settings). Will post some info and hopefully some more pics as soon as I have something. Later Scott

[niedorf]

Anyone know how much a 1983 Hammond 19ft, V-8 in great shape is worth?

[RJSHADOW8021]

I HAVE AN 80 SHADOW. CAN ANYONE GIVE ME MORE INFO ON IT? I ALREADY RESTORED IT AND IT IS A HEAD TURNER. I HAVE A 2.4 MOD VP ON IT WITH 8 INCHES OF SET BACK. IF ANYONE CAN GIVE ME SOME TIPS I WOULD APPRECIATE IT. I DONT WANT TO GO TO CRAZY. I WANT RELIABLE BUT FAST. ANYONE WITH MOD VP PARTS,BLOCK HEADS, ANYTHING LET ME KNOW THANKS TO ALL RJ

[blkmtrfan]

Welcome to S&F RJSHADOW8021

Is there something specific you wanted to know about Shadows? Just your boat?, or your motor?

Perhaps new threads in the different sections of the board would get you the specific answers you are looking for, and don't forget pics of your boat, we love pics ;)

[RJSHADOW8021]

BUT THERE IS A TOPLESS GIRL IN THE PICS....WANTED INFO ABOUT SET UP TIPS. ANY INFO YOU CAN GIVE ME WOULD BE APPRECIATED. HULL TIPS, GOOD OR BAD. BETTER ENGINE SET UP PROP TIPS......ETC THANKS RJ

[Shadow Crazy]

I had a Shadow with a 260 merc running 78 with the propshaft even with the pad running a Merc Trophy 4 blade 14.5x23 6 inches of setback


Like the man said, post some pictures,, nude chicks are ok by me:D


Bert

[blkmtrfan]

We need to see the pics, LOL. But you have to keep it PG-13 here, maybe fuzz out a few things. Anyway, I still think you should start a new thread in the Setup Forum and really describe (with pics) how it is set up now and what kind of performance you are seeing with the current setup.

BTW did I say you should post some pics :D

[RJSHADOW8021]

THE PICS I HAVE WONT GO THRUOGH. IF ANYONE WANTS I WILL E MAIL

[blkmtrfan]

Send em to me I will post em for ya (probably just need to be resized a little)

[email protected]

[RJSHADOW8021]

sorry it wasn't sooner pc @ work crashed. Enjoy....just a fun summer day. e mail me when you post them.
[email protected]

[blkmtrfan]

RJ, got you pics, they are pretty big 1.5 MB, our limit here is 100k, plus there isn't much of you boat in the pics :eek: :D , I will see what I can do with them when I get home, can't really do much editing with them here at work, LOL

[RJSHADOW8021]

well at the time my boat was not the main issue to get in the pics. but i thought you would enjoy them. thanks i will get pics of my boat so you can see. give me a bit to dig them up. thanks rj

[blkmtrfan]

RJ, it does look like a good time, thanks for sharing :D

I just sent the "modified" pics back to you to see what you think, they should be postable now, I still think you should start a new thread in a different section of the forum so you can ask everyone there options on your boat setup (a lot of the guys don't come to this history section even though it is one of the best spots).

So start a thread, ask your questions, and post you pics (if you still have trouble let me know)

[RJSHADOW8021]

MUCH APPRECIATED

[blkmtrfan]

No problem, great to have another outboard V fan on the board

[half moon]

I have a 1976 Challenger, formerly "E1" The first of the Suffolk County NY police boats. It has had a hard life but is now enjoying the waters of Florida's east coast powered by a Mercury Pro Max 225
Thank you Mr Luhrs and Mr Linder.
If anyone has any info on these police Challengers I would appreciate it. Why, I wonder is the steering on the left side, and what engines did they use? Were the cops happy with them?