Hull Copies

[blkmtrfan]

Please let me start by saying, I am not (NOT!) trying to start any trouble,:) there has been too much of that lately, but I am really curious about S&F members opinions and/or point of views regarding the ethics and applicable laws of manufacturing copies of a particular hull design, specifically for resale.

Maybe its just me (once again I am not trying to start trouble or make anyone mad) but it sure seems that there alot of different companies manufacturing hull copies and listing them for sale on this site.:confused:

Does the original designer get any credit and/or royalties?

Anyway just looking for opinions;)

[STVRacing]

I was wondering the same thing but was affraid to ask. Im glad it was finally brought up.

[Rusrog]

going on...
Companies will take an existing, successful design and make a copy of it and sell it for their own. In some cases the group making the copies is even so bold as to use the name of the copied boat. It amazes me the lack of ethics and pride that some people have. I could not make a direct copy of a copetitors machine and call it my own.
If you sit down and think about what is happening...it defies logic. You have a company like Triad or STV or now Hydrostream that is constantly building and developing the latest & greatest boats for a particular purpose. Then you have someone who does nothing more than buy one of those quality boats and starts making them on his own. It looks like an STV River Rocket, it probably even runs like an STV River Rocket. But does Wally or Roark ever see a dime of the money???? Nope. Someone who invested nothing & risked nothing is taking home all of the profit. Luckily the Govt. is stepping in and real boat companies are getting more support in prosecuting these XeroX boat builders.

I step down from my soap box and will gladly go back to my Hydrostream.... my REAL hydrostream.

Russ Rogers
Ft Worth TX:mad:

[MODVP22]

Wow, well put Rusrog. You pretty much summed it all up there.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Along the line of not starting any trouble, cause I know how this is going to go, and I mostly agree (bout 98%), but what about hulls that arent in production anymore? or the companies are gone?

[bulldogdaddy]

but then ther's a case like my boat. would one day like to make one out of the latest composites.but they don't manufactue them anymore and ttriton said the mold got smashed:eek: now would i be a bad person if i splashed one for myself?

[Raceman]

Guys, please let's don't get this started again. All it does is go round and round in circles and cause a bunch of arguing and hard feelings, and the people with the strongest feelings will always get involved and never give an inch, then it just goes on........and on............

[Ally 1988]

said company sold said mold to said individual. Because it was a out of date hull design don't you think that maybe said original manufactor new that said individual was going to make this boat. I think so but if you make the mold or a pop yes then thats wrong. And I would think someone would come after you. Anytime someone tried to pop an Allison its my understanding that it would not be tolerated. But I think some of these said pops are possibly out of date molds sold buy original manufactor. If not Im sure someone will come down own them or maybe they dont care (Original Manufactor).
So what do you think if this is the case. Im mostly curious and surely not taking sides I just find it hard to believe that anyone could actually get away with it.

[Stream 1]

is that I have just spent 2 years of my life and more $$$ than I will ever admit to bringing 2 new Hydro Stream to the market. I am 60% done with a third and have started a fourth.
It took way more work and $$$ than I expected and it is still to be seen if it will be a profitable adventure. But I am extremely proud of what Dennis (my R&D guy) and I created. I can't image copying someone elses work and dreams and thinking it is something to be proud of.
Luckily the laws are pretty specific and the penalties are there.

[blkmtrfan]

Raceman, As I stated eariler, I was not trying to start trouble, but I was trying to start a line of thinking where we all could come to a little better understanding of how our sport can prosper in the future, isn't that was a forum is for?

I don't mind hearing from both sides, in fact if one of the manufactures in question would state thier side, maybe the rest of us could understand it better. You are right, some people are pretty hard nosed about their opinions, and won't budge for anyone, that's fine, state you opinion, but don't expect that it will change everone elses mind no mater how many times you argue it.

Wile E., Regarding, old hulls no longer in production, that is another subject that we could also discuss. Should the new builder have to get permission from the original designer or rightful owners of the molds? What about if the company is still in buisness, how many skater and STV copies are there?


bulldog, the scenario you are describing does not sound like the person would be trying to profit from the "splash" and had already contacted the original manufacture about using the molds but just want to update his own ride, maybe not as bad?

Anyway, can we discuss such a subject, show all sorts of opinions, without heated arguements and hurt feelings or physical threats? Hopefully so, thanks Scott

[MODVP22]

We really don't need another knock down drag out fight here about this topic. Not trying to get on anyone's bad side by saying that. Race man hit the nail on the head here. As far as old designs, or no longer available models...let's take a look at history and see the boats that are copied so much, such as the Allison's, Mirage's, STV's, HydroStreams, Skaters, Eliminator's and so on. Stream1 is one of few on this board who can truely appreciate what it takes on the R&D end, and know what it would feel like if his company's designs were taken.

That said, Common Sence (although some believe it's dead), tells each and everyone of us what's right and wrong. We know right from wrong...so if it's wrong don't do it. If you know it's wrong, don't tolerate or patronize it.

[RRRevinrude]

funny you would mention triad who got in trouble with allison for copying and also hydrostream (the original) for copying a stoker on the hst????MOST boats that you see are a partial copy of something...all v hulls with a pad are a copy of an allison..... how many mirage copies are there????just my 2 cents

[Raceman]

BlackMtr, you must not've been around here long enough to see these discussions in the past, but they've amounted to the most volatile issue ever discussed here, and almost always result in a bunch of cussin', fussin, name callin' and deleated threads. We just don't need to beat the same old dead horse to death yet again. You can probably dig up some of the old dirt by doing a search with the word "splash".

[Racemore]

I'm guilty,I did it.The boat wasn't in production and the company wasn't in bis in the US.I wanted a race boat.The company is back and is showing it is first class and run by a gentleman that when I met and saw his first new boat it was evident that he's commited to rebuilding an Icon of performance boating.I had to tell him and offered to distroy it.To my supprise he told me if I wanted to make one to race he didn't mind.He posted a thread that the boat won't be produced any longer at this time and updating the hull wasn't pratical because of low demand.I did E-mail him to see if i could buy the old molds and he said he wasn't sure at this time because he has all the original company molds.

I still want a stepped canopied dragboat simular to a Q-master.:cool: Might use my permission slip.:D

By the way Allison has been protected by patent for ever and if the other companys had done the same they would have been protected.

[Reese]

my official membership was realtively recent...I remember some classic battles that were quit informative and entertaining...and boat related...imagine that... :D :D :D

Racemore...I don't understand why your situation would be considered splashing??? If someone isn't even making the boat any longer why would they care...:confused:

Here's a new twist...I see many (well not many) people selling direct copies of Mercury Cowls...are they splashing? Does Mercury care?...:eek:

[Racemore]

My intention wasn't to copy a boat to market and I didn't make a heavy production mold just a quicky.I have always thought the boat was fast and had speed that could be obtained with modification.Then the co.reopened.Some people wouldn't care but contrary to some beliefs I have to feel right about doing something like that while alot don't care if the money is there.I have alot of respect for Jim at Hydrosteam after meeting him at a gathering at East Lake last year.You might catch me going off on some occasions and if I do you can believe what I say.I have a bad problem with liars.Morals,some have em some don't.:cool:

The cowl issue is a good one.it is a splash that mercury won't waste the money to challenge.it would be extremely hard and expensive to control.I do think if the product isn't produced any longer it would be ok though.:)

[Sorry Dog]

You can probably dig up some of the old dirt by doing a search with the word "splash".

RM right you are. Great entertainment back in S&F hall of fame.

One problem though.

The freakin search don't work and hasn't worked for some time now. Type mercury into it and you will see it don't search before 8 months ago. Better yet type "raceman and tuner" into it and you know how long you been preachin that.

[blkmtrfan]

Raceman, sorry if my thread is beating a dead horse, I did find a similar thread with some very good posts:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24785&highlight=splash

But I still don't know if anything has been solved. I guess my main question comes from the fact that there seems to be so many copies for sale and as Rusrog stated, some of the sellers are so bold that they even refer to the hull they are copying when trying to sell them. If the laws are in place to protect the original designers, how come these people can still sell them using the original name:confused:

[Sorry Dog]

The reader's digest version is this:

The people who thought is was wrong still think it is wrong.
The people who thought is was OK still think it is OK.
And the people who don't care still don't care.


And people like me who like to see a good flame war still get plenty of entertainment from the once a month sour parts/props/boat deal.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Blkmtrfan, that is something I hadn't thought of, if you could track the original manufacturer and obtain written permission, it might not be bad...hmmmm

[Jason Huber]

Originally posted by Sorry Dog
The reader's digest version is this:

The people who thought is was wrong still think it is wrong.
The people who thought is was OK still think it is OK.
And the people who don't care still don't care.


And people like me who like to see a good flame war still get plenty of entertainment from the once a month sour parts/props/boat deal. TRUTH!!!:D

[FLMIRAGE]

SOS, just let it die. let people spend their money the way they want to. Remember this is about an enjoyable hobby, If I wanted to see politics I would have turned the tv on to MSNBC.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

just my 2-cents:D :D

[LPB]

Yes Im JOHN CHRISTENSEN Owner of Lightning POWER BOATS,one of the biggest splashers or what ever you might want to call it,Don't want to start any thing ,but was asked to tell my side.First things first ,Im know great designer,allthow I think I know what makes a boat go fast,and handle good,so I have taken other peoples boats ,changed them to how (I) think they should run and make my mold,most of the boats that I change are over 21' because that is the only market that I seem to be able to make money in.The small boats that I build (LIGHTNING ACTION,LIGHTNING STV RIVER ROCKET,AND my SKI MVP TUNNEL -V,are mostly for fun,If I had to depend on making a living on building boats under 21',I would have been broke a long time ago,and not building BOATS at all now!! The boats that I build under 21' don't get many if any changes,simply because I don't want to lose more money on them than I allready Do,If I listened to my accountant ,I would be better off giving those molds away,I would most likely save money!! But like most of you I love Power Boats from my 18' LIGHTNING to my 50' Yacht,and everyone inbetween,I don't mind people not liking me for poping boats,every one has there own opinion,and I RESPECT that I can't stand the people that say pop's are junk,I might not build the best boat in the world ,but I will put my boat beside any built today,our only weekness is our cosmedic's,and any one that has seen one of our 2003's can see we are getting that right now,All I really want to say about this subject is ,If you don't like (splashes) don't buy one ,but leave the guy that wants to alone,and look at the boats yourself ,and make your own decision,what someone else likes or dislikes might not be the same as yours, JOHN LIGHTNING POWER BOATS

[H2Onut]

On whats right, whats wrong, and it is ALWAYS the other guy that is wrong.


We get so upset about splashed hulls then run off to the store and buy splashes of other goods and don't think twice about it. They had to do R&D as well.


Who invented the wheel, ARE THEY getting royalties from Firestone, Goodyear and such.


I thought that Bell or in reality Gray invented the phone.

Why can I then buy a panasonic. Bell, Walmart phone ?

We bitch about Drug companies having patents and charging outrageous amount of money for pills they develop.
Then we go to the drug store and ask for generic. If your belief is that splasing is illegal then back it up with only buying the inventors product, in all aspects of your life.


DOES EVERYONE ONLY BUY GENUINE MERCURY/BMC parts form the dealer ?????????or are them sierra parts and other aftermarket pieces that we purchase at lower costs?

Someone made the first boat, I think the rest are ALL splashes.

If I can get a better product at a lower cost why should I NOT buy it ?

I am sure that many boat builders designers KNOW that there is the chance ther work will be copied if it is a good design. I guess if you know there are sharks in the water, you must be prepared to be bitten if you enter the water.

There is one thing that drives a majority of humans....$$$$$$$$


If there is a buck to be made, and the opportunity exists to make.
WE WILL. ,,,,,,It;s called g g g greed.

Not trying to cause a fuss, but need to look at this is a more realistic sense.

[blkmtrfan]

H2Onut, I agree with you that if we get technical, most everything built by man is some sort of a "splash" of an original idea, even the best boat designs out there probably took a little from here and a little from there and a little "lets try this and see what happens". I know allot of my own inspiration, when I do something custom for myself, comes from something I've seen but change or extend the idea into something that I like.

Furthermore, I agree that allot of us, including myself, buy generic products, parts, drugs, food, clothes, etc. to save money when we think it will be "just as good" for our application.

LPB states that he starts with someone else’s idea, modifies it to his liking (21' or over), and then builds them to sell. The little boats are pretty similar to the original and he says he just build these for " fun" and doesn’t make any money with them. He also goes on to say that:

"All I really want to say about this subject is ,If you don't like (splashes) don't buy one ,but leave the guy that wants to alone, and look at the boats yourself ,and make your own decision, what someone else likes or dislikes might not be the same as yours,"

That all fine and dandy, and it makes sense to me, but the biggest questions that I still have, maybe LPB can answer this, How come you don’t get in trouble for blatantly stating that you are the “King of splashers”

[LPB]

The reason nobuddy does anthing about what I do is because it cost more money than what(if you win)could get for sueing someone and proving that they, made X amount of money building the product,it all comes down to (its just not worth sueing someone for poping) May be if LIGHTNING BUILT 500 boats a year,it might be worth coming after me ,but I only build1/10 of that,and just so you know 3 of my LIGHTNING's have been poped,and ask me If I care? Not a chance! Have a great Day on the water! JOHN LIGHTNING

[blkmtrfan]

Thanks for the reply LPB, I do like to here from all sides, as it has been said in the condensed version everyones opinions will probably remain unchanged, but I do still think that it is an interesting subject. I will put the dead horse down (for now, because I am sure it will come up again) and say good night.;)

[H2Onut]

I am impressed, all side were spoken for, and NO


I am going to kick you butt
OR


You are a but hole

or F___ U


Open discsussion that remained in control. :) :) :)

[LPB]

Lets keep it this way ,We can all have an Opinion,and not hurt anyone, LIFE IS GREAT JOHN

[gggforce34]

If the hull is not protected by copyrights or pattents its fair game. I have spoken to the powers that be at skater. They tell me that there 21 is out of production. The molds are in there yard and they have no intentions of of ramping up production. They are aware of the guys here in fla that are splashing there hulls. "cost to much to go after those guys" they say and "why would i build a 21 when i can build a 46 and get the big money.