15 400R news

[Rayzor]

I just heard from a reliable source today that Mercury will be releasing a 15" version of the new 400R in the Fall. It is estimated to be 66 pounds lighter than the 20" version - which would put it at 612 pounds. Still too heavy for boats 20' and under imo, but it would be badass on an Argo or Twister! Also would work well as twins on 30' - 34' cats.

[CUDA]

Now they need to build a 38" pitch prop...

[baja200merk]

I've got a new 37. Give me a 400 I'll screw it on the tunnel I'm not scared.

[PARKER RABE]

Thinking about mounting twin 400's on the SEEBOLD , u think the trandsom will hold it?

[Greg G]

If they do release a 15" that will at least show them Merc boys are thinking about the go fast crowd

[olboatman]

Thinking about mounting twin 400's on the SEEBOLD , u think the trandsom will hold it?

May be Parker.... but it will definately make a great submarine!!!:eek:;):D Gary

[Speed Jr.]

That's great news......

[MODVP22]

Very interesting....

[SCT]

A 15" mid 400R is very cool! Only problem is how many current boats could run a 15" mid (per the transom depth) and still handle that kind of weight? I'm guessing that boat builders will build new models around this platform, though. Is the new 318 Skater model running 15" or 20" mids?

[CharlieN]

Thinking about mounting twin 400's on the SEEBOLD , u think the transom will hold it?
Yes for sure, but the real question is will the transom remain with the hull.

[MODVP22]

A 15" mid 400R is very cool! Only problem is how many current boats could run a 15" mid (per the transom depth) and still handle that kind of weight? I'm guessing that boat builders will build new models around this platform, though. Is the new 318 Skater model running 15" or 20" mids?

I was thinking that same thing. That particular Skater, the DCB that we've seen the pics of.

[whipper]

Would have to be a wide shallow transom. Bet a 21 skater would like this motor. :cheers: Can you put a 15 on a 22 Progression or a 21ft Tuff?

[TooStroked]

Unless you run a ton of setback or have Kevin cut down the transom, the standard shaft length on a Progression 22 is actually 25". My P22 has a Bob's Machine Shop 8" setback jack plate and it came with a 25" mid from the factory.

[Chaz]

I'm guessing that boat builders will build new models around this platform

There stuck with each other . Both will have stuff for sale that the average guy cannot or will not really want or be able to afford .
But like they say in the car market .. there's an azz for every seat .. Guys who want what others cant afford is the only thing they will "settle" for ....

[scawd the dog]

I have 2 perfect Boats for that Motor!:cool:

[JUPITER PULSARE]

I think the 400R would be a great powerplant for Checkmate's Pulsare 2400!!

[whipper]

Unless you run a ton of setback or have Kevin cut down the transom, the standard shaft length on a Progression 22 is actually 25". My P22 has a Bob's Machine Shop 8" setback jack plate and it came with a 25" mid from the factory.

Hmm did not know that.

[JPEROG]

I have 2 perfect Boats for that Motor!:cool:

I want first dibs on your X if you are stepping up.

Joe

[THE HOSER]

love to see one on a 21` superboat

[NAVISPEED1]

I'd love a single 400R 15", that would be interesting to see if it break 100mph. I guess the transom will need to be redone.

Twin 200xs = 880lbs + rigging = low to mid 90's

Single 15" 400R = 612lbs = 100 :confused:

Any interest in a set of 200xs's????? ;)

[JPEROG]

I think the 400R would be a great powerplant for Checkmate's Pulsare 2400!!

It won't be long and we will see Randy setting up a new one with the 400.

Joe

[baja200merk]

I'd love a single 400R 15", that would be interesting to see if it break 100mph. I guess the transom will need to be redone.

Twin 200xs = 880lbs + rigging = low to mid 90's

Single 15" 400R = 612lbs = 100 :confused:

Any interest in a set of 200xs's????? ;)
200xs are 240ish aren't they?

i guess ur still not dragging another case through the water

[NAVISPEED1]

200xs are 240ish aren't they?

i guess ur still not dragging another case through the water

Gen 1 are 202hp (I have these)

2010+ Gen 2 are 240ish

[THE HOGG]

Thinking about mounting twin 400's on the SEEBOLD , u think the trandsom will hold it?

The REAL question is would the driver have the testicular fortitude to drive it wfo?? ROFLMMFAO....

[MiamiStvEuro]

all this sounds great as I am putting a 300xs soon on the 21 skater I am getting but the $$ ouch and how much faster will it go for that price difference , would be cool if I had deep pockets also heavy!!

[SCT]

Here is the new Skater 318:
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boat-hidden/2612-first-mercury-racing-400-r-outboard-skater-catamaran-under-construction

[mikeylarge]

Unless you run a ton of setback or have Kevin cut down the transom, the standard shaft length on a Progression 22 is actually 25". My P22 has a Bob's Machine Shop 8" setback jack plate and it came with a 25" mid from the factory.
20" mid fits much nicer on a full transom 22 progression. You just need to have a hydralic jackplate with atleast 6" setback. Kevin has a plug to make a 20" transom which would work nicely on a 15" motor

[native2]

22 Talon would be a great candidate. Centerpod…..

[mikeylarge]

Dan's old 24 skater that had the single 300x would probably run well with one also

[whipper]

Here is the new Skater 318:
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boat-hidden/2612-first-mercury-racing-400-r-outboard-skater-catamaran-under-construction

Says twin 400R,s 120mph thats going to be a sweet package and price! How fast would a 31ft skater go with twin 300xs motors?

[TooStroked]

20" mid fits much nicer on a full transom 22 progression. You just need to have a hydralic jackplate with atleast 6" setback. Kevin has a plug to make a 20" transom which would work nicely on a 15" motor

Yea, that might work with my full transom. Personally, I think a 400 is just too heavy for a P 22 though - especially hung way out with lots of setback.

[Double Rigged]

A 15" mid 400R is very cool! Only problem is how many current boats could run a 15" mid (per the transom depth) and still handle that kind of weight? I'm guessing that boat builders will build new models around this platform, though. Is the new 318 Skater model running 15" or 20" mids?
20" Mids. 15"not available till sometime in the fall.

[Double Rigged]

Says twin 400R,s 120mph thats going to be a sweet package and price! How fast would a 31ft skater go with twin 300xs motors?
30' Skater with 300xs motors runs high 90's with normal load. Low 100's light perfect conditions.
I think 120 is a stretch. Maybe 115mph on a good day is my guess. Boat has been widened and wil have full wrap around windshield.

[JPEROG]

30' Skater with 300xs motors runs high 90's with normal load. Low 100's light perfect conditions.
I think 120 is a stretch. Maybe 115mph on a good day is my guess. Boat has been widened and wil have full wrap around windshield.

The two Doug Wrights that are being rigged with 400s are expecting 125. The boats run 115 with XS motors and these are able to twist another 1100 r.p.m.-the numbers work on paper but time will tell. These are expensive boats (with outboards) when you look at what is out there used with inboards. I am an outboard guy but when your running next to an inboard and can't keep the boat in the water and hooked up as well as an inboard it gets frustrating at times.

Joe

[Rayzor]

The two Doug Wrights that are being rigged with 400s are expecting 125. The boats run 115 with XS motors and these are able to twist another 1100 r.p.m.-the numbers work on paper but time will tell. These are expensive boats (with outboards) when you look at what is out there used with inboards. I am an outboard guy but when your running next to an inboard and can't keep the boat in the water and hooked up as well as an inboard it gets frustrating at times.

Joe

As usual, I agree with your post 100% Joe. Regardless of the top speed difference between my inboard 30 and my outboard 28, there is no comparison between the two in the rough. In water where top speed isn't even relevant, my inboard 30 is a smoother, safer, and faster boat - even though they are similar in size. There's just no comparison between a boat that weighs 7,000 #s with a further forward cg and a 4,000 # boat with a more rearward cg. On another note, I think the DW32 is going to be a great boat with the new 400Rs (though I would only want the lighter 15" versions), and I don't doubt that they will see 125 with those motors. But with so many beautiful late model inboard Skaters/MTIs on the market for less money, I don't understand why anybody would spend more for a slower, less capable outboard boat. We're obviously not the only ones that think like this, as you know that there has only been one DW32 pleasure outboard sold new - until these new ones that are being built with the 400s.

[WILDMAN]

I may want to put one on a 21 Checkmate or a 21 Liberator. The Checkmate runs 98 (with me driving) and the Liberator runs 105-108 with a 300xs. Actually, the 30 Liberator would be a perfect boat to put a pair on!

[baja200merk]

The two Doug Wrights that are being rigged with 400s are expecting 125. The boats run 115 with XS motors and these are able to twist another 1100 r.p.m.-the numbers work on paper but time will tell. These are expensive boats (with outboards) when you look at what is out there used with inboards. I am an outboard guy but when your running next to an inboard and can't keep the boat in the water and hooked up as well as an inboard it gets frustrating at times.

Joe
The prop shaft rpm will be less than 300xs since the 400s only come with 1.75 gear.

[WILDMAN]

Yes they are 1.75, but I heard they turn 7000 rpm

[Double Rigged]

As usual, I agree with your post 100% Joe. Regardless of the top speed difference between my inboard 30 and my outboard 28, there is no comparison between the two in the rough. In water where top speed isn't even relevant, my inboard 30 is a smoother, safer, and faster boat - even though they are similar in size. There's just no comparison between a boat that weighs 7,000 #s with a further forward cg and a 4,000 # boat with a more rearward cg. On another note, I think the DW32 is going to be a great boat with the new 400Rs (though I would only want the lighter 15" versions), and I don't doubt that they will see 125 with those motors. But with so many beautiful late model inboard Skaters/MTIs on the market for less money, I don't understand why anybody would spend more for a slower, less capable outboard boat. We're obviously not the only ones that think like this, as you know that there has only been one DW32 pleasure outboard sold new - until these new ones that are being built with the 400s.

No doubt an inboard boat will outperform and outboard boat any day of the week. It will also eat money out of your wallet at the same pace. For me it is about I only have a small amount of time to use the boat and being it is in salt water the cleaning process for a boat like Dale's 30 would add 2hrs to the cleaning time as those motors would be covered in salt ever time you go out. I also think the DW will run 125mph. They are a great boat but do not hold the resale value or appeal for pleasure boats it seems. According to MTI a client of ours they have presold 2 boats already on the 34' Model they are coming out with $400k.
I am sure the Skater being built is somewhere close to that as well. These motors will provide someone a lot of run time with little maintenance and should hold up well. I would not expect to see anyone crack the code on the computers anytime soon. I am sure Mercury is well aware of that situation and have taken extra measures to hold that off or be able to void your warranty.

[WILDMAN]

400 hp is alot out of a 2.6 litre motor!

[mr fun]

noticed a yellowfin at "Pablo Creek Marine" with all 3 lowers removed, not even a performance boat. seems like the Achilles heel to me. if they could figure a way to hook up a Bravo lower to it??? just sayin. 33k ,,, uh humm :leaving: fun out

[powerabout]

what we need is a surfacing duoprop, 4 stoke so heavy may as well add 2 speed box as well

[Don Geiger]

I may want to put one on a 21 Checkmate or a 21 Liberator. The Checkmate runs 98 (with me driving) and the Liberator runs 105-108 with a 300xs. Actually, the 30 Liberator would be a perfect boat to put a pair on!
Randy did you say 680# motor on 21 checkmate if it floats it will be fast good luck

[JPEROG]

The prop shaft rpm will be less than 300xs since the 400s only come with 1.75 gear.

There are gear sets out there-that will be as high as 1:50. Its already well under way.

Joe

[Rayzor]

No doubt an inboard boat will outperform and outboard boat any day of the week. It will also eat money out of your wallet at the same pace. For me it is about I only have a small amount of time to use the boat and being it is in salt water the cleaning process for a boat like Dale's 30 would add 2hrs to the cleaning time as those motors would be covered in salt ever time you go out. I also think the DW will run 125mph. They are a great boat but do not hold the resale value or appeal for pleasure boats it seems. According to MTI a client of ours they have presold 2 boats already on the 34' Model they are coming out with $400k.
I am sure the Skater being built is somewhere close to that as well. These motors will provide someone a lot of run time with little maintenance and should hold up well. I would not expect to see anyone crack the code on the computers anytime soon. I am sure Mercury is well aware of that situation and have taken extra measures to hold that off or be able to void your warranty.

I agree with most of what you say Ron, except that the motors in my 30 really don't take much time at all when we get back from the salt (which is every time we take it out). Every time before we take the 30 out, I WD40 the motors from top to bottom, so when we get back, all I do is wipe them down with a towel - all the salt is stuck to the WD40 which wipes right off the motors. As for expense, my 30 does burn almost twice the fuel as my 28 - but it doesn't burn any oil. When you add the oil cost, it's only about a 25% cost difference between the two boats for the day. A typical 200 mile trip in my 30 costs about $800 (91 octane fuel) for the day, and the 28 costs around $600 ($450 91 octane fuel, $150 oil).

[JPEROG]

Dale,

you have to admit that the outboard boat is much more simple and a more user friendly boat overall.

Joe

[Rayzor]

Dale,

you have to admit that the outboard boat is much more simple and a more user friendly boat overall.

Joe

Absolutely Joe, that's why I use my 28 a lot more than my 30. And I try and talk every friend I know out of buying a 30'+ inboard boat because the entire experience is not as enjoyable as the 30' and under outboard boats. Ron and I have talked, and we've agreed that for his situation the outboards are definitely the way to go. I'm lucky also that even though I take my 30 to the salt every time I take it out, I run it back through fresh to my house (which is fresh, and why I was saying it's no big deal for me to wipe down my motors). If you leave and return in salt, the outboards are much easier to flush and deal with than the inboards with outdrives. Trust me, if the water behind my house ever becomes salt (which with our changing climate could happen), I will only own outboards down at the dock. A DW32 w/ twin 15" 400Rs would probably be the replacement for my 30 - not near as fast or quite as nice in the rough, but what a great boat!

[Scream And Fly]

I may want to put one on a 21 Checkmate or a 21 Liberator. The Checkmate runs 98 (with me driving) and the Liberator runs 105-108 with a 300xs. Actually, the 30 Liberator would be a perfect boat to put a pair on!

Randy, I hope you'll call me when you do this. :) :)

[MODVP22]

Randy, I hope you'll call me when you do this. :) :)

Twins on a 30' Checkmate???? That could be cool

[baja200merk]

Yes they are 1.75, but I heard they turn 7000 rpm
1.75 @ 7k is still slower then 1.62 @ 6500

[Captin Hazlewood]

1.75 @ 7k is still slower then 1.62 @ 6500

actually 7k/1.75 = 4000 rpm propshaft & 6500/1.62 = 4012 rpm propshaft ;) so you are correct by 12 rpm, however my stock 300XS shows max rpm 6400 on the serial number decal, or 6400/1.62 = 3950 rpm.
So the Propshaft speeds are actually very similar.

[Jamescole]

Any interest in a set of 200xs's????? ;)


Yes...

[Jamescole]

Tuff marine is putting Two 400's on a tuff 28... should be awesome

[powerabout]

remember the old days..
there goes the market for a 400trs, lol

[MODVP22]

400 hp is alot out of a 2.6 litre motor!

Wilman brings up a good point here. That's quite a bit for 2.6 litres being supercharged and all. Wonder what the longevity would be

[Revolution141]

actually 7k/1.75 = 4000 rpm propshaft & 6500/1.62 = 4012 rpm propshaft ;) so you are correct by 12 rpm, however my stock 300XS shows max rpm 6400 on the serial number decal, or 6400/1.62 = 3950 rpm.
So the Propshaft speeds are actually very similar.
Don't forget a 300xs makes peak hp at around 6050rpm. Spinning it past there and your losing hp. Even DBR's upgraded 300's with raised rev limiters drop hp after 6050rpm same as stock (it's simply to allow you to run smaller props for hole shot in a short drag situation then have a buffer to let it keep winding out near the finish).
I have no idea where the 400R makes peak power but considering they are electronically boost controlled I'd imagine they could potentially hold peak hp over a broad rpm range!? This gives them the advantage of being able to spin larger pitch props down low and still reap the benefits at higher rpm. Would be good to see a dyno print out for one!
My buddies 350 verado seemed to like to hold around 6600-6700rpm a lot.?

[Rayzor]

Don't forget a 300xs makes peak hp at around 6050rpm. Spinning it past there and your losing hp. Even DBR's upgraded 300's with raised rev limiters drop hp after 6050rpm same as stock (it's simply to allow you to run smaller props for hole shot in a short drag situation then have a buffer to let it keep winding out near the finish).
I have no idea where the 400R makes peak power but considering they are electronically boost controlled I'd imagine they could potentially hold peak hp over a broad rpm range!? This gives them the advantage of being able to spin larger pitch props down low and still reap the benefits at higher rpm. Would be good to see a dyno print out for one!
My buddies 350 verado seemed to like to hold around 6600-6700rpm a lot.?

What you are saying is not true about the DBR modded 300XS. I am on the DBR 300XS raised rev limiters (6,600) w/ 34s - went to 36s and the rpm dropped to 6,100 and I lost speed (boat is 3mph faster at 6,600 w/ 34s). I would agree with you on a stock 300XS, but with all the DBR mods on my 300XSs (ECU programs, intake rings, 300X cowls, flywheels and tuners w/ 15" open exhaust mids), I have found this to not be the case. I have a set of 35s I haven't run yet, but I'm guessing these will be the fastest props at right around 6,500 rpm. As we all know, some of that speed/rpm difference could have been in the props themselves (both Dewald 4 blades), as no two sets of props are exactly the same - especially in dissimilar pitches. All I can tell you is that my 28 Skater accelerates better and is faster on top with props that spin 6,600 rather than 6,100 - and if the hp is falling off after 6,050, this wouldn't be the case.

[powerabout]

What you are saying is not true about the DBR modded 300XS. I am on the DBR 300XS raised rev limiters (6,600) w/ 34s - went to 36s and the rpm dropped to 6,100 and I lost speed (boat is 3mph faster at 6,600 w/ 34s). I would agree with you on a stock 300XS, but with all the DBR mods on my 300XSs (ECU programs, intake rings, 300X cowls, flywheels and tuners w/ 15" open exhaust mids), I have found this to not be the case. I have a set of 35s I haven't run yet, but I'm guessing these will be the fastest props at right around 6,500 rpm. As we all know, some of that speed/rpm difference could have been in the props themselves (both Dewald 4 blades), as no two sets of props are exactly the same - especially in dissimilar pitches. All I can tell you is that my 28 Skater accelerates better and is faster on top with props that spin 6,600 rather than 6,100 - and if the hp is falling off after 6,050, this wouldn't be the case.
might not agree with that 100%, low drag hulls will always go faster when propped past peak power
Its how long it carry's that power after peak and how fast it drops is the issue/skill in the engine design

[Rayzor]

Here's why I say the DBR 300XS has more power at higher rpm than the stock 300XS. My 21 Trick with stock 300XS went a best of 106 at 6,100 w/ a 32 pitch Blaster and a best of 102 at 6,300 w/ a 30 pitch Blaster. This proves the motor was making more power closer to 6,000 than 6,500, or it would have spun the 30 up higher. Yet on my 28 w/ the DBR modded XSs, it is faster when propped to run at 6,500. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you to an extent - but owning both stock and modded XSs and seeing the difference in the best rpm/top speed combinations leads me to believe that the DBR mods help the XS continue to make more hp past where the stock ones do.

[powerabout]

ok got it
cheers

[Revolution141]

Here's why I say the DBR 300XS has more power at higher rpm than the stock 300XS. My 21 Trick with stock 300XS went a best of 106 at 6,100 w/ a 32 pitch Blaster and a best of 102 at 6,300 w/ a 30 pitch Blaster. This proves the motor was making more power closer to 6,000 than 6,500, or it would have spun the 30 up higher. Yet on my 28 w/ the DBR modded XSs, it is faster when propped to run at 6,500. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you to an extent - but owning both stock and modded XSs and seeing the difference in the best rpm/top speed combinations leads me to believe that the DBR mods help the XS continue to make more hp past where the stock ones do.
I respect what your saying. I did however ask this very question to Dave when he first came out with the upgrades. He told me that regardless of power increase and raised limiters they still make peak power at the same rpm as standard. I'm just quoting his words to me.

[skaterjim]

might not agree with that 100%, low drag hulls will always go faster when propped past peak power
Its how long it carry's that power after peak and how fast it drops is the issue/skill in the engine design

powerabout, Dale my peak power is at 6400 but I rev to 6950 (for my best top speed) i tried proping with bigger diameter and raising engine higher, i reduced slip, rpm went down slightly below peak and lost about 4-5 mph. at 6950 rpm i am down over 20 hp but the boat carries past peak. fyi my limiters are at 7500 just cant pull it. need more power and raise peak power

[racer]

Thats a lot of weight change for 5 inches of mid section, I would think they are changing other components as well to save 60 plus pounds for 5 inches of mid. I do think it would run well on one of our 224s that we built.

[RBT]

It is called over rev, the ability to pull past peak power.

[sunshine patty]

just wait the 450 is already running in testing and should also follow soon

[WILDMAN]

Peak power on a 300xs is at 5750 rpm and is 307-308hp at the propshaft. This is according to Mercury.

[Markus]

low drag hulls will always go faster when propped past peak power


Why??

[olboatman]

Why??

Markus I would think that would be because speed is directly related to prop rpm and pitch. Gary

[powerabout]

They dont need a continuing increasing torque to go faster, they need a secong gear

[Markus]

Markus I would think that would be because speed is directly related to prop rpm and pitch. Gary

Well, then you would increase pitch...

[Markus]

They dont need a continuing increasing torque to go faster

Peak power is usually way beyond peak torque, which means that torque is decreasing, not increasing.

[olboatman]

Well, then you would increase pitch...

But if you keep pitch down you wouldn't loose acceleration and still gain speed with more rpm. Gary

[powerabout]

=Markus;2735694]Peak power is usually way beyond peak torque, which meansitthat torque is decreasing, not increasing.[/QUOTE]
Essentially thats what I said, the hull needs very little torque to push it, so a few more rpm/hp and it will go a bit faster.
Not going to happen on a v bottom.

[Markus]

Essentially thats what I said, the hull needs very little torque to push it, so a few more rpm/hp and it will go a bit faster.
Not going to happen on a v bottom.

Got it - you meant prop it above peak torque, not above peak power. Now I understand.

[powerabout]

Got it - you meant prop it above peak torque, not above peak power. Now I understand.
No I do mean after peak power
you must see those argo cats up your way with the SSt120 powerhead ( forgot what they call them over there)
look at the revs they run those to, way past peak power.
SST120 in the USA they are getting toward 9k, saying that that's circuit racing so I guess you need to compare with a kilo record and see what revs they ran at.
So torque peak long gone and horsepower as well.

[Revolution141]

Another big factor is props a certain rpm's. One prop type might be great at 6000rpm (engine speed obviously), but once you start trying to spin it to say 7000+ becomes less efficient. While other prop types will be useless at the lower rpm but more efficient at higher rpm's.
there are many many factors to consider.
Im not saying mercury got their dyno figures wrong but I've heard from 2 separate independants that dyno'd the 300xs and both agreed peak power was between 5950-6050rpm.?

[Double Rigged]

It has been my experience with my 300xs's and DBR mods that the boat ran best around 6200rpm max. Anything higher no gains in speed maybe a slight decrease in speed.
I never got my motors to turn more than 6400 rpm no matter what prop was on the boat. They seemed to hit a wall.

[Rayzor]

Mine seem to be different, even with two guys, fuel and 80+ temps it will spin 6,500. It might possibly be the DBR tuners and open exhaust that are allowing the power to continue a little higher.

[Double Rigged]

Dale it has to be. There must be some sort of gains with the tuners. I had tried to get a couple from them for my x motors but Joe never got me pricing or dyno data on what the gains would be over stock.

[Rayzor]

Dale it has to be. There must be some sort of gains with the tuners. I had tried to get a couple from them for my x motors but Joe never got me pricing or dyno data on what the gains would be over stock.

He says they don't really see much in the way of gains unless they also do internal mods to the motors, but that's the only difference between my 3.2s and yours. For whatever reason, my 3.2s like to spin 6,500, as they also spin my 15 1/2" x 34" labbed Merc 4 blades 6,500 (even though they only yield 112 at that rpm).

[Adam McKeon]

Dale it has to be. There must be some sort of gains with the tuners. I had tried to get a couple from them for my x motors but Joe never got me pricing or dyno data on what the gains would be over stock.
Ron- Your boat is beautiful w/ lots of cool parts however, the weight of your boat ( and everything in it ) and X dimension / drag would be the only things holding an XS back. No hp ( maybe 1 or 2 hp ) gains from the tuners, only a major weight reduction from stock.

Im not a smart man but my guess is just switching to X motors ( all other things remaining the same ) is not going to do much to your performance numbers. Maybe +1 or 2 mph on top when really light on fuel but your going to have to become a fuel barge to make a run of any distance. So in the end, what is gained?


I can turn my small props (34 four blade) w/ 1.62 to 6700 all day w/ my XS. I do however cruise w/ a 35 or 36 just to keep cruise speed up and rpm down. My hull is unique, light & has a pressure regulated water system but as w/ yours, Dales or anyone elses- more gains to be had from external water pick ups, props and a strong diet.

[powerabout]

I wouldnt be changing a tuner without changing the fueling as well.

[NAVISPEED1]

Was this project from Skater killed???
I would think with this new 15" 400R (single) motor would be a cool package, although I won't be the first ordering one anytime soon, some people might.
Entry level Skater
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats-engines/1485-skater-to-offer-entry-level-cat-in-2014

[Adam McKeon]

Was this project from Skater killed???
I would think with this new 15" 400R (single) motor would be a cool package, although I won't be the first ordering one anytime soon, some people might.
Entry level Skater
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats-engines/1485-skater-to-offer-entry-level-cat-in-2014
Im pretty sure it was killed at Skater but a few other manufactures are considering a mid-sized ( single or twin outboard ) to be a viable option. I wont name who they are as its not my place. Who knows- if Merc slaps a decent warranty on a 15" fs w/ 450hp - might see alot of neat stuff built. Alot of moving parts in a 7000rpm capable four stroke. I for one will stick with what I have until someone in a similar boat passes me

[Rayzor]

Was this project from Skater killed???
I would think with this new 15" 400R (single) motor would be a cool package, although I won't be the first ordering one anytime soon, some people might.
Entry level Skater
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats-engines/1485-skater-to-offer-entry-level-cat-in-2014

Pete was thinking of doing a 25'/26' cat w/ or w/out a centerpod for a single I/O or twin 200XS application - until I told him the 200XSs had zero warranty. He said he couldn't sell a pleasure boat with non-warrantied motors so he said to hell with it. It was way down on his priority list anyways - he's got a few new boats he's working on before he got to that one anyway (which won't be anything for us little guys, trust me!). The only thing I see Pete doing with these 15" 400Rs will be as twins on 30/32s or maybe a 368 w/ triples.

[Double Rigged]

Adam,
I hear ya and you are right about the weight etc. I can tell you with the exception of Dale's number he is posting my Skater is as fast as any other 28's out there with guys I know and the numbers we share. With regards to the weight i figure 2mph maybe diffierence.
Regarding the x motors I know you ran one but again light boat totally different scenario. If you look at the 28 Skater Jim has run 124, I have a friend with a 30 that runs 112mph, Another 28 ran 120 or so at LOTO. Tom Kennedy's 24 over 120mph also. Those numbers show and easy 8mph gain. I will know soon for myself. It was a fun project, it does drink some fuel, but I can tell you this. It pulls harder than xs set up and does not bang your head with compressor noise and sound like a fishing motor! I would be willing to bet there is no XS powered 28 going to come down here and run 115mph.
I am looking forward to seeing Justins 24 Skater and also the one with the 2.5s in the keys.
Going to try and come up to Jacksonville for the poker run and or Lake Lanier, Tick Faw. Hope to see you out there

[scb]

What clamp is this possible 15" 400R going to have?

[Rayzor]

Adam,
I hear ya and you are right about the weight etc. I can tell you with the exception of Dale's number he is posting my Skater is as fast as any other 28's out there with guys I know and the numbers we share. With regards to the weight i figure 2mph maybe diffierence.
Regarding the x motors I know you ran one but again light boat totally different scenario. If you look at the 28 Skater Jim has run 124, I have a friend with a 30 that runs 112mph, Another 28 ran 120 or so at LOTO. Tom Kennedy's 24 over 120mph also. Those numbers show and easy 8mph gain. I will know soon for myself. It was a fun project, it does drink some fuel, but I can tell you this. It pulls harder than xs set up and does not bang your head with compressor noise and sound like a fishing motor! I would be willing to bet there is no XS powered 28 going to come down here and run 115mph.
I am looking forward to seeing Justins 24 Skater and also the one with the 2.5s in the keys.
Going to try and come up to Jacksonville for the poker run and or Lake Lanier, Tick Faw. Hope to see you out there

So you're saying my 28 would run 126+ if I put X powerheads on? I don't believe it would. My DBR XSs have already pushed my 28 to 118 with a passenger (cool morning, light on fuel), and I think the 35s will get me to 120 - which would mean 128 w/ X powerheads? I know my boat is light (weighs 3,780 dry), but I'm certain that Jim's is lighter being all stripped down, so I don't see how I could possibly be as fast as him with the same power, much less faster? I personally think my DBR XSs are very close in power to a set of X powerheads, because if I were willing to pull all the interior out of my boat, put just two Sparco seats in it and throw my full race hatch on (same setup as Jim's), I honestly think I'd run 122 in ideal conditions. Still wouldn't match Jim's speeds, as he's on kill with his 28, but it would be right there with the rest of the X powered 28s.

[Double Rigged]

Great debate Dale. Have thought this through many times. That is why I built these motors.
I had stock 300xs. Then DBR Lvl 1 kits. Boat has weighed the same. Good set up. If you guys are right I will also say you were too. The boat will run what ever HP is available. I am not saying xs's motors are bad just wanted something to do. I will know soon enought once I get a few gremlins squared away. I my mind I believe a 300x is 8-10mph faster than a bone stock 300xs. Add a level 1 kit and if the HP is as claimed it should only be 4-5mph faster. In speaking with Dave Bush he also told me the compressor eats 20hp no matter what. That means the X motor has a 20hp advantage and not to mention a 7100rpm rev limit. I that alone will help accelleration. Lastly when I add the DBR goodies to the 300x it will make a lot more power. Dave Bush has openly said that the 300x is the best motor for all out hp. I just wanted a baseline and a feel for a starting point before jumping all in to the next level. Where I stop dont know yet. I like having bling and HP. Not just a stripped down model. This is what makes our sport so much fun. I have learned a lot from guys like you and admire your boat and set up as well as Skater Jims. Also our boating areas and climate influence how we set these things up.
If we can put together the meet up at David K's place at Tenkiller maybe you can come too.
It would be fun to line them up and just run!

[Rayzor]

Great debate Dale. Have thought this through many times. That is why I built these motors.
I had stock 300xs. Then DBR Lvl 1 kits. Boat has weighed the same. Good set up. If you guys are right I will also say you were too. The boat will run what ever HP is available. I am not saying xs's motors are bad just wanted something to do. I will know soon enought once I get a few gremlins squared away. I my mind I believe a 300x is 8-10mph faster than a bone stock 300xs. Add a level 1 kit and if the HP is as claimed it should only be 4-5mph faster. In speaking with Dave Bush he also told me the compressor eats 20hp no matter what. That means the X motor has a 20hp advantage and not to mention a 7100rpm rev limit. I that alone will help accelleration. Lastly when I add the DBR goodies to the 300x it will make a lot more power. Dave Bush has openly said that the 300x is the best motor for all out hp. I just wanted a baseline and a feel for a starting point before jumping all in to the next level. Where I stop dont know yet. I like having bling and HP. Not just a stripped down model. This is what makes our sport so much fun. I have learned a lot from guys like you and admire your boat and set up as well as Skater Jims. Also our boating areas and climate influence how we set these things up.
If we can put together the meet up at David K's place at Tenkiller maybe you can come too.
It would be fun to line them up and just run!

I think the big power difference between the X and the XS comes when they start modifying the internals - a fully modded X (w/ a 3.2 crank) starts becoming a monster, where a fully modded XS doesn't get a whole lot better than what we've got. There's no doubt that if you keep chasing #s by modifying your Xs, you will continue to see gains over your relatively stock XSs. But like Adam said earlier, don't expect to run with the lighter boats, even with the additional hp. You need to go weigh your boat Ron, so you know what to expect for good #s out of your setup.

[SCT]

Like someone stated earlier in the thread, how do you lose 66 lbs by going from 20" to 15" mid?
also, what did the Omc V8 weigh back in the day?

[baja200merk]

A v8 weighs about 550

[skaterjim]

Just so you guys know I got the fat B--ch 2550 stock no rigging no motors. most of you start out much lighter than that. i think skater says 2100 so I started 450 in the hole.

[Double Rigged]

Just so you guys know I got the fat B--ch 2550 stock no rigging no motors. most of you start out much lighter than that. i think skater says 2100 so I started 450 in the hole.
Like I said. 300x power and a great set up....

[tux974]

300x power and a great set up

:iagree: My 28 ran extremely well with 300X motors!
As for fuel consumption it never really mattered to me, I just wanted power and speed!
http://i59.tinypic.com/mmfnt3.jpg

[steve123]

1985 Evinrude 3.6XP 20". 565LBS.

[Rayzor]

Just so you guys know I got the fat B--ch 2550 stock no rigging no motors. most of you start out much lighter than that. i think skater says 2100 so I started 450 in the hole.

What does your rig weigh ready for the water Jim, no fuel? Don't tell me you've never weighed it! ;) Mine was 5,860 #s on the trailer, went and dropped the boat in the water and took the trailer straight back to the scales and weighed it at 1,980 #s. The boat had 10 gallons of gas and 6 gallons of oil on board (100 #s). So that's how I know mine weighs 3,780 #s dry, but ready for the water (full interior, stereo, two Braille 17# batteries, on-board battery charger, props on and ready for fuel/oil). Even though you started with a heavy bare boat, I doubt you're any heavier than mine after you've starved yours over the past 10 years. :D

[Rayzor]

:iagree: My 28 ran extremely well with 300X motors!
As for fuel consumption it never really mattered to me, I just wanted power and speed!
http://i59.tinypic.com/mmfnt3.jpg

Didn't you say you got 122 out of yours Tony?

[skaterjim]

What does your rig weigh ready for the water Jim, no fuel? Don't tell me you've never weighed it! ;) Mine was 5,860 #s on the trailer, went and dropped the boat in the water and took the trailer straight back to the scales and weighed it at 1,980 #s. The boat had 10 gallons of gas and 6 gallons of oil on board (100 #s). So that's how I know mine weighs 3,780 #s dry, but ready for the water (full interior, stereo, two Braille 17# batteries, on-board battery charger, props on and ready for fuel/oil). Even though you started with a heavy bare boat, I doubt you're any heavier than mine after you've starved yours over the past 10 years. :D Dale I never did weigh it.

[tux974]

Didn't you say you got 122 out of yours Tony?

Dale, with all do respect I'm not getting into the debate on #'s!
The only thing I will say is I loved my X's and would only run those motors if fuel consumption was not a concern.
I have run along here on LI with Jim, Charlie T, Joey Imp in crazy Nick's 28 and VinnyR and all I will say is the mail was moving right along!! Jim was always up front though!

[powerabout]

How much less fuel does the DFI xs use?

[Rayzor]

Dale I never did weigh it.

So I'm the only weirdo that's weighed most of his boats? :leaving: Well, whatever your 28 weighs, it doesn't really matter, because it's fast as hell..............and beautiful too! :cheers:

[Rayzor]

Dale, with all do respect I'm not getting into the debate on #'s!
The only thing I will say is I loved my X's and would only run those motors if fuel consumption was not a concern.
I have run along here on LI with Jim, Charlie T, Joey Imp in crazy Nick's 28 and VinnyR and all I will say is the mail was moving right along!! Jim was always up front though!

I do hear there's a lot of fast 28s back East..........with Jim's being one of the fastest twins for sure. The funny thing about the #s debate is that we're all just bull****ting about being the king of the ants! Lol......... With 180mph on-up inboards commonplace nowadays, we're all just slow-pokes in our wackers! :)

[tux974]

I do hear there's a lot of fast 28s back East..........with Jim's being one of the fastest twins for sure. The funny thing about the #s debate is that we're all just bull****ting about being the king of the ants! Lol......... With 180mph on-up inboards commonplace nowadays, we're all just slow-pokes in our wackers! :)

Dale, it is all in the water.....;):D Jim just knows how to get that last bit out of it, plenty of R&D there!! Not to mention he can drive that thing.....:thumbsup:
Your boat is awesome! You have done an absolutely fantastic job!!! IMPO, I would just enjoy it and not be too concerned about that last 1,2,3 extra miles hr!

[Rayzor]

How much less fuel does the DFI xs use?

I've had 28s with 2.5s, 3.0s and now 3.2s - I honestly think the XSs burn 40%-50% less fuel at cruise (5,000rpm). At WOT, I think they only burn about 20%-25% less fuel than the standard EFI 2.5/3.0 motors. The XSs do however burn more oil (imo).

[Rayzor]

Dale, it is all in the water.....;):D Jim just knows how to get that last bit out of it, plenty of R&D there!! Not to mention he can drive that thing.....:thumbsup:
PS, Your boat is awesome!!! IMPO, I would just enjoy it and not be too concerned about that last 1,2,3 extra miles hr!

I agree with you Tony - that's why I don't waste the time to take the rear seat out and put the race hatch on it. I'm just happy with real-world #s with it. I've honestly never chased bigger #s with my 30 either.........until the day another 30'+ boat runs over 160 with naturally aspirated 91 octane motors, I have no reason to try and go faster. And to be honest with you, I don't care to go any faster than I'm already going! :eek: To me, the beauty of Skaters is not the big # anyway, it's the SUSTAINED speeds they're capable of through all different conditions, that most other boats just can't match! :cheers:

[tux974]

:iagree: Skaters are second to none in my book!!!.....:thumbsup:

[aggiestckl]

:iagree: Skaters are second to none in my book!!!.....:thumbsup:
Second to none in the united states you mean

[Double Rigged]

I agree with you Tony - that's why I don't waste the time to take the rear seat out and put the race hatch on it. I'm just happy with real-world #s with it. I've honestly never chased bigger #s with my 30 either.........until the day another 30'+ boat runs over 160 with naturally aspirated 91 octane motors, I have no reason to try and go faster. And to be honest with you, I don't care to go any faster than I'm already going! :eek: To me, the beauty of Skaters is not the big # anyway, it's the SUSTAINED speeds they're capable of through all different conditions, that most other boats just can't match! :cheers:
Exactly, Sustained speed in all conditions.... Having a skater with a few extra pounds in the rough water in the right place is not a bad thing! Case and Point MOBIL ONE! We should be happy with what we have. Dale is lucky enough to two!!!!!!!!

[Speed Jr.]

What are you referring too when you say Mobil One?

[Double Rigged]

the 28' Skater Mobil One race boat

[Speed Jr.]

:-) so would you agree it's worth the 20k facelift I'm giving her?

[jasonpijanowski]

You cant polish a terd...

[Double Rigged]

Any Skater is worth a face lift!

[jdewaard]

:iagree: Skaters are second to none in my book!!!.....:thumbsup:

And the best thing is they are built in the great state of Michigan.:D:thumbsup:

[tux974]

Any Skater is worth a face lift!

:iagree:.......:thumbsup:


And the best thing is they are built in the great state of Michigan.:D:thumbsup:

:iagree:......:thumbsup:

[skaterjim]

Dale i would weigh mine if it wasnt such a pain in the but to do it. doesnt really mater to much because I cant change it.

[skaterjim]

Dale, with all do respect I'm not getting into the debate on #'s!
The only thing I will say is I loved my X's and would only run those motors if fuel consumption was not a concern.
I have run along here on LI with Jim, Charlie T, Joey Imp in crazy Nick's 28 and VinnyR and all I will say is the mail was moving right along!! Jim was always up front though!

Tony, the reason I drove all the way up there was to race with the fastest outboard guys and it was always close you guys are all fast. Charlie and I did alot of testing he was a big help in making my boat run the way it does. He has beat me a few times.

[Speed Jr.]

You cant polish a terd...

Actually you can. Mythbusters proved it........Which is great news for your wife.

[tux974]

Tony, the reason I drove all the way up there was to race with the fastest outboard guys and it was always close you guys are all fast. Charlie and I did alot of testing he was a big help in making my boat run the way it does. He has beat me a few times.

Jim, yes it was always fun all running together, some fast toys for sure! Sad that due to certain circumstances those runs where stopped.

Dale, I know you wondered about weight on these 28's so I just looked at my papers and as per Peter's records mine was 1990.....If you look closely you will also see my gas fill location, it did have great balance and attitude in the rough with those 20" X's.

[Double Rigged]

Tux,
They are definitely forward for sure. Mine are not quite that far but I have all rigging forward as well. My boat has great balance in the rough water also. It was a beautiful looking boat. What props did you run?
Rotation?

[tux974]

~Mercury 14 3/4 X 34 Labed 3 blade Cleavers.
~Out
Love to have had the option of wheels that are available now!

[Thunderduck]

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachments/boating-forum/482571d1418233360-2015-verado-400sci-img_601791835362555.jpeg

[MODVP22]

Someone sent me this the other day:
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats-engines/2652-dcb-verado-400-outboard-equipped-29-footer-hits-108-mph

Not sure how to interpret this...Looks like it doesn't sit too low in the back, BUT I can't help but think the boat would run just as well with a single 800hp big block and good outdrive, and not weigh 1200-1400 lbs.

[JPEROG]

"14 mph faster then with the XS rigging" is good news for cat outboard guys. It will be interesting to see what gains are seen on a lighter hull-

Joe

[MODVP22]

Part of me wants to throw the BS flag because you know the Merc guys are there helping with the "tuning".

I also find it interesting that the thru-hub props are being used so much-Bravo, Trophy, Rev4 and not Cleavers and ET's

[Mr. Demeanor]

Someone sent me this the other day:
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats-engines/2652-dcb-verado-400-outboard-equipped-29-footer-hits-108-mph

Not sure how to interpret this...Looks like it doesn't sit too low in the back, BUT I can't help but think the boat would run just as well with a single 800hp big block and good outdrive, and not weigh 1200-1400 lbs.


The DCB 29 ran 129mph with a single Merc 1350.

[MODVP22]

The DCB 29 ran 129mph with a single Merc 1350.

Exactly. With 450hp less I think it's possible

[whipper]

They say they used only 32 pitch props and it didn't matter what the load in the boat was, 1 or 3 full or empty. That tells me she should have no trouble turning 34 to even 35 pitch props light for a whole lot more speed.

[1BadAction]

I notice some people just hate these things so bad out of pure spite they can't even decide what angle to bash them from. It's comical. Must be tired of rebuilding their 300 drags and 260s every 3rd time they get to hit the water.

Someone can buy 2 400Rs and have around 50 grand left over for the price of one 850SCI (for comparison sake), and the 850/#6 drive dry weight is 1700+lbs! Have fun tearing into the big block every 125-200 hours and adjusting the valves after a 3 day weekend of running. The V-rats are easily thousand hour motors with no valve adjustment, they're near silent off plane, and they idle like swiss watches. Now step up to something current like the 1100 and you're a little better off, but then talking 189 THOUSAND dollars MSRP for a drive package, somewhere around $125k more than a pair of 400Rs. I'd much rather have the extra room in the hull and give up a few MPH on top.


The DCB 29 ran 129mph with a single Merc 1350.
At over 200 thousand dollars, it should run 129, and have a blonde that crawls out of the engine compartment to give a little knob slobbin once you break triple digits.

[SCT]

"At over 200 thousand dollars, it should run 129, and have a blonde that crawls out of the engine compartment to give a little knob slobbin once you break triple digits."

Bad, I'm sitting here at my desk laughing my ass off!!

[whipper]

i dont see to much bashing? They seem like there going to be a home run for merc. The big boy boats will love them with twins and 4 and 5 and 6 hanging off the back of there 40-50fters. The stout 21 to 25fters should love them on there hulls in a single over the 300xs. about the same power to wieght only 70+ more HP and the big thing I see is HP& torque between 6500 and 7000 rpm!! Thats what caught my eye. They should be able to spin a 34-36 pitch prop to the limiter on the right hull with a single.

I think when most say anything derogatory its more that they wont work on there smaller hull. i for one love to see the new great stuff being made BUT i would like to see at least ONE offing in the 300hp range thats more inline with the weight of the 300hp motors they built almost 20 years ago with RPM to at least 7000 or 7500. A 3.0+lt 300hp 400lb 7500rpm motor you would think is easy for them to make since they made so many like that sub 400lbs and 9500 rpm+in a 2.5. Ill bet a every 28ft tunnel or Vee and less running 300XS motors would change to 400lb 300hp twins or singles in a heart beat with 7000-7500 rpms with a 2 year warrenty. Thats a very large market!! The 300XS is doing the trick but but they accually decreased performance over were they were. They never went forward, they went backward in performance. Thats never good. Cars and Bikes are always breaking new territory in performance. Merc Outboards until this motor haven't since the 300X. This 400R is for a very smaller segmant of the market. The rest of the boats are stuck with what they have. The 250 and 300xs. No were near a 2.5 300 drag other than sip fuel. The 200xs needs to be punched out to 300+ without adding weight with 8000rpm and warrenty then they would have something for everyone. Theres lots of 200xs spinning 7500+ and living a long time so they could have had a warranty because not to many would have needed it anyway. My old 96 225 promax is 10 years on the first rebuild and still strong and I spin her with the side pinned to 7500 regularly those motors weight 364 lbs!! Its to bad merc is loosing the skilled perople they once had to produce those type of motors. They have been into car motors to heavy for to long Im afraid. The new techs might be getting to young to ever know what there company once could produce. Hears my dream motor but really was already made before they just forgot how to make them. 390lb 350hp 8000 rpm 15 and 20 inch 2.8lt or 3.0lt DFI SM 162,175,187. They make car motors with more HP, lighter than that with 8000 rpm!!

[Mr. Demeanor]

Using a boat speed/HP calculator:
http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm

So I plug in the numbers that are known for the 1350hp at 129mph and then change the HP to 800 and get a top speed of 99mph.
Thats the best I can do witout knowing a lot more details like weight of each boat etc.

[patchesII]

I put my numbers into the calculator. I'll never know if it's accurate. 168 mph with a constant of 250. Lol

[stoker2001]

The DCB 29 ran 129mph with a single Merc 1350.
only dragging one skeg...seems on the slow side for 1350..just saying

[1BadAction]

i dont see to much bashing?
Not as much on this thread, but I haven't seen so much internet ass-hurt since the first V-Rat was produced. People bitch and whine like the thing is the reason why there aren't anymore 280s. They will sell more 400s their first full production year than they sold 280s in their entire production run. Fact. THAT is why the 2.5 is going away, because in spite of all the piehole running on the internet, they sold very few of them in the grand scheme of things.

As far as optimaxs spinning like 2.5 EFIs or drags, it'll will NEVER happen. If it was possible and as easy as all the armchair engineers think, Merc would have screwed the opti gear on a 2.5EFI and had a 280 Optimax in 2006. The 200XS runs nice for a 2 stroke, but it's still unrefined and archaic compared to the new generation of outboards, oh, and it's power to weight ratio isn't as good as the 400. :reddevil:

A Verado of any kind was never meant to do the job of a 300 drag, never will, just like a 300 drag will never do the job that a 300 Verado can. I can't fathom why that's so hard for so many people on this site to understand.


Bad, I'm sitting here at my desk laughing my ass off!!

Just sayin, I know what I would expect if I paid that kind of money for a 1350. :D :D

[aeneas]

Whipper, this 400 is an engine for that Allison 23ft... ;):D

[Michael J Giesler]

I don't have an exact number of 280's built from 1998 till now but i am giving an easy guess of over 200 the negative comments are a lot of frustration mercury did have a new direct injection 2.5 that was supposed to hit the market in 2006 but it was not released due to not cost effective for Brunswick as for the new 400r for big boats it should be a monster but for all the Allison stv's hydrostream and other go fast boats under 21' we are going to be up you know what creek sorry for the rant but there is a market for us even as little as we are

[eli]

glad mercury is banging out the 400's and selling them they are innovators for sure for the rich
but for a percent of us who are not rich and have a little boat we somewhat can afford the 400 means squat
and to enjoy our little boats we need the light 375# merc 260/280 to fulfill out needs I hope parts stay around for
next 10 years so we can keep going for a while other we might as well steel sleeve them so they go farther ?

[whipper]

it's power to weight ratio isn't as good as the 400. :reddevil:

Yes sorry missed that the R was going to be 612. Then its Power to weight is better yes. Other wise they were very close. The 400R is on the right track.

[RUM RUNNER 305]

Mercury should let me borrow a pair of 400's with some 35 pitch cleavers for the weekend.... i'm not scurrred

[whipper]

Mercury should let me borrow a pair of 400's with some 35 pitch cleavers for the weekend.... i'm not scurrred

Those should move your 24 along quite rapidity!!! ill bet faster than she would with any other outboards on the planet at this time say 130+!:cheers:

See now when Dave cracks the code for 8000 rpm youll be 150 with 35,s and 1.62,s!! haha sick right there!

Ok I take it back these motors are good for quite a few sub 25fters. The 24 Skater probably the best hull for twins in the smallest size out there for these 400r,s!! Might be a bit much for a 21 Skater but great for busting 100 with even a single ill bet! 21 and up Progression, Trick,21+ tuff,Challanger, wonder if a SRV could handle another 100 lbs back there or an STV Euro? 21+ Checkmate. i cant wait to see how fast some of those hull can go when there equiped with this engine!!

[MODVP22]

Not as much on this thread, but I haven't seen so much internet ass-hurt since the first V-Rat was produced. People bitch and whine like the thing is the reason why there aren't anymore 280s. They will sell more 400s their first full production year than they sold 280s in their entire production run. Fact. THAT is why the 2.5 is going away, because in spite of all the piehole running on the internet, they sold very few of them in the grand scheme of things.

As far as optimaxs spinning like 2.5 EFIs or drags, it'll will NEVER happen. If it was possible and as easy as all the armchair engineers think, Merc would have screwed the opti gear on a 2.5EFI and had a 280 Optimax in 2006. The 200XS runs nice for a 2 stroke, but it's still unrefined and archaic compared to the new generation of outboards, oh, and it's power to weight ratio isn't as good as the 400. :reddevil:

A Verado of any kind was never meant to do the job of a 300 drag, never will, just like a 300 drag will never do the job that a 300 Verado can. I can't fathom why that's so hard for so many people on this site to understand.



Just sayin, I know what I would expect if I paid that kind of money for a 1350. :D :D

Seriously Jim? If Mercury does it, then it must be the best available...that's how we're supposed interpret everything huh? The Verado is a $100 million project POS and they are trying to sugar coat it. As a Brunswick investor-SELL SELL SELL! What you got going with the accountants that run that company anyway? I seriously can't believe you're slobbing Mercury's knob on everything they do. Comical. Let me guess-they make the best props too, and the best accessories, oh and the boat companies they own build the best boats on the planet :icon_bs:

BTW, who said anything about a #6 drive and 850SC? Hell no, go to Teague and B-Max for half the $ and end up with a better product anyway :rolleyes:

[aeneas]

There stuck with each other . Both will have stuff for sale that the average guy cannot or will not really want or be able to afford .
But like they say in the car market .. there's an azz for every seat .. Guys who want what others cant afford is the only thing they will "settle" for ....Yes, they are killing their own market... Who thinks there is less pollution and less consumption with a larger engine. Who thinks the boats being built to carry these big inefficient lumps are more efficient than a smaller lighter boat. Who thinks the average Joe will go out and buy a boat with two or more of these... Who thinks he can afford it? HEY BRUNSWICK, YOU GOT IT WRONG! WHEN YOU STOP THE OPTIMAX TWO STROKE PRODUCTION YOU WILL BE OUT OF THE OUTBOARD MARKET!


Gen 1 are 202hp (I have these)

2010+ Gen 2 are 240ish
Did you dyno them? If so sell yours, there is something wrong with them...

[whipper]

Theres more high performance boats 16-24 than any other size by a large margin ill bet? Most not all run the 300xs as there highest hp option. There weight make them not the ideal choice but that's all there is since Merc stopped making lighter HP motors. Im sure alot of guys would trade in there 300xs if there was a lighter 300 that spun a few more R,s. Its these sized high performance boaters that made mers what it was. Now there abandoning them. I hope if Merc just wants to kill the high performance market in the area they have dominated for so long that OMC with all there engineering can come up with a motor that is for the masses other than what merc thinks is high performance in just a 175xs or a 200xs. With the 300xs although a good motor lacks alot in performance and power to weight that there good stuff used to. 225Pm 260Drag 280,S3000. Just one motor like a 280 at least for the average joe that makes up for 90% of the boating public in high performance outboards. Make it sub 440 and as many litres as ya want at least 280hp with a few rpm please. Someone!

[olboatman]

Theres more high performance boats 16-24 than any other size by a large margin ill bet? Most not all run the 300xs as there highest hp option. There weight make them not the ideal choice but that's all there is since Merc stopped making lighter HP motors. Im sure alot of guys would trade in there 300xs if there was a lighter 300 that spun a few more R,s. Its these sized high performance boaters that made mers what it was. Now there abandoning them. I hope if Merc just wants to kill the high performance market in the area they have dominated for so long that OMC with all there engineering can come up with a motor that is for the masses other than what merc thinks is high performance in just a 175xs or a 200xs. With the 300xs although a good motor lacks alot in performance and power to weight that there good stuff used to. 225Pm 260Drag 280,S3000. Just one motor like a 280 at least for the average joe that makes up for 90% of the boating public in high performance outboards. Make it sub 440 and as many litres as ya want at least 280hp with a few rpm please. Someone!
:iagree:I also feel that BRP will produce the next generation of performance 2stroke outboards. Being into the smaller end of performance boating, hp to lbs is real important. Either way it goes I have (must be my age!) no need (or want) to drive a 4stroke on the road all day then go home and fly one down the pond!!! I don't care if I am a Dino---- don't even like 4stroke yard tools. Jmo Gary:)

[Rayzor]

Those should move your 24 along quite rapidity!!! ill bet faster than she would with any other outboards on the planet at this time say 130+!:cheers:

See now when Dave cracks the code for 8000 rpm youll be 150 with 35,s and 1.62,s!! haha sick right there!

Ok I take it back these motors are good for quite a few sub 25fters. The 24 Skater probably the best hull for twins in the smallest size out there for these 400r,s!! Might be a bit much for a 21 Skater but great for busting 100 with even a single ill bet! 21 and up Progression, Trick,21+ tuff,Challanger, wonder if a SRV could handle another 100 lbs back there or an STV Euro? 21+ Checkmate. i cant wait to see how fast some of those hull can go when there equiped with this engine!!

I completely disagree with you - these new 400s are too heavy for a 28, much less anything 25' and under.

[Onetime]

A 24 Skater with a pair of these 400's on it is ludicrous. The 24 was designed for twin engines weighing in at 375 pounds each. To think you can put twin engines on weighing 300 pounds more each for a total of 600 pounds on the transom extra over design.......well you figure it out!

[JWTjr.]

You've gotta be kidding me. The 280 production number is well, well over 200. The 280 was built from late '98 to the last ones in 2005. 200 would make the average only about 30 per year. I don't know the exact number, but I remember during a plant tour in 2004 being told well over 200 per year were made for more than a few years. I'd guess there are a couple thousand at least.

[RUM RUNNER 305]

You can call me Ludicrous all you want I would try it.. Someone told me 300xs motors were to heavy for a 24 Skater back in 2011 when I was looking at boats to buy...seems to work pretty good to me.. My jack plates are stainless steel and weight 90lbs each.. So the 400's with no or light weight jack plates would probably be about tithe same.. There are pictures online somewhere of a 24 white and purple with heavy Verado motors.. Probably slow as balls but still.. I wouldn't say it can't be done.

[whipper]

I completely disagree with you - these new 400s are too heavy for a 28, much less anything 25' and under.

Then what are they good for? OR better put what hull other than anything over 30ft? Thats my whole point hear BTW. Why keep making HP thats heavier and heavier. They keep limiting there sales with motors on hulls that there is to few of to make a difference? Most of those guys buying a Skater 35 wide body want the rumble of twin 1200hp+ motors and do 160+ not 3 or 4 outboards and maybe get to 120-130 if your lucky. On scale your going to need a 28fter just to hang a single to be realistic and power to the confines of the hulls design as you said. i agree i said in the next post. I was just being subjective as Rum says he would try it. Will it work? With some thought to setup anything works. Will it be safe? Well maybe maybe not?. haha but im sure she will be more comfortable as an every day hot rot with the 300xs motors hes running. its just that it will be cool to try. Like that 120+mph 18ft Gayliner capri or what ever it was. It was designed to have a 3.0lt LX 205 hp 55 mph on a good day set up. This guy stuffs a 900hp+ monster in the back and does 120+ in her!! im sure alot of people thought he was nuts but he did it and she looked pretty sweet running also. Again not the best every day setup to take your buddy's out for a nice cruise and some go fast. See thats the whole problem with not having an option that covers the bases. Guys have not to many choices and end up running setups there hulls are not designed to run because there is no longer that lighter option. Im not just talking Allisons either. Though thats were it all started for me and most of us A guys have been dealing with that in different ways,most sticking with the 2.5. Theres lots of guys running to heavy of engines for there hull and do what ever it takes to make them work because the light option for there hull design isn't available for the performance there hulls used to have when there were 2.5,s new. Guys want better economy and close to same speeds. So until that happens or not there will be more and more guys trying this new stuff out for better or worse? Ive played devils advocate a 1000 times over a 300xs on my hull. Just when I over think it some one else has a bad experience who tried the BB and it back to the drawing board..

[Markus]

Why keep making HP thats heavier and heavier.

Mercury's high performance outboards have always been based on souped-up fishing engines.

The 2.4 and 2.5 liter high performance engines exist because there were 2.4 and 2.5 liter fishing engine platforms at the time. Not because Mercury wanted that guys with small boats should have fun.

The Verado platform is what it is. You can get easily get more power from a supercharged design and create a high performance engine that way. You cannot easily make the Verado lighter.

[Speed Jr.]

I seriously considered the thought of a set of these for my 28....Talked to the foremost experts for those with lots of experience with 28's with 2.5's and 3.0's. Every single person said the handling capabilities noticeably diminished from the 2.5 to the 3.0. Especially the rougher the water got. The extra weight of these would probably significantly increase the porpoise too. A set of these on a 24 it would be hopping across the lake and be terrible in the rough. Balance is huge on these tunnels. As much as I'd like to disagree, I believe Rayzor is absolutely correct. Just my 2 cents.

[Revolution141]

I find some of the comments here laughable! It's as if skaters are the only boat on earth and mercury only supplies to the US market!?
To say the 400 is only suitable for 24-5ft plus boats is to put it bluntly, wearing blinkers! Just cause it ain't made in USA doesn't mean it doesn't exist! I agree the US has a big (or huge) market share but to suggest no boat under 24-5ft is suitable for a verado because someone in the US doesn't make one is being narrow minded.
Ok. I'm ready now, hit me...........lol

[aggiestckl]

Can s3000 or 300 drag still be bought abroad?

[Double Rigged]

I seriously considered the thought of a set of these for my 28....Talked to the foremost experts for those with lots of experience with 28's with 2.5's and 3.0's. Every single person said the handling capabilities noticeably diminished from the 2.5 to the 3.0. Especially the rougher the water got. The extra weight of these would probably significantly increase the porpoise too. A set of these on a 24 it would be hopping across the lake and be terrible in the rough. Balance is huge on these tunnels. As much as I'd like to disagree, I believe Rayzor is absolutely correct. Just my 2 cents.
+2 Having 3.0L on my boat and the way it is set up those motors will kill the handling. You would need a bunch weight up front to offset the back and by the time you are done. You have killed what gains you got over the 300xs. JMO

[Davidlake]

Two 400's on a 24 Skater??? I remember a thread about two years ago with a guy that put two 300xs's on a 21 Liberator and it lasted less than one day until it broke apart and sunk somewhere in the Midwest! Anyone remember that thread?

[powerabout]

Mercury's high performance outboards have always been based on souped-up fishing engines.

The 2.4 and 2.5 liter high performance engines exist because there were 2.4 and 2.5 liter fishing engine platforms at the time. Not because Mercury wanted that guys with small boats should have fun.

except the 2.5 performance blocks were custom made to be high performance engines

[Rayzor]

Then what are they good for? OR better put what hull other than anything over 30ft? Thats my whole point hear BTW. Why keep making HP thats heavier and heavier. They keep limiting there sales with motors on hulls that there is to few of to make a difference? Most of those guys buying a Skater 35 wide body want the rumble of twin 1200hp+ motors and do 160+ not 3 or 4 outboards and maybe get to 120-130 if your lucky. On scale your going to need a 28fter just to hang a single to be realistic and power to the confines of the hulls design as you said. i agree i said in the next post. I was just being subjective as Rum says he would try it. Will it work? With some thought to setup anything works. Will it be safe? Well maybe maybe not?. haha but im sure she will be more comfortable as an every day hot rot with the 300xs motors hes running. its just that it will be cool to try. Like that 120+mph 18ft Gayliner capri or what ever it was. It was designed to have a 3.0lt LX 205 hp 55 mph on a good day set up. This guy stuffs a 900hp+ monster in the back and does 120+ in her!! im sure alot of people thought he was nuts but he did it and she looked pretty sweet running also. Again not the best every day setup to take your buddy's out for a nice cruise and some go fast. See thats the whole problem with not having an option that covers the bases. Guys have not to many choices and end up running setups there hulls are not designed to run because there is no longer that lighter option. Im not just talking Allisons either. Though thats were it all started for me and most of us A guys have been dealing with that in different ways,most sticking with the 2.5. Theres lots of guys running to heavy of engines for there hull and do what ever it takes to make them work because the light option for there hull design isn't available for the performance there hulls used to have when there were 2.5,s new. Guys want better economy and close to same speeds. So until that happens or not there will be more and more guys trying this new stuff out for better or worse? Ive played devils advocate a 1000 times over a 300xs on my hull. Just when I over think it some one else has a bad experience who tried the BB and it back to the drawing board..

I completely agree with you, and that's why I think Mercury will sell 10 to 1 of the standard 20" 400Rs to the big V guys that they sell of the cat-version 15" 400Rs. These motors are really only suited for 30'-34' cats as twin applications, and these boats are gonna' set back the buyer $300k+ when rigged with twin 400s and run a best speed of 110-125mph, depending on the boat. For another $100k-$150k, you can build the same boat with inboards and get an additional 25-50mph. I wouldn't trade my 10 year old 30 inboard straight across for a brand new 30 outboard w/ 400Rs - why would I want a boat that tops out at 115mph when my will run 160? Hell, I cruise 115 w/ 5 guys and full of fuel! For the guys that can afford a new 30'+ cat, I don't see many of them opting for these new 400Rs - because if they can afford a $300k+ boat that sucks gas, they can probably afford a $400k+ boat that sucks gas. If a manufacturer could bring to market a 30'-34' cat with twin 400Rs priced at $200k, I think you would then have a package that would sell relatively well. It is a market that currently doesn't exist, nor do I think it will happen, but I do think that setup would sell. It would catch the guys that used to buy 25'-28' single inboard boats for $150k, and upgrade them in a big way for just a little more money. But when a twin outboard cat is so close in price to a twin inboard cat, not many guys are going to opt for the huge loss of performance with the outboards.

[Rayzor]

I find some of the comments here laughable! It's as if skaters are the only boat on earth and mercury only supplies to the US market!?
To say the 400 is only suitable for 24-5ft plus boats is to put it bluntly, wearing blinkers! Just cause it ain't made in USA doesn't mean it doesn't exist! I agree the US has a big (or huge) market share but to suggest no boat under 24-5ft is suitable for a verado because someone in the US doesn't make one is being narrow minded.
Ok. I'm ready now, hit me...........lol

You Aussies are a whole different breed - you guys build all kinds of different combinations that haul-ass! Your short course circle-race boats are clear evidence of that - your BAD boats, 6 liters and KT boats are all phenomenal race boats that we don't have here in the states. But you've got to remember that the market is different here, most boats sold here are purely pleasure boats that need to do a variety of things well - not purpose built race-boats like you guys seem to be into down under.

[noli]

.



Anyone have any inside info on when Mercury will start testing this 15" 400R?

proly will be hush hush till its ready to be released to the public

any pics yet?







.

[Trick Powerboats]

The testing is done.



Anyone have any inside info on when Mercury will start testing this 15" 400R?

proly will be hush hush till its ready to be released to the public

any pics yet?







.[/QUOTE]

[NICE PAIR]

I find some of the comments here laughable! It's as if skaters are the only boat on earth and mercury only supplies to the US market!?
To say the 400 is only suitable for 24-5ft plus boats is to put it bluntly, wearing blinkers! Just cause it ain't made in USA doesn't mean it doesn't exist! I agree the US has a big (or huge) market share but to suggest no boat under 24-5ft is suitable for a verado because someone in the US doesn't make one is being narrow minded.
Ok. I'm ready now, hit me...........lol

Quick question ................ Do your toilets really spin the other way? ;)

[Davidlake]

Quick question ................ Do your toilets really spin the other way? ;)
Nice Pair, Do you mean spin or spin out?

[Onetime]

Quick question ................ Do your toilets really spin the other way? ;)

To funny! I'm curious also being south of the equator, gravity and all that. My toilets go counter clockwise, same there?

[Onetime]

You can call me Ludicrous all you want I would try it.. Someone told me 300xs motors were to heavy for a 24 Skater back in 2011 when I was looking at boats to buy...seems to work pretty good to me.. My jack plates are stainless steel and weight 90lbs each.. So the 400's with no or light weight jack plates would probably be about tithe same.. There are pictures online somewhere of a 24 white and purple with heavy Verado motors.. Probably slow as balls but still.. I wouldn't say it can't be done.

I didn't say it can't be done. I did say ludicrous to do it. Go for it. All I can think of is a couple of lines from some comedians that I won't repeat.

[johnmiffco]

when a new boat hull is in the design stage,,,,
"the motors to be used is a big part of the hull design"
24 and 28 skaters were designed for 2.5s for cg,,,,
as that was what was available then
max lift at speed and through the rough handling

when put on xs motors the cg is off
works well for river /lakes
but in the rough not as good

2014 and down were designed for xs
so now same senerio when put on verado

where did mercury debut the 15" verado ??????????
on back of a xcat at an event
this is a huge market for that motor
as they will purchase 90% of every motor merc puts out
as stated very few with a 30-36 new cat will be using this motor
when the blue motor packages will out run the o/b
and then take an old school vee or cat
do a restro on it,,,,u think more money spent on 1 motor
than what the boat is worth is going to be done much?

the market for the 15" motor is for x cats
deep pocket uim racing
the 20" is more for the big market here today CCs

no different than the 300 drag sales
compared to the champ/F1 sales around the world
same sanctioned racing type series sales
vrsing pleasure market 1 drag to 50 champs
as why drags were stopped in production

[Davidlake]

when a new boat hull is in the design stage,,,,
"the motors to be used is a big part of the hull design"
24 and 28 skaters were designed for 2.5s for cg,,,,
as that was what was available then
max lift at speed and through the rough handling


when put on xs motors the cg is off
works well for river /lakes
but in the rough not as good

2014 and down were designed for xs
so now same senerio when put on verado

where did mercury debut the 15" verado ??????????
on back of a xcat at an event
this is a huge market for that motor
as they will purchase 90% of every motor merc puts out
as stated very few with a 30-36 new cat will be using this motor
when the blue motor packages will out run the o/b
and then take an old school vee or cat
do a restro on it,,,,u think more money spent on 1 motor
than what the boat is worth is going to be done much?

the market for the 15" motor is for x cats
deep pocket uim racing
the 20" is more for the big market here today CCs

no different than the 300 drag sales
compared to the champ/F1 sales around the world
same sanctioned racing type series sales
vrsing pleasure market 1 drag to 50 champs
as why drags were stopped in production

What do you mean with "2014 and down were designed for xs
so now same senerio when put on Verado"? Are you saying Skater changed the 28 hull in 2014?

[johnmiffco]

no didn't mean skater,,,should have clarified
"newer hulls designed/built" after release of the xs motors
were designed with the opti in mind as they were in design stage
now verado taking place of opti
is same senerio as 2.5 to opti
as far as hull design to motor

[Onetime]

when a new boat hull is in the design stage,,,,
"the motors to be used is a big part of the hull design"
24 and 28 skaters were designed for 2.5s for cg,,,,
as that was what was available then
max lift at speed and through the rough handling

when put on xs motors the cg is off
works well for river /lakes
but in the rough not as good

2014 and down were designed for xs
so now same senerio when put on verado

where did mercury debut the 15" verado ??????????
on back of a xcat at an event
this is a huge market for that motor
as they will purchase 90% of every motor merc puts out
as stated very few with a 30-36 new cat will be using this motor
when the blue motor packages will out run the o/b
and then take an old school vee or cat
do a restro on it,,,,u think more money spent on 1 motor
than what the boat is worth is going to be done much?

the market for the 15" motor is for x cats
deep pocket uim racing
the 20" is more for the big market here today CCs

no different than the 300 drag sales
compared to the champ/F1 sales around the world
same sanctioned racing type series sales
vrsing pleasure market 1 drag to 50 champs
as why drags were stopped in production

I think you pretty much nailed it.

[whipper]

when a new boat hull is in the design stage,,,,
"the motors to be used is a big part of the hull design"
24 and 28 skaters were designed for 2.5s for cg,,,,
as that was what was available then
max lift at speed and through the rough handling

when put on xs motors the cg is off
works well for river /lakes
but in the rough not as good

2014 and down were designed for xs
so now same senerio when put on verado

where did mercury debut the 15" verado ??????????
on back of a xcat at an event
this is a huge market for that motor
as they will purchase 90% of every motor merc puts out
as stated very few with a 30-36 new cat will be using this motor
when the blue motor packages will out run the o/b
and then take an old school vee or cat
do a restro on it,,,,u think more money spent on 1 motor
than what the boat is worth is going to be done much?

the market for the 15" motor is for x cats
deep pocket uim racing
the 20" is more for the big market here today CCs

no different than the 300 drag sales
compared to the champ/F1 sales around the world
same sanctioned racing type series sales
vrsing pleasure market 1 drag to 50 champs
as why drags were stopped in production


True. and probably not to many going to go threw the expense of trying to make the Vrod work on there 2.5 or 3.0lt hull design. But there will be some that do. Theres more than one way to skin a cat. oh snap!! :D

[johnmiffco]

the 15 & 20 verado is here today
good power/torque
the 20 is going on ccs and pontoons like crazy
the 15 was protyped for the x cats
so they will be going on some old school hulls
and new performance hulls will be designed for them
again how many 15" will be sold to public

time warp back quite a few yrs
18-21" hot rod hulls ,,,stv,mirage,liberator,ect
were designed for 2.4/2.5 375 lb motors
and a few stuck on the 575lb omc v8s
transoms breaking off and high bows
now u have 375 going to 625,,,,,,each,,,,,,,,,

dcb just put 2 20" 400s on their 29 cat
with merc there testing with them got 108
descent # more prop testing will do better
but no testing in real water conditions ,,,,2-4' under power,,,,what will it do

a older 28 skater with just stock ros 280s on it will do about that set up properly
razor just hit 120 with modified xs motors on his 28 skater
and we know how these boats go in rough for their size

im an old o/b racer and built quite a few hulls for drags and circle
love the simplicity of the 2.5
but them days going away for the small hot rods
now gotta afford 25' single 400 doing 85 for 100,000 +
or 30" twin 400 at 200.000+ at 110
u know when start teeking the 400 it will go faster
but dam out of my price league for 110
when can buy used car motor 36-40 skater for under 200
and start at 150 mph
bud just bought a used 388 with 1350s all stock
1st run was 182
400 is nice motor but speed to price is hard to bite

[Revolution141]

You Aussies are a whole different breed - you guys build all kinds of different combinations that haul-ass! Your short course circle-race boats are clear evidence of that - your BAD boats, 6 liters and KT boats are all phenomenal race boats that we don't have here in the states. But you've got to remember that the market is different here, most boats sold here are purely pleasure boats that need to do a variety of things well - not purpose built race-boats like you guys seem to be into down under.
I wasn't necessarily just talking about Australia. Europe make quite a few suitable sub 25' boats also. But I take your comment as a positive. You are right that we have built some fantastic boats. The US are miles ahead in cat building technology however, it's something you just never see many of down here.
All the boats you mentioned above are actually the smallest market hence why they are all custom made and usually race specific. Probably our biggest market down here is the 19-21' deep v ski boat.

Oh, and yes I just checked and our toilet does spin the correct direction, yours up there must all be broken! Ha Ha!

[NICE PAIR]

I wasn't necessarily just talking about Australia. Europe make quite a few suitable sub 25' boats also. But I take your comment as a positive. You are right that we have built some fantastic boats. The US are miles ahead in cat building technology however, it's something you just never see many of down here.
All the boats you mentioned above are actually the smallest market hence why they are all custom made and usually race specific. Probably our biggest market down here is the 19-21' deep v ski boat.

Oh, and yes I just checked and our toilet does spin the correct direction, yours up there must all be broken! Ha Ha!

Thank-you. I was concerned. :thumbsup:

[Markus]

Thank-you. I was concerned. :thumbsup:

Better hold back so that you don't risk anything until you get it fixed.

[Markus]

except the 2.5 performance blocks were custom made to be high performance engines

Well, they improved a few things here and there but stayed within the parameters of the fishing engines.

[Boss]

15" mid sounds great (although how does removing 5" in the mid shed that much weight???), but am I the only one that sees a very limited market for a big heavy inline 6 with a 15" mid?

So say the target market is for a 30' cat. Wont the bottom cylinder or cylinders practically be in the water with 650# plus engines and 15" mids on a 30' cat? Call me stupid (it wont be the first time), but I would think the 20" mid might be the better fit here anyway.

On a 30' cat, how will this 400R compare to the say the 300XS in fuel consumption at a 80 mph cruise? What about longevity at sustained high rpm use? We know 2 strokes like to be run for sustained periods at 6000 rpm, how will the new engine like sitting near redline for extended periods? The 300x and 300xs are known to have weak lowers when pushed in offshore conditions. How will the lowers hold up with the new engine? Are the prop shafts the same diameter? If so, will puking props/prop-shafts be a real concern with the increased power?

Lot's of unanswered questions...

[Onetime]

Oh, and yes I just checked and our toilet does spin the correct direction, yours up there must all be broken! Ha Ha!

I knew there was a reason I went back to an outhouse! :)

[Onetime]

OK I've been doing a little research on this toilet flushing thing here. Also did it on draining sinks. What I've found is they go both ways.
Now keep in mind I live in California and that might have something to do with it! :)

[Davidlake]

Onetime, From what I have observed, most everyone in California go both ways!!

[olboatman]

Onetime, From what I have observed, most everyone in California go both ways!!

"Like" Gary

[Onetime]

I have owned both tunnel and v bottom boats. That is what you meant right! :)

[1BadAction]

Seriously Jim? If Mercury does it, then it must be the best available...that's how we're supposed interpret everything huh? The Verado is a $100 million project POS and they are trying to sugar coat it. As a Brunswick investor-SELL SELL SELL! What you got going with the accountants that run that company anyway? I seriously can't believe you're slobbing Mercury's knob on everything they do. Comical. Let me guess-they make the best props too, and the best accessories, oh and the boat companies they own build the best boats on the planet :icon_bs:

BTW, who said anything about a #6 drive and 850SC? Hell no, go to Teague and B-Max for half the $ and end up with a better product anyway :rolleyes:
Nice, concise and well thought out response. "everything they do" LMFAO!

https://i.imgur.com/5v2Lb9h.jpg



____________________________________________________

BTW, my 6 year old $5.xx per share brunswick stock is at $50+ per right now, hows that knob taste buddy? http://i.imgur.com/mwoelWN.gif http://i.imgur.com/mwoelWN.gif http://i.imgur.com/mwoelWN.gif

[powerabout]

bmax is better than a 6 drive huh?

[MODVP22]

bmax is better than a 6 drive huh?

who puts a single #6 on a boat???? In that case YES, it is-application for a #6 isn't for single engine. Can be done, not the best results:rolleyes:

[powerabout]

who puts a single #6 on a boat???? In that case YES, it is-application for a #6 isn't for single engine. Can be done, not the best results:rolleyes:
who puts a single 6 in a boat...
every inboard ski racing boat thats who
( or can a bmax hold 1000ftlbs back these days?)

[Revolution141]

140+mph single engine #6 sounds like a pretty good result to me.........

[MODVP22]

who puts a single 6 in a boat...
every inboard ski racing boat thats who
( or can a bmax hold 1000ftlbs back these days?)

Thought we were talking about 800hp total here (subject of the thread), but hey ok, change it up :icon_bs: Psst, that's why Merc developed the NXT drive

[MODVP22]

who puts a single 6 in a boat...
every inboard ski racing boat thats who
( or can a bmax hold 1000ftlbs back these days?)

Since I'm shooting holes in your theory here, talk about a niche market...single engine #6 applications?? Yeah I bet there's tons of people lined up to buy those...probably as many as 280's :p

Pretty sure I said I prefer the IMCO anyway. Are you guys waiting in line to buy boats with 15" 400R's? Sounds like it :rolleyes:

[powerabout]

Thought we were talking about 800hp total here (subject of the thread), but hey ok, change it up :icon_bs: Psst, that's why Merc developed the NXT drive
Ok I get where ya comin from
yep dead right on the nxt
cheers

[JPEROG]

Onetime, From what I have observed, most everyone in California go both ways!!


As far as us having a true performance outboard that will work on the small stuff, It doesn't look good coming from Mother Merc.-The 300X block production has now been cancelled as well. It was it separate part numbered block from all of the other 3.0s due the exhaust chest casting.

The good news is that there will be other private production operations to fill our market desires-Modifications can be made to all of the 3.0 stuff and e.c.u.s can be re-flashed to make much more power then 2.5s were capable of. I also think that there will soon be aftermarket 280 blocks available. So just because mercury isn't going to be the provider, it is offering opportunity to the private sector and they will capitalize it.

As for the California both ways, isn't that where Bruce Jenner is from?

Joe

[scawd the dog]

What a beast of a motor !

http://i58.tinypic.com/9qgpjp.jpg

[FishingBen]

Brent, you making plans? :-)

[jasonpijanowski]

Be nice if it could spin 12000 rpms..

[scawd the dog]

Brent, you making plans? :-)

I would like that plan for sure.

[aggiestckl]

As far as us having a true performance outboard that will work on the small stuff, It doesn't look good coming from Mother Merc.-The 300X block production has now been cancelled as well. It was it separate part numbered block from all of the other 3.0s due the exhaust chest casting.

The good news is that there will be other private production operations to fill our market desires-Modifications can be made to all of the 3.0 stuff and e.c.u.s can be re-flashed to make much more power then 2.5s were capable of. I also think that there will soon be aftermarket 280 blocks available. So just because mercury isn't going to be the provider, it is offering opportunity to the private sector and they will capitalize it.

As for the California both ways, isn't that where Bruce Jenner is from?

Joe

Does this mean its NLA? what does it mean for optimax / 300xs production?

[powerabout]

Merc has a huge investment in Verado so they need to keep coming up with the product

[mercace]

Hard to believe there is one on the Pacemaker list this week.

[Onetime]

Hard to believe there is one on the Pacemaker list this week.

That was fast! Released a month ago and already one has gone back to the factory by a dissatisfied customer.

[JPEROG]

Does this mean its NLA? what does it mean for optimax / 300xs production?

XS and optimax production is estimated to run through 2019 from what I have heard.

Joe

[Scream And Fly]

I have some cool 400R stuff to post for you all this week. :) :)
I'm also working on a detailed feature article for it and I still have some other things to share. Just been trying to catch up on everything. Since Miami everything has been running at full speed, literally!

Greg

[Ira Tindale]

I've got a new 37. Give me a 400 I'll screw it on the tunnel I'm not scared.
it is black not white kevin

[baja200merk]

it is black not white kevin

All the nice ones r painted to match the Yacht they are on any way

[noli]

.

I'd like to see someone purchase the 400R powerhead and attach it to a 300X platform.

Would be cool.

[CharlieN]

.

I'd like to see someone purchase the 400R powerhead and attach it to a 300X platform.

Would be cool.
What would you do for the oil sump?

[noli]

.

because the crankshaft is vertical, the sump is proly a dry sump

[olboatman]

.

because the crankshaft is vertical, the sump is proly a dry sump

I thought all the Verados were dry sumped with oil holding(storage) tank in the mid.:confused: Gary

[noli]

I thought all the Verados were dry sumped with oil holding(storage) tank in the mid.:confused: Gary


can the storage tank (along with the 400R powerhead) also be transferred to the mid of the 300X?

[olboatman]

can the storage tank (along with the 400R powerhead) also be transferred to the mid of the 300X?

I wouldn't know but that sure would be slick !!! I also thought the oil is H2O cooled, what about a remote tank in the boat? Gary

[powerabout]

If the sump is below the crankcase I guess the sump is dry?
Question really is are there 2 pumps in the oil system?
Online parts book, here we come.

[noli]

.

if the sump is dry and thus the presence of an oil pump(or 2), then it would mean that the oil holding/storage tank can be relocatable.

option1: inside the mids
option2: inside the boat(Gary)
option3: inside the cowling somewhere
option4: at the transom

cooled by raw-water



.

[olboatman]

.

if the sump is dry and thus the presence of an oil pump(or 2), then it would mean that the oil holding/storage tank can be relocatable.

option1: inside the mids
option2: inside the boat(Gary)
option3: inside the cowling somewhere
option4: at the transom

cooled by raw-water



.
Now your talkin quite the custom rig! Wonder how much weight could be dropped, on a custom 12" mid. Gary

[noli]

.

Any news on Fall delivery of the 15" 400R ?

[FUJIMO]

They are on target still for fall. Maybe a few weeks earlier. The Race Division 450R is in R & D for after that.

[aggiestckl]

How real is the 15" 400r. I'm seriously considering buying a 400r. Is this just a pipe dream to get 15" outta the factory

[bep078]

Any new updates on the 15" 400R?

[Double Rigged]

Hate to say it but until x cat announces officially that the verado is going to be the motor of choice and all of you guys want to place orders it will never happen. Mercury will not make them without a need. SBI guys here voted for the 300xs as their motor of choice for next year.

[powerabout]

whats wrong with the 200xs?

[bep078]

X cats should be running them in the 2017 season according to the race commentator. As they are going to lengthen the boats by a couple of feet due to the weight difference of the verados.

[powerabout]

X cats should be running them in the 2017 season according to the race commentator. As they are going to lengthen the boats by a couple of feet due to the weight difference of the verados.
they will lengthen them every year till a 627's go on them, then they will be stern drives and oh well another class modified to its death

[V-bottom]

Hate to say it but until x cat announces officially that the verado is going to be the motor of choice and all of you guys want to place orders it will never happen. Mercury will not make them without a need. SBI guys here voted for the 300xs as their motor of choice for next year.

Will Mercury perhaps introduce a 15" 300xs

[AZMIDLYF]

What's the word on this option from an article in SOTW:

To enable the 300XS to run the more-desirable 15-inch-midsection—and in the process drop the weight difference to approximately 100 pounds—Porta said he has developed a replacement exhaust plate that he will provide at cost to other racers who would like to run 300XS outboards.

[noli]

.


any news on this?

I'm not in the market for one, just would luv to see this come to fruition.






.

[JPEROG]

whats wrong with the 200xs?
Nothing if you want to run 3 of them----

No one wanted to go slower then then the 280s. Gary and Kyler are going to be very fast with 300XS motors. Looking forward to seeing the show.

Joe

[Rayzor]

What's the word on this option from an article in SOTW:

To enable the 300XS to run the more-desirable 15-inch-midsection—and in the process drop the weight difference to approximately 100 pounds—Porta said he has developed a replacement exhaust plate that he will provide at cost to other racers who would like to run 300XS outboards.

This doesn't make sense to me, a replacement exhaust plate to run a 3.2 on a 2.5 15" mid/gearcase won't work. The 2.5 water pump in the 2.5 gearcase won't pump the necessary volume of water to keep a 3.2 cool. They need a replacement 15" mid like the Wayne Taylor piece. I just wrapped up the second season on my 15" 3.2s w/ 3.0/3.2 gearcases and haven't had any problems. My setup would work perfect on the Stock Class boats. They still won't be as good as they are with the lightweight, high revving 2.5s, but the 3.2XSs will keep the class alive for many years to come.

[JPEROG]

This doesn't make sense to me, a replacement exhaust plate to run a 3.2 on a 2.5 15" mid/gearcase won't work. The 2.5 water pump in the 2.5 gearcase won't pump the necessary volume of water to keep a 3.2 cool. They need a replacement 15" mid like the Wayne Taylor piece. I just wrapped up the second season on my 15" 3.2s w/ 3.0/3.2 gearcases and haven't had any problems. My setup would work perfect on the Stock Class boats. They still won't be as good as they are with the lightweight, high revving 2.5s, but the 3.2XSs will keep the class alive for many years to come.

They work fine, we have run them already. I agree that the 3 liter water pump is a bigger better design but the 2.5 case does the job. The reason that we are doing this is so that guys running the 2.5s can keep their steering, wing plates, existing mids., clamp assy. etc. and keep the transition as cost effective as possible. The 2.5 can is also significantly less weight then the aftermarket housing. As for the XS not being as good as the 2.5s, we ran the XS motors in Marathon and our top end numbers as well as acceleration times were dead even with Kylers boat which is much lighter. As I stated before, Gary and Kyler will be very fast. Scott and I ran 117 within a 1/2 mile of the ramp the first time out. The additional torque makes up for everything "the boat stays hooked up better and the throttles mans job will be much more forgiving". We will be pushing for external pick-ups as well-

Joe

[Rayzor]

They work fine, we have run them already. I agree that the 3 liter water pump is a bigger better design but the 2.5 case does the job. The reason that we are doing this is so that guys running the 2.5s can keep their steering, wing plates, existing mids., clamp assy. etc. and keep the transition as cost effective as possible. The 2.5 can is also significantly less weight then the aftermarket housing. As for the XS not being as good as the 2.5s, we ran the XS motors in Marathon and our top end numbers as well as acceleration times were dead even with Kylers boat which is much lighter. As I stated before, Gary and Kyler will be very fast. Scott and I ran 117 within a 1/2 mile of the ramp the first time out. The additional torque makes up for everything "the boat stays hooked up better and the throttles mans job will be much more forgiving". We will be pushing for external pick-ups as well-

Joe

Interesting, Marty, Joe and Dave all told me the 2.5 water pump wouldn't work well with the 3.2 powerheads. As for performance numbers in the smooth, I don't doubt they're just about equal to the 280s, as my 28 runs about identical to what it did with the 2.5s on the back. However, the additional weight on the transom makes a big difference in the rough on my 28 - and I'm positive it will have a negative effect on the DW32 as well. Certainly the 32 will carry the additional 100#s per powerhead better than my 28 does, but 200#s more hanging off the transom is still going to adversely affect the cg of the boat in the rough. Glad to see them make the switch though - it was getting ridiculous watching "Stock Class" boats race with motors that haven't been available to the public for a decade. Even though the new motors will still be a hybrid "3.2/2.5", at least it's the same "green" technology motor you can buy from your local dealer. I don't doubt that in "kilo" setup, the 32DW raceboats will surpass 120 w/ the 3.2 powerheads. In "race trim", I'm guessing you guys will still be running right around the 110 mark.

[JPEROG]

Interesting, Marty, Joe and Dave all told me the 2.5 water pump wouldn't work well with the 3.2 powerheads. As for performance numbers in the smooth, I don't doubt they're just about equal to the 280s, as my 28 runs about identical to what it did with the 2.5s on the back. However, the additional weight on the transom makes a big difference in the rough on my 28 - and I'm positive it will have a negative effect on the DW32 as well. Certainly the 32 will carry the additional 100#s per powerhead better than my 28 does, but 200#s more hanging off the transom is still going to adversely affect the cg of the boat in the rough. Glad to see them make the switch though - it was getting ridiculous watching "Stock Class" boats race with motors that haven't been available to the public for a decade. Even though the new motors will still be a hybrid "3.2/2.5", at least it's the same "green" technology motor you can buy from your local dealer. I don't doubt that in "kilo" setup, the 32DW raceboats will surpass 120 w/ the 3.2 powerheads. In "race trim", I'm guessing you guys will still be running right around the 110 mark.

The light boats will be faster than that. We ran a set of hering (never touched) 5 blade overhubs and went 117 straight off the trailer. As for the weight, I know that Dan and Rob were adding a couple hundred at the back of the tunnel, Gary and Kyler might end up moving some rigging forward but I can assure you that they will be significantly faster lap times. Scott and I were out in six foot stuff and the boat still launched perfect. Less rpm will equal less transom lift, more weight will equal less transom lift, more torque will mean fly it flat with a little negative trim and enjoy the speed...


Joe

[Chaz]

You can run the little water pump on a 3 / 3.2L , keep a fresh impeller in it and don't let it slow idle too long and it will be OK .
I understand a shop not wanting to sell that "set-up" to a customer .. but way to many of em out there to say it wont work ... ;)

[JPEROG]

You can run the little water pump on a 3 / 3.2L , keep a fresh impeller in it and don't let it slow idle too long and it will be OK .
I understand a shop not wanting to sell that "set-up" to a customer .. but way to many of em out there to say it wont work ... ;)

Scott has also come up with a pump modification that will be included in his package for the guys that choose to go this way.

Joe

[Rayzor]

[QUOTE=JPEROG;2796680]The light boats will be faster than that. We ran a set of hering (never touched) 5 blade overhubs and went 117 straight off the trailer. As for the weight, I know that Dan and Rob were adding a couple hundred at the back of the tunnel, Gary and Kyler might end up moving some rigging forward but I can assure you that they will be significantly faster lap times. Scott and I were out in six foot stuff and the boat still launched perfect. Less rpm will equal less transom lift, more weight will equal less transom lift, more torque will mean fly it flat with a little negative trim and enjoy the speed...

No doubt that when light and in flat water, they will run well into the teens, I was basing my "110mph" speed on what Kyler tells Rik his typical best speeds are over the course of a flat water race - and he leaves everybody in his wake. I know everybody talks about how fast the Stock Class boats are, but from what I hear from guys racing them, true top speeds when the water is calm are between 105-110 for the lead boats. No different than when they had Super Cat Light, the kilo record was 130+, but actual best speeds seen during the races were only in the teens. You definitely would know, as you're the one out there racing! And I didn't know that the DW32 actually needed a further aft cg w/ 2.5s - that 4' in length makes all the difference in the world obviously, because you can't get enough weight forward in a 28 Skater to have it fly flat in the rough (without actually adding weight). There's no doubt that the DW32 is the outboard king of the rough!

[Rayzor]

You can run the little water pump on a 3 / 3.2L , keep a fresh impeller in it and don't let it slow idle too long and it will be OK .
I understand a shop not wanting to sell that "set-up" to a customer .. but way to many of em out there to say it wont work ... ;)

I know they work, but I was advised against using my 2.5 gearcases with my 3.2 powerheads because of the extended time at high rpm I run my boats. It's approximately 90 miles to the Golden Gate Bridge from my house in Discovery Bay, and I have averaged over 100mph with my 28 Skater on that run when it was a calm day. To sit there at that throttle setting/rpm for that length of time, everyone said I would be chancing it with the 2.5 water pumps. I'm by no means your "average" boater, because of the circumstances of the waterways I boat on, my motors are sometimes pushed harder than race engines due to the fact that I'm not turning buoys constantly and I have 100 miles of smooth water on certain days. And there are also days where I might idle for an hour straight just milling watching an event (Fleet Week on the San Francisco Bay for example), so I also can't chance an overheat situation due to idling too long. My 3.0/3.2 pumps are pushing 5psi at dead idle (600rpm), and the motors never get over the 120 range no matter what I do - unless I run my gearcases above 2.0". I actually had an overpressure problem above 115mph (even with the gearcases at the upper limits of picking up water). I had to install an overpressure relief valve to remedy the problem. My setup is dialed-in and I couldn't be happier with my 15"/3.2XS setup!

[Don Geiger]

Is there any feedback on the 680 pound 400r

[baja200merk]

Yea the little water pump works but U gotta keep it fresh. Only other thing that sucks is you have to tear the 2.5 case apart and get rid of the 2:1 or 1.87 in favor of 1.75 or 1.62.

ive run mine for a while at 90 with the motor in the nosebleed. After I did some mods to the cooling system I only have 7psi over 80 but it stays cool on my 3.4 with small 1/2" water tube. We have done 100 mile days and I have never been left stranded by the 2.5 pump. At those sustained speeds the water pressure entering the case has to help. I bet it would cool with no pump at 90 :D

[JPEROG]

Is there any feedback on the 680 pound 400r

Brent is trying to get his LCB with a single on the water this weekend. The new Doug Wright that Troy is working on is still in his shop and hasn't been wet yet. I think that Troy is headed for vacation so it will be a couple more weeks. The next one is getting close to being able to be shipped over to Grants shop and he might be the first one to run them on a Doug Wright 32. I think we will see Mid to high twenties from this combination on the 32. I think the Skater ran 113 or 114. When Rick gets the D.W. 28 done the numbers will increase again. Record setters are just around the corner!!!

Joe

[JPEROG]

Yea the little water pump works but U gotta keep it fresh. Only other thing that sucks is you have to tear the 2.5 case apart and get rid of the 2:1 or 1.87 in favor of 1.75 or 1.62.

ive run mine for a while at 90 with the motor in the nosebleed. After I did some mods to the cooling system I only have 7psi over 80 but it stays cool on my 3.4 with small 1/2" water tube. We have done 100 mile days and I have never been left stranded by the 2.5 pump. At those sustained speeds the water pressure entering the case has to help. I bet it would cool with no pump at 90 :D

I agree Kev,

I personally went the route that Dale did with the Taylor mids and 3L cases. This project of Scott's is designed so that everyone in S class can keep their existing parts "as many as possible anyway". I think everyone will end up running 1.75s.

Joe

[baja200merk]

I think its a great way to do it. It's a bit more then a Powerhead swap but sure beats having welded up mids or Taylor's the factory ones are nice pieces.

i wouldbt mind having a couple 3.4 Etec- 15" 2.5 adapters made. We r going through putting Merc clamps on 3 of the 4 15" Omc mids we currently have with sportys under them already. One because I'm scared the 21 skater is gonna break the brp clamp and the other simply for a big ram trim so it will trim out under load before the 800ft buoy :rolleyes:

[davemvegas]

I agree Kev,

I personally went the route that Dale did with the Taylor mids and 3L cases. This project of Scott's is designed so that everyone in S class can keep their existing parts "as many as possible anyway". I think everyone will end up running 1.75s.

Joe

it will be hard to go fast with a 1.75 gear on a 6400 rpm 300xs. a 34p wont get you to far over 100 mph. a 1.62 is the way to get a green motor to run any top mph.

[JPEROG]

it will be hard to go fast with a 1.75 gear on a 6400 rpm 300xs. a 34p wont get you to far over 100 mph. a 1.62 is the way to get a green motor to run any top mph.

Most of these courses are getting shortened to the point that acceleration wins the game. Everyone is running 2:1 with the 280s. Bigger wheels are available as well.

Joe

[eli]

what speed would you not need a water pump ?

[JPEROG]

what speed would you not need a water pump ?

We were in Warrens (red rocket) 24 skater and the impellor center spun out of the port motor so we had no circulation draw from the pump. We saw it getting hot at idle and would get the horn. We let it cool real good, fired it to get on plane, shut it back down while water was forced until it was cool again then fired it off at about 40 mph and ran on both for 30 miles back to the ramp. It was amazing how fast it heated up just using it to plane off, once we were up and it cooled back down-we were in business. Turning really effected the water flow and the gauge showed it.

Joe

[baja200merk]

Well done sure beats idling! That would probably not be so easy if the case didn't ratchet

[FUJIMO]

We were in Warrens (red rocket) 24 skater and the impellor center spun out of the port motor so we had no circulation draw from the pump. We saw it getting hot at idle and would get the horn. We let it cool real good, fired it to get on plane, shut it back down while water was forced until it was cool again then fired it off at about 40 mph and ran on both for 30 miles back to the ramp. It was amazing how fast it heated up just using it to plane off, once we were up and it cooled back down-we were in business. Turning really effected the water flow and the gauge showed it.

Joe
Pretty cool huh? Has been done since the 50's with hydroplanes. No Impellers. Just gotta keep mov'n forward, lol.

[baja200merk]

Too bad the water pump can't be on a clutch like a Ac conpressor

[bep078]

https://www.facebook.com/Mercury.Racing.FB/videos/1006037606115852/ --- A teaser from mother Merc...

[noli]

.

thanks for posting, video is very interesting.

this could be the new mids like the thread starter has claimed of the 400R?

here's an image from the video. it looks like a different mid section, to me anyways :)

hoping that the lu is skinnier and more hydrodynamic

Photo Credit: https://www.facebook.com/Mercury.Racing.FB/videos/1006037606115852/

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Noli1012/Merc_racing/400R_15inch_mids/400R_short.jpg.png (http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/Noli1012/media/Merc_racing/400R_15inch_mids/400R_short.jpg.png.html)

[MODVP22]

.

thanks for posting, video is very interesting.

this could be the new mids like the thread starter has claimed of the 400R?

here's an image from the video. it looks like a different mid section, to me anyways :)

hoping that the lu is skinnier and more hydrodynamic

Photo Credit: https://www.facebook.com/Mercury.Racing.FB/videos/1006037606115852/

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Noli1012/Merc_racing/400R_15inch_mids/400R_short.jpg.png (http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/Noli1012/media/Merc_racing/400R_15inch_mids/400R_short.jpg.png.html)

I hope you're right-that mid would be super cool.

I have to chuckle, at the 11 second mark and the 14 second mark those are 280's lol

[Mr. Demeanor]

Too bad the water pump can't be on a clutch like a Ac conpressor

A small livewell pump could feed enough water at idle and not rob power from the motor. I plan on trying it eventually.

[powerabout]

how about a solid centrifugal impeller?
As long as its submerged when started would have less drag I would have thought?

[whipper]

Aluminium light Rad with an electric inboard pump and seal that case up.:D