Fuel doping question

[Trae]

I have some questions about two fuel additives. Both are Klotz products, Coxoc KL 614 and Nitro power additive KL 600. Does this stuff really make a difference? Is it corrosive to the inside of a motor like alcohol? Which one is better as far as making more power? Can you leave it in your gas tank or should you flush it out after a days use? Should you flush out your motor? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Trae

[W. Tripp]

I have not used the Nitro Power additive, but I do have some experience with Coxoc. Klotz claims up to a 6% gain. If you take out the 25-30% blowthrough with Merc two-stroke engines you get 4.2-4.5% more power. This is about what I have found in real world testing.

Mixed 1 gallon Coxoc with 4 gallons of 112 Octane Sunoco will require 2-4% richer fuel mix (1-2 numbers higher on digital ecu's). I do not know exactly what is in Coxoc, but it smells a LOT like Toluene. At $50 a Gallon, it is fairly expensive to run at this 20% mix. For the same money you can get a gallon of Nitropropane and run 10-12% for more power with the gallon going further. With Nitropropane you will have to work up your mix ratio in small increments as it is more tempermental.

I hope this helps.

[Raceman]

Wasn't the Coxoc the stuff that was discussed a while back as being banned, and VERY toxic, even when just absorbed through the skin in small amounts???????????

[Mark75H]

Yes, Coxoc is probably some dioxane derivative banned by all racing associations and easily detected with one of the drop tests even in the smallest amounts. There is also the toxicity issue that should be extended to guys behind you breathing your exhaust fumes (thats where you expect your competition to be, right?)

KL 600 is nitropropane and ether...both very polar molecules that kick fuel test meters way before you get any power boost. You have to go way beyond Klotz's "recommended" blend to get significant power increase. There is a slight chance of the nitro crystalizing into explosive salt at very high concentration, but I doubt you could get it to happen in a mix with gas.

[Capt.Insane-o]

What kind of % can one get away with?

[Mark75H]

From John Copeland's old Gokart article:


NITROPROPANE (CH3)2CHNO2

Nitropropane is, of course, chemically related to Nitromethane. It's more complex chemical bonding structure does not lend itself to the same specific energy potential as Nitromethane, and it is slightly more oxygen hungry. It is generally considered to be about 70% as potent and additive as Nitromethane, when used in sufficient quantities. One advantage over Nitromethane is Nitropropane_s higher resistance to detonation. However, it's lower heat of vaporization diminishes the increase in charge density at low RPMs. Nitropropane is even more visible to the Digatron meter than the other additives tested, tripping the meter to +6 at on .2% by volume. Nonetheless, we tested it on the dyno at 2% and 10% to maintain some continuity with our testing procedures. As expected, the 2% Nitropropane sample exhibited no measureable performance improvement over the straight race gas results. Low RPM output actually decreased in the 11300 RPM to 11700 RPM range, with no apparent explanation. Likewise, there is a minor improvement between 13200 RPM and 13500 RPM. This increase is neither of sufficient magnitude or duration to be any real value. The next graph, showing the effects of 10% Nitropropane, exhibits the same low RPM depression, only to a greater degree and longer duration, as the 2% sample. While we do not have a firm explanation for this effect, it is consistent with the earlier run. further up in the RPM range, however, the enhancement effect of using Nitropropane is more apparent. Also, we did not see the same evidence of detonation with this sample as we saw earlier with the 10% Nitromethane.

Conclusion: Nitropropane can be a useful additive in settings where no fuel tech is being used. While less powerful that Nitromethane, it's higher resistance to detonation more than makes up for that deficiency. However, some as yet unexplained low RPM phenomenon actually hurts lower ROM performance, and the effect increases (that is the power DECREASES) as the concentration is increased. But, if the Digatron meter is in use, it'll probably go off when your drive in through the gate with this stuff!


zero is all that is allowed in APBA Stock and Mod, I couldn't find the spec in OPC or Drag. Note that he says he saw +6 on the meter with 500:1 gas to nitro ratio and they tested for power at 50:1 and saw no increase

[Capt.Insane-o]

:confused:

[Mark75H]

NITROMETHANE CH3NO2

Nitromethane has been the number one fuel tool in the drag racer's bag forever. When it comes to delivering maximum bang in the combustion chamber, Nitromethane is the ticket. but that big bang only comes with massive quantities of Nitromethane. Drag racers have the luxury of passing almost unlimited amounts of whatever fuel they choose through the induction system. Karters do not. To burn efficiently and liberate more energy than regular gasoline, you_ll need on the order of 10 times more fuel if you use Nitromethane! Not a likely scenario given karting_s carbs and their pumping capacities. Anyway, in our first graph we see the effects of using 2% Nitromethane by volume verses un-doctored race gasoline. Last time we showed that Nitromethane was detectable on the Digatron meter at concentrations of less than 1%, but we chose to use 2% here to assure an adequate response. You cannot that there is a very minor enhancement on the low end of the curve, and this may again be due to improved heat of vaporization as with the Propylene Oxide. But, as before, the output is absolutely identical at RPM's over 11,700. In the second graph, with 10% Nitromethane, we begin to see some measurable results from this additive. The low end increase is still there, indicating some higher energy output as well as the cooling effect. At higher RPM's the considerably higher specific energy of Nitromethane begins to show. Higher concentrations would undoubtedly generate even higher performance. But, because this material is so easily detectable, we do not see the need. One rather less attractive feature of Nitromethane that appeared, even in the 10% concentration, is it_s substantially higher heat output. During the relatively short duration of our dyno run, we saw cylinder head temperatures climb dramatically over what we had seen with the gasoline only sample. At the same time we saw exhaust temperatures fall, a combination indicative of detonation. It should be expected that extended running would require a richer mixture to avoid sticking. Such a richer mixture would probably diminish the performance improvements somewhat.

Conclusion: Like Propylene Oxide, it's unlikely that any performance improvement can be achieved using concentrations of Nitromethane that would make it past even the most rudimentary tech inspection.


again, detected at 100:1, no power increase at high rpm at 50:1

[Capt.Insane-o]

Thanks. So I wonder how I'd have to jet a I-6 at 50%, hmmmm I'll get the Lawnboys at the rumble yet!:D

[Stoker100]

I ran tuloul in my 150 XR4 for 10 years, worked great. Without it I was border line needing to drop a prop size to water ski, but with it I could ski and still maintain top end. The engine was always in great shape. (Ran 12 OZ to 10gal)

I also run it in my 454 I/O Tunnel, also picks up a couple of MPH on top end. My Porsche 930 likes it too. run advance at 30 and without it will pick up some ping on 92 octane.

haven't had mucj experience with modified 260, this year will be my first, plan on running stock heads, and running tuloul just for protection against picking up any bad gas. Probably run 12oz to 10 gal.

What do ya think???

Thx
larry

[Mark75H]

TOLUENE CH3C6H5 and XYLENE C8H10

We_ve chosen to lump Toluene and Xylene together for several reasons. If you read the previous article (NKN July 1995), you probably noticed that we poured substantial quantities of Toluene and Xylene into the base fuel samples trying to get the Digatron meter to react. The best we could do was to push it down to -8, and that was with over 50% of each additive! The reason is simple: both Toluene and Xylene are major components of normal gasoline! They're already in there in substantial quantities. Increasing the concentration does nothing but raise the octane rating of the fuel, and, if you've kept up with your reading, you already know that raising the octane, in and of itself, is of no benefit to almost all karting engines. Again, in keeping with our goal of maintaining consistency in our testing routine, we dynoed samples with 2% and 10% of each, both Toluene and Xylene. As expected, the 2% graphs show absolutely no variation from the base fuel tests. And the 10% graphs show only the most minor variation, with some gain in the low RPM range. this is most likely due to the increased octane rating from adding these materials helping to suppress some high load, low RPM detonation.

Conclusion: This one's a red herring. If you must pour something in your fuel to feel like you_re getting some sort of special advantage, add Toluene and/or Xylene, they won't do you any good, but they won't do you any harm either, and you most likely won't get caught. One note of caution: if the tech man is using either of the water tests we outlined earlier in this series, a 10% or greater addition of Toluene or Xylene may show up.


as noted in the octane thread, AV gas usually contains very high levels of toluene, but it by itself is not a power increaser

[Stoker100]

One of my concerns was hurting things, so you have put that to rest. I will keep the thing going in my head, it feels good.
Appreciate your response very much.
Thx!
larry

[novalves]

Methyl hydrazine

[Trae]

What about a product called Powermist??:confused:

Do these doping products like a lot of compression??

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Back about 75 1% mek in the old 348 chebby kept her-him-it?running nicely. Also found a little in crank case didn,t hurt.

[Mark75H]

Hydrazine is an oxygen bearing compound, but its pretty bad stuff, too.

Extracts from MSDS sheets:


Stability
Explosion hazard, particularly if heated. Incompatible with sources of ignition, light, shock, strong oxidizing agents, strong acids, metal oxides, hydrogen peroxide, most common metals, organic materials, porous materials such as wood, paper, asbestos, soil or rust. (Contact with any of the above may cause auto-ignition or explosion.)

Toxicology
Harmful if inhaled or swallowed. Poison. Probable human carcinogen. Readily absorbed through the skin. May cause severe skin and eye irritation or burns.
Long-term exposure may cause damage to central nervous system, lungs, blood, liver and kidneys.
Exposure limits: TLV/TWA 0.1 ppm. Typical STEL 1 ppm.

Flash point: 75ºF

Armed with this data you can see that only a trained chemist should handle hydrazine and only under controlled lab conditions.

I don't know of anyone doing any engine tests with hydrazine, because of the health and explosion hazards. Hydrazine was once one of the premier choices for rocket fuel, but you must remember there were a lot of failures and explosions before they got it right.


Do these doping products like a lot of compression??

No, in fact they generally promote knock. Dragsters running heavy nitromethane loads are more like Diesels than spark ignition motors. The magento is basically just to start the engine and idle it up to the line. Once the throttles are open and the alcohol and nitro are flowing she's a Diesel. Their safety cut offs are fuel stops, not ignition switches. Ever seen a dragster loose an engine in a major way half way down the track? Guess what he probably did........let off...just a little. When he let off instead of continuing to accellerate the combustion rate went ahead of the piston speed. The out of time explosions in the cylinders were like grenades going off in each cylinder.

Sorry, I don't know what is in Powermist.

MEK isn't a powerful oxidizer at all. I don't know the knock rating of it, but its probably not good.......probably promotes knock (decreases octane performance).

[Jeff_G]

Basically with any of the over the counter or home brewed compounds you will not see any significant increase until you reach concentrations which would be easily detectable with either the Digatron, water soluability, regent solution or specific gravity. All common tests.
In OPC racing when I was chairman we specifically banned all of the mentioned compounds and more.
Using any of these compounds can cause skin irritation (skin falls off!), a respiratory risk, cancer risk and more.
If I were at a race and found someone using Coxic after turning him in I would probably get a gang togeather and kick his ---. It's not worth it! Why take the chance of hurting your health and mine? There is no safe way to use it. Period.
Do your homework and get the boat/ motor right first.

[Tbone]

is this stuff as toxic as the coxic stuff? I added nitro propane 2oz per gallon to just 93 octane pump gas.:confused:

[Mark75H]

Nitropropane is much less toxic than Coxoc and anything with Dioxane.

2 oz per gallon is about 1.5%. Look back to one of my earlier posts:
As expected, the 2% Nitropropane sample exhibited no measureable performance improvement over the straight race gas results. Low RPM output actually decreased