Pennzoil 100% synthetic

[Dooin it]

Hey gang!

I'm from acrossed the way over at sea-doo.net! One of your members offered up an article from this website regarding Pennzoil 100% synthetic oil! In case anybody here doesn't know, SeaDoo is killing us with this synthetic oil of theirs for their 951cc motor. It is a low-ash, molybenum base blend. It costs us over $30 a gallon. Some have used Amsoil AIO, but an article that was here in the past suggests that the Pennzoil full-synthetic is even better than Amsoil! To top it off, SeaDoo now has a 'new' version of this oil for the Orbital injected versions of the 951cc motor! Anybody got this Pennzoil article archived or know the old link???

Thanks in advance~Randy

[us1]

Jay Smith swears by it and if any body would know if it works he would.

[Dooin it]

Thanks! Ya, I e-mailed him, but I imagine he's a pretty busy guy!

I don't suppose you remember the article or know of any other places you've read regarding info on this synthetic??

SeaDoo is going to 4-stroke this year w/ a new 3-cyl 1500cc model, but I can't even begin to describe how smoooooooth this 2-cyl 951cc 2-stroke DI is! Buttery smooooooth at idle 1450rpms and the same at 7,000rpms WOT!!! Now we just need a better oil!!

~Randy

[us1]

Here are some threads to look at or just use the search at the top of the page for Pennzoil.
http://forums.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?threadid=2751
http://forums.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?threadid=675
http://forums.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?threadid=1902

[HowieDean]

I raced JetSki's for many years... Last one I had was a 96Xp... SeaDoo oil is junk... If you have every taken a motor apart that runs on this stuff... you would see for yourself... It leaves ash deposits all over the place... plus it doen't seem to perform very well "lots of broken ****".... We always used Penzoil synth "previously Atsca" it works very well, engines held up alot better... no plug fouling...Don't buy that **** from the dealer that you have to run SeaDoo oil or it will void your warrenty.... It's a Federal Law that long as you use the correct rated oil "TCW3 in this case" that the manufactor or dealer can't limit you to their product. If you have a problem a quick call to the Better Business Burea will straighten it out quick...So run, don't walk down to WalMart and get some...Drain as much as you can out of your oil tank.. as you don't want to mix syn and no syn oil.....

[tombrown]

I went to Walmart to pick up some Pennzoil synthetic as per Jay Smith, but they didn't cary it. I live in Canada, so maybe that is why. They did have synthetic, but I don't remember the brand. They also had a house brand (don't recall if they had house brand synthetic).

Does Pennzoil use a different brand up here?


Thanks,

Tom Brown

[Firestarter]

Tom the walmart(s) here in Toronto carry it.

RT

[Euroski]

Quaker State or Pennzoil.... it's the same. Might want to stop by one of the Pennzoil or Quaker State oil change centers.

Part numbers QuakerState case of 4gal 11675, 1 gal 17446

Pennzoil case of 4 56571

[Dooin it]

To HowieDean,

I agree! I think the only difference between then & now is that the 951cc motor uses their XPS oil. Now they have the XPS-DI oil which is slightly lower in ash content. However, while they both claim to be synthetic, neither one is actually "full" synthetic. And their other oil for pre-951cc motors is "full-dinosaur" as far as I know.

One of the biggest problems seems to lie in the XPS (actually Castrol, proprietary for SD only) gumming up those RAVE-exhaust valves rather quickly! SeaDoo wants to claim that their 'low' ash content is better for their motors. The latest is the 'molybdenum' content factor. I know that ash is a 'base-oil' or 'brightstock' "dinosaur" element, but I'm not familiar with molybdenum and whether or not it even matters for these Rotax motors. It sounds, though, that you have FULL confidence in this stuff!! You guys have a great group here!

[Techno]

Your problem seems to be the wrong engine not the wrong oil you need to put one of these 2,500cc engines in it's place.

http://www.brucatosvs.com/jetbig5.jpg

[Dooin it]

Gotta hand it to Techno! That's the motor I should be runnin'!!! LOL!!!

What ski is that on?? Actually these things are gettin' pretty crazy already! A 2001 Yamaha GP1200R can be put into the low 70's for about $1,000 bucks! You can do 80+ for about $5,000! That's 80+mph for well under $20K! All the Yamahas have to do right now is remove the Cat Con & they're all set to use whatever oil they want!

Sea Doo,.....well.......they're just a whole 'nother ballgame altogether!!

The quickest kawasaki on the IJSBA tour right now is a 3-seater that does 0-70mph in about 3 seconds flat, turns buoys like cake and will make those turns without you if you don't hang on! Insane quick!!! I just like doing about 60 and getting there under 10 seconds. There is something to be said for gas mileage for the rec-rider!! :D

[Way2Fast]

Thanks guys for treating Dooin it civil. I'm the one who informed the users on the SeaDoo board that this board had infro on Pennsoil and I know how several of you hate PWC. Put the go fast boaters and the PWC nuts ( I'm both) together and we are still the minority. I think that if we stick together it would be best for all concerned.
Richard

[Markus]

Dooin it:

Does Yamaha have catalytic converters on on their PWCs? I remember that they talked about some patent for two-stroke catalytic converters that wouyld appear on their outboards years ago, but I have heard no news since.

As to oil, check out oil-store.com, an online Pennzoil dealer that could probably ship some to you in Canada, as well as shaefferoil.com, a small lubricant manufacturer that makes TC W3 with molybdenum additive.

(I think I got the spelling right, if not, check my links page for links!)

[Dooin it]

Ahhhh, molybdenum.................that's the only thing I haven't heard back on specifically yet. I was hoping that Jay would chime in, but I guess not.

As for the Yamaha cat.con. deal, yes, the new GP1200R has a catcon in it, but is said to let go after 20, 30, or ? hours. Most guys on the message boards recommend taking that sucker out right away and replacing it with a restrictive plate that fools the ECU into thinking that the catcon's still there.

Anywhoo, does anybody else have input on molybdenum????

[Markus]

I believe that there is molybdenum in the outboard oil that Yamaha sells in the US. Except that, I do not know of any outboard oil that contains it except Schaeffer's.

Some people really believe in it, though. If you are really serious about learning more about oils, check out some of the links on my links page, especially the oil analysis discussion board.

[Markus]

By the way, molybdenum is an anti-wear additive.

[Way2Fast]

Jay must be either very busy or had a computer meltdown. Otherwise I'm sure he would have had input on this topic.
Some of the aftermarket oil additives contain Moly. From my understanding graphite does the same thing only better. But I don't think graphite will burn, I wonder if moly will...that is the big difference between oil that is used in a 4 stroke (for lubrication only) and oil that is designed to burn along with the fuel in a 2 stroke. Maybe it's the moly that in the XPS oil sold by Seadoo that gummed up my rave valves so badly.

[us1]

I think Jay is sick about talking about oil.

[FCnLa]

I think it was graphite, then molybdenum, then teflon. If I am not mistakened, all are inert and will not burn.

I used Synergyn when it was the "thing". It was a synthetic blend. Now I use Pennzoil. Jay and I had discussions about these two oils some time ago. He said the Synergyn was cheaper. He also said pay now or pay later when you have to rebuild. His choice was Pennzoil. That's good enough for me.
My .02.

PS. Any one hear of a teflon additive?

[Dooin it]

Well, I did the 'toastedmarshmallow' thing and found a 'long-way' to an oil discussion board, but the molybdenum debates there seemed to be mostly 4-stroke related and were confusing to say the least!!! I understand that moly acts as a 'plate' and binds to "high-heat" areas and maybe moreso to "open" areas of metal acting as a "substitute metal" (if you will) for engine areas that may have seen more wear!?! (I'm not 100% on details, but get the jist)

I only keep digging in more because Bombardier has most owners 'scared' that Rotax 2-strokes are somehow different. My guess is that Jay would say, "horsepucky". The only difference I'm aware of is that regarding my 951cc 2-cyl motor, the bore is rather large.(88mm) I know Jay has commented before on bore-size being a major component in demand for better oil. (especially at higher rpm) So is moly the ABSOLUTE answer for "properly" lubing a large-bore 2-stroke such as my 78mm x 88mm 2-stroke????:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Techno]

Molydium Disulphide is probably added so they can take it out in the future for reducing pollution.
The snake oil companies used to push teflon even though Dupont woudn't sell it for this purpose, it actually damages the engine. Ecspecialy roller bearings, they are so supposed to roll not slide.

One thing worth checking is what the other oils have in them. They just might have the Moly and then the bum-a-deers claims are overly "lubricated".
Someone posted how to find out. I think you just E-mail some of the companies. They want market share and if they aren't getting it for no good reason they will push back. A very generic statement is all oils are the same, then they mix up the witches brew of additives.

If your valves were to wear what would happen? Remember LEAD was used to lube 4-cycle valves, with out it the valves recedes then you put in hardened seats and no problem. Maybe it's the same kinda thing.

2.4 merc is 86mm bore x67 stroke, about the same.

[Edited by Techno on 08-05-2001 at 06:59 AM]

[Markus]

Additives such as moly are used to increase the load carrying ability of dry running plain bearings, e.g a piston ring against a sleeve when no oil is present.

If i recall correctly, moly (MoS2) creates a thin (single molecule), linear layer on the surface, that acts like a slide bearing. It has excellent properties for Coulomb friction, particularly at higher velocities. WS2 and PTFE (Teflon) work in the same way, but MoS2 and WS2 are a lot stronger and more chemically stable than PTFE. In addition, MoS2 and WS2 form layers that are significantly thinner than those formed by PTFE.

This is quite different from the role that graphite plays as a dry lubricant which is worn off the surface, thereby releasing particles and almost working like a wet lubricant.

All these lubricants affect the dry friction in the engine, but dry friction is something you want to avoid - that is why you use a wet lubricant, i.e. an oil, in the first place. It is better to have a coating that attaches well to the oil, ensuring wet friction.

As to moly being the only answer to lubricating big-bore two-strokes, I doubt it. A good synthetic oil, such as Pennzoil, would probably do an excellent job. Remember that wet lubrication is what really matters.

However, if you really want moly in a TC-W3-rated oil, there is the Schaeffer product that is probably way cheaper than an OEM product.

[Dooin it]

Thanks again for the informative feedback. I'm gonna try & get MSDS sheets for the Pennzoil, at least, and hopefully the SeaDoo XPS-DI oil too. Anybody ever been to a site for the Pennzoil? I've tried the regular routes, but no luck. I also tried searching as Itasca & Quaker State, but no luck there either. Sometimes they offer MSDS right on the web, but I just can't find the Pennzoil anywhere on the web.

Thanks too, Markus, for the toastedmarshmallow link, that's quite an in-depth page you've got there!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Markus]

I am sure that I have Pennzoil specs at home. They were available as PDFs from http://www.quakerstate.com, if I remember correctly.

If you cannot find them, I will try to remember to dig them up during the week-end.