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View Full Version : Follow up to the "Check Your Bolts" Thread



Sam Baker
04-25-2001, 11:29 AM
Just got off the phone with my brother as this is a very troubling situation. I asked him what we use for bolting the motor on the boat, and the bolts we use are the bolts OMC sells for rigging V8 outboards. I asked him if Grade 8 bolts are the best and his response is we've used them in the past, but Grade 8 bolts actually tend to rust (our experience), so we started using these bolts that OMC sells. They are $11.50 each (retail).

I never like to see things like this happen, but like any of us will say, we need to check our stuff before we go out and even if you have the world's best rigged boat, use will tend to loosen things up over time.

I stand behind our rigging. As a matter of fact, to provide some backup, we are getting read to rig 2 2.5 Offshore motors on a 25' Motion. This is a repower, so we aren't doing a full job like we did on Brad Zastrow's 30' Motion, but we'll be rigging the two motors regardless. I will track and photograph the project and list all materials used, etc.

We have been involved with high-speed boating our whole lives. Our Dad started racing in 1954 and we started as early as we possibly could. Although we aren't perfect, we strive to be perfect and we take pride in all our work, but our rigging in particular. Gordon Miller is our lead rigger and his pedigree is impecible. How many U.I.M. World Champions are rigging your boats? We don't mess around when it comes to safety or appearance of any boats that are rigged by us - new OR used.

So thank you for your information, but I'm certain that if you were to see the hundreds of boats we've rigged through the years, you'd see that the quality and attention to detail and safety are equal to or better than anything done anywhere.

Sam Baker

DaveR
04-25-2001, 11:49 AM
SAE has a specification for the "Mechanical requirements for externally threaded fastners" that includes very specific requirements and testing for proof testing and tensile testing bolts. Just to show you the kinds of loads we are talking about that would cause a 1/2"-20 steel bolt to fail in tensile or shear, a grade 4 bolt (SAE no longer lists a grade 3) which requires no grade marking by the way (the radial three lines is a grade 5) has a minimum tensile of 18,400 lbs! That's one bolt that will hold up SIX cars suspended from it, and maybe still not fail. And in strength of materials, shear strength is generally equal to tensile strength. What's happening here is probably bolts becoming loose and failing from impact fatigue. This gives us a chance to catch it before it fails. Check your bolts -mounting and steering, including under the dash. You might be riding next to me someday.

[Edited by DaveR on 04-25-2001 at 05:38 PM]

CarolinaBurt
04-25-2001, 12:18 PM
There was a Transom Stress article in March's B&WB magazine that listed bolt grades, their size and thread pitch, their clamp load ability, and the tensile strength. It also listed the approx amount of stress that set-back variations imparted on the surfaces of the transom and motor bracket. Did anyone read it? Did anyone read the warning and advice of the author to check these weekly, and to make sure the bolts were up to the grade? I'm with Sam on this one, I don't believe it left Baker's without the right attachments, and I "know" it's the owner and operator's responsibility to check and re-check the hardware regularly.
Say what you want of the magazine, but I know the fella that did the research and wrote the article, he wanted to help folks and keep these sort of things from happening. CB

Rickracer
04-25-2001, 12:54 PM
Sam, I was/am not pointing any fingers. Lots of things could have happened to the rigging on this boat after it left your shop. The point I hope everyone takes from all of this discussion is that you should never take anything for granted. Nobody is perfect, and parts do fail. Wicky mentioned that the placement of those bolts didn't look right to him, but who was he to second guess BMS? If the boat had been mine, it would have never seen the water till I had put bolts in the top holes of that setback bracket. I do think I would rather deal with a little rust on some grade 8s than have the rustproof but soft stainless bolts shear off. Again, I hope everybody will take this as a reminder how important it is to check your rigging on a regular basis, and when in doubt, overkill is safer than "good enough".

RocketMan
04-25-2001, 01:22 PM
It's been a long time since I graduated from Engineering School, BSME 1970, Machine Design Specialty, but unless something has changed, we used (and still use) a formula that says:

SHEAR STRENGTH OF A BOLT = 0.577 x Proof Load of the bolt

"Proof Load is the the maximum tensile load a bolt can withstand without incurring a permanent set. It is roughly equivalent to such terms as elastic limit or yield strength." This sport fans, means that a given bolt is only about half as strong in shear as it is in tension.

ALSO KEEP IN MIND: A 1/2 inch dia. fine thread bolt has a roughly 12.7% higher Proof Load than the same size coarse thread bolt of the same material.

ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT IN MACHINE DESIGN IS "FACTOR OF SAFETY": Always use a safety factor of 2 or 3. Especially if you ever plan on asking me to put my butt in the seat! Therefore, if the calculations say one bolt will hold the load ALWAYS use 2 or 3 to be sure. This will account for, shock loads, corrosion etc. Bolts are relatively cheap compared to boats and people.

A LAST POINT IS "STAINLESS STEEL": Stainless is just what it says, "STAIN" "LESS" meaning it won't rust or stain as much as carbon steel. IT IS NOT NECESSARILY STRONGER! Be careful how and where you use stainless bolts.

With that said, I only use fine thread grade 8 bolts (and lots of them) in high stress areas on all my high perf. and race boats! I also use American Made bolts and not some imported garbage from the local hardware store! I keep an eye out for excessive corrosion and change the bolts if they really start to rust.

As owners/drivers of high performance boats we own the FINAL responsibility of making sure the boat is in safe operating condition. Just like the "owner is responsible for tightening the lug nuts on their trailer".

Memo to Sam: For manufactured comodities, NEVER confuse price with quality! Volume or "what the market will bear" usually sets price points. Besides, I never found anything OMC made that I couldn't or didn't break!

Paul Messinger



[Edited by RocketMan on 04-26-2001 at 12:23 PM]

daytona
04-25-2001, 02:28 PM
Sam please address the problem with wickys boat. don't tell us about what you are rigging next month or how long your dad has been racing.If omc is sending you bad bolts say so. If someone in your shop put the wrong bolts{grade 3} in say so. We have belived in you so long, don't bull**** us now. still faithful, rick martin 360 331 8212

[Edited by daytona on 04-25-2001 at 02:39 PM]

jimmyb
04-25-2001, 02:51 PM
rocketman: thanks for adding the .577 * proof strength= shearstrength

the mechanical engineer in me was having fits as well! :)


one quick word of caution:

Dont get overly scared reading about bolt failure and go out and tighten all your bolts as tight as they will go!!! DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN AND YEILD THE BOLTS! Otherwise they may break easier than an under torqued bolt!

04-25-2001, 03:01 PM
Evertime Sam. Always everytime. The bolts did not loosen one bit guaranteed. Dont go there. Lets learn from mistakes. I know now to go with my gut instinct. I should have changed and moved those bolts when I first picked up the Ally. Now, I guarantee you those bolts were placed incorrectly after finding out the hard way.
Sam, please make sure all your boats have the best bolts in the right places.
Please guys, we all know the ultimate risk we are taking evertime we haul ass in our little boats. Their is human error and there is mechanical failure. If you don't accept both then go fly a kite. I'm sorry this happened Sam,
your a good guy, and you do quality work. We all have made mistakes. But have we all fixed them?
Time for a cell phone call,
Wicky

Barney
04-25-2001, 07:16 PM
Sam it troubles me greatly to hear you back peddling.

Nobody was hurt, you have no liability to pay except in the public eye. It was Baker rigging, the bolts were tight. I took them to a steel yard today and I quote, 2 of these are grade 5, the rest are what we call non-grade or bull****.

I changed Wicky's bolt to grade 8, I carry a large assortment of links, 4" grade 8, are about $30 for 25 bolt, I not sure what the cheap ones go for, but it does seem you are packing a nice margin at $10 bucks each (retail).

I started this thread. I was the only one pointing fingers.
I also changed all the bolts on Wickys transom and still have the guestionable bolts in my possession.

I personally was hoping you would have a different posture, I left the original thread as is, then began to soften it. I have always had a great deal of respect for your entire family, read my posts again.

Not everybody comes from your line of high performance boating, you do owe others of less experience the benefit of your experience. Please do not sink to little anti-liability slogans, have more respect for the rest of us please!

Your rigging compared to the rest of the worlds did not hold up on this particular day.

A simple appoligy, "I'll make sure we are using the best bolts" kind of statement. Maybe some Baker memoribila or something for Wicky's family to put some trust back in the boat!

It was Wicky's boating and your business that could suffer here, why don't you contact his family, do something nice for them. Create some good will through some of your own.

Remember, your the one selling boats, we are buying them!

Techno
04-25-2001, 07:51 PM
One thing that troubles me is didn't anyone notice the bolts in the mid position on the jack plate?

Rickracer
04-25-2001, 08:20 PM
Wicky did notice that, but figured if the Bakers rigged it that way, it must be OK.

Barney
04-25-2001, 09:29 PM
The bolts that broke were through the setback plate holding the front and back halves together.

There were no problems with the thru-transom bolts to the best of my knowledge.

I would check them now Wicky!

Fl Boy in ILL
04-25-2001, 09:56 PM
I to have been doing this boating thing for quite a while and as the original owner I ASSUMED that this was the proper way the plates were put together. I also checked bolts frequently and never found them to be loose, when I owned the boat I took it out at least once a month even Nov. Dec. and Jan here in ILL. Now I also have to wonder does the plate already come together from ALLISON? I picked up my new Allison with a similar setback and hydraulic plate already installed?? If this is the case then it is a factory thing and not the dealer. Sam you guys have rigged I would guess hundreds of these boats is this the case? Have I opened up another can of worms?

Rick Conklin

Barney
04-25-2001, 11:30 PM
The bolts in the entire assembly matched with the exception of 2 grade 5 bolts. Unfortunatly, I did not note the location the grade 5's were placed.

I also read above the suggestion we DO NOT run out and tighten your bolts. If your using grade 8 fine thread bolts, tighten them down, you will not weaken or snap them by hand.

Take this whole thread for what it is worth, this is a wake up call for everyone, especially the Bakers, who may believe that they are without fault.

Bottom Line it is your ass on the line when you are running fast. Do not trust your ass to anyone but yourself, regardless how many boats they have rigged, check it!

Do not pay extra for "reputation" if it only counts when you look good.

Hey Techno, Rickracer and I were running boats ourselves, we did check our equipment, Wicky checked his and trusted Baker rigging. That's why we did not notice.

There is one other small bit of relevant information here, this is not Wicky's first boat, but this is the first time a motor was on the outside of his boat. He is one on dem Big Block Converts! musta had one too many spankins, right Wick! You can hardly expect a car boat guy to check his transom bolts, never had em before!

alan knight
04-26-2001, 06:54 AM
First of all I think your bolt prices you refer to are a little far fetched . I have rigged many V 8 motors and have never used anything greater than grade 5 bolts. got a five gal bucket full of merc fine thread bolts, bought at year end auction, and never had one break or shear. Hell! don`t no what grade they are. Bottom bolts on O/B transom appl. are compression under power anyway. You can check the integrity of the bolts used in any jack plate or outboard and find they are not nearly as strong or stronger than a grade 5. In closing, impact wrenches are wonderful tools but no substitute for a hand and wrench feel as some times when using stainless (one forgetting to use neverseize) bolts and nuts together gauling sets in, giving the illusion that the fastener is tight. This may have been the case of the above mentioned incident as most shearing is brought on by slack.

Rickracer
04-26-2001, 07:17 AM
No disrespect intended, but if you are rigging boats with bolts that you don't even know the quality/grade of, you are ripe for causing a situation such as what happened on Wicky's boat. Anybody that wants to can theorize that this should have never happened, that lots of people rig this way, that nothing could have been done to prevent it from happening, or that somehow the fault lies with the bolts being over tightened, or galled up by impact wrenches. The fact remains, it did happen, and the bolts weren't stretched, nor galled. This was not a case of galling, nor were the failed bolts in compression. They were in shear. They were simply an inferior grade of bolt, placed in a position for the setback plate to have more leverage on them than they were capable of withstanding. It's really very simple. This should be a wake up call to ANYONE doing rigging. High quality fasteners are a must, and overkill is safer, especially when we are pushing the envelope.

Brad Zastrow
04-26-2001, 10:55 AM
Allisons capable of 100 mph or any other boat that is considered high perfomance needs an owner to look the boat over once in while. Every fast boat I have owned (5 so far)has had the transom bolts loosen on me. Lower units bolts come loose as well. Hydraulic steering bolts will come loose. I have sheared a lower unit clean off a twin engine boat, thank god or I would have been toast. Merc said keep the bolts tight. I have broke the hydraulic steering bracket bolts on another. Have you ever looked at your motor in rough water at high speed with solid motor mounts? The things are shaking themselves apart. I have seen more than a few boats snap bolts, even mine. Now that I wrench the boat once every few weeks no more problems. Sheared bolts are from being loose. Bakers rigging is 1st class. Do not blame Baker's for a used boat that who knows what it has gone through or had done since. How often were the bolts checked? Never, is my guess like most boaters.

Barney
04-26-2001, 11:47 AM
First of all, do not compare your privledged experience to that of others. I have seen your boats, I even own one!

It is noble of you to stick up for an oragnization that has treated you well, but please spare us the comparison of the $100,000's of dollars you spend to the $15,000 or so Wicky spent.

You can make all the guesses you want, but all your money does not make you right here, sorry. Maybe there are some that feel you are expert talking about something you have no knowledge of, but you ain't buying **** from me, so save that BS for the cronies you are paying!

The more you dummies push to make a point for the Bakers fine work, the worse you are making it for them.

What the hell is wrong with the possibilities that someone in their organization made a mistake? There is no liability, only the chance for the Bakers to share some good will and create something positive safty messages for all of us.

I hope everyone that was planning to spend any of their boating dollars with the Bakers ahs a chance to see how much integrity that organization really has.

Damn Brad, don't you get it, Baker Marine is the only one with something to loose here, why are they hiding in the shadows. As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to scurry back there yourself.

jimmyb
04-26-2001, 12:34 PM
geez, this whole thing seems to be a personal attack on the baker's now... what gives? At first this seemed to be a FYI to let people know about checking their mounting bolts, now it seems like a personal vendetta to smear a boat dealer's reputation. And NO, I have no affiliation with the bakers and I have never bought anything from them...

are there any pictures of this mystery broken bolts? please post a location where i can see them or email them to me...

mercrazy
04-26-2001, 01:06 PM
lighten up a little guys. i understand how serious this was, but it sounds like a lynch party here. i don't know baker or his riggers but if i had a question about the setup i would ask before using it. my boat and my life are my responsibility and i wouldn't trust baker or anybody else with it. sounds like the top bolts should have been in because they would have had the most leverage to hold the engine in place. as for the other bolts, in order for a bolt to shear, it has to slip first. if the set-back plate is aluminum, it must be extra thick matarial or it would have enlarged the holes. i can't see how it could shear any steel bolt unless it was loose and impacting it back and forth several times or hit something in the water.

Barney
04-26-2001, 02:35 PM
It is not a lynching of the Bakers.

This was and still is meant to be an awareness issue, for everyone.

So why is it that there are still questions regarding the tightness of the bolts? Due to idea you are unable to "see" how, does that now make it beyond possibility?

At the time and place of this incident, it was all very dramtic. We discussed it over the next couple days, one point that kept coming up was how to prevent this from happening again. The idea that we are all responisble for ourselves is true, but were asking everyone to look after each other too. Those with the most experience that are willing to share can educate. When the possiblity of any wrong doing, now or ever, is brought up as some blanket non-liabilty testimomnial, what is it we are learning there.

We were looking for The Bakers to lead the way, to check at home to make sure everything is as it should be. Because surely if an organization such as the Bakers are capable of a mistake, with there long rich history of racing AND winning, then we all better be on our toes with our safty points, and double check everything, because it is yo ass on the line!

It was going to be a chance for The Bakers Marine to be in the spotlight, how they reacted was entirely up to them!

DaveR
04-26-2001, 03:35 PM
EXCELLENT point with the never-sieze. I've used stainless fastners for years with no trouble (thankfully). Just reciently I tightened some fastners by hand tools to what I thought was very tight. I had not used never-sieze. I felt no further movement of the tools and thought I was done. Wrong!! They were not tight, and had gauled to the extent I could not back them off. I had to cut them off. DON'T forget to use never-sieze with stainless fastners!

This thread is getting awfully long, but I thought this was worth saying again.

Sam Baker
04-27-2001, 09:06 AM
It was the bolts holding the jack plate together? I thought it was the ones holding the motor on the boat. We have nothing to do with those bolts, the jack plate manufacturer does. As of now though, nobody's yet to tell me who's boat this was originally. I have no idea what boat you're talking about at this point. Allisons (if it is in fact an Allison) sends the boats to us with the jackplates installed. We have very little input as to the jack plates themselves. Let's get this cleared up.

Sam

Brad Zastrow
04-27-2001, 01:02 PM
Barney,
Take your bashing somewhere else.....

Barney
04-27-2001, 01:16 PM
Or are you suggesting that I was bashing you?

Bakers?

Someone of your wealth and stature surly could not be bothered by little ole me. I'm a nobody!

I would have been nothing but pleasent to you Brad, had you chosen to communicate like a man. Within the last year, you have never reponded to any of my email. I knew one day we would cross paths, again!!!! hmmmm, I guess we'll see just what kind of man you are now, won't we.

So how come Brad, you choose to jump in now, but when I was contacting you, I never recieved a reply?

Now, you would like me to carry on my work at some other location, did you have somewhere specific in mind?

And just so we get it out in the open, unless your hiding something, is there anything else you would like to tell me?

I do hope you are man enough to continue our conversation.

Yours truly,
Barney