carbon fiber reeds, options pros cons

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Building a 2.4 200, pretty much stock, new rings and bearings, while its in parts I want to pull out the original 1988ish reeds and upgrade.

[bullwhipjkg]

no cons that I know just positive

[jdewaard]

Run the regular fiberglass type reeds like Chris Carson's. I have heard that the carbon fiber are too stiff and also carry a premium price. Contact Chris Carson for your application. He will be more than happy to guide you in the right direction and you will be happy you did. http://www.chriscarsonmarine.com/reed-valves.htm

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

We make several epoxy/glass reeds to fit your motor,what use and rpm are you planning?

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We make several epoxy/glass reeds to fit your motor,what use and rpm are you planning?building a 2.4 200, like to turn it around 6-7k , its going on a 15" mid on my vking when I get it done. Motor will be kinda stock , maybe a little work

[davemvegas]

chris carson reeds. very good reeds . and a great co to deal with.

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

building a 2.4 200, like to turn it around 6-7k , its going on a 15" mid on my vking when I get it done. Motor will be kinda stock , maybe a little work
I would recommend our 265R,120$,will run 7500 rpm for hours and hours...you wont wear them out,and still have good idle/midrange,Chris

[Forkin' Crazy]

Run the regular fiberglass type reeds like Chris Carson's. I have heard that the carbon fiber are too stiff and also carry a premium price. Contact Chris Carson for your application. He will be more than happy to guide you in the right direction and you will be happy you did. http://www.chriscarsonmarine.com/reed-valves.htm

I don't know where you heard this, but it's simply NOT true. Been running Boyesen reeds in my crossflows for years. The only time I had a reed failure, it was not caused by the reed, but a gross lean condition.

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

I don't know where you heard this, but it's simply NOT true. Been running Boyesen reeds in my crossflows for years. The only time I had a reed failure, it was not caused by the reed, but a gross lean condition.Forkin,just so I understand,what was it that jedward said that "simply isn't true"?Nothing was mentioned about reed failures at all,and I assume you know that your black(died resin black to simulate the "carbon fiber look")Boys are epoxy glass...not carbon fiber.Respectfully,Chris

[Forkin' Crazy]

OK, thanks for straightening me out on that Cris. I just check Boyesen's site and you can't even get carbon fiber reeds for a 2.4 anyway it appears. Or for hi-perf for that matter. Or their website is wrong... ?

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Forkin',I believe you'er correct,in the catalog they list a couple race reeds for the seven petal cages,thats about all.It is interesting to note that the carbon race reeds are single stage as well...go figure.After extensive tests here on our boats and dynos I've always found single stage reeds to perform very well,providing the correct stiffness reed is used.
And yes,after our testing we decided to stay with epoxy/glass for most reeds,with the understanding that carbon thin enough to perform chipped fairly quickly,thick enough to live in a lake motor lost performance.We do make some carbon reeds for the very high rpm,short lived,pro class hydro motors...very stiff,narrow opening,very high rpm...these would be an instant governer for our outboards.Next time you need reeds give us a try,they will be a natural color,as the dye used to color the resin actually is a colored filler powder,weakening the resin bond and strength.We will choose a thickness and layup to best suit your application,satisfaction guaranteed,Chris

[Forkin' Crazy]

I was just thinking that, I will Chris. I have a 200 mag I have to go through next.

What about rubber cages with the CF reeds?

[ChrisCarsonMarine]

Honestly haven't tried carbon on the rubber coated cages,so I don't know how they would do..but our 023 race version (264r) works great,I think you would be pleased,Chris

[jdewaard]

Forkin,just so I understand,what was it that jedward said that "simply isn't true"?Nothing was mentioned about reed failures at all,and I assume you know that your black(died resin black to simulate the "carbon fiber look")Boys are epoxy glass...not carbon fiber.Respectfully,Chris

Thank you for helping clarify that on my behalf. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I was not aware you made carbon fiber reeds as well. the only ones I had heard of or seen was TDR.

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I would recommend our 265R,120$,will run 7500 rpm for hours and hours...you wont wear them out,and still have good idle/midrange,Chriswonderful sounds good. Thank you. Donnie

[Lockjaw]

I have run Boyesen's in 3 different engines, and all 3 ran better.

[hydro]

Originally Posted by racer OMC reed test results (non race)

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First a little about the engine used for the test, it is a 183 cubic inch production based engine basically built to ODBA pro carb rules minus compression and a modified intake. It was tested with 155 psi compression and untouched intake manifolds, reed cages were lapped for inproved seal. Stock factory ignition except for a race flywheel. Mid section used was stock except for water routing needed for dyno use.

Dyno is a superflow with windyn data, room is about 12X18. Exhaust is thru a large muffler (city req.) and water supply from a 10K gallon tank, I thus can control water feed in volume and pressure to the engine cooling. Air parameters for the test were very close.

A base line beyond test parameters was established before the high compression heads and modified intake were removed, in this trim it made 400.5 horsepower after testing was complete it was retested to verify condition of engine and it made 399.4. After each reed test compression and leakdown were performed and they remained very consistent. If a test was done on a different day, the previous test was rerun to verify accuracy, no change more than .5 horsepower was noted.

Tests were run using 110 race fuel and 40 to 1 oil. Tests were controlled to the best of my ability including engine temp, I am including one run at a lower temp so you can see the difference it makes. All reeds were cycled thru different rpm ranges to verify reed durability, then a minimum of three pulls were performed.

First reeds tested stock prodution steel reeds with stops.
Peak torque 286.9 @5800
Average from 6000 to 7500
Torque 264.6 HP 338.8 Pounds fuel hour 197.7 BSFC .606
Average from 6500 to 7500
Torque 258.8 HP 343.6 Fuel 191.2 BSFC .577
Engine temp 128 degrees Horsepower fall off from peak to 7500 -19.6HP
EGT 1090

Second reeds Boysen 166 no stops
Peak torque 298.3 @5500/5800
Average from 6000 to 7500
Torque 275.2 HP 352.8 Fuel 212.7 BSFC .625
Average from 6500 to 7500
Torque 269.1 HP 358.2 Fuel 207.2 BSFC .599
Engine temp 129 degrees HP fall off peak to 7500 -4.2HP EGT 1070

Third Chris Carson .022 yellow with stops at 128 degree temp
Peak torque 283.2 @5600
Average from 6000 to 7500
Torque 264.1 HP 338.5 Fuel 196.6 BSFC .603
Average from 6500 to 7500
Torque 258.9 HP 344.5 Fuel 196.6 BSFC .592
Fall off 14.8 Hp EGT 1090

Same reeds at 119 temp
Peak torque 288.2 @5700
6000 to 7500
Torque 267.7 HP 343.2 Fuel 191.8 BSFC .577
6500 to 7500
Torque 262.4 HP 349.3 Fuel 192.4 BSFC .569
Fall off Peak to 7500 -11.6 EGT 1090
So you can see temp also effects these engines

Fourth TDR .022 white with stops
Peak torque 291.2 @5600
Average from 6000 to 7500
Torque 267.8 HP 343.2 Fuel 202 BSFC .615
Average 6500 to 7500
Torque 261.9 HP 348.4 Fuel 198 BSFC .591
Engine temp 126
Fall off peak to 7500 -7.8 EGT 1090

Of note,
All averages done by the computor, accel rate same for all and controlled by the computor at 600 rpm gain per second
All reeds in tack after test but Boysen had a few slightly open, causing a slight spit on restart
Best idle quality and starting Carson and TDR
Loudest intake noise Boysen

I am going to try and test thinner race type reeds on cut cages once I get some time including some sent that did not meet this tests parameters, one already tested. The above are reeds that should live well in every day use. Pictures to follow in a few days.

I would like to thank both Tony and Chris for their participation in this test. Total time involved 16 Hours two guys, fuel burned to much

[Mr. Demeanor]

Im just going to throw in my recent experience.
3 sets of Boyesens and they wouldnt last anything over 7000rpm. Literally broke every single time I went over 7000.
Chris cut me a custom set out of his material to fit my cages and I probably have 20 hours on them at rpm up near 8000 at times.
Nothing but CCM reeds for me.

[olboatman]

Hydro Thanks for posting the reed test results. Very interesting -- most notably the temp. info. Gary

[hydro]

I'll throw in my recent experience.As a designer and Card carrying Tool & Die Maker if you set up Boysen reeds correctly they will turn 7200 every day.I looked at mine after 3 yrs of running a Bob Kottman engine and there are no chips, ALL reeds still seat perfectly and I never get cold spitting or coughing.They also still idle at 700 rpm flawlessly.

[Lockjaw]

Im just going to throw in my recent experience.
3 sets of Boyesens and they wouldnt last anything over 7000rpm. Literally broke every single time I went over 7000.
Chris cut me a custom set out of his material to fit my cages and I probably have 20 hours on them at rpm up near 8000 at times.
Nothing but CCM reeds for me.

I haven't turned any that high, and haven't had any issues with a stock or mild motor. I put a set in a 70hp OMC, made a diff. I had a set in my 89 GT175 that ran well until it lunched a piston, and have been running a set in my Eagle 150 for a while now with no issues. All engines started and idled better with the aftermarket reeds.

[wired247]

I'll throw in my recent experience.As a designer and Card carrying Tool & Die Maker if you set up Boysen reeds correctly they will turn 7200 every day.I looked at mine after 3 yrs of running a Bob Kottman engine and there are no chips, ALL reeds still seat perfectly and I never get cold spitting or coughing.They also still idle at 700 rpm flawlessly.

When did you guys get cards? Man, I never get cards.

[Jay Smith]

I use the TDR resin reed in every motor I build from race to recreational . IMO I don't care for or will install carbon fiber reeds in any motor I build , I observe when they come to my shop for rebuilds when they fail they break off in huge chunks...

Jay

[bobthebuilder]

I run the CCM's on cages I removed the rubber coating from and did some very fine careful filing and lapping on a lapping block.. Seals great and runs great also. My next experimental project this summer will be milling on a 2.5 front 1/2 to accept the 6 pedal OPTI reed cages.. Then I will cut the front 1/2 reduce the volume.. I usually cut them .050 but think I might do more as the cages will have a little more clearance from the rods. Sorry I didn't mean to hijack the thread.. when I do it I will do my own thread here..