took apart my first V6 merc and?

[53w]

I disassembled my first Merc v6, it is a Sea Ray 2.0 135hp late 1980's model. Engine was ran out of oil and stuck 3 pistons and one scuffed other two look good. The block needs to be honed and bored the 3 bad cylinders. all bearing and crank looks fine. When I took top bearing cap off all the needles and cage went flying, I was not expecting loose needles, is this correct or is there a top bearing problem?
The popet valve I think was stuck had very hard time removing it, should this be easy in easy out assembly?
When rebuilding an older merc v6 what else should get replaced, oil pump, hoses, ect?
The oil pump oil line failed and that's what stuck the motor.
I was told that the oil pump shaft bearing goes bad a seizes up and breaks the shaft off? I assuming this bearing should be changed out at this time?

I am going to use a manual to reassemble, any tricks or tips on reassembly of one that is not in the book?

I was told for an easy small hp gain cut the heads .030 and raise Ex ports .030 while it is apart?

Darrel

[ZHenderson84]

I would do away w yur oiler and mix it yourself. Never trusted those things.

[ZHenderson84]

Depending on how messed up cylinder walls are you might hafta bore it .030 over anyways also. Shaving your heads would b a good hp gain for you also.

[53w]

what about the top roller bearing, are the rollers suppose to fall out?

[mn808gade]

no. whats your ser # ??

[tlwjkw]

what about the top roller bearing, are the rollers suppose to fall out?

Yeah. 'fraid they can and usually do. They should have a one piece metal cage that probably stayed in tha cap. Didn't lose any of 'em did ya? Although if it lost tha oiler ya might wanna change ALL tha bearings even if they "look good"........that would put a lotta heat in tha whole motor!

[ZHenderson84]

U agree they sometimes do fall outa tha cages.just put some grease in tha cage in tha cap n putem back in.

[CVX20SPRINT]

I'd be taking a close look at the crank where the top bearing rides.I'd bet the crank is toast.

[donmac]

I install the rods on the crank with the motor upright, not laying sideways! if you have a wandering needle it doesn't fall into the block! saves a lot of cursin!and possibly saves your motor!

[53w]

The crank is ok, nothing was blued or show signs of extreme heat in the crank train. The 4 of the 6 pistons stuck. Wondering if it had bad water pump and no oil?
Was first time out for the season, they took it out of storage and tried to run it across the lake, never made it. Most likely alarming out the whole way. The whole Sea-Ray rig was giving to my cousin who worked as their grounds keeper, trailer and all. They just went and bought a new one that same day was back on the water in 2 hours.
So I am trying to fix the engine for my cousin to use the boat.

[53w]

Why are the rods painted black? Do I need to remove the paint?

[scc82]

The needle bearings are loose in that motor and will fall out. There is a metal cage that aligns them. A little grease is all you need to put them back together. The rods have black paint on them and you don't need to remove it that's the way they came. I would premix the motor and loose the oil injection. They are great motors IMO.
Stan carson

[53w]

I am putting this 135 2.0L back together finally. I noticed I did loose some needles when they fell out. It was close to the floor drain so they are gone. I am looking for a good used set of needle if any one has them. please PM me.
Thanks
Darrel

[TEXAS20225]

wow they are cheap new at pro marine

[TEXAS20225]

if the oiler was gone i would not even consider reusing any old bearings at all they are cheap both ends of rods and all the crank bearings but then i rebuild them all year long, year after year i dont like rebuilding one for a few bucks

[53w]

I will look them up at pro marine thanks

[53w]

I noticed that the factory rod bolts had red Loctite on them when I removed them, the manual that I am using does not mention doing this to reassemble?

what do you guys used to seal up the case and block together?

any tricks to getting wrist pin clips in the pistons?

thanks
53w

[TEXAS20225]

what manual are you looking at ? everyone i have reads red 271 required? i use red gel-seal along with new cork; unless its a late model block which has no cork then just red gel seal

[wired247]

what manual are you looking at ? everyone i have reads red 271 required? i use red gel-seal along with new cork; unless its a late model block which has no cork then just red gel seal

90-824052R3 JUNE 2002 4A-40 - POWERHEAD

11. Place connecting rod cap on connecting rod.
Apply light oil to threads and face of connecting
rod bolts. Thread connecting rod bolts finger-tight
while checking for correct alignment of the rod
cap as shown.

12. Tighten connecting rod bolts (using a 5/16 in. - 12
point socket). First torque to 15 lb. in. (1.5 N·m)
then 30 lb. ft. (40.5 N·m). Turn each bolt an additional
90° after 2nd torque is attained. Recheck
alignment between rod cap and rod as shown


Thats what it says.

[TEXAS20225]

oh yeah i forgot about the oring head motors but i still dont do the quarter turn deal its too scary and istill do loktite and they still dont blow up in 5 hours

[tlwjkw]

any tricks to getting wrist pin clips in the pistons?

thanks
53w

Tha wrist pin/clippy install tool is worth twice what it cost......3 cent drop a loc tight is worth it also. If nothin' else ya sleep better at night.......Besides its an "ole school" thing that's hard ta break 'less ya an "over nite" guru!

Bobby think tha worded "loc tite" use went away same time tha stupid assed "torque ta yield" thing made its debut!!! Guess maybe shouldn't say that. Probably just fine for tha normal boat guy but not for folks that keep close tabs on whats goin' on in a 10 ta 20+ grand hot rod.......or build LOTTSA motors....:reddevil:

Oh yeah. 3 more weeks and countin' till I can drive again! Woo Hoo!!!!

[flabum1017]

Loctite is your friend if you happen to miss on the torque..... :D

[wired247]

A properly torqued and stretched TTY bolt needs no loctite and does not brenefit from its use but if it makes you feel good do whatever makes you feel that way. Loctite is as good a lube as oil. On old school reusable bolts that do not deform its good insurance to use loctite. That would be an '88-89. The post 92 and ANY TTY bolt should be thrown in the trash as soon as they are untorqued. Head bolts included.

[johnboy 88 vegas]

I do 42 lbs on tq regardless of TTY bolts or not which is what 30lb+90* usually makes. What I will say is that the TTY rod bolts have a bad habit of ringing off when being reused....unless you back off on the tq# to about 36-38 lbs. If you have TTY bolts then I would invest in new ones just for cheap security....that being said I have seen plenty of other people reuse them without a problem...luck of the draw I guess. On the flip side....TTY head bolts I will reuse all the time with no problems.

[tlwjkw]

If it ever got out ya might be surprised how just how many folks do re use 'em...........

[johnboy 88 vegas]

Don't get me wrong they are reusable for my personal motors just not what I'll build for a customer that might cost me money in the long run. The ironic part is that the first 3 TTY rod bolts I snapped when torquing was on my personal hotrod steel motor....what a surprise when I try to reuse every part possible on my own guinney pig. Then had 2 snap on a friend's rebuild. That was quite a few years ago but it has stuck in the back of my head ever since then. Luck of the draw cause I always reused them before that.

[tlwjkw]

Understand. Its kinda hard for some to chunk a perfectly good lookin' bolt away no mater what kind it is.....
all my junk was old n already wore out so I never had ta worry 'bout it....


That would be an '88-89.

???

[johnboy 88 vegas]

My 85' model 2 liter has 8-9 thousands clearance on all the cast pistons and turns almost 7k almost every time out. Used parts everywhere except the rings so believe me I like raggedy sht too but when it comes to being an outboard mechanic you can't cut corners everywhere or it'll bite you in the a** eventually. Needless to say I don't want my wallet hurting over a few dollars on a customer's build.

[TEXAS20225]

i have reused hundreds and hundreds of rod bolts and head bolts! just because it says something in print somewhere does not make it so, the bolts only stretch once then i loctite it!! as far as longevity here is one for you Mercurys rebuild program sucks there long block are a mismatched bunch of parts i just sold a rebuilt motor to a guy who had a 2008 rebuilt long block as a core it had opti rods mixed with standard rods and 3 different size pistons in it

[wired247]

When I was a kid my dad was the VP of NDT for a really big construction company ( Daniel ) that built dams, nuke plants etc. He'd go to Dorman ( they build all the bolts that are worth a damn in the US ) and I go with him for bolt seminars, sealant seminars, etc. My dad would bring home ASTM tech manuals for me to read on bolts and fasteners and MAKE me read them and report back to him on what I had read. Went to engineering school down in TX and got more of it. I know 3, maybe 4 things really well. Bolts are one of them. A properly stretched bolt of ASTM Grade 8 or better can be reused many times. A Torque to Yield bolt should never, ever be reused except to hold flower pots on the wall. . LOTS of reasons for that and I could drag out all the words on paper that no one will believe because this is all apparently a belief system but lots of high dollar engineering went into those bolts and they have lived their life. Dragging them back from the dead to save $30 is certainly an option but ....

[TEXAS20225]

mike its like you saying your seat of the pants experience on rod slots overweigh's all the thousands of dyno test test done by real racers who know by results on paper what is effective and what isnt which side of the fence is it today??????

[wired247]

Thats not what I am saying Bobby. As an engineer what I am saying is that a lot of engineering and development that went into those factory bolts is there for a reason. That reason is because the factory wanted to save money in the long run on warranty repairs. Its an ROI thing. Torque to Yield fasteners are one time use items by design. I didnt make them that way nor am I making it up. Volumes of technical papers have been written and millions of dollars invested in developing them to do what they do and that is maximize clamping force to hold parts and gaskets together without failing. Using them way outside their design parameters to save a few bucks is just playing Russian Roulette. I throw a lot of what look like perfectly good bolts away but if I was doing it for a living I might think twice. If I was building race motors I wouldn't use TTY bolts at all. Never used them when I was building drag motors. Reusing TTY bolts isnt something anyone does as a best practice. Its something they do because its cheaper.

As far as the never ending rod slot debate goes the factory put rod slots there for a reason too. Go far outside the factory parameters and maybe they dont work as well but when I'm bumping the limiter at 90 MPH in a boat that should never go that fast with an ALMOST bone stock 225 pro max I'm not thinking anything got left on the table when Mercury put those substantial rod slots in there.

[TEXAS20225]

people who have a license to design must protect that item(License) with over kill and its widely know all the revisions that take place after initial exposure to john Q. i learned quite a bit in 40 years of steel fab, most engineers would not know a 6x 8.5# c channel from a jelly doughnut, after 20+ years of this motor stuff i really dont know how many rod and head bolts ive reused at least 200 anyway :rolleyes: first of all when i started this all this new stuff was not heard of so when it came out i studied it kept what was usable tossed the rest so im the wrong guy to try to dazzle with paper work when over all that length of time not a single motor lost a rod bolt or did a head bolt snap off and start the motor to fail my almost 70 years of age and hands on experience says something totally different. and yes i was rebuilding motors before i retired some years ago it was my let off the steam job after i got a full day of corporate America

[6Killer]

Bobby, you know that experience doesn't count.

Now go and sit quietly.....

[TEXAS20225]

whimper ,whimper ok

[wired247]

Critical bolts in any engine are...

a. The main bolts. Mercury doesn't use torque to yield bolts in that application because its not a true load bearing main. The full diameter steel races take the brunt of the loading so low stretch large diameter bolts will suffice.

b. The head bolts. In a late Mercury they are torque to yield but are full threaded and large diameter and are not very critical. They are grade 8 and are completely usable without torquing to yield but once they have been deformed they dont go back . The head gaskets take up most of the bolt stretch and the deformation is relatively small. Changing them doesn't matter all that much. A blown or leaky head gasket is the worst that will happen if they have really lost their give. Most TTY bolts are good for 6 stretch cycles including pre-torque with the exception being reduced shank TTY bolts.

c. Rod bolts. Mercury uses true reduced shank TTY rod bolts just like Porsches use. They elongate on the reduced shank once they have been pre torqued and fully stretched and NEVER return to the original specs. Can they be reused? Sure they can. Will they ever be 100% again? Absolutely not. They are always going to be an enhanced potential failure point. Ask a Porsche mechanic if he would re-use reduced shank TTY rod bolts. The answer would be no with a bunch of sneering.

[53w]

thank for all the inputs!! I am using a aftermarket manual..... so it also say nothing about using new rod bolts???? After reading all of your views on this subject what does the real factory manual really say far as reusing rod bolt ? engine is a 1989-90 2.0 135hp v6 sea-ray?

[wired247]

You dont have torque to yield rod bolts in your motor. Factory didnt supply those until post '91. Red loctite away.

[53w]

Thanks for all the help!!! I also went to cousins marina and borrowed there piston clip insert tool today:thumbsup:. I see much better results happening tonight!!! I just got two sore thumbs and mad last night, no clips even close to going in to the pistons:p. Who ever told me to just push them in needs a kick in the pants:mad:!! My cousins just laughed at me for even trying it!!!

[wired247]

Thanks for all the help!!! I also went to cousins marina and borrowed there piston clip insert tool today:thumbsup:. I see much better results happening tonight!!! I just got two sore thumbs and mad last night, no clips even close to going in to the pistons:p. Who ever told me to just push them in needs a kick in the pants:mad:!! My cousins just laughed at me for even trying it!!!

Once you get a hang of it its not that bad. Needle nose pliers into the recess with the back side of the clip and push the ends in with a small screwdriver.

[wfowahoo]

How do you identify a tty bolt vs. a old school bolt.

[tlwjkw]

Once you get a hang of it its not that bad. Needle nose pliers into the recess with the back side of the clip and push the ends in with a small screwdriver.

BlaaawwwHa! Bobby, you n Chris just stay in tha truck. After all its only one (V6 Merc) motor ever coupla years.............Maybe:reddevil:

[wired247]

BlaaawwwHa! Bobby, you n Chris just stay in tha truck. After all its only one motor ever coupla years.............Maybe:reddevil:

I sure wish that was the case.

[TEXAS20225]

nawh they dont last that long with all the edumacation forest is not visible too many trees in da way, remember your in a conversation with a know it all guy who just went over 80 mph in the last YEAR !!!! WOW i would hate to think i had to put in 12 clips like that:eek::eek::D

[wired247]

nawh they dont last that long with all the edumacation forest is not visible too many trees in da way, remember your in a conversation with a know it all guy who just went over 80 mph in the last YEAR !!!! WOW i would hate to think i had to put in 12 clips like that:eek::eek::D

Oh come on. 80 MPH. That had to have been 2 or 3 motors ago :). Little to do with motors anyway . The hydraulic steering made all the difference.

[tlwjkw]

Uh-oh! Ya gotta remember we use a different service than tha IRS. Web sites we all get on seem ta hold on ta things a little longer...........:leaving:

Oh. Fixed my other post to.

[53w]

Ok next question.

Do it put the crank and end caps in the block and put front half on, then put the pistons and rods in, and put rod caps and bearing in thru hole in front case?

Or do it put block end caps and crank in, then install rods and pistons, then put case front 1/2 on after rod caps are tight?

Once again after market manual not very clear.

[TEXAS20225]

install crank and caps i like to keep bottom cap slightly loose make absolutely sure center mains drop on the pins or your doomed before you start install pistons and rods checking each one after you install it with a few rotations on the crank making sure it binds up no where proceed with caution it is very addictive :D

[53w]

when do you put front 1/2 of case on? after crank, cap, but before rods are installed, or after crank, caps and rods are installed in block?

[TEXAS20225]

no its triple harder(next to crazy hard )and should not be attempted by any novice as caps could become installed wrong on the rods and Boom, to install piston without the front on it is suicide for a first timer:iagree: i dont do it at all because experience says bobby your asking for it;) torque it all and loctite it then install cork on front and i like to gelseal in side the cork gasket thst not under it its on the inside of the cork just in case it has something that does not seal