Hey OleGator, how 'bout a history lesson on Cow Bells?

[Raceman]

I don't know enough about em to ask specifics, so just whatever you remember about 'em's fine.

[Mark75H]

Where these a very limited factory driver only piece? Maybe only enough of them made for 10 boats or less?

I sure would like to see the tuner and exhaust outlet.....

[brianT2]

that sounds like a big fish story to me!!!;) you must be a heck of a driver to have pulled that feat off!!!:D one thing is for sure gators are sneaky, especially the older ones!!!;) did your rig look like this one?

[Raceman]

"that sounds like a big fish story to me"

Brian, it ain't nice to be doggin' old boat racers, specially when you're countin' on em to build you a motor, and Xtra specially when they're yo' dad.

[H2Onut]

OLEGATOR need to go for a ride in a certain Vector :eek: :D :) :confused:

[Jeff Ettinger]

Mark75h
If you can locate some photos of Havasu '70, look for Fred Miles boat boat. I believe he ran a down stacked mtr. I remember seeing the mtr on something out there. looking for pictures now but might take awhile.

[Mark75H]

Thanks for the suggestion, Jeff. There are a few photos of Twisters from '70 Havasu in the magazines....but the best pictures are of Jim Merten's boat. I suspect it probably was a cow bell Twister set up, but the only pictures are of the boat running ¼ from the front, right side of the boat (away from the exhaust side of the motor).

It's a real long shot to find personal photos of something rare like this.

Do you know what Miles' boat number was?

[Bruster]

Will you be at Mt. Dora in March?

[Raceman]

Well Jim, it's about time you came outta tha closet. Some secrets are just too good to keep.

[brianT2]

i was just foolin' raceman, i knew who it was when i read that duff daily story. i should have read some of DAD'S earlier posts, then i would have known sooner. heres the later picture of that molinari with fred van wag rear cowl on it. of course thats meself in the shot with it. hey GATOR you were pretty wore out after that parker race weren't you.;)

[Raceman]

Brian, I wuz just ribbin' you. I had no idea that you didn't know it from the beginning.

Bruce, what's the latest on the XS stickers?

[brianT2]

talked to OLEGATOR tonight about the cowbell. raceman, i took the liberty of using your twister for the drawing. i think this is close to what they may have looked like. maybe Dad can commentate on the shape/length/etc., but from what he could recall and describe to me this is what i came up with.

[Jeff Ettinger]

Gents,

Mark75H
Still looking for the pictures,but Fred Miles had His first Milesmaster there. Light yellow,I think, same boat Gary Peacock had for awhile. Ran it at Parker. Later, Al Martin and Chick Gagen changed it alittle and made Zonkercrafts. If my memory is working right Jim Merten did have the cowbell exhaust too. Miles boat was a single, but I can't remember the number. Brian, the drawing is pretty close, but the log was a tad loger. Yeah, it did sound neat.

[Bruster]

Hi Jim,
I would bring it to Mt. Dora but it won't fit on the airplane. Really I still don't have the motor together, I don't have 1 transfer port cover. I have talked to you before about this. Attached is a picture, I understand they are from the T-I/T-II motors. Can you help me find 1? It drives me nuts to have this boat, 99% of the parts to re-assemble a super nice, rare, race Merc motor and I just can't finish it.Transfer Port Cover (http://members.aol.com/mercmanwon/tpc.jpg)

[Bruster]

The motor is my 1250 Super B.P. S/N puts it in the 1971 year range. The motor has 3 intake ports and 2 exhaust. Thanks for looking!

[Bob V]

Post #16 gives an idea of what the "Cow Bell" twisters looked like. I can remember them running in Clearwater back around 1970 -1971, if memory serves me. They were not quite as loud as the stackers, but considerably louder then the Twisters. Got to love that sound....

[mercboat]

Hey Raceman,
Have you seen these Repro 1500XS decals on Ebay?
Ebay No. 220059062602.
They also make 850XS decals too. Resonable price.

[Astro]

is this it?

[willabee]

is this it?

No, that's a silo exhaust system and the red decals would make it a Twister, not a TI. Look at post #16 on this thread, brianT2 did a good job of showing what a cowbell looks like.

Where was the picture you posted taken? I can see the round "porthole" window and the wall colors in the background and that tells me it's a Mercury building somewhere. Our engine shop in Oshkosh had those colors and the Kiekhaefer round porthole windows, but that's not Oshkosh.....maybe Lake X?

[Fish]

I Thought The Twister Had A Big Water Discharge Tube Running Down From The Upper Part Of The Exhaust Log And The Twister 1 Had A Copper Elbow Discharge Under The Exhaust Log. Willabee Would Better Know As He Built Them And I Just Ran What Was Left Over.

Hey Gator, I was talking about old race motors with my dad the other day and the cowbell came up. First thing out of his mouth was I only remeber seeing one, and that was on JH's boat... sure made a racket as he came by me. :)

[Fish]

He is doing well gator, thanks for asking, and I will pass along the hello.

[mike farmer]

brian or gator is that also the boat mertin won with in miami?

[Raceman]

I Thought The Twister Had A Big Water Discharge Tube Running Down From The Upper Part Of The Exhaust Log And The Twister 1 Had A Copper Elbow Discharge Under The Exhaust Log. Willabee Would Better Know As He Built Them And I Just Ran What Was Left Over.

That's the way all of mine are.

[willabee]

Olegator is correct, the Twister had the upper dump and the TI had the lower......then there are the in between engines. The water dump was changed due to the discovery of a "hot pocket" at the top of the block after the Twisters were built. The fix was to let the water run through the problem area rather than dump it there. A guess would be the engineers made that change a few months after the Twister build had been completed. They no doubt learned of the problem from the failures that we would lay out for them after races.....mostly scored or burndt pistons. I bet Olegator saw more than a few of those when the Twisters started showing up at races.

Consequently, modified logs were installed on engines used by Mercury Racing.....OPC and Offshore. Since the engine pictured is sitting on a cart marked "shop" in a Mercury Marine building and has very "new looking" red decals on it, I assumed it is a Twister with the modified log. Of course it could be a TI with the wrong wraparound, Merc sure had plenty of them laying around and plenty of people that didn't really know or care which one belonged with which engine.

[Raceman]

I've got two T1's with different sized bottom dumps to further the confusion. I was thinking there was some minor difference between my 2 Twisters also in that area.......... size of fittings or something, but I can't remember, and if I say anything about lookin' Bruster's gonna give me crap about the shelf again:D ........... so I'll just leave it at can't remember until I remember to look.;)

[willabee]

to further the confusion. ........... so I'll just leave it at can't remember until I remember to look.;)

I didn't think this was going to be an issue, so I just went back and took a closer look at that photo. That engine also has the spacer on the dsh that the exhaust log bolts to, the TI bolted direct to the dsh.....no spacer. I really doubt that someone took the time to bolt a TI powerhead to a Twister dsh and then put the Twister cowling on it.....what would be the point of that? Anything is possible, but it is highly unlikely that that engine is a TI.

[Raceman]

:)

I'm sorry, but I don't see the confusion or what it is you want to go look at. We are talking about the engine on post #23.....I said it's a Twister and you think it's a TI because of the water dump. I explained the modified exhaust log, but I guess you're not buying that.

I didn't think this was going to be an issue, so I just went back and took a closer look at that photo. That engine also has the spacer on the dsh that the exhaust log bolts to, the TI bolted direct to the dsh.....no spacer. I really doubt that someone took the time to bolt a TI powerhead to a Twister dsh and then put the Twister cowling on it.....what would be the point of that? Anything is possible, but it is highly unlikely that that engine is a TI.

Hell, I was just respondin' to the comments on this page. I'd forgotten all about the red motor on the previous one. You're right, it seems to have a Twister mid and cowl.

As far as today's post, I was just sayin' that a couple of my Twister1's seem to have minor difference in the dump at the bottom, and I was thinkin' there were some differences in two of my Twisters (between themselves) also, but haven't looked lately. So.................. I was just makin' a casual observation that there seem to be at least 3 configurations, maybe 4.

Incidentally, the Twister that Brian posted in #16 is my engine. You can't see it from the picture because he did some work on it to draw the bottom into a cowbell. You'll notice that it has the Twister mid, NOT Twister 1. The stickers are original. The gearcase had never been off the engine at the time I bought it. The powerhead has never been off. The original owner said it had less than 10 hrs on it total. His daughter said less than 5 would be more like it. It was never on a raceboat, and rigged on that Switzer with 4 seats in the picture when new. It is bottom dump unlike my other red motors. How'z that for adding to confusion?

[Watermark]

Here is a note explaining Dick Summerfeldt's experience with Cow Bells...

Do not have photo of "Cow Bell" off Silo exhaust. I fabed one out of 304 stainless (extension of the vertical silo) - Big drop in torque and slight increase in RPM if limiter disconnected - therefore more HP but that is not what you want to achieve - torque is the key factor unless you are running very long straight-aways -
Tried prototype out at race in Binghampton NY - Crowd very unhappy - exceptional noise (150 ++ dsb) -
Tooning a 2-cycle exhaust system is an exacting science - The length and funnel end of exhaust chamber has to be designed to control the exhaust slugs to both close (on bounce back) the exhaust ports on intake and scavenge on the exhaust stroke to optimize the engine's T & HP within the desired RPM window being very small -
Mercury (Dr. Morgan) did a good job on extracting more power from the straight 6 in utilizing the "Silo" design but economics governed the manufacturing process - Should have been tubular design - Pressure drop and bounce back are power robbers - If you stand on a rocky shore where the big waves crash against the rocks and flow back into the incoming waves you will see some small semblance of the disaray caused at (9000 X 6) /2 - The V-6 (Morgan Engine) was a very efficient design - I did some of the early contributions in design but got involved in Toronado and Harrier fighter programs in Europe -

Dick Summerfeldt

[willabee]

That's the way all of mine are.

Well. if the Twister in post #16 is yours, then all of yours can't be that way. Raceman, you just have tooooooo much equipment.....that's why you get confused, it's hard to keep it all straight in one's mind :p .....just funin' with ya.

Got a question.....can you take the original Twister log with the top water dump and plug the top, install the elbow in the bottom and have a properly functioning water dump without any modification to the inside plates? I'm trying to remember what we had to do to resolve the "hot pocket" issue before the modified logs were available.

[willabee]

I was just sayin' that a couple of my Twister1's seem to have minor difference in the dump at the bottom, and I was thinkin' there were some differences in two of my Twisters (between themselves) also, but haven't looked lately. So.................. I was just makin' a casual observation that there seem to be at least 3 configurations, maybe 4...... How'z that for adding to confusion?

Let me try to add to the confusion on this subject. I wish that I could state that the following is fact, but I'm not positive, so the best I can say is this is the way I think this happened.

Merc built 100 Twisters at the Fond du lac boathouse and they all had the top dump. Then the problem with the "hot pocket" surfaced. Merc Racing, OPC and Offshore, installed a pipe plug in the top of the log, modified the inner plate(s) and drilled and tapped a hole in the bottom of the log to install the outlet fitting. I think these bottom holes were drilled in both the front and rear of the log and that two different size fittings were used. I think it was done that way simply due to lack of uniform instuctions on how engineering wanted the fix installed. I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least fifty of these type logs in the system between the two groups.

Then Merc decided to build fifty more Twisters and these were assembled with the new modified logs that had the dump on the bottom.....the same one that was put in the TI kit. That would make six different configurations for the Twister. I have a vague recollection of two different size fittings being used on the TI, but I can't say for sure.

Don't know if any of this is meaningful, just thought I'd mention how many possibilitys might be floating around out there. :)

[Old fiberglass]

Willabee you mentioned the later T1 cooling mods to the exhaust logs. Is that the water inlet and exit ports as seen on either end of the logs pictured below ??

[willabee]

Willabee you mentioned the later T1 cooling mods to the exhaust logs. Is that the water inlet and exit ports as seen on either end of the logs pictured below ??

The picture is a Twister log, it has the large fitting for water out at the top. Then I think it has been modified and the smaller fitting , also for water out has been installed on the bottom. If that is correct, the top fitting would be removed and the hole plugged. I have stared at the pictures and can not recall what, if anything, had to be done to the inner plate to complete the mod.

[Old fiberglass]

I have seen pictures of other Twisters with both top and bottom water dumps. Not sure how this works in the real world. Might have some more pratical info next week.

Below is a last known picture of the wing I have with red stripe Twisters dated 1971. It does not "appear" to have the top water dump. I have been told the wing ran better with 1250 BP stackers. Not sure if that is true or not.....

As a thought it looks like the Twisters with the silos add a fair amount of bulk and weight. Was that the case back in the day ??

[willabee]

I have seen pictures of other Twisters with both top and bottom water dumps. Not sure how this works in the real world. Might have some more pratical info next week.

Below is a last known picture of the wing I have with red stripe Twisters dated 1971. It does not "appear" to have the top water dump. I have been told the wing ran better with 1250 BP stackers. Not sure if that is true or not.....

As a thought it looks like the Twisters with the silos add a fair amount of bulk and weight. Was that the case back in the day ??

It was never intended that the Twister have both a top and bottom water dump, the idea was one or the other. I suppose some people with the top dump saw the engines with the bottom dump and added a bottom dump without closing the top. I don't recall seeing one run, but they were probably out there (Raceman.....configuration #7 ?).

The engine in your picture appears to have the exhaust spacer in the DSH, that says Twister to me. As previously discussed, there are at least three ways to end up with a Twister that does not have the upper water dump.

If you are talking about top end and running a course like Parker, a Wing with Twisters and super speedmasters would outperform one with 1250 stackers and BP lower units.

I don't recall the actual numbers anymore, but when you put the three pipes and the related plates against the silo system, there wasn't much of a difference in total weight.....I think the silo was just a bit heavier. You might find this hard to believe, but some guys liked the stacks hanging back there rather than the silo because they felt that if they got the boat into a blowover position, the pipes might help push the nose back down! I know I've seen that exact thing happen with single engine tunnels, maybe a twin ot two, but never with a Wing. I'm sure some of the other guys have seen an undamaged boat or two with the megaphones flattened and bent on about a 45 from the elbow.....that's a boat on it's way over but the pipes save it :).

Is that really the steering bar to connect the two engines bolted to the adapter for the speedmaster :confused: :eek: :confused:.

[John Schubert]

Here is a note explaining Dick Summerfeldt's experience with Cow Bells...

Do not have photo of "Cow Bell" off Silo exhaust. I fabed one out of 304 stainless (extension of the vertical silo) - Big drop in torque and slight increase in RPM if limiter disconnected - therefore more HP but that is not what you want to achieve - torque is the key factor unless you are running very long straight-aways -
Tried prototype out at race in Binghampton NY - Crowd very unhappy - exceptional noise (150 ++ dsb) -
Tooning a 2-cycle exhaust system is an exacting science - The length and funnel end of exhaust chamber has to be designed to control the exhaust slugs to both close (on bounce back) the exhaust ports on intake and scavenge on the exhaust stroke to optimize the engine's T & HP within the desired RPM window being very small -
Mercury (Dr. Morgan) did a good job on extracting more power from the straight 6 in utilizing the "Silo" design but economics governed the manufacturing process - Should have been tubular design - Pressure drop and bounce back are power robbers - If you stand on a rocky shore where the big waves crash against the rocks and flow back into the incoming waves you will see some small semblance of the disaray caused at (9000 X 6) /2 - The V-6 (Morgan Engine) was a very efficient design - I did some of the early contributions in design but got involved in Toronado and Harrier fighter programs in Europe -

Dick Summerfeldt

Dick,

Been so many years, but just wanted to say Hi.

John Schubert

[Old fiberglass]

I like it stackers as wheelie bars :eek:

Yes, I think that is actually the tie for the two motors. i have see other pictures of wings having done it that way as well. Don't think that is the strongest connecting point.

I don't think it's fair to compair a BP stacker with a BP gear case to Twister with a speedmaster. Both should have same gear ratio speedmasters to to be equal. Do you recall any horsepower figures for each motor from back in the day ??

If I get time I'll do a semi realistic weight check of individual parts between the BP stacks & mid vs. Twister silo & mid. I think your right though it's probably a wash.

[Mark75H]

I don't think it's fair to compair a BP stacker with a BP gear case to Twister with a speedmaster. Both should have same gear ratio speedmasters to to be equal. Do you recall any horsepower figures for each motor from back in the day ??

When the Twister came out Merc's press release said it produced the same top end power as the Stackers, but with more mid range and quieter. (I never saw a published number on the Twister, only that comparison. A year or two earlier Merc claimed 155 hp for the Stacker.)

It actually is fair to compare BP's to Twisters - because the comparision wouldn't be with the BP lower unit - it would be with the adapter and regular 1:1 SSM's on both. (The switch to regular SSM's adapted to the BP's was a step in Merc's race motor evolution; there wasn't a jump from full BP to Twister by the factory drivers.)

[willabee]

I like it stackers as wheelie bars :eek:
Yes, I think that is actually the tie for the two motors. i have see other pictures of wings having done it that way as well. Don't think that is the strongest connecting point.
I don't think it's fair to compair a BP stacker with a BP gear case to Twister with a speedmaster. Both should have same gear ratio speedmasters to to be equal. Do you recall any horsepower figures for each motor from back in the day ??

I don't recall seeing any tied together down there. You're right, that's not the best place.....you want to tie them together using the rear plates mounted to the powerhead studs. It's not only stronger, you aren't dragging that big bar through the water in the turns.

When you said you were told it ran better with 1250 BP stackers as opposed to Twisters, I thought you meant the stackers had BP lower units. If you are comparing a 1250 with stacks to a Twister (1350) and they both have SSM lower units, the 1250's only sound like they're going faster.....they're not :).

Having said that , if I had the opportunity to put a Wing in the water today and had a choice of powering it with either one of those two engines, I'm running stackers.....no doubt about it. I remember a demonstration we put on at a new shopping mall on the river in Oshkosh. The guy on the mic told the crowd how Merc engineers had developed more power using a much quieter exhaust system and after a story about Merc racing, two boats came flying towards the crowd. As the went by, Bob Hering in a C6 Molinari had a lead on Tom Stickle in a 1350 stacker Molinari. The boats made one more pass with Hering again in the lead, showing the people it's superior power. When those guys pulled to a stop in front of the crowd, I watched 95% of the people rush to get an autograph and a look at Stickle and his noisy stacker.....they were really excited by all that noise. Someone said a long time ago that "racing is noise, and it's not as exciting without it."

As far as horsepower goes, I can only add to what Mark75H said the press releases announced. My memory banks say that 175 hp is the number the dyno saw for the 1350 stackers we built at Racing.

[Old fiberglass]

Willabee your a wealth of good info. I should be able to go either way with the 18 foot wing....Twister or Stacker. Still gather parts and pieces though. Got to say the 1250 stackers have the cool wow factor, but very limited where you can actually run them. I feel the are the high watermark of cool-ness of the 60's outboard racing era.

One of the guys who worked on Bob Massey's wings "claimed" they could never get the Twister to run as fast as stacker in a race. Just what I was told. Someone threw out a number of 175HP for a Twister...seems high to me.

On a side note. You made a comment that Dutchman wings were rough riding. I got a 8MM converted to DVD were three of them are running at Parker in 1969. Both Jan Schoonover and Ernie Threlkeld were teamed up running one. You can see the wings bouncing up and down as you mentioned. To me it looks like they suffered from the something the 20' Switzer wings did.....not having enough power to keep them flying. Ironically in a later part of the film the Dutchman is running beautifully in smooth water.

[willabee]

Stacker. Got to say the 1250 stackers have the cool wow factor, but very limited where you can actually run them. I feel the are the high watermark of cool-ness of the 60's outboard racing era.......On a side note. You made a comment that Dutchman wings were rough riding. I got a 8MM converted to DVD were three of them are running at Parker in 1969. Both Jan Schoonover and Ernie Threlkeld were teamed up running one. You can see the wings bouncing up and down as you mentioned. To me it looks like they suffered from the something the 20' Switzer wings did.....not having enough power to keep them flying. Ironically in a later part of the film the Dutchman is running beautifully in smooth water.

I would agree, stackers are cool. I was just telling the troops about pulling a 21' Molinari with twin stackers on it back from Parker (Sirois' 1970 Havasu winner). The guy riding with me had not traveled across country with anything like that in tow before, and was amazed at how much attention that boat drew. Somewhere during the trip, I said lets add one mph to the speed we quote every time someone asks "How fast does it go?" We started with 90 mph and people seemed very disappointed by that number. When we got over 110, they seemed to smile bigger.....we stopped the game around 140 because we couldn't keep a straight face :D.

I didn't think there were three Dutchman Wings.....A black with yellow trim for Schnoover and a yellow with black trim for Petty are the only two I recall running that race. I don't know if there is enough power in one of todays engines to make that hull fly :rolleyes:.

[Old fiberglass]

Jan and Ernie ran the black one with yellow trim. There was a red one that I think Petty ran and a yellow one. They are all in the film and for sure three of them were running that year. The other cool thing is you can see a flash of Gene's wing on the shore running the motors and the two wings I have as well. Overall it looked like the year of the "wings".

Pictured is the Twister that was on the mystery 95 boat...just got it yesterday. You can see it has two water dumps as well. Still not smart enough to figure out it works.

The motor is a runner, needs wiring and comsetics. It was pulled off of the 95 boat in the mid 70's and sat on a stand until now. The previous owner a Merc mechanic wanted to see if it would run before selling it to me. So, he did a quick rebuild of the carbs and fuel pump. It sparked right up after 30 something years. Almost didn't want to sell it after that. Not sure why the silo is painted red. I guess if you can't hide it feature it. Thanks for the help Barry !!

[largecar91]

Looks good Rick.

[willabee]

Even has the rear plates for your steering bar :).

[Old fiberglass]

Another dumb question. In the picture below with the blue arrows is the cowl attachment points. This is where the cowl was split to make room for the silo. Was this the done the some way/same place for the stacker motors ?? In other words did the engine cradles directly interchange ?? These look like hand built factory pieces.

[willabee]

Another dumb question. In the picture below with the blue arrows is the cowl attachment points. This is where the cowl was split to make room for the silo. Was this the done the some way/same place for the stacker motors ?? In other words did the engine cradles directly interchange ?? These look like hand built factory pieces.

That's an interesting question, just wish I had the answer. They are the same bottom cowl, but I don't know if the width of the opening required for the silo was the same as that required for the stacks..... never had a reason to try to do that.

[Raceman]

Another dumb question. In the picture below with the blue arrows is the cowl attachment points. This is where the cowl was split to make room for the silo. Was this the done the some way/same place for the stacker motors ?? In other words did the engine cradles directly interchange ?? These look like hand built factory pieces.


They won't interchange, at least not without work. The slot in the Twisters measures about 7" and the stacker is about 3 1/4". The big difference is in the cowls themselves and the way they mount. The stacker cowl is 1 piece. It's solid under the faceplate and has the catches that are usually under the faceplate on the side between the stacks. The Twister (& Twister 1) cowls are two piece and have the catches in the conventional location. The Twisters require a top to bottom piece welded to the cradel for the cowl lips to hook around where the slot is.

[Old fiberglass]

Thanks for the info. I have another powerhead cradel that is an exact match to the one on the Twister I have. So, it must be for a Twister not a stacker that is what I was hoping for. Wish someone would repo the Twister decals. Both the red and blue stripped two piece cowls I have aren't real pretty.

[willabee]

Jan and Ernie ran the black one with yellow trim. There was a red one that I think Petty ran and a yellow one. They are all in the film and for sure three of them were running that year.

This photo was posted by someone else on another thread, but it clearly shows Petty's Passion was the yellow Dutchman Wing.....I'm still wondering about that 3rd red one, I don't recall there being three of them. What kind of design or color scheme can you see on the red one in the film?

[Old fiberglass]

Willabee- Best I can do a picture off the TV screen. It was running none stacks and looked like a older Merc for the era. Probably didn't have any factory support.

Others are of Petty in the pits and taking off again. A lot of smoke came out the stacks when he accelerated...then realized it was probably the water injection making it look worse.

[willabee]

Willabee- Best I can do a picture off the TV screen. It was running none stacks and looked like a older Merc for the era. Probably didn't have any factory support.....Others are of Petty in the pits and taking off again. A lot of smoke came out the stacks when he accelerated...then realized it was probably the water injection making it look worse.

Thanks for going through all of that work to get the photo, it indeed does look like a Dutchman. Any chance you can pick out the boats name as it is running, that would probably help me figure out who is driving. You mentioned Threlkeld earlier, wonder if this was his rig? I seem to recall that the Dutchman Wings showed up with a primary driver, and the boys from Lake X offshore were brought to Parker to co-drive.

This race is March, 1969.....water injection wasn't available yet.

[Old fiberglass]

Ernie Threlkeld was teamed up with Jan Schoonover for the race. The red one was a Dutchman no question about it.

Water injected stackers came out in late 1969 ??? When do you remember it happening ??

[largecar91]

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF ANY OF THE DUTCHMAN 21' TUNNELS(the ones resembling the wings) ARE STILL AROUND?

[willabee]

Ernie Threlkeld was teamed up with Jan Schoonover for the race. The red one was a Dutchman no question about it.....Water injected stackers came out in late 1969 ??? When do you remember it happening ??

How do you know they were teamed, not questioning whether they were or not, just curious.....I did say that the red one does indeed look like a Dutchman.....can you read the name on the boat as it is running in the film?

Water injection was developed during the summer of 69.....I'd have to look it up, but if Miami had an August race that year, that was probably the first big race.....Havasu was the next.

[Old fiberglass]

How do you know they were teamed, not questioning whether they were or not, just curious

Have talked to Ernie about it.

Can't make out the writing on the red Dutchman. Will work on it though.

Interesting about the late development of the water injection. If it came out in late 1969 and the silo'ed Twister came out in 1970. They certainly weren't around for very long. At any rate do you have any history or first hand knowledge about how the system was developed ?? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Mark75H]

I am pretty certain the water injection on the BP's was developed by O.F. Christner who was working on tuned exhaust full time for Merc during that period. OF and others were having success with megaphones and water injection on smaller alcohol burning outboards for a few years before the BPs. I suspect OF was brought in after he suggested making the pipes 2 pieces to solve the problem of the pipes breaking.

[T2x]

Without water injection the stackers were almost undriveable on single engine boats...... Planing was a nighmare and in one marathon I drove with a stacker on a Glastron Molinari the boat would not come up on the "bubble" down wind..... I drove 80 mph into the wind and 25 mph with it........ LONG day....

T2x

[willabee]

:)
Interesting about the late development of the water injection. If it came out in late 1969 and the silo'ed Twister came out in 1970. They certainly weren't around for very long. At any rate do you have any history or first hand knowledge about how the system was developed ?? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sure I do, check out post #151 on the "Hot Singles" thread, it tells about the testing of the system. As for it being around a short time, that thread also shows photos of Bill Seebold and Billy Don Pruett running 1350 water injected stackers at the Miami 225 in July of 1971.....two years after development. We also ran some Twisters and a few C6's at that race.

If O.F. Christner was involved with the development of the water injection system, I didn't know it or don't recall. The parts we got for the system came to us from engineers at Plt.#6 in Oshkosh. I recall his name coming up every now and then, but don't associate it with the two piece stacks or the water injection. On the other hand, there was no reason for anyone to tell me that they were working with him on that project. Maybe they were and just kept that to themselves....you may be one hundred percent correct in your suspicion.

[Old fiberglass]

Wonder if the inboard or the outboard guys came up with the water injection first ?? Did one take the idea from the other.... inboard vs. outboard ?? I have a old V-drive 1973 Biesemeyer that was a ex E circle boat. It has water injected headers. Food for thought.

What was the rule of thumb noise wise for running stackers back in the day ? Sounds like some places you could run them and others you couldn't.

[2us70]

I don't think they were allowed on the record course in St. Petersburg on Lake Maggiore. That is the only place I ever raced where stacks were prohibited. Hardly any place today you can even crank up one of those things much less a pair.

[Bob V]

I don't think they were allowed on the record course in St. Petersburg on Lake Maggiore. That is the only place I ever raced where stacks were prohibited. Hardly any place today you can even crank up one of those things much less a pair.

I can remember Jack Staples telling me that his racing friend, BoBo Mears, ran a twin stacker tunnel around the Island Estates development in the Clearwater harbor and cracked a few windows. Having had the pleasure of being around stackers, I can believe it. What I would give to hear that sound again :rolleyes:

[2us70]

While I have to admit that I would have jumped at the chance to drive one of those things I was never a big fan of their sound. I guess this comes from being overtaken , usually several times a lap, in a much smaller and slower boat in marathons by stackers. A couple of them passing you in traffic was not pleasant. When they were behind you it sounded like they were going right over the top of your boat, and then as they passed you got the full stacker experience up close and personal. I for one was glad that Mercury found better ways to make power. All that said I would like to hear one run again just for old times sake.

[Old fiberglass]

I'm working on hearing the twin Merc sound of thunder. Can't say I ever heard it the first time around. 12 cylinders screaming at 6~7 rpms with open exhaust... it's got to leave an impression.

[2us70]

Thunder doesen't come to mind when I recall the sound of the old stacked Mercurys. The first stackers were equiped with 6 open megaphones on 800s. There is a picture floating around on this board of "Booger" Red Wahl in a twin Power Cat with these motors that was the first stacker I ever heard. I lived several miles from Biscayne Bay back then and when the wind was right you could hear that boat from my house. The sound was a piercing high pitched wail. The later 3 stacked motors were almost as loud but had a slightly deeper tone. At times they almost sounded like an enormous horn honking.

[largecar91]

Rick You Need To Get To Work! You Don't Have Time To Be Screwing Around On These Websites!!

[Fish]

I can remember Jack Staples telling me that his racing friend, BoBo Mears, ran a twin stacker tunnel around the Island Estates development in the Clearwater harbor and cracked a few windows. Having had the pleasure of being around stackers, I can believe it. What I would give to hear that sound again :rolleyes:


Bob, I remeber Bobo, he was also the "creature from the black Lagoon" in the movie; he also called everybody "hoss" and could tell stories better than uncle rhemus. One that scared me as a little kid that I will never forget was one he was telling about going by somoene so fast that it sucked the guys eyeballs right out of his head. Then asked, "Hoss, you ever seen what happens when someone's eyeballs get sucked right out of their head?" I was a little young to know he was exagerating, but got used to him. :)

Of course I remeber Jack Staples too; my dad. He was telling me not long ago about racing agianst OleGator and hearing this sound coming up behind him... It was gator passing him running a stacker. I think he said something about it sounding like bee's, but I am not positive about that.

[willabee]

What was the rule of thumb noise wise for running stackers back in the day ? Sounds like some places you could run them and others you couldn't.

In 1967, there weren't many guys running stackers (I'm talking OPC, not drags), maybe half dozen or so. Stacker kits became available in large numbers for the 1250, 1968. So when the numbers jumped from a couple of boats in a race with stackers to a couple of dozen, I guess that's when people started taking a look at the noise levels. I think it was around 1970 that race sites started to put a limit on db's. Slow but sure, sites wanted to quiet the stackers.....the day of the one thousand pound bumblebee was numbered :(.

I remember driving back to Wisconsin after Parker 9 Hour races in that time period, usually a four day trip. During at least the first three days, I'd be driving along and all of a sudden the sound of a twin stacker would pop into my head. I could actually listen to it and say to myself, "Kitson".....then another would pop up, a little different from the last and I would say "Massy". After listening to them for nine hours, you could close your eyes and hear the subtle differences in pitch because of how each guy drove his Wing. You could also tell that it was a twin tunnel, not a Wing coming down the backstretch without looking up.

I tell you, that sight, on a bright but crisp early Sunday morning.....fifteen or so beautiful stacked Wings making that popp/POP/poppp/pop sound as they idled from their trailer to their starting positions....fighting for ear time with the equally beautiful inboard machinery that was just roaring through their open headers warming up on the trailer....it was just exciting! It almost took your breath away as you said to no one in particular "Man, this is going to be something!" You just didn't know where to look because so much neat stuff was being put into motion at the same time.....the air was filling with the best smelling smoke that ever existed. I'll tell you that if there were any beautiful women streaking through the pits at that time, nobody saw them.....all that great stuff milling about on the water had everyones complete attention .....and all of it would be streaking soon enough :cool:.

[Bob V]

Jody...Jack's description of the sound was right on. I would say that the stackers sounds like a swarm of about 10,000 bees with the amplification that you would find at today's rock concert. It was totally deafening when they screamed by. It is a sound that you will never forget. It has been about 39 years since I was around them and I am still going through withdrawal :(

[Bob V]

Willabee....I don't think that I can ever get enough of your posts. You may not realize it, but you have the ability to paint pictures with your words. Your post above really brings back many memories of the way it was. Your description of the stackers popping as they idle to the line takes me back to a time that can never be repeated.

I have said it before and I will say it again...Thanks for the memories :)

[GENE LANHAM]

I'm working on hearing the twin Merc sound of thunder. Can't say I ever heard it the first time around. 12 cylinders screaming at 6~7 rpms with open exhaust... it's got to leave an impression.
I have always wanted to ask the question. 'What was the noisiest sporting event in history?"
My answer would have to be: Havasu, 1969, first day.

[GENE LANHAM]

I tell you, that sight, on a bright but crisp early Sunday morning.....fifteen or so beautiful stacked Wings making that popp/POP/poppp/pop sound as they idled from their trailer to their starting positions....fighting for ear time with the equally beautiful inboard machinery that was just roaring through their open headers warming up on the trailer....it was just exciting


I remember towing back on Monday morning, and not being able to hear ANYTHING after 9 hours in the 'Bird. I have blamed those funny looking things stuck in my ears for the past 15 years on Pattersons (headers), or Lycomings, or Continentals, or Pratt and Whitneys.

Willabee, the stackers were the BEST and it was EXCITING!!!

[Raceman]

Maybe if you guys really yearn for the noise y'all oughta come by and we'll fire this one up. I haven't cranked it in 6 or 8 years now, but if I cleaned the carbs it oughta fire right up.:eek:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11866&highlight=kitson

[Mark75H]

I still say you need to fix that thing up and bring it to Clayton - next year. You have over a year to get it done :)

[willabee]

I have always wanted to ask the question. 'What was the noisiest sporting event in history?"
My answer would have to be: Havasu, 1969, first day.

The answer is Havasu 69, but it was because of the noise that the boys were making when they met at Havasu while "discussing" who really left with the barmaid from the Bedrock during the last Parker race.....:D

I looked up Havasu 1969.....111 starters!.....24 of the first 30 finishers were in twins or triples!.....at least 30 and as many as 40 of the powerheads on the first 30 boats to finish were Mercury stackers! ......Lanham had a bad Saturday, falling 8 laps behind the leader (too much noise or too much Bedrock?).....had a great Sunday to finish 14th overall :cool: .....that might be the answer, Havasu 1969.....at least 30 stacked powerheads on the first 30 finishers and no way of telling how many more there were among the 111 starters.....I bet a lot of desert animals were either digging deeper holes or heading south :).

Oh, I almost forgot.....based on earlier posts, I imagine that the boys from Canada sent a bunch of their "cowbells" to this event also, those guys always made a lot of noise :rolleyes:.......the devil made me do that :p.

[willabee]

Willabee....Thanks for the memories :)

and, you are welcome..... glad you enjoy some of this stuff.

[Old fiberglass]

tell you, that sight, on a bright but crisp early Sunday morning.....fifteen or so beautiful stacked Wings making that popp/POP/poppp/pop sound as they idled from their trailer to their starting positions....fighting for ear time with the equally beautiful inboard machinery that was just roaring through their open headers warming up on the trailer....it was just exciting! It almost took your breath away as you said to no one in particular "Man, this is going to be something!" You just didn't know where to look because so much neat stuff was being put into motion at the same time.....the air was filling with the best smelling smoke that ever existed. I'll tell you that if there were any beautiful women streaking through the pits at that time, nobody saw them.....all that great stuff milling about on the water had everyones complete attention .....and all of it would be streaking soon enough .


I agree with Bob V...what a painted picture. Sounds like the high water mark for that style and vintage boat racing.


I remember towing back on Monday morning, and not being able to hear ANYTHING after 9 hours in the 'Bird.

I think they should have given Gene the "Iron Butt Award" for driving almost all of the Parker 9 hour in his wing by himself. Of course he must still like to fly things since he routinely flies his plane from Colorado to Tuscon AZ :cool:

[Powercat]

This appears to be a photo of a Twister Cowbell if I am not mistaken??
270639

[willabee]

This appears to be a photo of a Twister Cow Bell if I am not mistaken??
270639

..... that's the elusive cowbell. Photo is courtesy of John Schubert, he said he found it on the Dick Summerfelt web site. It's Kenny Kitson's Kitsoncraft, probably taken in 1971 somewhere in Canada, the land of many cowbells!