Rare Merc 100BP at Bham Boat Show

[MagicFloat]

Moving in to the show today,saw what was I thought a motor that did not exist,a 1000BP with Mark 75H style tower and lower unit.Just a collection of parts, I thought ,I was wrong, a fully documented 1000BP with a Quicky, original Merc shipping box, all documentation, matching #'s on the clamp bracket and powerhead.Who has the history on this one? It looked brand new,decals,paint,etc. Supposedly only 10 hours since 1968?

[Mark75H]

Sorry, I don't think its a factory motor. Someone sent me some pictures a few months back of something that sounds exactly like you are discribing. My impression was that the only Merc racing parts on it were the decals. He was looking for stuff to make it appear more authentic, sounds like he found some.


Did you get any pictures of it?

I can't find the ones I was given, but when I do I'll post them here.

An 89ci motor would have to have a modified driveshaft in a Mk75H type unit and the BP spec's require the bigger BP lower unit "R" measurement. Std motors with Speedmasters were required to meet the std "V" block base to bullet measurement; there was no small bullet/shorter than short tower BP motor presented to NOA or APBA.

The rules required 250 or 400 or so motors in OPC back then. There are no really "rare" Merc OPC motors until later, like the T-4. Merc actually tried to "dump" extra 1000BP's at a discount at one point because they were taking up space unsold. I think the bulletin says "stock 100 hp powerhead on BP lower unit" and listed them at $1300 instead of $1800.

[MagicFloat]

I'll get photos tomorrow.Word was only 10 of these were built. Clamp bracket serial # started with #23,indicative of 68-69, will look closer tomorrow.Please don't shoot the messenger,if it is not right,no problem. But I trust the new owner enough to believe it is authentic.Maybe he can post facts as to the authenticity.

[Raceman]

I'm with Sam on this one. There's no reason that Merc would've built such an engine on a 75H style housing, because it's too short for anything but a hydro, which Merc wasn't much interested in, in the late 60's. I've got a picture somewhere of a 1000 BP and a 1000 Super BP as well as both of the 1250's and the housings look like the same first and second designs we're used to seeing with the conventional BP lowers, which of course were about 4 times the width at the area they join the housing as the 75H. I'd still like to see the pictures though.

[Mark75H]

There were sometimes some "show" motors made that were just boat show window dressing. Around 1960 there was a Square top motor with a Mk75H mid section and lower unit that was displayed at some shows. No such production motor was ever made at or by the factory.

Another possibility is it may be remnants of a Lake X prototype (or prototype series). All kinds of weird stuff was tested there and never made it to production.

Stuff like this Speedmaster with the speedometer water pickup above the bullet. (Sorry about the out of focus, its not my fault, I'll sweep up the leaves later.)

[Raceman]

Reading back through the description here jogs my memory on something. Several years back, I got interested in a motor in Fla. that supposedly came from Lake X and had never been on a boat. It was alledged to have been run on a test fixture, but never mounted on a boat. The engine looked brand new in the pics I had at the time. I ran it by my friend who worked at Lake X during the BP time frame and he declared BS on it, saying that everything BP wise, in either of the 1000's or either of the 1250's, that left Merc had a BP housing and lower on it. My friend felt like it was some type of aftermarket or one off mid. The mid on this engine more closely resembled a 15" mid, but was different in some details, although I can't recall exactly what. It had a SuperSpeedmaster on it. I may still have the pics in another computer. Since the motor was in cosmetically new condition, I'm guessing this is it.

I'd like to hear Old Gator's opinion. I think he was around the race stuff in this time frame.

[25XS]

Hi Raceman,
Your memory serves you right... There were supposedly 5 made and it appears to be a 1000 on a (huge) 55H looking tower and Speedmaster gearcase. Jon Culver had it in his Florida house for many years. Bob Dunlap pried it away from Culver, then Len Gullickson got it from Bob... Len did a little touch up to some chips, waxed it up nicely and it looks like a new motor. I gave Len a literally new in the box NOS 1968 Mercury 6 gallon tank to complete his display. I'll see if Len has a some digital pictures of it, but I still haven't figured out how to post pictures in my messages here.

Tom

[25XS]

Olegator,

The motor Bob Dunlap had at Cypress Gardens went to a new owner in Savannah... I have a picture of it in my hands right now, but I don't have a scanner.

Tom
Lake Lanier, Georgia, USA

[Raceman]

That is the same engine that we're talking about and I remember the sand cast mid now. Wally gave me the same opinion when I was interested in it: May be a BP powerhead but the mid was something else. I've got pics of it somewhere also, probably the other computer.

[kim cleckler]

This motor is the one Len had. I bought it from him a few weeks back just to have as a conversation piece. I received from Len the spec sheets from Lake X stating what this motor is. I will post them later this week after i get out of this boat show. The motor is bascially BRAND NEW and it says from lake X there was only a few made and it is on a MK 75 leg . I will post pics and the documention from Lake X that i received. I do know its the cleanest one i have seen and i put it on a 15 Allison to show and it has gotten alot of attention from guys that raced in the 60s and 70s. Looks neat. Thanks Kim

[MagicFloat]

Took a bunch of pics tonite,this is an absolutely brand new motor,a beautiful work of art. Don't know how to post pics here,may send them to Mark75h like I did before and he can post them,but it will be Thurs,it's midnite and the show is wearing me out.

[brianT2]

i took this at cypress gardens AOMC when i went to see dad. may be the one olegator was referring to. definately not like dads 1250BP that he raced. speaking of 650XS, raceman are you going to come off that midsection so i can rig my new toy?:D

[Raceman]

I wish I could find the pictures that John C sent me to see if it's the same engine. I remember the mid being odd it some way, but don't recall it looking like a 75. (I assume you're referring to a std. 75 as opposed to a 75H which I'm absolutely sure it wasnt')

Bryan, I'm hoping that your dad has found enough stuff now to put his little motor together. It's gonna be neat.

[Raceman]

The picture above that Bryan posted looks like I remember John C's motor lookin'. The edges on the mid appear defined, where a 75 would be rounded. I'm almost sure that I remember the mid on John's motor being sand cast also. Interesting piece regardless.

[Raceman]

The other obvious possibility of the motor in Bryan's picture, assuming it's the same one Kim has now, is that they housing is some kind of prototype, either a 1 off by Merc or an aftermarket. In the 60's there were several people building aftermarket mids. Parker, Daytona, Quincey Welding, etc, all had mids for the older inlines, so who knows what might've been cast up by one of them for what would've been late model stuff at the time.

[25XS]

I can confirm with 100% confidence that it's the same motor John Culver owned. I personally helped unload and load it at Cypress Gardens Fall 2000 AOMCI meet for Bob Dunlap who bought it from John Culver. Bob then sold it to Len Gullickson, another personal friend of mine and I gave him a NOS 1968 six gallon tank to display with it. If Kim just bought it from Len, then that confirms beyond any doubt that it's the same motor as in the show.

25XS
Lake Lanier, Georgia, USA

[kim cleckler]

It is the same motor . Like I said I just bought it from Len in the past 2 weeks and i will get some pics on here and i know MagicFloat took several last nite and he will get them on here too. It is something very different dont now if i will ever run it but i did start it up in my test tank and it started almost instant, something i didnt expect.Hope to get pics today or later this week Kim

[MagicFloat]

I will see if these download, if someone will send instuctions on
uploading more than one.
Thanks,
Karen Nelems

[MagicFloat]

More photos

[MagicFloat]

More

[Mark75H]

I might bite on that, except Merc BP time is pretty much post Wing time. The fire was in 1967 wasn't it? Dieter Schulze started the tunnel migration to the US in '66... Wings were passé by the time the first "BP" was sold in 68. I'll go another step or two on this...it is too short to use on a Wing transom. Wings are std short transom boats, this thing is shorter than short and where is its mate? As yet no more of these have surfaced anywhere. Don't get me wrong, Switzer Wings were still being raced then, but they were second string, not starters.

Maybe it isn't a "Lake X" part.....not everything went to FL for testing, some stuff could have been tested at Oshkosh where the parts were made anyway couldn't they?

I wish I could see if the driveshaft was machined as one piece with splines broached on it from round stock or if it was cut and welded. That still wouldn't confirm its origin, but it would tell a little about the quality of the work.

There is a telltale that would confirm that this was a factory part or not. Anyone know what that is?

[Mark75H]

Don't look if you don't want to know

[Mark75H]

And they are different if the part is a prototype or production part

[Mark75H]

The top image is a Mark75H production mid section casting. We can tell by the casting number cast into it. On this particular item the casting number is the exact same number as the part number; sometimes they vary.

The next image is a pair of 75H lower units. The top one is a production unit.....part # 1618-1489 the bottom has a prototype designation 5X 60 588. This was for a 60 hp motor, so the middle number is 60. 10 or 20 prototype 75H sets are in circulation to this day.


There were 9 Mark25H units made; all 9 were different....one of them survives today....the casting number on it has a 25 as it's middle digits for 25hp even though it was a 20ci motor.

I have seen a preproduction Speedmaster prototype, the middle digits on it are 80. Makes sense since they Speedmasters came out with the 80 hp 76 ci Merc 800.

If the motor at B'ham is a Merc made piece it probably has a casting number in it and the middle digits would tell us what motor it was intended to be tested with.

[Raceman]

"this thing is shorter than short "

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the motor from John C that we're looking at here a standard 15" length?

The "where's the mate" is a good point also. Seems like Merc wouldn't go to the trouble to do something like that as a one off. Until I saw the pics that John had, I'd never seen or heard of another one, or run across anybody else that had either.

[T2x]

During the late 60's not all race engines ran a BP center section. There were some on a stock 15" mid........... This looks like one of them......the square edges indicate it is definitely not a 75H. I recall wings running in 65-66 using merc 1000's-1100's with speedmasters and without stacks.

Should I call Jon?

T2x

[Mark75H]

Len sent me some pictures of this when he first got it, I am pretty certain it is shorter than a regular short shaft....that is why I recognised it when Magic Float first started this thread with the "Mark75H style" description of the mid section.

Yes, calling Jon Culver and getting closer to the source of this thing would be a very good idea.

Actually calling Jon and talking old race stuff is always a good idea. He has a lot of old pictures from the early days of OPC himself. I was stunned when he told me he rigged Dieter Schulze's tunnel hull for it's debut at Havasu.

Why don't you find out if he has a computer and invite him here?

[MagicFloat]

Measured the housing today. 12" from powerhead gasket to where it bolts to the SSM lower unit. Looks just like a Mark 55/58 mid, but of course it could not be. Looks sand cast,a grainy finish.

[Mark75H]

Thanks for measuring it and confirming my visual of it being extra short. A regular Merc short mid is 16 ½" from the belly pan to the top of the lower unit.

[T2x]

I called Jon..and didn't get an answer so I e-mailed Carol...She forwarded this link to him and said he would read it....I'll let you know.

T2x

[Mark75H]

I found the pictures Len Gullickson (one of the former owners of the "100BP") sent me. Here are 2 of them:

[Mark75H]

Closer of the mid and lower unit. Notice anything odd for a 1969 racing motor?

[Mark75H]

How about a 1964 lower unit?

Confirms my suspicions. Any factory piece would have had a current lower unit.

[Mark75H]

OK, how do I know it is a 1964 (or earlier) Speedmaster? The boss around the rear bearings and seal is different on Speedmasters and Super Speedmasters. The single pinion Speedmaster boss is a little smaller, but mostly the Super Speedmaster housing has much longer radii above and below the rear boss. This one clearly runs right to the boss and has the very close radii.

[Raceman]

That is the engine that Jon Culver sent me pictures of several years ago. That po' thing sho' has gottin around. Apparently it's had about 4 owners since then. I didn't recall the housing being that short, but the odd thing about it was that it had a snout on it like an old DR motor and the powerhead nuts were exposed like the DR also, but it's much shorter, still not 75H style though. It's definately a different mid than anything I've seen before.

[Mark75H]

I think thats a Bonneville (sp?) midsection like the two that were for sale on ebay a month or two ago....maybe we solved the mystery.

Looks like a 100 merc powerhead on an aftermarket bonneville 12 inch midsection and an old speedmaster.
No. That mid isn't a Bonneville; that poor thing was home made. The guy that made it contacted me and explained the whole thing ... it is just a show motor, nothing that was ever raced or made for racing.

[Mark75H]

I think it was a 1960 70hp or 80hp. A lot of matching of parts that didn't belong together.

[Raceman]

Whatever it is, I wish I'd bought it when John offered to sell it to me.:(

[MagicFloat]

Three years after my original post this motor still has some of us discussing it. Lots of theories as to what it really is,we may never know the true history.Regardless of that,I saw it up close and personal and was impressed with the same as new condition and the rarity of it. I would love to own it but I know Kim would never sell it.

[kim cleckler]

I Have Somewhere In My Office All The Paper Work Where I Got It. Dont Seem To Be Homemade Or The Paper Work Dont Say Homemade..

I Will Look It Up And Try To Post It.. Looks Very Orginal Anyway To Me.. Very Clean Nice Motor

[Mark75H]

Hmmm, I think I can get some proof that the midsection in that photo is not home made.
I Have Somewhere In My Office All The Paper Work Where I Got It. Dont Seem To Be Homemade Or The Paper Work Dont Say Homemade..I Will Look It Up And Try To Post It..
I would be truely interested to see what you guys come up with.

[largecar91]

It would be great if it were documented as something from Mercury. Regardless, It is a very nice motor!

[bridges]

OK, how do I know it is a 1964 (or earlier) Speedmaster? The boss around the rear bearings and seal is different on Speedmasters and Super Speedmasters. The single pinion Speedmaster boss is a little smaller, but mostly the Super Speedmaster housing has much longer radii above and below the rear boss. This one clearly runs right to the boss and has the very close radii.


Sorry to respond to a 3 year old post, but the early Super Speedmasters looked just like that. I have literature from Mercury showing the complete assembly (dated April 1965) that I'll scan and post. In fact, my dad (raymar) has one of the early Super Speedmasters with the gear housing straight line all the way down to the propshaft rear bearing carrier (no radii).

[Mark75H]

That promo picture also shows it white. I have never seen one that was delivered that way. I think it is pre-production.

[kim cleckler]

I Cant Print This I Dont Have A Scanner But This What Mercury Said About The Engine, I Have This In Wrting..


1968 Mercury
Serial #2399704
Special Model 100bp Experimental
Blue Printed Powerhead
Super Speedmaster Lower Unit
Prorotype For Opc Racing
This Motor Was Only Test Run At Lake X,
The Motor Was Stored At Lake X And The Tower Was Never Put Into Production By Mercury..

[bridges]

Another early Super Speedmaster variation. This is just like what is shown in the April 1965 Parts/Accesories Sales Bulletin, part # A-1624-2573A2 (right hand), and A-1624-2573A3 (Left hand). The original black paint was removed below the cavitation plate.

[bridges]

I had to crop out part of the bulletin to get the file small enough to post. This is the top of the page of the bulletin, April 1965.

[Mark75H]

I see what you are saying.

Do you see the serial number stamped on it somewhere? Usually they have the rotation and serial number stamped on them ... if you look closely.

[bridges]

I or raymar (my dad) will look for one, but I don't think there is anything besides a casting number.

[largecar91]

Scott, How's the Twister and 150XS restorations coming??:confused:

[Raceman]

Scott, if you'll look closely you'll see that the second picture I posted on this thread has the same exhaust outlet and the patent pending on the side also. The only difference I see between the two is it seems like yours has a larger skeg.

[bridges]

RM, the SSM pic I posted looks just like the older one on the "1000 BP". I was just saying that the bulletin shows that look in 1965 also. I just wanted to add to your thread. But I'm not sure of the photo you're talking about?...:confused: Lots of variations, anyway!

[bridges]

Scott, How's the Twister and 150XS restorations coming??:confused:


Things slowed down for a while! I moved and got married, and we didn't do much during the winter. We've been in an "aquiring" phase recently. (buying junk). Anyway, the first T-1 is almost finished. It just needs the top cover painted and the exhaust log and SSM put on. The 1500XS is very close, but we don't have an XS lower unit. We have some 1500XS decals, but no louvered cowl.

We have several more hi-perf inline sixes ready to build/rebuild.

I was lucky enough to recently trade for a few original vintage Mercury motor stands, so ultimately we'll have a collection of high performance engines on them.

Here are recent pics of the T-1 and 1500XS: Currently the 1500 has a lower band with a green factory option 1976 decals on it. Sorry the photo quality is low--I used an old disposable camera instead of my digital.

[WhiplashedToyota]

are you selling 1500xs decals? i would like to buy that!

[raymar]

Toyota,
We only have one set of 1500XS decals (originals) we are saving until we can locate another louvered cowl. There is someone on this site who is making the 1500XS reproduction decals, I saw some info on here about them recently.
Note: I am answering your inquiry for Bridges for he is in Seattle at this time.

[Raceman]

Bruster is selling the 1500XS decals and they're as good as the originals, without the worries of dried up adhesive or scuffing from sliding around in the boxes (like an NOS set I bought). His repro's are perfect and they ARE printed on chrome tape with correct transluscent inks just like the originals, rather than the vinyl multi layered ones like are being sold on E Bay.

[jackie wilson]

Saw something very similar in ron jones workshop about 1971 but he was very cagey about it in those days. Jackie wilson