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Liberator*21
08-22-2013, 05:36 AM
I'm starting this thread because I'm at it again.....mod'ing my 300x with a "highly" modified and total departure from it's intended use MAD EFI 3 horn intake. I've had quite awhile to think about this project as well as talk to some experts on this concept and the general consensus is it should work (notice the underlined word.....should), as I've had this type intake on several motors I've owned and never had much success with it in the past, henceforth the reason I can't leave well enough alone...I will not admit to defeat easily......LOL, so there's been allot of thought that's gone into what I'm about to attempt once again and some options or Plan "B's" along the way to over come some possible issues (that I hope don't arise).

Stay tuned as pics and details are forth coming showing what's been done, how and why.....:)

specboatops
08-22-2013, 06:09 AM
Subscribed and good luck on the project !

R.grover
08-28-2013, 04:33 AM
sounds fun mate

Liberator*21
08-28-2013, 05:17 AM
Thanks, R.grover......

Getting closer everyday to pulling the trigger on the install. Just missing a few major components here and there.....lol. Let me start out by saying that I prefer not to run premix if at all possible so thats why my mod'd OEM VST was going to be reused........"NOT". With a 1" spacer plate in addition to the MAD intake my current VST is now a very tight squeeze to clear all the linkage and to get it under the cowl. I've opt'd for an early "PLAN B", going to try a 1993 XRI VST w/o the FWD pump attached as the width and length are smaller than my current VST and the concept of a fuel bowl with float,needle and seat are all maintained as if using my larger mod'd VST and may fit in what is now premium real estate so the cowl still fits w/o rubbing. Couple more weeks and I should be on the verge of doing a tear down and install.......:D

tux974
08-28-2013, 05:35 AM
I'll be watching....love unique thinking and technology ;):D :thumbsup:

Liberator*21
08-28-2013, 06:20 AM
I'll be watching....love unique thinking and technology ;):D :thumbsup:

Tux,
This maybe one of the biggest cases of building a "FRANKENSTEIN MOTOR" ever.......LOL, don't know about the unique thinking and technology part as I feel like a Mad Scientist" at this stage......LMAO.

Liberator*21
08-28-2013, 08:16 AM
Ok,
Time for a little show and tell. Note this is all in the mock up stage as there are some parts still missing, i.e. "TPS Cover", yet to mount the XRI VST etc...etc..... Updates will appear as they happen, happy viewing..............:D


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1901_zps7dc6a2fb.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1901_zps7dc6a2fb.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/8_zpsfa88d78e.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/8_zpsfa88d78e.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/7_zpse80b9a75.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/7_zpse80b9a75.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/6_zpsd0454917.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/6_zpsd0454917.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/3_zps9f100384.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/3_zps9f100384.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/1_zps5d5fafe4.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/1_zps5d5fafe4.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1681_zpsce05f6d0.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1681_zpsce05f6d0.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1657_zpse38948b7.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1657_zpse38948b7.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1910_zps1c868ede.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1910_zps1c868ede.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1908_zpsec845ce5.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1908_zpsec845ce5.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1907_zps6fca7360.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1907_zps6fca7360.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1906_zpsafb62862.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1906_zpsafb62862.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1905_zps9e9bde14.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1905_zps9e9bde14.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1904_zps08fcf424.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1904_zps08fcf424.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1903_zps93e29099.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1903_zps93e29099.jpg.html)

Dave Strong
08-28-2013, 08:56 AM
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!


Dave

R.grover
08-29-2013, 02:51 AM
did you make the spacer ya self?

Liberator*21
08-29-2013, 05:20 AM
did you make the spacer ya self?

No, it was made by Charlie (mrcrsr). I was going to make one but he already had one cut and available so that just saved me sometime over buying the material and figuring out all the dimensions to cut it. It's a nice piece.

tux974
08-29-2013, 06:02 AM
Gary, Looking good!!! :thumbsup: That is 2014 technology and engineering, nice work ;):D:thumbsup:

Tony

Liberator*21
08-29-2013, 09:07 AM
Tony,

Not to sure about it being "2014 technology and engineering", more like a "2013 shot in the dark"......LMAO !!!!!!!, but thanks for the compliment. The principal of the project is sound, although real world results are the cold hard facts.....lol. This whole project was about trying to get the damm 3 hole intake to be somewhat mild mannered. My past experience with this intake on 3L's should have taught me to stop while I'm ahead as it was never very user friendly in a receration boating sense. But that intake is so bad a$$ look'n I just gotta give it another shot. Wish me luck as I think I'm gonna need it and lots more.......:D

Liberator*21
08-31-2013, 05:29 AM
Morning all,

Update:
200 XRI VST arrived yesterday and "WOW" is that thing ever small (good thing).....LOL. I don't think there'll be a problem making it fit into the limited space available. Mounting is another story, I have to cut off the FWD pump mount casting and possibly a cast mounting ear or two. I'll know more when I get to taking actual measurements, anyone ever laid a little TIG weld on the VST casting ??? Just wondering how or if it'll accept some Tig welded brackets. I know some aluminum pot metal castings "DON'T" do well when welding on them. Let me know if you've weld on one before......Thx.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1911_zpsb4f279cb.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1911_zpsb4f279cb.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1912_zps29fb9b07.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1912_zps29fb9b07.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1915_zpsa4321348.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_1915_zpsa4321348.jpg.html)

vw-nut
08-31-2013, 01:14 PM
Hey Gary,
Glenn in Cincinnati, that stuff will weld up just fine its aluminum, just some die cast stuff, use some 5356 filler rod (i can bring you a a few sticks) or (run over to valley gas on tylersville west of rt4) and go easy on the amperage, pure tungsten electrode with a small ball tip. let it air cool dont quench it.
I would love to come up to see this cool project and talk boat for a while.

Liberator*21
08-31-2013, 01:20 PM
Hey Glenn, its been awhile buddy. Hope all is well on your end. Thanks for the heads up on welding the VST. Your more than welcome to stop by any time. I'll PM you my cell number.

vnemous
08-31-2013, 01:41 PM
Gary will that vst hold enough fuel? I just cleaned and flowed the injectors in my 300x and at 5ms at 5000 rpms they are cranking out some fuel.

malexie
08-31-2013, 01:51 PM
VST is not needed. My openion.

Liberator*21
08-31-2013, 03:58 PM
Gary will that vst hold enough fuel? I just cleaned and flowed the injectors in my 300x and at 5ms at 5000 rpms they are cranking out some fuel.

My fuel set up is a little different, the VST is only used as a reserve tank for return fuel from the fuel rail. Fuel from the Holley pusher to the VST, VST supplies fuel from a bottom drain to the external EFI pump, EFI pump pressurizes the fuel rail, return fuel from the fuel rail goes back to the VST. It's a big loop which will never run out of fuel. I agree 6 injectors at 5k are like 6 fire hoses spraying all out........lol.


VST is not needed. My openion. :iagree:, but reason is that I didn't want to run a return line back from the fuel regulator back to the on board tank. Still using OEM oil injection pump as well so all that gets reused is pure gas, no oil mixed in with it.

vnemous
08-31-2013, 04:28 PM
Yep fills 120ml in like 5 sec lol

Dave Strong
08-31-2013, 06:26 PM
My fuel set up is a little different, the VST is only used as a reserve tank for return fuel from the fuel rail. Fuel from the Holley pusher to the VST, VST supplies fuel from a bottom drain to the external EFI pump, EFI pump pressurizes the URL rail, return fuel from the fuel rail goes back to the VST. It's a big loop which will never run out of fuel. I agree 6 injectors at 5k are like 6 fire hoses spraying all out........lol.

:iagree:, but reason is that I didn't want to run a return line back from the fuel rail back to the on board tank. Still using OEM oil injection pump as well so all that gets reused is pure gas, no oil mixed in with it.

Well there you go you just answered my questions,:D Could not figure why you putting a 2.4 VST on that beast. :rolleyes:;)
You going to polish that when done or get it powder coated?

Dave:cheers:

Liberator*21
09-01-2013, 04:58 AM
Dave,

:iagree:, LOL !!!!!!, I re-read what I posted on the VST and it doesn't sound like it makes any sense to me either without an explanation.......lol.

I will most likely paint it the same as the intake, silver. I started using brake caliper paint when painting intakes and other parts because it resists fuel and oil and its pretty tuff stuff. Spray it, let it dry throw it in the oven at 400 degrees for 15 min and allow to cool. It's now a hard baked on finish. Not that I don't like powder coating, it's just more practical for what I'm doing.

Gotta figure out mounting of the VST this week, then start with plumbing the fuel lines and EFI pump. Finished machining the VST yesterday for the fuel drain fitting to the EFI pump and the return fuel from the rail fitting, I was lucky because there were already 2 more fittings already on the VST cover. Had to drill one out because it had a check valve in it. Both need to be free flowing as one will be used as a bleed line return and the other is a VST vent to atmosphere.

tux974
09-01-2013, 05:47 AM
I'm surprise you did not make a nice round, custom VST/slosh tank with your own fittings......:D

Liberator*21
09-01-2013, 05:53 AM
I'm surprise you did not make a nice round, custom VST/slosh tank with your own fittings......:D

LMAO......:D, Tony, you a mind reader ????? LOL!, it did cross my mind but its really more work than what's needed. The XRI VST is perfect for handling what needs to be done with incoming fuel and return fuel. When its all done welded, machined and painted, it'll look like it belongs there although a nice billet tank would have been an added "BLING-BLING" feature......LOL.

Dave Strong
09-01-2013, 10:36 AM
LMAO......:D, Tony, you a mind reader ????? LOL!, it did cross my mind but its really more work than what's needed. The XRI VST is perfect for handling what needs to be done with incoming fuel and return fuel. When its all done welded, machined and painted, it'll look like it belongs there although a nice billet tank would have been an added "BLING-BLING" feature......LOL.

Winter is only a few months away. :eek::D I see a custom tank build in the future.:D;)

Dave:)

4JawChuck
09-01-2013, 11:23 AM
Very nice work Gary, threads like this one get my machinist juices flowing...keep up the good work...I'll be watching your thread for updates!

Where did you get the plastic coated ball ends?

tux974
09-01-2013, 11:29 AM
Gary, just busting them...;):D

StratosVT
09-01-2013, 05:33 PM
Plan B:

If your motor doesn't run like you expect it to, try replacing your spacer plate with a 300x injector plate. Mount the injectors there and plug inj holes for the MAD. I've never done this, but I do have some experience with the MAD intake and have a feeling this could make it work better. ;)

Liberator*21
09-01-2013, 05:47 PM
All the experts I've spoken to said mount as follows from the motor fwd;

300x injector plate w/injectors
1" Composite spacer plate
And last, the MAD Intake w/injector holes plugged

Reasoning;
Moving the injectors further away will hurt performance, injectors need to be as close to the motor as possible.

patchesII
09-01-2013, 06:29 PM
I do know StratosVT has some experience with the Mad intake on a 300X platform. Cool thread

Liberator*21
09-01-2013, 07:21 PM
StratosVT, lets here it, always looking to hear and learn more from hands on users.....:thumbsup:

PanRonnie
09-02-2013, 11:10 AM
300x injector plate w/injectors
1" Composite spacer plate
And last, the MAD Intake w/injector holes plugged

in other words a long intake duct
you sure you don,t want tot try ? ;)

Liberator*21
09-02-2013, 11:18 AM
Hey Ronnie,

I get the gest of where your going with it, but where's the injectors in a long runner hi-torque intake like that ?????

PanRonnie
09-02-2013, 11:22 AM
mount something like this on top of the reed plate! ?
custom plate maybe

Liberator*21
09-02-2013, 11:39 AM
Got'cha. It would be very cool to say the least.......

PanRonnie
09-02-2013, 02:30 PM
very hard without a measurement reference
but it should be do-able :cheers:
anyway enough dreaming

StratosVT
09-02-2013, 05:30 PM
Liberator*21, on one hand I am reluctant to share too much info because I do not want to discourage you from trying something different. On the other hand, I hate to watch someone spend a pile of time & $$$ on something if my input might speed up your research or save you some dough. I'm no expert and can't explain the "why", but will share with you my experience with the MAD intake.

In a nutshell, the main issue I had with it was that the motor could not be tuned to run well. My use was for a racing application and I used the injection mounts on the intake with custom injectors, and Merc Drag electronics. Tried pretty much everything possible as far as tuning the ecu and manipulating physical aspects of the bleed system & intake and the end result is that there is a significant fuel/air delivery disparity between the port & starboard banks. In the end, I thought of a few ways to address the issue but decided to use a different intake rather than continue trying to fix the MAD. 4 ways come to mind that might make it work properly: 1. Run an ecu that allows adjustment to individual cylinders, 2. Run different size injectors in one bank, 3. run 2 fuel rails & 2 separate fuel regulators, and 4. try relocating injectors (300x pate or mount like a drag motor to front half).

The MAD might work fine for a lake motor, especially if individual cylinders can be tuned through the motorola ecu.

Good luck with it and I'll stay tuned to your thread!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/seikonut/353374692_VXzN9-XL-1_zps93dc3f29.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/seikonut/media/353374692_VXzN9-XL-1_zps93dc3f29.jpg.html)

Liberator*21
09-03-2013, 04:57 AM
StratosVT,

Rather then tell you my life's story here in this thread I'll send you a PM as to my background on this intake and others I've used/tried............thanks for your input and candor on the subject, it's always welcome.

Liberator*21
09-03-2013, 05:42 AM
The current candidate, 1993 200 XRI VST in it OEM form:


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1911_zps821bf6c7.jpg


The pics below detail the mod that this VST went through, pretty much self explanatory. All 3 mounting ears were cut off. Bottom of tank had a fuel valve of some sort that I removed and drilled/tapped 1/4-18 NPT for the fuel out line to the EFI pump. Also cut off the 2 legs on the VST top that held the original pressure regulator. There was some sort of check valve inside the VST cover that was connected to the most fwd small top nipple (just below the needle seat when looking inside) this was drilled out and removed. The passages were also drilled out to max id's. this is now the the "Bleed Line Return" nipple. Most aft small top nipple will be the VST vent to atmosphere. The splash plate was removed to allow machining then reattached using 4-40 stainless screws. Only thing I've yet to do is remove the 5/16 fuel supply hose nipple and drill/tap to 1/8-27 NPT for an AN style fitting.


Mounting plate is on the mill next.......


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1911_zps821bf6c7.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1912_zpsc3dd15cf.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1915_zpsb65fa53b.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1935_zpsabfb7baa.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1938_zps377c261e.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1941_zps52123995.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_1943_zps5e190839.jpg

madgadget
09-03-2013, 06:09 AM
Interesting to see the atomisation of fuel problems with the MAD inlets. What ECU are you going to be using?

Liberator*21
09-03-2013, 07:03 AM
Currently going to start out with the OEM, making small changes one at a time, last thing I hope not to do is mod the ECU program (we'll see). I have the ability to adjust the TPS ratio vs Throttle opening which may compensate for some miss givings, as well as restricter plates made to restrict air and increase velocity, it's going to be a wait and see scenario and allot of testing over time. Theres no sense doing anything else until I've run out of tricks in my little black bag................:smiletest:.

Liberator*21
09-03-2013, 08:41 AM
Morning update on progress:


VST mounting plate done and mounted.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_3615_zpsed95a000.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_3615_zpsed95a000.jpg.html)

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_3614_zpsa37b08f8.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/XRI%20VST%20300x/IMG_3614_zpsa37b08f8.jpg.html)

PanRonnie
09-05-2013, 11:43 AM
Currently going to start out with the OEM, making small changes one at a time, last thing I hope not to do is mod the ECU program ................:smiletest:.

if you get to this point without being able to work it out with the factory stuff
a Mega-squirt MS3 might be an option
i wrote the 60-6 crank wheel mod for the MS2
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=50520

but i was uncomfortable with the MS3 assembled code
good news is they will officially add it
just don,t know when
they will speed things up if somebody is working on an engine

you would then be able to use all your hardware without any modification ( flywheel tooth pattern, ignition coils , sensors )
for your injectors you would have to wire ballast resistors or use the low impendance driver boards
as the MS3X board does only high impendance injectors

the MS3 would give you 6*6 3 dimensional tuning tables per injector
at 645 $ this is a good option

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtiii-ems-system-with-ms3x-expansion-v357-assembled-p-435.html
water proof 1049 $
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ms3pro-standalone-ecu-only-p-539.html

Liberator*21
09-05-2013, 12:33 PM
Thanks Ronnie, I'll keep that as an option.

Liberator*21
09-06-2013, 04:53 AM
Where did you get the plastic coated ball ends?

Sorry, forgot to answer your question, it's the OEM TPS arm that I cut and threaded. If you need custom ball ends check out Mc Master Carr.

mrcrsr
09-07-2013, 07:43 AM
looks great gary!! interestingly, i found the same thing w/ a big mixture distribution problem on an older style 3 litre w/ the mad intake, had to make the 1 side rich enough to live, and was never really rite. this was on the old style 3 litre/2 computer system. just keep an eye on the plugs/piston tops gary. dave just shipped the mad efi intake for my wolf engine, but i'm pretty bogged down in the gto project rite now.

Liberator*21
09-07-2013, 08:24 AM
looks great gary!! interestingly, i found the same thing w/ a big mixture distribution problem on an older style 3 litre w/ the mad intake, had to make the 1 side rich enough to live, and was never really rite. this was on the old style 3 litre/2 computer system. just keep an eye on the plugs/piston tops gary. dave just shipped the mad efi intake for my wolf engine, but i'm pretty bogged down in the gto project rite now.


Morning Charlie,

I totally understand this is a "Pandora's" Box" for my application, and I'm "NOT" under any impression that it'll run great right out of the box. It's just me....play'n and have'n fun with trying it and maybe learning something along the way.

Keep me in the loop when you start the MAD EFI Intake/Wolf ECU project, for you (as you understand the Wolf & programming) that'll make some serious power.......Best of luck with it.......;)

Liberator*21
09-09-2013, 03:04 PM
And so it begins.....................


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_3639_zpsc6385547.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_3639_zpsc6385547.jpg.html)\


Ran into a few set backs, my alternator went out Saturday ($$$$$), today I managed to break off one of the output nipples on the oil pump (more $$$$$$)............I'm gonna walk away for a day or two to cool off, I'm so freak'n livid now I'm a danger to society............:mad::leaving:

Dave Strong
09-09-2013, 10:44 PM
And so it begins.....................


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_3639_zpsc6385547.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_3639_zpsc6385547.jpg.html)\


Ran into a few set backs, my alternator went out Saturday ($$$$$), today I managed to break off one of the output nipples on the oil pump (more $$$$$$)............I'm gonna walk away for a day or two to cool off, I'm so freak'n livid now I'm a danger to society............:mad::leaving:

Gary slow down, sorry about your luck. Been there and its no fun.

Dave

Liberator*21
09-10-2013, 04:50 AM
Thanks Dave.......we've all had those "when nothing goes right days"......what I did was just a real stupid move and the part that makes it worse.......I knew better than that when working on the oil pump !!!!!!!!

So while I was away from the project, had time to sit back and reflect a little.......well no surprise, another problem I didn't think of.......

300x reed plate has a step down flange for the down draft manifold, I forgot about that and now need to machine a recess in the 1" spacer to except that 1/2" protrusion and port match.......oh well, not like I'm going anywhere soon........lol.

Before anyone ask's.....
Wouldn't it be easier to just cut down the protrusion above the flange face, "YES" it would, "BUT", if I have to do a M/Jackson Moon Walk backwards and put the down draft back on, I won't be out added $$$$$ for another 300x Reed Plate, there not exactly a dime a dozen.......LOL.

After talking to Charlie, he noted that I also could have put the spacer plate against the front half, then the reed plate, but I wanted to keep the injectors as close as possible to the motor since I won't have an adjustable ECU.

native2
09-10-2013, 06:26 AM
Subscribed

vw-nut
09-12-2013, 12:38 PM
Hey gary....
Didit that thing break your spirit or are you just taking a break from the jungle like heat... after our little rain today its back to working weather.
The guy I bought the 300x from is heading down tomorrow morning to drop it off on his way out west cant wait for that thing to show up looks like ill be swapping powerheads for a little lake time this weekend....now I have to get my hands on a 32p something and lay the ears back...
hope you get back on the "Mad" project soon your projects always turn out kick ass as im sure this one will also......
Talk soon have a good one buddy

Liberator*21
09-12-2013, 03:19 PM
Thanks Glenn, I'm back at it as we speak. Ran into another issue (oh my, what a surprise that is...........LMAO), had to reconfigure the XRI VST. Return fuel from the rail was coming back into the VST way to heavy of a stream, pushed fuel back out the bleed return line at the top of the VST. I was wondering why there was fuel dripping out of the lower intake port................LOL. Hope'n to put the fire to it tomorrow on the muffs. Wish me luck, it think I might just need it...............:D I was planning on stopping over your shop tomorrow, depending on how things go here on the project. I'll give you a call tomorrow.

I'll bet no sooner than the P/Head is dropped off you'll be wrench'n to get it on the Eliminator. Hey, I do have a 32p Drag 4 Flo Torque hub your welcome to try out, let me know. I can bring it over if I stop by the shop tomorrow.

vw-nut
09-12-2013, 05:59 PM
Turning the key Already.... Thats killer, so you didn't loose to much drive over the little hiccups you had. Sounds like you may be dropping it the water this weekend also for little dialing in....? Need a co-pilot? I would love to go if you want a hand...
We have had the week from hell here at the shop things are finally wrapping up to a normal friday so stopping by would be way cool....
I don't know how much honey badger I have left in me after this week but I do hear the water calling my name so I will probably drop on the p/head saturday morning and see what happens where I would normally stay all night friday, Im going to a new movie (first time in years) ...... Your Welcome to go kind of a guys night out kung foo movie going to the regal deerfield in mason.
if you dont mind loaning out the prop I may bolt it on and see what the gps says...Ill keep it in the deep water and nice and safe....Talk tomorrow if you call
Good Luck with the fire up Gary.... I think its gonna be way cool.....

Liberator*21
09-12-2013, 06:03 PM
Glenn,

Sending you a PM........

Chaz
09-15-2013, 09:13 PM
Return fuel from the rail was coming back into the VST way to heavy of a stream, pushed fuel back out the bleed return line at the top of the VST. I was wondering why there was fuel dripping out of the lower intake port................LOL.

When I read that you were plumbing that way, I though that it would be better to place your return in a large , non pressure fed reservoir far away from the pick up point ... like maybe the fuel tank for instance .. ;)
I always put a baffle system in place guarding the pick up point , when building a fuel tank for a race car. Returned fuel always brings along swirling and aireation problems.
But I figured you did your external pump 300x vst, like that ... so who was I to say it was a bad idea ...:cool: :D

Liberator*21
09-16-2013, 04:18 AM
Morning Chaz,

Your absolutely correct in you thoughts, but I was trying at all cost to keep from running a return line to the tank. The OPTI style VST that I ran with the down draft I had plumbed with the fuel return in the VST as well and it worked great. But the size difference between the OPTI style and this XRI VST is quite different and I really didn't even give that a thought (my bad). It's all good now, ended up making a deflector/protector for the float in the VST so it'll never see any direct fuel squirting on it effecting its free movement. Another option I was keeping in reserve was a "Tee" fitting on the VST to EFI pump supply line, for the return fuel, it would still maintain a loop of the return fuel back to the VST/EFI pump.

I went through a trial and error session playing with the TPS ratio. using the adjustable linkage, I was able to significantly alter the output signal from the TPS to come on faster or slower. I'll try to post up some more pics on progress made as I did fall behind in doing that. I'm basically ready to turn the key and fire up, but need to take care of some honey-do's first........LOL. Should be in the water by Wednesday for testing/tuning.

Liberator*21
09-18-2013, 12:36 PM
It's alive...........................idles better than the down draft.......LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IhSRiwvGwA&feature=youtu.be

ProComp
09-18-2013, 01:03 PM
nice work, hope it rips

Liberator*21
09-18-2013, 01:10 PM
nice work, hope it rips

LMAO.........Thanks, I'm not hold'n my breath, but if it runs as good as it idles, there's gotta be a little extra in there some where you'd think..............:D

scawd the dog
09-18-2013, 04:48 PM
Gary:

Your Beast Motor sounds good. :):cheers:

Liberator*21
09-18-2013, 04:52 PM
Thanks Brent, heading to the waters next week then we'll see if it runs like it sounds.....lol.

Dave Strong
09-18-2013, 08:17 PM
Sounds good. :thumbsup::D

Dave:cheers:

whipper
09-18-2013, 09:05 PM
It is a thing of beauty Gary and sounds very responsive like it wants to be on your boat at a very quick and fast rate of speed. Your built motor sounds MAD wicked!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVE IT!!:thumbsup:

R.grover
09-19-2013, 03:37 AM
sounds great mate. Am lookn at running one on my latest motors to so keep up the good work and upto date with pros and cons

Liberator*21
09-19-2013, 05:40 AM
Thanks guys, really look'n forward to hitting the water next week. I'll report back on how that goes as well.

tux974
09-19-2013, 05:53 AM
Looking good and sounding good, GL next week! :thumbsup:

whipper
09-19-2013, 10:28 AM
Thanks guys, really look'n forward to hitting the water next week. I'll report back on how that goes as well.

If there was a category of best dressed power heads yours would win!! That is one HOT looking motor!!

Capt.Insane-o
09-19-2013, 11:24 AM
LMAO.........Thanks, I'm not hold'n my breath, but if it runs as good as it idles, there's gotta be a little extra in there some where you'd think..............:D

Awsome, I may have a million questions if it runs as advertised, I'm kinda at wits end ;)

Liberator*21
09-19-2013, 12:13 PM
I'm kinda at wits end ;)

Been there............done that, but I didn't give up, this is my 3rd go around with a MAD intake............ Next week will be the tell all to all the effort put forth so far....stay tuned...:D

Liberator*21
09-19-2013, 12:15 PM
If there was a category of best dressed power heads yours would win!! That is one HOT looking motor!!

Thanks Whipper, ya gotta have a little Bling-Bling to go with the sound............LOL....:D

Dd24skater
09-19-2013, 12:55 PM
Awesome build, love the motivation and thinking outside the box. Think you might have this at the Ceaser Creek shootout? Would love to get a look.

Liberator*21
09-19-2013, 01:09 PM
Awesome build, love the motivation and thinking outside the box. Think you might have this at the Ceaser Creek shootout? Would love to get a look.

Didn't know anything about the Ceaser Creek Shoot Out, sounds interesting. Depending on where I'm at with tuning by then, I might make the trip, Oct 8th correct ????

cooterhan
09-24-2013, 07:48 PM
What kind of hp gains can you expect from this setup? looks fantastic

madgadget
09-24-2013, 08:23 PM
What would be to stop somone if they felt so inclined from welding on bosses and spraying fuel right into the crank case after the reeds?

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 04:19 AM
What kind of hp gains can you expect from this setup? looks fantastic

Honestly........unknown (if any).


What would be to stop somone if they felt so inclined from welding on bosses and spraying fuel right into the crank case after the reeds?

Absolutely nothing would stop you, let your imagination run wild. Trying new thing is what's its all about.

opsdave
09-25-2013, 05:59 AM
What would be to stop somone if they felt so inclined from welding on bosses and spraying fuel right into the crank case after the reeds?

It's already been done and works well
http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?256453-3-litre-wolf-efi-crankcase-injected-3-litre-build

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 06:55 AM
Ok, have issues posting. Trying to update yesterdays outing but keep getting bumped off, maybe due to the length of the post. Is there a limit on words/characters.....? Seem to be ok with short post like this......?

Lets try to break it up into 2 posts...............

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 06:57 AM
Update from outing yesterday.........<O:p></O:p>
Well..............Glenn (VW-NUT) and I hit the waters yesterday...............<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Things didn't go to well yesterday. Could it have been worse, hell "YES", but lets just say it's back to the drawing board to deal with air/fuel issue, that's really not a big surprise, I sort of figured it would bite me in the a$$ right from the start.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:pOk, what went down.............Major flat spots right off the trailer, tried numerous things, some helped in one area of the RPM range but failed in others. Seems there was very little to be had in the "Give and Take" senerio. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
** With the MAD Intake alone: it was either idle which was good or W.O.T. at 42 psi of fuel, nothing in the middle.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
** Upped the fuel pressure to 48 psi and it helped a little, but still very flat in the 1k to 4k RPM range, 5k up it was all out torque.<O:p></O:p>
**The torque was unreal when you put your foot in it and motor was very happy at 5k + rpm<O:p</O:p
<O:p
Continued...............</O:p

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 06:57 AM
So bottom line on just the MAD intake alone, it ran like a true drag motor: Idles in gear: GOOD and WOT torque was unreal, but nothing in the middle......LOL !!!!!<O:p</O:p
Knowingly, the problem with the MAD intake is the sudden rush of air (3 T/Bodies now vs. the 1 OEM w/the down draft). I knew that would be the issue from the git-go so............. I had already made a restrictor plate that mounted onto the front of the intake. I calculated the sq. in. opening of the OEM single T/Body for flow and placed holes in my restrictor plate closely equaling the same sq. in. opening of the OEM T/Body thereby restricting air flow close to OEM single T/Body.
<O:p</O:p
Results were dramatic to say the least.........so by restricting the air flow it ran much better, idle was still great in gear, faster (1500/1800 rpm) in gear idle was good, then flat from 2000 to2800 rpm, but 3k on up drove like a stocker.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
So during all this, I was fighting a dead alternator issue as well, so honestly at this point and time I can't condemn anything and my lack of voltage may or may not have played a part in the poor performance. So I'm leaving the setup alone for now until I can find another alternator to verify that electrical's weren't a contributing factor as we did see 11V on my digital voltage gauge and had to listen to the warning horn most of the day stating that motor went in Guardian Mode allot.<O:p</O:p
Had hoped to post up a nice video clip, but frustration set in and all I got was a shorty when Glenn (VW-NUT) and I decided to just take a little cruise and head back to the trailer. I'll try to post it up later today, I will say the if you've got good stereo speakers on your PC, then you'll appreciate the sound at motor start up....it does sound "REAL GOOD"........ Top speed was not the issue for the day as it was all about tuning nothing more. Once it's running much better than we'll move onto the next step, I gotta be able to crawl before I can run on this project. <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
On a positive note, it was still a great day on the water, nobody got hurt, nothing blew up and we didn't need a tow back in to the dock............. Life is good....<O:p</O:p

Thanks Glenn for tagging along yesterday, appreciated the help.....<O:p</O:p

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 07:00 AM
Well it seems there is a limit, if anybody knows what it is please let me know. I'm not long winded but would like to be as detailed as possible when replying or posting results..........

Thanks.

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 08:40 AM
Here's the short clip, if you've got a set of good stereo speakers w/a sub on your PC, you'll like to sound of the motor at the beginning of the clip. The run was with the restrictor plate on. You can here a little flat spot when we launched, but after that it was all good.

http://youtu.be/xD_5ix7rtBo (http://youtu.be/xD_5ix7rtBo)



Yeah I know, it kinda defeats the purpose of the intake, but just trying everything I can throw at it........

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_3632_zpsb641b681.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IMG_3632_zpsb641b681.jpg.html)

Dave Strong
09-25-2013, 08:47 AM
Here's the short clip, if you've got a set of good stereo speakers w/a sub on your PC, you'll like to sound of the motor at the beginning of the clip. The run was with the restrictor plate on. You can here a little flat spot when we launched, but after that it was all good.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv3A0DO7-_Q&feature=youtu.be

Vid comes up private.

Dave

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 08:53 AM
Sorry Dave, should be good to go now............




http://youtu.be/xD_5ix7rtBo

madgadget
09-25-2013, 04:36 PM
It's already been done and works well
http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?256453-3-litre-wolf-efi-crankcase-injected-3-litre-build

EXCELLENT THANKS. I Thought this was a valid idea. I plan to do mine similar :)

madgadget
09-25-2013, 04:40 PM
Video still private.

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 06:40 PM
Video still private.

I changed it to public and saved it.....don't know why you can't view. Try again and maybe I'll have to delete it and reload it. Let me know.

jphii
09-25-2013, 06:57 PM
I can't get the vid either Gary. Very nice work on the restrictor plate:cheers: Tip: One hole over each opening instead of three with a real velocity stack. Something like this (built for a KTM 950 FCR setup, so the boss below the bell is for mounting an air filter):

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0196/1670/products/stacks-nofilter_1024x1024.jpg?154

Liberator*21
09-25-2013, 07:48 PM
Sorry all, I had to delete the clip and upload it again:


http://youtu.be/xD_5ix7rtBo (http://youtu.be/xD_5ix7rtBo)

Dave Strong
09-25-2013, 11:47 PM
Whats withe horn going off? Does the ECU take a MAP signal from the intake? Bad signal at some throttle position's?

Dave

R.grover
09-26-2013, 01:12 AM
just a thought the tps I no that you will have a throttle shut and wot voltage but what about half open etc between the the two styles

Liberator*21
09-26-2013, 03:45 AM
I can't get the vid either Gary. Very nice work on the restrictor plate:cheers: Tip: One hole over each opening instead of three with a real velocity stack. Something like this (built for a KTM 950 FCR setup, so the boss below the bell is for mounting an air filter):

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0196/1670/products/stacks-nofilter_1024x1024.jpg?154

The restrictor plate maybe refined down the road with velocity stacks, but for now it servers it's purpose trying to get the intake tuned in....;)





Whats withe horn going off? Does the ECU take a MAP signal from the intake? Bad signal at some throttle position's?

Dave

Dave, See post #79, alternator dead, horn was from low voltage warnings.


just a thought the tps I no that you will have a throttle shut and wot voltage but what about half open etc between the the two styles
Currently working on a progressive style linkage that will or may cover the flat spots. Obviously there's a tremendous amount of air off idle, progressive linkage should move the TPS at (example) an approximate 2:1 ratio, so coming off idle almost instantly puts it into a mid range position.

mrcrsr
09-26-2013, 06:41 AM
gary, i wonder if it has something to do with the signal to the map sensor? have you put a ddt on it and checked to see what the reading is? someone also posted about going to crankcase injection, it probably can't be done w/ the stock ecu, the point in time of injection is different and i basically had to change my whole fuel curve from my first engine to get it all to work

Liberator*21
09-26-2013, 07:05 AM
Morning Charlie,

MAP sensor checks out perfect on the DDT, matter of fact, I had 2 and checked them both. It's obvious that there's not enough fuel available when she comes off idle as felt by the stumble. After adding the restrictor plate, off idle response was much better (still not perfect) which proves my theory too much air/lack of fuel senerio. I'm going to run a vacuum signal to the EFI reg. to set if I'll gain enough psi to help cover the off idle bogg. It's all a work in progress......lol.

mrcrsr
09-26-2013, 07:21 AM
adding vacuum will drop the fuel pres at idle slitely. i just wonder if you have some kind of pulsation feeding the vac signal to the map. maybe put an inline restrictor in the vac line to the map sensor

Liberator*21
09-26-2013, 07:34 AM
adding vacuum will drop the fuel pres at idle slitely. i just wonder if you have some kind of pulsation feeding the vac signal to the map. maybe put an inline restrictor in the vac line to the map sensor

Charlie, please explain in detail on inline restrictor for MAP signal......

On the EFI reg. when vacuum port controlled.............when vacuum is applied (at idle) pressure is set to 42-44 PSI, once vacuum is reduced (throttle opens) the pressure builds up to 48-50 psi. That's the way mine works.

mrcrsr
09-26-2013, 09:16 AM
exactly, on the fuel pressure. as far as the restrictor imagine an inline double ended hose barb w/ a .010-.020 orifice in the center, that slows down/evens out the vacuum pulses that the map mite be seeing w/ that intake design.

Liberator*21
09-26-2013, 09:36 AM
exactly, on the fuel pressure. as far as the restrictor imagine an inline double ended hose barb w/ a .010-.020 orifice in the center, that slows down/evens out the vacuum pulses that the map mite be seeing w/ that intake design.

I'll make a restrictor orfice up to try, thks Charlie

PanRonnie
09-26-2013, 10:27 AM
if you make that a T fitting in the MAP tube with a regulator valve
http://www.conrad.nl/ce/nl/product/239321/Reely-Brandstofkraan-Soort-filter-Zeef-filter
( RC model fuel engines parts )
you could try to bleed in more air to the MAP sensor to get a richer mixture
bypassing the manifold vacuum
and retune the TPS for the richer mixture at idle
but it,s all just :(

Liberator*21
09-26-2013, 10:41 AM
Ronnie, I'll keep that in mind. As for tuning the TPS for a richer mix, that can only be done with a ratio change off the throttle. The TPS regardless of its position is recognized by the ECU at key up and that reading is what the ECU assumes is idle.

Dave Strong
09-26-2013, 07:22 PM
I'll make a restrictor orfice up to try, thks Charlie

Think Charlie is on the right track. Remember reading about something like the issue your having when the first SVS's came out for the 2.5 Pro Max's the fix had something to do with the vac signal to ECU, once you got it right they worked great.

Dave

Liberator*21
10-01-2013, 04:22 AM
Going out testing today with the progressive ratio linkage and a spare MAP sensor w/a .020 restriction in it. Will try both but one at a time.


This video is a mock up for concept..........You'll notice on the lower linkage arm, a black dot on top, that's the OEM ratio position for the TPS (1 to1 ratio). With the modified lower linkage arm the ratio is increased where at 1/4 throttle, the TPS is tricked in to 50% output and at 1/2 throttle its already sensing WOT. The slide linkage had to be made to protect the TPS as with the ratio change theres more travel of the linkage than the TPS would allow.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/th_Linkage1_zpse6a69f7b.jpg (http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/Linkage1_zpse6a69f7b.mp4)

Frank Molé
10-01-2013, 05:46 AM
looks very trick,that should work...................

Dave Strong
10-01-2013, 08:48 AM
Good luck.

Dave

Liberator*21
10-01-2013, 11:40 AM
I'm back after my outing this morning...........................

And I'm happier than someone who just hit the lottery !!!!!!!!!!!!!

A perfect outing, it ran flawlessly, no bog, no flat spots, great idle in gear, instant acceleration, tons of mid range pull. Seems my little progressive linkage works............:reddevil:;):D

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Cockpit%20Cover/th_MyMovie_GMR_zps1e69973a.jpg (http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Cockpit%20Cover/MyMovie_GMR_zps1e69973a.mp4)

vw-nut
10-01-2013, 03:35 PM
Gary!!
That was a sweeeeet ride!! Way different than the first ride.....
way cool! That thing is well mannered and extremely driveable !!
Great job man!!
cant wait for the saturday shootout on ceasers.....see ya saturday buddy!

Dave Strong
10-01-2013, 07:07 PM
Good job never a doubt in my mind. ;):thumbsup:

Dave:cheers:

mrcrsr
10-01-2013, 07:13 PM
its probably dumping a lot of fuel in it gary, did you do a plug reading? how does it run as far as performance compared to the downdraft system? did you try the map restrictor?

Liberator*21
10-01-2013, 07:33 PM
Good job never a doubt in my mind. ;):thumbsup:

Dave:cheers:

Thanks Dave for that vote of confedince, appreciate it greatly....:D


its probably dumping a lot of fuel in it gary, did you do a plug reading? how does it run as far as performance compared to the downdraft system? did you try the map restrictor?

Charlie, fresh set of plugs, hard pass and pulled them, they're reading dark brown, I'd rather have it a little rich over lean. Pulls much, much harder than the down draft any where in the RPM range you punch it. The .020 restricted MAP sensor made no difference at all that I could tell. It runs great, so I'm leaving well enough alone......lol.

baja200merk
10-01-2013, 08:15 PM
sounds good, well done!


Could be the gopro but it looks like that motor moves around a ton, might want to see if your steering has some air in it. :cheers:

Dave Strong
10-01-2013, 08:39 PM
Thanks Dave for that vote of confedince, appreciate it greatly....:D



Charlie, fresh set of plugs, hard pass and pulled them, they're reading dark brown, I'd rather have it a little rich over lean. Pulls much, much harder than the down draft any where in the RPM range you punch it. The .020 restricted MAP sensor made no difference at all that I could tell. It runs great, so I'm leaving well enough alone......lol.

So your wizzy linkage was the fix?

Dave

opsdave
10-01-2013, 09:16 PM
its probably dumping a lot of fuel in it gary, did you do a plug reading? how does it run as far as performance compared to the downdraft system? did you try the map restrictor?

Exactly what that intake likes.... a ton of fuel! I'd like to hear the fuel consumption difference after a day of boating.

Good job Gary! I'll be running my downdraft soon. I kinda wish I would have left it on the Checkmate for a better comparison.

R.grover
10-02-2013, 12:05 AM
that kool its up and running. did you pic up any rpms and mph? do you run pyros? if so temps?

Liberator*21
10-02-2013, 03:45 AM
sounds good, well done!


Could be the gopro but it looks like that motor moves around a ton, might want to see if your steering has some air in it. :cheers:

I saw that too when I downloaded the clip, already on it, yeah it did have some air in it. Thanks for the catch.......:thumbsup:.
I seriously doubt all the movement will go away as there's allot more torque at the prop than ever before.....:reddevil:


So your wizzy linkage was the fix?

Dave

Well partly Dave, cranked up the fuel pressure, added vacuum port control on the EFI fuel reg., changed the ratio of advance for the TPS, loaded the bottom end with lots of fuel to cover the sudden amount of air the motor see's off idle and mid range.


Exactly what that intake likes.... a ton of fuel! I'd like to hear the fuel consumption difference after a day of boating.

Good job Gary! I'll be running my downdraft soon. I kinda wish I would have left it on the Checkmate for a better comparison.

Thanks Dave. Your totally correct, with 3x plus, the amount of air the motor sees, fuel is the answer. As for fuel usage, it really shouldn't be much more than before, only heavy fuel usage would be off idle and mid range and I don't spend much time at either one.......LOL.


that kool its up and running. did you pic up any rpms and mph? do you run pyros? if so temps?

Didn't log any numbers from the test session as it was only time spent to get the intake working properly, I do run pyros, and temps were around 1300/1350 at WOT. The prop I was running was an old stand by, not in the greatest shape.

PanRonnie
10-02-2013, 05:14 AM
Thanks Dave for that vote of confedince, appreciate it greatly....:D



It runs great, so I'm leaving well enough alone......lol.

yeah like that,s going to happen !!!! ;)
but otherwise great job
compliments for your fabrication work
btw if you have a smart phone you could use something like this to log speed and acceleration
www.sports-tracker.com

Liberator*21
10-02-2013, 06:22 AM
yeah like that,s going to happen !!!! ;)
but otherwise great job
compliments for your fabrication work
btw if you have a smart phone you could use something like this to log speed and acceleration
www.sports-tracker.com (http://www.sports-tracker.com)

Thanks Ronnie,

You know me all to well......:D.

I am going to re-fab a few parts that were just saw cut/drilled and used for test over the coming winter months. The linkage system will also get a rebuild in an effort to eliminate as much friction as possible in the collapsible rod section, I'll be using Teflon material to accomplish that.

mrcrsr
10-02-2013, 06:30 AM
nice gary, i'd be interested about the fuel consumption as well. i'm hoping the intake makes a difference on my project. i reviewed the old fuel maps from the mad efi/ wolf and fueling numbers are much higher then what i have now. i originally chalked it up to just not being set up properly, maybe it does need that much fuel

opsdave
10-02-2013, 06:35 AM
Charlie
I'm sure you'll be adding fuel to your map. When I tried to run your setup last year it would just fall on its face when I backed out of the throttle once I got up on plane. I wish I would have spent more time tuning it. I'm sure you'll love it.

Da Bull
10-02-2013, 07:03 AM
I`m so glad i read this whole thread. Gary, You`ve done a very nice job and have peaked my interest in my project again. Mine is a 300XS block with everything else comming from a 1998 300PM with the same MAD intake you have. Only two problem`s i`ve had are #1, I scuffed 5 pistons (5 differant holes) one at a time after i built the motor (piston dome`s were dark color). Charlie streightened me out on that. Not enough break in time. I cranked the fuel psi up to 50lbs and rode for two month`s then backed it down to 40lbs. No more scuffed piston`s. Runs great.
#2 problem, Off idle lean spot (sound familiar?). With my two computer system i can`t adjust fuel curve so i increased fuel psi to 42psi and it helped the problem but not solved. Only solution is to idle and only idle in no wake zone`s. Now that i`ve read your thread i`m going to try your fancy linkage on my tps. Makes sence to me.

Thanks
DB

Liberator*21
10-02-2013, 07:11 AM
nice gary, i'd be interested about the fuel consumption as well. i'm hoping the intake makes a difference on my project. i reviewed the old fuel maps from the mad efi/ wolf and fueling numbers are much higher then what i have now. i originally chalked it up to just not being set up properly, maybe it does need that much fuel


Charlie,

No matter how you slice it.............

"You will be spending more time at the pump"

When you consider that you've got (est.> 2.5 to 3 times) more incoming air than a OEM T/B can flow, well needless to say the only thing that will cover all that "FREE" air is expensive "FUEL"........

I rest my case......see ya at the pumps Charlie, I know I'll be there.....

Liberator*21
10-02-2013, 07:23 AM
I`m so glad i read this whole thread. Gary, You`ve done a very nice job and have peaked my interest in my project again. Mine is a 300XS block with everything else comming from a 1998 300PM with the same MAD intake you have. Only two problem`s i`ve had are #1, I scuffed 5 pistons (5 differant holes) one at a time after i built the motor (piston dome`s were dark color). Charlie streightened me out on that. Not enough break in time. I cranked the fuel psi up to 50lbs and rode for two month`s then backed it down to 40lbs. No more scuffed piston`s. Runs great.
#2 problem, Off idle lean spot (sound familiar?). With my two computer system i can`t adjust fuel curve so i increased fuel psi to 42psi and it helped the problem but not solved. Only solution is to idle and only idle in no wake zone`s. Now that i`ve read your thread i`m going to try your fancy linkage on my tps. Makes sence to me.

Thanks
DB

DB,

Thank you, it really shouldn't matter if your on the 2 ECU's vs. the single late model. The key is tricking the TPS into adding more fuel off idle and into the mid range. Like I told Charlie, you've got to cover that sudden off idle to mid range incoming air with lots of fuel. Think of using the TPS like an old Holley Carb accelerator pump, remember when you could change the pump cams on those, that's what has to be done w/the TPS, ya gotta get it to squirt more. Best of luck to ya......

R.grover
10-03-2013, 02:58 AM
keep up the good work mate. id love to try a mad from on my 3.0l tried all the other intakes out there and think I need more air. im running twin computers to

tux974
10-03-2013, 05:32 AM
Gary, you made some great progress, looking real good! I think the work & progress is the fun of these projects and to have a positive end result makes things that much sweeter!
Keep up the good work and pics!!!!

Tony

Liberator*21
10-03-2013, 05:48 AM
Gary, you made some great progress, looking real good! I think the work & progress is the fun of these projects and to have a positive end result makes things that much sweeter!
Keep up the good work and pics!!!!

Tony

Tony,

Thanks for the complements. Your 100% correct, me being retired and having unlimited time on my hands (now don't be jealous;)) makes things like this possible on my end, as does having a body of water to test in only 5 miles from the house makes it even more doable. This is my third MAD intake attempt, first on a mod'd 225 EFI/Wolf V500 ECU and then on my o'l 250 mod'd EFI/with Simon reflashed ECU's and I would guess that the o'l saying is correct; "Third Times A Charm"....:)

tux974
10-03-2013, 05:55 AM
Tony,

"Third Times A Charm"....:)

We would NOT be happy the first or second time anyway....:nonod: once you step back you immediately find things we would have or love to do differently maybe even better :eek:;):D

Liberator*21
10-03-2013, 06:26 AM
We would NOT be happy the first or second time anyway....:nonod: once you step back you immediately find things we would have or love to do differently maybe even better :eek:;):D


LMAO big time...........yeah, need drama to make it work, with this ruthless bunch on here (no names mentioned, but you know who you are.....LOL), if there's no pain along the way, you'll get boo'd for sure............LOL.

Tare care....:D

Da Bull
10-03-2013, 06:44 AM
keep up the good work mate. id love to try a mad from on my 3.0l tried all the other intakes out there and think I need more air. im running twin computers to



Speaking for myself the MAD three horn did wonders for me. Four years ago when i bought it i put it on my old stock 225 3.0L replacing the four butterfly stockie and noticed an emidiate gain soon as i nailed the gas. Sure i had a few flat spots but an increase in fuel psi solved them all except for the off idle. Now i have it on the 300XS block and a differant boat and still love it.

I`ll know next week if Gary`s TPI trick works. I don`t see why not. Speaking of the TPI i have a question. Gary, Do you know if the TPI trick will also move the timming up faster along with more fuel?

DB

Liberator*21
10-03-2013, 06:58 AM
Speaking for myself the MAD three horn did wonders for me. Four years ago when i bought it i put it on my old stock 225 3.0L replacing the four butterfly stockie and noticed an emidiate gain soon as i nailed the gas. Sure i had a few flat spots but an increase in fuel psi solved them all except for the off idle. Now i have it on the 300XS block and a differant boat and still love it.

I`ll know next week if Gary`s TPI trick works. I don`t see why not. Speaking of the TPI i have a question. Gary, Do you know if the TPI trick will also move the timming up faster along with more fuel?

DB


DB,

The linkage mod to the TPS on mine covered all the lean spots when the sudden rush of air was met with lots of fuel, I don't see why yours would be any different, other than yours being a DI motor. Key is to tricking the motor to dump more fuel sooner, that's done by the ratio change to the TPS.

Da Bull
10-03-2013, 07:56 AM
When i read your first post on this it made complete sence to me. Also the extra fuel may add to your great idle sound in your vid. Mine sounds pretty healthy with the MAD 15" mid and i made my own bell shaped tuner. I call it the liberty bell because it is so big. Works pretty good too.

DB

Liberator*21
10-03-2013, 08:45 AM
When i read your first post on this it made complete sence to me. Also the extra fuel may add to your great idle sound in your vid. Mine sounds pretty healthy with the MAD 15" mid and i made my own bell shaped tuner. I call it the liberty bell because it is so big. Works pretty good too.

DB


I think its time for you to post up a vid of that baby idling and running, would love to hear it......:D

Da Bull
10-03-2013, 12:37 PM
LOL, I`ll have to get my bud (petehubbell) to do that for me being he is computer savy. Me. I`m a hunt and peck type of guy. I have a pic of a 300pm mid that i did an exaust mod on and can`t even find that! I wanted to post it on your other thread. I still have the mid tho so i can take another pic. I basicly coppied the MAD mid with an extention behind the original mid and had the exaust dump streight down and behind like the MAD. Had i seen your mod with the hole i would have prolly done that instead.

DB

Liberator*21
10-09-2013, 04:56 AM
Latest testing results;

Seems that the added fuel to the motor was the right move......" BUT", I think I've hit a wall on fuel supply as the motor seems to limit itself on the top end. Even though I'm dumping max fuel, it's still not enough on the top end. As my project continues to teach me something new everyday, it's very frustrating but very interesting as well.......;)

I'm moving onto playing with the IAT sensor next, as tricking it is worth another 10% increase in fuel delivery to the motor......

mrcrsr
10-09-2013, 06:21 AM
is the boat any faster gary? just curious how you are making out!!

malexie
10-09-2013, 06:56 AM
What RPM are you getting on top end?

Da Bull
10-09-2013, 07:12 AM
Marty, I heard through the grapevine that you found/solved your power problem that was limiting your motor. Way-2-go.

DB

Liberator*21
10-09-2013, 07:21 AM
is the boat any faster gary? just curious how you are making out!!

Charlie, the torque is there, you can't miss that when you stab it, but I'm running out of fuel at WOT. Motor runs up against a wall at 80/82. Gotta give it some more fuel via the IAT sensor next time out. I'm going to pack the IAT sensor in crushed ice and make another pass, that should confirm my lack of fuel theory as the sensor should allow additional fuel thinking it needs to run richer due to the temp drop.


What RPM are you getting on top end?

The issue at hand now is......I'm not getting to the actual motors rpm limits/top end:

5900/6100 @ 83MPH/28P O/Shore Chopper II, there's more there just need to kick in the afterburner (once I find it.....;):D).

Liberator*21
10-09-2013, 07:34 AM
Marty, I heard through the grapevine that you found/solved your power problem that was limiting your motor. Way-2-go.

DB

Is this something we'd like to share ?????????????

malexie
10-09-2013, 08:27 AM
Is this something we'd like to share ?????????????


Add some compression. It will come alive.

Liberator*21
10-09-2013, 02:56 PM
Add some compression. It will come alive.

You talk'n like 150'ish ? Cutting the heads is already on the "To do List" and I had planned for 150 but I need to get my fuel issue under control first. If you have a number that works great, please share...... :D

malexie
10-09-2013, 03:15 PM
150 will work just fine.

Da Bull
10-09-2013, 06:34 PM
150 is where i have mine and i run on pump preimum (93 octain) with no issues.

DB

Dave Strong
10-09-2013, 07:06 PM
Gary I thought you had high comp heads on that motor at one time?

Dave

R.grover
10-10-2013, 03:05 AM
what cc heads you running to get 150psi? what fuel psi you running?

Liberator*21
10-10-2013, 04:12 AM
Gary I thought you had high comp heads on that motor at one time?

Dave

Dave,
Your correct Dave, I had a pair of MAD EFI Billet Heads, they were a "little" over 150'ish.......LOL !!!!!! I changed back to stock when I blew the motor last year on a load of bad fuel.




Grover,
I run premium 93/94 octane & Aces when on the road. I can't remember the exact cc's for 150 psi compression, Charlie would probably know.......


DB,
Did you do the linkage mod yet ??????? Report back when you, would like to have some feed back.

Da Bull
10-10-2013, 05:08 PM
I didn`t do a modification per say. I simply moved the tpi back against the movement of the throttle blade shaft. I didn`t put my DVA meter on it either. It did make a noticeable differance in the sound on the hose. Sounds "nasty". I`ll report more when i have time to take it to the lake as i`m in the middle of moving right now.

DB

Liberator*21
10-10-2013, 05:16 PM
Sounds "nasty"

DB

I'm hoping the"Nasty" your referring to is as in, Sounds Bad A$$....LOL. Sounds like it's seeing more fuel by the audible change in the exhaust.

Da Bull
10-10-2013, 11:51 PM
Yep, Thats what i ment. I can relate this to installing a larger cam in a hot rod or going to larger jets in a carb. At least at idle anyway. I don`t know what effect it will have at top end or even cruise speed. I didn`t have any problems in those area`s. We`ll see.

DB

mrcrsr
10-11-2013, 06:34 AM
memory serves correct 60-61 cc yields 150 psi w/ a 300x factory piston, i'd have to check my notes to be sure

Liberator*21
10-11-2013, 06:35 PM
Update to where I'm heading next......IAT Sensor;

I've placed a micro switch activated by the TPS arm that will be sending a switchable signal to the ECU/PCM. Normal IAT signal during normal running, but a changed ITA signal at WOT. The signal change is in resistance, I'm able to trick the ECM/PCM at WOT that the air temp is 32 degrees, this signals the ECU/PCM to add additional fuel to compensate for the very cold temp signal its getting. Another benefit to this is a little timing bump as well, the additional fuel amounts to a 10% increase. Here's my mock and up as always, its a work in progress situation:


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/20131011_161728_zps77ea28a6.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/20131011_161728_zps77ea28a6.jpg.html)

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/20131011_160652_zps4d9ed68a.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/20131011_160652_zps4d9ed68a.jpg.html)

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/20131011_160733_zpsb4262b1a.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/20131011_160733_zpsb4262b1a.jpg.html)

Dave Strong
10-11-2013, 08:47 PM
Gary just thinking out loud but a lot of what your doing might be fixed buy just going to bigger injectors??? Just a thought.


Dave

Liberator*21
10-12-2013, 04:02 AM
Gary just thinking out loud but a lot of what your doing might be fixed buy just going to bigger injectors??? Just a thought.


Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the suggestion, I'm kinda looking at it like this, I'm going to try everything I can without having to lay out some serious cash. As much as the thought of bigger injectors sounds right for WOT, it may really screw up the idle to mid range. It's very obvious that the issue here is lack of fuel since I've now got an abundance of air available. Under my current setup, I'm not that far away from getting it right as I'm running great till the motor hits a wall in the low 80's.

I got an email from a buddy and he recommended a "Piggy Back" controller system may help. All these ideas are great but there each about $500 a pop with no guarantee of success. What I'm doing is also a great learning experience for me as EFI is still relatively new to me and I'm learning on the fly and besides I'm having fun doing it. Boating days are becoming limited here as winter draws ever closer so I'll continue on my present path and then we'll see what next year has in store.

mrcrsr
10-12-2013, 07:20 AM
gary, when you take the air temp sensor out like that it will set an alarm and code in the ecm, not sure if it will cause the engine to limit or not.

Liberator*21
10-12-2013, 09:28 AM
gary, when you take the air temp sensor out like that it will set an alarm and code in the ecm, not sure if it will cause the engine to limit or not.

Charlie,

In theory.......
Sensor will still be in the manifold connected to the ECM under normal running...... "BUT", when I hit WOT it switches the resistance signal sent to the ECU as if the temps just dropped to freezing and when I let off of it goes back to normal operation reading the IAT Sensor.

Dave Strong
10-12-2013, 06:00 PM
Dave,

Thanks for the suggestion, I'm kinda looking at it like this, I'm going to try everything I can without having to lay out some serious cash. As much as the thought of bigger injectors sounds right for WOT, it may really screw up the idle to mid range. It's very obvious that the issue here is lack of fuel since I've now got an abundance of air available. Under my current setup, I'm not that far away from getting it right as I'm running great till the motor hits a wall in the low 80's.

I got an email from a buddy and he recommended a "Piggy Back" controller system may help. All these ideas are great but there each about $500 a pop with no guarantee of success. What I'm doing is also a great learning experience for me as EFI is still relatively new to me and I'm learning on the fly and besides I'm having fun doing it. Boating days are becoming limited here as winter draws ever closer so I'll continue on my present path and then we'll see what next year has in store.

Just thinking crazy but what about another set of injectors that only kick in at high rpm, kinda like secondary's an a 4 barrel carb??
Seen that type of fuel enrichment used with superchagers and turbos on 4 stroke EFI's in the early
90's.

Dave

opsdave
10-12-2013, 09:09 PM
I say keep it simple.... Once you figure out that you need xx% more fuel at wot send the ECU off to Simon and have it flashed and you're done. The injectors should be big enough to support the needs of that intake.

Liberator*21
10-13-2013, 04:15 AM
Just thinking crazy but what about another set of injectors that only kick in at high rpm, kinda like secondary's an a 4 barrel carb??
Seen that type of fuel enrichment used with superchagers and turbos on 4 stroke EFI's in the early
90's.

Dave

Dave S,

Yep, that would work, but again I'm trying to use everything available that the motor has to offer using DIY technology with minimal impact to the motor. After all it's still a family boat at times and I don't want to depart to far from that usage either.


I say keep it simple.... Once you figure out that you need xx% more fuel at wot send the ECU off to Simon and have it flashed and you're done. The injectors should be big enough to support the needs of that intake.

Hey Dave,

Exactly.......Keep it as simple as possible. Your right on with the re-flash after I figure what it needs fuel wise. To send the ECU off now would be a gamble as I'm so close to getting it right. Last thing I want to do is throw an unknown % increase relating to fuel at the motor that may end up being to much and end up doing more harm than good. Baby steps is what I'm do'n...........lol.

opsdave
10-13-2013, 04:44 AM
That was my exact thoughts Gary. Getting running well, then have it flashed. You're getting there!

whipper
10-13-2013, 04:50 AM
As you say you cant reflash without getting her on a dyno like DBR,s to monitor every little detail you've done and were you need more or less. If you had her hooked up now to see what's going on inside exactly, the acu can be adjusted on the fly I think these days to get the best possible outcome with egt,s,air mass,fuel flow, hp, torque were and when then map to perfection. Then your tune could be saved so you always get the same results if you were to do this to other motors. I think the power head needs a trip to the docs to get hooked up at this point for the final tuning .:cheers:

mrcrsr
10-13-2013, 07:49 AM
you can't use an acu on a 300x, it is a motorola engine. a reflash is 650$ and probably won't be rite the first time, i couldn't imagine trying to set up a fuel curve without have the engine here to tune. the price of the wolf looks better every time! i can tell you on steve's engine if the iat sensor is disconnected it will set an alarm, on the last bit of tuning we did to get wot and midrange correct we got the fuel pressure down to 39 psi(his has a modified 300x computer done by mercury) and the curve up top was fat. anyway, the motor wouldn't cold start so we unplugged the iat to fire it when cold, and it set an alarm every time. a cheap route would be to use a microsqirt or megasquirt computer, feed it the tach signal and have it fire an additional injector or 2 into the plenum at the problem rpm points. another way that may be better is to use an msd rpm switch, and intercept a coolant temp sensor, at a particular rpm the switch triggers, use a relay and use both terminals, 87 and 87a, install a resistor on the one terminal that is triggered thru the relay. that way the relay when unpowered(or untriggered) uses the cts as normal, when relay is triggered it is intercepting the cts signal and modifying it, as the cts has more effect then the air temp sensor. select your resistors by using the ddt and trying different resistors tied into the cts wiring until you come up w/ a range of say 70 degrees up to 100 degrees, that way you have an idea of what each one will do.

Liberator*21
10-13-2013, 08:39 AM
Charlie,

Thank you for the additional info.....:thumbsup: !!!!!

Here's where I'm at currently. Added a micro switch that will take the IAT from normal temps readings to 32 degrees @ WOT. As seen by the clip below in the garage, temps is 72 degrees, IAT reading is 10200k Ohms, when I go to WOT, change sent to the PCM is now 32800k ohms (32 degrees in air temp). we'll see if it helps the big end any. I shouldn't get any alarms as the IAT is being read all the time, just the output signal changes.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/th_IATVid_zps37da7209.jpg (http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/MAD%20EFI%20TPS%20LINKAGE%20and%20TEMP%20SENSOR/IATVid_zps37da7209.mp4)

R.grover
10-15-2013, 02:57 AM
gary the project seems to be slowly workn out for you. dose any one no of any second hand mad efi units for sale?

Liberator*21
10-15-2013, 04:17 AM
gary the project seems to be slowly workn out for you. dose any one no of any second hand mad efi units for sale?

Rick,

I replied to your PM, call me today, 12 noon your time/7 PM my time. As for another MAD Intake being available, there's not many out there in the used parts market. Took awhile for me to find this one, just gotta keep put'n the word out there your look'n and check the parts board weekly.

I went out yesterday with the modified IAT design I did, and it did help the top end a little in speed and additional RPM's, so that alone is worth money in the bank, it positively confirms the need for more fuel at WOT which I knew all along, but had to confirm by real numbers. Working on another approach to added fuel at WOT now, more to follow as I get into it. My time to play is growing short as o'l man winter is on my door step knocking on the door, I'm try'n to put him off as long as I can but it's getting harder and harder everyday.......;)

R.grover
10-22-2013, 03:48 AM
all the bugs sorted now mate? was good to talk to you on the fone the other day mate

Liberator*21
10-22-2013, 04:16 AM
all the bugs sorted now mate? was good to talk to you on the fone the other day mate

Rick,

Great talking to you as well and I wish you the best in all your projects. O'l man winter has opened the door here in my neck of the woods so on water testing will be coming to a close for now.... :(. I am continuing to work technical issues on paper and in the shop. Looking at a piggy back fuel delivery system to provide additional fuel only at WOT as that's where I'm still lacking. I'm looking at adding 3 injectors to my current system, one in each horn, as for controlling the system I'm looking at a SDS EM1, triggered by either RPM sensor or micro switch. Have to redesign all the throttle/TPS linkage as the 3 added injectors will interfere in that area since it's all mounted on that side, so I'm basically starting over again.

To make things even worse, my o'l P4 H/T Dell Workstation took a dump on me so I can't do any CAD layout work till my new system arrives, I just decided to spring for a new HP Workstation w/I7 Quad Core processor and move into the latest technology for workstations. That was obviously a huge hit to my pocket book that wasn't planned for, but never the less needed.......lol.

PanRonnie
10-22-2013, 05:53 AM
gary the project seems to be slowly workn out for you. dose any one no of any second hand mad efi units for sale?

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?222654-2-SVS-intakes-for-use-with-300x-reed-plate
these would be fun maybe he still has them!

Da Bull
10-22-2013, 07:30 AM
Even if they are sold they are SVS brand so i`m sure new ones can be made if somebody wanted it.

DB

Da Bull
10-28-2013, 06:28 PM
Well i tried the TPI trick and today got it wet but it doesn`t work on my system. It was worth a try tho.

DB

Liberator*21
10-28-2013, 06:39 PM
Well i tried the TPI trick and today got it wet but it doesn`t work on my system. It was worth a try tho.

DB

Can't imagine why it wouldn't work........, post up a pic of how you achieved the change in throttle ratio..

Da Bull
10-28-2013, 09:36 PM
I didn`t change any ratio. I simply turned the TPI back into it`s movement. Sounded like a good idea but these computers are smarter than us. it must have seen what i did and made adjustments. It did solve the low rpm flat spot but around 4000rpm it would just quit just like i had turned off the key. After doing this three time i went back to the original setting and altho i got the flat spot back it would now run up to 6000rpm. I may try to increase the fuel psi from 39lbs to maybe 45lbs sence the TPI trick seemed to eliminate the flat spot with more fuel. If it wants more fuel i`m gonna give it some.

DB

Liberator*21
10-29-2013, 03:14 AM
Your right, the ECM is smarter than that. The ECM/PCU uses it's position "AT KEY UP" and says that's the starting set point and then calibrates itself from there, so by rotating the TPS you've not really gained anything as it's only looking for a place to start its calibration for the rest of its travel. The only way to over ride that is to alter the TPS advance ratio. TPS must be at around .400'ish at key up, then the TPS advance ratio needs to be 2x for the rest of the stroke. So at mid range your TPS should be already reading that your at WOT, that's what I met by changing the ratio of TPS advance. If memory serves me right, the distance from the OEM downdraft pivot bolt on the T/Body cam to the TPS rod attachment point is about 1.00", that's the OEM ratio of TPS advance throughout the range of travel. My current ratio is about 1.875 almost double that of the OEM ratio. Don't be afraid to crank up the fuel pressure, I've run with up to 58 PSI and no problems and at 58 PSI it did help allot.

Look at the first set of pics that show the lower TPS linkage arm than look at post #159, in that video clip you'll notice that the lower TPS linkage arm has gotten bigger in advance ratio, that's the key to more fuel sooner. The TPS value always returns and starts at .45 at idle.

Da Bull
10-29-2013, 11:41 PM
I do understand what your talking about. My type of tps is mounted directly to the throttle blade shaft so it would be a 1 to 1 ratio. I will have to study on making some sort of gizmo bracket to do what you have done. I have one more boating event on the day after Thanksgiving and after that i`ll take it apart and design something. I`m thinking about some sort of carb linkage parts.

DB

Liberator*21
10-30-2013, 05:30 AM
DB,

Sorry man, I was thinking you had the square TPS.............:o

Liberator*21
10-31-2013, 05:11 AM
Ok boys, old man winter is finally here so this project is on hold till spring, thanks for ride'n along, it's been a fun ride, learned allot and I'm sure there's still more to learn...........

To be continued spring 2014.............:cheers::D

opsdave
10-31-2013, 05:39 AM
Such a bummer Gary! I was really hoping to run mine before it got cold. Between working 30+ 10 hour nights without a day off and trying to keep up with things at home all I had time to do was fire it up on the hose. I sure wish we had another month of warm weather.

Liberator*21
10-31-2013, 05:44 AM
Such a bummer Gary! I was really hoping to run mine before it got cold. Between working 30+ 10 hour nights without a day off and trying to keep up with things at home all I had time to do was fire it up on the hose. I sure wish we had another month of warm weather.

I was kinda hoping to hear you had run it already too, but I know how the time gets away from you, well at least I did before I retired.......lol. Now at least you've got something to look forward to come spring time.

opsdave
10-31-2013, 05:57 AM
I was kinda hoping to hear you had run it already too, but I know how the time gets away from you, well at least I did before I retired.......lol. Now at least you've got something to look forward to come spring time.

It won't be easy. These outages make it hard to get stuff done. I have another one in the spring. We start around April 15th and run right up to Memorial Day weekend. Just in time for my week in OBX! Now that the motor is hung and rigged all I'll need is some clean water on the river and a nice spring day. I also have the old 2.4 rebuilt and hung on the Checkmate. I have a little bit of rigging left to do and then I'll have to put some break in time on the powerhead. It's gonna be a big change going from the MAD/Wolf back to the old 2.4/200.

Da Bull
10-31-2013, 07:39 AM
DB,

Sorry man, I was thinking you had the square TPS.............:o


After looking at you video of your spring linkage working i now fully understand how it works. This makes me feel stupid for trying to do it the way i did. Now i will be going about it in a differant way. As long as it remains at the stock setting at both idle and wide open throttle and all i`m changing is the rate in which it gets there. The video made it all clear to me. I get it now. Thanks

DB

Liberator*21
10-31-2013, 07:42 AM
After looking at you video of your spring linkage working i now fully understand how it works. This makes me feel stupid for trying to do it the way i did. Now i will be going about it in a differant way. As long as it remains at the stock setting at both idle and wide open throttle and all i`m changing is the rate in which it gets there. The video made it all clear to me. I get it now. Thanks

DB

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

mrcrsr
11-03-2013, 07:21 AM
put a jacket and helmet on gary and dave:p we got a cold front, it is 65 here now, a lil chilly!! i was looking forward to see how you made out w/ the intake, i'll go back to working on the boat once i get the gto back together-i have 3 weeks left and a pile of parts to reinstall on the car!

opsdave
11-03-2013, 07:24 AM
We have been lucky to see 65 for a high in weeks. We have had frost already on more days than I care to count!! I still haven't given up yet, but it's not looking good for me to get out. I thought for sure you would have had the MAD mounted up by now...

Liberator*21
11-03-2013, 08:30 AM
put a jacket and helmet on gary and dave:p we got a cold front, it is 65 here now, a lil chilly!! i was looking forward to see how you made out w/ the intake, i'll go back to working on the boat once i get the gto back together-i have 3 weeks left and a pile of parts to reinstall on the car!

Charlie,
See, that's the difference between what I'm used to and your used to, 65 and your chilly, where as I'll take that and call it warm.......lol. All things considered the intake project has been great, learned allot as it was all mostly on the fly and what if's being tried out, but that's the fun part. As it sits now, It'll run up to low 80's and then run out of fuel, so it's not like I had a boat that wouldn't run, it just wouldn't run at its max potential. Good luck on getting the GTO done, you need to post or send me some pics of that project.


We have been lucky to see 65 for a high in weeks. We have had frost already on more days than I care to count!! I still haven't given up yet, but it's not looking good for me to get out. I thought for sure you would have had the MAD mounted up by now...


Dave,

Weather wise I'm in the same boat as you. I'll be a little premature here but.........

"COME ON SPRING 2014"

jdewaard
01-06-2014, 07:22 PM
Gary, that motor is absolutely AWESOME!!! Your fabricating skills are amazing. You really do some great work. If that motor runs half as good as it looks, it should be a winner!!!!:thumbsup:

Liberator*21
01-07-2014, 05:35 AM
Gary, that motor is absolutely AWESOME!!! Your fabricating skills are amazing. You really do some great work. If that motor runs half as good as it looks, it should be a winner!!!!:thumbsup:

Thank you for the kind words. It's still a work in progress and this damm below zero weather has sorta put a damper on things for awhile as I'm sure your aware of as well by you living north of me. Winter sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Updates should be coming before spring on a one-off custom secondary fuel injection system, stay tuned.

Liberator*21
01-15-2014, 08:06 AM
I'll start this update out by saying..............

WINTER SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, now since I've got that out of the way, here's the progress to date. Been doing allot of thinking over the winter months on my shortage of fuel @ WOT and how to compensate for that without spending big $$$$$. Well,
I've come up with an idea of adding a secondary fuel injection system that will spray fuel via a fuel solenoid triggered by a micro switch off the throttle linkage. I've gotten some spray nozzles to try to a close friend (Master Merc Tech) who did the flow testing on his F/I machine and the results are very promising. Fuel sprayed at 45-55 PSI is a very fine mist/vapor that's very easily combustible, more so than the not so fine F/Injectors output. Fuel flow from these nozzles will net me a 13% increase per fuel nozzle x 6 nozzles, 2 nozzles per air horn (3 air horns).

Now your saying.....Dammmm, that's allot of added fuel, and your correct......"BUT", you have to remember that I now have more the 3x the air intake than the OEM downdraft so there's allot of added air that needs to have fuel added. I'm still in the machining stage, finished gun drilling out the spray bar round stock from 1/2" Alum bar stk., made the mounting brackets for both rails, machined the flats for the nozzle "O" Rings to seal and tapped the spray bars for the 6 nozzles, drilled and tapped the spary bar ends for NPT threads for the fittings, now it's onto fixturing it all up for weld. Plumbing is next on the list, fuel fittings have been ordered, should have them next week, so next update will probably be early Feb when I get back to it. Here's a couple of pic's with the spray bars in the welding fixture. I realize there's not much to see as the machined flats are facing downward to square them up to each other, but more to come later. If this works than, the second stage of this project goes into effect, making custom spray nozzles that will fit into the existing F/Injector ports on the MAD intake (injectors are in the reed plate). This will make for a much cleaner install.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20Spray%20Bars/IMG_3803_zps19a051f4.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20Spray%20Bars/IMG_3803_zps19a051f4.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20Spray%20Bars/IMG_3806_zps6e90a6b3.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20Spray%20Bars/IMG_3806_zps6e90a6b3.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20Spray%20Bars/IMG_3805_zpsf8b159f8.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20Spray%20Bars/IMG_3805_zpsf8b159f8.jpg.html)

PanRonnie
01-15-2014, 08:43 AM
i still can,t persuade you to go to an after-market ecu?
and it would be so easy
simply mount a missing tooth wheel

Liberator*21
01-15-2014, 09:08 AM
i still can,t persuade you to go to an after-market ecu?
and it would be so easy
simply mount a missing tooth wheel

LOL...... Ronnie, you are persistent I'll give you that and yes, you are probably absolutely correct, but I like to play and build one off stuff and not really looking for the easy way out. I've already lived with an aftermarket ECU, a Wolf V500 to be exact and I didn't find it an easy thing to use, mostly because I"m not very knowledgeable on those units and really don't want to be tuning all the time as that was the case with the WOLF ECU and a MAD EFI Intake, if I wanted to go boating I always had to pack a laptop...... same setup different motor. Motor runs great until it hits the wall for lack of fuel and if I can address that area only and simply I'm happy.....
Thanks again though..............:D

PanRonnie
01-15-2014, 09:15 AM
If you still have the wolf files i would love to have a look

Liberator*21
01-15-2014, 09:21 AM
Sorry Ronnie, Deleted all that stuff when I sold the motor. Ken (Stitch King) was the former owner and had the setup done by the late Wayne Taylor down in Selma AL. Ken even stopped by the house one day and we went out to tune, it was just never right on any given day, extremely sensitive to temps and humidity and that changes everyday around here. You know it's probably me wanting to be in control rather than a computer that I don't trust...................LMAO !!!!!!

PanRonnie
01-15-2014, 09:32 AM
You just have think of it as a woman you need some time to get to know one another before it, s all fun and games ;)

Liberator*21
01-15-2014, 09:39 AM
Thanks for those words of wisdom.................LMAO !!!!!!!

Trust me, after 30 years of marriage, that I'm well aware that, like baking bread.....you can't put your loaf in the oven till you warm it up first ..........:reddevil::D;)

Liberator*21
02-01-2014, 06:54 AM
Heat wave yesterday 50 degrees so I thought I'd go out do a little work. Current status, fuel spray bar welded and machined, installed fuel solenoid and fuel lines/fittings. Have yet to run the electrics.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20Spray%20Bar%20MAD%20EFI/image_zpsc6fd6558.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20Spray%20Bar%20MAD%20EFI/image_zpsc6fd6558.jpg.html)

tux974
02-01-2014, 07:08 AM
Gary, the MAD scientist always at work! ;):D looks good, nice clean installation!!! :thumbsup:

Liberator*21
02-01-2014, 09:48 AM
Gary, the MAD scientist always at work! ;):D looks good, nice clean installation!!! :thumbsup:


Thanks, it's always a work in progress you know that....lol, just try'n to come up with something original and not just something store bought to hang on....
:iagree: I like the "MAD Scientist".....LMAO, great play on words.....lol....:D

Chaz
02-08-2014, 08:06 PM
I'll start this update out by saying..............

WINTER SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, now since I've got that out of the way, here's the progress to date. Been doing allot of thinking over the winter months on my shortage of fuel @ WOT and how to compensate for that without spending big $$$$$. Well,
I've come up with an idea of adding a secondary fuel injection system that will spray fuel via a fuel solenoid triggered by a micro switch off the throttle linkage. I've gotten some spray nozzles to try to a close friend (Master Merc Tech) who did the flow testing on his F/I machine and the results are very promising. Fuel sprayed at 45-55 PSI is a very fine mist/vapor that's very easily combustible, more so than the not so fine F/Injectors output. Fuel flow from these nozzles will net me a 13% increase per fuel nozzle x 6 nozzles, 2 nozzles per air horn (3 air horns).

Now your saying.....Dammmm, that's allot of added fuel, and your correct......"BUT", you have to remember that I now have more the 3x the air intake than the OEM downdraft so there's allot of added air that needs to have fuel added. I'm still in the machining stage, finished gun drilling out the spray bar round stock from 1/2" Alum bar stk., made the mounting brackets for both rails, machined the flats for the nozzle "O" Rings to seal and tapped the spray bars for the 6 nozzles, drilled and tapped the spary bar ends for NPT threads for the fittings, now it's onto fixturing it all up for weld. Plumbing is next on the list, fuel fittings have been ordered, should have them next week, so next update will probably be early Feb when I get back to it. Here's a couple of pic's with the spray bars in the welding fixture. I realize there's not much to see as the machined flats are facing downward to square them up to each other, but more to come later. If this works than, the second stage of this project goes into effect, making custom spray nozzles that will fit into the existing F/Injector ports on the MAD intake (injectors are in the reed plate). This will make for a much cleaner install.


Brother "G" .. don't shoot the messenger ... :o

First .. what's this "winter" thing you speak of ... :confused: like 85 here tonight .. :D

Just gonna think out loud on a couple point that got my attention .. :eek: :rolleyes:

Since a multi cylinder engine doesn't pull an intake pulse (stroke) at the same time. It can get away with a relatively small air inlet . Especially if it is followed by a rather large plenum volume . In the case of a 3.0L Merc , the volume of the plenum is larger than the overall CI of the engine. The engine is never able to rpm higher than the ability for the air to be replaced in the plenum.

An Independent runner intake system must have a throttle blade area equal to the volume of air needed to run the cyl it's feeding. Most FI manufactures error on the side too big than that of ever being too small. I think the MAD EFI , inlet / throttle blade area / flange (exit) side ratio is one of the most out of perspective that has ever been produced. I say this because I did a big block Chevy with two 2500 cfm throttle bodies .. long story short, very responsive , was wide open at less than half throttle , the second half of pedal was there for .. well nothing.

I think the nose over you feel is the engines inability to move more air. These 3.0L are ported pretty mildly. And with the sleeve itself as the transfer ports short side wall, the charge has a hard time making the bend and entering the cyl as a uniform column.
The exhaust log's volume is another cork in the system . All add up the a pretty compact package, but one that's not really geared to moving high volumes or air.
I'm really surprised that are able to make the power they do, considering how archaic their design.
Maybe it's just mine , but the fuel side of these things are lean at idle , and pig rich on top. As much fuel as the factory puts in them, I really surprised they need a limiter .. ;)

Large volume fuel lines and rails have to push out all the air thru small orifices ( I know @ 55 lbs it happens quick) before establishing a spray pattern. An even bigger thing to remember is that since it is a column with multiple holes, at deactivation, it is going to drain the entire volume from the highest point to the lowest hole. Same principal as lifting soda with a straw and then removing one's finger. My guess is that it's either going to be pulled into the bottom two cyls at best , or worst case, into the pan .

Course, I may be wrong about all of this ... I respect you very much , I just wanted to say what I see .. of at least I think I see .. :thumbsup:

Liberator*21
02-09-2014, 05:30 AM
Morning Chaz,

Ahhh, yes.....I'm sure you've totally forgotten that word "WINTER".....;). Thanks for make'n me feel warmer by telling me how tough you've got it at 85 degrees....LMAO !!!! I'm obviously in envy of your weather vs. ours........... Butler County misses you my friend.......:reddevil::D.

Thanks so much for posting on my project and explaining in detail your thoughts, which I greatly appreciate and don't disagree with at all, but this is just one of those things I've gotta do to prove it to myself. Here's the reason I'm going down this road, last time out in 2013 with the MAD Intake, you'll remember the motor just ran into a wall at 80-85 mph. So I get back home and start to play with the IAT sensor by adding 32K Ohm resistor in the sensor wiring tricking the motor into dumping more fuel as it now receives a signal that the incoming air is 32 degrees. Went back out a couple days later and "BINGO" that helped as did bumping the fuel pressure up to 55-58 PSI. So that's where my theory of "Needs More Fuel" is coming from. I didn't have a chance to do the same thing on the temp sensors as time got away from me and next thing I know I'm plowing the snow off the driveway........ Any changes to the temp sensors output as well would have really "DUMP'D" allot of extra fuel, more so than just the tricking of the IAT sensor, but I never got that far........:mad:.

In addition to all this I tried, I also thought the reverse......what if I'm getting to much air. To test that theory, I made a restrictor plate that bolted to the front of the intake horns, being able to reduce the air intake allowable to just a little bigger than total Sq. In. opening of the stock T/Body..............Yes, that did make a big difference by restricting to amount of CFM allowed to flow to the motor. You also stated the poor design of the MAD intake and your correct, as its nothing more than a funnel design......huge intake going to a very small output port. I did open up the exit ports on the MAD when I first started this project (as they were a very strange shape and size) this too as it wasn't going to do any harm since the OEM reed plate was still being used and it too presented some limitations there on flow in it's stock form.

In summary:
I shot a video clip of the spray nozzles turning on & off, played it back in slow motion to really observe the spray pattern. The results were "GREAT", I'm getting pure mist/vapor under pressure, but once the solenoid shut off the fuel there is the "PEE" stream effect from the lines and spray bars unloading their pressure like you said, that was very clear in the video clip, but please remember that this is only a test to see if in fact the extra fuel being sprayed "DOES or DOESN'T" help. If it does and confirms my bench racing/seat of the pants Dyno thoughts, then the whole design and concept is going to change dramatically. The new design (already laid and drawn out on my workstation) would be comprised of the spray nozzles mounted in the (not used) MAD intake injector holes and 6 custom nozzle holders will be made with a check valve .187" behind the spray nozzle thereby eliminating the current designs "PEE" stream upon shut of of fuel. I've already made one such nozzle holder as a proto type and it works perfect under pressures used. Check valve is comprised of; brass seat, stainless ball & spring design, spring cracking pressure is 40-45 PSI and full re-seat/closure pressure is around 35-38 PSI. So with that being said and bench testing confirming it's a very vaild design that does 100% of what's expected, that project lays in waiting as to the results of the first on water test of what I've got now, no sense making anything different yet that may never get used.........:( (if that were to be the case), hopefully it's not as you know me, I love this stuff and enjoy every minute of all the frustration it causes me.....;):D. Ya gotta remember, I'm retired now and have loads of time to burn and a great equipped shop to let my thoughts run free to make chips fly........:reddevil::smiletest:.

In closing, I totally understand what your saying and explaining as the limitations of what I'm working with and your probably correct in that this maybe a loosing effort, but you know me a little and down inside something always says "I GOTTA DO IT JUST TO SEE IT FOR MYSELF", besides it keeps me busy and my brain thinking and that alone is all good too...........

Take care buddy and enjoy the warmth..........:D:smiletest::thumbsup:

mrcrsr
02-09-2014, 08:44 AM
gary, as far as your experience with the wolf efi system, I got a lot of the old curves from dave, the coolant temp sensor wasn't turned on, and the air temp wasn't calibrated correctly. as far as having to bring the laptop everytime out I could understand that after looking at the programming that was in it. on mine, I had to tinker with it in the beginning until it was dialed in, after that it has been fine(I just put plugs in it after 7 months). I like the ability to be able to make changes to the engine and be able to compensate for it w/ software changes. I've played quite a bit with mercury stuff, and always find that there curves leave a lot to be desired. but in all fairness they don't know what the engine is going to wind up on(a work barge or a lite boat) so they have to factor in those possibilities when building the maps for it. your setup definitely looks interesting, i'll be curious to see how it works. one thing, on your setup it is wet reed, so airflow changes probably cause a pretty big change in the fueling requirements, as the injectors are in the inlet airstream. I'm curious on how mine is going to react being crankcase injected, as if this is truly providing more airflow then I will have to make changes, as my injectors are after the reeds and the only way I'd have to add more fuel is if the intake truly is packing more air into the crankcase. the design of the intake is nice and straight, I can't imagine there not being a gain, but I can see what charly is saying about it having too much butterfly area.

Liberator*21
02-09-2014, 09:06 AM
Morning Charlie,

I respect what you and Chaz both add to this and value you input allot. Your both correct and to convert it into car terms, what I'm doing could possibly be like putting a Holley Dominator on a stock V6 motor.................:eek:.....but I've got to do this to satisfy my thoughts.

As for the Wolf Maps, I didn't generate any new ones as I didn't have enough knowledge to do so in the time I owned that 225 EFI motor that I sold to Dave and what I had was what Ken had generated and or modified. So what ever you found in the maps is maybe what Dave had generated or still the original files from Ken......:confused:

Realizing that it's gonna be awhile before the water softens up around here, I've got lots of time to continue to mull over this project and second guess everything I'm doing.....:rolleyes:. There's nothing that's being done to cause me an issue if in fact I decided to resort back to the OEM Down Draft, so it's all play time right now. I'll post up as progress is made....... be it positive or negative, it'll be here..............;):D

Take Care..........:)

Chaz
02-09-2014, 01:03 PM
This is what I like .. honest straight forward thinking .. :thumbsup:

The Dominator on a V-6 would work , if it were used only as a throttle body .. asking it to pull fuel thru it's circuitry would leave a bit to be desired .. :eek:

I didn't want to get involved in the "adjust-a-jector" thread last week, but I did crunch some numbers.
When I had my injectors flowed, they averaged 483 cc/min or 46 lbs/hr each @ 43.5 psi.
46x6= 276 lbs/hr. If the motor were efficient enough to the industry standard of 1 hp per half a lb of fuel , running the injector at 100% should yield 552 hp . Since 80% duty cycle is more the norm , then @ 43.5 psi would yield 441 hp.
Since a 300x really makes closer to 330 hp in stock trim we would need to face the reality that these things will only make closer to 1 hp per .7 lbs/hr , or 392 / 313 at 100 and 80 % respectively.
Bumping the fuel pressure up to 60 psi shows that if the engine could use that fuel , it had the potential to make 644 / 515 hp @ .5 BSFC 100 / 80 % duty cycle. At a more realistic .7 BSFC they would make 460 / 368 @ 100 / 80 % duty cycle.
Now to me, 256 lbs/hr is a lot of fuel to make 350 hp. I think you guys are on the right track , but the biggest gains will come when you can make more power with less fuel. Today's Pro Stock cars , are as clean as .38 BSFC .. food for thought.

Being one that wont spend $600 dollars to get a fuel curve I know nothing about, I have chosen instead to control the IAT . (for the time being)
I cold start mine @ 50* or aprox 20,000 ohms.
Bump it in and out of gear @ 80* / 9,000 ohms
And have picked up 3 mph on top end and 1/8 tank of gas between here and Ft. Pierce (35 miles) by running at a steady 160* / 1800 ohms at a base of 40 psi.

I'm not a real big fan of the stock downdraft. I think the best set-up would be to have something like a SVS in a V configuration , where each cyls air valve would be in line with it's corresponding rod slot ... then maybe something like an E-tech's three valve , common plenum design ... in any event , I applaud you and Charlie both for steppin outside the box .. :thumbsup:

Dave Strong
02-09-2014, 01:46 PM
This is what I like .. honest straight forward thinking .. :thumbsup:

I applaud you and Charlie both for steppin outside the box .. :thumbsup:

I agree 2 different ways of thinking and look forward to their progress and making things work.

Best of Luck

Dave

Liberator*21
02-09-2014, 05:46 PM
Charlie, Chaz, Dave

Thanks all. For me it's like a Star Trek Movie.........Going where no man has gone before.......LOL ! I look at it like an adventure since I really don't know where I'll end up after the trip........:D

Dave Strong
02-09-2014, 06:13 PM
Charlie, Chaz, Dave

Thanks all. For me it's like a Star Trek Movie.........Going where no man has gone before.......LOL ! I look at it like an adventure since I really don't know where I'll end up after the trip........:D

Just doesn't matter as long as your having fun.

Dave

mrcrsr
02-09-2014, 06:39 PM
Just doesn't matter as long as your having fun.

Dave and don't leave a trail of scored pistons in the process,lol:D I am amazed I haven't blown up anything yet!

R.grover
02-10-2014, 01:46 AM
Don't you love these 3.0l mercs tough as nails. Gary how are ya mate good to see ya posting again.

Liberator*21
02-13-2014, 04:49 AM
and don't leave a trail of scored pistons in the process,lol:D I am amazed I haven't blown up anything yet!

:iagree: Charlie, your way over due.........:reddevil:;):D



Don't you love these 3.0l mercs tough as nails. Gary how are ya mate good to see ya posting again.

Hey Rick, how's the New Z weather, gotta be better than it is here.....lol. Winter here has sorta put a damper on the project, too cold to even think about work'n in the shop with temps below zero for awhile. Warm up on the way next week, upper 40's, hot damm back to work we go.

I did some bench testing of the new fuel spray bar system and it had its pros and cons. The cons have won that battle and forced me to rethink the design. Once the fuel solenoid shuts off the residual pressure in the line caused an "Pee Stream" of fuel as the pressure was bleeding down ( I should have seen that coming), that would not be a good thing when coming off WOT and I'd be seeing a super rich condition for awhile. So it's back to the drawing board and I've designed a spray nozzle this time with an internal check valve that positively shuts off all fuel instantly once the fuel solenoid turns off. Built a proto type for bench testing and it worked like a charm, so gotta build 6 new ones and move allot of stuff around to make room for the 6 new nozzles and the fuel rail that feeds the nozzles, also gotta move the TPS again as well as the IAT sensor as it's currently located in one of the old injector holes. New TPS linkage too as well for the TPS once it's relocated. It's allot of work all over again, but it's gonna be right or not at all. More to come later.

R.grover
02-14-2014, 12:07 AM
Gary hey bud.
Summer here ant that flash been so flat out fixn everyones old **** and lack of maintaince for the pass few years been doing monster hours and its been quite windy. had some good days racing and tuning. did a demo run at a hydroplane and f1 boat weekend, we ran my mates ski boat in MOD VP with a 300x that I helped mod.

We have kilo runs soon so want to run it there. 19.5 foot modded 300x 109mph on gps with a 30et 6700rpm

Liberator*21
02-14-2014, 05:00 AM
Sounds like you've been real busy and have'n some fun too. Those are some great numbers your seeing, best of luck on your kilo runs.

Liberator*21
02-20-2014, 05:04 AM
Current update on progress, had to scrap the original 2 rail spray bar system due to numerous issues that weren't thought of when I started those......:rolleyes:, I should have known better, just didn't think it out enough. Everything shown is in "MOCK UP STAGE".

So here's where I'm at now and there are "NO ISSUES" at all, bench tested and works beautiful. Still have to do some additional work as the TPS was moved back to its original OEM location, need to mod the VST support plate for throttle arm clearance, fab up new linkage to drive TPS off top throttle blade shaft at my current 2:1 ratio of TPS advance and relocate the fuel solenoid micro switches. New design is comprised of 6 custom made secondary injector nozzles and a new fuel rail for the 6 nozzles. This should fix any lack of fuel issues at WOT.....:reddevil:. All that's needed now is some warmer weather as it'll be ready when the weather breaks to get out and test............:D


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140219_192510_zpsbd0bb087.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140219_192510_zpsbd0bb087.jpg.html)



http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140219_111723_zps70e52c07.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140219_111723_zps70e52c07.jpg.html)

Chaz
02-21-2014, 12:01 AM
Gary ,
Most enguu-neerz types I know, that don't like the facts ... just change the questions around till they align with their theory ... ;) :D

The check valves ... muy bueno :thumbsup:

Liberator*21
02-21-2014, 03:40 AM
Thanks Chaz....., so true on the Enugu-neerz.......LMAO !!!!!!!!!

tux974
02-21-2014, 06:51 AM
Nice clean installation, looks OEM..:thumbsup:

Liberator*21
03-02-2014, 06:50 AM
Nice clean installation, looks OEM..:thumbsup:

Thanks Tony, but I've hit another bump in the road. Thought I'd bench test the setup at full EFI pump pressure and flow in my test tank before the real install......well, it failed after running for 5 minutes. Each nozzle one by one slowly quit flowing. There's some sort of filter material in the spray nozzles that's breaking down when the fuel runs through it, i.e. Self plugging and No Spray !!!!!!!!!

Rather than keep trying to reinvent the wheel, I'm going to just run another set of injectors, modified to perform like my original nozzle design was supposed to. Injectors are on there way to be flowed/adjusted/calibrated to flow the same cc/min as my nozzles did. Once there back I'll update further progress as I still need to put a wire harness together with the proper electrical plugs for the injectors and tie it into my triggering system.

To be continued......:reddevil::D;)

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 05:34 AM
Seems there's an issue on the website, can't seem to post updates here.....................??????

This short post seems to post up ok, but can't post up pics and additional info.

PanRonnie
03-21-2014, 05:43 AM
seems to work?
still using windows xp!

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 05:47 AM
Hey Ronnie,

She don't work for me, all I get is:

Internal Server ErrorThe server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@screamandfly.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

tux974
03-21-2014, 06:06 AM
Gary, they want to make sure your progress stays hush,hush...;):D Try to restart your system!

PanRonnie
03-21-2014, 06:08 AM
Try restarting your pc!

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 06:20 AM
Gary, they want to make sure your progress stays hush,hush...;):D

Yeah right.......:)


Try restarting your pc!

Thanks guy's but did that 3 times to no avail................ It maybe something embedded in my posting. I'll try it again later this morning and reformat it.

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 06:54 AM
No matter how I configure the post it won't take it, now I'm getting another error message:

The following errors occurred with your submission

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

Too short my ass......, it's got over 100 words in it. Sump'n definitely screwed up or I'm on lock down for being a bad boy in earlier complaint threads I started..............:rolleyes:

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 07:03 AM
Ok, it'll take it one photo at a time, so here goes...........


Latest update, plan "B" is installed and ready to go


Here's where I'm currently at. Got my new Honda Keihin FWD injectors back all clean and tuned/flowed. Installed them and finished the wiring harness for the FWD fuel rail. Here's some pics that'll have to do till this crappy weather is over.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143801_zpsf7361a53.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143801_zpsf7361a53.jpg.html)

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 07:05 AM
MAD Intake fuel rail in the foreground, 300x fuel rail in the background.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143728_zps1be8b4b0.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143728_zps1be8b4b0.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143720_zps22a6bb9e.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143720_zps22a6bb9e.jpg.html)

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 07:06 AM
Linkage side with all new linkage driving the TPS from the top throttle shaft
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143739_zps200699e5.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143739_zps200699e5.jpg.html)
The two fuel rails and plumbing nightmare, had to move the Cannon Plug aft for clearance

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 07:06 AM
Wiring of relay, micro switch and voltage reducer
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143712_zps196b8ff1.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143712_zps196b8ff1.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143706_zps038e83e9.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_143706_zps038e83e9.jpg.html)

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 07:07 AM
FWD fuel rail wire harness
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_140211_zpsa8ca6120.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_140211_zpsa8ca6120.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_140203_zps064d5ba5.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_140203_zps064d5ba5.jpg.html)

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 07:09 AM
Better view of both sets of injectors w/fwd fuel rail off


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_135440_zpsa3c2d63d.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_135440_zpsa3c2d63d.jpg.html)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_135433_zps3db59b78.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20System/2014%20Fuel%20System/20140320_135433_zps3db59b78.jpg.html)




Ready to hit the water (if it ever warms up, quits snowing, stops raining etc, etc, etc)......

Dave Strong
03-21-2014, 10:28 AM
Looks good, try updating you java for the error messages.

Dave

Liberator*21
03-21-2014, 10:33 AM
Looks good, try updating you java for the error messages.

Dave

Thanks Dave, I'll get it a try.

whipper
03-21-2014, 02:49 PM
WOW Gary what a MOTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unreal work you did its an AWESOME BEAST!! I cant wait to see your results and hear your motor run! Just darn right impressive what you've created.

Liberator*21
03-24-2014, 04:12 AM
Thanks Whipper, it's pretty much a "MERC-EN-STEIN" motor to say the least, but like I always say, it's about the fun of it and doing something totally different that makes it enjoyable. Now if I could only get some decent weather for a little test and tune and a little video with a good sound track..........:D.

R.grover
04-04-2014, 01:45 AM
Gary how r you goin mate?
warm enough over there to run yet?
Winter just around the corner here

Liberator*21
04-09-2014, 03:16 AM
Gary how r you goin mate?
warm enough over there to run yet?
Winter just around the corner here

Hey Rick,

Just got back home, we were out of the country for a 2 week vacation. It was cold when we left and it's still cold now......:(. Had big storms here while we were gone, we noticed all the rivers are way over there banks as we drove back from the airport, so it's still gonna be awhile before I get out. Had to start over on the voltage adapter for the injectors, as it wasn't handling the amps needed, should have that resolved by next week with a new unit.

Hopefully your up coming winter is easier than ours has been....... :D

R.grover
04-20-2014, 04:39 PM
Winters coming all right. we got told to get ready 4 a big storm a few weeks back and had most of our boat racing canned waitn for it but nothing happen then just the other day we got told it was goin to finaly rain some and it let lose and did some big damage.
Were still flat out here in the marina atm so not much time for my own projects.
Hows your coming along atm all ready for the water yet?

Liberator*21
04-20-2014, 05:29 PM
Rick,

We just got back from a 2 week vacation in the Caribbean and now Easter weekend. Been busy as hell. Weather is warming up here, just need for the rivers to clean up from all the floating cap that washed in while we were gone, one big storm while we were gone with flooding rains. Couple more weeks and should be get'n it wet. It's been crazy weather this spring here too. Hope all is well with you.

R.grover
05-13-2014, 02:29 AM
That weather sorted it self out over there yet mate to run that motor yet?
Winters on its way here getndark early and work getn quite.

Liberator*21
05-13-2014, 03:30 AM
Rick,

It's been a very ugly start to a summer this year, storms, high winds, lots of rain and flooding :mad:. Not the ideal conditions to go test a boat in. It seems everyday that's either a weather issue to deal with. Hang in there as it's gotta get nicer soon............. I'm die'n to get out....

Dave Strong
05-13-2014, 09:49 AM
Rick,

It's been a very ugly start to a summer this year, storms, high winds, lots of rain and flooding :mad:. Not the ideal conditions to go test a boat in. It seems everyday that's either a weather issue to deal with. Hang in there as it's gotta get nicer soon............. I'm die'n to get out....

I hear you longest winter ever here. waiting for the lake to get some water, real low right now. hoping it all doesn't come at one time and fill the lake full of junk.

Dave

Liberator*21
05-13-2014, 08:01 PM
Dave,
It just doesn't seem to stop.....tonight same thing, winds 60-70 MPH, quarter sized hail, and flood warnings.:(

R.grover
05-14-2014, 02:20 AM
I hope we don't get what you are getn then.
Hope its not costn you to much

Euroski
05-14-2014, 06:38 PM
Same weather over here in Western PA. Haven't even put gas in yet!

R.grover
06-20-2014, 03:20 PM
Gary any updates on your project yet? We are in winter and it sux here at the moment not nice to go boating but not cold enough to go to the snow. lots of flooding to.
My motor is in bits again looking for some more out it.
Also pricing up to build a new boat so I better get my but in to gear to have some thing for summer.

Liberator*21
06-20-2014, 03:31 PM
Rick, I'm in the same boat as Euroski, haven't even put gas in her yet. This is the worst weather I can recall for sometime.

Dave Strong
06-20-2014, 03:36 PM
Rick, I'm in the same boat as Euroski, haven't even put gas in her yet. This is the worst weather I can recall for sometime.

Ya go figure back working starts raining about 4:30 and my days off. :mad: Had the boat out once this year. Worked to fast today got the rest of day off and its raining now. :rolleyes::(

Dave :nonod:

R.grover
06-20-2014, 03:59 PM
Gary and Dave that really sux I don't no if we can handle that if that's what we will be getn for our summer.

Dave Strong
06-20-2014, 04:15 PM
It will come, was hoping to get some good boating in before school gets out. Living in a tourist town it tends to get nuts here when school gets out. Small lake and way to many idiot's. Always have the fall to have fun, tend to stay away from the lake in the peak tourist season. It can be scary at times, need to make the boaters licence harder to get they seem to give it anyone these days.

Dave

R.grover
06-20-2014, 04:21 PM
Dave your lucky then here we don't need a licence to drive a boat im in the biggest city in our country and in summer it gets crazy I work at a marina. we r lucky tho as if I want salt water or surf or even a lake to go boating its max 30mins to get to all. but we have more boats per head than any were else in the world

Dave Strong
06-20-2014, 06:48 PM
Not sure if were lucky or not. The lake here is the head waters of the Columbia River, 8 miles long and 1.5 miles wide at the widest point. Two years ago the Government did a boat count on the July long weekend, over 280 boats in the middle of the day.

Dave

Liberator*21
06-25-2014, 05:19 AM
Ok, based on my frustration on only getting 85 MPH last year, changes were due/made/tested....................

I finally hit the water today to test out the 12 injector theory. Started out with a warm motor, 140 degrees, air temp 93 degrees, humidity 67%, winds gusting 15-20 mph and running in a foot to foot and a half chop do to the winds. Motor launched as great as it did before the additional 6 injector addition. I did see that the motor didn't like to have all 12 injectors on in the 6000 to 6500 RPM range as the motor slowed down a little at the EGT's showed the additional fuel, I feathered the throttle to keep the extra injectors off till 6500, that was harder than I thought it would be bouncing around in the seat, best speed 88 mph/gps.

Pulled the fuse out of the injector trigger switch that turns the extra injectors on via WOT micro switch and plugged in a remote push button switch that was in my lap. This push button switch would turn on the extra injectors when I pushed the button down and held it and releasing it turned them off.

Fired it up again running on the 6 (300x) injectors in the reed plate, ran it full throttle till tach hit 6500 RPM pressed the button turning on the 6 extra injectors and it started to pull harder. Best I could do in the rough chop and winds was......100-101.......... pardon the photo blur I had my hands full.....http://www.bassboatcentral.com/smileys/Laugh.gif


300443 Finally pick'n it up a notch.............:D


So all in all it was a great learning experience. It still needs some extra tuning to home in on the proper fuel curve. Better weather would have gotten me maybe another 5 mph, so I'm real happy at this point. I've decided to add a another adjustable EFI fuel pressure reg to control the pressure on the additional forward fuel rail injectors as currently there all seeing 45-50 psi. The added pressure reg would thereby allow controlling the fuel curve a little tighter, leaving the 300x fuel rail at 45-50 and adjusting the secondary fuel rail where ever its happier. I'll post up again in a couple of weeks on the progress of that mod.

So bottom line: My theory was proven out and it works :):):)

Dave Strong
06-25-2014, 08:33 AM
Right on your moving in the right direction.

Dave

mrcrsr
06-25-2014, 11:31 AM
Nice gary!

R.grover
06-25-2014, 04:26 PM
Gary great to see all your effort has shown you some gains (big gains) they are to. do you run pyros?

mrcrsr
06-25-2014, 04:30 PM
Is the boat any faster gary?

Liberator*21
06-26-2014, 03:46 AM
Gary great to see all your effort has shown you some gains (big gains) they are to. do you run pyros?

Yeah Rick, I do run dual EGT's




Is the boat any faster gary?

Hell yeah Charlie, last year it stone walled at 85 mph, and it felt like there was more but just not enough fuel to cover the ratio of incoming air. That's the reason for the mod (extra injectors) and other changes to add additional fuel at the top end.