Trying to find Old Outboard Records

[Tom Smyth]

Where or who would i contact to find a list for old outboard motor speed records? Interested in looking at the progression of these speeds and the years they were made.

I have heard NOA a lot, but really dont understand what that is except maybe the sanctioning organization before APBA?

Thanks

TOm

[olboatman]

If I am correct I remember seeing a list of class winners over the years on the APBA site. That should help you out if you they have the kilo records with the speeds. I don't know when they started running kilos? Could be worth checking out. mark 75 or instigator may be able to help here on S+F. Gary

[Mark75H]

There is no progression over the years in current APBA documentation, only the current record holder.

To see the progression you have to have access to old record books.

NOA was a wildcat organization outside APBA from the early 50's to the early 70's - NOA records were only NOA records, where APBA as a member of UIM could certify world records. APBA started around 1900 and took in outboards in the 20's, posting world records thru the YAA to the UIM before becoming the UIM affiliate in the '50's

What class are you interested in Tom? I have the progression of the maximum outboard speed record from the 20's to present

[Tom Smyth]

I would like to know who , when and where they bumped the twin engine record up to 100 and over it. Not sure what class that would be..

Thanks

[Mark75H]

Several possible classes, T, U, X I'll have to spend some time looking, but I suspect it was with a Switzer Wing (maybe Jan Schoonover). Twin engine records were not something the manufacturers were particularly interested it, so it wasn't so dramatically celebrated when it happened

[Tom Smyth]

would appreciate any time and info you could spare. Thanks

[MN4V]

This is a start. This is from my 1974 APBA Rule Book.
Mark N
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/1974APBARuleBook.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/MN392/media/1974APBARuleBook.jpg.html)

[T2x]

According to the lettering on the hull.....it was Miss Diablo with Ken Kitson driving....Later he and Schoonover (Flying Dutchman Wing) traded the record back and forth..... Unofficially Wood Switzer wings were running well over 100 for years before Ken's Official timed attempt.

I remember both boats but without the actual APBA record books, I can't say for sure. The APBA book shown above was from 6 years later...

[2us70]

APBA used to have some of these records on the web site but they are gone now. The only way to compile this info is just what you have done here.If someone or a couple of someones kept rule books you could scan them. I unfortunately only kept a couple of them including 1974 but I don't know where they are at the moment. Who knew anybody would care after 40 years?
This is a start. This is from my 1974 APBA Rule Book.
Mark N
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/1974APBARuleBook.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/MN392/media/1974APBARuleBook.jpg.html)

[Mark75H]

Kitson's 1969 record would be the APBA record for X (the 1% or 2% margin would not have allowed a record between 100 and 100.738), but there could be earlier records in T and UU (note that the 1974 speeds in those classes are higher than Kitson's X record). I think Schoonover's record was 102+ in NOA records, but I can't find the reference for the year ... its from the issue with him smiling on the cover.


(Pretty sure R and S are single engine classes; the APBA "alky" UIM single engine X class record went over 100 in 1956 in Italy)

[milkdud]

Is there a cheat sheet to those outboad classes? Displacement and hull type? I am lost when it comes to these classes.

The only one I know is SJ.

Conrad

[GENE LANHAM]

I would like to know who , when and where they bumped the twin engine record up to 100 and over it. Not sure what class that would be..

Thanks

I think I stole this from Rick---NOA?---1966 or 1967?

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ztlrh1.jpg

[Greg G]

Not sure if this is the sort of thing you are looking for but 101mph in an 11' boat is pretty amazing for 1971 ...........

[T2x]

So Schoonover was first in the NOA and Kitson was first in APBA I guess.....

[GENE LANHAM]

Probably stole this from Rick, also---but it is dated---

http://i41.tinypic.com/152dlzp.jpg

[Tom Smyth]

I think I stole this from Rick---NOA?---1966 or 1967?

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ztlrh1.jpg
Any idea where this was published?

[Mark75H]

Is there a cheat sheet to those outboad classes? Displacement and hull type? I am lost when it comes to these classes.

The only one I know is SJ.

Conrad

Nope, takes a bit of digging to decode it all

The quick is Pete DeLactner's rundown:
R= restricted (I think it was 80ci, but racing lower units were allowed if they could reverse ... Merc 800 with Speedmaster or Sportmaster and McCulloch Customs)
S=single (I think these were limited to 99ci w/racing lower units)
T=twin
U=unlimited (no size limit)
UU=unlimited twin
X= experimental (basically factory prototypes allowed)

The "F" classes were "family" pleasure boat hulls, the "S" classes were hydros & tunnels (Sport) with full gearshift units

Originally C was 30ci, D was 40, E was 50, F was 60, G was 70, H was 80 and I was 90 ... but some of the classes got bumped to allow more popular motors with similar performance

[olboatman]

Great stuff guys! Keep it commin. Thanks Gary

[T2x]

Nope, takes a bit of digging to decode it all

The quick is Pete DeLactner's rundown:
R= restricted (I think it was 80ci, but racing lower units were allowed if they could reverse ... Merc 800 with Speedmaster or Sportmaster and McCulloch Customs)
S=single (I think these were limited to 99ci w/racing lower units)
T=twin
U=unlimited (no size limit)
UU=unlimited twin
X= experimental (basically factory prototypes allowed)

The "F" classes were "family" pleasure boat hulls, the "S" classes were hydros & tunnels (Sport) with full gearshift units

Originally C was 30ci, D was 40, E was 50, F was 60, G was 70, H was 80 and I was 90 ... but some of the classes got bumped to allow more popular motors with similar performance

Sam:

U and UU were SSM classes with the restriction that the motors had to be available from the manufacturers as raced ( U was replaced by SST after the twin engine classes were discontinued). The S and T classes allowed unlimited modifications to ( racing gasoline only) racing motors (with SSM's or equivalents) and those were the factory prototype classes before the, OE, ON (under 99 cu. in.) and OZ (v6) classes arrived from UIM racing. X was the triple engine class... These are my best recollections of the APBA classes. NOA was obvioulsy different based on the single "U" designations shown on the wings above.

[Tom Smyth]

So did Schoonover set the record in U or T class back then?

[Mark75H]

So did Schoonover set the record in U or T class back then?

It was a NOA class, NOA was slightly different

[Mark75H]

Sam:

U and UU were SSM classes with the restriction that the motors had to be available from the manufacturers as raced ( U was replaced by SST after the twin engine classes were discontinued). The S and T classes allowed unlimited modifications to ( racing gasoline only) racing motors (with SSM's or equivalents) and those were the factory prototype classes before the, OE, ON (under 99 cu. in.) and OZ (v6) classes arrived from UIM racing. X was the triple engine class... These are my best recollections of the APBA classes. NOA was obvioulsy different based on the single "U" designations shown on the wings above.

I thought there was some detail like that, but I've never been able to put my hands on one of the old APBA OPC rule books ... one of the hardest pieces of literature to come by.

Thanks for clarifying and filling in the blanks!

[milkdud]

Thanks for the info guys.
C

[Powercat]

I am not sure of the year of these pages, ( note reference should be prior to 1971 ) but this shows some of the
class designations for APBA and NOA and UIM .

[Mark75H]

Oh, yes that is very good. I think OMC had that prepared for fans

[mark benson]

R Class was 90 cubic inches max single & S Class was 100 cubic inches max single!
Kitson's 1969 record would be the APBA record for X (the 1% or 2% margin would not have allowed a record between 100 and 100.738), but there could be earlier records in T and UU (note that the 1974 speeds in those classes are higher than Kitson's X record). I think Schoonover's record was 102+ in NOA records, but I can't find the reference for the year ... its from the issue with him smiling on the cover.


(Pretty sure R and S are single engine classes; the APBA "alky" UIM single engine X class record went over 100 in 1956 in Italy)

[mark benson]

From what I remember-
R Class 90 cubic inches max unrestricted (altered 1000 BP's & OMC's)
UI Class 90 cubic inches max unaltered (1000 BP's & OMC's)
U Class 100 cubic inches max unaltered (1250 BP's Stranglers & Stingers)
S Class 100 cubic inches max unrestricted (1250 super BP Stacker eg
UU Class Dual 100 Cubic inches unaltered
T Class Dual 100 cubic inches max unrestricted
X Class Triple 100 cubic inches unrestricted
Nope, takes a bit of digging to decode it all

The quick is Pete DeLactner's rundown:
R= restricted (I think it was 80ci, but racing lower units were allowed if they could reverse ... Merc 800 with Speedmaster or Sportmaster and McCulloch Customs)
S=single (I think these were limited to 99ci w/racing lower units)
T=twin
U=unlimited (no size limit)
UU=unlimited twin
X= experimental (basically factory prototypes allowed)

The "F" classes were "family" pleasure boat hulls, the "S" classes were hydros & tunnels (Sport) with full gearshift units

Originally C was 30ci, D was 40, E was 50, F was 60, G was 70, H was 80 and I was 90 ... but some of the classes got bumped to allow more popular motors with similar performance

[MN4V]

I think R class had a max of around 70 or 80 ci. The Merc 85 hp four cyl. with pipes and any racing lower unit. No weight limit. If I remember right Billy Seebold won a few races in R class.
Mark N.

[Mark75H]

I think R class had a max of around 70 or 80 ci. The Merc 85 hp four cyl. with pipes and any racing lower unit. No weight limit. If I remember right Billy Seebold won a few races in R class.
Mark N.

Pretty sure the 80 ci is right, but I thought the motor had to reverse, as in 76ci DR's?? I also heard that the McCulloch "Custom" was competitive in R in some regions ... 63 ci, 1.1:1 shift gearbox

[Mark75H]

R Class was 90 cubic inches max single & S Class was 100 cubic inches max single!

Is that from memory or do you have some documentation?

Maybe it changed from 80 to 90 at some point

[willabee]

So did Schoonover set the record in U or T class back then?

Schoonover set all his records in NOA, that would make them U class ..... A few of us messed with this a while back and came up with the following:

1967 - Schoonover ... Merc 1100 stackers ... NOA ... U ... 102
1968 - Kitson ... Merc 1250 SSM ... APBA ... T... 100
1968 - Threlkeld ... Johnson 115's ... NOA ... U ... 104
1968 - Schoonover ... Merc 1250 stackers ... NOA ... U ... 106
1968 - Threlkeld ... blows over trying to break the U class NOA mark of 106
1968 - Kitson ... Merc 1250 stackers ... NOA ... U ... 113
1968 - Schoonover ... blows over trying to break the U class NOA mark of 113
1968 - Kitson ... triple 1250 stackers - NOA ... X ... 109 (20' Wing)

Kitson thens looks around at all these guys gimping as they walk through the pits and says "nuff of that stuff!" :D

Note: Tinker Collinge ran Molly Ballou's twin Merc 1250 stacker Jones hyro to an APBA T record of 116 in 1971.

[mark benson]

Sam- I was going from memory, but I think we are all right! R Class might have been lesser cubic inches, but due to lack of interest in racing 800 Mercurys & McColloughs (dinosaurs), APBA changed the cubic inches to accommodate all the 90 cubic inch Johnsons & Evinrudes, lying around & 1000 BP's!
Is that from memory or do you have some documentation?

Maybe it changed from 80 to 90 at some point

[mark benson]

In this 1974 APBA Kilo Record book, you can see the UI Record was 90+ MPH & the R Class Record was 100+ MPH! There is no way a 800 Mercury or any McCollough, could touch that kind of speed, so I rest my case that R Class was 90 cubic inches max unrestricted! IMHO!
This is a start. This is from my 1974 APBA Rule Book.
Mark N
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/1974APBARuleBook.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/MN392/media/1974APBARuleBook.jpg.html)

[mark benson]

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[MN4V]

Just thought I would look in the class rules of the 1974 APBA Rule Book. This is what I found for R class. Billy Seebold set a 5 mile comp record in the class in a hydro. Also has the Little Red Twister Craft record in S class.
Mark N
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/1974APBARuleBook2.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/MN392/media/1974APBARuleBook2.jpg.html)
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/MN392/1974APBARuleBook3.jpg (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/MN392/media/1974APBARuleBook3.jpg.html)

[Tom Smyth]

I think it is interesting that there is such a small difference between the speed schoonover hit using 1100 stackers and the 1250 bP's. i guess the hp wasnt that far part?

[Mark75H]

Its not that the HP difference isn't much, its that the faster you go, the more HP you need to make the same speed increase.

With the same boat: 50 hp might go 30 mph, 100 hp - 45 mph, 150 hp - 55 mph, 200 hp - 60 mph, 250 hp - 62 mph


My guess on the 1100 stackers is in the 125~ hp range. Merc claimed 155~ hp for the original 1250BP's ... Kenny may have had motors a little better than that: 60+ hp increase for the pair.

[Mark75H]

Sam- I was going from memory, but I think we are all right! R Class might have been lesser cubic inches, but due to lack of interest in racing 800 Mercurys & McColloughs (dinosaurs), APBA changed the cubic inches to accommodate all the 90 cubic inch Johnsons & Evinrudes, lying around & 1000 BP's!

In this 1974 APBA Kilo Record book, you can see the UI Record was 90+ MPH & the R Class Record was 100+ MPH! There is no way a 800 Mercury or any McCollough, could touch that kind of speed, so I rest my case that R Class was 90 cubic inches max unrestricted! IMHO!

90+ was easy for those motors. The UIM X class record was already 115+ with a smaller Merc ... McCulloch was trying to beat that with the 630 but only got around the 100 mph range.

Terry "The Duck" Klemm