Anybody sharp on the old Mercs Mark 58? Need some help timming the mag.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I have been painstakenly restoring this old Mark 58 engine. Every nut and bold has been cleaned primered and painted. Boy it has really kicked my ass. This is the first one I have restored so its all new to me. I need some help setting up the timming for initial base timming and advanced timming. I have already restored the mag and found some NOS points and condenser and installed all new plug wires. The mag is all done. I am now in the process of finally putting the engine back together. I repair marine engines for a living but setting up these old mags is chinese to me. The flywheel doesnt have the timming marks on it like other engines I just use a timming and crank proceedure on those and its always done me good. But on this one no cigar. I do have the Merc dial indicator tool to set timming. I have only screwed with one other mag in my life on an old out board similar to this one but this is my first full resto. I have an old Yellow Jacket and its got all the original hard way and parts on it. This engine has very very low hours on it. So can anybody help me with this? I am rebuilding the carbs also I need to sync the carbs with the mag also. Thanks in advance, :thumbsup:

[staylor]

...right next to the exploded parts list for my KG4 in my files. Now I can tell the wife, kids, and grandkids to quit carping about cleaning out my old files- 'cause people still want that old "stuff".

I have a section in this manual on old Merc In-Line 4s and 6s from the MK55 up. I has decent link/synch/mag set-up data with some pictures. I made a pdf, and it's reads pretty well- except for a couple of coffee stains. File size is 19 megs, which I probably can reduce some (albeit with less clear text and photos) if your email can't accept a file of that size. Send me a private email with your regular email address so I can send a reply with the manual as an attachment.

Since I've got the pdf on my hard drive, anyone else out there who would like a copy can just send me an email request.
Doug

[2us70]

Those old mag motors were timed by piston position before tdc. The best way to time one is with a timing plug such as a "MicroTime" plug. You can make one from an old spark plug body and a cheap micrometer. Once the piston is the correct distance in .000in from tdc you set the mag to break the points at that point. An ohm meter with a buzzer or a test light will indicate when points open.

[Capt.Insane-o]

The flywheel should have some grooves marked in it. Usually there are quite a few of the old merc sevice manuals floating on e bay and they are very helpful to have. I have a bunch of these motors and they are fun to tinker with.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Those old mag motors were timed by piston position before tdc. The best way to time one is with a timing plug such as a "MicroTime" plug. You can make one from an old spark plug body and a cheap micrometer. Once the piston is the correct distance in .000in from tdc you set the mag to break the points at that point. An ohm meter with a buzzer or a test light will indicate when points open.

I do have one of those Merc dial indicators kits for setting timming. But I only use it about once every 5 or six years. But its complete with all the adapters.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I do have one of those Merc dial indicators kits for setting timming. But I only use it about once every 5 or six years. But its complete with all the adapters.

That is why I am not that knowledgable on setting these up I hardly every use this kit.

[donmac]

http://www.maxrules.com/timingindex.html

[BAD ASS BOAT]

The flywheel should have some grooves marked in it. Usually there are quite a few of the old merc sevice manuals floating on e bay and they are very helpful to have. I have a bunch of these motors and they are fun to tinker with.

I should of added on this post that I do have a Merc Factory shop manual for it. Just not that sure on this subject is all.

[velox]

Ask LilAbner (Butch Stokes) He probably knows as much as anybody about these motors. He is also probably the youngest as he was only about 19 years old when he worked on them. He also has a great memory for this kind of stuff and probably even has the tools. I seem to remember the timing was about .400 inch BTDC. But don't take that to the bank until you get the real numbers from Butch.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Ask LilAbner (Butch Stokes) He probably knows as much as anybody about these motors. He is also probably the youngest as he was only about 19 years old when he worked on them. He also has a great memory for this kind of stuff and probably even has the tools. I seem to remember the timing was about .400 inch BTDC. But don't take that to the bank until you get the real numbers from Butch.

Ok I don't know Butch Stokes don't know how to contact him. But thanks for the reply.

[albypine]

Ok I don't know Butch Stokes don't know how to contact him. But thanks for the reply.
lilabner
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[Capt.Insane-o]

I should of added on this post that I do have a Merc Factory shop manual for it. Just not that sure on this subject is all.


I have a couple powerheads off, I'll post some pics of how the timing marks like up. If you already have a dial indicator it's easy enough to put a couple dots on the flywheel and some other point with a marker to set max timing then wipe them away.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I have a couple powerheads off, I'll post some pics of how the timing marks like up. If you already have a dial indicator it's easy enough to put a couple dots on the flywheel and some other point with a marker to set max timing then wipe them away.

Thats a good idea not to worried about wiping them away nobody will ever see it 0nce the cowling is on.

[2us70]

On a race 50 I used to try to set the points as square to each other as possible and give it all the dwell I could manage. This required opening up the mag more often for readjustment but I thought it was worth it. I don't remember how much timing worked the best but I think Charlie's estimate of .400 is a bit too much. For a resto motor the factory number will be just fine especially on a heavier boat than the race boats we ran them on. When you set up your mag before you put back on the cover and cap hold a screwdriver against the case and the tip near the high tension clip and just spin the shaft with your fingers. You should get a nice fat spark to the screwdriver if you have it right.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

On a race 50 I used to try to set the points as square to each other as possible and give it all the dwell I could manage. This required opening up the mag more often for readjustment but I thought it was worth it. I don't remember how much timing worked the best but I think Charlie's estimate of .400 is a bit too much. For a resto motor the factory number will be just fine especially on a heavier boat than the race boats we ran them on. When you set up your mag before you put back on the cover and cap hold a screwdriver against the case and the tip near the high tension clip and just spin the shaft with your fingers. You should get a nice fat spark to the screwdriver if you have it right.

That is a very good idea. What I was going to do is carefully set the dist in a vice and put the end of the shaft into a chuck of a drill then put a my spark analizer on the secondary and spin it over and check spark on each plug wire. I did that one time when a customer brought me this old motor. That is the only other time I have messed with a mag on an outboard. I sure have learned alot on this old motor though. I see some of these motors restored for 5k plus . You know what the guy earned every penny! I can see now why they are so expensive. I spent a full day polishing the bright work just on the uppper and lower cowling before prepping them for paint. These guys have my utmost respect.


My other question is when I put in the Merc NOS points and condenser I notice the spring tension was really tight on the points. I know the manual said to check it with a tension gauge but I don't have one. Is the tension supposed to be tight on these? I have put in a lot of points and this one seems very tight. But again this is Amercian made NOS set with points and condenser and a new wich. So I just figured that is the way the factory set it up.

[2us70]

You must have been looking over my shoulder back in the day. That is exactly how I set up my mags back then. Tighter is better just watch for wear on the rubbing block of the point assembly.
PS. Thunderbolt CDI ignition made all of this obsolete. The CDI motors were always faster than the best magneto ignition motors.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

You must have been looking over my shoulder back in the day. That is exactly how I set up my mags back then. Tighter is better just watch for wear on the rubbing block of the point assembly.
PS. Thunderbolt CDI ignition made all of this obsolete. The CDI motors were always faster than the best magneto ignition motors.

That is what I am worried about is the block on the points deterorating. I put fresh cam grease on the whick and made sure it was lubed good. Yeah the CDI is good but this is all old school. And from what I am seeing on history these old motors where pretty fast in there day. So I guess Merc didnt do so bad.:}

[2us70]

One more thing. On the last couple of 50s I ran I had a problem with timing belt slack. This made accurate timing impossible. Try to find the tightest fitting timing belt you can get. If you still have some slack just set the points to break in the middle of the slack arc. This should be good enough with factory timing. There is another solution but you don't want to be grinding and filing on a classic like that.

[Capt.Insane-o]

My camera is all wonky, which goes by the rule around here if it's not broke it's out of gas. :/ The two Mark 58's I use I upgraded to the lightning energizer style and it works great.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I already bought a new timming belt. What is Lightning energizer style? Is this somthing different than the mag I have?

[Mark75H]

Yes, the Lightning energizer is a self energizing CDI (without points), you have a mag ... still self energizing, but with points tripping the spark.

You will no longer find defective points that need to have the tension checked as described in the manual.

The spark should be tested with the cap and rotor off before installing them. If you don't get the spark from hell between the coil tab and some extension to the mag body by spinning the shaft by hand, the points aren't set right. Should easily throw a scary spark 1/2" ... probably 5/8", but not 3/4"

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Yes, the Lightning energizer is a self energizing CDI (without points), you have a mag ... still self energizing, but with points tripping the spark.

You will no longer find defective points that need to have the tension checked as described in the manual.

The spark should be tested with the cap and rotor off before installing them. If you don't get the spark from hell between the coil tab and some extension to the mag body by spinning the shaft by hand, the points aren't set right. Should easily throw a scary spark 1/2" ... probably 5/8", but not 3/4"

I don't have a smart phone to scan this. I don't understand coil tab and some extension?????

[Capt.Insane-o]

Sam is right, I made a mag set up tool out of an old electric motor, and magneto adapter and a variac. At 3000 rpm with a good coil it will throw a saprk like you would not believe. The LE system came on the 68 or 67 to 75 model 50's I believe. Way less tempermental, but you now your cool when you can get a mag motor to run like a swiss watch. ;)

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Sam is right, I made a mag set up tool out of an old electric motor, and magneto adapter and a variac. At 3000 rpm with a good coil it will throw a saprk like you would not believe. The LE system came on the 68 or 67 to 75 model 50's I believe. Way less tempermental, but you now your cool when you can get a mag motor to run like a swiss watch. ;)


This old Yellow Jacket has not been touched I mean its got all the old school **** on it down to the original 1958 shift and throttle cables. I will just stick with old school on every thing. I love a good challenge.

[2us70]

I don't have a smart phone to scan this. I don't understand coil tab and some extension?????
The actual name for the "coil tab" is high tension clip. It is that bent copper strip that screws to the top of the coil and goes to the center of the distributer cap. You hold a screwdriver against the metal mag body and lean the tip toward the high tension clip. Then just flip the mag shaft with your fingers and see how big an arc you get. PS make sure to hold the screwdriver by its handle

[BAD ASS BOAT]

The actual name for the "coil tab" is high tension clip. It is that bent copper strip that screws to the top of the coil and goes to the center of the distributer cap. You hold a screwdriver against the metal mag body and lean the tip toward the high tension clip. Then just flip the mag shaft with your fingers and see how big an arc you get. PS make sure to hold the screwdriver by its handle

This is good idea, but if a guy has and ignition tester why can he just hook up the plug wires up to the tester and put a drill on the dist shaft and give her a good spin. The probes are adjustable for spark gaps on them so you can visually check your spark plug gap? Your idea makes sense if you do not have any secondary spark out put at least you can isolate the dist and test it dirrect from the coil.

[2us70]

I used a dwell meter to set the points spinning the mag with a drill. You have to remove the high tension clip to do this or you will get one hell of a shock. The key to these mags performance is coil saturation. Making sure the points are clean and meet perfectly flat as well as keeping the dwell as high as possible maximizes saturation. At 5000 rpm these things are firing 20000 times a minute and the points are only closed a little more than 1/2 the time.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I used a dwell meter to set the points spinning the mag with a drill. You have to remove the high tension clip to do this or you will get one hell of a shock. The key to these mags performance is coil saturation. Making sure the points are clean and meet perfectly flat as well as keeping the dwell as high as possible maximizes saturation. At 5000 rpm these things are firing 20000 times a minute and the points are only closed a little more than 1/2 the time.

Well it sounds like you know your s # # t on these. Like I said before I lucked out and was able to purchase some NOS points and condenser and new wick came with the kit. I made very sure that the points were flat when they closed. I have the book on this I will heed your advice and set with a dwell metter. Should I set it on 4 cylinder like automotoive applications? I have a digital meter and an analog meter to set the dwell. Should I use the digital so I can get it right on the nats a s s ? Merc recomended what you suggested also.

[2us70]

No such thing as a digital dwell meter in 1969. I just set my cheap Kmart one to 4 cyl. All you are reading is really percent break anyway. Post pictures of your Yellow Jacket when you get it together.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

No such thing as a digital dwell meter in 1969. I just set my cheap Kmart one to 4 cyl. All you are reading is really percent break anyway. Post pictures of your Yellow Jacket when you get it together.

Can a non Senior member post picks on here?

[2us70]

I wonder if that "senior member" tag came with my medicare card?

[Mark75H]

The key to these mags performance is coil saturation. Making sure the points are clean and meet perfectly flat as well as keeping the dwell as high as possible maximizes saturation. At 5000 rpm these things are firing 20000 times a minute and the points are only closed a little more than 1/2 the time.

This ^^^^ ! At 5,000 that's 333 times per second - and when properly set up these would run a 4 cylinder to over 9,000 rpm

[BAD ASS BOAT]

This ^^^^ ! At 5,000 that's 333 times per second - and when properly set up these would run a 4 cylinder to over 9,000 rpm

Wish I had a smart phone to see what you put up? I will definately be setting this with a dwell meter . Finally starting to put the engine back together when you sand and paint every part on these old engines it sure takes a long time to get them back together especially when you havent done one before.

[2us70]

Do you have the short block apart? If you do when you reassemble it make sure you get the crank endplay right and centered between the end cap bearings. Also watch the reed stop settings and make sure they have correct clearance to the crank throws. You can use large worm drive hose clamps as ring compressors just take care not to scratch the pistons. Once the pistons are in you unscrew the worm drive and take them off the rods.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Do you have the short block apart? If you do when you reassemble it make sure you get the crank endplay right and centered between the end cap bearings. Also watch the reed stop settings and make sure they have correct clearance to the crank throws. You can use large worm drive hose clamps as ring compressors just take care not to scratch the pistons. Once the pistons are in you unscrew the worm drive and take them off the rods.


This motor has very very low hours on it. I did not have to rebuild the motor thank God! Its been horible enough with doing that. When you don't have anybody around to show you what to do or had any experence doing these its very hard.

I have built a bunch of car engines and built up high performance engines but never have touched a two stroke. What you telling me about the reeds is all chinese.


You should of seen the 1957 Keikafer points I pulled out they all one very very small spec on them hardly any use at all.

[2us70]

Sounds like you have a low time motor. If you have good even compression or leakdown all you have to do is button it up and run it. If you want to get a look at the condition of the pistons,rings and cylinders you can remove the intake port covers on the right side and look right into each cylinder. I don't know if you are aware that this motor has no cylinder head. All those bolts are just water jacket bolts,the cylinders are blind castings.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Sounds like you have a low time motor. If you have good even compression or leakdown all you have to do is button it up and run it. If you want to get a look at the condition of the pistons,rings and cylinders you can remove the intake port covers on the right side and look right into each cylinder. I don't know if you are aware that this motor has no cylinder head. All those bolts are just water jacket bolts,the cylinders are blind castings.

I did not know that . That is interesting. So do these have some sleve in the block? When I got it sombody had wrote the comp on the side of the exhaust plate 140 all the way down and I think one was 145 this old girl has done a lot of sitting. If the guy I bought it from hadnt bought the boat the boat was going for fire wood. The previous owner just had the engine for sale and the guy I bought it from rescued the yellow jacket and the original motor.

[2us70]

Before you start that motor up make sure the water pump and all of its rubber grommets and seals are good. If not you will soon get familiar with the inside of the powerhead. In order to open up the water pump on one of those units I would advise lots of penetrating oil and patience. I think there are a few sources for parts for those motors. The Antique Outboard Motor Club has links to several.http://www.aomci.org/

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Before you start that motor up make sure the water pump and all of its rubber grommets and seals are good. If not you will soon get familiar with the inside of the powerhead. In order to open up the water pump on one of those units I would advise lots of penetrating oil and patience. I think there are a few sources for parts for those motors. The Antique Outboard Motor Club has links to several.http://www.aomci.org/

When I said I am restoring this engine I ment I am restoring this engine. I tore the gear case completely down and resealed it and replace the water pump impeller. I do marine repair for a living I just dont work on these antiques engines because they always come back and bit you in the a s s. I could not get the cup out and did not want to destroy it so that seal under neath is the only one I coudlnt get out with out destorying the water pump cup all the other seals are replaced. I did have a hell of a time getting that coller off for the pump and the propshaft support I had to heat the case with my torch to get it to break loose. And no Idid not get it cherry read I just heated up the case to get it loose.

[2us70]

I feel for you on that one. The later prop jet exhaust lower units were much easier to work on.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I feel for you on that one. The later prop jet exhaust lower units were much easier to work on.

Thanks I appreaciate that. I guess they don't call them metric torches for nothing! LOL When the guy took me for a test drive in the boat he said he replace the impeller well he didnt the old one was so stiff I am sure it was the 1957 model also. At stiff as it was I cannont beleive it even pumped water but I had a nice flow off water comming out the back even with this old brittle impeller.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Thanks I appreaciate that. I guess they don't call them metric torches for nothing! LOL When the guy took me for a test drive in the boat he said he replace the impeller well he didnt the old one was so stiff I am sure it was the 1957 model also. At stiff as it was I cannont beleive it even pumped water but I had a nice flow off water comming out the back even with this old brittle impeller.

Once I finally got the collar off for the pump the impeller would not come out. I had to take a chisel and litterly destroy it to get it out. Fun times on these old engines! There was some few choice words comming out of the shop that day. When people restore these engines and they have 5 k on them . I really doubt they make any money ./ I totally respect anybody that works on these engines . They are a labor of love.

[Bies]

Tight points will dwell out quickly, try a small fish pull scale, or one used to set trigger pull, on rifles

[GENE LANHAM]

This ^^^^ ! At 5,000 that's 333 times per second - and when properly set up these would run a 4 cylinder to over 9,000 rpm

They were great magnetos. Stan Irwin made adpters/drives to use these mags on other race engines. There were hydros and race cars using the 'red cap' mags. A Chevy II, Alfa, or Crosley turning 10,000 RPM's was only turnng the mag 5,000---

[2us70]

You have to use actual distributer cam lube when you install the points. If you do it right you should get reasonable time between readjustments. I have run one at about 6000rpm for 6 hours continuously with no problems. Like Gene says these were great ignitions but unlike the later Thunderbolts they are not set it and forget it.

Tight points will dwell out quickly, try a small fish pull scale, or one used to set trigger pull, on rifles

[BAD ASS BOAT]

You have to use actual distributer cam lube when you install the points. If you do it right you should get reasonable time between readjustments. I have run one at about 6000rpm for 6 hours continuously with no problems. Like Gene says these were great ignitions but unlike the later Thunderbolts they are not set it and forget it.

Since the NOS tune up kit was 1965 I made sure to add some more cam lube to the new wick. I will make sure to get the dwell set correctly. Right now I am trying to get the gear case back in and get the shift mechanisim lined up been fighting it for about two hours or more. Fun time with these old engines especially when you havent done one before. And when you have everything apart for about 3 months it really gets fun! How in the hell this go back together? LOL

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Ok guys I need everybody to put on their thinking caps. I have taken everybody's advice on here plus consulting the shop manual and I realize its better to set the dwell with a meter than just set it with a feeler gauge.

Ok here is the deal I have check my my mags spark put put I have rebuilt and it kicks butt. So I want to do this one right so I mounted the dist in the vice and took my drill with a 5/16 socket on the end and rotated the shaft on the dist with a anolog dwell meter the very lowest the dwell will go is 80 degrees. So I whipped out my digital meter set it on 4 cylinder hook it up and it also is in the 80s doesnt matter if I open them wide or close them to the point that the points have barely any gap.

I used to be an auto tech and have set up a lot of points in conventional ingitions systems.

Again I have replaced the points and condenser with OEM NOS Merc points and condenser. The spark is excellent. My only recourse is to set the points at the reccomended 00.008 and ship it. The factory specs on this dist is 48 degrees is the book telling somthing wrong?

Like I said no matter how closed or how wide I can not get the dwell set at 48 degrees.

Thanks Roger

[staylor]

I would just set the gap at .009 for new points and .008 for used points- that's all I ever did with my 4 cyl Mercs. The manual wants you to use a dwell plate- like a degree wheel- along with a test light to find when the points open/close. Most dwell meters only run zero to 80 degrees- so if yours is staying at 80 it indicates that it is not getting a signal it can use.
Doug

[2us70]

I think my cheap Kmart dwell/tach meter had selector switch for 2 or4 cycle motors on it as well as dwell an tach functions on it. I also used it on cars along with a vacuum gage for settting up carbs.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I set the points at 8 last night and put every thing back together then got my spark test bank tester and hook up al the plug wires and gaver her a spin man alive nice bright blue spark steady with a half inch gap , I am so stoked, I will go back in and reset for 0.009 It I tried my anolog kmart special that has done me good over the years I guess they just don't pick up the dwell on a mag neither the digital meter. If this is all I need to do then I guess I am good to go. I am happy as this is my very first mag I have completely restore I learned a lot.

Thanks guys!

[Mark75H]

I think the Kwast old merc forum "white pages" have downloadable pdf's of Merc's template for adjusting the points. You can make a pointer out of a coat hanger.

Don't ask me for a direct link, I have parted ways with that board.

[2us70]

1/2 blue spark is plenty good. put it back together and fire it up. Good luck.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

When I first got it going last night before I started screwing with setting the dwell it had a decent spark. The more I fooled with it and turned the dist with my drill the better it seemed to function I went back in and reajusted to the 0.009 on the gap and now it kicks ass! I set the gap on my spark tester almot 3/4 and I had a beautiful nice blue steady zap clear across the board. So now I am not going to worry about dwell. I am hoping to put in the dist tonight and get the timming set I hope by tommorow.

Thanks again guys

[GENE LANHAM]

I think the Kwast old merc forum "white pages" have downloadable pdf's of Merc's template for adjusting the points. You can make a pointer out of a coat hanger.

Don't ask me for a direct link, I have parted ways with that board.

Thanks Sam. Now I remember. A degree plate; a pointer and a meter. I still have my MercTronic, over fifty years later----

[BAD ASS BOAT]

SOS GUYS NEED HELP!
Setting the advance for timming
　
　
Ok I have the dist installed the stator and flywheel used my merc dial indicator tool for timing engines and made sure to get it on TDC on no one cylinder got it dead on and 0 out the dial indicator made double sure I have the piston on TDC.
Ok you are supposed to rotate the fly wheel clock wise .235 so I rotated the fly wheel on the dial indicator 2 revolutions according to the dial indicator plus the 35 for a total of .235
Ok so far so good right am I doing this right
　
Now this is where I am supposed to advance the dist against the stop and put a test light on the terminal on the magneto and when the points just open up and the light goes out then set your stop? Right?
　
Ok I put a test light in series from a 12 volt battery Positive terminal to the terminal on the magneto and put the other negative wire to ground on the motor .
So the test light came on and I started to rotate the dist and the light just stayed on and no matter what I did it stayed on the points would not break.
So I got out my ohm meter and check the terminal on the mag and ground and I have continuity . I though now that terminal needs to insulated and I had checked that when I put the dist together but now the post is shorted to the terminal. Now mind you I checked the dist completely and it put out very good spark.
Well I took out the dist again tore is apart and check the terminal and checked it with my ohm meter and it was still shorted out.
When I removed the wire for the coil it quit I realized that it was following the path from the points terminal where the mag hooks on through the coil to the ground terminal.
I thought I had this all figured out and everybody told me I could use a test light to check the opening and closing of the points but I cant once the coil is hooked up it grounds the circuit and the test light stays on all the time so I cant check the opening and closing of the points. I don’t have the merc tronic tool to do this and quite frankly I don’t know how to check the opening and closing of the points when the coil circuit grounds every thing out .
HELP !

[2us70]

what brand mag do you have? Fairbanks- Morse or Kiekhaefer 4d ? I have never worked on a F-M mag but it sounds like the primary wire is shorting to the case. Check the isolator. bushing and washers. They have to insulate the primary wire from the mag case.

[Mark75H]

First, check the wire that goes to the mag terminal to STOP the motor. This wire stops the motor by shorting it to ground. If you have a wire on the stop terminal, remove it and recheck the timing.

If you still have a dead short with the wire removed, open the mag and look at the wire & insulation on the stop terminal inside the mag. Possibly you rotated the internal wires when you tightened the connection on the outside and are full time grounded.

If all is good around the stop terminal, check the spring and the wire that goes to the condenser ... or the condenser itself.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Ok I hope I have this figured out. Last night when I could not get the light to go off and on with the closing of the points I had no clue what was going on.
I took the dist off and found out that the post was grounding out through the coil inside because one lead goes to the points and on the other side the coil goes ground. I disconnected the negative lead on the coil and tried the test light again and the light went on and off.
Ok I found out why the light would not go out when the mag was installed on the out board. But I did not know what to do.
So this morning I sent a message to Doug one of the members on here and he told me to remove the wires on the points and reinstall the dist with out the cap and rotor on it.
So I took his advice but just removed the negative terminal on the coil instead of removing all the wires on the points. I reinstalled the dist made sure I was on TDC on no 1 with my dial indicator and was lined up with the pulley on the dist.
I turned the flywheel counter clockwise .235 degrees by the dial indicator and then I hooked up a negative lead from a battery to the housing on the dist then I hooked a test light on the positive lead on the batter and the other end to the post on the Mag. It lit up I loosened the bolts on the stop bracket and turned the dist back and the light went out . I pushed the stop bracket forward against the block of the motor tightened the bolts I then pushed the dist bracket against the block again to see if the light would come on and it did not..
So all this hell that I have went through with this motor I have learned a lot if it had not been for Doug I would of ended up in a rubber room.
I pulled out the dist and put it back together and tomorrow put it back in the engine, It was late and didn’t want to screw it up.
Thanks for all the help !

[2us70]

I hope you mean .235 thousandths not degrees. These old motors are timed by piston distance in inches before TDC not crank rotation degrees. When I was racing those motors I used a device called a MicroTime plug which allowed you to set the piston any chosen distance from TDC since we rarely ran stock timing. I have seen the factory timing plugs which only give you the stock .235 position on antique outboard sites and Ebay. I have also used a standard depth micrometer for this purpose, it is a little more complicated but it works.

[2us70]

Here is a link to an old issue of Popular Mechanics. On page 211 there is an ad for Micro-Time which shows it pretty well. I gave mine to a buddy of mine who has several antique Mercury race motors. http://books.google.com/books?id=SNgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=MicroTime+plug&source=bl&ots=agrnNmlWA1&sig=7DDuixwm9r4uNWeXqzxJHrtioj0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mg5wUbv8EcmfrAHIiYCIBA&sqi=2&ved=0CHQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=MicroTime%20plug&f=false Hope this works.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I hope you mean .235 thousandths not degrees. These old motors are timed by piston distance in inches before TDC not crank rotation degrees. When I was racing those motors I used a device called a MicroTime plug which allowed you to set the piston any chosen distance from TDC since we rarely ran stock timing. I have seen the factory timing plugs which only give you the stock .235 position on antique outboard sites and Ebay. I have also used a standard depth micrometer for this purpose, it is a little more complicated but it works.

Well I have been an autotech for years and went to school and was always taught to set in degrees. What ever you want to call it it is still the same and I did set it up with a dial indicator. I got the same results either way.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Here is a link to an old issue of Popular Mechanics. On page 211 there is an ad for Micro-Time which shows it pretty well. I gave mine to a buddy of mine who has several antique Mercury race motors. http://books.google.com/books?id=SNgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=MicroTime+plug&source=bl&ots=agrnNmlWA1&sig=7DDuixwm9r4uNWeXqzxJHrtioj0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mg5wUbv8EcmfrAHIiYCIBA&sqi=2&ved=0CHQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=MicroTime%20plug&f=false Hope this works.


Oh s h i t gotta find one of those ! Ebay here I come! Thanks !

[2us70]

The first few of those type timing plugs I saw were homemade from a sparkplug body and an old micrometer. Harbor Freight sells micrometers cheap enough to cut up and make your own.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

The first few of those type timing plugs I saw were homemade from a sparkplug body and an old micrometer. Harbor Freight sells micrometers cheap enough to cut up and make your own.

I have the Merc- Tronic dial indicator kit but I looked at the one you had and thought that would be cool its a combo with the light and the gauge.

I did not find one like yours but I found a military type for Gen sets and Aircraft it looked WW11 had the case and instructions but I am thinking this one just had the light on it to let you know when your points were opened or closed. It did not time the engine persay. On these old mercs with no timming marks it gets tricky as I found out.

[Mark75H]

I think .235" is about 40°

I never found any of it to be tricky ;)

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I have some thing to add to this subjet since you guys are all on board. The subject matter is base timming I noticed there is not provisions nor specs for base timming on these engines.

I set the WOT throttle stops today then set the inital idle stop and I noticed that it moved the dist in the advanced dirrection. The book says that with the flywheel on TDC and the Dist mark lined up that the timming is 20 degrees ATDC. Ok me being a 4 stroke guy this just doesnt compute how does an engine run at 20 degrees after top dead center?


So can you guys shed some light on this doesnt seem to be an issue with the merc shop manual and as soon as you change the idle stop is moves the base timming. So the base timming is all over the board.


So can you guys educate me on this base timming on these old motors??

[staylor]

Older two stroke motors tend to idle better with the timing retarded from TDC. This is especially true with motors used for family boating or fishing where a smooth idle is a plus. Thus, the normal set-up is to set the timing at WOT, adjust the initial throttle pick-up point, and set the idle stop at some point in advance or retard from tdc that the manufacturer has figured out as giving a smooth idle. After you get the motor running you juggle the idle stop position to suit the rpm that works best for you with the prop you normally use. If a fishing motor is used for trolling it is common to slow the idle speed way down to as low as the motor can handle without stalling. On really old motors where the throttle is separate from the spark advance lever the spark lever is simply retarded until the motor stops. This all changed when the Fed started to force emissions regs on outboards, since running a typical 2 stroke at slow idle with a heavily retarded spark generates fairly high emissions. My old KG4 Merc has a synchronized throttle and spark lever- and the entire "slow" range as marked on the engine is done with spark retard only- it eyeballs in at around 20 degrees retard from throttle pick-up thru the region labled as "slow" until you get to "stop".
Doug

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Well after 5 months or pure hell on this motor I got the wiring harness repaired of all the rotten wiring Wednesday and got the wiring harness installed last night . So if everything goes good I will be reading to put it in the tank fill it up and fire it up I hope. I have been working on this for so long my mind does not compute this engine running. I got the other two spark plugs I needed and a couple gallons of mid grade fuel. Is it my understanding this mix is 20:1 ? Not 50;1 like the newer Mercs and OMC? I am just going by memory from the book please correct me if I am wrong. I will double check the book again to make sure.

Everybody cross your fingers ok I hope this engine doesnt blow up in my face.

[Mark75H]

No, 20:1 is way too much oil. Run 32:1, 40:1 or 50:1 depending on what is easiest for you to measure with your measuring cup.

None of the Mercs of that era used 20:1. It will work for racing, but you will have a lot of trouble with plug fouling at idle at 20:1. Racers idle very little and have lots of spark plugs; pretty sure that's not in your plan.

Its been a long time since I looked at the Merc manual, but I don't recall the mag swinging 60° thru full arc - could be, I rarely work on a stock motor or a non-DR

[2us70]

No, 20:1 is way too much oil. Run 32:1, 40:1 or 50:1 depending on what is easiest for you to measure with your measuring cup.

None of the Mercs of that era used 20:1. It will work for racing, but you will have a lot of trouble with plug fouling at idle at 20:1. Racers idle very little and have lots of spark plugs; pretty sure that's not in your plan.

Its been a long time since I looked at the Merc manual, but I don't recall the mag swinging 60° thru full arc - could be, I rarely work on a stock motor or a non-DR
75H is right on this. I ran 24:1 in most of my motors and 20:1 on initial break-in on a fresh rebuild. My motors spent most of their time a WOT and though they did idle well they loaded up rather quickly. After break-in I always used Mercury engine cleaner to clean out the carbon from the rich oil mix.
PS, If you run extra oil be sure to run high-test gas. These old motors were not too octane sensitive but the oil lowers the fuels octane rating so just be careful. I always ran AMOCO high-test but it only cost $.36 a gallon and was supposed to be 100 octane.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

After 5 months of hell restoring this engine I def don't want to screw it up. Just stick with the tried and true 50:1 I am hoping to fire up tommorow spent 8 hours cleaning out all the junk out of the shop. Boy its amazing how much s h i t shows up in the shop for you to trip over. :}

[Mark75H]

I'd actually run slightly more than 50:1, but its fine if that's what you are used to measuring. I run 40:1 in my 1971 135.

One good thing is they are very forgiving on excessively advanced timing. If you are a spark plug watcher, you will see lots of aluminum on the spark plug before there is any noticeable loss from the piston crown. (Based on 3 minute test runs, not hour long cruises.)

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Older two stroke motors tend to idle better with the timing retarded from TDC. This is especially true with motors used for family boating or fishing where a smooth idle is a plus. Thus, the normal set-up is to set the timing at WOT, adjust the initial throttle pick-up point, and set the idle stop at some point in advance or retard from tdc that the manufacturer has figured out as giving a smooth idle. After you get the motor running you juggle the idle stop position to suit the rpm that works best for you with the prop you normally use. If a fishing motor is used for trolling it is common to slow the idle speed way down to as low as the motor can handle without stalling. On really old motors where the throttle is separate from the spark advance lever the spark lever is simply retarded until the motor stops. This all changed when the Fed started to force emissions regs on outboards, since running a typical 2 stroke at slow idle with a heavily retarded spark generates fairly high emissions. My old KG4 Merc has a synchronized throttle and spark lever- and the entire "slow" range as marked on the engine is done with spark retard only- it eyeballs in at around 20 degrees retard from throttle pick-up thru the region labled as "slow" until you get to "stop".


Doug



Well this is one of those I'll be damned moments I did not know that about timming on old two strokes. I am used to four strokes where base and adanced is both critical!

Thanks Doug


Roger

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Can you guys throw me another life line? I went to start it last night and it popped and farted in the water and the firiing order is off or the the base timming. I was very slow and methodical when I set the dist up. When I put in the new wires on the cap I made sure the terminal was marked from the factory No. 1 then followed the wire out and put the old sleve on the end by the boot corisponding that the wire was indeed no 1. So on and so on to make sure every wire was properly marked in reference to the cap. When I installed the mag I crossed my I's and crossed my T's and double checked the proper base timming with the line on the retainer for the pulley for the mag lines up with the TDC mark on the flywheel. I verified this multiple times with a dial indicator on TDC on no 1.

I might add here on the retainger flange on the mag there is actually two markings one very long one which I asume is the factory reference mark to set up the mag and then a small partal mark very short make to be exact next to it. I assumed it was a factory miss stamping and went with the standard long clearly stamped mark.

I looked in the Merc manual and it very clearly states there is only one mark on the cap for the belt for the mag. The long clear marking that is stamped very pronounced is the one I went with.

The way the engine is popping and farting in the water I know the firing order is way off I check to make sure all corresponding number wires went with the correct cylinders.

Like I asked eariler the factory did not make a issue out of base timming. But now that I think of it the retainer on the pulley on the mag has two markings that are not supposed to be there.

So today I am going to tear the mag out for the 1000s time and try and find out why the firing order is off when I have checked every thing througly?

You guys ever come accross a retainer on the mag with one long line and one short on to the right of it. The manual tells me it should not be there and should only have one marking.

This is def one of those WTF! moments. LOL


I want to clairify again I did a mag test out put bench test on the spark with my bank tester and I had a nice bright blue spark accross all leads with a 3/4 inch gap. So carefull and yet it still bites you in the a s s/ If this engined wasnt the original engine for the Yellow Jacket I think I would take it out in the feild and unload my AK on it!

Anybody got life perserver they can toss me?

[2us70]

I wish you could post some pictures of your motor showing how you set up your ignition. I remember a lot about those motors but I haven't actually seen one in many years so some stuff falls through the cracks in my memory. You are right in thinking that either firing order or base timing is way off. Wait a minute! Pull the retainer plate off the pulley and look at the mag drive pulley there should be either an arrow or a dot on one of the teeth. That dot or arrow is what you line up with the mark on the flywheel. Then put the belt retainer back on, check your timing and firing order again .This might do it. Good Luck
Found a picture of 1. Hope this link works.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Kiekhaefer-Outboard-Motor-Magneto-Drive-Pully-29906-29907-65hp-115hp-/400458776285?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item5d3d33fedd#ht_1320wt_1091
Don't worry about marks on top of retainer.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Update: I took the mag out and made double sure I had the plug wires marked correctly with the factory stamping on the cap and I had all the plug wires in correctly on the cap with correct tagged cylinder numbers. They were installed correctly and marked correctly. Ok on to the next thing. I lined up the rotor with the no 1 terminal on the cap then I took a felt tip marker and put a line on the side of the Dist to mark where the rotor should be for No 1 TDC.

Now I reinstalled the dist put every thing back at factory specs . Piston on TDC varified with a dial indicator then put the retainer back on the timming gear on the mag and lined every thing perfectly . So what the factory is telling me is with the fly wheel mark of TDC lined up with the mark on the gear on the mag every thing should be lined up for no 1 cylinder ready to fire.

Guess what it was not. I put a mirror under the dist with the cap off to see where the rotor was and it was between no 1 and not three almost to no 3 . Now mind you I an going with all factory marks the gear for the mag can only go on one way because of the key way and the factory stamped line on the cap for the gear and the TDC mark on the flywheel verified with a dial indicator.

Ok why is it not on no 1 ? The dist housing will only go on one way and it I had the dist in totally wrong I wouldnt of been able to set the timming advance stop at the .235 factory specs


So I am thinking the factory had of stamped the cap for the dist gear wrong. So I made sure the flywheel was still TDC and pulled the belt off and turned the gear on the dist counter clock wise untill the rotor was on no 1 put the cap back on gear and got a straight edge and took a seal pick and make a reference mark on the cap to let me know where the true make is for TDC for no 1


I took the mag back off took off the ground wire for the coil reinstalled the dist set the advance again for the points just opening for the .235 tightend down the stop bolts for the dist stop every thing went good so far .


I took the dist back off and reinstalled the cap and rotor and put the mag back on the engine but this time put everything back on no 1 verified with the mark I made for no one.

Tried to start the motor but the bastard still would not start pump up fuel to the carbs choked it has fuell kick up the throttle and decided to check spark must of pulled off one the terminals on the plug wires I had spark on it then I didnt . So I am tired my back is hurting and it s freakin 9.00 oclock so I am thinking that I don't have fuel up to the clyinders but fresh tommorow and prime every thing and fix the plug wire and hopefully I am not beating my head against concrete again.

Oh this paticuliar gear on the mag does not have the arrow stamped in it. I do know what you mean

WELLCOME TO MY INSANE WORLD ! IF IT DOES NOT START TOMMOROW HAVE THE GUYS COME WITH THE NET AND THE STRAIGHT JACKET I WILL BE READY FOR HAPPY ACRES!

[2us70]

Can you post a pic of your mag drive pulley? I haven't touched one of those things in 35 years so I need a visual reference. On some pulleys there is only a small stamped or raised dot on top of one of the pulley teeth. That serves the same purpose as the arrow. I raced motors with that same ignition drive assembly for a dozen years and every time I got one wet I had to take it apart so I got pretty familiar with them. I have never seen an unmarked or mismarked drive pulley. It is not possible to engage the mag incorrectly , it will only go on in one spot on the mag drive shaft. I would like to get my hands on that motor! When you finally get it right you are going to be surprised how easy it really is.

[2us70]

I am sorry that my recollections of this stuff is coming back in bits and pieces, but here it is. Ignore TDC. The flywheel on that motor should be a solid steel kind of dish shaped piece. On the edge of the flywheel there should be a small notch or a factory embossed line. Line up this mark with the indicating mark( dot or arrow) on the drive pulley and drop on the timing belt. Then put the retainer plate and center bolt back on. Don't worry about the rotor position it will be ok. Then set your points to break at .235 @ WOT. I used to change these parts with just a couple of open end wrenches. Once you get the timing set taking out the mag or changing timing belts or mag drive bearings wont change it. Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnR-A8H_L8
This link should do it for you http://www.maxrules.com/oldmercs/timing/14.pdf

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I am sorry that my recollections of this stuff is coming back in bits and pieces, but here it is. Ignore TDC. The flywheel on that motor should be a solid steel kind of dish shaped piece. On the edge of the flywheel there should be a small notch or a factory embossed line. Line up this mark with the indicating mark( dot or arrow) on the drive pulley and drop on the timing belt. Then put the retainer plate and center bolt back on. Don't worry about the rotor position it will be ok. Then set your points to break at .235 @ WOT. I used to change these parts with just a couple of open end wrenches. Once you get the timing set taking out the mag or changing timing belts or mag drive bearings wont change it. Take a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnR-A8H_L8

I did just that about a 25 times and all the engine would do is pop and fart in the water. I have been over this so many times and over the shop manual so many times I have dotted my I's and crossed my T's so many times. The shop manual says line every thing up and firs it up and you say line everything up and fire it up but the motor has different ideas. With every thing lined up to factory specs and with TDC with on no 1 cylinder verfied with a dial indicator the rotor was just about on no 3 terminal on the cap so I knew I was way off. So late last night I physically got everything lined up with the dial indicator again TDC no 1 then took the rotor and got it lined up on No 1 and made my own reference mark on the side of the dist and on the pulley. Put it back together late last night tried one more time and it did not fire. I am thinking I need to prime the cylinders and crank case with fuel and try it again.

Like I said I am ready for the rubber room!

[Bies]

I know there are different numbers on the cap, if number 1 is at TDC that should be #1 Fire, make sure the rotor is pointing to the number 1 plug wire for #1 fire. The pic sent from E-Bay indicated to me the mark is at the keyway on the pully?

[Bies]

Isn't the firing order 1,4,3,2??, Someone else?, If so or what ever it is, firing order should be from #1 fire in the direction of the rotor with the correct wire to correct Cyl.

[2us70]

Firing order is 1-3-2-4

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Now the starter went out! Now I know why you guys don't work on these engines anymore LOL! Send the guys with straight jacket I am soooooooooooooooo ready for happy acres!

[Bies]

Starter shop probably brushes, and a straight jacket

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I went yesterday and had the feilds checked and the armature checked and there good. He said you have to take out the feilds and solder one of the brushes on . As dirty and nasty as the copper is in there I am wondering if the solder would even stick. He doubted he would have the brushes. What weird is the brushes are both set at an angle and not opsing each other like most starters I have had apart. That is the weirest setup for brushes I have ever seen. I have rebuilt old chrysler gear reduction starters, Fords, and Gms but never seen one like this design.

I will check on the straight jacket though:} I am so there!

[Bies]

Try
Johns Mercury site.com

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Ok thanks!

[Bies]

Think its
www.johnsoldmercurysite.com (http://www.johnsoldmercurysite.com)

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Think its
www.johnsoldmercurysite.com (http://www.johnsoldmercurysite.com)

I went down to the gen shop and got some brushes they are too big but I told the guy if you can get me in the ball park I can resize them. One of the techs said you a file and be slow because you will crack and bust them. So I am taking out the feilds and the holders for the brushes and Im am going to take my time. I sooooooooooooooooooooo want this night mare over with.

Cross your fingers for me ! Thanks guys!

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Spent the afternoon filinge the brushes so they would fit the holders just got the last one filed to fit and solderd. Quit around 10.00 oclock. I am going to get the starter put together tommorow I hope the hell it works. I really need this hell over! LOL

[BAD ASS BOAT]

I just wanted you guys to know I got the starter fixed . I didnt have the correct brushes . I went to the gen shop here and they gave me some big ass brushes I took me almost three days to file the brushes down and modify the brush holders and to solder the brushes in and get everything isolated on the the wires, Must of had that feild out 20 times. After soldering the brushes the wires were stiff so I had to modify the ground holder with a eyelet drill the case and attach the wire to the case. I also serviced the amature and pollished the comountator, What a pain in the butt! Never again. Got it back together and finally got it running. I had put the gasket in wrong for the power head leaking water all over the place had to pull the power head off fixed the gasked put it on right put the power head back on tightend every thing down in sequeince and now the bottom studs in the middle are dribbling and the rubber for the bottom mounts are leaking water. But that bastard runs! I rechecked the .235 on the mag and it was right on still even after I I pulled out the mag to pull the power head. I might pull it apart again tommorow. I was so beat last night I got the shop cleaned up took me over three hours to clean the shop.

I wanted everybody to know I got it running ! I did some fine adjustments on it turn the idle down and adjusted the A/F mixture I just have it in a barrel but it fires right up on a click of the starter.

The timming Gremling was a very very light casting arrow on the pulley it was so light you could not see it.


THANKS TO EVERBODY ON THIS BLOG I COULDNT OF DONE IT WITH OUT YOU. FINALLY 5 MONTHS OF HELL FINALLY OVER WITH! ROGER

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Huh said sombody replied and there is nothing here huh? Weid

[GENE LANHAM]

Thanks Sam. Now I remember. A degree plate; a pointer and a meter. I still have my MercTronic, over fifty years later----

I was at the hangar and saw this---had to take a pic----and it still works on the Bendix/TCM mags on my plane--- (Yes!!!!! Airplanes are still using the latest 1930's technology!!!!!)

http://i42.tinypic.com/2dqjbz9.jpg

[2us70]

Glad to see that you are still flying.

[BAD ASS BOAT]

Glad to see that you are still flying.

My ex is still flying also if you look up at the full moon at night you will see her on her broom!

[2us70]

Sort of like this?281049281049
My ex is still flying also if you look up at the full moon at night you will see her on her broom!

[BAD ASS BOAT]

No more like a witches hat and black dress with a big wart on her nose with flames comming out the back of the broom at midnight with the full moon shinning brightly . LOL