Fastest SOB hull???

[Greg G]

I agree, this is a pretty good shot of your P22 aired out TooStroked. Really shows the hull bottom.

[TooStroked]

I agree, maybe someone has a picture of a P22 aired out in high resolution?

Greg,

Just PM'ed you my e-mail address. I can e-mail you several pretty decent aired out shots of mine.

Tom

[schiadart]

270442

Not ugly.

[schiadart]

270444

one the way home from Catalina.

[dnelson964]

OK....Here is the Red 21' Intimidator w/300X running in a Video ! Keith (Trimmed Out15) driving.

I don't even know if Keith has even seen this. I videoed this along with so much else at the 2011 Ct. River Run that it may have been lost until now.

Now let's have others find and post Videos of supposed 'fast' SOB's in the running and really have a good look ! :cool::thumbsup:

Video Link>>>>>> intimidator21 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDus1ciFwiY)

[frontline]

Watch goneby's video

Check out this video on YouTube:


http://youtu.be/_K8boEfKrx4

[schiadart]

270451270452270453270454270455

This is the plug. The deck is a mold but running the plug bottom I can pull a skier 88mph No idea what top speed is without a skier. This boat if built from plug would be at least 200lb lighter. I do not know what I am going to do not many people have the money to purchase small boats right now for the same price as a bigger boat. FYI<o:p></o:p>

[Greg G]

Keep in mind that the Bernico had a 2.5 s3000 that probably putted out about 400hp or close! That engine was built in Belgium for F1 cat racing....

400hp........I thought the s3000 was basically a 300 Drag with a 12" mid?

[schiadart]

400hp........I thought the s3000 was basically a 300 Drag with a 12" mid?

It was not a stock motor Nico even said so. It all has to do with weight and how long the boat will last. Anyone can make a light boat go fast but last in big water is another story. Amount of hp and weight = SPEED. If you want speed and nasty water for prolonged periods you will be in the glass shop a lot the lighter the boat is built. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>

[Greg G]

And isn't the rough rule of thumb that it takes about 10hp to go 1mph faster?

[RBT]

Was the Tuff you mention that ran 102.5 also the Kevlar 890lb hull with no interior?
To make this very clear so there is no confusion. The 890 weight is a deck set on the hull, not a runnable hull, it is not a flyweight hull. It is stronger than the standard hull, and slightly less weight. Just for reference all the tuff's have more laminate mass than the original challenger by a considerable amount. The black tuff, rotorheads with the 300x (stock) that runs 102 is hundreds of pounds heavier than the newer hulls. It was hull number 1, and stupid over kill.

[Greg G]

Of the Fast 5 (Tuff, Bernico, Progression, Nordic, Sutphen) the Tuff 21 is the fastest production SOB available for purchase new in 2013. The Tuff 21 is king at 102.5MPH on GPS.

[fast fun 2]

To make this very clear so there is no confusion. The 890 weight is a deck set on the hull, not a runnable hull, it is not a flyweight hull. It is stronger than the standard hull, and slightly less weight. Just for reference all the tuff's have more laminate mass than the original challenger by a considerable amount. The black tuff, rotorheads with the 300x (stock) that runs 102 is hundreds of pounds heavier than the newer hulls. It was hull number 1, and stupid over kill.
That is SICK!

[schiadart]

And isn't the rough rule of thumb that it takes about 10hp to go 1mph faster?

I know I have a loss of anywhere between 1.5 mph to 3 mph per 100lb of extra weight depending where the weight was added with the same motor and same setup.

[schiadart]

I know the Nordic, Bernico and Tuff 21 are not production boats. You are kidding your self. Each one is made to order, Right? I will bet money on it that your so called 102 tuff would not last one Ski race season on the west coast with a top driver and a top skiier with out spend most of the time in the glass shop. Just saying.

[Mitchie]

No offense here about yanks we have pretty thick skin here.now you and your Canadian Mounties make a fine boat,would be a lot of fun if you could make the raindack rompin the spring.do you guys still all wear red cause that would be cool if you all showed up like that.

We always show up on horseback... lol. We have to stop at the border to change out of our snow suits. :)

[schiadart]

I know the Nordic, Bernico and Tuff 21 are not production boats. You are kidding your self. Each one is made to order, Right? I will bet money on it that your so called 102 tuff would not last one Ski race season on the west coast with a top driver and a top skiier with out spend most of the time in the glass shop. Just saying.

Greg where did you last post go?

[Greg G]

I know the Nordic, Bernico and Tuff 21 are not production boats. You are kidding your self. Each one is made to order, Right? I will bet money on it that your so called 102 tuff would not last one Ski race season on the west coast with a top driver and a top skiier with out spend most of the time in the glass shop. Just saying.

Looks like TUFF's owner is looking at the thread right now...........long live the King!


<tbody>





TUFFboat (http://www.screamandfly.com/member.php?2637-TUFFboat)

08:02 PM

Viewing Thread Fastest SOB hull??? (http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?260700-Fastest-SOB-hull)


</tbody>

[Mitchie]

Of the Fast 5 (Tuff, Bernico, Progression, Nordic, Sutphen) the Tuff 21 is the fastest production SOB available for purchase new in 2013. The Tuff 21 is king at 102.5MPH on GPS.

:) I knew we could be friends.


In all seriousness.... Cheers! And go Redskins!!


The Tuff boats are just mind blowing. They are an experiment in no expense spared. Everytime I see one, they never stop amazing me. I really can't wait until Mark or Blake head south, so that I can be part of the special moment of everyone getting to see one and watch one run for the first time. Trully works of art and engineering.

[RBT]

I know the Nordic, Bernico and Tuff 21 are not production boats. You are kidding your self. Each one is made to order, Right? I will bet money on it that your so called 102 tuff would not last one Ski race season on the west coast with a top driver and a top skiier with out spend most of the time in the glass shop. Just saying.

i would bet money you couldn't break it, frankly I would be shocked if you put a stress crack in it. The owner of tuff marine is a champion offshore throttle man, a mercury poster boy, raced skaters and mod-vp.
I know exactly the laminate schedule, of the stock boat, I designed it for the Kevlar boat.
I will not get too far into it as it is proprietary information, but it has the same laminate mass as a 40' skater, only infused with vinyl ester as opposed to bagged with epoxy like Pete does his boats.
They are built to never, ever have a problem. You can ask any offshore racer what the Great Lakes do to boats.......

[fast fun 2]

I know the Nordic, Bernico and Tuff 21 are not production boats. You are kidding your self. Each one is made to order, Right? I will bet money on it that your so called 102 tuff would not last one Ski race season on the west coast with a top driver and a top skiier with out spend most of the time in the glass shop. Just saying.
I race in the ocean too, professionally not "racing" with friends. I bet it would last just fine. Skaters are built the same way.

[schiadart]

i would bet money you couldn't break it, frankly I would be shocked if you put a stress crack in it. The owner of tuff marine is a champion offshore throttle man, a mercury poster boy, raced skaters and mod-vp.
I know exactly the laminate schedule, of the stock boat, I designed it for the Kevlar boat.
I will not get too far into it as it is proprietary information, but it has the same laminate mass as a 40' skater, only infused with vinyl ester as opposed to bagged with epoxy like Pete does his boats.
They are built to never, ever have a problem. You can ask any offshore racer what the Great Lakes do to boats.......

Funny I guess we are all racing the wrong boat. I will tell everyone in ski racing. We have all purchased the wrong boat.

[Greg G]

i would bet money you couldn't break it, I know exactly the laminate schedule, of the stock boat, I designed it for the Kevlar boat. They are built to never, ever have a problem.

100% Hydrox Resin and HydropelGel
100% Stichmat
100% Balsa core Bottom 5/8, sides and deck 3/8
100% Vacuum Bagged
100% Russian Birch transom, knees and stingers
100% Perimeter glassed.

Carbon, Kevlar and Infusion laminates available.

[schiadart]

100% Hydrox Resinand HydropelGel
100% Stichmat
100% Balsa core Bottom 5/8, sides and deck 3/8
100% Vacuum Bagged
100% Russian Birch transom, knees and stingers
100% Perimeter glassed.

Carbon, Kevlar and Infusion laminates available.

This is funny that is not a production Lamination. lol Carbon Kevlar..lol

[schiadart]

I race in the ocean too, professionally not "racing" with friends. I bet it would last just fine. Skaters are built the same way.

I do not Bet with my life..Some races your could be 20 miles from help.

[schiadart]

270465

So this is a production boat also. Are we talking stock power like a 300xs?


100% Hydrox Resin and HydropelGel
100% Stichmat
100% Balsa core Bottom 5/8, sides and deck 3/8
100% Vacuum Bagged
100% Russian Birch transom, knees and stingers
100% Perimeter glassed.

Carbon, Kevlar and Infusion laminates available.

[berzerko]

How many guys run in the 21' ob class, besides Catalina where else do they run?

[Mitchie]

Funny I guess we are all racing the wrong boat. I will tell everyone in ski racing. We have all purchased the wrong boat.


Maybe you are... lol. This is Georgian Bay... In front of my house. If you break a Tuff.. You will be injured or dead. Period.. BUILT LIKE A TANK! Like it or not. And like RBT said.... By an offshore race driver.
http://i46.tinypic.com/ei446g.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/34iqziv.jpg


I don't know.. Maybe I am wrong... But the guy throttling the blue Tuff e nuff boat probably does not know much about rough water boats...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKOic1zjlKU

[schiadart]

Please compare boats that are built the same with the same power and then you can say who is faster in any given condition.<o:p></o:p>

You all have a great day, time for us West Coast boys to put some time on the water training. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Have fun with that snow.

[Mitchie]

or this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJn5TqrCeLs

The boats he builds are to order... With a full, plush interior. Carpet, and the works. They are made to be a modern gentleman's racer that will last forever through the worst punishment. The byproduct being that they are fast ass balls.

[David]

Given equal quality of materials, wouldn't a heavier boat be stronger?

[Mitchie]

Please compare boats that are built the same with the same power and then you can say who is faster in any given condition.<o:p></o>

You all have a great day, time for us West Coast boys to put some time on the water training. <o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Have fun with that snow.

Don't get so frustrated... We are faster than you and can only run six months a year... lol :)

[CrazyHippy]

There is a difference in driving style with a dope on the rope.

Without, you can let the boat fly, get a rhythm going and end up with a half way decent, and still fast ride.

With a skier, it is no longer how fast the boat can go, but the skier limiting your speed. It is far faster over an hour long race to use as much boat as possible to beat the water into submission.

Obviously a boat that is being used as a battering ram will take more of a beating than one being piloted "correctly."

[hometown45]

SOB = Single OutBoard?

[dnelson964]

I know I have a loss of anywhere between 1.5 mph to 3 mph per 100lb of extra weight depending where the weight was added with the same motor and same setup.

And isn't the rough rule of thumb that it takes about 10hp to go 1mph faster?

Two very important things for all to keep in mind. :thumbsup:

This Thread is just full of great info..thanks for everyone posting in and keep it coming!

[JR IN JAX]

i would bet money you couldn't break it, frankly I would be shocked if you put a stress crack in it. The owner of tuff marine is a champion offshore throttle man, a mercury poster boy, raced skaters and mod-vp.
I know exactly the laminate schedule, of the stock boat, I designed it for the Kevlar boat.
I will not get too far into it as it is proprietary information, but it has the same laminate mass as a 40' skater, only infused with vinyl ester as opposed to bagged with epoxy like Pete does his boats.
They are built to never, ever have a problem. You can ask any offshore racer what the Great Lakes do to boats.......

Give it to me for just one Summer and I can break it, I can break anything [or die trying].... My unbreakable Grandsport has been cracked a half dozen times [and is cracked right now].....

[fast fun 2]

I do not Bet with my life..Some races your could be 20 miles from help.
What do I know about big water...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/577405_412943198729157_694598492_n.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/424587_458382557518554_1763612463_n.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/_DSC0021.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/_DSC0027_zps3fe78a58.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/_DSC0030_zpsfd1ef010.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yr1Z_F4tcc

[fast fun 2]

Give it to me for just one Summer and I can break it, I can break anything [or die trying].... My unbreakable Grandsport has been cracked a half dozen times [and is cracked right now].....
Theres a big difference between an Allison and a Tuff. One is made for BIG water, one isnt

[Jamescole]

Funny I guess we are all racing the wrong boat. I will tell everyone in ski racing. We have all purchased the wrong boat.

holy... lol... you are going at this like someone killed your dog..... its hard to know what would happen in the ski racing world when a Tuff isn't competing... i wouldn't go get everyone selling there boats... everyones got to understand that the tuff is great for the Ontario market where the water isn't the ocean but its not small so a fast 21 that's good in most Ontario conditions. and the price is no more than a wakeboard boat that EVERYONE seems to have up here.

[Mitchie]

Theres a big difference between an Allison and a Tuff. One is made for BIG water, one isnt

You beat me too it Mr. Saris. No allison will run with a Tuff in the Rough... And the Gransport will be in pieces when the Tuff is cruising home in the same condition it left.
I love My Triad... But i'm not gonna even compare the two.(or any of the other boats in this thread). Totally different hulls for totally different things.

[Mitchie]

What do I know about big water...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/577405_412943198729157_694598492_n.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/424587_458382557518554_1763612463_n.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/_DSC0021.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/_DSC0027_zps3fe78a58.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/fastfun2/_DSC0030_zpsfd1ef010.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yr1Z_F4tcc

For the win!!!!!!!!! :)

[vnemous]

And isn't the rough rule of thumb that it takes about 10hp to go 1mph faster?

Here is a good weight comparison. My 1977 Challenger went a best of 80 with my 250efi. My Superboat with the exact same engine, setback, height and prop went a best of 88. Now the bottoms are similar if not exact so its all about the weight.

[vnemous]

Junior is that last picture when the helicopter with the cables dropped you:D

[Superbender]

270482
who could forget my u boat training days
http://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=201821&thumb=1&d=1324851342

hot toddy
http://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=202227&thumb=1&d=1324851442

http://www.screamandfly.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=201812&thumb=1&d=1324851342

[vnemous]

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KvOG8qJmkwc" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[Greg G]

I vote Tuff then Uncle Mikey :D

fast fun, what is the rough weight of a 496HO and Bravo drive would you say? Does 1200lbs sound about right?

[Jamescole]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KvOG8qJmkwc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Looks slow....

[vnemous]

Looks slow....

you know I was gonna respond to that but nah

[DoktorC]

you know I was gonna respond to that but nah

Too late I saw the first version....


here's a vid of the old version of his "tub"....still need's a wide angle lens to capture all the setback lol

http://vimeo.com/41675248

[Superbender]

James I can tell you mike is definitely haulin the mail every time I pass him,Blah ha ha

[baja200merk]

Whos got the fastest yamaha powered SOB and whats the speed? I mean second fastest under superbender of course :D

[vnemous]

[QUOTE=DoktorC;2421804]Too late I saw the first version....
QUOTE]

Yeah well my temper is short now adaysD

[DoktorC]

[QUOTE=DoktorC;2421804]Too late I saw the first version....
QUOTE]

Yeah well my temper is short now adaysD

Seriously, we are ALL just having fun with this....so don't take us too seriously lol.

[Superbender]

Whos got the fastest yamaha powered SOB and whats the speed? I mean second fastest under superbender of course :D
I will be the slowest and thats ok,but who is the fastest gotta be tres,then gm250.wait till greg learns how to drive he might give Tres a run.but by no means are we as fast as mikeylarge

[DoktorC]

Whos got the fastest yamaha powered SOB and whats the speed? I mean second fastest under superbender of course :D

Ummm...the yellow Tuff ran 92 with a stock 300hpdi and was limited by water pressure...

[Greg G]

This is funny that is not a production Lamination. lol Carbon Kevlar..lol
100% Hydrox Resinand HydropelGel
100% Stichmat
100% Balsa core Bottom 5/8, sides and deck 3/8
100% Vacuum Bagged
100% Russian Birch transom, knees and stingers
100% Perimeter glassed.

Carbon, Kevlar and Infusion laminates available.



RobF may have some input on whether or not this is exotic or production

[TooStroked]

As the proud owner of one of the "top five" fastest SOBs mentioned in this thread, let me add one personal opinion. As much as I love my Progression 22, I have to say that the Tuff 21 is absolutley drop dead gorgeous in every way. Great lines. Great construction. Great performance. And from everything I've heard, that great performance is in rough water or calm. That's saying something.

[vnemous]

James I can tell you mike is definitely haulin the mail every time I pass him,Blah ha ha

Thanks Eric:D

[Mitchie]

I don't think he will beat it... But Jamescole will probably run close to 90mph this year i fear. But it will run as well in the rough as his old vector...lol.

I love this thread. It makes me wanna get my cousin to sell me his old challenger.... and Re build it... and by that I mean... M.R.S. rebuilds it.. lol.

This is the boat that made me fall in love with fast boats.
http://i51.tinypic.com/312v1pv.jpg

[Mitchie]

RobF may have some input on whether or not this is exotic or production

It IS exotic... We have been saying this the whole time. It's for real dude.

[Greg G]

You love this thread? You might want to take a look at post 518

[dnelson964]

I will be the slowest and thats ok,but who is the fastest gotta be tres,then gm250.wait till greg learns how to drive he might give Tres a run.but by no means are we as fast as mikeylarge

Eric we should not give out too much , better to let all the non Gray motor folk find out just how slow we all are in the spring.

[Greg G]

Just a correction on my confirmed top speed as posted it was 94 not 95 would not want to be called a liar

You will notice that I updated the data to reflect 94 ;) For some reason you are the only Progression 22 owner to post up a GPS speed .......awesome!

[Mitchie]

Some new info just in on the Nordic Crossfire 21...........and a photo of an I/O to get a good look at the hull

"We have a 21 Nordic with a foam and glass interior, with an optimax 300. Ross said it was a "medium" lay up. Not quiet that fast with a skier.... we've hit 77 which is plenty for marathons. Have hit 86 with out a skier. The hull seems to like a 4 blade. The lay up on these will be all glass, the race boats use a mix of carbon fiber. Our Crossfire 21 was the 1st outboard rigged, we went a bit heavier for the ocean. We've been told anywhere between $50k and $80k depending on options, lay up motors, ect... everything at Nordic is custom built for your boat. its a pretty amazing set up they got over there. Just last week I had it out in 8 foot seas. (not the funnest skiing) and it holds up well. We have had no issues with the boat at all, and i used it every weekend in the ocean except 3 or 4 the past two seasons feb through October. takes a whole 20 minutes to clean and flush the motor when we're done."


What am I missing here? The hot chick with the tattoo is cool. It goes 86mph! Is this thread not about the "fastest"? I believe that the Tuff can roll in the rough with ANY 21 foot boat.... And then smoke it!

[Greg G]

The Sutphen really doesnt belong there either. Its an AWESOME boat, no doubt..just different


Not sure I understand. The Sutphen is a SOB 21, and you can buy one new. It's a solid rough water performer and has a lot of history behind it. Does it not belong because it is slow?

[mikeylarge]

I will be the slowest and thats ok,but who is the fastest gotta be tres,then gm250.wait till greg learns how to drive he might give Tres a run.but by no means are we as fast as mikeylarge I bet a can of Mercury Phantom Black could do wonders with your speed runs...

[CrazyHippy]

What am I missing here? The hot chick with the tattoo is cool. It goes 86mph! Is this thread not about the "fastest"? I believe that the Tuff can roll in the rough with ANY 21 foot boat.... And then smoke it!

86 set up to ski... no one has ever put half a mile of setback on one, jacked the motor to the moon and run a 30" prop.

Take any of these 90mph boats and try to pull a skier up as they sit. Let me know if the skier drowns :leaving:

[Superbender]

Eric we should not give out too much , better to let all the non Gray motor folk find out just how slow we all are in the spring.
I hear you doc,now when are we going to Canada to pick up our new boats,opps I said too much again
Crazy hippie I spin my pro et 30 every sunday pulling skies and a tube with 12 inches of set back.please note there is no hydrolic jack on my boat

[Mitchie]

86 set up to ski... no one has ever put half a mile of setback on one, jacked the motor to the moon and run a 30" prop.

Take any of these 90mph boats and try to pull a skier up as they sit. Let me know if the skier drowns :leaving:

Seriously???? My Triad .. Set to kill(jacked to the moon) with a 32 cleaver would pull up rosie o'donnell and rikki lake on a double tube... You guys are blinded by the California sun....

The thing about the Tuff... is the fastest one now has very little set back... And the ballast tank... It runs like a monster in the calm and the rough.

[Greg G]

Some additional shots of the Sutphen 21 ...........I kind of like the looks. It is mostly old school with the fairing, but with some rounded edges. I guess the rear hatch is a little large to allow you to store some gear. I might have made it a little smaller to give more co_kpit room

[dnelson964]

I hear you doc,now when are we going to Canada to pick up our new boats,opps I said too much again

You should already be packed ! LOL

But remember it's just expensive new 'wax' were bringing home that only Yami guys can buy and your boat comes out shinier then a Mikeylarge job like 'smoke and mirrors' ! :D

[Mitchie]

I hear you doc,now when are we going to Canada to pick up our new boats,opps I said too much again

You guys are all welcome to stay here.... Bring your motors and we can run in Georgian bay to test out your new toys.. lol.

[CrazyHippy]

Seriously???? My Triad .. Set to kill(jacked to the moon) with a 32 cleaver would pull up rosie o'donnell and rikki lake on a double tube... You guys are blinded by the California sun....

Tube is one thing. Try a skier. Deep water, single ski.

Until that ski is on top of the water, it might as well be a parachute.

BTW, no california sun worries here;)

[Mitchie]

Tube is one thing. Try a skier. Deep water, single ski.

Until that ski is on top of the water, it might as well be a parachute.

BTW, no california sun worries here;)

lol.... Sorry... Arizona desert mirages... :)

I really thing you would be shocked by this boat.

[Greg G]

Seriously???? My Triad .. Set to kill(jacked to the moon) with a 32 cleaver would pull up rosie o'donnell and rikki lake on a double tube... You guys are blinded by the California sun....

The thing about the Tuff... is the fastest one now has very little set back... And the ballast tank... It runs like a monster in the calm and the rough.

Mitchie, Triad and a Tube ...........pleez. Love the Tuff but you may not want to wonder off and spar with guys that ski big water Marathon's each weekend. Lets get the thread back on track.

[dnelson964]

Mitchie, Triad and a Tube ...........pleez. Love the Tuff but you may not want to wonder off and spar with guys that ski big water Marathon's each weekend. Lets get the thread back on track.


There are actually a couple 21' Superboats that I know running skiers out in so. cal to Catalina island.

[Mitchie]

Mitchie, Triad and a Tube ...........pleez. Love the Tuff but you may not want to wonder off and spar with guys that ski big water Marathon's each weekend. Lets get the thread back on track.


Mr.G... Are you blind to humor????? Geez .. Tough crowd.

Please don't patronize me. I am very rarely anyone's fool. But I will always eat sh!t when I'm wrong.

[fast fun 2]

Junior is that last picture when the helicopter with the cables dropped you:D
They snapped :D

Greg, thats about what I would say for a 496 maybe closer to 1500 but in there

[Greg G]

Mr.G... Are you blind to humor????? Geez .. Tough crowd.

Please don't patronize me. I am very rarely anyone's fool. But I will always eat sh!t when I'm wrong.

My intention wasn't to patronize, sorry if you felt that way. I did not know you were a Marathon ski racer like Hippy.

[Greg G]

They snapped :D

Greg, thats about what I would say for a 496 maybe closer to 1500 but in there

Thanks fast.......was not sure on the total weight.

[DoktorC]

Mr.G... Are you blind to humor????? Geez .. Tough crowd.

Please don't patronize me. I am very rarely anyone's fool. But I will always eat sh!t when I'm wrong.

Deep breath Mitch...not everyone has the torque that we're used to.....remember: enough to tear a hole.........in time.

But ya....this isn't about who can pull what....I hear dnelson has that title wrapped up towing the merc's home (which are MUCH heavier than a deep water starting mother-inlaw)...

The Tuff may not be a production boat...but it is a pleasure boat. It's not a balls out race boat so we're doing a little apples and oranges when comparing it to the Berilco...both are excellent examples of a fast 21. The Sutphen doesn't belong because its not fast....

[hoser]

The Fast Five ..............Tuff, Bernico, Progression, Nordic, Sutphen

I still don't know way no superboats on this list ? I know of at least 2 in the mid to up 90s and one that can run with a tuff 21

[Greg G]

Not sure I understand. The Sutphen is a SOB 21, and you can buy one new. It's a solid rough water performer and has a lot of history behind it. Does it not belong because it is slow?

Now I have myself thinking with fast fun's input on a 496HO/Bravo weight of 1500lbs. The Sutphen 21 did 83 with the 496 in demo's I believe. I wonder if there is a magic abacus that could tell us what the Sutphen might do if you pulled out the weight of the 496HO (425HP) and added the weight of a 300XS. Hmmmmmm

[Greg G]

I still don't know way no superboats on this list ? I know of at least 2 in the mid to up 90s and one that can run with a tuff 21

Hoser, you are on the list with your Super


Fastest SOB Hulls Available For Purchase New In 2013....

#1 Tuff 21 hull 950lbs (Update890lb Kevlar) –20’8” Long, 7’7”Beam (Confirmed 102.5MPH Driver Blake Sewell)
#2 Progression 22hull 948lbs – 22’1” Long, 7’8” Beam (Confirmed 94MPH Driver goneby)
#3 Bernico F2 21hull 705lbs (Update550lbs Race s3000) –21’4” Long, 6’3” Beam (Confirmed 103.02MPH Driver Bob McCarthy - 90MPH Stock)
#4 NordicCrossfire 21 hull N/A– 21’ Long, 7’1” Beam (New Data 86MPH Driver Unknown)
#5 Sutphen 21 SS hull N/A –20’9” Long, 7’2” Beam (No Data)

And of the no longer produced hulls....

#1 1986 Superboat 21 Classic (Confirmed 97MPH Driver hoser)
#2 Intimidator 21 (No Data)

[Mitchie]

My intention wasn't to patronize, sorry if you felt that way. I did not know you were a Marathon ski racer like Hippy.

Obviously you are in love with west coast boats.... As you have owned them. But I really do not know how this turned into "the fastest 21 S.O.B. that if they were not pulling a skier and were set up for top speed would be the fastest 21 S.O.B." And you are proving again that you are attempting to patronize me... And I am doing the same. So you are right. Back on track.

[Superbender]

I bet if I waved a large sum of money in front of John at Superboat he would build me a one off new boat,so why not be included,this really all a bunch of winter banter any how with no real meaning.not that I am saying I would do this because it would be silly of me to own three boat really.
Greg g please remove disclaimer of NO LONGER PRODUCED ANYMORE:p

[fast fun 2]

Now I have myself thinking with fast fun's input on a 496HO/Bravo weight of 1500lbs. The Sutphen 21 did 83 with the 496 in demo's I believe. I wonder if there is a magic abacus that could tell us what the Sutphen might do if you pulled out the weight of the 496HO (425HP) and added the weight of a 300XS. Hmmmmmm
I must have missed your above post.
I dont remember the Sutphen running that fast with a 496...I do remember it running 80s with a 525.
Its not that its slow, just not a light weight wave jumper like the rest.
I also think Superboat should be included

[Jamescole]

I don't think he will beat it... But Jamescole will probably run close to 90mph this year i fear. But it will run as well in the rough as his old vector...lol.




Oh I don't know mitchie...

[David]

How can the Bernico be strong if it is so light? Is it made of unobtainium? 550 lb seems pretty light for offshore duty, but I've never seen a Bernico or raced offshore, so it's just a question.

I've seen a few Tuffs run and driven one briefly. A Tuff could pull a slalom skiier easily.

[RBT]

Walkers point marina up here, around the corner from me sells and stocks the sutphen, they have a 525 boat in stock...... Is isn't fast. My sea ray beat it!
What Blake did to it with his tuff was a brutal reality check. Nice boats though, just not in the league speed wise as any of the boats mentioned in this thread.

[DoktorC]

I don't know...

Finally something we can agree on! :)

[87starflite]

Dam does that thing always run that sloppy? Seen 100 mph intimidators and supers run straight and level. Looks very flighty

[baja200merk]

looks to me like he's having fun with the trim button. That button is fun and looks cool until it makes a 90* turn out of no where.

[DoktorC]

Dam does that thing always run that sloppy? Seen 100 mph intimidators and supers run straight and level. Looks very flighty

I guess we need to see starflite's video as well lol

[berzerko]

30" of set back your boat would run like flipper too LOL
greg, mark at activator/ rage wouldn't they build a new 21?

Here's a link to Keith running his activator pretty snotty and dam fast
hope you don't mind me posting doc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3S08L6cgcY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Superbender]

When I look at that video of James it reminds me of when docNelson used to run a t1 on his activator,thank god he sold that prop hehe

[Mitchie]

looks to me like he's having fun with the trim button. That button is fun and looks cool until it makes a 90* turn out of no where.

Jamescole LOVES the up button... It is terrifying to watch. I have watched him and been completely certain that he is about to go over. More than on.ce

[87starflite]

30" of set back your boat would run like flipper too LOL
greg, mark at activator/ rage wouldn't they build a new 21?

Here's a link to Keith running his activator pretty snotty and dam fast
hope you don't mind me posting doc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3S08L6cgcY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
why does that boat need 30" of setback? lol

I dont have any video of my boat running balls out. i have all videos of cruising. i have a bunch of pictures.

My current setup is a 12 inch of setback with a merc 250 efi on a 20" offshore mid with alien cowl and coned 1.75 lower. Boat will run 82 anyday of the week and i can take my hands off the wheel at speed. Runs flat and straight as an arrow. no secrets to hide here. boat has more left in it but i dont care to go crazy playing with it nor spending more money to get there at this point lol

[RobF]

Hoser, you are on the list with your Super


Fastest SOB Hulls Available For Purchase New In 2013....

#1 Tuff 21 hull 950lbs (Update890lb Kevlar) –20’8” Long, 7’7”Beam (Confirmed 102.5MPH Driver Blake Sewell)
#2 Progression 22hull 948lbs – 22’1” Long, 7’8” Beam (Confirmed 94MPH Driver goneby)
#3 Bernico F2 21hull 705lbs (Update550lbs Race s3000) –21’4” Long, 6’3” Beam (Confirmed 103.02MPH Driver Bob McCarthy - 90MPH Stock)
#4 NordicCrossfire 21 hull N/A– 21’ Long, 7’1” Beam (New Data 86MPH Driver Unknown)
#5 Sutphen 21 SS hull N/A –20’9” Long, 7’2” Beam (No Data)

And of the no longer produced hulls....

#1 1986 Superboat 21 Classic (Confirmed 97MPH Driver hoser)
#2 Intimidator 21 (No Data)


I bet if I waved a large sum of money in front of John at Superboat he would build me a one off new boat,so why not be included,this really all a bunch of winter banter any how with no real meaning.not that I am saying I would do this because it would be silly of me to own three boat really.
Greg g please remove disclaimer of NO LONGER PRODUCED ANYMORE:p

Was about to say any paying customer can have a new 21 super, intimidator, activator, progression built for them with whatver materials and ballasts tanks they want. Might sound like a broken record but if not for the sucess of these boats the others would not have followed. I live and work on Long Island so I tip my hat to those who paved the way and its nice that the designs stand the test of timeand people try to improve on them.

[Superbender]

I must have missed your above post.
I dont remember the Sutphen running that fast with a 496...I do remember it running 80s with a 525.
Its not that its slow, just not a light weight wave jumper like the rest.
I also think Superboat should be included

There was a new 21 sutphen with a big block at the CTRR a couple of years ago I ran next to him for a while 83 was the number and he had a couple of people in the boat think there was 3 in it.Some one mentioned it had a 525.

[berzerko]

mikeylarge this is somthing to watch better work on your setup
I give Mikey credit he's gotta have some thick skin, plenty of abuse

[Superbender]

Mikey is good people,and can dish it as well as take it.to bad he hangs out with that George guy

[87starflite]

Mikey is good people,and can dish it as well as take it.to bad he hangs out with that George guy
Just remember bald is beautiful

[Jamescole]

why does that boat need 30" of setback? lol

I dont have any video of my boat running balls out. i have all videos of cruising. i have a bunch of pictures.

My current setup is a 12 inch of setback with a merc 250 efi on a 20" offshore mid with alien cowl and coned 1.75 lower. Boat will run 82 anyday of the week and i can take my hands off the wheel at speed. Runs flat and straight as an arrow. no secrets to hide here. boat has more left in it but i dont care to go crazy playing with it nor spending more money to get there at this point lol


My boat is set up for top speed .. That video I'm running a 28 pro et . A little trim happy aswell. And it's only 22 " of setback

[87starflite]

I also run a 28 pro et. Whats your top speed?

[Jamescole]

I also run a 28 pro et. Whats your top speed?

With that prop 83.3 at 6600 rpm

[Superbender]

Ok my ox66 used to run 6300/6400 pro et 30.do the math

[87starflite]

With that prop 83.3 at 6600 rpm
Your slip numbers are very high. Have your tried the 30? I run 82 at 6000 with the 28. I need to get my hands on a 30 this sumer and see how it runs

[Greg G]

There was a new 21 Sutphen with a big block at the CT River Run a couple of years ago. I ran next to him for a while 83 was the number and he had a couple of people in the boat think there was 3 in it. Some one mentioned it had a 525.

Interesting Superbender. Here is some data on the new Sutphen 21. Agree that this info is second hand but I really wonder what this boat would do with a 300XS and proper set up. Should be in the mid 80's I would think? I can't comment intelligently on whether or not the 71, 83, 93 speeds stated below properly align to those motors, but Sutphen is not known to BS.


We got a new addition to the fleet. Morgan from Sutphen dropped off this little 21 a few weeks back and man, it works so well! It's got a 350mag MPI/Bravo spinning a labbed 27 Mirage Plus to 71.6 on gps. No chine walk, no porpoise, no bad habits, just a simple boat that does so many things so well. Interior by PPI, glass work absolutely perfect. If you are looking for a smaller boat that runs hard, you owe it to yourself to check one out!


<tbody>
Are you SURE it runs an honest 85 with a 496?


</tbody>
The fastest the boat ran was 86mph. I've been on it at 83mph and drove it at 80.


Yes, this is the 525 boat. The boat did 90-91 without any real prop testing. The tabs are there for a few reasons. It is more stern heavy with this power plant, and at these speeds, its nice to have the tabs. Rich and the customer agreed to use the best hardware possible. Rich Jr. has it dialed in at 93.4 MPH

[Jamescole]

Your slip numbers are very high. Have your tried the 30? I run 82 at 6000 with the 28. I need to get my hands on a 30 this sumer and see how it runs

There was good solid issues with the hydro dynamics of my old ox66 coned case. But that particular motor and setup was good. And even with high slip numbers it ran hard..

now i'm running around 7-12 % with a hpdi case.

[vnemous]

mine runs 88 at 5800 rpms with a 30 pro et. I believe cause its so stable and Im an excellent driver it may look slow to the untrained eye:D

[Greg G]

It says 87.6 so far.............

[vnemous]

never updated cause my daughter did my sig.

[hoser]

mine runs 88 at 5800 rpms with a 30 pro et. I believe cause its so stable and Im an excellent driver it may look slow to the untrained eye:D

Thats moving with a stock 250. I may have to turn up the horse power screw a bit :thumbsup:

[goneby]

Does anyone know the dead rise on the Sutphen,I think its pretty shallow want to say 19 degree ?? Might pound in rough water.Correct me if Im wrong.

[dnelson964]

What's a "pro et" ? is that a type of soup spoon? :rolleyes:

[Greg G]

I love data ...........someone will know

[vnemous]

What's a "pro et" ? is that a type of soup spoon? :rolleyes:

Looks like Im gonna have to open a "can" :D see you guys in the spring

[dnelson964]

I love data ...........someone will know


Interesting....the Sutphen hull has only 'one', not two lifting strakes as the Super, Challenger, activator and tuff designs.

[Greg G]

Does anyone know the dead rise on the Sutphen,I think its pretty shallow want to say 19 degree ?? Might pound in rough water.Correct me if Im wrong.

Anyone know what is the deadrise on the Tuff 21?

[dnelson964]

Tuff I believe retained the 21 degree deadrise as was on the Challenger.

[Superbender]

Just a little observation all these boats run 1.75 ratio
James c running a 28 pro et 6600 @83mph 3.1 yammie
vnenomous 30 pro et @5800 88mph3.0l merc
87starflight 28 pro et@6000 82mph 3.0l merc
superbender30pro et@6200 88mph 3.1 yammie
tres 30 bravo worked @5700 faster then me no gps #3.3 yammie
Doc nelson some funckey azz wheel 5900 84mph 3.1 yammie
gm 250 30 pro et 5700 85mph and climbing 3.3 yammie
goneby 30pro et 6300 rpms 94mph 3.2 xs merc
Hydropimp bravo 30 5700.84mph 3.3 l yammie
MikeyLarge 30 blaster 6200 88mph 3.0l merc
man I suck
Mike this is almost a pro et
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af275/superbender/20121021_192323.jpg

[goneby]

Has anyone heard anything about the new 21 Hustler?

[Jamescole]

Just a little observation all these boats run 1.75 ratio
James c running a 28 pro et 6600 @83mph
vnenomous 30 pro et @5800 88mph
87starflight 28 pro et@6000 82mph
superbender30pro et@6300 88mph
tres 30 bravo worked @5700 faster then me no gps #
Doc nelson some funckey azz wheel 5900 84mph
gm 250 30 pro et 5700 85mph and climbing
goneby 30pro et not sure of rpms 94mph
man I suck



Alot of pro et's up on that board.. Interesting to compare it all.

[vnemous]

Eric thats a pro e..I had a 27 trophy that did that and it still ran 76 on my challenger with no vibration at all. I like the spare prop holder you have in your bilge. Gives me an idea to put a mount on my tie bar bracket....hmmmm thanks

[dnelson964]

I was running this funckey azz wheal because I heard a 2 blade is faster then a 3 or 4 but hummm Don't know what the vibration is about. :eek:

http://i48.tinypic.com/4rdrgp.jpg

[goneby]

Just a little observation all these boats run 1.75 ratio
James c running a 28 pro et 6600 @83mph
vnenomous 30 pro et @5800 88mph
87starflight 28 pro et@6000 82mph
superbender30pro et@6300 88mph
tres 30 bravo worked @5700 faster then me no gps #
Doc nelson some funckey azz wheel 5900 84mph
gm 250 30 pro et 5700 85mph and climbing
goneby 30pro et not sure of rpms 94mph
man I suck
Mike this is almost a pro et
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af275/superbender/20121021_192323.jpg
6300 RPM,to bad most Pro ETs end up looking like that.

[Greg G]

This thread has provided anyone looking to buy a 21 SOB with a ton of information. Thanks to all and keep it coming. It already has over 17,000 views and I believe it is already in the top ten most viewed on the site. Will be a top five no doubt. If someone walked in and wanted a short course on what rough water 21's V's are out there, they could learn a lot just by reading this.

And a 21 V pic for fun .............

[goneby]

I found the PROet to be the best running Prop for speed and carrying the boat,but they dont last very long,Im sure a lot of you will agree. But BBlades came out with a new prop that is very similar.I ran one one time saw same speed at less rpm so I would say it has potential.I believe its called a blaster

[schiadart]

This thread has provided anyone looking to buy a 21 SOB with a ton of information. Thanks to all and keep it coming. It already has over 17,000 views and I believe it is already in the top ten most viewed on the site. Will be a top five no doubt. If someone walked in and wanted a short course on what rough water 21's V's are out there, they could learn a lot just by reading this.

And a 21 V pic for fun .............

Mr Walker one bad ass boat

[goneby]

Mr Walker one bad ass boat
Did I mention my boat is listed in the Buy and Sell section of S+F.

[Jamescole]

I was running this funckey azz wheal because I heard a 2 blade is faster then a 3 or 4 but hummm Don't know what the vibration is about. :eek:

http://i48.tinypic.com/4rdrgp.jpg



looks like throwing blades is a good pass time.....

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m533/OneCycle/IMG_0508.jpg

[Donat]

[QUOTE=Superbender;2421995]Just a little observation all these boats run 1.75 ratio
James c running a 28 pro et 6600 @83mph
vnenomous 30 pro et @5800 88mph
87starflight 28 pro et@6000 82mph
superbender30pro et@6300 88mph
tres 30 bravo worked @5700 faster then me no gps #
Doc nelson some funckey azz wheel 5900 84mph
gm 250 30 pro et 5700 85mph and climbing
goneby 30pro et 6300 rpms 94mph
Hydropimp bravo 30 5700.84mph
QUOTE]
I think this post is great info just missing weights of the boats

[goneby]

[QUOTE=Superbender;2421995]Just a little observation all these boats run 1.75 ratio
James c running a 28 pro et 6600 @83mph
vnenomous 30 pro et @5800 88mph
87starflight 28 pro et@6000 82mph
superbender30pro et@6300 88mph
tres 30 bravo worked @5700 faster then me no gps #
Doc nelson some funckey azz wheel 5900 84mph
gm 250 30 pro et 5700 85mph and climbing
goneby 30pro et 6300 rpms 94mph
Hydropimp bravo 30 5700.84mph
QUOTE]
I think this post is great info just missing weights of the boats
Weights are posted at#625

[Donat]

[QUOTE=Donat;2422019]
Weights are posted at#625

I ment actual weight of the boats not the book info:cheers:

[fast fun 2]

There was a new 21 sutphen with a big block at the CTRR a couple of years ago I ran next to him for a while 83 was the number and he had a couple of people in the boat think there was 3 in it.Some one mentioned it had a 525.
Yep the blue boat. 525 was mid 80s. 525 in a 21 Challenger is high 90s

[Greg G]

Yep the blue boat. 525 was mid 80s. 525 in a 21 Challenger is high 90s

Something does not line up. Sutphen says the 21 with a Merc 525 clocked 93.4 MPH

[goneby]

Back to your question 302Sport ! I would have to say 24' Progression or 24' Superboat :thumbsup:

I own a 24' SB mine is a 496 I/O runs 72 to 75 MPH and is great in slop ! I'm sure some here will agree with that !

On flat water it's not as fast, lucky to see 71 MPH but in 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 foot chop 75 MPH and a great ride :thumbsup:

I have run with a 24' Progression 300 OB much faster then my boat and was running great in slop !

I will agree with everyone, all the 21's and 22's with a 250 or 300 OB are very fast ! Very good looking boats as well !

Buy a boat that will suit all your needs :)

I wish you good luck with any boat you purchase and I hope we can go for a run :thumbsup:


Good point Steve, Progression builds the 24 a couple of different ways also,24 high deck,big cabin,or 24 low deck open dash with seats in cabin or crawl up like the 22.

[dnelson964]

Back to your question 302Sport ! I would have to say 24' Progression or 24' Superboat :thumbsup:

I own a 24' SB mine is a 496 I/O runs 72 to 75 MPH and is great in slop ! I'm sure some here will agree with that !

On flat water it's not as fast, lucky to see 71 MPH but in 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 foot chop 75 MPH and a great ride :thumbsup:

I have run with a 24' Progression 300 OB much faster then my boat and was running great in slop !

I will agree with everyone, all the 21's and 22's with a 250 or 300 OB are very fast ! Very good looking boats as well !

Buy a boat that will suit all your needs :)

I wish you good luck with any boat you purchase and I hope we can go for a run :thumbsup:



Great summation by Superboat Steve and his boat runs great in the rough ! Just watch some of my videos. Steve has the last 24 hull built and with some bottom step update I believe ?

My Activator can run 81 w/ 2 people and 3/4 tank in 1'-1' 1/2" actually comfortably with only 3 mph difference (84) from running light which impresses me. Keep in mind my pad is only 5.5" wide, challengers and supers are 6" and progressions are 7" which might effect rough waters running only slightly. It's all a give and take.

For bigger waters I would go to a 24'.

[Mitchie]

[QUOTE=Greg G;2422072]Something does not line up. Sutphen says the 21 with a Merc 525 clocked 93.4 MPH[/QUOTE

Continuing on with My Tuff love... The Tuff 28 with a single 525 ran 95.5mph.. AND would drive circles around all of these boats in the rough! :)

Was there not a blue Challenger 21 in the long island area with a crazy inboard running in the 110mph range?

[Mitchie]

Great summation by Superboat Steve and his boat runs great in the rough ! Just watch some of my videos. Steve has the last 24 hull built and with some bottom step update I believe ?

My Activator can run 81 w/ 2 people and 3/4 tank in 1'-1' 1/2" actually comfortably with only 3 mph difference (84) from running light which impresses me.


I have often times admired pictures of his 24'.... Damn beautiful boat!

[vnemous]

The blue challenger belongs to Anthony of WazzUp Racing and its in South Jersey. They are putting a new motor in it this year I believe it is 900+ hp replacing the 700 hp motor in it.

[berzerko]

[QUOTE=Greg G;2422072]Something does not line up. Sutphen says the 21 with a Merc 525 clocked 93.4 MPH[/QUOTE

Continuing on with My Tuff love... The Tuff 28 with a single 525 ran 95.5mph.. AND would drive circles around all of these boats in the rough! :)

Was there not a blue Challenger 21 in the long island area with a crazy inboard running in the 110mph range?

Jersey boys will know more about him, dont think there are any confirmed #'s, think the guy is an engine builder and last i read was going twin turbo or something like that

Bender where's Mikey large on that list

[Mitchie]

The blue challenger belongs to Anthony of WazzUp Racing and its in South Jersey. They are putting a new motor in it this year I believe it is 900+ hp replacing the 700 hp motor in it.


That thing must be an absolute beast... WOW!

[mrpenguin]

The sad part is that Superboat really is out of conversation today simply because they dont make those boats anymore. I am sure that you could wave a ton of money at the owner as stated to get him to build you a new one but then again I am sure that Skater and MTI will also build you a 21 SOB if you do the same thing. I bet you could even get Mr. Linder to build you a 2013 Challenger 21ft with enough money. I thought that I read that the molds for Superboat for the 21/24 are in bad shape and would need to be redone?

From the continued pages here, I would love to see an Intimidator with a ballast tank and 15inch 300X. I am sure that it would be right next to Tuff. It seems like the design for Tuff is not really the magic ticket but instead the light weight/strong construction and set up.

[Mitchie]

The sad part is that Superboat really is out of conversation today simply because they dont make those boats anymore. I am sure that you could wave a ton of money at the owner as stated to get him to build you a new one but then again I am sure that Skater and MTI will also build you a 21 SOB if you do the same thing. I bet you could even get Mr. Linder to build you a 2013 Challenger 21ft with enough money. I thought that I read that the molds for Superboat for the 21/24 are in bad shape and would need to be redone?

From the continued pages here, I would love to see an Intimidator with a ballast tank and 15inch 300X. I am sure that it would be right next to Tuff. It seems like the design for Tuff is not really the magic ticket but instead the light weight/strong construction and set up.

I am pretty confident that the bottom design allows the Tuff to air out quick and at lower speeds. I am also pretty confident that the intimidator is a super solid performer and has proven it's crazy high speed and offshore abilities. The intimidators are also bad ass and classic looking.... The shadow deck with no windshield looks really really good. BUT......
They are NOT even close to the Tuff as far as craftsmanship and materials. As has been stated in previous threads by RBT.. "you could not even buy the materials in a Tuff for the cost of an intimidator."

[mrpenguin]

They are NOT even close to the Tuff as far as craftsmanship and materials. As has been stated in previous threads by RBT.. "you could not even buy the materials in a Tuff for the cost of an intimidator."

I understand that Tuff is made with the latest and greatest technology but we as stated you can have anyone build you any boat with whatever materials you want with enough money. Tuff is just at the top of the budget.

[Mitchie]

I understand that Tuff is made with the latest and greatest technology but we as stated you can have anyone build you any boat with whatever materials you want with enough money. Tuff is just at the top of the budget.

I think you are discounting the importance of the builder himself. I know nothing of who builds intimidators.... But I have seen Weigl's work and he is an artist who takes great care and pride in his craft, every step of the way.

[Brabender]

Mr p what you are missing is that the only boats that ran over 100 all have one thing in common.

They were light.

The tuff and the Bernico because of the construction will produce the strongest
lightest and most consistent hulls, vs conventional layup

Superbenders boat is a good example. Can never be the fastest period
same boat as Hosers, but not.... I would run it in the ocean against any of the
newer boats and be confident in its ability to stay together. It would have a strong chance
winning too.... But would never ever be the the fastest in the flats.
Same thing with the intimidator. Even with the 300x tucked under a 250 cowl
the white one never came close to running the numbers the red one did.


All of the mentioned hulls have the potential to be the fastest with the right
combination. But it must be super light...

[mrpenguin]

Superboat has a few boat that have broken 100mph and have lived just fine without having them fall apart or have the bottom rip off. I completely understand that Tuff is built with the best material but there are a couple of 21 Superboats from 20 years ago that run 100+mph that cost 1/5 the price. These boats did not fall apart and still run around today even with a very light layup.

My point is that just because it is expensive does not mean it does anything that has not been done before. I understand the tradeoff with these older conventional designs as you either got potato chip thin and fast or heavy but great offshore. I am just not sold as I and the majority here have never seen a Tuff or Bern or Ollie in person nor ran it offshore. With an open checkbook like you need for these boats I think you could duplicate the results.

[Mitchie]

Which supers are over 100mph? I am aware that the old school boats stay together... and really are a great value. But if you could have any .... What would you pick?

[Brabender]

Good luck finding one that does that for 1/5 the price
Everyone knows which ones are "special"
They aren't cheap either, even if you rebuild one to get it to as new condition
you will be shocked how much the difference is when you add all the bills, and elbow
grease up....

Then what do you have .... A nice used fixed up boat that is still
30 years old....... Not saying there is anything wrong with that, hell I love a good
project.
But please stop talkin nonsense..... New is new. Getting one of these boats to go fast is expensive...period

[Mitchie]

Good luck finding one that does that for 1/5 the price
Everyone knows which ones are "special"
They aren't cheap either, even if you rebuild one to get it to as new condition
you will be shocked how much the difference is when you add all the bills, and elbow
grease up....

Then what do you have .... A nice used fixed up boat that is still
30 years old....... Not saying there is anything wrong with that, hell I love a good
project.
But please stop talkin nonsense..... New is new. Getting one of these boats to go fast is expensive...period


You are very good at the internets Mr. Brabender. Well said.

[tux974]

Good luck finding one that does that for 1/5 the price
Everyone knows which ones are "special"
They aren't cheap either, even if you rebuild one to get it to as new condition
you will be shocked how much the difference is when you add all the bills, and elbow
grease up....

Then what do you have .... A nice used fixed up boat that is still
30 years old....... Not saying there is anything wrong with that, hell I love a good
project.
But please stop talkin nonsense..... New is new. Getting one of these boats to go fast is expensive...period

Amen!!!
Spoken by a person that has the knowledge and been doing this for a very long time!! Like having just any builder build you a boat because you wave tons of $$$, please wake up.
IMPO, There is only one company that would probably have the potential, that is Progression!
Chris, well put!!!! :thumbsup:

[mrpenguin]

Those "special" 21 Superboats from 30 years ago are still around and did not use the state of the art materials and building materials while breaking 100mph. I am sure those boats where not $65k new taking into account for inflation.

As stated, you could have Progression build you an open checkbook P22 to do what the Tuff does. Also we are holding these new boats to be state of art and "the best" without most people having even looked at one in person. I am just not sold yet to say that are the best.

[RBT]

The Tuff isn't super light, the black boat with the 300x is a tank. It is HUNDREDS of pounds heavier than the 300xs powers boat, the bottom of the tuff has a wider pad that is a different shape, the strikes are different and the notch is different. This is where the speed is, not the weight, while it certainly helps I am going to say it is more to do with the bottom.

[mrpenguin]

Good luck finding one that does that for 1/5 the price
Everyone knows which ones are "special"
They aren't cheap either, even if you rebuild one to get it to as new condition
you will be shocked how much the difference is when you add all the bills, and elbow
grease up....

Then what do you have .... A nice used fixed up boat that is still
30 years old....... Not saying there is anything wrong with that, hell I love a good
project.
But please stop talkin nonsense..... New is new. Getting one of these boats to go fast is expensive...period

Several pages back you agreed with me that people where giving away their boats for pennies on the dollar after making them perfect. Here is a good as new 21 superboat that does 100mph for $14k.

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?244331-21-Superboat-1995&highlight=dirk+pitt

[Brabender]

I wish I had the money for that one.... It was the one to grab....


I agree about the bottom rbt...Vs other hulls for speed and lift... But don't you think a lighter one is going the be faster w the same power, giving it the potential to be the fastest by far tuff vs tuff that is. Either way, I just like the way it looks. Love the deck on it.

A wider pad will provide more stability, speed.. but at the sacrifice of rough water handling, yes/no?

[mrpenguin]

You are right. I gave away my progression for a song

Very limited buyer, however they are out there ( for brand new that is)

Bigest problem for mfg's of this product is that buyer wants instant gratificatîon..
if its not there in front of them, and they have to visualize or wait, it's probably not going to happen....a tough spot, gamble to build one and hope for a buyer, but necesary

This was my point. It goes in a circle back to what you can get for $65k hence why new 21 SOB are not very big at all. Maybe a dozen sold by all the companies through out the USA total? If I had the money, I would love a new P22 but that is some serious coin and I am poor. :)

[RBT]

What prop is that?

[Mitchie]

The Tuff isn't super light, the black boat with the 300x is a tank. It is HUNDREDS of pounds heavier than the 300xs powers boat, the bottom of the tuff has a wider pad that is a different shape, the strikes are different and the notch is different. This is where the speed is, not the weight, while it certainly helps I am going to say it is more to do with the bottom.


Good points as well.

Keep in mind Mr. P... That RBT has seen the Tuff boats being built, ridden in them, probably driven them... And also had an original Challenger when Mark was rolling the first 21's out. This gave him an opportunity to run the two boats together. He has stated more than once what boat is faster, better riding, and all in all superior.

Having said that .. The classic challenger/superboat look holds a dear place in my heart.

Sorry Rob if I am putting words into your mouth.

[RBT]

I wish I had the money for that one.... It was the one to grab....I agree about the bottom rbt.... But don't you think a lighter one is going the be faster w the same power, giving it the potential to be the fastest by far. Love the deck on it.Yes it think lighter is faster, the 300x boat and the 300xs boat are within 1-2 mph of each other. There is a considerable weight difference between the two, the black x boat is the heaviest and the white xs boat is the lightest... There are other x boats but the owners don't run them hard. The question I have is how much difference is there btween the x and xs. Until we run both motors on the same hull we won't really know.m

[fast fun 2]

Something does not line up. Sutphen says the 21 with a Merc 525 clocked 93.4 MPH
I think Sutphen lied my friend lol
The boat Eric and I are talking about was at the Ct River Run running low to mid 80s. Unless they're sanding bagging, thats what the boat does.

[fast fun 2]

Good points as well.

Keep in mind Mr. P... That RBT has seen the Tuff boats being built, ridden in them, probably driven them... And also had an original Challenger when Mark was rolling the first 21's out. This gave him an opportunity to run the two boats together. He has stated more than once what boat is faster, better riding, and all in all superior.

Having said that .. The classic challenger/superboat look holds a dear place in my heart.

Sorry Rob if I am putting words into your mouth.
I loved my 21 Challenger, it was a factory raceboat and Im pretty sure quite a bit lighter than all the others (into the 70s with a 200). I was also one of those jerks who thinks the mighty Challenger is superior to all SOBs yada yada.
That being said.
Id still love a Challenger.
But Id buy a Tuff

[mrpenguin]

Good points as well.

Keep in mind Mr. P... That RBT has seen the Tuff boats being built, ridden in them, probably driven them... And also had an original Challenger when Mark was rolling the first 21's out. This gave him an opportunity to run the two boats together. He has stated more than once what boat is faster, better riding, and all in all superior.

Having said that .. The classic challenger/superboat look holds a dear place in my heart.

Sorry Rob if I am putting words into your mouth.

I hear you. I am not trying to discount Tuff. I have never seen one but I am sure it is the perfect example of a modern 21 SOB. For me it comes down to economics. If I had the money I would certainly have a new Tuff as well in my stable. Great winter time discussion. No hard feelings.

[Mitchie]

I hear you. I am not trying to discount Tuff. I have never seen one but I am sure it is the perfect example of a modern 21 SOB. For me it comes down to economics. If I had the money I would certainly have a new Tuff as well in my stable. Great winter time discussion. No hard feelings.

Dude.. Believe me... I will never be able to afford a Tuff(I can only dream). But I could see myself in a Challenger/Super some day.

[RBT]

Good points as well.Keep in mind Mr. P... That RBT has seen the Tuff boats being built, ridden in them, probably driven them... And also had an original Challenger when Mark was rolling the first 21's out. This gave him an opportunity to run the two boats together. He has stated more than once what boat is faster, better riding, and all in all superior.Having said that .. The classic challenger/superboat look holds a dear place in my heart.Sorry Rob if I am putting words into your mouth.I had two challengers, the aerated boat and before that a regular one. I was there from the start with tuff, I rigged Blake's boat it is the only tuff I have rigged the rest are in house. But yes I have been in a lot of them and yes they would run circles around my challengers. My aerated boat with the 300 pro max got stomped by mark in one with a 225 e tec.... It was ugly. I could run close top end even slightly faster but the new boat is just better, it was no lighter just better balanced. Keep in mind when the challenger was designed it was built around the then new merc v6 a 375 lb motor. Now we have 500+ lb motors hanging off the back, the was a huge consideration when the bottom alterations were made, they carry the extra mass a lot better, and run balanced. When I first put the aerated boat together it had a 2.5 on it, I then switched to the 300 pro max. While the 300 was slightly faster the boat never ran as well as it did with the 2.5.

[Mitchie]

Be careful dont boost his ego lol.he need a new sob

I'm pretty sure that if I had ever asked my old man about it... He would have told me that you don't want enemies from Long Island... lol :cheers:

[goneby]

Funny how everyone is saying how expensive a new modern built boat is.But what isnt.Back in 1988 I bought a brand new built for me 25ft Checkmate with a 454 magnum for 36,000,and gasoline wasnt $4:00 a gallon either,I can only imagine what a drum of Ashland 4000 resin goes for today.Guess its all relavent.

[schiadart]

Dude.. Believe me... I will never be able to afford a Tuff(I can only dream). But I could see myself in a Challenger/Super some day.

It is funny you throw out a lot of smack for someone that does not have the coin at this time. I have driven every one of the boats mentioned and raced most of them in crap water. If the tuff is the real deal I will have one once it is proven to me that it would be the best ski race boat for me. Photo Worlds 270536Belgium 2009

[DoktorC]

Thank you Mitchie ! Very kind of you :thumbsup:

I hope everyone knows I was not comparing my boat to any boat, as mine is the slowest :) I had to buy to suit needs !

I would love to see the Tuff 21 in person ! The red one looks awesome :thumbsup:

Shot this picture of my ( truck mota ) in July 2012

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/Ultimate48/DSC_0003-1.jpg

Im with Mitch...that's a nice 24 Steve. I've got a 24 outboard in the yard (it's a buddys) and it works really good...and honestly if you include the Stuphen based on its actual speed then the 24 isn't excluded either. This one runs 77mph with a stock 300 HPDI so 80 probably isn't out of reach with an XS....and for the guy that wants to overnight it's got a good size cabin. It does need a good chop to get the speed though...

[fast fun 2]

It is funny you throw out a lot of smack for someone that does not have the coin at this time. I have driven every one of the boats mentioned and raced most of them in crap water. If the tuff is the real deal I will have one once it is proven to me that it would be the best ski race boat for me. Photo Worlds 270536Belgium 2009
Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
I dont like the Tuff and everyone else does wahhhhhhhhhh
Although I agree the best proving ground is the race course...you dont have to convince me that a Tuff 28 will run with my Krypto in rough water, Ill trust the physics. I think you should do the same with the 21

[goneby]

Damn Steve you keep that thing clean looks new,and I agree with Fastfun2 who said anything about buying a ski race boat..???

[JamesGang]

Sorry guys haven't had time to read through this thread but my son Ben showed me a couple things on here about the 21 Sutphen and asked if I would correct the record. This is the 21 that ran at the Ct. river run a couple years ago.
270537
This boat had a 496 HO 425 prop HP and it ran a best of a little over 85 at the Toys for Tots run in Florida with Rich Jr driving it. I had it to almost 85 on the Hudson with Morgan Haak by my side for a witness. At the Ct. run I was in it at the end of the day running south back to Haddem. We got a little over 80 with 5 guys in the boat. Can't find the picture I have of the engine but here is a link to a picture of the engine.
http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ssx-425-magnum/olympus-digital-camera-2/
The cover is something Rich came up with to dress it up but smaller than the cover that comes on a 425. He did this to keep the size of the hatch down.
The other blue 21 that went straight up to Canada had the 525 in it. They ran it once as it was behind schedule to get to a show in Canada. No real dial in time at all tried one prop got roughly 94 and sent it out the door. Iknow this for a fact cause I sent 3 of my props down there for them to try and they didn't have time. I'm sure it has more in it but I haven't heard any further results. I'll find out more for you guys when I can. Here are links for you guys to check out on the 21s.

http://www.sutphen.ca/our-boats/

http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ssx-425-magnum/

http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ssx-mercury-racing-edition/

http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ss-mercury-outboard/

[fast fun 2]

Cool, I stand corrected.
Thanks for the info Jim!
That being said I still dont feel its in the same group as the others. In fact Im still confused as to why it is and the 22 Velocity and 21 SB arent
Its more like a 23 Krypto to me.

[goneby]

Jim do you happen to know what the deadrise is on the 21 Sutphen?

[Mitchie]

Damn Steve you keep that thing clean looks new,and I agree with Fastfun2 who said anything about buying a ski race boat..???

That what I was thinking. Thank you.

Whats with the negativity Shiadart? Obviously I should keep my opinion to myself as I am middle class. I think it's great that you can go cut the cheque on any boat you want. I did not say that any boat here was bad... I simply stated that the Tuff was in my opinion from the information that I had, the best. In fact I believe I said that Bernico was impressive.

Geez man... I can't afford a Ducati either.. But I have seen them and read what they can do. And I know they are amazing as a result.

[JamesGang]

Jim do you happen to know what the deadrise is on the 21 Sutphen?
Hey Chris,

Long time no see, hope all is good. Yea its a 20 degree. Also on the 525 that was the best they could do on Lake Hopatcong dodging pontoon boats and fisherman.

[JamesGang]

Cool, I stand corrected.
Thanks for the info Jim!
That being said I still dont feel its in the same group as the others. In fact Im still confused as to why it is and the 22 Velocity and 21 SB arent
Its more like a 23 Krypto to me.

Hey John,

Happy New Year. Hope your getting some snowmobileing in before you go back to school. To tell you the truth untill I have time to read a little of this thread I'm kind of lost. Got a quick fill in from Ben but have to get back to work and leave S&F alone for a while.

Have a good one.

[Jamescole]

It is funny you throw out a lot of smack for someone that does not have the coin at this time. I have driven every one of the boats mentioned and raced most of them in crap water. If the tuff is the real deal I will have one once it is proven to me that it would be the best ski race boat for me. Photo Worlds 270536Belgium 2009

What are you comparing wallet sizes now? Come on. Are you 4 years old?

man I have so many more pencil crayons than you.

I win

[fast fun 2]

Hey John,

Happy New Year. Hope your getting some snowmobileing in before you go back to school. To tell you the truth untill I have time to read a little of this thread I'm kind of lost. Got a quick fill in from Ben but have to get back to work and leave S&F alone for a while.

Have a good one.
Hope all is well my man, sadly I sold the sled...regretting it but oh well.
Stop by and see the Cobra some time
Be safe, you havent missed much lol

[Mitchie]

Sorry guys haven't had time to read through this thread but my son Ben showed me a couple things on here about the 21 Sutphen and asked if I would correct the record. This is the 21 that ran at the Ct. river run a couple years ago.
270537
This boat had a 496 HO 425 prop HP and it ran a best of a little over 85 at the Toys for Tots run in Florida with Rich Jr driving it. I had it to almost 85 on the Hudson with Morgan Haak by my side for a witness. At the Ct. run I was in it at the end of the day running south back to Haddem. We got a little over 80 with 5 guys in the boat. Can't find the picture I have of the engine but here is a link to a picture of the engine.
http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ssx-425-magnum/olympus-digital-camera-2/
The cover is something Rich came up with to dress it up but smaller than the cover that comes on a 425. He did this to keep the size of the hatch down.
The other blue 21 that went straight up to Canada had the 525 in it. They ran it once as it was behind schedule to get to a show in Canada. No real dial in time at all tried one prop got roughly 94 and sent it out the door. Iknow this for a fact cause I sent 3 of my props down there for them to try and they didn't have time. I'm sure it has more in it but I haven't heard any further results. I'll find out more for you guys when I can. Here are links for you guys to check out on the 21s.

http://www.sutphen.ca/our-boats/

http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ssx-425-magnum/

http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ssx-mercury-racing-edition/

http://www.sutphen.ca/21-sutphen-ss-mercury-outboard/

That boat is baaaad asss! The sound pulling up to the dock would make you feel like a boss.

[Donat]

If we are talking about fast I/os now here is some boat porn

http://vimeo.com/m/52466993

[THE HOSER]

That's bad ass

[Brabender]

Several pages back you agreed with me that people where giving away their boats for pennies on the dollar after making them perfect. Here is a good as new 21 superboat that does 100mph for $14k.
itt (http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?244331-21-Superboat-1995&highlight=dirk+pitt)
I'm a bit confused.... hang a 300xs on it your at 34k. How is that 1/5 the price

[Brabender]

Loved the Bernice video

[mrpenguin]

I'm a bit confused.... hang a 300xs on it your at 34k. How is that 1/5 the price

ok, even at 1/2 price turn key 21 Superboat "special" superboat ready for water, $35k++ in savings is nothing to sneeze at (at least for me.)

[dnelson964]

I'm a bit confused.... hang a 300xs on it your at 34k. How is that 1/5 the price


That's about 9,500.00 in 1982 funds and about right accounting for inflation. :D

[JamesGang]

That Blue 21 Sutphen SS was next to me at the beach CT River 2009 ! I talked to someone that was on the boat and they said it was 496 HO !

I didn't get to run with the 21 Sutphen SS but the boat sure is beautiful :thumbsup:

Pictures I have

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/Ultimate48/DSC_0170STPH.jpg
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/Ultimate48/DSC_0172STPH2.jpg
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/Ultimate48/DSC_0560.jpg

Hey Steve

If the guy you spoke to is the one driving in picture 3, that's Morgan. He was US distributor of sales for a time. Real knowledgeable guy on the Sutphens. If anyone has any more questions on the Sutphens maybe he will chime in. I called him today and let him know there were some people asking questions. I know he is pretty busy right now and hasn't been on here for a while. Did your 496 have a cover over it that you took off or is that the way it came?

[Greg G]

Cool, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info Jim


I'm glad to see JamesGang stepped in to validate the Sutphen 21 speed numbers. His comments match the data I had below about the Sutphen. I like to give the manufacturers a fair shake and would have been very surprised if Sutphen was lying about the numbers.

We got a new addition to the fleet. Morgan from Sutphen dropped off this little 21 a few weeks back and man, it works so well! It's got a 350mag MPI/Bravo spinning a labbed 27 Mirage Plus to 71.6 ongps. No chine walk, no porpoise, no bad habits, just a simple boatt hat does so many things so well. Interior by PPI, glass work absolutely perfect. If you are looking for a smaller boat that runs hard, you owe it to yourself to check one out!



<tbody>
Are you SURE it runs an honest 85 with a 496?


</tbody>
The fastest the boat ran was 86mph. I've been on it at 83mph and drove it at 80.


Yes, this is the 525 boat. The boat did 90 -91 without any real prop testing. The tabs are there for a few reasons. It is more stern heavy with this power plant, and at these speeds, its nice to have the tabs. Rich and thecustomer agreed to use the best hardware possible. Rich Jr. has it dialed in at 93.4 MPH

[Greg G]

I still don't feel the Sutphen 21 is in the same group as the others. It's more like a 23 Krypto to me.

Why would the Sutphen not be in the Fast 5 group? It is being offered as a new boat. It is being offered as a SOB. It is 21' long. And now we all know that it is pretty fast. It also looks pretty darn good in my opinion. I kinda like the deck they did.

[Greg G]

I think Sutphen lied my friend lol
The boat Eric and I are talking about was at the Ct River Run running low to mid 80s. Unless they're sanding bagging, thats what the boat does.

I did a little checking around and there seems to be some consensus that a hull like the Sutphen 21 powered by a 496HO and producing a best of 86MPH, would clock an almost identical speed with a 300XS. You would be losing 125 HP, but you would be picking up speed by being 1000lbs lighter so in effect a wash. Then you might pick up 1-2 MPH because of the better set-up options available with a wacker. That would give the Sutphen 21 a top speed in perfect conditions of 87 MPH. I am assuming that a 300XS produces 300HP (*306 per CrazyHippy) but don't know if anyone has put one on the dyno yet.

[CrazyHippy]

I am assuming that a 300XS produces 300HP but don't know if anyone has put one on the dyno yet.

http://www.davebushracing.com/mercury-optimax300x-update.html

306;)

[modvp]

That's a very clean engine compartment; is that a 496 HO?


Thank you Mitchie ! Very kind of you :thumbsup:

I hope everyone knows I was not comparing my boat to any boat, as mine is the slowest :) I had to buy to suit needs !

I would love to see the Tuff 21 in person ! The red one looks awesome :thumbsup:

Shot this picture of my ( truck mota ) in July 2012

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc270/Ultimate48/DSC_0003-1.jpg

[RobF]

Why would the Sutphen not be in the Fast 5 group? It is being offered as a new boat. It is being offered as a SOB. It is 21' long. And now we all know that it is pretty fast. It also looks pretty darn good in my opinion.


technically the question has been single outboard

it should maybe just be single engine

[mikeylarge]

I give Mikey credit he's gotta have some thick skin, plenty of abuse

I am pretty sure all of us Long Island boys have some pretty thick skin... WE run the boats 4 months a year and bust eachothers chops the other 8 lol

[vnemous]

Thank God I run mine 9 months a year so your only busting mine for 3

[hoser]

I am pretty sure all of us Long Island boys have some pretty thick skin... WE run the boats 4 months a year and bust eachothers chops the other 8 lol

thats what power boating is all about

[JamesGang]

I did a little checking around and there seems to be some consensus that a hull like the Sutphen 21 powered by a 496HO and producing a best of 86MPH, would clock an almost identical speed with a 300XS. You would be losing 125 HP, but you would be picking up speed by being 1000lbs lighter so in effect a wash. Then you might pick up 1-2 MPH because of the better set-up options available with a wacker. That would give the Sutphen 21 a top speed in perfect conditions of 87 MPH. I am assuming that a 300XS produces 300HP (*306 per CrazyHippy) but don't know if anyone has put one on the dyno yet.

Greg I think you’re off with that #. I have a 1985 22' velocity that runs 90 with a 300X, have had a couple and ran with a few and from my comparisons I think the Sutphen would be quite a bit faster. Guys that ran Velocitys with 350 small blocks making about 350 hp and running Alphas weren't even getting 65 with less drag. The first 21 Sutphen with the red stripes got almost 74 on a hand held GPS with two people and 1/2 tank of gas. I really believe there is more in the 525 boat, and I think Velocity recently built a 525 22' and I don't remember them getting these kind of speeds. Just from this comparison I was thinking that with a 300X the Sutphen would get my Velocity by quite a bit.

[Greg G]

technically the question has been single outboard



Rob, do you happen to know if Progression uses this same material in the P22?

100% Hydrox Resinand HydropelGel
100% Stichmat
100% Balsa core Bottom 5/8, sides and deck 3/8
100% Vacuum Bagged
100% Russian Birch transom, knees and stingers
100% Perimeter glassed.

Carbon, Kevlar and Infusion laminates available.

[RBT]

Rob, do you happen to know if Progression uses this same material in the P22?

100% Hydrox Resinand HydropelGel
100% Stichmat
100% Balsa core Bottom 5/8, sides and deck 3/8
100% Vacuum Bagged
100% Russian Birch transom, knees and stingers
100% Perimeter glassed.

Carbon, Kevlar and Infusion laminates available.

i should mention, that like progression the boats are/were bagged standard, but now all boats are infusion as standard.
From progressions website, they do use similar materials.

[vnemous]

Sit downs are a great idea. You should get the gas pedal like Superbender had. That was trick. Love your boat.

[fast fun 2]

Why would the Sutphen not be in the Fast 5 group? It is being offered as a new boat. It is being offered as a SOB. It is 21' long. And now we all know that it is pretty fast. It also looks pretty darn good in my opinion. I kinda like the deck they did.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again
Its a great boat, its gorgeous, the rigging is immaculate...BUT...to me its not in the same group as the others. It dwarfs them for one and its desgined to go THROUGH waves, not skip over the top. Personally, id LOVE one with a 500hp smallblock. Its a lot like comparing my avanti to my kryptonite...both 27s, yet very different.

[Greg G]

I've said it before. It's a great boat, it's gorgeous, the rigging is immaculate...BUT...to me its not in the same group as the others. It dwarfs them

While I watch the Crimson Tide roll and for yucks, how exactly does the Sutphen "dwarf" the other four boats below? Do you mean freeboard? We certainly know the hull is fast now.

Tuff 21 - 20’8” Long, 7’7” Beam
Progression 22 – 22’1” Long, 7’8” Beam
Bernico F2 21 – 21’3” Long, 6’3” Beam
Nordic Crossfire 21 – 21’ Long, 7’1” Beam
Sutphen 21 SS – 20’9” Long, 7’2” Beam

[RobF]

Greg- progression is all balsa, even the stringers and transom. He also weighs every hull and deck.

[fast fun 2]

Yes freeboard. Especially when sitting in it. The boat feels like a 24 Pantera, its really amazing actually how big it feels.
Im not doubting its fast..but I dont see it running 100 with a 300. Its a tall, plywood cored boat. Its a helluva wave crusher, right up my alley. But not a calm day screamer. Not with an outboard. Im not trying to knock the boat, just my opinion on it. Im not a sore loser though, im cool with being proven wrong :D

[tres]

This is GREAT!!!
Trimmed out..your machine FLYS...

[RBT]

Yes freeboard. Especially when sitting in it. The boat feels like a 24 Pantera, its really amazing actually how big it feels.
Im not doubting its fast..but I dont see it running 100 with a 300. Its a tall, plywood cored boat. Its a helluva wave crusher, right up my alley. But not a calm day screamer. Not with an outboard. Im not trying to knock the boat, just my opinion on it. Im not a sore loser though, im cool with being proven wrong :D

I really like the sutphen, but for the life of me I cannot figure out the plywood core.......

[fast fun 2]

I really like the sutphen, but for the life of me I cannot figure out the plywood core.......
Old School!
I swear plywood cored boats do have a different feel..but im probably just crazy lol

[DoktorC]

I really like the sutphen, but for the life of me I cannot figure out the plywood core.......

I agree! We're halfway through replacing the plywood core in my bro's 30 Velocity (with balsa)....it's from the late 70's or early 80's...neither boat are vacuum bagged either lol. Balsa would have to be MUCH easier to work with and really not that much more expensive.

[Greg G]

Yes freeboard. Especially when sitting in it. The boat feels like a 24 Pantera, its really amazing actually how big it feels. Im not doubting its fast..but I dont see it running 100 with a 300. Its a tall, plywood cored boat. Its a helluva wave crusher, right up my alley. But not a calm day screamer. Not with an outboard. Im not trying to knock the boat, just my opinion on it. Im not a sore loser though, im cool with being proven wrong :D

I can absolutely understand your point about the plywood core, but after that I'm struggling. Perhaps "the feel" is based on the fairing, but having a little more freeboard (you as a race guy know this) in a rough water SOB is an advantage. If I look at the guy seated in the photo, I would bet that the extra freeboard on the Sutphen is at best a few inches higher then the other four boats being discussed. As far as it not being a calm day screamer, your street cred is a just a little low after you said the 525 I/O Sutphen 21 was only doing 83 when it actually did 93.4MPH. But hey, what is a 10MPH error amongst winter bench racers. :rolleyes:

[RBT]

If you compromise plywood unlike balsa is will run the grain, it also delaminates, and is not near as rigid.....

[RBT]

I can absolutely understand your point about the plywood core, but after that I'm struggling. Perhaps "the feel" is based on the fairing, but having a little more freeboard (you as a race guy know this) in a rough water SOB is an advantage. If I look at the guy seated in the photo, I would bet that the extra freeboard on the Sutphen is at best a few inches higher then the other four boats being discussed. As far as it not being a calm day screamer, your street cred is a just a little low after you said the 525 I/O Sutphen 21 was only doing 83 when it actually did 93.4MPH. But hey, what is a 10MPH error amongst winter bench racers. :rolleyes:


Seeing as a good friend of mine is now the dealer, I will get a fair bit of seat time in them.... And one is the 525 boat. Will be interesting to see what it really will do and how they compare.

[Greg G]

I agree and the feedback would be cool. I thought one of the OB Sutphen's also ended up your way in Canada

[goneby]

I agree the 21 Sutphen is a great looking boat,bu I dont know how much of a wave crusher it would be with a 20 degree bottom.

[dnelson964]

I agree the 21 Sutphen is a great looking boat,bu I dont know how much of a wave crusher it would be with a 20 degree bottom.

I think the Checkmate is 19 or 20 degree so I would suspect similar rough water ability ?

[RBT]

I agree and the feedback would be cool. I thought one of the OB Sutphen's also ended up your way.

Maybe, the new dealer just got the line a mth ago. The former dealer I believe did sell a boat or two. Just not sure what. The new dealer is a fantastic marina, great mechanics great service. I hope they do well.

[goneby]

I think the Checkmate is 19 or 20 degree so I would suspect similar rough water ability ?
My friends starflight had a 19 degree bottom and he got beat up in the great south bay compared to my shadow at the time.Was faster in flat water but couldnt hang in rough water and my progression iis even better in rough water.

[dnelson964]

My friends starflight had a 19 degree bottom and he got beat up in the great south bay compared to my shadow at the time.Was faster in flat water but couldnt hang in rough water and my progression iis even better in rough water.

Exactly my thoughts. I think it may run more similar to a pulsaire since it's a heavier boat.

[200valeroyt]

Yea, my Pulsare has its limitations in snotty water.

[Greg G]

How can the Bernico be strong if it is so light? Is it made of unobtainium? 550 lb seems pretty light for offshore duty, but I've never seen a Bernico or raced offshore, so it's just a question.


I believe that Bernico has a pretty amazing history in offshore but remember that the 550lbs was the 2008 21 F2 race hull. The 2010 (and older) standard layup 21 F2 Xtremes are heavier and still use the very unique bottom design, far different then any of the other boats that have been discussed in this thread. That bottom design plays a large roll in there rough water capabilities with the step that is placed at about the 60% forward mark on the running plank.

[fast fun 2]

I can absolutely understand your point about the plywood core, but after that I'm struggling. Perhaps "the feel" is based on the fairing, but having a little more freeboard (you as a race guy know this) in a rough water SOB is an advantage. If I look at the guy seated in the photo, I would bet that the extra freeboard on the Sutphen is at best a few inches higher then the other four boats being discussed. As far as it not being a calm day screamer, your street cred is a just a little low after you said the 525 I/O Sutphen 21 was only doing 83 when it actually did 93.4MPH. But hey, what is a 10MPH error amongst winter bench racers. :rolleyes:
I gotta be honest I didnt think we were having a hostile argument but Im starting to get the feel we are?
I owned a Challenger for a long time, its a completely different feeling from sitting in the Sutphen. Frankly, I prefer the Sutphen, you really sit "in" the boat...and im 6 foot 4. More freeboard absolutely increases rough water capabilities, which I said before not sure how that confused you. I was confused on the big block speed, understood and im glad Jim corrected me, hes a good friend of mine.
THAT BEING SAID
Id still be very suprised if this boat ran 100 with a 300 as some of the others in your "fast five" can. Very suprised.
But, id loved to be proved wrong!
BTW...i couldnt give two ****s about my "street cred"

[JamesGang]

I agree the 21 Sutphen is a great looking boat,bu I dont know how much of a wave crusher it would be with a 20 degree bottom.

Hey Chris it aint no Checkmate. I can tell ya I have been out in some pretty snotty water in that blue one and it is impressive how well it goes over it. I don't know exactly what Riches trick is but for a 20 degree bottom it sure doesn't act like one.
I hope you get a chance to drive one one day, it just has a great feel.

[fast fun 2]

Hey Chris it aint no Checkmate. I can tell ya I have been out in some pretty snotty water in that blue one and it is impressive how well it goes over it. I don't know exactly what Riches trick is but for a 20 degree bottom it sure doesn't act like one.
I hope you get a chance to drive one one day, it just has a great feel.
If it came down to real big water Id take the Sutphen over everything mentioned so far!
Its what Richie does...big water.
I mean real big...when "getting on top" isnt an option.

[JamesGang]

I gotta be honest I didnt think we were having a hostile argument but Im starting to get the feel we are?
I owned a Challenger for a long time, its a completely different feeling from sitting in the Sutphen. Frankly, I prefer the Sutphen, you really sit "in" the boat...and im 6 foot 4. More freeboard absolutely increases rough water capabilities, which I said before not sure how that confused you. I was confused on the big block speed, understood and im glad Jim corrected me, hes a good friend of mine.
THAT BEING SAID
Id still be very suprised if this boat ran 100 with a 300 as some of the others in your "fast five" can. Very suprised.
But, id loved to be proved wrong!
BTW...i couldnt give two ****s about my "street cred"

John I think your on the money with the 100. Its just not a fly weight so it won't be the fastest in this crowd but definitely no slouch and an unbelievable ride. I hope the Canada boys prove us both wrong. They take their boating pretty serious up there. I could tell ya a few stories.

[fast fun 2]

John I think your on the money with the 100. Its just not a fly weight so it won't be the fastest in this crowd but definitely no slouch and an unbelievable ride. I hope the Canada boys prove us both wrong. They take their boating pretty serious up there. I could tell ya a few stories.
We have some Canadian customers...no explanation needed :D

[tux974]

Greg I think you’re off with that #. I have a 1985 22' velocity that runs 90 with a 300X, have had a couple and ran with a few and from my comparisons I think the Sutphen would be quite a bit faster. Guys that ran Velocitys with 350 small blocks making about 350 hp and running Alphas weren't even getting 65 with less drag. The first 21 Sutphen with the red stripes got almost 74 on a hand held GPS with two people and 1/2 tank of gas. I really believe there is more in the 525 boat, and I think Velocity recently built a 525 22' and I don't remember them getting these kind of speeds. Just from this comparison I was thinking that with a 300X the Sutphen would get my Velocity by quite a bit.

Jim, :iagree: on the velocity running 90. I put a 2002 X on my 87 and with very little test/setup time it was running mid 80. Personally after owning 2-21 Supers found that the Velocity rode better and was a much drier boat.
BTW, You can buy a new 22 O/B Velocity and in 2 different layups. My buddy has a new 22 which he had built custom (Kevlar) it is light and with a 250 4 stroke Yamaha runs in the 80's with very little test/setup time. So if you do not need a boat running high 90's but still be fast, fun and have eye appeal I would not rule it out....JMPO
http://i49.tinypic.com/259fnsi.jpg
As for the Supthen. I had the chance to spend an afternoon with Rich jr when they started to build them in NJ and I can feel he and the painter took their building/finish very serious. He was also very concerned on his end result/performance so IMPO, the 21 with a 300X or XS should have no problem reaching 90. I do question the 20deg bottom in the rough, which we talked briefly about and his response was, it should do OK.
I still think is a very nice looking boat, super cool with that 525 and has some amazing attention to the finish and rigging! No doubt there though, he is a perfectionist :thumbsup:

[XstreamVking]

I was at a local merc dealer a while ago. They were wrapping up the rigging on a new 21 Sutphen with a 300XS. Had the 1.62 gear and a 26p 4 bl bravo. Tech said it would run 80 plus as it was, and believed mid 80s were there with more set up. Said it ran with the bow high and had a slight porpoise at mid range. I tapped around on it and it felt very solid as all the Sutphen boats are. Finish was flawless. Love the look of the Sutphens, wish I still had mine.... Really miss stopping by and talking to Rich Sr. at his shop in Cape Coral......

[Greg G]

I think your on the money with the 100. Its just not a fly weight so it won't be the fastest in this crowd but definitely no slouch and an unbelievable ride.

JamesGang, I tried to get Sutphen to rig there 21 with a 300XS to see what the numbers would have looked like. At the time, there was a guy named Chris (I think) who was involved with Rich Sutphen Jr in promoting and selling the new 21's. I told him it would really promote the boat to have a high speed set up "out there" on the internet. I don't believe they ever did a 300 but instead chose to put a 225 Mercury on the back of one for a customer. Your experience driving the Sutphen 21 as compared to your Velocity is pretty interesting, although isn't the X motor about 325HP and 7000 RPM as compared to a 300XS. It sounds like any way you slice it a Sutphen 21, properly set up, with a 300XS would at least do 89MPH which is impressive when you consider it does not have a pad like any of the other boats being discussed in this thread. I wonder what the bare hull weight is.

[goneby]

Hey Chris it aint no Checkmate. I can tell ya I have been out in some pretty snotty water in that blue one and it is impressive how well it goes over it. I don't know exactly what Riches trick is but for a 20 degree bottom it sure doesn't act like one.
I hope you get a chance to drive one one day, it just has a great feel.
Hey Jim had a rough year looking forward to a better one this year.As far as the Sutphen I'm sure it's much better build than checkmate was just comparing deadrise.Must be extra weight that makes up for the ride?

[Mitchie]

I gotta be honest I didnt think we were having a hostile argument but Im starting to get the feel we are?
I owned a Challenger for a long time, its a completely different feeling from sitting in the Sutphen. Frankly, I prefer the Sutphen, you really sit "in" the boat...and im 6 foot 4. More freeboard absolutely increases rough water capabilities, which I said before not sure how that confused you. I was confused on the big block speed, understood and im glad Jim corrected me, hes a good friend of mine.
THAT BEING SAID
Id still be very suprised if this boat ran 100 with a 300 as some of the others in your "fast five" can. Very suprised.
But, id loved to be proved wrong!
BTW...i couldnt give two ****s about my "street cred"


Don't worry Mr. Saris.. you have all the "street cred" in the world with me.. lol.

That blue sutphen looks absolutely amazing.. Old school awesome. But It definitely is a different animal with a big block.

I also don't get the plywood core thing. That seems HEAVY!
Hopefully I get to see one run this summer...

[JamesGang]

Tux, will Velocity still build with the old style deck if someone wanted one. I think it would be a good option, all the car manufacturers went retro.

Chris & Mitchie, I don't think its weight. I think there is more to the hull than you think. The Sutphens have plenty of experience and tricks up there sleeves. Watch this on PT boats, its generations of knowledge passed down. Rich learned how to build molds from his grand father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8tQP3s9DIQ
They had to beat out every builder of the era on performance along with durability to win the governments contracts.
As far as core goes. My 1991 31' Spirit OB is cored with 3/4 marine ply, hull still perfect nothing has delaminated or had to be re cored after years of a serious abuse. The hull weight before rigging on my 31 is 2800 lbs. I was always told they know how to build an extremely strong boat, and know where you need strength and where you can save weight.

[87starflite]

id take a pt boat, they are badass

[Mitchie]

Tux, will Velocity still build with the old style deck if someone wanted one. I think it would be a good option, all the car manufacturers went retro.

Chris & Mitchie, I don't think its weight. I think there is more to the hull than you think. The Sutphens have plenty of experience and tricks up there sleeves. Watch this on PT boats, its generations of knowledge passed down. Rich learned how to build molds from his grand father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8tQP3s9DIQ
They had to beat out every builder of the era on performance along with durability to win the governments contracts.
As far as core goes. My 1991 31' Spirit OB is cored with 3/4 marine ply, hull still perfect nothing has delaminated or had to be re cored after years of a serious abuse. The hull weight before rigging on my 31 is 2800 lbs. I was always told they know how to build an extremely strong boat, and know where you need strength and where you can save weight.

They obviously, much like alot of other people... Know more than I do. lol.
I REALLY like that boat.

[fast fun 2]

Tell ya what plywood cored boats do give a better feel in the ocean then balsa boats. Either that or Im going crazy. Its kinda like the difference between and epoxy boat and a vinyl ester boat...in the big water you can feel it. Its hard to explain. JamesGang knows what Im talking about.
The way a plywood boat sounds when you land, the way it soaks up the landing...its all just different to me.
I still want a Tuff though lol

[fast fun 2]

100%
Ive only seen one Sutphen come apart...and it was raced HARD offshore from the early 80s to its death in 2004. Buckshot. And even that was a freak deal.

[JamesGang]

Buckshot was butchered to lighten it up. They were told that what they were doing was a horrible idea and they learned. John your dead on about the way they land. I always thought it was the 26 degree v but maybe there is more to it. Never really gave it much thought that it could be the deadening from the plywood. Maybe that's why the 21 runs the rough so good with only a 20 degree.
Love the "homo depot" nickname. Is that patented or can I use it?

[TooStroked]

Tell ya what plywood cored boats do give a better feel in the ocean then balsa boats. Either that or Im going crazy. Its kinda like the difference between and epoxy boat and a vinyl ester boat...in the big water you can feel it. Its hard to explain. JamesGang knows what Im talking about.
The way a plywood boat sounds when you land, the way it soaks up the landing...its all just different to me.
I still want a Tuff though lol

Johnny,

I'll absolutely agree with you here - and can maybe even offer a reason why. I've driven both types of cores and the plywood does sound / feel different than balsa. As an engineer, I'd have to believe the reason comes from the construction of plywood. As the name implies, it's plys of wood glued and sandwiched together. These plys are parallel to the water when in the bottom. So think of it as layers of carpeting that absorb shock. Balsa core doesn't have that. And I might add, balsa is more likely to fail in shear (with the grain) than plywood when really beat on for similar reasons. Make sense? But, balsa is much lighter than plywood no matter what you do with it.

As for ride quality and how it relates to deadrise, I have some thoughts there too. First, deadrise isn't everything. Generally speaking, a 24 degree bottom will ride better in rough water than a 20 degree bottom. But, if you add a big enough and / or flat enough pad, you can destroy the ride in a 24 degree bottom. (Several Checkmate hulls have this "feature.") Angle of entry also has a lot to do with how well a hull slices through the waves too. And weight does help to a point. Heavier boats (all things being equal) will generally smash through stuff better than lighter hulls of the same design.

But I must add that my old Checkmate Spectra 201 (with a 20 degree bottom) rode like a floor jack compared to my 22' Progression. When my son was little, he called the Checkmate "the bumpy boat."

Tom

[Brabender]

Thread is off the tracks

[THE HOSER]

Thread is off the tracks

All as I know is that my 21 is the fastest

[Mitchie]

I thought I read on OSO that some guy was popping out Apache scouts?? And was Hustler not building an SOB?

[JamesGang]

Hoser is your faster than Keiths?

[mikeylarge]

Hoser is your faster than Keiths?
This question needs to be settled this summer

[JamesGang]

Sorry Brabender. My son asked me to come on here and defend the Sutphens a little. I guess I over did it.

[87starflite]

Your boat can be the fastest but what good is t if it doesn't leave the trailer

[TooStroked]

I thought I read on OSO that some guy was popping out Apache scouts?? And was Hustler not building an SOB?

Yes, I believe you can actually buy a new Apache Scout 21', but they're quite heavy compared to the other hulls mentioned here. A friend of mine had a new one about 3 years ago up here on Lake Ontario with a 250 XS on it. Without a ton of setup work he was only running mid-80's. And quite honestly, I wasn't impressed with the build quality.

[mikeylarge]

Your boat can be the fastest but what good is t if it doesn't leave the trailer
Or the warehouse

[fast fun 2]

Buckshot was butchered to lighten it up. They were told that what they were doing was a horrible idea and they learned. John your dead on about the way they land. I always thought it was the 26 degree v but maybe there is more to it. Never really gave it much thought that it could be the deadening from the plywood. Maybe that's why the 21 runs the rough so good with only a 20 degree.
Love the "homo depot" nickname. Is that patented or can I use it?
Careful agreeing with me, "my street cred is low"

[vnemous]

Careful agreeing with me, "my street cred is low"


Ive seen you drive on the street it should be low Junior.

[fast fun 2]

Tell ya what if Mikey's 21 Challenger was going 80 with a 250, and mine was running mid to high 70s with a 245, id be willing to bet a properly setup one with a 300xs could be mid 80s to high 80s easy.
Hey you saw me walkin the street thats different.
And since when is a 21 Superboat unavailable new? Even the new deck? Thats a shame I liked that boat