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helmetguru
01-07-2003, 01:45 AM
i thought this could lead to an interesting comparison, my top five are as follows:

1. Chris Bush
2. Bill Seebold
3. Renato Molinari
4. Ken Stevenson
5. Gene Thibodeaux

while i had a hard time with 1 and 2 i think this could go either way. i give chris #1 because what he made up for in seat time and actually building his own boats and supplying everybody else with boats he ran super hard and won ALOT of races. I think in pure talent Chris and Billy are equal but Chris did alot with alot less. if anyone ever had the honor of watching him wheel a 1000 pound overpowered champ boat around a course you know what i'm talking about.

renato started it all and probably drove as many boats as billy but bailed out earlier.

ken stevenson was the man, he drove V8's and V6's on two different circuits the same year and won races. he pushed hard all the time and even lost st louis because he barrell rolled while in the lead, he didn't know he was in the lead.

gene might have not had alot of freinds but the guy drove hard. he raced V8's with reckless abandoned not unlike he drove Mod-50's back in the day. Destroying boats and winning races he should have raced longer but hurt his shoulder and burned some bridges.

there were plenty of other contenders, but I think if you add up the classes they ran, the people they ran against, in the places they ran at, in the era they ran in, some might agree.

Raceman
01-07-2003, 07:21 AM
I think I'd have to put Billy in the top spot by a pretty big margin. It's true that he had access to the good stuff for a long time, but in my mind his career is unparalleled.

I think Benny Roberson has to be on the list too. His experience spread over such a wide variety of boat racing and his accomplishments as a privateer are very impressive.

I remember Ken Stevenson's name from going to the races in the 70's, but don't recall him as being a front runner with the big boys. This may be incorrect and I sure don't mean to detract from his career.

I can't remember much about Gene, except for vaguely remembering his name.

If Chris Bush is going to be included, it seems like Foster would be in the same mix.

I think Mike Seebold's gotta be in the list also.

Seems like Capolini has to be included too. His present level of performance, given today's equality of equipment is mighty impressive.

Rusrog
01-07-2003, 11:06 AM
I'm thinking......

1 & 2) Chris Bush & Bill Seebold...
What a tough call this one is.... Seebold was actually probably a better driver but CB would fight you tooth & nail for a win....

3) Renato Molinari.... He is after all.... The Maestro...

4) Benny Robertson was always in the hunt...

5) Guido Capellini would probably have to be next but Buck Thornton and Greg Foster and Craig Wendt would also be in the hunt I would think....

T2x
01-08-2003, 05:27 PM
IF we are talking talent...............

1. Billy...... no contest

2. Earl Bentz

3. Renato

4. Guido

5. Michael

stang
01-08-2003, 05:35 PM
its hard to say there was a bunch of real good drivers way more then anyone one has listed , dont forget across the pond , a **** load from england but Bill has to be number 1

MagicFloat
01-08-2003, 06:39 PM
Don't forget Cees

hydrostreamvulture1
01-08-2003, 09:53 PM
about john marles?:D

helmetguru
01-09-2003, 01:12 AM
you know i completely overlooked Jim, he was one of the greats as well. like i mentioned in my post, there are so many others that would qualify in the top five. earl bentz?? while he was a factory merc driver i consider his driving pretty dirty...i can think of more than a few races where he had somebody wanting to take him out.

cappellini, no way, he just outspends everybody by a gillion dollars and builds the boats. i would think it would be easy to dominate if you're building everybody else's rigs, a half an inch here, a thicker stringer there and you have a completely different and potentially slower boat. the only reason scott gillman hasn't strummed him for the last five years is his focus is on too many projects and he tries wierd set ups.

gillman would be another good one for the list.

image below ken stevenson at parker '80 on the first lap, remember how cool it was to see who would come up the river first?

WILDCAT2.5
01-09-2003, 02:05 AM
putting Peter Lindenberg to the list of driver?

"Lindenberg started powerboat racing in 1978 in the South African TN class, going on to win the South African title in an outboard monohull the next year. In 1981 be became the first South African driver to purchase a Grand Prix craft which he used to take his first of fourteen South African Grand Prix Champion titles by the end of that season. He joined the World Series in 1985, winning the British Grand Prix in 1989 and finishing third overall that year. Lindenberg nearly lost his life in an accident in Malaysia in 1989, but this did not deter him from the sport. He has been a South African Powerboat Champion on fourteen occasions, having only lost the title five times in 19 years. He finished 2nd overall in the 1998/1999 season, but came back to take his 14th F1 Powerboating season title in 1999/2000."

I have meet the following people in races in South Africa to:
Fred Hauenstein,Guido Capellini ,Bill Seebold and Graig Baily and really had some good times with them at race events.

Markus

BK
01-09-2003, 07:53 AM
Ron, I agree with you! Ted May should be on that list! And if my dad were here, he'd be saying "RON HILL!"

These "Top 5" lists are never fair. Way too many drivers to put on the list -- all of them GREAT.

What about the great drivers that left us too soon? before they became widely known? My vote would be for Red Hindman -- He only raced OPC boats for 2 years and had already won championships and big ModVP races against long standing heros. Imagine what he would have accomplished had he not tragically died?

And there are several more fabulous drivers like Red Hindman - like Cesare Scotti too - who died too soon before they could get the recognition they deserved.

BK
01-09-2003, 07:59 AM
Buddy --- Oh I remember that Parker first lap anticipation well!

And the silence just before the count down -- 5.....4.....3......2....

Then 100 boats would fire up all at once and tear down the river...the boats that didn't fire right off would have to plow through those horrible Pacific sized wakes.......

But within a minute or two.......Silence again, as all the boats were now a mile or two down river.

As the little white roostertails got smaller and eventually were out of our site --- things got so quiet. We'd wait.

And wait.......

Suddenly the announcer would say "I THINK I SEE THE LEADER COMING!!"

Everyone would rush to the bank to see who it was....We'd see a tiny white speck coming toward us.....

Closer .....closer he'd come.... the announcer would then say "LADIES AND GENTLEMEN -- THE FIRST BOAT TO MAKE A LAP AND OUR CURRENT LEADER IS...."

And everyone would cheer and scream and for the next 3 minutes the roar of all those boats rounding the judges stand turn would deafen the announcers calls.... but a few minutes later -- Silence again.


GOD how I miss the Parker Enduro. :(

omc-v4
01-09-2003, 08:13 AM
i have never herd of some of thoes guys. i think i saw ted crash at parker the year me and red were there. it really hurt to see him on streacher. he is great . did he have a scottie ? NAMED HELL CAT. I allways liked johnny sanders.

MirageBts
01-09-2003, 09:03 AM
(it's me, Val, on Brad's machine)

Yes, Beaver.

Before that Parker wreck, Ted had a prior nasty crash with a ModVP that tore the most of the deck of Scotti craft "Hell cat" apart. It was then pieced together, with a large flat nose where the square deck bow used to be. The boat was then over 16 years old, and everyone was bugging Ted to give up the Old Scotti and drive a newer boat.

So at Parker, he was driving a "newer" hull (cant remember what type of hull it was, but it was far from being 'new' -- JJ's dad owned it I think - he can fill us in)

Ted crashed it while I was scoring for Red. My friend Trisha was scoring for Ted a few seats away. When I saw a white bow bobbing nose up in the water up river, The driver was being rushed in and I looked at Trish - I yelled "Is that TED????". Trish wouldnt answer. She knew it was bad and didnt want to tell me.

Ted was about 67-69 years old then (we never knew his age for sure, and he always gave us different answers). I freaked out. He went through the deck with his face. Had some missing teeth and broken facial bones and ribs and was care-flighted to Phoenix --

But he was back to racing his old "Hell Cat" by Havasu - vowing never to drive those 'new fangled' boats again. At Havasu, even Brad spent some time working on the Hell Cat in the Pioneer Parking lot, to try and keep it together for at least one more race.

gemini
01-09-2003, 09:06 AM
It's easy.......sort of

Bill Seebold....Bill Sirois....Johnny Sanders...Renato...Bob Hering

T2x
01-09-2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by BK

These "Top 5" lists are never fair. Way too many drivers to put on the list -- all of them GREAT.



BK you're probably right.....................For instance, Lee Sutter didn't have a long career in OPC....but man could he drive! He single handedly started the revolution that left every thing from washers to driver's suit buttons on the beach to save weight.

One other name lost in all of this.................... Sirois......

And how good would either Briggs brother have been....if they lasted?

Another guy...........Sherlock.

La Grand Canadienne.................... Spencer Dunn


It goes on and on.


T2x

Jeff_G
01-09-2003, 11:23 AM
Thats the problem. There isn't a top five, and there is no way to compare. All very subjective. I think that T2X came closest, hard to argue.

AnthonySS
01-09-2003, 11:54 AM
Mark Rotharmel
Oley Berkis
Ted Gryguc
Lee Davies

Honourable mention

Rob Schytes
Tom Wood

Firestarter
01-09-2003, 12:08 PM
I would put Oley at the top, but I like the rest.

RT...........don't let Ted see the list ;)

Bruce Washburn
01-09-2003, 07:09 PM
Over the years there have been alot of great drivers.
Sirois was probably one of the smoothest drivers I have ever seen. He could drive anything that floated well.
Bill Seebold has to be at or near the top of anyone's list.
Molinari also was very good
Bush had great tallent but tore up to much stuff.
I don't think JIm Merten or his sons ever really got the chance to show what they could do but also had a ton of tallent.
A couple of other names that could also be in the top.
Rick Hoffman
Velden
Mike Seebold
Buck Thornton (Buck beat the factory drivers a number of times. With equal equipment he was very hard to beat.)
Benny Robertson also was very tallented.

It would be very difficult to make a list of the top 5 of all time since the equipment and driving styles have changed dramatically over the last 30 years.

helmetguru
01-09-2003, 08:24 PM
yep rick hoffman is/was a great driver, seemed like he always had a problem with bouys though. i remember him driving his sst-100 boat at madison one year, came all the way through the pack driving his arse off then hit a bouy with a few laps to go. did the same thing in a 45. builder of some of the coolest boats ever made but never seemed to really break out...

bk, Scotti never get the recognition he deserved?? he's one of the greats, boat builders, drivers, pr guys for boat racing! while he died well before his time should have been up, he left a fame and legacy that extends even to today and i'm sure long into the future...i think Geoff Briggs would fall into that category but not Cesare ( chez A ray not ceezur ) wierd huh?

oley birkis almost wore the go navy cougar boat at st louis in 79 when he cut my dad off coming into the islands, if a spark plug wire wouldn't have come off the triple c, bud would have gotten oley long before cancer did...

Ron Hill
01-09-2003, 08:54 PM
Gemini, I'd basically go with all but Herring. Bobby was good but not a top five.

Bruce Washburn's points about Hoffman and Thornton... I saw Buck beat many a racer when he, Buck, had lesser equipment.

The fact that Hoffman built and drove his own boats without any realy factory cash puts him in a different class than Scotti or Renato. Those two always had money to burn from factories and always had the best power available...

Example: Paris 1970. Renato asked Garbrecht if his engine is the same as Sirois. Garbrecht says yes. An hour later Renato asked garbrecht if his motor is the same as Sirois. Garbrecht get very angry at Renato for asking again.

That night, Renato and his team pay the guards in the pits and switch engines with Sirois. In the morning, Renato asks Garbrecht again. Garbrecht assures Renato they are equal. Renato says, "Great, because we switched powerheads in the night." Garbrecht checks and realizes Renato did in fact change motors....

Renato leads the first lap. Sirois comes around not in the top ten. Sirois later nose dives and has to come back to the U.S.A. for medical treatment... So, the best driver that day was Renato.

There have been some great ones. To me the great ones drove everything well...

ADD TED MAY: In the 1968 Six Hours of Paris...Ted May was number one driver, I was number on our team. I was 24 years old. Ted May was 48 years old...

Ron Hill
01-10-2003, 03:51 PM
It is easy to sit an say how great they were. How great would Richard Petty be today?


Looking at the APBA Propeller Magazine, last night, it occured to me that guys like Greg Foster, Todd Bowden, Max Toler, Terry Rinker, Jason Campbell, Tim Seebold, Mike Seebold and Chris Fairchild have to be part of a new breed of GREATS.

Trust me, winning today isn't easy. Look at the time and experience some of these YOUNG LIONS HAVE.

Jason's dad raced. Hell, everyone one on this list is a second generation driver, maybe not MAX. But Max has been coming up for a long time. He held the 120 Kilo record...8 years ago.

These guys are running revlimited motors, equal S-3000 type blocks and heads. It ain't like you could just add 40 HP and go out an blow the doors off everyone.

When we went from 89 cubic inches to 100... holy sh*&, on a twin. What a difference.

These guys today are basically runing IROC Motors.

I give them my vote. Go to a Champ Race and watch one of these guys........only them. Look for errors....A second is a lot of time anymore!!!!


A different prop could be why these guys win......Turbo Props? I thought they made "FISHIN PROPS".......

I remember Scotti taking his prop to dinner with him several times. Once testing was done, the props stayed with him.

Joe J.
01-10-2003, 08:34 PM
Val, the boat Ted crashed at Parker was my dad's old Del-craft.


As for a top 5 list Buddy, you really need to have 2 lists, like Ron refered to. One for the factory guys, and one for the independents.

Yes Ricky Hoffman could really drive a boat, but except in his 2nd Effort days, really never had any $$ behind him.

Don Johnston would not make a top 5 list, but could drive the sh__ out of a boat. How about some of the drivers that were not factory drivers, but had some help.

I always liked watching Bob Larson drive, he seemed to be on top of things.

I would say the top 2 would be Billy and Jimbo.

JJ

BK
01-11-2003, 12:03 AM
In my lifetime there are a handful of drivers who impressed me greatly with their driving skills. These guys could jump in any boat and always appear to make it go faster.....whether they had big bucks or not.

Some of these drivers are.......(not in any particular order)

Chris Bush, Ted May, Cesare Scotti, JR Saffold, Bob Wartinger, Rick Hoffman, Tracy Hawkins, Red Hindman, Bill and Mike Seebold, & Greg Foster.


This doesn't take in account all the great drivers I never got to watch race in person.....

BK
01-11-2003, 02:55 PM
PS Rick Hoffman ran number #201 in the mid-late 1980s. When the F1 series went to single digits, he ran #6.

Mark75H
01-11-2003, 10:19 PM
Chris Bush
Bill Seebold
Renato Molinari
Ken Stevenson
Gene Thibodeaux
Ted May
Cesare Scotti
JR Saffold
Bob Wartinger
Rick Hoffman
Tracy Hawkins
Red Hindman
Mike Seebold
Greg Foster
Jimbo McConnell
Bill Sirois
Harold Eis
Jack Oxley
Todd Bowden
Max Toler
Buck Thornton
Benny Robertson
Terry Rinker
Jason Campbell
Tim Seebold
Chris Fairchild
Geoff Briggs
Bob Herring
John Sanders
Ron Hill
Spencer Dunn
Mark Rotharmel
Oley Berkis
Ted Gryguc
Lee Davies
Cees Van Der Velden
Kenny Kitson
Earl Bentz


It's a pretty long list. Can you guys fill in some biography on each of these guys for those of us who don't know everyone on the list? If you can't, the list is just a bunch of names, familiar to insiders, but meaningless to other fans.

When did each guy start racing? Howmany wins in which classes? How long did they race?

Joe J.
01-12-2003, 12:11 AM
Val, there is a simple reason that Ricky ran #201. His dad, Kenny, ran #281, and when Ricky got in the boat, they put duck tape over the middle leg of the 8.

When he ran #6, he was working with John Gibbs, and that was always John's number.

JJ

Ron Hill
01-13-2003, 12:07 AM
Good point about where these guys came from:

Let me try with Todd Bowden: Fred Bowden was an Electrician in 1978, when he had a Taylor Hull with a Johnson and ran Mod VP. It was at about this time that Fred got layed off. His brother, Larry, was a sherrif in LA County and an executive with an insurance company. They decided to buy a small piece of dirt where a freeway off ramp had just been made. Basically, the idea was to make enough money, for Fred, until he could go back to work as an electrician. Well, they made more than wages and Bowden Development was born. Through the rumor mill, I heard they built more than 300 homes last year.

Todd had been a fan since 1978 when he was five or six. His mother says his first signed (Autographed) picture from a boat driver was signed Ron Hill.....Todd tells me, he doesn't know if that is true...

Anyway, Fred bought Todd a Gran Prix Sport C and Todd drove it flawlessly. At the time, I said, "Man that Gran Prix is a hell of a boat." Not giving Todd really any credit. Todd moved to SST 60 where he also had several Gran Prix hulls but I never saw one of them out of shape when Todd was at the wheel.

Todd co-drove several Parkers when he was 21 ish... The Bowden Development Team ran APR "The Super League" for two or three years. Where he basically dominated. At this same time he broke all kinds of KILO RECORDS in OPC.

He's won the Parker (Shortened) Enduro just about everytime the last 6-8 years.

He has won several Formual One races. He was second in PROP points this year. Through it all, I never heard him bad mouth anyone. I've never seen him get mad at his team. He is a very humble young man. They (Bowden Family) have used Gran Prix boat almost exclusivly.

Mother, Diane, comes to all the races and is always WONDERFUL to everyone. They are a famliy that know how to work. They know how to play. Developing your OWN DESIGN isn't easy.

Fred has helped many a young racer, including my son. Fred's passion for boat racing carries over to Todd.

I should add: Fred didn't always run an old boat in MOD VP He had some of the hottest MOD VP's to ever hit the race course.

Tood has paid his dues. He's come from the smallest OPC Class to the biggest, he has to be consdered one of the best.....

Brother Larry, Todd's uncle, died two seasons ago and it was difficult for the family. But they continue to be a close family and continue to be true friends to boat racing...

helmetguru
01-13-2003, 12:40 AM
that is a long list for sure, and most of those guys are above average drivers, since tunnel boats are so difficult to master it usually attracts the more skilled.

if you're going to rate them as a top five then throw out almost all those guys. my top five was built on watching them all race in different parts of the world against different types of competition in different conditions in different classes of boats.

for the thousands of guys who have raced tunnel boats to be considered one of the greats, they would have had to have a stellar career, and very few have done that, probably the biggest reason is up until the late 80's the shelf life of a high speed boat racer wasn't that long.

bush seebold molinari stevenson thibodeaux....bada bing

BK
01-13-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by helmetguru
for the thousands of guys who have raced tunnel boats to be considered one of the greats, they would have had to have a stellar career, and very few have done that, probably the biggest reason is up until the late 80's the shelf life of a high speed boat racer wasn't that long.


Bingo

T2x
01-13-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Mark75H
Chris Bush
Bill Seebold
Renato Molinari
Ken Stevenson
Gene Thibodeaux
Ted May
Cesare Scotti
JR Saffold
Bob Wartinger
Rick Hoffman
Tracy Hawkins
Red Hindman
Mike Seebold
Greg Foster
Jimbo McConnell
Bill Sirois
Harold Eis
Jack Oxley
Todd Bowden
Max Toler
Buck Thornton
Benny Robertson
Terry Rinker
Jason Campbell
Tim Seebold
Chris Fairchild
Geoff Briggs
Bob Herring
John Sanders
Ron Hill
Spencer Dunn
Mark Rotharmel
Oley Berkis
Ted Gryguc
Lee Davies
Cees Van Der Velden
Kenny Kitson
Earl Bentz


Ya gotta luv this.......................All these posts....all these names..and none of us has been moved to include........

The Tarboro Flash

You guys really do know what you're talking about;)


T2x..........deserving of at least top 2 placement under the category"American drivers racing on the Canadian Mercury team"

P.S...................There were 2 of us.

Mark75H
01-13-2003, 09:10 PM
The omission of "his Reggieness" was an accident, I thought he was on there. Who put that name on him? Mel Zikes called Ron Hill "Jumbo" when Ron codrove with Jimbo so he could say it was "Jimbo and Jumbo"

brianT2
01-14-2003, 12:30 AM
merc ad featuring "the reggie" came out of a '77 owensboro hydrofair program. i remember the nashville races that year 1) dad got pitched out of that mccall in the first turn at the start of the SJ race, probably good i didn't see that from where i was at, 2) jerry reed singer/co-star in "smokey and the bandit" was there before the races

gemini
01-14-2003, 08:35 AM
Reggie might not have been the greatest driver on earth but he did have the "Greatest Show" on earth at times. At the Owensboro race a big Lincoln pulled up in the pit area near the launching ramp and out of the back seat popped Reggie. He stood there a few seconds and 2 black guys appeared from the car with his life jacket and put it on him. I think they also would lift him into the boat so he wouldn't get wet or whatever. That was just his style in those days. There's nothing like it today.

T2x
01-14-2003, 12:04 PM
The first time I saw Reggie he pulled up with a red metalflake and white Glastron Molinari at a race in Virginia, as I recall......He was towing the rig with a Corvette. The buzz in the pits was....(1) this was certainly no rocket scientest..........and (2) definitely a show off.

Having spent much time with "His Reggieness" including racing and wedged in a TV announcing booth with him for the 2000 APBA offshore racing season......I can say with authority...... the original 2 conclusions were fairly accurate.


T2x

T2x
01-14-2003, 12:09 PM
By the way, I wound up with that "Spirit of 76" T-3 Molinari pictured.........after someone at Mercury got the bright idea to cant the forward section of the port sponson outboard. This caused the boat to turn left "automatically" when you dropped the nose.......... a great idea for a short course....unless you slowed in a straightaway.......

After two non voluntary excursions into the center of a race course on Lake Hopatcong....we redid the sponson. I ran the boat in Havasu in 78 or 79.......and lost the sponson shoe altogether.......... R.I.P.


T2x

helmetguru
01-14-2003, 05:16 PM
i wish we could get a starting grid together like that, too bad different guys lived in different eras...could you imagine a grid like this:?
1. Chris Bush
2. Bill Seebold
3. Jimbo McConnell
4. Renato Molinari
5. Bob Hering
6. Ken Stevenson
7. Scott Gillman
8. Mike Seebold
9. Cees VanDer Velden
10. Bob Spalding
11. Micheal Werner
12. Cesare Scotti
13. Geoff Briggs
14. James Beard
15. John Hill
16. Bill Sirois
17. Jonathan Jones
18. Johnny Sanders
19. Ben Robertson
20. Gene Thibodeaux

that would be a great race.

T2x
01-14-2003, 05:20 PM
I didn't know James Beard raced...................... in a Cougar tunnel hull?

The rest of those guys probably all raced against most of the others at one time or another. Chris Bush may have been too late for the majority.

Ron Hill
01-14-2003, 08:52 PM
Well, Renato would lead the first lap.....Now, there was a time that it was believed that the person to leasd the first lap of the Six Hours of Paris would not be the winner, and drivers actually slowed to allow someone else to lead.....but, that was before RENATO'S time...

Did I Billy Don Pruitt's name in that mix??? Seems to me, if we're to have a REAL ENDURANCE RACE, you need a few that understand street fights....

Herring and Robertson would tangle early...but both would end up in another ride before the day was over and could still end up winning... In fact, Robertson might take out two rides before he got into the third...

Jimbo and me, we'd be mushing our way....if you ever driven to Needles....you know there is no fast way there... might as well take your time....Needles will be there when you get there!!!


Cees would catch Renato about the first fuel stop....

Ron Hill
01-14-2003, 11:30 PM
ADD:

How could anyone really leave Fred Hauenstein, Jr. off that list?

Freddy is/was an engineering nerd... always messing with motors. He got his degrees in aeronautical and mechanical engineering.

He started Co driving with me. He never was given much seat time because I did all the testing. But, by 1978 Parker, he had been doing test drving for OMC, who he worked for at the time. At 34, I felt I was heading downhill. (I had two kids, MOD VP was catching my eye...) Fred was quicker in '78 than I.

After our Parker win, Fred went to work for Mercury. He was also driving for Mercury. At some Alabama race, he and Mr. Bill pulled a double blow over where Fred ended up with a broken hand. No blame was ever placed, but Seebold was Number One, at the time, and employees were not suppose to be "Blowing the doors off" the company's Number One Man...

So, Fred took a back seat...basically retired from driving... so he could follow his first love and that WAS ENGINEERING... Fred has been past APBA President and is very respected and important in UIM.

He did drive a few times after the Seeebold/Hauenstein Alabama Crash....His last effort was testing an S-3000 (When no one knew about S-3000's) during a Parker race when the transom pulled out and he did a two and half in the air and ended up stuck in the mud...with a throttle wire through his leg. Had he not been in the mud along the shore (That is where the boat flew) he would have been a boat racing statistic.

The truth is Fred won many APBA National Championship where Bill Seebold finished behind him. Fred won the John Ward Thophy Race for 500 CC Outboards..something Seebold never did.

Fred drove for Barry Woods, and turned the fasted laps any Scotti turned at Parker, until a sponson runner came off and almost decapitated Fred....Fred had the savy of a Tony Sewart. He came from Sprint Racing but he could drive all day. Fred single handedly lead the Parker Enduro for 6 HOURS one year, only to have he bottom blow out with 30 minutes to go...

Fred was never a "TAKER" from the Sport. He always gave more than he took. Brother Jim was NEVER considered a good driver....but everyone loved him...Brother Donny, was the best driver in the family. He just couldn't seem to wake up in time to go to the driver's meeting or remember which day the race was....

If you ever saw Rich Fuchlin, Bill Rucker, John Soto, Harry Bartolomei, Walter Huhn, Ron Hill, Dave Nichols and Fred Hauenstein on the same race course with 13 foot DeSilva's with 40 cubic inch Quincy's racing side by side for five laps on a half mile track....You'd know Hauenstein can DRIVE ANYTHING...Don't ever forget this is were Billy Seebold came from also.

Look at DePue stats, Hauenstein has more wins than Seebold.

helmetguru
01-14-2003, 11:36 PM
yep big fred is definatley deserved of being on the list, like i said there are probably alot of others who i left off but should be there...without showing too much partiality i would put my dad bud in there somewhere, he drove his ass for and always pushed the limits wether it was the CCC Cougar or his Formula-100 Molinari or whatever he strapped on to go boat racing. He never had the huge win but he was damn close a few times only to have some minor BS take him out. He was the quickest off the line I ever saw with a Super Strangler and never drove dirty. yes bud would make the list.

T2x
01-15-2003, 08:46 AM
Let's go back to Jon Culver...........drove everything from Stock outboard, inboards, OPC vees, OPC tunnels.....and won the 136 mile Albany/NY race........in 1947 at 13 years of age.....in a kneeldown.

Then won the 60's Hudson River event....twice.

T2x

Jeff_G
01-15-2003, 11:02 AM
It depends on the perspective. Was talking to Reggie and Robertson when an emp[loyee came in. reggie introduced Benny as the guy who taught Reggie how to drive a V bottom and he taught Benny how to drive a tunnel.
For all his shortcommings Benny is one of the most talented drivers in anything he raced. 3 times World F1 Champion and arm fulls of national titles in NOA and APBA and records, both in tunnels and V bottoms. When he went to Offshore he started cleaning clock there too. A lot from his set up skills. No a great rough water driver but never the less a great offshore driver. Unfortunately politics has interfered in that deal.

Was at Pittsburg 3 years ago, the last time Benny drove a tunnel. He broke and didn't make the final. We stood on the sea wall watching. His remark watching Mike Seebold was he is one of the best drivers ever to race.

Never heard Benny compliment anyone like that in all the years I have known him. Praise indeed.

Interesting to talk to him about some other drivers skills... very funny. If he thinks you're good he will say so.

The thing about Benny is he can do it all, drive, build a boat, even set up.

We built a new composit boat for Cees for UIM F1. Sent it over and the boat passed Capalinni, until he dilerberately took it out. mandana just wasn't agressive enough to drive and the OMC motors weren't up to snuff.

Raceman
01-15-2003, 09:33 PM
I agree with you on Benny. As a matter of fact, I thought of him right along with Billy when the list first popped up. It is a shame about him and the politics of offshore. I never knew him very well, but he seemed like he wasn't the type to hold anything back. If he didn't like it he said so, and if you believe the magazines I guess that's where the problems with offshore came in. Somebody close to Merc told me a long time ago that he probably would've been a factory driver if he'd been a little more discreet with his opinions. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but it seems to fit the profile. He sure has an impressive list of credentials given the fact that he was a privateer.

helmetguru
01-18-2003, 07:29 PM
i always liked ben's driving style and even painted a helmet for him a few years back for his offshore team.

i remember in Pittsburgh a while back when Ben was driving the IBM Burgess boat in qualifying, he came round the single pin corner in front of the pits and whe he accelerated off the pin the boat hung in the air about a foot off the water for what seemed like a hundred feet, just hung there gaining speed and you could hear the engine whining out, it was bitchin.

i think ben deserves big credit for racing V8's in pre capsule days...

Raceman
01-18-2003, 08:00 PM
Let's not forget also that Benny was instrumental in developing the capsule.

helmetguru
01-19-2003, 11:00 PM
i'm not sure how instrumental he was but he tested quite a few.

we have to give a big YAHOO to Chris Hodges for his work in capsule development, he is the first to really succeed at it, he even strapped himself in and let it be dropped from a crane to test the bouyancy.

Velden, Molinari, Seebold, Burgess all soon followed but Hodges was the first.

T2x
02-04-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Raceman
It is a shame about him and the politics of offshore. I never knew him very well, but he seemed like he wasn't the type to hold anything back. If he didn't like it he said so, and if you believe the magazines I guess that's where the problems with offshore came in.

Unfortunately for Bennie he ran headlong into two phenomenon in Offshore:

1. The hysteria of the Factory class racers who consider any speed trick or driving skill "cheating"....and then organize a very whiny witch hunt to demolish the "offender". Benny did get caught with "fat" motors....... but doesn't every Fountain come with at least a nitrous bottle?......

2. The unwritten LLC rule that states no one can actually be talented unless properly sponsored by an "approved" (subject to change without notice) manufacturer.

Benny did state his opinions rather crudely...... and occasionally partied a little heavily. Bottom line he was better on calm courses than the rest of wannabes........ but often evaporated in rough water.

T2x

T2x
02-04-2003, 09:44 PM
Ron:

Unfortunately Bennie was a last minute replacement driver for a Factory 2 boat with non spec ignition timing at the World's in St Pete. This was treated like a cross between the Lindbergh kidnapping and the Manson murders. I can still hear the screaming.......er whining.

As much as I love "real" boat racing, OPC, inboards, etc........ there are/were a few guys in offshore worth watching: JT, Joey Imprescia, Jerry Gilbreath, Felix Serralles, Sirois, Stevie Curtis......... come to think of it, all those guys have/had an outboard or two in their past.

T2x

Ron Hill
02-04-2003, 10:36 PM
I didn't know about the "timing deal" but did know about the North Carolina kilo motors...

It seems that thing go around in circles. I remember when Betty Cook almost killed Offshore because Offshore had been a "Whiskey Drinking/Cigar Smoking MAN's Sport." Then when cats came in...now politics...that guy from Dayton...maybe he only worked on the Hydro Globe in Dayton...Gene Whipp is what is needed.

POPBRA out west here has been up and down....

I have confidence that there will be some real Offshore Drivers again...but then again where will they have come from?

It may be like the space shuttle, very hard to replace history.

I ain't got the "bread" or the desire to get in the middle of stuff like "Offshore" right now. It would be fun to run some kind of 38-40 footer with a couple of EFI 540's (Bravo Drives) with capsules on a Vee hull....but things like Factory II look like a major "F reewayWreck" looking to happen...Reminds me of the early days of FJ.....those guys were crazy..fast light hulls..props "blowing out" all the time...

T2x
02-05-2003, 02:25 PM
I always thought the FE guys were crazier.........no horsepower...so they used pure aggression......

T2x

Scot Keller
02-24-2003, 01:04 PM
A few more names for consideration:

Billy Schumacher – Well know for success in unlimited hydroplanes, placed third his first time out at Havasu followed by a Paris win with John Sanders.

Mike Wallace – After beating the best in inboard enduro driving “Tiny Tim”, he won Long Beach the first time he raced a tunnel boat.

Dick Sherrer – Boat builder and Parker Enduro winner.

Scot Keller
02-24-2003, 08:47 PM
Anybody remember Brian Dailey (sp)? He drove a Yamaha powered Mod U in the early 90's.

Scot

helmetguru
02-25-2003, 11:45 PM
i have one of those brian daley yamaha model boats around here somewhere, wish they would have made it a burgess but it turned out to be a flyer, oh well, still a cool tunnel boat pulled by a bronco, how do you slam a model bronco? any ideas??

Zebug32
06-22-2006, 07:31 PM
Anybody remember Brian Dailey (sp)? He drove a Yamaha powered Mod U in the early 90's.

Scot

I sure do. Too bad Yamaha decided not to continue the development.

willabee
07-14-2006, 12:20 PM
If I rolled my top five into one name, it would come out......

William James Molinotti - but I would call him Mac :)

Got it figured out?

BK
07-14-2006, 01:18 PM
Bill Seebold, Jimbo McConnell, Renato Molinari, Cesare Scotti.


Am I right?






By the way, coming back to this thread after many years, I see "helmetguru" on here a couple of posts back. Buddy passed away 3 years ago last month. Sure do miss that feisty guy - he and I used to play a trivia game called "who drove that number". He was always the highest scorer. :( Last time to see him was Aug 2002 in St Louis, when we met Massimo Scotti for the first time. (son of Cesare).
Now Buddy can finally meet Cesare face to face. So sad he's gone.

willabee
07-14-2006, 01:53 PM
Bill Seebold, Jimbo McConnell, Renato Molinari, Cesare Scotti.


Am I right?

BK - you only submitted four and one of them is wrong :p you're missing two,please try again :)

I don't believe I ever met Buddy, but from what I've read here, sounds like he would have been a fun guy to sit and bench race with......it's nice when people remember their friends like that.

2us70
07-14-2006, 02:06 PM
Bill Sirois has to be one.

willabee
07-14-2006, 02:11 PM
Bill Sirois has to be one.

In this contest you have to go for all five, one name at a time is not permitted ;).

T2x
07-15-2006, 08:21 PM
Willabee:

1. Bill Sirois

2. Bill Seebold

3. Jimbo Mc Connell

4. Cesar Scotti

5. Renato Molinari.



Next 5 would be

Earl Robert Van der Hillbold

Your move.

T2x

BK
07-15-2006, 09:42 PM
Well, he did say one of mine was wrong - but I can't imagine taking any name from my list -- but I'll make an attempt:

Bill Sirois
Bill Seebold
James Merten
Renato Molinari
Cesare Scotti



Am I closer?


My guess on Rich's would be:

Earl Bentz
Robert Nordskog
Cees Van der Velden
Ron Hill
Bill Seebold Jr





Willabee:

1. Bill Sirois

2. Bill Seebold

3. Jimbo Mc Connell

4. Cesar Scotti

5. Renato Molinari.



Next 5 would be

Earl Robert Van der Hillbold

Your move.

T2x

T2x
07-17-2006, 08:09 AM
My guess on Rich's would be:

Earl Bentz
Robert Nordskog
Cees Van der Velden
Ron Hill
Bill Seebold Jr

You got two of mine wrong as well.......

Hint: Billy was on the first five....the other one you'll have to hunt for.

willabee
07-17-2006, 08:38 AM
Next 5 would be

Earl Robert Van der Hillbold

Your move.

T2x

T2x / BK - both of you are missing one, but if you get together, you have the Fab Five.

Earl Robert Van der Hillbold is :
Earl Bentz - Robert Hering - Cees Van der Velden - Ron Hill - Mike Seebold.....do I win the prize?

T2x
07-17-2006, 09:56 AM
T2x / BK - both of you are missing one, but if you get together, you have the Fab Five.

Earl Robert Van der Hillbold is :
Earl Bentz - Robert Hering - Cees Van der Velden - Ron Hill - Mike Seebold.....do I win the prize?


I'm still stuck...the only change I can see would be Mertens for McConnell?


As far as my next tier......... You nailed it...but then again great minds think alike.

T2x:D

willabee
07-17-2006, 02:56 PM
Not exactly alike (but great minds nonetheless :rolleyes: ) ........

I'm still stuck...the only change I can see would be Mertens for McConnell?
As far as my next tier......... You nailed it...but then again great minds think alike.
T2x:D
William James Molinotti...aka Mac
Bill Sirois - Jim Merten - Renato Molinari - Cesare Scotti - Jimbo McConnell

Before you start tossing rotten eggs my way, the obvious question is "how can you have a top five that doesn't include Bill Seebold" and the answer is "you probably can't"......how's that for a contradiction of my own list? Seebold might have been the best on the planet in a single engine tunnel, but all of these guys (and several not listed) were real talents, so I looked at success in multi engine tunnels. Unfortunately for Seebold, he spent his time in a 20' Jones and, I don't care who was driving, those boats just couldn't run with the stuff that the others used to win races. Also, I'd be surprised if any of these guys could throw a 7 liter hydro around the course as well as Seebold did, but the original question was "tunnel drivers".

Sooooo, I have opened my big yap and I guess that makes me fair game...just shoot straight :).

T2x
07-17-2006, 04:29 PM
Not exactly alike (but great minds nonetheless :rolleyes: ) ........

William James Molinotti...aka Mac
Bill Sirois - Jim Merten - Renato Molinari - Cesare Scotti - Jimbo McConnell

Before you start tossing rotten eggs my way, the obvious question is "how can you have a top five that doesn't include Bill Seebold" and the answer is "you probably can't"......how's that for a contradiction of my own list? Seebold might have been the best on the planet in a single engine tunnel, but all of these guys (and several not listed) were real talents, so I looked at success in multi engine tunnels. Unfortunately for Seebold, he spent his time in a 20' Jones and, I don't care who was driving, those boats just couldn't run with the stuff that the others used to win races. Also, I'd be surprised if any of these guys could throw a 7 liter hydro around the course as well as Seebold did, but the original question was "tunnel drivers".

Sooooo, I have opened my big yap and I guess that makes me fair game...just shoot straight :).

Okay..........
Here's the counterpoint.........

Billy Seebold was more successful than any of the rest in single engine tunnels,........ so he gets a "1" rank in singles.

I don't recall Cesar Scotti doing anything with multi's...... so Seebold beats him in that regard....or at least ties him.

For that matter Jimbo didn't exactly set the world on fire in multi's either.....

To my knowledge Gene Thibodeaux, Mike Seebold, Tim Seebold and Benny never ran a multi engine tunnel either.

The final question to ponder.........

Are these "tunnels"? 'Cause that would add a whole new dimension to this post.

T2x
07-17-2006, 04:35 PM
The other problem......and Billy Sirois was a good friend of mine.....

The nod for best of all time.....any boat any era

Has to go to Seebold

Mark75H
07-17-2006, 06:02 PM
If you want to compare them head to head go back to the 80's say 82 and 83 for example. Gene had the most wins.I would be interested in seeing the actual numbers each year.

Jeff_G
07-18-2006, 08:07 AM
I don't know where any of you guys came up with Ron Hill in the top 5 :eek:

Bill Seebold
Jimbo McConnell
Bill Sirois (liked him better as a GN driver though)
Mike Seebold
John Hill

Followed by
Ben Robertson
Buck Thornton
R. Molinari
Jim Merten
Cees Van der Velden

T2x
07-18-2006, 09:57 AM
I don't know where any of you guys came up with Ron Hill in the top 5 :eek:

Bill Seebold
Jimbo McConnell
Bill Sirois (liked him better as a GN driver though)
Mike Seebold
John Hill

Followed by
Ben Robertson
Buck Thornton
R. Molinari
Jim Merten
Cees Van der Velden

Remember, this is from an overall perspective from Willabee, whose visability to the sport spans from the very first tunnel hull arriving at Oshkosh in the early 60's to the present day....and includes multi-engines as a major determinent. ( Since I'm equally ancient, I have first hand knowledge here as well).

Once you crank in the multi's the whole landscape changes and Ron Hill was a top competitor in that genre. In addition he kicked serious butt in Paris, Havasu etc, etc, in singles as well.

Cees, Buck, Benny, Gene, John Hill, and Michael simply had no presence in that era...... That doesn't make them better...nor worse...just absent.

The best drivers without regard for singles or twins...... IMHO.....

1. Billy Seebold
2. Billy Sirois
3. Renato

And this is tough because Sirois DESTROYED Seebold in multi's........ and in offshore. Seebold's utter dominance in singles, stock and Alky, and inboard hydros...and the length and breadth of his career (he could still win today) put him on top. In addition at his peak , with equal equipment, for a season...nobody.....nobody...could beat him consistently.

Could a guy driving over his head...or ..... with a piece of luck beat him at a race or two?...sure...but over time...if you're picking a lead driver for a season or beyond..... if you didn't pick Seebold.... you were passing over the best.

As far as Sirois, he was an amazing talent, monstrously innovative, approachable, and competitive in anything he drove.

One more thing....... Kenny Kitson used to drive Wings...for hours...with one hand on the twin throttles, one hand on the wheel, (no rest for either)..and his right foot in a spring loaded wire stirrup controlling the aeleron.... (under constant tension).....and win!

Now THAT"S a driver.

T2x

willabee
07-18-2006, 11:32 AM
Counter/counterpoint......


Billy Seebold was more successful than any of the rest in single engine tunnels,........ so he gets a "1" rank in singles.

I don't recall Cesar Scotti doing anything with multi's...... so Seebold beats him in that regard....or at least ties him.

For that matter Jimbo didn't exactly set the world on fire in multi's either.....

To my knowledge Gene Thibodeaux, Mike Seebold, Tim Seebold and Benny never ran a multi engine tunnel either.

The final question to ponder.........

Are these "tunnels"? 'Cause that would add a whole new dimension to this post.
Agreed, I believe that I've already said that Seebold might have been the best on the planet in a single engine tunnel...

Scotti winning Havasu (remember that little outboard world championship?) in 1969 isn't doing something with a multi in your book?...

Jimbo winning the OPC Nationals driving a surfboard with a pair of Evinrudes isn't hot?...

I don't know of the other guys you mentioned driving a multi either, but they weren't in my top five (or my top ten which I'll get to shortly) anyway, so it didn't matter...

Yes, since there is no other place to put those boats with two sponsons and a tunnel separating the two, I'd say the boats you pictured are tunnels....how does that effect the ratings?

Remember, shoot straight :D

willabee
07-18-2006, 11:56 AM
The other problem......and Billy Sirois was a good friend of mine.....

The nod for best of all time.....any boat any era

Has to go to Seebold

Didn't mean to confuse you by the way they were identified. I just listed the names in the order in which they appear in "William James Molinotti - aka Mac" so you could see where that name came from.....wasn't trying to list them one through five.

BTW - Just read your response to Jeff G......"equally ancient", love it - thanks for the first belly laugh of the day.

Mark75H
07-18-2006, 12:03 PM
Bill Seebold
Jimbo McConnell
Bill Sirois (liked him better as a GN driver though)
Mike Seebold
John Hill

Followed by
Ben Robertson
Buck Thornton
R. Molinari
Jim Merten
Cees Van der Velden
Come on man. Some of those guys only have a couple of race wins. This is about world and national championships. You only got a couple world champs in that list.
Tim, that is delusional.

willabee
07-18-2006, 12:19 PM
I don't know where any of you guys came up with Ron Hill in the top 5 :eek:

I don't think anybody did, although T2x did put him in his second five.

John Hill in your top five is interesting....I met him and his wife in Paris about 1970, very nice people. I thought he always ran OE ( I think that was the class designation), not ON or OZ, and was very successful in that class.

T2x
07-18-2006, 04:01 PM
I don't think anybody did, although T2x did put him in his second five.

John Hill in your top five is interesting....I met him and his wife in Paris about 1970, very nice people. I thought he always ran OE ( I think that was the class designation), not ON or OZ, and was very successful in that class.

I believe that John Hill drove ON/OZ later in his career.

T2x

T2x
07-18-2006, 04:22 PM
Counter/counterpoint......


Scotti winning Havasu (remember that little outboard world championship?) in 1969 isn't doing something with a multi in your book?...

Jimbo winning the OPC Nationals driving a surfboard with a pair of Evinrudes isn't hot?...


Okay so split hairs already!........ Them damn OMC's were so boxy you couldn't tell one engine from two at a distance.....(almost 40 years). Besides everytime an OMC won something, I went into denial.

Tim: There is no doubt that your dad earned a respected position in the pantheon of tunnel drivers...... Please consider that the rest of us are looking at this from a less personal viewpoint...and have our own reasons and basis for our choices. Being included in this group of drivers is of and by itself an honor regardless of position.

Sadly some of us........ (myself included...see 2 adventures below) can only look in from the outside and dream what might have been "if only that damn gust of wind......."

Best wishes

T2x

Bruce Washburn
07-18-2006, 05:02 PM
John Hill also ran Champ and ON which later became F1. He did very well and was a hell of a nice guy.

As far as Benny and Buck not winning major races or Championships both have won their share and both have set world records.
Buck rewrote the records for the original SST 120 class, won St Louis in Prop, AMRA, IOGP several times, won several National Championships and as an independent beat the factories.
Benny also won St.Louis a couple of years, won at the sprint Nationals numerous times, has a couple of high point Championships to his credit, set a couple of World Records etc. I think Benny may still hold the 3/4 mile record. I am sure that Jeff Griggs could fill in the details more. Benny was also one of the best V-bottom drivers around.

There have been many great drivers over the years. As boats changed some adapted to the boats better than others. I only had the chance to see Molinari and Cess run a V-8 one time. The three drivers that have impressed me over time, that I felt had the uncanny ability to drive anything that would float are Sirois, Seebold, and Merten. It is probably because all three spent an abnormal amount of time in race boats for much of their lives. I have seen guys like Chris Bush, Benny, Gene, Buck,Guido, Foster, Mike Seebold, Rinker, Timmy, Sherlock, and numerous others run some great races and have some great seasons. Torrente may also make it to the list in the next few years.
Who the top five of all time are would be very difficult to determine. There are two many factors to consider. It may be easier to break this into decades 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's,2000 to present. The name that would show up in at least 3 of those decades on the top five (four counting offspring) would be Seebold.

Mark75H
07-18-2006, 05:08 PM
Tim, its getting a little long in the tooth and it is starting to look like you are "trolling" for enemies.

Jeff_G
07-18-2006, 07:05 PM
Tim, this is an open discussion of who each person thinks should be in their top 5 or ten. Doesn't make anyone's list right or wrong. Some have reasons for including some and leaving out others, it is simply their own opinion. We are allowed our opinion aren't we?

Jeff_G
07-18-2006, 07:10 PM
Bruce, Benny won 3 F1 World Championships, set the fastest qualifying lap ever, over 140 mph, has numerous World and APBA and NOA records for both kilos and competition. In addition he has won numerous National titles in numerous classes in both APBA and NOA. High point championships and was inducted into the APBA Hall of Champions twice.
Now he is on the same track in Offshore.
Heck you guys call him, I'm sure he would be glad to answer about his titles. :D

spn#43
07-19-2006, 05:06 AM
Greatest of all time, as record shows, like him or not is 9 time world champion and current record holder Guido Cappellini period!

T2x
07-19-2006, 06:13 AM
Greatest of all time, as record shows, like him or not is 9 time world champion and current record holder Guido Cappellini period!

Ummm...let me think......uh.........hmmmm.......

no.

T2x

willabee
07-19-2006, 11:47 AM
By my unofficial count, there are eleven lists posted on this thread and ten of them have Bill Seebold in the top five....of those ten, five and one half (there was one tie) have Seebold listed as #1. So, I feel like the kid marching in a parade, and when his group marchs past his Mother and her friends, she says "Look at that, everyone in Johnny's group is out of step except him!".:) Looks like my driver name needs a little tweaking - he is still William James Molinotti,but now everyone calls him Mr. Bill :cool:.

Bill Sirois - Jim Merten - Renato Molinari - Cesare Scotti - Bill Seebold ..........Willabee's Fab Five :D

T2x
07-19-2006, 12:00 PM
By my unofficial count, there are eleven lists posted on this thread and ten of them have Bill Seebold in the top five....of those ten, five and one half (there was one tie) have Seebold listed as #1. So, I feel like the kid marching in a parade, and when his group marchs past his Mother and her friends, she says "Look at that, everyone in Johnny's group is out of step except him!".:) Looks like my driver name needs a little tweaking - he is still William James Molinotti,but now everyone calls him Mr. Bill :cool:.

Bill Sirois - Jim Merten - Renato Molinari - Cesare Scotti - Bill Seebold ..........Willabee's Fab Five :D

I think you may want to rename him......

William James Macinari

I'm thinking Jimbo trumps Cesare.

T2x

spn#43
07-19-2006, 06:50 PM
Billy has forgotten more about driving tunnel boats than Guido will ever know. Now I will give him the BIG BALLS award, in this case it's not good it's crazy reckless driving.


:rolleyes:
Like I suggested, you can like him or hate him, but his record speaks for him and nobody can deny that! So far he has 9 UIM World titles and BIG #10 is in the works against “unlimited” racing budget of Emirates team with Scott Gillman at the wheel and the others, plus he forced a lot of “great” drivers in to early retirement only because they could not beat him! He is a maker of the best (most successful in last 10-15 years) Formula 1 boat and all the speed records that he holds (like, over 160 mph in F1 boat, etc) only reason why people don’t give him credit is because hi is current driver. In about 10-15 years people are going to tell stories about him and make him a legend like he really is.
Nobody has done what he’s done so far in Formula 1 and I don’t think anybody will ever come close, so just give the credit where credit is due and leave personal feelings on the side.
PS; I don’t like Michael Schumacher for example, and I can talk all day about greats like Senna; Prost; Pike; Mansel… but the fact is Schumacher is the best F1 car driver ever just like Guido is in his own, so….get it?
:) :) ;)

PPS; I’m not putting anybody down, Bill is a one of the greatest legends of boat racing but at some point we have to accept new legends, we don’t have to wait for their carrier to end to do so.

willabee
07-20-2006, 08:15 AM
Bill is a one of the greatest legends of boat racing

Just curious, who would be on your top five list?

Raceman
07-20-2006, 06:30 PM
Benny won 3 F1 World Championships, set the fastest qualifying lap ever, over 140 mph, has numerous World and APBA and NOA records for both kilos and competition. In addition he has won numerous National titles in numerous classes in both APBA and NOA. High point championships and was inducted into the APBA Hall of Champions twice.
Now he is on the same track in Offshore.
Heck you guys call him, I'm sure he would be glad to answer about his titles. :D

I was waiting for that. I started to put up a post about Benny's World Championships, but was afraid my ole memory had failed me yet again, since nobody else had mentioned it.

Y'all can correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think Benny won one or more of the World Championships as a PRIVATEER, with discontinued OMC V8 stuff and whatever parts and support equipment he could scrounge from whereever.

spn#43
07-20-2006, 08:41 PM
Just curious, who would be on your top five list?

I don’t know…but top 3 would definitely be Guido, Bill and Renato in any order, I don’t care, but without any of these three, Formula 1 racing and any tunnel boat racing would not be what it is today.
When I start thinking about #4 and #5 too many great names come to my mind and I just can’t separate them, so I’ll just leave it at top three.

texnine
07-21-2006, 06:05 PM
I cringe at entering in on a discussion about top 5 anything when they're were so many great drivers over the years but here goes. First let me say I give my list with a total bias in it so take it as you will. I will say I have had the opportunity in my lifetime to see many of the drivers you all have listed drive so I at least have a somewhat educated opinion. 1. Bill Seebold 2. Jimbo McConnell 3. Renato Molinari 4. Gene Thibodaux 5. Benny Robertson. Bill was the best I ever saw without doubt. Jimbo made OMC racing back in the day. Renato was a huge factor with putting tunnel boat racing on the map. Benny's records and accomplishments speak for themselves. And my somewhat bias pick is my brother Gene and I'll try to justify. Anyone who knew Gene well realized he raced with inferior equipment to Billy and Jimbo for most of his career. It wasn't until his Second Effort V-8 program that he got every bit as good as equipment as even Benny had as a team mate. What Gene really specialized in was being a great mechanic and could set up a tunnel boat better than anyone I've ever been around. So anyway, that's my two cents and once again there is no right list or wrong list because of all the great drivers that have come and gone.

spn#43
07-22-2006, 08:23 AM
This is copy & paste from UIM record book;

CLASS FORMULA 1

2005 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
2004 GILLMAN Scott USA
2003 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
2002 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
2001 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
2000 GILLMAN Scott USA
1999 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
1998 JONES Jonathan GREAT BRITAIN
1997 GILLMAN Scott USA
1996 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
1995 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
1994 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
1993 CAPPELLINI Guido ITALY
1992 BOCCA Fabrizio ITALY
1991 JONES Jonathan GREAT BRITAIN
1990 HILL John GREAT BRITAIN
1989
1988
1987
1986 THIBODAUX Gene USA
1985 SPALDING Bob GREAT BRITAIN
1984 MOLINARI Renato ITALY
1983 MOLINARI Renato ITALY
1982 JENKINS Roger UK
1981 MOLINARI Renato ITALY

FORMULA GRAND PRIX

1989 JONES Jonathan GREAT BRITAIN
1988 BUSH Chris USA
1987 SEEBOLD Bill USA
1986 JONES Jonathan GREAT BRITAIN
1985 HILL John GREAT BRITAIN
1984 HILL John GREAT BRITAIN
1983 WERNER Michael GERMANY

speed records;

CLASS R.5000 FROZEN - DECEMBER 31, 1994
3298 Speed G.CAPPELLINI ITA 1996 DAC MASERATI 134,682 MPH 216,702 KMH

FORMULA 1 - 2 Lit.

3587 Speed GUIDO CAPPELLINI ITA 2005 DAC MERCURY 144,838 MPH 233,089 KMH

FORMULA 1 - 2.5 Lit.
3588 Speed GUIDO CAPPELLINI ITA 2005 DAC MERCURY 159,234 MPH 256,256 KMH

FORMULA 1 - 3 Lit.
3586 Speed GUIDO CAPPELLINI ITA 2005 DAC MERCURY 152,200 MPH 244,937 KMH

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Now, if Guido does not deserve to be in top three I don't know who does.:) :) ;)

EC RIDER
07-22-2006, 11:43 AM
Gonna have to let the Guido thing go. I think the simple fact is that the competion Guido races against is not even close to what it was in the 80's. Hell we all watch that F1 crap on speed. Those other guys (execpt Scott) can't even get out of their own way.

I have to agree..........

Besides If the Italians really had great drivers...they wouldn't need Michael Schumacher.......:D

T2x

spn#43
07-22-2006, 12:50 PM
Gonna have to let the Guido thing go. I think the simple fact is that the competion Guido races against is not even close to what it was in the 80's. Hell we all watch that F1 crap on speed. Those other guys (execpt Scott) can't even get out of their own way.

:eek: :confused: :eek: :confused:
Yea....ok.......

Jonathan JONES
Michael WERNER
Fabrizio BOCCA
Steve KERTON
Mike SEEBOLD
Massimo ROGGIERO
Philippe DESSERTENNE
Mark WILSON
Perti LEPPALA
Francesco CANTANDO
Mark ROLLS
Goran KARLOF
Sami SELIO
Laith PHARAON
Scott GILLMAN

Just some of the drivers that finished behind Guido in his nine championship wining years….wouldn’t exactly say that they can’t even get out of their own way.

Raceman
07-22-2006, 04:09 PM
Only thing I can say is, it'd be interesting to see how Cappellini's record would've been if he'd spent most of his career over here racing our boys.;)

spn#43
07-22-2006, 06:23 PM
Only thing I can say is, it'd be interesting to see how Cappellini's record would've been if he'd spent most of his career over here racing our boys.;)

I would love to see him here in Champ Boat series.

Bruce Washburn
07-24-2006, 07:32 AM
Guido did race in St. Louis in the mid 80's. I think 86 or so. At that time he was known as Crashalinni:eek: He has improved greatly since the early years.

T2x
07-24-2006, 08:24 AM
Only thing I can say is, it'd be interesting to see how Cappellini's record would've been if he'd spent most of his career over here racing our boys.;)



I'd love to see him race over here where he wouldn't have the best engines, boats and props.

T2x

T2x
07-24-2006, 08:25 AM
I'd love to see him race over here where he wouldn't have the best engines, boats and props.

T2x


Or I'd love to see Michael Schumacher drive a tunnel boat.

T2x:D :D :D

Bruce Washburn
07-24-2006, 10:12 AM
I am not a big Guido Fan, but He does do a good job on several fronts. He has developed a great boat (especially his boat) He spends alot of time testing to find the best set-up. The other element is that he spends the cash to have the best props and motors. I also agree with Tim that he has big balls and is not afraid to take you out. Could Guido beat Mike Seebold, Rinker, Tim Seebold,Fairchild or Torrente headsup with even equipment? I have no idea. I think he is a good driver but Probably not any better than some of the guys above but it would beinteresting to find out.

Jeff_G
07-25-2006, 09:55 AM
While I would not put Guido in my top ten, he has done a fantastic job doing what he has done. In any form of racing the one with the best equipment will be be at the top, it is hard to win with inferior equipment.
I do respect SPN's opinion. Here again his opinion is just as important and should carry as much respect as any other. Name calling just isn't right.
To disagree is great, to put down isn't.

Maybe multiple threads of the top ten multi engine, single engine, MOD VP, true V-bottoms, or by era. Should have enough to keep everyone discussing. :)

willabee
07-25-2006, 11:26 AM
To disagree is great, to put down isn't.

RIGHT ON.......

Well, I'm sticking with William James Molinotti - aka Mr. Bill as my Fab Five ..... Molinari - Sirois - Merten - Bill Seebold - Scotti is the order I would put them in today, but I can almost guarantee you that if you ask me about that order tomorrow, it will change.....they were all such great drivers (and knew how to set a boat up to get maximum performance out of it).

To make a Terrific Ten, I need a second driver name.....I'll call him James Robert Bensan - aka Woody

Any guesses on who these five are? :)

T2x
07-25-2006, 12:24 PM
[QUOTE=willabee]RIGHT ON.......


To make a Terrific Ten, I need a second driver name.....I call him James Robert Bensan - aka Woody

Any guesses on who these five are? :)[/QUOTE

Is it BensAN or BensON?

T2x

willabee
07-25-2006, 12:30 PM
Is it BensAN or BensON?

BensAN - just as orginally written - have you ever known me to make a mistake :)

spn#43
07-25-2006, 04:55 PM
I do respect SPN's opinion. Here again his opinion is just as important and should carry as much respect as any other. Name calling just isn't right.
To disagree is great, to put down isn't.
:)

What happened,….:confused: :confused: did I miss something???????
That’s why I hate censorship, I probably got called out and I didn’t even get a chance to see it!:mad: :mad:
Who ever it was, please if you have any OO call me any time on 954-295-2310 or page@f1racer.com and tell me personally what you got, but I won’t hold my breath cause you are just not man enough probably.
Just to make my point clear, I don’t know, you don’t know nobody knows who is the BEST driver ever, but the Greatest or most successful driver in the history of Formula 1 boat racing is Mr. Guido Cappellini, and if you don’t believe me just open up record books and educate your self.. The fact that Mr. Guido has the best boat out there is just making him even greater because he makes his own boats, and if somebody thinks that he is better than Mr. Guido then he should try to make better boat and go out there and beat him, but that has not happened yet..
I don’t know who works on Mr. Guido’s engines but main competition is running Anderson engine which is known to be the best engine that you can buy……fact are just the facts and there is nothing that can beat that!
:p :p

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i24/spn43/0110404916-153555-170771-66522-0-fi.jpg

1BadAction
07-25-2006, 05:10 PM
Funny how someone from the old school makes an accomplishment and its because of their skill...

Yet someone from today blows those records away and its only because of their equipment. :confused:

ssmith007
07-25-2006, 05:24 PM
Perspective is such a wonderful thing. Great discussion.

Jeff_G
07-26-2006, 03:51 PM
Actually when I look at the past few decades UIM F1 has become a mostly a European venue, yes I know they run the far east and middle east. My point is in the 70's and 80's F1 or OZ or it's name at the time, was truly a world wide sport. The Europeans came here the Americans went there. True world wide competition. Today we run Champboat in the US and F1 in Europe. The two don't mingle.
If we use some of the same reasoning as my "European" friend SPN then lets add up all the Mod U and American F1 and Champ Championships and throw them into the fray. Then it really becomed diluted or at least mixed up.
I have never seen Guido race in person. I have seen countless hours of him on TV. Most all of the drivers I and other have listed, I have personally seen race as well as on the tube. I personally think it was harder to win, race and compete and the fields had much more depth back in the late 70's and particularly through the very early 90's than anything today.
Even the type racing was tougher. 20 to 30 boat fields for most major races, all the boats starting at the same time, no two flag start. That was racing, unfortunately it also made the sport much more dangerous. While we have made it safer we have to an extent made it easier. But here again don't get me wrong some of todays drivers are just as talented, just as hard charging as yesterdays drivers, their day to be ranked will come.

spn#43
07-26-2006, 04:01 PM
"European" friend SPN
:eek: :eek:
Thanks for blowing my cover. :D :D :p

T2x
07-27-2006, 06:09 AM
It's not a question of "old school" or "new school". Because the racing series have in many cases become formulaic today, it is now much more important how big your budget is, who your sponsor is, and where you race.

This is not only true in Tunnel boats, but Offshore and Unlimiteds, etc. as well have been infected with golf shirt wearing, politically savvy MBA's who basically overule racing with marketing strategies. Having been active in racing,boat building and broadcasting, my perspective covers a lot of levels. The bottom line is that given the corporate mouths that have to be fed and political agendas, some of us are a bit skeptical of all current "champions".
Back in the day our only worry was trying to wheedle a little extra "oomph" out of engineering (Half the time winding up with a hand grenade for our efforts), or trying to keep Reggie's hat size within the footprint of North Carolina ( A problem which persists today;)). As a result racing today has less innovation, smaller fleets, and frequently only one or two dominant teams.
But, Praise the Lord, Fountain boat sales are up.......

T2x

Raceman
07-27-2006, 07:51 AM
What happened,….:confused: :confused: did I miss something???????
That’s why I hate censorship, I probably got called out and I didn’t even get a chance to see it!


Just so you'll know, the posts you're referring to were removed by the original authors, just as YOU have the priviledge of doing on anything you write.;)

Jeff_G
07-27-2006, 08:11 AM
Tim no hard feelings, even if you are from Texas.

willabee
07-27-2006, 08:39 AM
Because of who I put on my Fab Five list, I was hoping that someone other than me would bring this up, but I haven't seen it yet, so here it is.

One "reason" several people have offered as partial justification to keep Cappellini off of the list is because he builds his own boats, yet they put Seebold and Molinari on their list. I would have thought that someone would have said "Hey, didn't Molinari build his own boats as well as several of the boats he raced against?....and, Hey, didn't Seebold build his own boats as well as....and Hey, come to think of it, didn't Scotti build his own boats as....."....you get the picture.

I don't think being a boat builder is a disqualifier when trying to judge someones ability to drive one. My list doesn't change, just wanted to bring this up.

T2x - I'm disappointed.....go back and check out how I spelled "originally" when I asked if you have ever known me to make a mistake - that was put there for your "keen eye" :)

T2x
07-27-2006, 10:18 AM
T2x - I'm disappointed.....go back and check out how I spelled "originally" when I asked if you have ever known me to make a mistake - that was put there for your "keen eye" :)

My "Keen eye" went out for a sandwich apparently..... but here goes:

James...Jimbo

Robert....Bobby Hering.... Ben Robertson?

Bensan.......oy vay!...... B--- Barry Woods (Woody)? Ben--- Earl Bentz
san......Who the heck is San???????

You left the "i" out of originally.... But in so doing you poked my "eye" out :)

T2x

T2x
07-27-2006, 10:28 AM
One more thing...Having seen an interview with Guido a few years ago where he was asked if he would consider racing in the U.S. wherein his reply left me cold.

"I will race there only so that they may see who I AM!"

We already have one legendary racer with an oversize head.....who didn't make anybody's top 10 either...we don't need a second.

Finally, I wouldn't be surprised if SPN 43 wasn't Guido himself...... although more likely his publicist.;)

T2x

willabee
07-27-2006, 10:53 AM
James...Jimbo

Robert....Bobby Hering.... Bensan.......oy vay!...... B--- Barry Woods (Woody)? Ben--- Earl Bentz
san......Who the heck is San???????


Here's a few clues for "San" - put that together with the work you've done above and you have got James Robert Bensan aka Woody :cool:

T2x
07-27-2006, 11:41 AM
Here's a few clues for "San" - put that together with the work you've done above and you have got James Robert Bensan aka Woody :cool:


Johnny Sanders....... Over Ron Hill and Tommy Posey?

T2x

Jeff_G
07-27-2006, 12:09 PM
I would put Sanders over Ron. Think Ron was one hellava driver just think some others were better.

When judging a driver sometimes you just can't say exactly why. There are just times when you watch a driver and say "wow".

SPN ain't no Guido, he never "deliberately" ran over someone who was passing him. :D


Tim, you just THINK everything in Texas is faster.

T2x
07-27-2006, 12:40 PM
You mean it's not? I've been wrong before. Hell I put my dad in my top five.
Tim Your Dad is in Texas' top 5...... along with Sanders, Posey, Pruett and Duke Waldrop.

T2x:)

willabee
07-27-2006, 02:27 PM
Johnny Sanders....... Over Ron Hill and Tommy Posey?
T2x

You bet your sweet bippie....I figured the static would be over Barry Woods.

T2x
07-27-2006, 03:05 PM
You bet your sweet bippie....I figured the static would be over Barry Woods.

Okay...I owe you one bippy..but all of mine are sour not sweet.

:D

T2x

T2x
07-27-2006, 03:09 PM
You bet your sweet bippie....I figured the static would be over Barry Woods.

So....
It's Jimbo, Hering, Bentz, Woods and Sanders?

You realize that three out of the five are card carrying OMCommunists, and the fourth "defected" with Garbrecht?:p :p :p

T2x

willabee
07-27-2006, 03:47 PM
So....
It's Jimbo, Hering, Bentz, Woods and Sanders?
You realize that three out of the five are card carrying OMCommunists, and the fourth "defected" with Garbrecht?:p :p :p T2x

Bingo! - you gotum.......Hey, they had to be good to get those OMC's in front some of the time :rolleyes:.

spn#43
07-27-2006, 04:35 PM
Finally, I wouldn't be surprised if SPN 43 wasn't Guido himself...... although more likely his publicist.;)
T2x
:D :D :eek: Hahaha…lol…lol…yea…the man has more championships than I have races… and I don’t even own a D.A.C. boat, and my lucky #43 has nothing to do with Guido’s lucky #43, and the fact that owner of Guido’s long time sponsor “Zepter International” is from my country and my city……well….I admit it, I cant hide my true identity any more….:o :o :o :D ;)


SPN ain't no Guido, he never "deliberately" ran over someone who was passing him.

Noooo… never….lol….just click on this link http://www.f1boat.com/realaudio/05/singapore_crash.html

spn#43
07-27-2006, 06:17 PM
We already have one legendary racer with an oversize head.....who didn't make anybody's top 10 either...we don't need a second.
T2x
:confused: :confused: Who is that?:confused: :confused:

David_L6
07-27-2006, 10:26 PM
:confused: :confused: Who is that?:confused: :confused:

I think he's talking about R.F.

Jeff_G
07-28-2006, 08:49 AM
SPN that video,
Yeah that's the Guido we all know and .... well you get the idea.
We were building a new F1 boat for Cees. Wasn't ready for shipment so in one day we de-rigged Benny's old Champ boat, the one from Pittsburg and re-rigged it for an OMC less powerhead and gearcase, did all the electrical, hydraulic steering, etc. Never been so tired in all my life.
Put it in the container, shipped it to Europe. With the Cees OMC powerhead and with Mandana driving he was passing Guido for the lead on the outside. So Mr. C. did what all Tony Stewart wanna be's would do. He took a right and ran over him.
Believe he got a fine and suspension for that one.
Sorry I have very little respect for him.

Jeff_G
07-28-2006, 08:50 AM
Tim, you wouldn't put your dad in a Texas Top Five? What kind of son are ya?:D

BK
07-28-2006, 12:12 PM
SPN that video,
Yeah that's the Guido we all know and .... well you get the idea.
We were building a new F1 boat for Cees. Wasn't ready for shipment so in one day we de-rigged Benny's old Champ boat, the one from Pittsburg and re-rigged it for an OMC less powerhead and gearcase, did all the electrical, hydraulic steering, etc. Never been so tired in all my life.
Put it in the container, shipped it to Europe. With the Cees OMC powerhead and with Mandana driving he was passing Guido for the lead on the outside. So Mr. C. did what all Tony Stewart wanna be's would do. He took a right and ran over him.
Believe he got a fine and suspension for that one.
Sorry I have very little respect for him.


If it's any consolation ....

One year at the F1 IOGP races at Sacramento, Guido's boat was in the pit area, but Guido wasn't - he was not racing that event. The boat was just there to be trailered to the next race somewhere back east.

But during a preliminary heat, a certain team (not mentioning who) driving a Burgess hull, rolled and lost their cowling. The only Burgess in the entire area, with a perfect looking cowling, was Guido's --- and he wasn't racing.

But he wasn't around to ask permission either....

hmm.....

So this unnamed team "borrowed" the cowling - covered it with contact paper - and nicely painted their sponsors name on it.

Unfortunately, this boat ended up in a violent crash during the finals.

I'm not sure if Guido's cowling ever made it back onto his boat for the next race, but I'm guessing it probably didn't. I never wanted to ask.

And I've never heard anyone talk about it either.

Til now...

;)

spn#43
07-29-2006, 06:40 AM
SPN that video,
Yeah that's the Guido we all know and .... well you get the idea.

About this one?:D :D
http://www.f1boat.com/realaudio/04/putrajaya_crash.html
He's still the greatest!:D ;)

David_L6
07-30-2006, 10:58 AM
If it's any consolation ....

One year at the F1 IOGP races at Sacramento, Guido's boat was in the pit area, but Guido wasn't - he was not racing that event. The boat was just there to be trailered to the next race somewhere back east.

But during a preliminary heat, a certain team (not mentioning who) driving a Burgess hull, rolled and lost their cowling. The only Burgess in the entire area, with a perfect looking cowling, was Guido's --- and he wasn't racing.

But he wasn't around to ask permission either....

hmm.....

So this unnamed team "borrowed" the cowling - covered it with contact paper - and nicely painted their sponsors name on it.

Unfortunately, this boat ended up in a violent crash during the finals.

I'm not sure if Guido's cowling ever made it back onto his boat for the next race, but I'm guessing it probably didn't. I never wanted to ask.

And I've never heard anyone talk about it either.

Til now...

;)

:eek: :eek: :eek:

That's a great story! :D

T2x
08-01-2006, 07:28 AM
Come on Jeff. My dads championships and records speak for themselfs..

Tim:

There's an old joke that , I believe, fits this conversation well.

Neighborhood full of Italian restaurants in a city.

First store front reads "Best Pizza in the city"

2nd store reads "Best Pizza in the State"

3rd store sign says "Best Pizza in the country"

Final sign reads simply "Best Pizza on the block"



Being named with Sanders, Posey, Pruitt, etc..... aint bad....believe me.

Or you could have him named with Fabuloso Cappellini.

If I were you...I'd take Texas.;)

T2x

richiepakasticks
09-05-2006, 07:53 AM
From the early daze of best tunnel drivers I worked with and new. Most of which I built the powerheads for along with Dave Beyer out of Garbects place 20 wisconsin st. Oshkosh, I built the OPC 1250 and 1350 BP`s, Silo`s, Cow bells, and the Stackers both styles, water injected and straight. 1969 to 1971 Majority of all powerheads either had my initials or Dave Beyer, or they came out of research division. The good old days.
Bill Sirois
Jim Merten
Bob Herring
Ceasare Scotti
Jackie Wilson
Tom Purcivall
Freddie Miles of Miles craft fame
Don Pruett
Jimbo Mconnell
Mike Downard
Absolute best: Renato Molinari
All time best: Billy Seebold

Mark75H
09-05-2006, 02:31 PM
Most of which I built the powerheads for along with Dave Beyer out of Garbects place 20 wisconsin st. Oshkosh, I built the OPC 1250 and 1350 BP`s, Silo`s, Cow bells, and the Stackers both styles, water injected and straight. 1969 to 1971 Majority of all powerheads either had my initials or Dave Beyer, or they came out of research division.

Cool!

Can you add anything to this thread: http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96807

Do you recall approximately how many BP's came out of the factory?

AVH racing
10-09-2006, 03:41 PM
my top 5 all time british top drivers all have been national/world champions
John Hill
John Jones
Andy Elilot
Bob Spaulding
Tom Percival

Bstevenson201
10-13-2006, 12:14 PM
what about ken stevenson?

T2x
10-13-2006, 02:02 PM
what about ken stevenson?

Please go back and read the beginning of this thread......Page 1.

Ken appears there and throughout this topic.

T2x

Bstevenson201
10-13-2006, 02:15 PM
thanks, i don't know why I didn't see that before

TBuck2003
10-13-2006, 02:30 PM
No question about it one of, if not the greatest of all time would be Kenny Stevenson.Given the same equipment even across the board he would of piled up rediculous stats.My .02 Brandon read your Private Messages.

Todd

AVH racing
10-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Did ken race in London docks England ,OMC ,Velden boat, Also did he partner up with a british driver in a major race. I was in my twentys in mid 80,s my memory is hazy now but i do remember my dad telling me Kenny was one of the top pilots from USA.

Bstevenson201
10-16-2006, 12:18 PM
yes, he raced with Bob Spaulding. He also raced in Paris. I was only 7 when he died, so I'm giving all info that I know from Pics. Most of the racing was done in the US.

minto
10-16-2006, 12:51 PM
Ken Stevenson and Bob Spalding won the Paris 6 Hours in 1980

Bstevenson201
10-16-2006, 01:00 PM
thats correct

jackie wilson
03-26-2007, 03:00 PM
whoa there-----you can't go making direct comparisons down through the ages like Would billy in his heyday beat Cappolini or trask ? was case as good as woods,? Was bentz as good as the equipment he drove. Did BillPetty's loot have any bearing on his ability as a merc team driver. As an old timer there was only 2 at the top Billy and Renato. Fact. They had the very latest and best kit. Access to props and boats and engines the rest of us could only dream about. Were actually paid ,big money, so all the rest played catch up. I'm telling you the way it was. The day of the factory racers there were only 2, the rest were wanabees. Some brilliant drivers further down the field. spalding, percival. hering,downard, pruett{bless his stupid arse}velden. bentz. werner, jimbo, fountain, sanders, sutter, sirois, stickle, miles, shakespeare. I think you have to divide them into 10 year cycles and pick 10 drivers for each decade. Out of all these guys there is only one who could drive single ,twins, tunnel, marathon, and then take the offshore by the scruff of the neck and wring it-------that was Sirois. and i'm happy to say "he was my friend" Jackie Wilson.

jackie wilson
03-27-2007, 03:15 AM
Hiya Jonathan. For christs sake don't let on my age to anyone, i was 75 last january, older than pruett, merton,garbrecht, seebold,petty.and sherrer, in fact there's only the redwoods up there in oregon and i can remember when they were bushes. Are Ken and Molly Ballou still with us , or have they joined pruett , garbrecht and co. Keep taking the tablets John, !!!!!! Jackie.

jackie wilson
03-27-2007, 10:30 AM
Molly and her late husband Ken, owned a Mercury Dealership in Hemet, California. The business is gone, but Molly lives on the property...grows Christmas Trees...

That lady was den mother to the whole tribe of mercury racers, and the only person in the world who could keep Pruett in line.She RAN Havasu. Tell her i said Hi, Just love her to bits. and i bet she grows one hell of a nice christmas tree,. Jackie

Watermark
03-27-2007, 10:45 AM
This is a good Sport J shot..1973 Sprint National Champ..

MN4V
03-27-2007, 12:04 PM
I'm not real sure but I think I took that photo in Branson, MO. I believe where Benny lost his Stinson Sport J boat. It's still there isn't it?
Mark Nelson

MN4V
03-27-2007, 12:14 PM
I heard that they tried to find it but had trouble because of the trees at the bottom of the lake. If someone found it now, what do think it would be like?
Mark

jackie wilson
05-04-2007, 09:52 AM
:rolleyes:
Like I suggested, you can like him or hate him, but his record speaks for him and nobody can deny that! So far he has 9 UIM World titles and BIG #10 is in the works against “unlimited” racing budget of Emirates team with Scott Gillman at the wheel and the others, plus he forced a lot of “great” drivers in to early retirement only because they could not beat him! He is a maker of the best (most successful in last 10-15 years) Formula 1 boat and all the speed records that he holds (like, over 160 mph in F1 boat, etc) only reason why people don’t give him credit is because hi is current driver. In about 10-15 years people are going to tell stories about him and make him a legend like he really is.
Nobody has done what he’s done so far in Formula 1 and I don’t think anybody will ever come close, so just give the credit where credit is due and leave personal feelings on the side.
PS; I don’t like Michael Schumacher for example, and I can talk all day about greats like Senna; Prost; Pike; Mansel… but the fact is Schumacher is the best F1 car driver ever just like Guido is in his own, so….get it?
:) :) ;)

PPS; I’m not putting anybody down, Bill is a one of the greatest legends of boat racing but at some point we have to accept new legends, we don’t have to wait for their carrier to end to do so.
Can't recall Guido EVER finishing in front of Billy in ANY race anywhere in the world and remember, they did compete against each other for many years. Far east, middle east, europe, In fact Guido races almost everywhere except the U.S. If you want respect in the U.S.A you have to go out and earn it, and over there that means win the damned race or go down trying. Without a doubt , Guido is the very best outside the U.S, and that includes Scott, but hell lets face it, there ain't much out there to beat anymore. Would like to know the name of just one "great" driver that took early retirement because of Guido. in your own time sunshine!!!!!!!! P.S. I have not forgotten Guido did forage into the U.S. on a few occasions, but the funny thing is------i can't remember him having much success,------- J.W. notice how i put my name to things.

SonOfLegend84
05-04-2007, 06:34 PM
Can't recall Guido EVER finishing in front of Billy in ANY race anywhere in the world and remember, they did compete against each other for many years. Far east, middle east, europe, In fact Guido races almost everywhere except the U.S. If you want respect in the U.S.A you have to go out and earn it, and over there that means win the damned race or go down trying. Without a doubt , Guido is the very best outside the U.S, and that includes Scott, but hell lets face it, there ain't much out there to beat anymore. Would like to know the name of just one "great" driver that took early retirement because of Guido. in your own time sunshine!!!!!!!! P.S. I have not forgotten Guido did forage into the U.S. on a few occasions, but the funny thing is------i can't remember him having much success,------- J.W. notice how i put my name to things.The US drivers Billy, Gene and Buck were the guys to beat over here and Guido couldn't do that.

Sorry, just the facts.

HOWEVER, Billy and Gene went overseas and kicked some BUTT.;)

jackie wilson
05-05-2007, 04:49 AM
I believe that John Hill drove ON/OZ later in his career.

T2x

John did race Class O.E.for many years and was world champion. He came to the original formula one class, and after the politics the name was changed to Formula grand prix He won the series twice before his needless accident in the emirates,[ entirely due to to uim political stupidity ]. He never did race O.Z. He was a very nice ,quiet man and respected throughout the sport. Jw

jackie wilson
05-05-2007, 05:00 AM
Just a little kick, nothin too exciting----------Gene did win the fi series in 86 i think and billy won the grand prix series. but these were the only 2 U.S drivers until scott won 2 fi titles. the period does cover more than 30 years. not really exciting biting or total dominance but i suppose you could put it under the heading of -------some butt-----just kidding, TOTAL DOMINANCE IS WHAT BILLY DID IN BRISTOL 7 TIMES.

jackie wilson
05-05-2007, 05:12 AM
Think it's time to start another thread here
which is the toughest racecourse in the world? were talking inshore, and tunnel boats. the toughest i ever raced was Bristol on a bad day, second would have to be Paris in the 60's and early 70's before they stopped the barges running. and third Rotterdam at any time. Rollers come in like mountains and you just cannot take 'em on. I'm listening!!!!!!!!! JW.

minto
05-05-2007, 12:16 PM
I don't think the Thames was too clever either.

Jeff_G
05-05-2007, 12:48 PM
Jackie, Robertson won the World F1 3 times, so add him to Billy and all. I'm not ranking anyone though. You can also add all of his Offshore stuff recently. Including that insane kilo record with Reggie.
T2X he has gotten better in rough water, hasn't he? :D

jackie wilson
05-06-2007, 04:00 AM
I don't think the Thames was too clever either.

Hiya David, forgotten the thames races, Don Ross won the L.M.B.R.C. race and Peter Inward the Battersea race. If i remember rightly there were only 3 boats left running, the floodtide debris and the dead donkey accounting for some forty boats. Biggest pile of boating debris in history. Even Chas Shooter in the Huge K.T. boat succumbed, Yeah that was a rough one

T2x
05-07-2007, 07:26 AM
.
T2X he has gotten better in rough water, hasn't he? :D

Not really...... I think he keeps thinking the boats gonna flip when the bow goes up ........:D :D :D

BUT.... He's a wonderful driver and a great competitor....

slowverado
07-27-2007, 08:09 PM
way late on the thread, but my 5 would be

1. Mr. Bill
2. Joe Burgess (could drive ANYTHING on water, and do it better than most)
3. Buck Thorton
4. Mike Seebold (maybe #3)
5. Molinari

There are so many that a list is really unrealistic. On any given day any one of the many greats could have beaten the others. However as far as being the baddest on the water for a LONG time, and doing it in many different classes. Billy Seebold is the man. He could strap in today and still be highly competitive if not dominant I'm sure.

Mark75H
07-27-2007, 09:04 PM
What a lot of people don't know about Mr. Bill is that he had a long and very successful career as a kneeldown driver before he even started driving tunnels. He was already regarded as one of the all time greats before he ever took a ride in a sit down raceboat.

Renato also raced kneeldown with some success in Europe, but not to the degree of Mr. Bill.

slowverado
07-27-2007, 10:44 PM
bottom line is that Bill could drag a boat out of the shop tomorrow, spend a few minutes in it at George Winter, and go over to Creve Coure next weekend and Dominate. The man is on the level that few others ever will be/have been. I was witness to God stopping the rain FOR Billy at St. Louis once...who else can do that?

jackie wilson
07-28-2007, 09:10 AM
wasn't god, it was bill's old lady lynne. It's also said she can turn water into wine

slowverado
07-28-2007, 09:17 AM
I remember one year, mid 90s I believe Billy won some kind of bonus or something of that nature, it was like an extra $1500, it was cash, Walt handed it to Bill, and Lynne yanked it right out of his hand and pocketed it. One of the funniest moments ever.

jackie wilson
07-29-2007, 03:14 AM
All femalers are like that, or maybe it just happens in Saint louis. Against fierce competition from Jimmy H, i bought son mark in the Calcutta for $20. He finished a poor 5th. But Felix S, and Mikey were both underwieght and got disqualified so Mark was elevated to 3rd, i i won about $2500. Same damn thing, got given the money, but before i could close my fist around it, Jilly grabbed it and spent the whole wad with Charles the Truth [ fenton pawn and honesty shop]. I weep every time she puts that damn ring on ' cos i know she's taking me out to dinner AND I HAVE TO PAY.!!!!

slowverado
07-29-2007, 11:26 AM
I remember that, if Mikey had just put the damn thing on the trailer after winning he probably would have been ok, but he did about 10 victory laps. The scale wasn't working real good that day anyways, it was reading negative numbers when unloaded and crap, it was a screwed up deal that Mike got hosed on.

jackie wilson
07-30-2007, 01:53 AM
Y'know Kipling once wrote a poem called "IF". But in any kind of racing there has to be rules. ie. weight , length, engine size, skidlids, lifevests, and all those little niggly things that somebody put together so we could go "boatracing". If you don't stick to those rules, you get thrown out. No good bitching about it,. If you don't like it , join a club and put your point of view to them, rules can be changed, but not during a race. If you think about it, the minimum weight rule was put there for a number of good reasons. As i recall, only Mike and Felix didn't make the grade, could have been that both the boats were brand new that week and there was a shortage of the regular plywood so they had to make do with some of that lightweight stuff just happened to be hanging round the shop that week.Anyway scales are temperamental little jiggers, put i don't think they have a mind of their own yet. Just pullin' your chain Matt.

slowverado
07-30-2007, 05:11 PM
I totally agree Jackie, the brakes just go the other way sometimes, that was just one day that I was there and watching what was going on and the scale was reading -7-10# while unloaded so that would probably have put Mike to the win since he was only 3-5# light. Its all good, Mike is doing pretty well either way. Take care!

f.panzera
10-21-2008, 12:37 PM
Nobody knows Angelo Panzera, from Italy, OI world champion in 1970 and 1976, also winner in Paris 1969, in maribor 1970 and more ...

jackie wilson
10-22-2008, 11:20 AM
YOU ARE WRONG SR. F. PANZERA I know Angelo Panzera , raced against him many times in the 60/70's, Nicknamed him =='THE GENERAL' Wasn't he with the army or the Polizia, one of the most genial men you would ever hope to meet but even in a hollywood far fetched blockbuster would he make the top 5 tunnel boat drivers, even i beat him on numerous occasions.

T2x
10-22-2008, 11:36 AM
YOU ARE WRONG SR. F. PANZERA I know Angelo Panzera , raced against him many times in the 60/70's, Nicknamed him =='THE GENERAL' Wasn't he with the army or the Polizia, one of the most genial men you would ever hope to meet but even in a hollywood far fetched blockbuster would he make the top 5 tunnel boat drivers, even i beat him on numerous occasions.

Maybe we could make a list of drivers beaten by the top 5 tunnel boat drivers. We could rank them by the number of times they were passed by these guys.........

This may not be as funny as you think.....I think I'm high on the list:D:D:D

T2x

jackie wilson
10-23-2008, 02:54 AM
Me too, but frankly my dear, i don't give a you know what,
When somebody says to you ER, YOU EVER MEET JIMBO,MERT,BILLY SEE, OR PRUETT? to be able to say as a reply MEET 'EM !!! HELLS TEETH, I WUZ PASSED BY THESE GUYS MORE TIMES THAN YOU EVER ------BLAH-BLAH-BLAH, gotta be something of a modern day status symbol. Any ideas on a starting figure ??????

f.panzera
10-23-2008, 05:18 AM
Surely I have been wrong to believe that in this forum someone could help me to find old photos of the competitions in Paris 1969, Maribor 1970 or Luino 1970 with Angelo Panzera.
It surely is not one of the five best driver ...
but I find the name of my father in the list U.I.M. of the World Champions..., and I don't find his.

And this is really VERY FUNNY!!!!

Mark75H
10-23-2008, 05:55 AM
Surely I have been wrong to believe that in this forum someone could help me to find old photos of the competitions in Paris 1969, Maribor 1970 or Luino 1970 with Angelo Panzera.
It surely is not one of the five best driver ...
but I find the name of my father in the list U.I.M. of the World Champions..., and I don't find his.

And this is really VERY FUNNY!!!!

I can't even find general pictures of the Carniti motors in competition, much less a particular driver ... I am not surprised at all that you can not find a specific driver. I think you will have much more luck locally than this discussion board where most of the members are in the USA

BUT ... when you do find pictures start a thread and post them, please:)

T2x
10-23-2008, 08:19 AM
Surely I have been wrong to believe that in this forum someone could help me to find old photos of the competitions in Paris 1969, Maribor 1970 or Luino 1970 with Angelo Panzera.
It surely is not one of the five best driver ...
but I find the name of my father in the list U.I.M. of the World Champions..., and I don't find his.

And this is really VERY FUNNY!!!!

Ahhh sad indeed, but if its any consolation .....most of us love pasta.......:p:p

jackie wilson
10-23-2008, 08:30 AM
He should try sources closer to home, Angelo Vassena worked for Sergio Carniti and must have a great collection. Molinari is certain to have some, Tony Williams drove them for a while ,and so did i. The Como Club Motonautico, had a great list of events and drivers. Rolla himself has a good knowledge of all Italian drivers and lots of literature.

largecar91
10-23-2008, 09:20 AM
Go to liquidnirvana's site and he had the videos on there for the 1969 Paris race. Maybe you can see something there.

f.panzera
10-23-2008, 09:50 AM
Dear Mr. Wilson,
thanks for the gentleness. I apologize if my first intervention in the forum can be seemed discourteous, but I explains my problem. I am the son of Angelo Panzera, my father it will perform 80 years next January and I would like to give him a harvest of photos of his competitions. I possess a lot of photos of his competitions in the years 60 and 70 (it stopped racing in 1980), but I don't possess the images of the competitions in Paris 1969, Berlin 1969, Luino 1970, Maribor 1970, Pavia 1970, Soverato 1972 and Windermere 1973.
Thanks still of his help and I hope to hear again soon it.
Filippo Panzera

jackie wilson
10-24-2008, 02:39 AM
Hey Fillipo, no appologies needed,. There 's a lot of fun and leg pulling on this thread,done by a lot of old time racers who had the best time of their lives when eating, drinking,racing,fighting and farting about somewhere in the world. So you have to forgive us for our enthusiasm.
Good idea to give the old boy Angelo a set of pictures to remember his exploits, tell him i said 'hello' .
My son Mark said to say 'Hi', and wish him a happy birthday.
How many kilos does Angelo carry these days ???

Powercat
10-24-2008, 06:38 PM
Scream & Fly is amazing, this thread was started in 2003 by Buddy Babbitt..
He is no longer alive and I see one other person who posted on this thread
who also is no longer alive, yet the thread is still ongoing....
Now that is what I call a conversation of value !!!
Danny Leger
Austin, Texas

jackie wilson
10-25-2008, 02:56 AM
did Angelo race with one of the Molinari teams in Paris '69, Molinari was given 3-1250 BP'S and 2 1000 BP'S to put in the Paris race.
The 1000 bp's raced in the OI class and i see Angelo won the world title in that class.
Think he ran Carniti and later on a Johnrude in the OE class.
Maybe he co-drove with Renato in Miss Titti.
Haven't got the '69 Paris entry list, got destroyed in the flood,

minto
10-25-2008, 09:05 AM
The Paris 1970 programme lists,

Boat 32 Panzera/Calcaterra Carniti ON Class.

jackie wilson
10-25-2008, 09:37 AM
Don't ever remember a Carniti ON motor.
Time to call on the historians, this one beats me.

Mark75H
10-25-2008, 10:05 AM
120ci opposed 6

jackie wilson
10-25-2008, 11:26 AM
Never heard of one ever starting a race ,let alone finishing and winning to boot.
when Carniti's ran they were like sh-t off'n a teflon shovel, but like the Konig, if the set up was off key they were a stone bitch to fire up. I won the British Championship with a Carniti in 1966, in the final race on the final lap. the damn thing threw the flywheel through the cowl, bounced clear to the clubhouse at Chasewater just after the chequered flag. God was good to me that day.!!!!!!

f.panzera
10-26-2008, 07:38 AM
Angelo Vassena corse con CARNITI 2000 a Milano nella primavera del 1970, ma ebbe dei problemi.
Dopo il motore venne montato sulla barca di mio padre, un SICILGEREMIA, e nell'estate del 1970 corse e vinse il Gran Premio di Jugoslavia a Maribor, vincendo il trofeo "Elica d'oro" e battendo Dieter Schulze. Quella fu la prima ed unica gara in cui un motore italiano vinse nella classe ON. In agosto, sempre del 1970, corse a Pavia il Gran Premio d'Italia, vinse la prima manche ma fece un brutto volo nella seconda che mandò mio padre in ospedale in coma e con 12 costole rotte. Credo che dopo quella gara quel motore non corse più, ma io ero troppo giovane ed i miei ricordi sono incompleti. Vorrei trovare più notizie di quella gara e trovare quache foto.
Filippo Panzera

f.panzera
10-26-2008, 07:43 AM
Angelo Vassena raced with a CARNITI 2000 outboard to Milan in the 1970 spring, but it had some problems.
After that competition, the motor was climbed on on the boat of my father, a SICILGEREMIA, and in the summer of the 1970 runs and it won the Gran Prix of Yugoslavia in Maribor, winning the trophy "gold propeller" and Dieter Schulze beating. That was the first and only competition in which an Italian motor won in the class ON. In August, always of 1970, raced to Pavia the Gran Prix of Italy, it won the first manche but it made an ugly flight in the second that sent my father in the hospital with 12 broken ribs. I believe that after that competition that motor not raced anymore, but I was too much youth and my memoirs they are incomplete. I would like to find more news of that competition and to find some photo.
Filippo Panzera

jackie wilson
10-27-2008, 04:04 AM
Worked with Vassena translating the Carniti workshop manuals to English in the early '60's then lost touch with him 'till the mid '70's when my daughter moved to Oggiono [home of Carniti]. He was very poorly with the big C . Lost all contact with him since then.
You mention your father raced a 'SICILGEREMIA' ----- would that have been built by Geremia Cetti of TORRIGIA.???
In 1970, the boats ran full tunnels, the Pavia race was run on the river PO and was prone to wind currents like no other race, combine this and an exoerimental 2 litre motori, you would have to be very experienced and lucky to bring it home in one piece.
Your best chance of finding out the full story is to contact Rolla in Lugano , I can guarantee he made the props for Sergio Carniti.
I never even knew the motor existed, so i'm about as much use to you as a chocolate fireguard.

TomAprilsswitzers
10-27-2008, 04:15 AM
BK you're probably right.....................For instance, Lee Sutter didn't have a long career in OPC....but man could he drive! He single handedly started the revolution that left every thing from washers to driver's suit buttons on the beach to save weight.

One other name lost in all of this.................... Sirois......

And how good would either Briggs brother have been....if they lasted?

Another guy...........Sherlock.

La Grand Canadienne.................... Spencer Dunn


It goes on and on.


T2x

Anyone ever heard of a guy by the name of Jimbo McConnell....I would say he was up there with Billie...:cheers:

Mark75H
10-27-2008, 05:53 AM
He's first mentioned on post 28 of this thread (we are now over 150)

f.panzera
10-27-2008, 06:35 AM
In the 70’s Geremia of Torriggia moved to Sicily, to Palermo, where a little group of sicilian drivers wait for.
From that period his shipyard changed its name in Sicil-Geremia, following its tend of victories and leadership in FT class European Championship, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
My father built with Geremia three tunnel boats called SICIL GEREMIA <o:p></o:p>
With the first one, nicknamed BATMAN, raced and it won the first world title in 1970 to Luino, with Mercury 1000BP engine, then runs to Maribor and it finally destroyed in Pavia using the Carniti ON 2000 6 cylinders engine, as I have already told. <o:p></o:p>
It was indeed enrolled to Paris in 1970, but because of the accident in Pavia not raced. <o:p></o:p>
With the second runs in Paris in 1972, coequiper his nephew Joseph Sicuro, arriving 2° in the class OI and 12° absolute. They lost the victory of class for a restocking of fuel to 10 minutes from the end but it got the good absolute time on the single lap. <o:p></o:p>
With the third it participated in the Championship of the World of Windermere in 1973, without getting great results. <o:p></o:p>
In 1975, after the death of Cesare Scotti, it acquired from his wife one of his boats with which raced and it won the 1976 World Championship (always class OI) with motor Mercury, that raced to Syracuse. <o:p></o:p>
I am hardly able I will send some of the photos that I possess.<o:p></o:p>

jackie wilson
10-27-2008, 08:33 AM
Geramia had the best facility on lake Como with the Torriggia Factory as anyone who ever went there in the late 60's and early 70's will confirm.
Had no idea he went to Sicily. He was a beautiful woodworker, and set the standard for all the other Italian builders, ie, Molinari, Scotti, Abbatte. He was on a par with Riva for craftsmanship and finish.
Is he still alive today.???

minto
10-27-2008, 10:41 AM
F.PANZERA

Please check your Private Messages.

I have sent the contact details of a friend in Italy who may be able to help you.

f.panzera
10-27-2008, 01:21 PM
Geremia is dead years ago. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
His child continues his job, but he has returned to work on the lake of Como of drawers in the ex factory of Renato Molinari. <o:p></o:p>
I enclose some photos: <o:p></o:p>
1 - Paris 1969, 1° absolute on Molinary/Mercury. my father didn't belong to the official Team, but he raced from private. After the competition the Mercury tried everything to be able to insert him in his publicities as official driver. <o:p></o:p>
2 - Paris 1972, 12° absolute, 2° class OI with the second tunnel boat SICILGEREMIA and motor Mercury. <o:p></o:p>
3 - Windermere 1973, the third tunnel boat SICILGEREMIA to the Championship of the World class OI. Any good result. <o:p></o:p>
4 - the third tunnel boat SICILGEREMIA modified in the winter 1973. <o:p></o:p>
5 - Syracuse 1976, the victory in the 2° Championship of the World class OI with a boat SCOTTI and motor Mercury. <o:p></o:p>
6 - Sicily 1979, The Tunnel boat SCOTTI modified by Geremia. <o:p></o:p>
7 - Sicily 2008, the tunnel boat SCOTTI today, we are beginning to restore it.

f.panzera
10-27-2008, 01:24 PM
Pics 4, 5, and 6

f.panzera
10-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Pics 1, 2, and 3 ...

f.panzera
10-27-2008, 01:28 PM
Today. Pics 7

f.panzera
10-27-2008, 01:29 PM
Tks...

Mark75H
10-27-2008, 05:24 PM
Very interesting Fillipo. Thank you for posting! Any pictures of the Carnitis?

f.panzera
10-28-2008, 03:29 AM
No, I'm looking to find some pics of that engine and of the first SICILGEREMIA tunnel boat (nicknamed BATMAN...)

AngelsFanMomma
11-21-2009, 02:44 AM
(it's me, Val, on Brad's machine)

Yes, Beaver.

Before that Parker wreck, Ted had a prior nasty crash with a ModVP that tore the most of the deck of Scotti craft "Hell cat" apart. It was then pieced together, with a large flat nose where the square deck bow used to be. The boat was then over 16 years old, and everyone was bugging Ted to give up the Old Scotti and drive a newer boat.

So at Parker, he was driving a "newer" hull (cant remember what type of hull it was, but it was far from being 'new' -- JJ's dad owned it I think - he can fill us in)

Ted crashed it while I was scoring for Red. My friend Trisha was scoring for Ted a few seats away. When I saw a white bow bobbing nose up in the water up river, The driver was being rushed in and I looked at Trish - I yelled "Is that TED????". Trish wouldnt answer. She knew it was bad and didnt want to tell me.

Ted was about 67-69 years old then (we never knew his age for sure, and he always gave us different answers). I freaked out. He went through the deck with his face. Had some missing teeth and broken facial bones and ribs and was care-flighted to Phoenix --

But he was back to racing his old "Hell Cat" by Havasu - vowing never to drive those 'new fangled' boats again. At Havasu, even Brad spent some time working on the Hell Cat in the Pioneer Parking lot, to try and keep it together for at least one more race.


I remember that day, when he crashed at Parker like it was yesterday. We came home and Butch was on the porch. Said Ted had been an accident and it wasnt good. Butch, Pat and myself ( i think i was 7 or 8) rushed to Phoenix. I couldnt even recognize him. I remember one of the nurses asking if that was my Grandpa and I got so angry!

I forgot who flew him home. It was someone who had a plane in the boat racing community. He came home on my birthday. That was his last race. The Hell Cat just sat in the back of the house mangled. I remember i drew a picture of my the boat flipping upside down, as it had been described to me. Some kids draw butterflies and rainbows, i drew tunnel boats flying through the air.

Joe
11-21-2009, 07:30 PM
Bob Armstrong was the pilot who flew Ted home. Val, it was my dad's Del-Craft that he flipped.

Joe

jackie wilson
11-22-2009, 04:08 AM
Got to know Ted through Pruett and various members of the "Tart Team" ,and Johnny Sanders and Jimbo and Ron Hill. One of my fondest memories of him was Leaning on the pit wall in Paris wearing a pair of cookie sunglasses with windscreen wipers switched ON. Had that picture for years, don't know what happened to it. One of the true "CHARACTERS" that made racing history. J.

AngelsFanMomma
11-23-2009, 03:33 PM
Im sorry to say, and its hard to still accept. But Ted passed away on June 19th of this year. Its still hard for me. He was an amazing father. I was another one of Pat's, how can I say this, rescues. You would never know it that Ted wasnt my real father. Hell, even i didnt know until 3 years ago. I am a lot like him. Ted never once treated me like i wasn't his real daughter. And even though him and Pat were separated, he still took me fishing, and we had our Sunday outings of the swap meet, then off to miniature golf, then rushed off to The Prospector to make breakfast before they stopped serving it at 2pm.

The Prospector is also a dive bar as well as a restaurant. And my friends and I went there last night and I well, i lost it. It was hard being there knowing i had spent so many weekends in there having breakfast with my Dad.

I miss him A LOT! And they say it gets easier everyday that passes. But I've yet to experience that. Any pictures anyone has of my papa racing if you could post them, that would be great! Pat hoarded all that stuff, so i am without them.

Thank you for all the wonderful stories everyone has. I used to swear "Goddammit" was his favorite word.

I will also answer any questions anybody may have about him and about his whereabouts and his life after he stopped racing and how he spent his last days.

velox
04-25-2010, 09:40 AM
One of the things I found out when racing boats was, how hard it is to win.
Alot of of the time the best boat does not win due to something happening, like breakdowns, flips, and other unforeseen stuff happening.
Overall its about preparation, driving skills, luck and driving smart.
Who had the best percentage of wins compared to starts?
Odell Lewis raced for Carl K and had an amazing run of wins.
It was something like 20 starts 16 wins, a couple of seconds a third and maybe a DNF.
I can remember a number of times I had the fastest boat only to end up losing due to one of the above.
From the 60's I remember guys that knew how to win such as Herbie Reeves (E class OPC) and Steve Malone (unlimited OPC)
I am sure "Lil Abner" (Butch Stokes) can add to this list.
While I was not around during that time , everytime I watched racing TV, Billy Seebold seemed to win. I feel some people just know how to win and some like me, can jerk defeat right out of the jaws of victory.

Lake X Kid
02-12-2012, 11:29 AM
Roy Ridgell a Mercury factory driver in the 1960s, told me that Bill Sirois and Odell Lewis were the fast guys. He also admired John Bakos on and off the race course. I was in Europe during the 1971 & 1973 racing seasons, and the Maestro Renato was the driver everyone wanted to beat. In my observation Bill Seebold is Renato Molinari equal.

I believe that more racing seat-time is a strong factor in being the Best of the Best.

Honorable Mention to the late Bob Spaulding and Tom Percival. I treasure knowing Bob on & off the race course during the early 1970s. A fine Brit to hang-out with.

Scotti and Cees during this era in Europe were contenders to be reckon with.