Politics: What is N. Korea up to?

[B.Leonard]

Politics on an outboard forum :rolleyes: Oh well here goes...

What are they up to? Are those nuke plants for power or to produce weapons grade plutonium?

It looks obvious that they waited until the US was about to engage Iraq before they did this. Sounds to me like they got plans for something real soon.

-BL

[Capt.Insane-o]

While the military gets the fat. Even if they are up to something, they don't seem to have the strong back(except for china, but involvement from them with as much scrutiny from the un that is going on would bring much pressure) to back them up. Ever look at the size difference bettween us and them? Which leads to extreme and drastic measures from them. Could be ugly, could be a big fart in the wind. It is sad that they let their own people starve instead of involving themselves in the global presence in a peaceful way(whatever that is) and benefitting from it. Pissing matches are a part of history though, it's too bad they have such consequences now. To make it worse we have a social idiot oilman from Texas who hopefully will pass negotiations on to some one with more grace than he. It'll be intresting to watch, that is for sure. I keep noticing on the news, at the end of most reports about the war with Iraq the newsperson always adds," Iraq holds the second largest oil reserves in the world". Then a commercial pops up. There is more I could say but don't really want to be put on that "Suspicious Person" list:eek: ;)

[B.Leonard]

Get that Taco mess cleaned up yet? :D

The U.S. gets a large amount of it's oil from the Saudi's not Iraq. That is one of the reasons why "W" is not to worried about going to the guns quick.

The Rooskies and French get most their oil from Iraq, that is why they are complaining so much about a millitary confrontation.

I don't think Iraq is the biggest worry, and if I was in charge would handle Iraq with purely special forces and air support. Save the infantry for a much bigger confrontation over in Korea.

But where and who would N. Korea move on first? That's what I'm confused about. Maybe they are just trying to support Saddam by spiltting the U.S. forces??

-BL

[Wile E. Coyote]

My .02, its not what they do with that weapons grade plutonium, Its who they SELL it to, yes their people are eating dust bunnies, and there are some people with alot of money who would pay tons for enough to make one device....sell just one and that would feed and heat alot of people....

[WharfRat]

Actually, I think that is exactly what they are trying to do, force our hand to help with their struggling economy/food problem (They say we agreed to that when they signed the nuclear agreement & never came thru for them) Just a guess (hope) IMHO

[Techno]

You need more than plutonium, you need a breeder reactor to produce the tritium triggers. We still run ours even though they have cracks and wouldn't pass an NRC inspection. A vault that holds hundreds of thousand of triggers. I guess because they have a short life. We have lots to replace. Add up the warheads on 1 Triton sub. 24 missiles? 12 Mirvs per? Something like that.

N korea is leading a peaceful method. They are trading weapons to other countries that can't or won't build them. Thats what we do, Used to have 47% of the world market but it's slipped. Russia only had 37% at the same time. ( how do you think all the stinger missiles got out?)
The 16% was all the other countries.
N.Ks weapons are short range. Check out the nuke club and there are a lot of members who seem to have wasted their money on a fairly useless weapon. This hype didn't happen to this degree when India was doing it. Just the media doesn't have something else to report. Like the child abduction thing a few months ago. I guess that isn't happening anymore.
I don't see much advantage to using a nuke for a small country. The big countries wouldn't like it and would use thier "ace in the hole" to neutralize any further possiblilities. Thats really the only use for a nuke- to use on a country that used a nuke.

Just saw on TV we get 13% of our oil from Mexico or it was south
America, forgot which. Another 13% from the middle east. Forgot where the rest is from. Kind of wierd this hype on how much oil we get from there but guesss 13% of a huge consumption amounts to a fairly large amount.
Don't know if russia gets thier oil form the M.E. since they are a world supplier of energy. Supposed to be a deal in the making during the Afgan thing that we would buy oil from them. Helps us and helps russias economy. - I'm still waiting!

BTW the russians lost real weapons, not the toys the N.Koreans are supposedly building. A Nuke sub was almost sold to a drug dealer- almost. Since they were watching the drug dealer they caught this in time and stopped it. Or it was the mobster who was trying to sell it.
" How many missiles would you like on your burger" I forgot if that was an option the seller was offering.


Need a bigger spoon.

[B.Leonard]

Good points Techno, but I have to diagree on one...


Originally posted by Techno
Thats really the only use for a nuke- to use on a country that used a nuke.

History has actually proven that it does work when the other country didn't use nukes first.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Who wants to bet that Saddam waits until the very very last minute, when all our guys are in place and we've spent millions on moving a HUGE force over there, planes are on the runway, M16s locked and loaded and then....

Saddam says he will disarm!?! I'll also bet that "W" falls for it as well and doesn't go in.

Who wants to bet!?! :D

-BL

[wildhare]

I'm not taking that bet....frightening times we live in....

[Wile E. Coyote]

I agree with Techno to a point...
I don't see much advantage to using a nuke for a small country
Who said anything about a small country....If Osama been hidin or some other lunatic like him gets a hold of even the plutonium, how long before they march right into Israel and set it off, It doesn't have to wipe out the entire country or even a part of it to set off a chain of events that would be catastrophic....Not to offend anyone but the Israelis arent exactly what you'd call understanding in this area...It is a valid fear, If North Korea continues on this path I think it will end badly...

B.
I might take that bet...Poppa did just that and I think thats partly why W is so hot to finish the job, I think we'll go no matter what the UN inspectors find....you want to bring him around, forget the sanctions, tell them we are going to OCCUPY Iraq and TAKE their oil, see how long it will take the other opec nations to erase that problem for us....might work...

[MTCM]

The North Korean Government has told the 1.2 million army troops they control, to deal "merciless blows" if U.S. or other forces put so much as a toe over the border. We (U.S.) do not have a chance fighting these sonsabitches on their soil. They have the world's fourth largest standing army. These ruthless bastards have no conscience and are dedicated to the point of suicide (maximum kamakazee). They don't give a damn what it takes. The best strategy in dealing with these zipperheads is genocide. The confrontation must be nuclear and on a grand scale.

[wildhare]

that is the worst fear i think....is there a motive to provide an outside source some of th eweapons being made in N korea ...do they believe that we are on the way there already due to our war on terror , have they been promoting certain groups and now are worried of our involvement in stamping these groups and supporters out

[Wile E. Coyote]

Thats entirely possible, W did include them in the "evil axis" remarks, that and their leaders insane paranoia.....

[Hunter]

MTCM and others,

I'd worry a little less about North Korea. Yes, they have a large standing army, a tremendous portion of which are special forces. That is no more significant a statement than, Minn Kota has a lot of outboard engines. You're not scared, are you? Yeah, they are expected to go chem/bio in a conflict (this website http://www.fas.org/ has a lot of good info on it, if you're interested).

A little history though. The Asian theatre is rather unpalatable to the media, having lousy hotels and a vicious time variance to the east coast news cycle. Consequently, it's rather under-reported. The Korean War (which technically continues today as an armistice exists on the peninsula) for us and the UN began as a surprise attack using advanced Soviet tech tanks against a rather unmechanized southern force. Their push was quite successful and the north almost solidified victory if not for the Incheon landing and resupply through Pusan. After that, they were forced into retreat and had we not overrun our logistics trail, the Chinese might not have been successful in preventing the reunification under western occupation.

As it was, a couple of map drawers in the pentagon (really) drew the line that defines the DMZ. This line alone is a big area of contention for the north as it projects east west into the sea instead of at a 90 degree angle to the shoreline, effectively restricting them from some fabulous crab/fishing waters. It's so disputed that just last July, the north attacked a patrol boat from the south. I happened to be touring a tunnel on the DMZ at the time.

Yes, it's ugly in the north. There are vast sources of information on the topic - UNHCR or whatever. I worked in the Hardened Theatre Air Command Center last year and have trouble extracting what's classified and not about what I know. I had to get through a gate guard and through two combo doors and another safe to even get to my computer. People over there are very serious about their work, though, and what we know about activities in the north is pretty robust. For those that are mildly enthused to find the 7-11 cashier actually knew which pump you used, entering this building might be hazardous. We are very good at what we do. If anyone's interested, I can send you to some unclassified government websites that address doctrine, warplanning, the Theatre Air Ground system (communications structure), and so on but you should trust me that we have it together over there.

Americans have come to expect a bloodless war on the part of our servicemen. That's just not possible on such a populated peninsula with two opposing capitals so close to each other. Interestingly, there seem to be little concerns about collateral damage in the event of war which makes our operations more fluid. The advances in warfighting on our part are phenomenal but it really serves the military little for you or our potential enemies to fully realize that.

The fact is nK as almost as good as Saddam at "never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity". How this will play out is anyone's guess. I bet the thorn china's been happy to have in our side is going to start pricking them and I doubt Japan will be too excited about having a neighbor with robust nuclear capability but keep in mind, we have a protectionist relationship with them as well.

I don't have a passion for the nK but I don't think epitaphs such as "zipperhead" improves anyone's understand of the situation or heightens the discourse. The nK is always on the verge of starvation, isolated from most of the world, and run by a tyrant but often the west's answer is to hand them a GPS so they don't get lost mowing the lawn and then wonder why they attached it to a no dong missile. The hardest part about interfacing with countries like nK is that they meet the definitions of a nation/state in the strangest fashion and it's very hard to reach them. Still, if they choose not to honor their agreements we're well capable of settling any conflict with them.

Sleep well.

[B.Leonard]

Originally posted by MTCM
The best strategy in dealing with these zipperheads is genocide. The confrontation must be nuclear and on a grand scale.

You stereotypical outboard loving war monger :D I think you're right on! :)

Using Nukes only when nukes have been used leads to nothing but a big showdown.

Like two of the worlds biggest buildings colapsing while full of people isn't enough!! It's time for the US to start dealing out a little justice before it's too late.

Hunter: Interesting, and some good points. I have done a good bit of DoD work though, you may be using some of that very equipment and I must say I do have trouble sleeping at night :( (except after boating of course). That is why I don't like to see things go to the edge like a global arms race. I say settle it early and completely before it get's too complex.

-BL

[typhoon]

North Korea is known for it's political posturing, and that's all this is right now. Sure they have started up their reactors again, but I bet it's purely for the media and political leverage it gives them. Remember, the US and a lot of western countries are looking/planning on getting into China in a big financial way, and I bet Nth Korea wants a piece of this. This is their silly little way of focusing attention on their country, like they have been doing since the Korean war. They are always sending warships on "exercise" and scaring the hell out of Japan etc.
As for the Asian region not being reported very well..I suspect that's merely in your country. Down here it gets daily media attention.
And as for Nth Korea's armed forces..big deal. They don't have the means to move them anywhere, so they are not a threat. Neither are any missiles they have, all very short range, and very old...we stil have good old fashioned F-111 aircraft here, the reason is so we have the legs and load carrying ability to dictate terms with countries like this. We can have bombs on their soil in 12 hours or less, and they know it. They are about as much as a direct threat as the old Soviet union at the moment.
You all should be more worried about Indonesia. The politicians are corrupt as hell, have MANY terrorist cells active in their country(some even state sponsored, but the media won't say this), and have more than a couple of reactors. Their armed forces are also corrupt, and incompetent.

Regards, Andrew.

[B.Leonard]

Oh man, no doubt, just as bad if not worse situation, not as organized though it seems. Defitnitly a hot bed for terrorists though.

F111s, oldie but a goodie :D

-BL

[Techno]

Originally posted by MTCM
The confrontation must be nuclear and on a grand scale.

I don't think you really want a grand scaled nuke war.

Think back short of a century. A vain dude got shot. He died because he was sewn into his clothes. This guy ferdinhand wasn't even important but Germany had a treaty, and declared war. England had a treaty with them and declared war. Russia had a treaty and declared it back and so on....
Every one was gung ho for a good fight that was sure to be over shortly since they all were sure they were so powerfull.( and they didn't have to bleed!)

Russia mobilized 1 million troops to her border as a show of force to prevent a war. This scared everyone who immediatley mobilized and we had the Great war, the war to end all wars. Using the tactics from the end of the American Civil war it bogged down into trench warfare with mass charges into the other Civil war result- machine guns.
Interestingly although the cities were targets and were attacked no gas attack was done on one- I think.

After it was over more people died of influenza after the war than fighting it. The after math of the war was worse than the war itself.
As a result of this war Germany was raped to pay reparations, totaly out of line( if you don't agree then check out what was done to them). With nothing and no future and no employment a genocider was put into power who then began the next war.
BTW Goering was doing a fantastic job of taking over Europe without war. Hitler wanted war so bad he shot Goering the bird, " whats taking you so long?" and attacked Poland. Then The treaties engaged and allies & axis began dukin it out.

A further string of this line is Russia, who started as a 3rd world country ended as a super power, There are only 2. The other super power America who was tired of constant overseas threats never stood down from a war footing and is today still fully geared up for immediate war- any where on the globe. It also started WW I as low on the totem pole of military nations.

We launch not into a vacuum but into an area treaty rich.
The "war" 'operation bush isn't called a wimp again' (everytime a reporter called bush a wimp he attacked someone) had several other countries come to the aid of Kuwait. All against one liittle country.
Sun Su or whatever his name is. "The best way to win a war is not to fight it." Politics, Spys and such are the method used to win a war without having one. This way means the people who are expected to bleed in defense of their country don't have to, today.

B.Leonard

History shows that not using nukes has been beneficial. Count all the skirmishs and wars since 1945, none of them has used a nuke, tactical or stragic. The only time they were used consumed the worlds entire supply- 2.

This kind of discussion really needs to be done at a bar with a few tankerds on the table!

[B.Leonard]

Thanks for the history lesson Techno! :rolleyes: Just kidding now! That was interesting.


Originally posted by Techno

B.Leonard

History shows that not using nukes has been beneficial. Count all the skirmishs and wars since 1945, none of them has used a nuke, tactical or stragic.

C'mon now that's reaching! I believe the word circumstantial applies there! ;) ;) In other words the flip side could be said... Everytime nukes where used we won!

Japan was isolated enough for it to be a good "test bed" I'll give you that much, but with the advancement in tactical and small scale nukes, I think their use would shorten future wars and I'm sure you know only the dead have seen the end of war altogether.

-BL

[Techno]

I forgot to end.
I'm right and your all wrong! Dammit. Check out this'n here-http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/index.html

Heres a few of the pictures this guys got.
these links don't hot link but work if you copy and paste.
Boom 1
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/Cromeo2.jpg

Boom 2
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/Cromeo1.jpg
boom 3
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/1984/Pbprisc3.jpg

Not anything to do with what I was saying just some neat pitures.

[B.Leonard]

Interesting stuff.

Some freak is gonna set one off in this country someday, you just know it. It's gonna make 9-11 seem like a practice drill.

-BL