why are these tiny boats so expensive????

[2tonchevy]

let me start by saying i am in no way being condescending......

but honestly! why would ANYBODY pay 35k, 40k, 45k....and even more for a 20 year old 22 foot cat with twin outboards??? seriously....you can go buy ALOT more boat for the same money!

i cnt tell if its the buyers who are crazy or the sellers.....to realistically ask 40,000+ dollars for a 1990 year model 22 foot talon with twin outboards in this market is insane to me. but evidently people are willing to pay it...so maybe im the one thats crazy.

i took a quick look around and found several late 90s 25-32 foot cats with twin outboards and twin inboards that ran well over 100mph for less than 40k.

just a rant. maybe someone can explain why these tiny lil boats are worth so much money. i cant see it nor would i ever pay that much cash for a 22 foot boat.

[JUPITER PULSARE]

Chevy, many of these boats have become collectables...they haven't been built for years or were built in very limited volumes. The Skater 21's, 24's and 28's are highly desireable. They are great rough water cats with no center pod. Talon stopped production years ago and their 22' Talon was an incredible handling and fast boat with either single or twin outboard power. They also had an 18', 21', 25' and 37' Talon. The smaller boats are easier to tow, store and give you a completely different "seat of the pants" feel in the higher speed realm. A 21/22' boat running 90mph sure feels different than a 35' boat running the same speed. The pucker factor is alot higher in a small boat!!!!

[Tom Foley]

let me start by saying i am in no way being condescending......



i took a quick look around and found several late 90s 25-32 foot cats with twin outboards and twin inboards that ran well over 100mph for less than 40k.



Lets see'em .

[BUZZIN' DOZEN]

Lets see'em .
Excactly, maybe on this guy's island
http://ricardo-montalban.ememorials.in/userfiles/john/Ricardo%20Montalban.jpg

[2tonchevy]

ok...thats what it is boys. im lying. lmao i really havnt seen the boats im talkin about. GTFO lol

25 warlock 109 mph - twin 2.5 28k

30 spectre 100+ mph - twin 2.5 37k

30 foot spectre twin 548 BBC - 100+ mph 34k

american offshore 2600 - more of those than i can count - 28-30 k - 100 mph+

25 eliminator - several - 25-40k - 100+ mph

i found all of those last night in less than 20 mins.
and thats just a quick once over.

again theres no need for smart @ss remarks. the facts are as stated. you guys wanna be the "smart" guys and buy a 45k 22 foot boat....be my guest.

to all those (jupiter pulsare) that replied with dignity and at least attempted to answer my question: thanks.

[stokernick]

Guess you could say,''do you want a Yugo,or a Lexus?''!!!!!

[282]

Big stuff is a dime a dozen, the smaller outboard stuff is tough to find. Whats a new 250 or 300 cost plus the rigging and hull. A new 21 outboard can be 50k so 20-25 isn't so bad.

[2tonchevy]

and just to be clear: i like small boats. i dont have a huge high dollar boat so im in no way touting them as being the way to go. nut damn it just seems that a 45k asking price on a 21-22 foot boat is wild. sorry.

[FrenchPhil]

As it was said, it's really supply & demand. Small fast boats especially outboard are rare so expensive.

[euro scott]

asking and getting are two different thing's

but breaking it down to whats it worth in pieces and doing the math
motor- avg 10k each for a decent, more for newer
trailer - 3k
rigging-, jacks, pumps etc 2k
hull -15k for avg condition

[JWTjr.]

I was just talking about this the other day. It's why, in my opinion, the small fast outboard market has essentially disappeared since it's heyday (mid-1970s-late 1990s). In the late 1970s, you could buy a new HydroStream or Allison for $2k, a trailer for $500, a V6 Merc or OMC for another $3000 and rig it for another $500, and you're in a 80+ mph rig for $6k or so. In the late 1980s to mid 1990s that price rose to $20k, but an average middle class guy could still afford it. And, that was without loans--you NEVER borrowed money on a performance boat, that was a cardinal rule.

Today it's $17k for the (new) engine (and that's a bargain price), another $20k for the boat, another $3k for the trailer, and another $2500-$3k for the rigging. The OP is right--it's $40k or better and that's if you can swing a deal on some of the items! Want to get more disgusted--price a new Allison (or similar) bass boat lately? For a nice 21' with 250 power you're well into the $60s. I don't know too many middle class guys that can lay that out without a serious borrowing commitment.

John

[Team Shadow by Image]

Get the Bargains now when ya still can, years down the road supply of solid original Gel coat Hulls and good engines will be slim.
Top Name Performance boats will be Like Muscle cars ........ Hard enough to find Local Merc deal in my area, boat Builders are making larger hulls for profit margins Resin and Materials have doubled in cost.

[JWS]

I was just talking about this the other day. It's why, in my opinion, the small fast outboard market has essentially disappeared since it's heyday (mid-1970s-late 1990s). In the late 1970s, you could buy a new HydroStream or Allison for $2k, a trailer for $500, a V6 Merc or OMC for another $3000 and rig it for another $500, and you're in a 80+ mph rig for $6k or so. In the late 1980s to mid 1990s that price rose to $20k, but an average middle class guy could still afford it. And, that was without loans--you NEVER borrowed money on a performance boat, that was a cardinal rule.

Today it's $17k for the (new) engine (and that's a bargain price), another $20k for the boat, another $3k for the trailer, and another $2500-$3k for the rigging. The OP is right--it's $40k or better and that's if you can swing a deal on some of the items! Want to get more disgusted--price a new Allison (or similar) bass boat lately? For a nice 21' with 250 power you're well into the $60s. I don't know too many middle class guys that can lay that out without a serious borrowing commitment.

John

This is exactly correct. my question is it increased manufacturing costs or simple greed? Seems to me if its the latter someone would step up and fill a niche market. JWT , you can probably answer this.

[Frank Molé]

i just redid a 22 talon,one motor, everything has been done,with buying boat and transport im over 40k..:eek:..but im a little nutty............:smiletest: like everything better than new..:cool:



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/005-10.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/004-11.jpg


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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/011.jpg

[JWS]

Frank, its easy to see why you like it better than new. Beautiful job. I just did (and had done) a total resto (core, interior, etc...) on my 88 hydrostream vegas that i bought new. I KNOW the hull is better than new. I kept the hull exactly original. I had kept the indoors all of its life so the resto wasnt too expensive. about 4,500.00 for the core, floor,etc.. and about 2K for the interior. Still have another 1K or so to go on the hull. New gauges,throttle,brightwork,etc..

This winter is the motor. Have a mildly ported 3.0 fingerport OMC block, Stoker balaced rods, balaced and polished crank,etcc . Probably about 6 to 8 K in motor parts and the labor i cant or dont trust myself to do.

So yeah your right on. still much less than a new 20 foot hull and 300HP motor.

[njj502]

It's all bout supply & demand. I've got roughly $17k in a 19 yr old GrandSport with a 13yr old ProMax. Its almost like new but was much MUCH cheaper than a new one! Gonna pay for a QUALITY boat if its big, small, old or new.

Buzzin, you ready to sell that lil 21'? I'll give ya 20 for it!! LMFAO!

[Frank Molé]

thanks and yea that dosnt count all my labor and time running around getting tons of stuff,nuts,bolts,wiring ect,ect.....you never get ahead on a for you perfect build..........

[perfmarine1]

let me start by saying i am in no way being condescending......

but honestly! why would ANYBODY pay 35k, 40k, 45k....and even more for a 20 year old 22 foot cat with twin outboards??? seriously....you can go buy ALOT more boat for the same money!

i cnt tell if its the buyers who are crazy or the sellers.....to realistically ask 40,000+ dollars for a 1990 year model 22 foot talon with twin outboards in this market is insane to me. but evidently people are willing to pay it...so maybe im the one thats crazy.

i took a quick look around and found several late 90s 25-32 foot cats with twin outboards and twin inboards that ran well over 100mph for less than 40k.

just a rant. maybe someone can explain why these tiny lil boats are worth so much money. i cant see it nor would i ever pay that much cash for a 22 foot boat.

Simply put new ones are well over 100,000.00 8-10 years back I saw a hot boat or powerboat that tested 8 or so 22-25 twin engine cats and I remember most were 125,000.00 range. Hope that answers your question.

[Donat]

If someone can buy rigging from top shelf (gauges steering an throtle and shifter plus all the shiny stuff) for 3k. I'll take two sets. And super nice interior is another 4-6k on 21 22 ft boat Etc etc

[JWTjr.]

This is exactly correct. my question is it increased manufacturing costs or simple greed? Seems to me if its the latter someone would step up and fill a niche market. JWT , you can probably answer this.

It's not greed in most cases. First, cost of materials has skyrocketed. Resin and 'glass has at least tripled in price since the 1990s, and so has the cost of everything else (no inflation, right? Buy a gallon of gas/milk/whatever lately?). Labor is more expensive too, though it hasn't increased nearly as much as materials. Liability insurance is one big factor driving cost up; buying it as a high performance boat manufacturer is insanely expensive, and so many go without--so they jack up the price of the boat with the feeling that "if i'm going to go to the trouble of building these, and possibly get sued, I am going to make money". I don't blame them. Couple these factors with today's "want it now, my way, can't wait, don't want to mess with it and it better go 100 right out of the box" mentality, and it adds up to less participation, less of a market. I hope it comes back around some day while i'm still around, but I keep having this feeling that we've already seen the best of performance outboarding. I hope like heck I'm wrong.

John

[1611odalys]

I was just talking about that with the wife cause she ask me the same question and when you make the list of everything and make numbers you realise is not sheap at all. But one thing is for sure the satisfaction you get when is done and make that first pass is PRICE LESS. Is about been proud of what you have. Just my 2 cents

[BUZZIN' DOZEN]

It's all bout supply & demand. I've got roughly $17k in a 19 yr old GrandSport with a 13yr old ProMax. Its almost like new but was much MUCH cheaper than a new one! Gonna pay for a QUALITY boat if its big, small, old or new.

Buzzin, you ready to sell that lil 21'? I'll give ya 20 for it!! LMFAO!
I don't think I'll ever sell it, unless a real nice chopper gun Checkmate comes along:rolleyes:

[JWS]

If someone can buy rigging from top shelf (gauges steering an throtle and shifter plus all the shiny stuff) for 3k. I'll take two sets. And super nice interior is another 4-6k on 21 22 ft boat Etc etc

I dont need total gauges, just bezels, dont need throttle, just shifter. Dont need a lot of shiny stuff just a couple of light receptacles, vent and a few pop up cleats. But yes I probably will go over 1K. Wishfull thinking I suppose.

As far as the interior goes, the foam was still good because was always kept dry. I did have to replace the wood in the backseat but did it myself and wood is cheap. The Upholstery is as original. base white with 5 color stripes and it looks as good as when it was new. 1800 is the going rate in this part of the world. Side panels were also done. I will post pics when I have time to figure out to do it.

[JWS]

It's not greed in most cases. First, cost of materials has skyrocketed. Resin and 'glass has at least tripled in price since the 1990s, and so has the cost of everything else (no inflation, right? Buy a gallon of gas/milk/whatever lately?). Labor is more expensive too, though it hasn't increased nearly as much as materials. Liability insurance is one big factor driving cost up; buying it as a high performance boat manufacturer is insanely expensive, and so many go without--so they jack up the price of the boat with the feeling that "if i'm going to go to the trouble of building these, and possibly get sued, I am going to make money". I don't blame them. Couple these factors with today's "want it now, my way, can't wait, don't want to mess with it and it better go 100 right out of the box" mentality, and it adds up to less participation, less of a market. I hope it comes back around some day while i'm still around, but I keep having this feeling that we've already seen the best of performance outboarding. I hope like heck I'm wrong.

John

No doubt you are probably right on all counts. Still is a killer thinking the days of small, affordable performance O/B's are in the rear view mirror.

[sxpilot]

Before I decided to built my own 22, I looked and couldnt find the right deal at the time.

To answer your question though, why my boat is worth 40K+? is simple

Bare Hull on trailer 14.5k
2x 1995 Merc 15" 260 Offshores 16.5k plus the ride home
MM Steering system 2k
Sportmaster Lowers 4k
Merc Props 1300.00
New Rigging, Pumps everything x2 3500

= 41800.00 CASH, and 600 hrs of labor to redo this one...

So I was told a bare hull is 25 to 30k and when I looked into doing a New KMC/DCB 22 it would have cost over 90k to build...

Sure you could buy a bigger boat for the same or Less than my 22 Talon cost but I can tell you the Thrill of DRIVING this Son of a Gun is NOTHING like a 25 tunnel...unless that 25 has 1000hp..

oh yeah and one more thing to think about, go try to build you one! you will be in it 40 to 45k...just like me and everyone else!

I love my Talon, is Frickin Bitchen and turns more heads than any other boat I have ever owned, its just sick!

HONEY BADGER DONT CARE!

[Tom Foley]

i just redid a 22 talon,one motor, everything has been done,with buying boat and transport im over 40k..:eek:..but im a little nutty............:smiletest: like everything better than new..:cool:



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/005-10.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/004-11.jpg


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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/011.jpg

Awesome Frank !! Like I said ...."Let's See'um !!!

[Frank Molé]

thanks tom,a few more things coming,and should have it MY WAY......................:thumbsup: :smiletest:

[StratosVT]

I was just talking about this the other day. It's why, in my opinion, the small fast outboard market has essentially disappeared since it's heyday (mid-1970s-late 1990s). In the late 1970s, you could buy a new HydroStream or Allison for $2k, a trailer for $500, a V6 Merc or OMC for another $3000 and rig it for another $500, and you're in a 80+ mph rig for $6k or so. In the late 1980s to mid 1990s that price rose to $20k, but an average middle class guy could still afford it. And, that was without loans--you NEVER borrowed money on a performance boat, that was a cardinal rule.

Today it's $17k for the (new) engine (and that's a bargain price), another $20k for the boat, another $3k for the trailer, and another $2500-$3k for the rigging. The OP is right--it's $40k or better and that's if you can swing a deal on some of the items! Want to get more disgusted--price a new Allison (or similar) bass boat lately? For a nice 21' with 250 power you're well into the $60s. I don't know too many middle class guys that can lay that out without a serious borrowing commitment.

John


All I can say is "time flys". When you grew up seeing those boats, it doesn't seem that long ago..... but it was. In 1980, $20k was a decent salary and I'm sure $8 to $10k was a lot of money for a boat then. Also, you didn't get as much for your $$$ back then. 80mph sucks by today's performance standards and back in the 80's you almost never saw a single engine boat bust 100mph unless it was a full on race boat. In todays dollars, I would guestimate that 8k in 1980 dollars is well north of $30k or equivalent to a new STV with a 300xs.

[stokernick]

Awesome Frank !! Like I said ...."Let's See'um !!!

all this,Tom,and I don't think he's run it!!!!!!!!!!!

[CDave]

It's not greed in most cases. First, cost of materials has skyrocketed. Resin and 'glass has at least tripled in price since the 1990s, and so has the cost of everything else (no inflation, right? Buy a gallon of gas/milk/whatever lately?). Labor is more expensive too, though it hasn't increased nearly as much as materials. Liability insurance is one big factor driving cost up; buying it as a high performance boat manufacturer is insanely expensive, and so many go without--so they jack up the price of the boat with the feeling that "if i'm going to go to the trouble of building these, and possibly get sued, I am going to make money". I don't blame them. Couple these factors with today's "want it now, my way, can't wait, don't want to mess with it and it better go 100 right out of the box" mentality, and it adds up to less participation, less of a market. I hope it comes back around some day while i'm still around, but I keep having this feeling that we've already seen the best of performance outboarding. I hope like heck I'm wrong.

John

Exactly right, plus all the EPA rules dealing with chemicals to build boats and the mandated low emission outboards. Look at painting today vs. in the 80's. I'd bet the water police have had an impact on it too.

You're right about the haydays. I remember being out on the water, in regular boats, around here back in the 80's and 90's and Bullets, STV's, Allisons, Liberators, Hydrostreams, etc. all over the place. I finally get an Allison back in early 2000's and hit the water. No high performance outboards any where. Only thing I see is a bunch of wakeboard boats and a bunch of "Cigarette" type boats.
If it wasn't for finding other HP outboard boat owners on the internet I would have been boating all alone.

I was getting gas one day and a man a bit older than me was gasing up his Bullet. I asked him where all the outboard hot rods are these days and he said, They got older and had family's. They gave up the hot rod boats.

[Mr. Demeanor]

I had a meeting with the production manager for one of the high end center console builders last week. We were talking costs and he stated the labor cost for building their smallest CC and big one were almost identical.

[Wild Bill]

Not to mention those bigger boats don't fit on the smaller inland lakes that I boat on

[Wild Bill]

Come on JWS we can blow up that engine just like A pro builder can

[mrcrsr]

i just redid a 22 talon,one motor, everything has been done,with buying boat and transport im over 40k..:eek:..but im a little nutty............:smiletest: like everything better than new..:cool:



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/005-10.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/004-11.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/006-5.jpg


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frank, the new boat looks great!! good luck w/ it

[hydrostream1]

How about 65,000 for a bass boat?,I'm at the bainbridge ,ga race,they have a bass boat on display with a Merc 250xs on it,YIKES!:eek:

[Frank Molé]

thanks charlie..................

[rock]

It's not only the small high performance stuff. I am redoing a freakin pontoon and have over $4000 in materials and am not even close to done. 5/8 treated plywood $72 a sheet, need 10. 8 small bench seats $1800. Carpet $15 lf for 8' roll, need 48'. The cost of everything is high and when you add it up at the end it will make you sick. They are all gonna cost big if you want them nice.

Rock

[Tom Foley]

How about 65,000 for a bass boat?,I'm at the bainbridge ,ga race,they have a bass boat on display with a Merc 250xs on it,YIKES!:eek:

Price a Hells Bay Technical Poling Skiff with a Tiller engine !!!!

[mr fun]

Price a Hells Bay Technical Poling Skiff with a Tiller engine !!!!

when I can build you a nice 16' flatbottom lapstraked rig that will do the samething for alot less outta the skiff mold? :iagree:

[JWTjr.]

I was just reviewing the "2012 Market Data Book" from Boating Industry magazine. Nothing so detailed as performance outboard boat sales statistics, but here are some really sobering numbers that ought to give you an idea of why performance outboarding, as a tiny slice of the overall boating market, is so slow:

New Powerboat sales 2000: 343,500
New Powerboat Sales 2011: 139,530

New Outboard Boat sales 2001: 217,800
Retail value 2001: $2,195,859,600
Avg. unit cost 2001: $10,082

New Outboard Boat Sales 2011: 115,750
Retail Value 2011: $2,126,000
Avg. unit cost 2011: $18,369

New Outboard Engine Sales 2004: 315,300
Retail Value 2004: $2,879,002,858
Avg. unit cost 2004: $9,131

New Outboard Engine Sales 2011: 178,500
Retail Value 2011: $1,794,000,000
Avg. unit cost 2011: $10,052


In 2011, overall the marine industry was down about 30% in sales from where it was at it's latest peak in 2006.

John

[F14]

HONEY BADGER DONT CARE!


so you did get my email.... :)

[JWS]

Come on JWS we can blow up that engine just like A pro builder can

Is that an offer? Wouldnt mind doing it with some help. Your comment last weekend about the story of hanging a ring made me think. Yup, we may as well explode it ourselves.

No lake today. too much crap to do here at the labor camp. Weds is supposed to be sunny and 85. You off? Will call ya when you get yer tired ass out of bed. later JEFF

[H20WKD]

I purchased used three Seasons ago, I feel I got my money's worth at 22k.:thumbsup:
263233
The Impeccable Quality of Allison Boats
The best of design and engineering processes must be teamed with exceptional materials and quality craftsmanship to obtain a uniquely useful, durable, and efficient product. Allison boasts the industry’s first and only welded and laminated Alloy grid transom reinforcement. Allison was first to eliminate transom rot from the list of boat owners’ woes. Metal transom reinforcement with no wood structure was perfected at Allison in the early eighties. Another significant first for Allison set an industry standard. In conjunction with the reinforced No-Rot transom, Allison simultaneously in the eighties removed all wood from the boat structure. Just in the last few years many other companies have started trying to emulate this standard. The Allison difference is a twenty year head start. The best design, engineering, and materials cannot build a superior product without an unusually high build quality.
At Allison, build quality is the product and responsibility of a few highly trained and experienced craftsmen. If you visit our plant on Monday and then again on Friday, chances are you will see most of the same boats at a slightly different level of completion. Hand fitment by skilled craftsmen of virtually every part of structure, superstructure, and each accessory assures the absolute highest quality boat available at any price. Each process is checked, checked again and then inspected. Each Allison Bass Boat for example, is the product of four to five times the man hours required to build our competitors’ similar sized boat. Hand lay-up of every ounce of cloth and resin is time consuming. So is the process of removing every extra ounce of unnecessary resin from the lay-up. Only with such measures can you build a truly exceptional and world class boat. Only one boat holds the most single engine world speed records. Only one Bass Boat can guarantee his owner to be the first to the fishing hole. Only Allison takes the care to design, engineer, and craft from the finest materials available a boat that will last your lifetime. That is the Allison Difference.
Bob

[Hoss Marine Propellers]

i just redid a 22 talon,one motor, everything has been done,with buying boat and transport im over 40k..:eek:..but im a little nutty............:smiletest: like everything better than new..:cool:



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/005-10.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/004-11.jpg


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http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/frankmole/011.jpg

Wow Frank !!!!!!
Truly an AMAZING Rig !!!!!...... Beautiful!!!!
From the boat to upholstry, to engine cover and trailer with wheels.....
I would love to see this boat in a S&F feature? & lots fo pics!!!

[delawarerick]

Supply and demand usually dictate price towability storeability and dammmmmmmmmmFrank that is real nice. Rick

[Frank Molé]

thanks tim and rick.................appreciate it...................... :thumbsup: :smiletest:

[MDSmitty]

but honestly! why would ANYBODY pay 35k, 40k, 45k....and even more for a 20 year old 22 foot cat with twin outboards??? seriously....you can go buy ALOT more boat for the same money!

All boats are too expensive.
Why? Because there are too many boat companies. All these tiny companies can't take advantage of economies of scale and automated design and manufacturing techniques. Everything they do is very labor-intensive and labor is a company's biggest expense. If boats were built like most cars they'd be much cheaper, but most are hand-built, like Rolls-Royces. So we pay Rolls-Royce prices.

The next thing is ... there's something going on psychologically when people who wouldn't think of spending $100,000 on a car think nothing of spending that much on something they use on weekends 4-5 months per year. Probably has to do with the way people look at purchases as a monthly payment instead of as a lump sum. And when you can get 15-year loans on a boat that monthly payment seems reasonable.

As far as the price of used ones - it starts with the new ones. If the new ones are expensive it raises the price of the used ones because their demand rises because they are bought as substitutes. A new 28' Skater with 300's is what, $180,000? So a used one is gonna be ridiculous too.

Now, outboard motors, I can't figure out. There are only a few companies and they are very automated, and the prices are still ridiculous. An outboard motor costs as much as a car. That's just insane. Anyone taken apart a 2-stroke motor. There just isn't a lot to it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a little bit of collusion going on. $900 for a new cowl? I can buy a 16' fiberglass canoe for less than that. $500 for a prop? Get serious. A prop is made in a normal cast mold. The reason all this stuff costs so much is because we're willing to pay it.

[Ziemer]

Go price a set of pistons for a 2.5/260 or 280...I tihnk retail now from Mercury is in the $450 range, and that's for one! Now multiply by 12, don't forget gaskets, bearings, labor to build, and oh yeah a replate or other machine work possibly needed. You could easily spend $5k-$6k per motor on re-builds. The stuff adds up quick. Call Livorsi and ask them what a new set of gauges costs for twin motors...$2000? Steering, $5000...trailer $5000... New interior $5000... the list goes on.

Bottom line, is there is a lot of junk out there...sure, you could find 22'-28' cats out there cheaper than $40k, but I'd be willing to bet you're still gonna have $40k or better to match the quality of one that has already been re-done, or is a mint condition original boat.

[2tonchevy]

thanks for all the replies!

im startin to understand why certain boats bring what they bring. supply and demand do indeed dictate what we pay for a said item.

my main curiosity was simply that people will walk by 25-30 foot cat that runs well over 100 mph for 10 and sometimes 20k less than a 21-22 foot cat thats 5-10 years older. just doesnt make sense to me. i boat on lake cumberland and surrounding lakes....so imo more boat is better....to a point of course. i wouldnt want anything over 32 feet long just for storage and towing purposes.

the main response i got from several people on this thread was the implication that i was misinformed and these mythical 100+mph/25-30ft boats i speak of did not exist. well they do. take a look around and you will find em just like i did. so if the argument that they dont exist has been sufficiently vanquished...now what?

and simply implying that all the boats i have found must be junk simply because they are priced competitively doesnt hold any water either. ive seen junk sell for 3 times what its worth...and ive seen good stuff go for pennies on the dollar. all boats are junk imo. lol they break all the time and always need money thrown at em. period.

i think i have just stumbled on what some would call a "niche market" theres an under supplied group of individuals that want these small cats and that drives the price up. and as others have informed me ...these boats were never made in vast quantities and havnt been made in years. so this makes sense.

....is there anyone out there that has thought the same thoughts as i have?

to each his own of course.....but im just not into paying more for less.....

[JWTjr.]

All boats are too expensive.
Why? Because there are too many boat companies. All these tiny companies can't take advantage of economies of scale and automated design and manufacturing techniques. Everything they do is very labor-intensive and labor is a company's biggest expense. If boats were built like most cars they'd be much cheaper, but most are hand-built, like Rolls-Royces. So we pay Rolls-Royce prices.

The next thing is ... there's something going on psychologically when people who wouldn't think of spending $100,000 on a car think nothing of spending that much on something they use on weekends 4-5 months per year. Probably has to do with the way people look at purchases as a monthly payment instead of as a lump sum. And when you can get 15-year loans on a boat that monthly payment seems reasonable.

As far as the price of used ones - it starts with the new ones. If the new ones are expensive it raises the price of the used ones because their demand rises because they are bought as substitutes. A new 28' Skater with 300's is what, $180,000? So a used one is gonna be ridiculous too.

Now, outboard motors, I can't figure out. There are only a few companies and they are very automated, and the prices are still ridiculous. An outboard motor costs as much as a car. That's just insane. Anyone taken apart a 2-stroke motor. There just isn't a lot to it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a little bit of collusion going on. $900 for a new cowl? I can buy a 16' fiberglass canoe for less than that. $500 for a prop? Get serious. A prop is made in a normal cast mold. The reason all this stuff costs so much is because we're willing to pay it.

Don't forget liability in all this. Can't discount the fact that since the late 1970s, lawsuits involving boats have exploded, including those that have touched even the smallest outboard hot boat manufacturers. I know that Bullet, Allison, HydroStream/Stroker, and others have all been subjected to lawsuits. That's not to mention of course Mercury, BRP and all the other outboard manufacturers. I know from experience that product liability is a huge expense, even if you're manufacturing a product in an industry that historically has seen especially low claims. If you're manufacturing a product in an industry where claims have been frequent and high, forget it.

Understand please that I am not defending high prices nor do I like them. I think boat and engine prices are, adjusted for time and inflation, about 25-30% higher than they should be. But what can you do? You buy if you have the money, don't buy or buy used and learn to repair if you don't. It is the same as it was 30 years ago, except as I mentioned earlier, it sure seems that back then, more of us could afford to buy new or nearly new. Now we're buying 7, 10, 15, 20 year old stuff and rebuilding it, trying to make it last. I know that's partially because the new outboards don't suit many of our needs (too heavy, not enough rpm, etc.).

John

[mikeylarge]

By the time I hang the new power on my 22 progression I will be pushing right around the same money as frank Mole has into his talon. This includes buying every part at cost, and doing every bit of labor myself...... You get what you pay for

[Ron V]

It's not only fast, small outboards. How about $90,000+ for a wakeboard boat. A 20 foot boat that serves one purpose. Can't even slalom ski behind it. They get that price because the yuppies that buy them are willing to pay it.

Other place you get screwed on the new stuff on the repair bills. Any idiot could work on a carburetor. Now even someone who has reasonable knowledge of engines can't work on a DFI motor in his garage.

[2tonchevy]

yeah i hafta agree....wakeboard boats are crazy expensive. and they ride like crap in any kinda rough water.

[930turbo]

I have $6k in a 14 footer that runs in the 70's...and I'm not done yet........and my wife does not monitor S&F ;)

[whipper]

I can go buy a 23fter for 30K that does 100mph Heck I can go buy a 22fter for 90K. But I have a 20.5 fter for under 20K that has done 105 with the 280 quicker than pretty much any 22+fter out there with a single and most with even twins:] So I have to say I think the market has some real bargins out there right now!!! But if ya want the cream of the crop like Franks for instance your going to pay for that effort for turn key best of the best in that style. Theres a Xb2002 for example that is really unreal compared to 90% of them out there. Best of everything and clean as a Lab!! Some guys want that and are willing to pay for that. No differant than a Ferrari or a Porche for that matter.

One can say why spend 100+K on a small two seat car when ya can have 5 seater for less? Because these exotics are quiker and handel better than the ford or Chev of the same size. Sorta the same thing really. They all do 100 but some get there way faster then others and are just more exotic.

Do ya pay for the name? Allison,STV,Tallon,Progression,Tuff,Hydrostream oh a and ya should. because they can garantee 100mph fit in your garage and cost way less on fuel than most other bigger boats that cost the same but are larger that wont fit in most persons garage and take a big truck to pull. Cost of ownership is also way higher the bigger ya go in every respect. With the price of Gas smaller boats are making a come back I feel? Thats just my opion on why I feel some smaller boats are so high priced in comparesin to some larger craft.

[TooStroked]

i just redid a 22 talon,one motor, everything has been done,with buying boat and transport im over 40k..:eek:..but im a little nutty............:smiletest: like everything better than new..:cool:



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You know, I've always thought the 22' Talon was one of the most beautiful, timeless designs ever built. But I have to say that yours is absolutely the most beautiful one I've ever seen. Truly outstanding!

Tom

[Frank Molé]

thank you very much tom................... :thumbsup: :smiletest: