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Stitch King
12-09-2012, 07:23 PM
Should lose a couple pounds with the shorter mid too.

mrcrsr
12-11-2012, 07:32 AM
the 15" mid is much lighter, i carried it in a crate of parts, i could barely lift the 20" mid off the boat, probably also has to do w/ the thickness of the casting

Liberator*21
12-11-2012, 08:02 AM
the 15" mid is much lighter, i carried it in a crate of parts, i could barely lift the 20" mid off the boat, probably also has to do w/ the thickness of the casting

Charlie,

:iagree: with Ken, loosing a few pounds can only increase the bottom line..................

MORE @ W.O.T. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did you start to machine the pivot tube yet ???

mrcrsr
12-12-2012, 07:34 AM
haven't had time gary, in the middle of building a couple of 280's, hopefully i'll be done w/ them and have them installed/running by the end of the weekend, and then i'll get back on the skater project. i need to shim up the swivel bracket over 1.5" on the lathe table so i need to figure out what to use, if i can't get it figured out i'll have to go harass charly, lol!

Liberator*21
12-12-2012, 08:09 AM
Charlie,

I use a hex hd bolt with the head shaved flat & square on a lathe and a flanged nut or extension nut when an adjustable shim/spacer/riser is needed hopefully that's all you'll need. Good luck on the 280's.

Chaz
12-12-2012, 10:31 PM
Charlie,

I use a hex hd bolt with the head shaved flat & square on a lathe and a flanged nut or extension nut when an adjustable shim/spacer/riser is needed hopefully that's all you'll need.

You know it's much easier for him to come harass me than to go through all that ... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-022.gif

mrcrsr
12-14-2012, 07:31 AM
now what fun would that be not giving it a try!! i've got to head up to apple or turner and buy some various thickness pieces of aluminum for shims, if i can't figure out out i'll be over to visit!! i know you're busy and if its something i can do here i'll give it a try

Chaz
12-14-2012, 08:43 AM
http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/chinese-bow-005.gif

Liberator*21
12-14-2012, 09:30 AM
You guys are a trip........:D

Todd D
12-16-2012, 09:19 PM
Luv this thread! Can't believe I've missed this much......


Gary did you ever talk to Simon about programing your knock sensors into the motorola ecu like the 200 work 3L EFI?

Liberator*21
12-17-2012, 05:21 AM
Luv this thread! Can't believe I've missed this much......


Gary did you ever talk to Simon about programing your knock sensors into the motorola ecu like the 200 work 3L EFI?

Hey Todd,

No I haven't. I want to try the current stand alone set up I have when spring comes before I do anything else. Thanks for ask'n though.

mrcrsr
01-07-2013, 06:54 AM
got all the bushings made for the clamp bracket, reshot the whole thing and put it together yesterday, looks cool! of course now i don't have enough travel on my steering in one direction because the factory merc 15" clamp bracket adds roughly 1.5" of setback to the whole package, so my ram doesn't have enough travel, i'll have to redrill the hole in the wingplate or fab up another plate.

Liberator*21
01-07-2013, 07:01 AM
Charlie,
Sorry to hear the additional issues. Seems like you can't get a break no matter what you do.

Todd D
01-07-2013, 09:18 AM
got all the bushings made for the clamp bracket, reshot the whole thing and put it together yesterday, looks cool! of course now i don't have enough travel on my steering in one direction because the factory merc 15" clamp bracket adds roughly 1.5" of setback to the whole package, so my ram doesn't have enough travel, i'll have to redrill the hole in the wingplate or fab up another plate.

They make a longer threaded end to screw on the ram.

mrcrsr
01-07-2013, 05:36 PM
i already another ordred another piece of aluminum, and i'll just make another wingplate, it just doesn't end, lol!! it was a pita putting the powerhead back on as well, it would've been nice if the taylor mid had a lil more clearance around the powerhead nuts. ended up grinding down a wrench and was waiting for that to break!

Dave Strong
01-07-2013, 07:27 PM
i already another ordred another piece of aluminum, and i'll just make another wingplate, it just doesn't end, lol!! it was a pita putting the powerhead back on as well, it would've been nice if the taylor mid had a lil more clearance around the powerhead nuts. ended up grinding down a wrench and was waiting for that to break!

Wrench won't break till you have to pull the powerhead. LOL
Any pics?

Dave

mrcrsr
01-08-2013, 05:46 PM
hopefully that'll be awhile, lol http://i49.tinypic.com/29cqcqt.jpg

mrcrsr
01-08-2013, 05:48 PM
http://i50.tinypic.com/25qyp3t.jpg

baja200merk
01-08-2013, 06:49 PM
How can I say this nicely????



I hate you :D

Dave Strong
01-08-2013, 07:07 PM
hopefully that'll be awhile, lol http://i49.tinypic.com/29cqcqt.jpg

Plate looks good but may want to round those back corners off a tad, would look better with rounded cowel shape. Not to mention they seem to be around "ball" height. :eek::D

Dave:)

mrcrsr
01-09-2013, 06:53 AM
actually thats the old one, pulled it off to use as a template, the new one is already rough cut and sitting in the mill, i'll definetely put more curves in this one. still have to build 2 gearcases for the boat as well

1 Tuff 69
01-09-2013, 08:14 AM
Looking good there charlie !

Frank Molé
01-09-2013, 05:49 PM
looks good,hope to see you in march..................

mrcrsr
01-10-2013, 06:47 AM
definetely frank, don't know if i'm going to make the suwanee, river ranch is april

mrcrsr
01-12-2013, 08:05 AM
here's the new wingplate, made out of 6061 aluminum http://i48.tinypic.com/2lu2k9t.jpg

mrcrsr
01-12-2013, 08:24 AM
http://i47.tinypic.com/fdbn8k.jpg

Liberator*21
01-12-2013, 08:30 AM
Looks great with the shine job you put on it......:cheers:

Dave Strong
01-12-2013, 10:57 AM
Looks Good, polishing was a nice touch.

Dave

Chaz
01-13-2013, 08:19 AM
Yea , datz da eZy part ...... but what about around the edge's ... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-022.gif

mrcrsr
01-13-2013, 08:37 AM
the edges were a pita, did it in the mill and made up a pattern out of thin cardboard that i followed after a taped the cardboard to the wingplate, definetely handy having a mill, wish i had more space so i could get something bigger! hopefully i'll have the boat running today.

Frank Molé
01-13-2013, 09:18 AM
looks ready for the suwanee.....:thumbsup:.........nice job.:cheers:

Chaz
01-13-2013, 02:40 PM
I was joking about what it takes to make the cut edges look like the factory forged area's .. :D

No matter how big the shop , it's never big enough. No matter how big the machine, there will always be a part that you just cant grab. And if ya can grab it, ya just cant swing it .. or the table aint long enough to make a full pass ... LOL

Dave Strong
01-13-2013, 05:58 PM
I was joking about what it takes to make the cut edges look like the factory forged area's .. :D

No matter how big the shop , it's never big enough. No matter how big the machine, there will always be a part that you just cant grab. And if ya can grab it, ya just cant swing it .. or the table aint long enough to make a full pass ... LOL

:iagree: That is so true.
Also no matter how your boat is, it's never quite enough. :eek::D

Dave

Liberator*21
01-14-2013, 08:31 AM
found that the poppet valve is open at around 4 psi?? i run an external poppet dump in tandem w/ drystacking in the mid, cranked it up and had water coming out of the dump at idle. pulled it apart, the seal looks good in the poppet, so i'll replace the whole assy, maybe the spring is weak or it has the wrong poppet stem, not sure as i bought this stuff all together. i know usually they don't open until 10 psi, the 3 litre is supposed to be regulated to 12 if i remember correctly


Charlie,

Water dribble at idle out of the Poppet in normal with the Simon kit. I had the same issue and spoke to Eric about it and he replied that it was normal to have a small stream coming out at idle.

mrcrsr
01-15-2013, 07:55 AM
here it is fully assembled http://i47.tinypic.com/2ebx3if.jpg

mrcrsr
01-15-2013, 08:08 AM
i'm waiting on the trim indicator for the 15" midsection from stainless marine, would take too much work to modify the 20" one. talk about assembly problems, you'd think mercury could remember to install all the parts in a 2600$ gear housing, it comes w/ a new zinc installed along w/ the alignment dowel pins on the top, and even a tag to ensure you fill a bare housing w/ gear oil, but yet they leave out one of the most important parts, the dowel pin the shift bellcrank sits on. i called merc customer service, instead of apologizing or anything else they say send it back, after i waited 2 months for it and paid another 140$ in expedited shipping to get it, gotta love mercury sometimes http://i50.tinypic.com/2q8tvtc.jpg

mrcrsr
01-15-2013, 08:10 AM
it was an oddball dowel pin that tapers down on the bottom, so i couldn't substitute a normal dowel pin, and you cannot get inside the housing w/ a pair of visegrips to pull it, the solution-cut up a complete fleetmaster i had here that got water in it http://i45.tinypic.com/sea88n.jpg http://i46.tinypic.com/kedfyt.jpg

Frank Molé
01-15-2013, 05:03 PM
o man....nuts

mrcrsr
01-16-2013, 07:40 AM
it gets better, ups shows up w/ the trim indicator and it is for a 20" integral trim engine, some things are just not meant to be ,lol! this is after i had a discussion w/ stainless marine to see if they made the indicator to mount on the stbd side instead of the port side for a 15" mid, amazing people are so clueless

Liberator*21
01-16-2013, 09:45 AM
it gets better, ups shows up w/ the trim indicator and it is for a 20" integral trim engine, some things are just not meant to be ,lol! this is after i had a discussion w/ stainless marine to see if they made the indicator to mount on the stbd side instead of the port side for a 15" mid, amazing people are so clueless

Damm :eek: Charlie, I think your way over due for some "GOOD LUCK" to happen.......:)

Frank Molé
01-16-2013, 05:38 PM
it gets better, ups shows up w/ the trim indicator and it is for a 20" integral trim engine, some things are just not meant to be ,lol! this is after i had a discussion w/ stainless marine to see if they made the indicator to mount on the stbd side instead of the port side for a 15" mid, amazing people are so clueless

not to bad,i could wright a book about my build,all will be good when we use them and they dont break our balls.........................:eek::cool::thumbsup::cheers:

mrcrsr
01-17-2013, 06:59 AM
exactly frank, just a matter of getting to the point of being able to use them! ran it yesterday without a trim indicator and all seems good. i need to make some kind of shield for the bottom of the stainless marine jackplate, w/ the jackplate fully down it sends water shooting up the inside of the jackplate and showers the bottom of the cowling. its funny because the lower edge of the jackplate that slides up and down is 1/8" above the bottom of the hull but also is back 7", so its scooping water. if you bump the jackplate up once it goes away.

Frank Molé
01-17-2013, 05:27 PM
exactly frank, just a matter of getting to the point of being able to use them! ran it yesterday without a trim indicator and all seems good. i need to make some kind of shield for the bottom of the stainless marine jackplate, w/ the jackplate fully down it sends water shooting up the inside of the jackplate and showers the bottom of the cowling. its funny because the lower edge of the jackplate that slides up and down is 1/8" above the bottom of the hull but also is back 7", so its scooping water. if you bump the jackplate up once it goes away.

its the small details that make us DIFFERENT....FROM THE REST...............................:eek: :cool: :thumbsup: :cheers:

Liberator*21
01-18-2013, 05:10 AM
Charlie, here's one of many that I've built, might just give you some ideas.........

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?201578-Skid-Planer-pictures-build-a-better-mouse-trap&highlight=Skid+plate

mrcrsr
01-18-2013, 06:50 AM
thats cool gary! i built one yesterday out of a piece of aluminum, it was a pita because the outer part that the engine bolts to and slides up/down potrudes below the stationary part, so i used 3/8" aluminum shims in the front, drilled and tapped the jackplate for 2 10/24 bolts, and made a l bracket in the aft part to support the plate, it goes from the bottom ram mount bolt to the plate w/ the bracket made of sst. i'll get some pics up

Dave Strong
01-18-2013, 11:37 AM
Charlie, here's one of many that I've built, might just give you some ideas.........

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?201578-Skid-Planer-pictures-build-a-better-mouse-trap&highlight=Skid+plate

The adjustable feature is cool.

Dave

mrcrsr
01-21-2013, 07:59 AM
i'll have to get some pics up of the plate. ran the boat this weeknd and ended up putting 150 miles on it without any hiccups. it didn't gain any speed at all from the 15" mid, i figured i'd gain something getting the cowling out of the wind but no such luck. i guess it looks cool though, lol! haven't had it offshore yet to see if there was any improvement in handling. my next thing i need to do outside of the intake redesign is getting the thru hull pickup installed, the boat has the flange installed on the stbd side inside the hull w/ the hose coming off of it going to a thru bulkheah connector at the transom but there is no pickup installed, so i need to figure that out

Da Bull
01-22-2013, 09:31 AM
Ya`ll are amazing. I`ve been keeping up with this project and it has helped me with my own 3.0L deel.

DB

opsdave
01-22-2013, 09:35 AM
Must be nice to be able to do some boating....... It was 6* this morning with an expected high of 14*! Our river temp is around 38*. Looking good Charlie!

mrcrsr
01-25-2013, 07:41 AM
a lil chilly here this am dave, 61 degrees:p i'm gonna try the 32p drag4 this sunday, see how that does. i need to fab up a thru hull pickup next.

opsdave
01-25-2013, 08:11 AM
We've been having a hard time getting into double digit temps all week here!! It was 3 degrees one morning this week. It's a good thing I have a block heater in the old Cummins!

That drag 4 shoud do well. Seems like a lot of tunnel hulls like that prop.

Liberator*21
01-25-2013, 09:41 AM
Dave's right, Drag 4's and there clones are really a good fit for tunnel hulls, just the right amount of lift for those types of hulls.

I'll be down next week on the 30th Charlie, hoping for some warm weather during my stay, I'm like Dave as far as our weather goes too.....I'll call you after I land and pick up my rental car and hit the road....see ya then.....:D

mrcrsr
01-26-2013, 07:41 AM
sounds great gary, look fwd to seeing you! fortunately winter isn't that long.

Stitch King
01-26-2013, 08:13 PM
Gary, Bring your sunscreen.... On the 30th it's supposed to be Sunny, 81 and 0% chance of rain. See you guys Wednesday.

Ken

Liberator*21
01-27-2013, 05:03 AM
Ken,
You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to some warmth, on second thought, yes you do, your from Michigan........LOL. See you guys Wednesday.

vnemous
01-27-2013, 08:13 AM
Ken,
You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to some warmth, on second thought, yes you do, your from Michigan........LOL. See you guys Wednesday.

Gary get over and meet Chaz. You have a lot in common with your fabrication abilities. Im sure Mrcrsr could introduce you.

Liberator*21
01-27-2013, 09:10 AM
I hear ya but I've got a limited schedule before I need to get back to Orlando, I'll see how it goes. I'd like nothing more than to spend more time there to meet and see all that I could but it's just not gonna happen on this trip.

mrcrsr
01-29-2013, 07:23 AM
give me a call when you get in gary, and i'll drive up wherever you guys want to meet, gotta go to work for at least 1/2 day tomorrow. ran the drag 4, very comparable to the pro et, acceleration is good, but slip in the mid ranges is higher. top end was good, but i need more pitch??! the 32p drag4 actually turns more rpm then the 30p pro et, so not sure on that one, but the drag4 looks like it has less blade area the the et. i need to run both props on the same day so i get a clear comparison

Liberator*21
01-29-2013, 07:55 AM
Charlie, you are correct in stating the Pro ET having more surface area than the Drag 4, I think the small surface area on the D4 is the slip factor in the mid range as I noticed the same thing when I ran both of those props. I currently settled on a worked Pro ET (X-tra cup in the tips) for the better of both worlds.

Sent you and Ken a PM for tomorrow, my flight doesn't get in till around noon.

Liberator*21
02-04-2013, 06:22 AM
Ken,
Charlie,

Got back home without issues and had to shovel snow.....LMAO, its a little bit of a let down when one minute your in shorts and a tee shirt, and 2 hours later your on the end of a snow blower.......:eek:

Just wanted to say that the wife and I had a great time with you guys and the ladies. It was really great to see you all again and, Ken, great choice on restaurants Saturday, food was KILLER.

Charlie, the Camaro looked sweet, very impressive ride. Take care all and enjoy the great weather you have, I'll just have to wait a little longer for the warm stuff.........:D

Thanks again for a great time.........:cheers:.

Stitch King
02-28-2013, 09:11 AM
Hey Charlie,

What's the latest on this project? It's been over 20 days since an update...

Ken

Liberator*21
02-28-2013, 10:17 AM
Hey Charlie,

What's the latest on this project? It's been over 20 days since an update...

Ken

SLACKER........................:reddevil::D

Dave Strong
02-28-2013, 10:39 AM
Hey Charlie,

What's the latest on this project? It's been over 20 days since an update...

Ken


Think the bike has him sidetracked. :D Sometimes its good to take a brake. :thumbsup::smiletest:

Dave

captainsteve
02-28-2013, 02:23 PM
He finished the bike now he's doing the GTO

Stitch King
02-28-2013, 07:46 PM
Oh yes, forgot about the GTO.

Liberator*21
03-01-2013, 05:26 AM
So many toys and so little time...........LOL.

mrcrsr
03-01-2013, 07:00 AM
as steve said i'm now in gto mode, been slacking off on that project! the boat has been running well, so its kinda backburnered for now. how has everyone been doing?

Liberator*21
03-01-2013, 08:17 AM
Glad to hear she's run'n well Charlie, fully understand your position. Enjoy your play time.

Like I said earlier, had a great time with you guys when I was there.

PanRonnie
03-02-2013, 08:46 AM
also applicable to the GTO :smiletest:
only needs someone to try it out :reddevil:

mrcrsr
03-03-2013, 07:09 AM
i'm going to pilfer the 5 speed tremec from the camaro, and the camaro is getting a 4l80e-electronically controlled turbo 400 w/ overdrive-ronnie, you could probably answer this-will a microsquirt computer run that transmission or do i need to order another wolf ecu?

PanRonnie
03-03-2013, 09:17 AM
that,s outside my comfort zone
but there seems to be a lot out there for the transmission

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/index.html
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=36882
http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/4L80E/4L80e.html

but it,s probably best to ask there :cheers:

PanRonnie
08-20-2013, 01:31 PM
it,s been quit for so long here just thought i throw this in
wat do you think
scale is rubbisch as are the finer details offcourse but you get the idea !
could possibly add a slide intake

PanRonnie
08-25-2013, 12:54 PM
something like this

Liberator*21
08-25-2013, 02:49 PM
Ronnie, You thinking of a slide type throttle control similar to Tony's SVS System, should work. It worked great on the SVS I had on my ol 250 EFI.

PanRonnie
08-26-2013, 11:37 AM
yes exactly
you would be able to tune the air flow to the engine
not only by the lenght of the intake spacer but also the flow size inside the spacer restricting it or opening it up
unfortunately getting that base plate machined will cost an arm and a leg
maybe it,s an idea to cast that in epoxy resin with the cut out,s put in as inserts bolt holes are not that difficult to machine
or maybe 3D printing is around the corner would also make it a lot easier with the intake spacer,s
but it,s very low on my to do list
since i don,t own a johnny rude but maybe i gave someone an idea

the Technicolor version

mrcrsr
10-01-2013, 06:40 AM
in my spare time i have been trying to find plugs to blank off the injector ports in the mad efi intake, my first thought was brass freezeout plugs- aprox 13/16 diameter- but they only make them in steel that size, any ideas? mad efi does not make block off plugs for the 3 litre intake

Liberator*21
10-01-2013, 06:45 AM
Charlie, 1/4-18 NPT Tap fits the existing injector holes nicely, just don't tap to deep add brass plugs.....done. Apply some pipe thread sealer and your good to go. Holes are fully reusable.

PanRonnie
10-01-2013, 10:33 AM
rubber insert with a cover/block off plate maybe?

mrcrsr
10-01-2013, 07:17 PM
that would work gary, I just didn't want to damage it if the horn performed better. there's always a quest for some more horses, lol! on another note I am getting ready to do captain steves engine again after the cylinder head fiasco from the man to my south, I am going to go a lil further on the port timing, as the trick would pull like a farm implement up to 6500 and then would slowly pull to 6800, at 100 mph. probably could've put more wheel on it to go faster.

MODVP22
10-24-2013, 10:19 AM
Subscribed

mrcrsr
02-04-2014, 07:14 PM
well I decided to reach into the cowling for the quest for more hp! boat has gone a best of 106 with a stock 32 p pro et, at 7k rpm on the limiter, 1.75 ratio. I sent that brand new wheel out to have it modified, any way it didn't turn out so well, I'm down to 103 at 6300 rpm. I regret not trying that prop with a set of 1.62's(I have another sporty w/ that ratio but the skeg has been cut down so I'm leery to really run it with that case) I have another friend sending me an untouched 32 pro et to try, and then I will run the 1.62. engine has aprox 200 hours on it, leakdown is between 2-4 percent. so here we go, here is the engine in its exsisting configuration http://i61.tinypic.com/v6ji1w.jpg

mrcrsr
02-04-2014, 07:20 PM
a couple of issues I already see, the injector duty cycle is at 80% at 4500, which is where peak torque is. I am going to bring the fuel pressure up to 60 psi, and hopefully that will help- I am currently at 50 psi. I need to redo the linkage for the mad efi intake, and I hope I have enough travel in my linkage for it to work or I have to reengineer my primary throttle arm. reeds looked perfect still, so all was reused. http://i62.tinypic.com/2wc2xyw.jpg

mrcrsr
02-04-2014, 07:23 PM
I tapped the injector holes in the intake to 1/8 npt, and installed pipe plugs with epoxy on them. I will give some updates once I get it running, I'm curious to see how much more fuel it requires, I still have the wideband to install and will probably use it tuning the engine this time. the intake definitely looks bad ass on the engine! http://i59.tinypic.com/2lig4d5.jpg

Liberator*21
02-05-2014, 05:49 AM
Look'n Bad Azz Charlie. Your going to need allot more fuel my friend........LOL, been there-done that and still working on it........LMAO!!!!!

Last time out in 2013, I tried everything I could throw at it it short of a programmable ECU. Air supply was not the problem, fuel was or should I say the big lack of it. 80-85 MPH was it, than it ran into a stone wall, wouldn't go any faster. I too played with the fuel pressure, 58 psi was the highest I had mine up to with very little difference. Hopefully you'll be able to squeeze more fuel output with the WOLF ECU cause your gonna need it my friend.

i've gonna down the road to add fuel in a different way, yet to be tested on water, but it sure sprays a real nice cone pattern mist that is atomized enough for a clean burn. Only sprays fuel and opens up at WOT, it's still a work in progress.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Fuel%20Spray%20Bar%20MAD%20EFI/9bff227e-828b-4e61-af69-a6f2a7757992_zpsc03f21df.jpg~original (http://s177.photobucket.com/user/90profx/media/Fuel%20Spray%20Bar%20MAD%20EFI/9bff227e-828b-4e61-af69-a6f2a7757992_zpsc03f21df.jpg.html)

opsdave
02-05-2014, 07:09 AM
Charlie

If you still have the stock throttle arm that bolts to the block the linkage should just bolt right on at the bottom.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab236/davedeem1/20130719_180707_zpsjwlqztk6.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/davedeem1/media/20130719_180707_zpsjwlqztk6.jpg.html)

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab236/davedeem1/e02ac7e9-b7a8-476e-a749-ec530417602e_zpsa4deee03.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/davedeem1/media/e02ac7e9-b7a8-476e-a749-ec530417602e_zpsa4deee03.jpg.html)

mrcrsr
02-05-2014, 07:29 AM
I had to cut one up dave to get the horn system to work. its funny, if you measure from the center of the butterfly shaft to the pivot point for the linkage to attach on the horn intake it is the same measurement as the mad intake. so, in theory my exsisting throttle arm should work. interesting set up you got going there gary, what are you using for the fuel source? I'd start to get concerned if you are using the little efi pump in the vst, definitely need to keep an eye on your fuel pressure. I run the Weldon fuel pump in the boat, supposedly good to 600 hp on a 4 stroke v8, I don't think i'll run into fuel supply issues any time soon:D

Liberator*21
02-05-2014, 07:39 AM
I had to cut one up dave to get the horn system to work. its funny, if you measure from the center of the butterfly shaft to the pivot point for the linkage to attach on the horn intake it is the same measurement as the mad intake. so, in theory my exsisting throttle arm should work. interesting set up you got going there gary, what are you using for the fuel source? I'd start to get concerned if you are using the little efi pump in the vst, definitely need to keep an eye on your fuel pressure. I run the Weldon fuel pump in the boat, supposedly good to 600 hp on a 4 stroke v8, I don't think i'll run into fuel supply issues any time soon:D

Charlie,
Not running any pump in the VST, VST is from a early XRI motor, just using as a fuel return catch from the rail. I'm running a external Walbro EFI pump good to 500 HP on a 4 stroke V8, no issues there either. Fuel for the spray bars comes off the the fuel return on the fuel rail, so the spray bars are seeing 58 PSI, totally atomized fuel mist is the output.

mrcrsr
02-05-2014, 02:08 PM
Nice gary. U should inject some laughing gas with it!

opsdave
02-06-2014, 06:56 AM
Nice gary. U should inject some laughing gas with it!


I told him the same thing LMAO!

mrcrsr
02-06-2014, 07:09 AM
it looks like part of a nitrous system! all you need is one more solenoid and a spray bar and you're good to go! got the linkage done last nite, was able to reuse my old modified throttle arm, I couldn't go back to the stock style because the fuel rail would be in the way. next up is to hookup the laptop and calibrate the tps

mrcrsr
02-07-2014, 07:15 AM
I fired it up last nite, li rite off and sounds good. my fuel pressure was at 52 psi, brought it up to 60. the engine seems happy, but I need to see how much timing(or lack of) the wolf is putting into the engine at idle, to get the air bleed diameters set properly. more timing and less air at idle keeps the plugs clean and makes the motor more responsive.

mrcrsr
02-23-2014, 05:06 PM
took it out on the maiden voyage today with the mad efi, had to add alot of fuel to the curve, and this is after i brought the fuel pressure up to 60 psi from 52. at 3k rpm fueling went up 15%, and thats as far as i got. my laptop locked up in the middle of tuning the engine, had to shut the laptop off, as cntrl/alt/delete didn't work. went to restart it and it says the computer is missing a file and looking for the install disk?? engine did feel good, i took out all the individual cylinder corrections figuring i'll start from scratch.

Liberator*21
02-23-2014, 06:32 PM
took it out on the maiden voyage today with the mad efi, had to add alot of fuel to the curve, and this is after i brought the fuel pressure up to 60 psi from 52.

Quote:Your going to need allot more fuel my friend........LOL, been there-done that and still working on it........LMAO!!!!! Unquote.......


Seems someone mentioned that.........LOL !!!!!!!!!

Liberator*21
03-02-2014, 06:31 AM
Any progress Charlie ?

I'm back to the drawing board as the home made injectors didn't pass the bench test before install, there is some sort of material in the nozzles that's breaking down over time when fuel hits it. Think I'm just gonna run some more injectors rather than try to reinvent the wheel.

mrcrsr
03-02-2014, 08:36 AM
i'm actually going out today for some more tuning on it. we'll see how it goes!

Liberator*21
03-02-2014, 09:48 AM
i'm actually going out today for some more tuning on it. we'll see how it goes!

Wish ya the best Charlie...............:thumbsup:

mrcrsr
03-03-2014, 07:35 AM
engine is now apart for a sleeve,piston and a lil more porting. it went lean on number 5 and scored the cylinder. oh well!

opsdave
03-03-2014, 07:47 AM
engine is now apart for a sleeve,piston and a lil more porting. it went lean on number 5 and scored the cylinder. oh well!

What a bummer! How did it feel before it went? Any more power over the horn?

Liberator*21
03-03-2014, 08:55 AM
WOW....:eek:....Really sorry to hear that Charlie. To ensure I don't have the same issue I'm going with 12 injectors, 6-300x in the reed plate & 6 Honda 1.5L in the MAD intake. The Honda injectors only come on at 3/4 to WOT. I'm having my injector guy set up the Honda injectors to flow the same cc/min as my original home made nozzles did, that'll be a good starting point.

Todd D
03-03-2014, 09:10 AM
Gary why don't you just ditch the pink tips and replace them with higher flowing khein injectors....

Liberator*21
03-03-2014, 09:16 AM
Hey Todd, How ya do'n......

I'm still feeling out the unknown at this stage, that maybe the end fix but still feeling my way through this fuel issue. Besides this allows me to play with the motor until the winter weather finally calls it quits, its been a pretty ugly winter up here.

EFIGUY12
03-03-2014, 09:24 AM
You guys are doing some cool stuff!
Liberator 21, what ECU are you running?
A lot of the newer sport bikes like the cbr600rr are using dual stage injectors similar to what you are working on. Those engines rev 14000-15,000 rpms and in turn have very little time to get enough fuel into the combustion camber. This type of injection setup developed by F1 teams.
Here is a video of a F1 engine (dual stage injection) on the dyno with shower head style injectors.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nZLv1laGguo
it starts around 20 seconds.

Carl

Liberator*21
03-03-2014, 09:45 AM
Hey Carl,

I'm running the OEM ECU. This whole project is just "PLAY TIME" for me. I'm not one to go out and buy a bolt on and go, I'm into one-off stuff and I'd rather take the long road and feel my way through it and learn something along the way. Like I mentioned earlier, it makes the winter months somewhat bearable.

Todd D
03-03-2014, 11:41 AM
Hooking that thing up to the truck and drag it to Florida would make the winter even more bearable!!!! ;) just sayin'

Dave Strong
03-03-2014, 11:52 AM
engine is now apart for a sleeve,piston and a lil more porting. it went lean on number 5 and scored the cylinder. oh well!

Sorry to hear about the lean out. Good luck next time!!!

Dave

Liberator*21
03-03-2014, 11:56 AM
Hooking that thing up to the truck and drag it to Florida would make the winter even more bearable!!!! ;) just sayin'


I need to hit the Lottery and get myself a winter home in FL, that's the ticket........:D

baja200merk
03-03-2014, 12:03 PM
engine is now apart for a sleeve,piston and a lil more porting. it went lean on number 5 and scored the cylinder. oh well!

Sounds like you had it dialed in pretty good for the horn! The mad intake must be giving 1&2,5&6 much more air. Should be mean when you get it dialed in :thumbsup:

Dave Strong
03-03-2014, 12:06 PM
I need to hit the Lottery and get myself a winter home in FL, that's the ticket........:D

:iagree::iagree: Pretty sick of the deep freeze, been to cold to Sled even.


Dave

MODVP22
03-03-2014, 01:34 PM
I need to hit the Lottery and get myself a winter home in FL, that's the ticket........:D

adopt me if you do ;)

mrcrsr
03-03-2014, 05:29 PM
I had taken out all the corrections for the horn and maybe went a little too quick in building the map. I think I'm going to go back to pulling a couple of degrees of timing out of 2 and 5, and also add a lil more fuel to those cylinders as well before I start again. The engine definitely felt way stronger was around 4 k rpm steady state when it did it. Probably will head back to the dyno as well. Dropped it off at the machinist already and hopefully we can just punch that cylinder .030 and be done. I also am going a lil further on the port timing as well

Liberator*21
03-03-2014, 05:37 PM
I told you it would put out some serious torque, gotta love that end of it. I hope the 30 over works out for ya.

mrcrsr
03-05-2014, 07:49 AM
.030 will work, ordered the piston yesterday, and hopefully will have it back together by next weekend. i am still kind of surprised how much more fuel this intake requires.

Liberator*21
03-05-2014, 07:58 AM
i am still kind of surprised how much more fuel this intake requires.

Charlie, you gotta consider your allowing the motor to flow approx 3X more air than with a horn or downdraft......... Same situation I've run into....."Needs More Fuel".

Glad to hear .03 will get you back up and running.

Todd D
03-05-2014, 08:08 AM
I have a hard time believing that it's really 3x the air. I think that the reed blocks are a restriction.

opsdave
03-05-2014, 08:12 AM
I have a hard time believing that it's really 3x the air. I think that the reed blocks are a restriction.

I agree. It surely allows more airflow, but the reed blocks are now the bottle neck.

Liberator*21
03-05-2014, 08:19 AM
I have a hard time believing that it's really 3x the air. I think that the reed blocks are a restriction.

Correct on 3X the air, that's why I said "Approx"......LOL.
I had it figured out at one time by calculating the total sq in opening in the down draft vs the 3 horn MAD and it was better than 2.5X the size. You are also correct in stating that the reeds are the restriction, but you also have to consider that it's "Vacuum" and not pressure that's sucking in the air and vacuum is a very powerful force that can over come restrictions to a point more so than pressure. All I can tell you is that running the motor till it dead heads at 85 MPH with the cowl off and using a spray bottle, spraying fuel into the horns it picks up and goes for that instant of the extra fuel sprayed, that's a fact.

baja200merk
03-05-2014, 11:30 AM
Charlie are you going to just raise the ports or change roof angles too?

mrcrsr
03-05-2014, 02:38 PM
At the rpm it was at not up to the point of the Reed cages being a restriction. Torque output was definitely up, and the modified cages in this engine flow a lil more then 10% over what the stock 300x cages flow.
A

mrcrsr
03-31-2014, 06:24 AM
ported the engine a lil further, had the one hole punched .030, have new piston on hand. if figured while it was apart i might as well rering it. took all the rings off, put the pistons in the parts washer and as i was bring ing them back to the bench a locating pin fell out in my hand! i guess maybe it was a good thing this motor came apart when it did. i checked all the pistons and it looks like there maybe 1 more with a loose pin. thing only had 250 hours on the pistons! i'm ordering a new set today.

MaDneSS
03-31-2014, 06:34 AM
Any pics of porting/stuffing etc you've done? :)

Dave Strong
03-31-2014, 10:01 AM
ported the engine a lil further, had the one hole punched .030, have new piston on hand. if figured while it was apart i might as well rering it. took all the rings off, put the pistons in the parts washer and as i was bring ing them back to the bench a locating pin fell out in my hand! i guess maybe it was a good thing this motor came apart when it did. i checked all the pistons and it looks like there maybe 1 more with a loose pin. thing only had 250 hours on the pistons! i'm ordering a new set today.

Who made the pistons? Forged or cast?

Dave

mrcrsr
03-31-2014, 01:07 PM
They are vertex

Dave Strong
03-31-2014, 01:11 PM
Good thing you found the loose pins. So all new piston now?

Dave

mrcrsr
03-31-2014, 06:07 PM
I guess at this point the pistons are a 250 hour change out part. Ordered another set of vertex. My machinist said he could top pin a set but what would I do for rings? He can modify the rings but I need a set that don't have grooves cut in them so we can groove them after the fact. Wiseco pistons were suggested but I've never had good luck with them in a mercury but supposedly the pins don't come loose.

Dave Strong
03-31-2014, 08:13 PM
I guess at this point the pistons are a 250 hour change out part. Ordered another set of vertex. My machinist said he could top pin a set but what would I do for rings? He can modify the rings but I need a set that don't have grooves cut in them so we can groove them after the fact. Wiseco pistons were suggested but I've never had good luck with them in a mercury but supposedly the pins don't come loose.

Ha Ha the Wiseco thing, some like them some not. I have had good luck myself, always done the full heat soak thing at least 6 times when new and had good luck. A buddy told me the newer ones tend to expand less the first few runs and let you run them a bit tighter from day one without the worry of seizure. I don't know but he builds a ton of 2 strokes.
To each his own, Best of Luck Next go around.

Dave

baja200merk
03-31-2014, 08:25 PM
I have used over 100 wisecos last year with no issues.


Quote Dave Bush


Top guided, side pinned, 1 ring, 2 rings are all areas we have tested. Currently we are sticking with Wiseco’s side pin, as it has proven perfect as they claim. We lose ring seal and have more significant leak down when top pinned.

Chaz
04-01-2014, 07:47 AM
You are also correct in stating that the reeds are the restriction, but you also have to consider that it's "Vacuum" and not pressure that's sucking in the air and vacuum is a very powerful force that can over come restrictions to a point more so than pressure.

The people who "Bring good things to light" have gotten rich ( I'm also a stock holder) :D by protecting the wire filament of an incandescent bulb in an area (mostly) void of air molecules.
However, the principle of vacuum does not really apply to the intake stroke of either a 2 or 4 cycle engine beyond idle. If it did , the intake charge would go over 100% volumetric efficiency.
Every normally aspirated configuration we deal with, only uses atmospheric pressure to fill voids until an equilibrium is met. Yes it's true that you can use the "pressure" of a moving column to continue filling a void, but that's only good for a few % at best.
Now there are those who build additional manifold "pressure" above atmosphere thru artificial means , blowers, turbo's etc .. but that is another non vacuum related topic .. ;)

PanRonnie
04-01-2014, 10:46 AM
you can actually have pressure filling without mechanical add ons above atmosferic pressure
with the principle of helmholtz
http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/allaboutrams/ramtheory.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack

the brucato unit can do this
although very curious how adjustable the power curve is with the stacks

Chaz
04-01-2014, 05:29 PM
you can actually have pressure filling without mechanical add ons above atmosferic pressure
with the principle of helmholtz
http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/allaboutrams/ramtheory.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack

the brucato unit can do this
although very curious how adjustable the power curve is with the stacks

Ronnie,
Thank you for accentuating my point.


Yes it's true that you can use the "pressure" of a moving column to continue filling a void, but that's only good for a few % at best.

Try as we may at times .. It's tough to bend the laws of physics .. :thumbsup:

mrcrsr
04-01-2014, 06:10 PM
How about why the locating pins came loose? The intake manifold does no good if the engine spews parts everywhere.i do believe velocity takes over. But, if all intake events were recorded in psia there would definitely be a difference between either side.

Dave Strong
04-01-2014, 06:18 PM
How about why the locating pins came loose? The intake manifold does no good if the engine spews parts everywhere!

Ain't that the truth.

Dave

Capt.Insane-o
04-01-2014, 06:36 PM
Working on a 3 liter for a buddy, due to sizing issues I'm going to use a set of WSM's.

Dave Strong
04-01-2014, 06:48 PM
Working on a 3 liter for a buddy, due to sizing issues I'm going to use a set of WSM's.

Have you used those before in an outboard? Know guys that have used them is other 2 stroke apps and had good luck.

Dave

Capt.Insane-o
04-01-2014, 07:19 PM
No, first time. Used them in tons of jet ski's and snow mobiles with no issues what so ever.

Dave Strong
04-01-2014, 07:29 PM
No, first time. Used them in tons of jet ski's and snow mobiles with no issues what so ever.


Thats the same info I have got same apps. Let us know what you think, prices seem good.

Dave

baja200merk
04-01-2014, 10:23 PM
Bigger bores with bigger ports are harder on pins.

Its not the same wiseco you bought in 1995 and smeared...

Dave Strong
04-01-2014, 10:42 PM
I like Wiseco's never had a problem I didn't create.

Dave

Chaz
04-02-2014, 12:00 AM
How about why the locating pins came loose? The intake manifold does no good if the engine spews parts everywhere.

So if the pins stayed in place for 249 hours , then you change the intake and it detonates one piston to slag and rattles the pins loose in the other five .. it's pretty easy to see what the root of the problem is. Another sure way to tell it was detonation is that the pins will be stuck in their bores.
I spoke about it on the other thread, you even tended to agree. That being that the throttle blade area is grossly exaggerated for the application.
Gary said the math show's the blade area to be more than twice that of the stock system .. If that's the case, then doesn't it stand to reason that at half throttle it is moving as much air volume as the standard system... ? Then wouldn't it also make sense that at that point, it requires the same amount of fuel as it did at WOT .. ? Of course it does .. ;)
Now from that point on, if the MAD deal has the ability to straighten the air in larger doses, and the engine has the ability to make use of that air, then a curve adding fuel will also produce more power.:thumbsup:
But if the motor has no use for the available air from half throttle on, then force feeding additional fuel will only make for a blubbery second half .. :nonod:



i do believe velocity takes over. But, if all intake events were recorded in psia there would definitely be a difference between either side.

Velocity is a given .. The Ramcharger's ( Chrysler engineers) took that deal to extremes in the early 60's .. It's worth a few percent as stated.
Cyl heads are tested at 28" of OMC .. err ... Mercury :rolleyes: .. thats so small changes can be recorded. Any .. cyl head or carb man will tell you the 99% of what's out there , be it 2 pokes or 4 , run at an average 1.5" of depression .. if it were not the case, carbs wouldn't need to operate within the confines of Bernoulli's principle.

Some early weirdness ... :eek: :D


http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608052173892683095&pid=1.9&w=300&h=300&p=0

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.607986452302069945&w=335&h=188&c=7&rs=1&pid=1.7

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608016267959928690&w=335&h=179&c=7&rs=1&pid=1.7

mrcrsr
04-02-2014, 06:21 AM
charly, as far as the mixture, here's one for you. at 3k rpm, fueling requirements went up about 13%.i don't look at things from a throttle opening perspective but more of tps over rpm. my engine is crankcase injected, so i'd like to think that takes out the variable for disrupted airflow as i'm injecting after the reeds. so that only leaves one possibility, that the intake truly is packing more air into the crankcase. what doesn't make sense to me is at steady state 3 k rpm, with all other variables equal(same prop,boat,load,etc) why does it require more fuel to do the same job? as far as the engine coming apart, lets just say a friend who was running the boat for me made a mistake. i was running the laptop in the passenger seat, he was driving the boat. we did one plug reading at 3k rpm, everything fine. my fuel rail and lines hold pressure for a lil while after shutting the fuel pumps down. anyway, boat is in gear, he hits the key and immediately planes, motor falls on its face, as its spinning down i heard it squeak a couple of times. boat settles back in water, he figures out he left the fuel pump off, kicks it back on, fires the engine, planes off and motor seizes. it didn't do alot of damage other then scuffing the piston and bore had scratches in it. no evidence of detonation (no speckling on plugs, etc) so not sure why you are saying detonation as i don't believe that is the culprit.

Chaz
04-03-2014, 06:10 PM
I think it would be easier over Gatoraid next time you stop by .. LOL

But here goes .. :eek:


at 3k rpm, fueling requirements went up about 13%

Given the fact that the blade area is over twice that of a single hole deal , as stated at "every throttle angle of opening" there is a larger entrance window. Before your done, I would imagine 13% will be on the low side ..


i don't look at things from a throttle opening perspective but more of tps over rpm.

Same as above, but within those two perspectives ...
You could be idling along and whack it , the motor would be at 2000 rpm and WOT on the TPS .
Just as you could be cruising at 6000 and push the throttle the last little bit to WOT .
Each situation would require a different curve. So it's a good thing you do that.


my engine is crankcase injected, so i'd like to think that takes out the variable for disrupted airflow as i'm injecting after the reeds

Well it make's for a situation where you know that the fuel you send in , is in fact going where you want it. But with two holes being fed "air" from a common blade, at anything but WOT , then one side is looking at a funnel while the other is looking at a shear plate.

It's date night, and I don't wanna keep the Mrs. waiting ... :nonod:

I'll be back ... ;) :D :thumbsup:

mrcrsr
04-04-2014, 06:41 AM
charly, i understand what you are saying about blade area, we could say in that case, currently at 1/4 throttle the rpm is the same as before at half throttle. that would be a good way to compare the difference. but irreguardless, at 3 k rpm, between both intakes, fueling went up. so i am looking at this from a steady state 3k rpm-why would fueling go up ? it takes a certain amount of air to get the engine to go 3k rpm, and the fuel amount should be the same, so i'm trying to understand this as it doesn't make sense.

Chaz
04-05-2014, 02:53 PM
OK , lets use your numbers .. and a couple more that I'll just round off to the nearest whole number.
Lets say your TPS has a key on range of 1 to 5 volts much like a stock ignition / fuel management system .

If you rode along at half throttle putting out 150 hp . The motor would require 75 lbs hr of fuel and 300 cfm of air to support a .5 BSFC ... and to provide that , the ECM would read 3000 RPM and 3 volts.

Now install an "aggressive early" air valve that provides the same 300 cfm at quarter throttle. Without changing anything else .
Wouldn't the ECM be seeing 1.5 volts, and because of that , provide 37.5 lbs / hr of fuel... ?

My point has been from the start, that the fuel at a quarter throttle need's to match the old half throttle settings. And continue to rise untill something else down the line becomes the governor in the system and then at that point the fuel load needs to be trimmed back to match the engines ability to move air ... My head hurts now .. LOL

vnemous
04-05-2014, 03:39 PM
Check the fuel pump maybe the grommet looks like this295597

Todd D
04-05-2014, 04:00 PM
So basically it sounds like you need to take the values from your old curve at say 3000 rpm and move them down to 2000 rpm on the new furl curve you are writing.

PanRonnie
04-05-2014, 04:44 PM
I don, t think that, s what he means
I think he means that if we assume all things being equal it takes a certain amount of horsepower to push the boat through the water at 3000rpm
It took a certain amount of fuel to do that with the old intake
And now with the new intake fuel consumption went up to get to the same rpm (Hp)
The way i would explain it is that the engine (intake) is less effecient at that rpm with the new intake in turning fuel into energy (thermal effinciency)

Todd D
04-05-2014, 07:05 PM
I was just trying to give him a base line fuel curve since he has the Wolfe electronics he has to build it. He had it setup pretty good with the horn. Basically if he finds a spot In the curve that is 13-15% richer than where he's starting to have problems it will be a base line to modify. He might have to increase each value exponentially because the new throttle blades are xyz times bigger at each percent that the blades rotate open.

mrcrsr
04-06-2014, 07:08 AM
I don, t think that, s what he means
I think he means that if we assume all things being equal it takes a certain amount of horsepower to push the boat through the water at 3000rpm
It took a certain amount of fuel to do that with the old intake
And now with the new intake fuel consumption went up to get to the same rpm (Hp)
The way i would explain it is that the engine (intake) is less effecient at that rpm with the new intake in turning fuel into energy (thermal effinciency) exactly what I'm trying to understand

Todd D
04-06-2014, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't say it is less efficient because all things things aren't the same when you're comparing values at certain rpms or tps values. When you add more air you must add more fuel to keep the thermal temps in the correct range. But what we have now is that at say 3000 rpm the motor is effectively getting the same amount of air as it was at WOT. So you must add more fuel to cool the burn. I understand that the boat isn't running the same at 3000 rpm now as it was at WOT before but that's because things like timing are lower. I think what charlies really trying to get across is that the intake isn't correct for these motors the throttle blades are just too large. Basically that intake makes this motor a 2 speed.... idle and WOT. There is nothing in between and nothing after. The reason I say nothing after is at say 3000 rpm you have introduced all the air the motor can handle because something else is restricting the flow. Like the cages, goose neck in the block at the sleeves, exhaust chest or tuner......

mrcrsr
04-08-2014, 06:01 AM
i hear you todd, but my point is, to get the boat to run 3k rpm, it takes a certain amount of air, irreguardless of throttle position, so the mad may be at 1/8 throttle, the horn at 1/4 throttle(these are hypothetical numbers). so if u are still requiring the same amount of air to do the same job shouldn't it require the same amount of fuel? and like said earlier, i am injecting fuel after the reeds, so that should take disrupted air flow out of the mix(if it was wet reed i could understand it). todd, also, being crankcase injected, should free up almost 10% airflow thru the reedcages(if u consider at wot air/fuel mix is amost 10 parts air,1 part fuel. injecting after the reeds should give more room for airflow thru the cages)

PanRonnie
04-08-2014, 06:49 AM
i think the plenum intake is simply more efficient at lower RPM
maybe because of the plenum design, an intake pulse or simply the longer intake runner
now this is not really a problem as long as the MAD intake outperforms the plenum design at higher RPM
long intake runners build torque short ones build horsepower
provided it is matched to the breathing through the engine ( Hot cam four stroke, higher porting 2 stroke )
so you should see better numbers at the higher rpm,s hopefully

Liberator*21
04-09-2014, 04:53 AM
i hear you todd, but my point is, to get the boat to run 3k rpm, it takes a certain amount of air, irreguardless of throttle position, so the mad may be at 1/8 throttle, the horn at 1/4 throttle(these are hypothetical numbers). so if u are still requiring the same amount of air to do the same job shouldn't it require the same amount of fuel? and like said earlier, i am injecting fuel after the reeds, so that should take disrupted air flow out of the mix(if it was wet reed i could understand it). todd, also, being crankcase injected, should free up almost 10% airflow thru the reedcages(if u consider at wot air/fuel mix is amost 10 parts air,1 part fuel. injecting after the reeds should give more room for airflow thru the cages)

Charlie,

Just came back from 2 week vacation and saw your post. Let me share what I have experienced first hand.................

No expert here, but my hands on experience with the TPS/MAD intake is that running the TPS 1:1 against the throttle opening in the MAD doesn't work period, creates a lean condition (more air/less fuel) due to throttle blade opening volume, EGT's confirm that. I altered the advance ratio on the TPS through 1/2 throttle (meaning that at 1/2 throttle TPS was sending "FULL" throttle output signal to the PCM) and the results were spectacular, motor ran and pulled very hard, but now I'm working on making the top end run the same by adding extra fuel via 6 more fuel injectors. I'm still in the build stage on my project, but everything I've done and tried dictated the need for additional fuel. Hope to be on the water by the end of the month and I'll let you know how it goes. Good luck on your end.

mrcrsr
04-09-2014, 06:23 AM
good to see you back gary! i think for now i am going to put the horn back on it, river ranch is 3 weeks away, and i haven't had the time to reassemble the engine yet, so it will be a time crunch to get the boat back together and running by then, and maybe put a couple of hours on it

Liberator*21
04-09-2014, 06:26 AM
Have a great time at R/Ranch. I'll let you know what and when on my results once I get out (probably end of the month).

mrcrsr
06-23-2014, 07:45 AM
skater has been running great, got 40 hours since the rebuild. i am going to go back to the mad efi intake and retune for it soon. i've been working on some other engines, between the camaro and customers engines. i am going to start a thread with a 250 3 litre i just put together. take a look, this is a more production based engine with some mods.

PanRonnie
06-23-2014, 01:57 PM
already tried running closed loop?
it,s good fun
:cheers:


<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xcv5esY1C14?list=UUhoyU9hvx6mN4DHeMuBGWVg" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="720" width="1280"></iframe>

mrcrsr
06-23-2014, 03:33 PM
I'm afraid to give the computer complete control, lol

PanRonnie
06-23-2014, 03:37 PM
You can probably set the range (rpm band) in wich to run closed loop say 2000 to 4000 rpm everything above that i would do by hand to
And midrange is most time consuming anyway

Liberator*21
06-23-2014, 03:40 PM
I'm afraid to give the computer complete control, lol

LMAO.....couldn't agree more, i.e. Rise of The Machines (Terminator) is what happens when you relinquish total control...:D:thumbsup:

Dave Strong
06-23-2014, 03:47 PM
LMAO.....couldn't agree more, i.e. Rise of The Machines (Terminator) is what happens when you relinquish total control...:D:thumbsup:

Ya they decide to put windows in blocks.lol

Dave

MODVP22
06-23-2014, 07:01 PM
Camaro?

Liberator*21
06-23-2014, 07:13 PM
Camaro?

Oh yeah, 10.5 @ 128, it's a bad azz street car.

mrcrsr
06-24-2014, 05:05 PM
the camaro is stone age, and is blow thru carbureted, the only computer it has is a microsquirt running the 4l80e transmission. the boat has the capability to run a wideband, already installed the bung for it. here's a pic of the camaro engine bay, i think one of my future projects is to put a turbo on the skater engine.....http://i56.tinypic.com/11ih7gx.jpg

madgadget
06-24-2014, 06:14 PM
Personally dont like closed loop auto mapping... Good idea in principle, but doesn't work so great in practice unless under controlled driving conditions...

Interesting reading this thread however. As regards to extra fuel, any chance of getting an exhaust gas analyser (may not be practical at all) and seeing what kind of unburnt hydrocarbons you have before and after to see how efficient combustion is?

Dave Strong
06-24-2014, 07:26 PM
Closed loop works fine when you have things totally dialed in. But that takes a lot of work.

Dave

PanRonnie
06-25-2014, 01:17 AM
Closed loop works fine when you have things totally dialed in. But that takes a lot of work.

Dave

took me about 2 minutes the change the necessary settings ( AFR map range, minimum engine temp closed loop to high) that,s all
a shame i had issues with my dyno supply pump so i could not get it
to the full throttle high rpm ranges

plz tell what system where you running on what engine
and what settings did you have to change?

madgadget
06-25-2014, 04:10 AM
Closed loop works fine when you have things totally dialed in. But that takes a lot of work.

Dave

I will use closed loop for example part throttle close look fuelling for efficiency, but never use it to create a fuel map.

Gotta say though, that video above is interesting :) Going to fit MS2 on my V6 at some point :)

PanRonnie
06-25-2014, 05:46 AM
I will use closed loop for example part throttle close look fuelling for efficiency, but never use it to create a fuel map.

Gotta say though, that video above is interesting :) Going to fit MS2 on my V6 at some point :)
go for the MS3 and use capacitive discharge ignition :D
and the other extra features
well worth the extra money

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/46q35k1UNMM" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="720" width="960"></iframe>

mrcrsr
06-25-2014, 06:48 AM
i figured i would just use the wideband for a tuning reference, i don't really trust the computer enough to let it auto tune. i'll hook up the wideband with the engine in its current configuration to get an idea of where its at . i've got a couple more engines to rebuild for customers and then i'll revisit the mad efi intake.

mrcrsr
06-28-2014, 08:25 AM
ronnie(or anyone else) the 2.5 litre cd ignition with switchboxes, i know it is possible to electronically retard timing by the use of the bias wire between the 2 switchboxes, how would you use a computer(like the wolf) to do it. gonna do another wolf project down the road.

PanRonnie
06-28-2014, 12:22 PM
hi charly i don,t use the original switch boxes
i started out with that idea but dropped it because i could not get it to work with the 5 volt output of the MS3X card
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=52253
i build my own with the help of thierry of the http://www.transmic.net/ site
the key is that the ecu should be able to do a coil dwell signal in % of the crankshaft rotation ( i use 90% )
meaning the thyristor gate is kept low during 90% of the crank rotation in this time it,s charging the capacitor through the stator ignition coils
when the signal goes high the thyristor discharges the capacitor and the charge is released to the ignition coil

i have been looking in the wolf software but i don,t think you can do that with the wolf ecu (but you can ask them)
you will have to go with and after-market unit of
http://www.mwignitions.com/pg_data_sheets.php
or maybe vipec
aem seems to have stopped making one ( can,t find it anymore )
i am working on a DC version that should work as a drop in replacement based on the sport-devices design
http://www.sportdevices.com/ignition/inverter.htm
if it works you could use it with the normal coil dwell signal
but this is proving challenging to say the least

mrcrsr
06-28-2014, 01:55 PM
Ronnie I'd like to leave the 2.5 ignition complete, but use the trigger to give the wolf position information but I can't think how I would do it. Then let the wolf have the capability to retard the stock ignition timing and lock the pickup at full advance

PanRonnie
06-28-2014, 02:52 PM
don,t know why on earth you would want to do that as i find the original trigger a horrible system but anyways:nonod:
having the bias voltage shorted to ground advances ignition
so you would fix the timer base to 0 dgr BTDC or lower ATDC
then have a transistor between the bias voltage and ground
the gate of the transistor connected to a PWM output of the ecu
now hopefully this works
at a 0% the gate is not activated and the bias voltage is not pulled low
and as you increase the percentage of the PWM simulates a resistor in-line where the ohm value becomes lower
you could maybe trim the advance with resistors in line with the transistor so that at 100% duty cycle you have a fixed advance
this would also be a build in safety if something goes wrong with the ecu
the engine could never over advance over the resistor value
you would still need a missing tooth wheel setup for timing but that,s easy enough

i would seriously advice building a test setup where everything is installed except the engine itself :thumbsup:

PanRonnie
06-29-2014, 04:25 AM
you could at-least test the theory pretty quick
if you have such an engine around
disconnect the timerbase fixate it
and then put a 10 KOhm variable resistor between the bias connection and ground
and see what happens with a timing light as you turn the resistor from 10 Kohm to 0 Ohm

powerabout
11-04-2014, 07:16 PM
Anyone got any data for calculating the plenum on a multi cylinder 2 stroke?

PanRonnie
11-05-2014, 01:33 AM
Anyone got any data for calculating the plenum on a multi cylinder 2 stroke?

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/jenvey/why-not-just-use-a-big-single-throttle-body

powerabout
11-05-2014, 11:51 AM
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/jenvey/why-not-just-use-a-big-single-throttle-body
Pan I couldn't see anything there, only pro and con of single inlet?

PanRonnie
11-05-2014, 12:54 PM
Depends on the amount of horsepower at what rpm
but instead of reinventing the wheel why not buy the throttle body of a mercury engine of the same horsepower and rpm you are targeting!

powerabout
11-05-2014, 01:04 PM
Depends on the amount of horsepower at what rpm
but instead of reinventing the wheel why not buy the throttle body of a mercury engine of the same horsepower and rpm you are targeting!
single throttle body cfm is not the issue its how big should the box be, there are rule of thumb stuff for 4 strokes and I think the Merc front horn is not such a clever design
maybe a down draught ( like a later Merc) will suit the 90 degree looper down angle reeds with the longer path to the bottom two which makes up for the shorter exhaust?

mrcrsr
03-27-2015, 08:06 PM
I just machined a 3/4" spacer plate out of an optimax reed plate to fit between the intake and reed plate. Figured I'd try to expand the size of the plenum volume and see what it does.

Dave Strong
03-27-2015, 08:17 PM
Be sure to let us know. ;)

Dave :)

mrcrsr
03-28-2015, 07:38 AM
hoping to get it back together today, it is a lil chilly here(hi of 70) so i probably won't get out in the boat until it warms up, i have to run the other skater too with the hi slip numbers with the 1.62 gearcase and see what it does as well. i figure its about time to finish tuning the engine, i'll probably try to run the wideband 02 sensor on it this time as well.

R.grover
03-28-2015, 02:13 PM
sounds good keep up the info

mrcrsr
03-29-2015, 07:48 AM
i had pulled the whole intake with the reed plate, went to clean everything last nite to put back together, and found a couple of reed cages with open reeds on them(like .050-.080 open) which is weird, this engine was redone a year ago and didn't go together like this. i have 300x rubber coated cages in it. last time, i had a couple that were like that and lap sanded the rubber off the problem ones, and those are fine, it was a couple this time with the rubber still in place. ended up lapping them and putting it back together and it is fine. hopefully i'll get the engine back together today.

Liberator*21
03-29-2015, 08:10 AM
Quote:
hoping to get it back together today, it is a lil chilly here(hi of 70).....Seriously Charlie.........?????? It's freak'n 17 degrees here, and I'm not feel'n one bit sorry for ya cause it's gonna be 70.......:reddevil::p:)

Had the same issue with my motor last year using lapped cages, 8 pedals total were open like yours (.05-.08), I couldn't find a reason for it either, they were OEM C/Fiber Reeds. I put in new set of CCM reeds but it'll be awhile before it gets wet.

mrcrsr
03-29-2015, 11:52 AM
17 is cold gary! I was going to try and run the other skater today, but Obama is here, staying at a riverside golf course where I normally run the boats, last time he was here the coast guard and everyone else was over there, I can even heare the fighter jets from my house, I can imagine running 100 through there could create some problems!

Liberator*21
03-29-2015, 02:54 PM
Yeah, that kinda put a damper on things..........

Dave Strong
03-29-2015, 03:12 PM
Yeah, that kinda put a damper on things..........

Long time no hear from Gary, hows things? Ice off the lake here last Sat, just waiting for some run off to fill her up. :D

Dave :)

Liberator*21
03-30-2015, 05:05 AM
Long time no hear from Gary, hows things? Ice off the lake here last Sat, just waiting for some run off to fill her up. :D

Dave :)

Morning Dave,
Been "REAL" busy over the winter months. Got the boat completely torn apart getting ready for a complete rewire job and new Coosa Board transom here within the next few weeks.

Been putting allot of time in my new foot pedal design and testing,now into the manufacturing mode, it hasn't been a smooth ride to say the least. Some of the work I've wanted to out source, but no body wants to talk to me about the work because I don't have 1000's of parts, I'm just a little guy and like Rodney Dangerfield said...........I DON"T GET NO RESPECT..............:D

Hope'n you guy's up north get an early spring to make up for the nasty winter we've had.....take care ...:cheers:

mrcrsr
04-10-2015, 06:42 AM
hopefully it is starting to warm up by you guys in the frigid north! i'm hoping to get my boat out on sunday and do some last minute tuning before river ranch. i just figured out why my port tank wouldn't feed the slosh tank any fuel, the inside of the fuel hose collapsed! i put all new hose in this boat 4 years ago, now i'm replacing all of it again w/ the a1 style black inboard fuel line, which carries a 125 psi rating.

Da Bull
04-12-2015, 08:42 AM
ETHANOL!!! I hate that crap. I`ve replaced many hoses that were collapsed on the inside just like yours. Luckily we have a station that still orders non-ethanol premium and thats where i get gas for my boat, lawn mower, edger ext.

DB

Dave Strong
04-12-2015, 10:12 AM
ETHANOL!!! I hate that crap. I`ve replaced many hoses that were collapsed on the inside just like yours. Luckily we have a station that still orders non-ethanol premium and thats where i get gas for my boat, lawn mower, edger ext.

DB

:iagree::iagree: see lots of bad hoses and have to try and rebuild way more carbs than before. Some just can't be done, usually the ones with the non removable seats for the needles.

mrcrsr
04-13-2015, 06:29 AM
got it back out on the water yesterday. i pretty much went thru everything while i had the intake apart, last time out i noticed the egt guages on both sides were intermittently going zero and up while running. pulled the skirt and found a tear in the rubber exhaust relief hose, replaced it. well now the egt probes are probably bad, which sux. on the 3 litre i have to pull the powerhead to change the probes. i found yesterday that the engine gained some midrange torque(accelerates thru the hop even faster), but on top wasn't getting the rpm. started doing piston/plug readings and found the engine was going rich. i wound up taking 8% fuel out of it above 6k rpm, and got most of the rpm back, and it still appears rich, it sux not having the egt working now, it worked at the beginning of the run though, and was showing 1050 at wot. i also had to change the cylinder corrections once i started leaning it out, 5 and 6 wanted more fuel, so i guess the intake is flowing more air to the lower cylinders with the increase in plenum volume. it was blowing 20 -30 here yesterday rite up the river, so top speed runs were out of the question, i just left the jackplate down to load the engine to figure out what to do with the tuning, was still seeing 100 mph at times even though i wasn't trying.

opsdave
04-13-2015, 12:00 PM
Charlie,
Are you back to running the horn intake again?

mrcrsr
04-14-2015, 06:27 AM
Charlie,
Are you back to running the horn intake again?
yes, i got the mad efi intake to idle well and run good, but the fuel consumption went thru the roof, even the mid range. i think because it is so large there is just no velocity thru it, and efficiency is lost. top end would probably be great with it, but with the fuel burn rate being as high as it is would kill my range

powerabout
04-14-2015, 08:29 AM
Mrcrsr
How many different front horn designs are there?
Your first photo you say its a 260 but I've not seen that style on a 260 the ones I have seen seem to have more volume?

mrcrsr
04-24-2015, 06:29 AM
Mrcrsr
How many different front horn designs are there?
Your first photo you say its a 260 but I've not seen that style on a 260 the ones I have seen seem to have more volume?
you have to remember i cut that one down, cut up an opti plenum, and welded the 2 together to get the correct bolt pattern. this intake was weird though, the butterfly is alot bigger in it then a regular 260(i'd have to get some measurements to id it)

mrcrsr
12-12-2015, 07:38 AM
Anyone make rifle drilled head bolts or studs for the 3 litre? I'd like to start doing cylinder to cylinder egt readings

PanRonnie
12-13-2015, 05:01 AM
why not build them yourself?
http://www.alliedelec.com/rs-pro-3817277/70643725/

http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/Small/70643725.jpg
http://www.alliedelec.com/rs-pro-3971264/70643845/
http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/Small/70643845.jpg
just have to build the adapter from BSP straight to your headstud thread!
and drill the hole offcourse but you might wanna get that done by a machinist
this is how i am going to do it :)

btw the CAN EGT from diyautotune has 8 channels egt channels and 8 analog 0-5 volt outputs (god that,s complicated :( )
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/canegt-channel-thermocouple-interface-p-542.html

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/images/canegt-c_med.jpg

mrcrsr
12-13-2015, 08:04 AM
I currently use 1/8 npt to 1/8 compression fittings, I would have to get some head studs rifle drilled then and adapt to the compression fittings. I guess there is nothing available off the shelf

PanRonnie
12-13-2015, 08:16 AM
http://www.extremeperformanceoutboards.com/forum/outboard-power-tech-discussion/7780-drilled-studs-for-omc-looper

mrcrsr
12-13-2015, 06:02 PM
Mine are metric, looks like I'll have to make a set

baja200merk
12-14-2015, 10:09 AM
He has 3.0 metric in stock.

mrcrsr
12-15-2015, 07:38 AM
Thanks kevin

mrcrsr
03-24-2017, 07:28 AM
Just had the engine come apart on the Suwanee run, #5 injector went lean, still managed to drive 20 miles home under its own power, motor had 340 hours on it. Anyway, figured I'd post this up for those considering lightening there pistons, here's an easy way to check piston thickness. 370428370428

mrcrsr
03-24-2017, 07:29 AM
370429

MaDneSS
03-24-2017, 07:47 AM
Any idea what caused it to run lean?

mrcrsr
03-24-2017, 08:28 AM
Me, lol, lack of maintenance. I should've been pulling​the injectors yearly for service

MaDneSS
03-24-2017, 08:29 AM
I see, Reason I asked was that I've melted number 5 a couple of times never really figured out for sure why.

opsdave
03-24-2017, 11:26 AM
At least it happened early in the season. You'll be back and running in no time! Any mods while it's down this time?


Me, lol, lack of maintenance. I should've been pulling​the injectors yearly for service

mrcrsr
03-24-2017, 03:21 PM
A lil more port work, the usual! Trying to crack 115 next

mrcrsr
04-06-2017, 10:06 AM
Coming along, still some more to remove and then onto lightening wrist pins. 371927371928

mrcrsr
04-07-2017, 06:11 PM
Wrist pins are done, did a nice angle cut inside.372038372038372039

opsdave
04-13-2017, 09:06 AM
Looking good!

mrcrsr
04-17-2017, 10:49 AM
Hoping to get it back on the boat tonight, been swamped with work

mrcrsr
04-18-2017, 10:02 AM
All done and running, going for a ride this afternoon372901

Anthony Cruz
05-08-2017, 10:38 AM
plz tell me you're taking this to key largo this weekend..... I would love to see this beast!

JPEROG
05-08-2017, 10:51 AM
plz tell me you're taking this to key largo this weekend..... I would love to see this beast!

He runs it everywhere like its a stock 115 LOL... Never, ever have I seen someone run (total mod) motors like Charlie does.

Joe

Anthony Cruz
05-08-2017, 10:57 AM
Lmao holy crap that's awesome! I can respect that! No better excuse for building a stronger motor then hurting the previous one lol

mrcrsr
06-03-2017, 08:28 AM
I'm now just finishing putting a transom in it, the fun never ends!

Velocity21.250
07-01-2017, 01:31 AM
I'm now just finishing putting a transom in it, the fun never ends!
Hi how are you my friend

I liked the idea ����������������

PanRonnie
07-01-2017, 04:16 AM
why not do a bit of sacrilege and have an OMC throttle body on your mercury :eek::rolleyes:
would be fun to add an idle solenoid

powerabout
07-01-2017, 09:20 AM
why not do a bit of sacrilege and have an OMC throttle body on your mercury :eek::rolleyes:
would be fun to add an idle solenoid
I think those 3 holes have more areas than any Merc horn, less skin friction but a more direct flow for each pair I wonder if it works better?

Velocity21.250
07-01-2017, 11:09 AM
I think those 3 holes have more areas than any Merc horn, less skin friction but a more direct flow for each pair I wonder if it works better?


Hello gays

how are you

Velocity21.250
07-01-2017, 11:11 AM
379134

mrcrsr
07-08-2017, 01:08 PM
No need for an iac, I can do it all with timing

powerabout
07-08-2017, 09:57 PM
No need for an iac, I can do it all with timing
does your pack have idle stabiliser in it?

Velocity21.250
07-13-2017, 04:00 PM
How was the Engine Modified? Can you put a video for the boat

vnemous
07-13-2017, 06:46 PM
Hello gays

how are you
I hope you meant "guys" :D

Dave Strong
07-13-2017, 06:56 PM
Hahaha, good thing Bud doesn't own a big block. Lol;)

Dave:)

Velocity21.250
07-13-2017, 09:29 PM
I hope you meant "guys" :D


Haha, yes I mean men excuse if I make a mistake

mrcrsr
07-16-2017, 03:09 PM
does your pack have idle stabiliser in it?

No, I control ignition and timing with the wolf, so if the idle falls below 600 I add timing, if it goes above 750 I take timing away. When I first set it up I had too much of a difference between hi and lo timing and the idle rpm surged up and down like a blower motor

Velocity21.250
07-16-2017, 10:13 PM
No, I control ignition and timing with the wolf, so if the idle falls below 600 I add timing, if it goes above 750 I take timing away. When I first set it up I had too much of a difference between hi and lo timing and the idle rpm surged up and down like a blower motor
How was the performance during the tests

Velocity21.250
07-24-2017, 02:43 PM
Do you tell me what kind of map sensor was best with the number for your engine

mrcrsr
08-15-2017, 05:17 PM
I used the internal map sensor with blending

Velocity21.250
08-16-2017, 03:04 PM
The engine works amazingly but I have a problem with the set up prop of the boat so that the rpm and turk are strong and you need to modify the prop