PDA

View Full Version : Everybody stop, check your Baker Marine Bolts!



Barney
04-24-2001, 12:57 AM
Now this comes as some unpleasent news.

For some time I have held the Baker Marine establishment as the premier Hot-boat authority.

Stop the presses!

This last weekend, I had the pleasure of meeting some fine folks from this board. We meet here in Vegas, then ventured to Lake Havasu as a group. One member of our team Dr. Wicky, had an Allison that was purchased from Baker Marine via another member of this board. As I asked questions about the boat as I crawled though it inspecting every hatch, seem, panel. Baker Marine rigged, gigged and ready to go, well sorta....

Down at Lake Havasu, the wind blew, got rough in some sections.

Well to get to the point, the bolts holding the setback, jackplate, motor were all grade 3, course thread bolts.
Not only were the bolts VERY POOR quality, there positions borders reckless. On his Jackplate there are 5 bolt holes, bottom hole had a bolt, middle hole had a bolt. There was no bolt in the top holes, nor was there any scaring from bolts removed.

The damn bolts broke, quick reflexes by Rickracer, Dr. Wicky's correct reflexes shut it down as they violently got slammed to one side. The poor location as well as the cheap ass bolts could have seriously injured Dr. Wicky or his wife and kids. I am tottally appalled at the lack of concern for safety and well being of someone with a family.
Other damage to Dr. Wickys lower unit as well, now his wife feels threatened by propect of trust in a boat that could have seriously injured some people.

Does anyone else have grade 3 bolts rigged by the fabulous Baker Boys?

Dr. Wicky should sue your asses!

My last personal conversaton with Sam, I quote, "we can only warrenty motors we sell and rig here. And besides don't you want the BEST RIGGED BOAT ON THE LAKE". Yeah Sammy, but most of us like our boats on top of the lake.

It makes me sick to see that ****, and yes it is well documented on film and through personal testimonial.

I hope for the Bakers sake, they made real good use of the $2.50 they saved with cheap bolts, poor workmanship. Lets hope for liability sake they did not make a habit of this dangerous practice.

He has a wife and 2 small kids.

I have spoken with my attorney, I would be so far up your Baker ass, you would see purple.

You ruined his lower unit, cost us hours of work, and better be puckering up to make some **** right!

Or we can work this out right on your these public forums for all to see.


Of course,

KaptainKirk
04-24-2001, 08:27 AM
I am sorry to see that happen to anyone,and to hear of it comin out of Baker Marine Support!I through personal experience have had nothing but excellent workmanship and top notch parts.And yes my motor has been off the transom with all bolts being just fine (they were replaced with new ones).
Sucks to hear that!!
Hope ya make out okay Wicky!!

My additional 2 cents....
K.K.

Michael Martin
04-24-2001, 08:49 AM
Safty should NEVER be compromised for apperance.
This is the first bad I have ever heard about the Baker Boys. We all make mistakes and yes some are worse than others. Thank God no one was hurt.


Mike Martin

Barney
04-24-2001, 09:36 AM
By no means am I saying Baker Marine let that happen intentionally.

It really scared the **** out of allot of people.

I may have over-reacted with my post pointing at Baker Marine, their family name has legendary, hero status to me personally, I do believe they have a great deal of integrity and maintain a very high quality standard.

I still do not understand how they could have missed it.
They did rig this boat.

Please everybody, check your bolts.

Use only the very best quality.

I would still like to hear from the Bakers, I do appoligize for accusations, that was not fair.

jimmyb
04-24-2001, 11:43 AM
why dont you try posting on baker's site???

btw, i would definately not classify this in the "how to win friends and influence people category"

I would definately try to get all the facts straight before you make accusations... there is an "edit" key on this board where you can change things and remove posts, if you feel so moved

ChrisH
04-24-2001, 11:53 AM
Best rigging on the planet? RIGHT...

Ray Neudecker
04-24-2001, 12:29 PM
Barney, i am glad there was no serious injuries,however it would appear that this boat was purchased used from someone who had bought it from Bakers.Did it ever occur to you they may have changed the bolts and or jackplate as happens many times when people are setting up Allisons.This is a warning that you should always check carefully before subjecting a rig to extreme use as described in one of your other posts. It is just another one of those things to check whenever you buy a used boat.I have also discovered some of these type problems when testing or racing some one else's equiptment which had not been pushed as hard by the owner.This is never the happiest way to discover a problem.

Barney
04-24-2001, 03:15 PM
He states all the rigging is original Baker work.

I thought about editing my first post, I think I would rather just add some after thoughts.

Over the past year, I have spoken with the Bakers on many occasions, this does not fit anything I know of them. I think of them as family. I do know they are very caring and would never intentionally put anyones safty at risk.

I offer no explanation, not even sure that the Bakers need to address this issue. There is no way to ever really no how those bolts were used. If anything, we can let this be another wake up call for all of us to make certain we check our bolts and safty issues often.

I hope this does not negatively effect the boating habits of those families that were present.

Bakers have an added responsibility to ensure safty issues on any boat run through their facility.

Techno
04-24-2001, 03:40 PM
I noticed that I have one bolt coming loose on my OB near the steering. So check your stuff no matter who rigged it there's alot of vibration and stress on these catapaulted flyers.

One thought on the bolts thing. I wonder if someone decided to move the OB on the plate they might use any bolt to hold it in position until they got the right ones in the right spot, then forgot to change them.

Barney
04-24-2001, 04:07 PM
Motor to the plate. Through the sides of the plate to hold it together.

The bottom bolts held, bolts through the middle of the plate snapped, both halves of both bolts remained stuck to the sides of the plate, Dr. has them. The jackplate opened up, bottom bolts acting like a hinge, supported by steering cables. (there's 1 positve about cable steering, had he had hydrolic, bye bye motor) When it broke, it effectivly laid the motor on it's back, so very lucky they were not at speed, or spinning prop did not make contact with bottom of boat.

It is something that WILL stay with all of us I'm sure, has me rethinking that my safty gear should be worn every time not just when it's convienent.

Because the broken bolts remained stuck on the jackplate, we know there placement and grade 3.

daytona
04-24-2001, 04:48 PM
hi guys, Newcomer to posting here. I have read S\F 2yrs. Now. it's my turn to try to give back. 21 Eliminator daytona tunnel with 97 2.5 offshore svs A48 chip. My SVS works! Why else would merc buy Them? My Question is: why not punch the key to prime a couple of times while coming down from wot thru 6k or so. I have had and seen so many v6's lean-stick a piston coming down. Maybe priming doesn't do enough to be effective or somthing. I have very much enjoyed the tips I have seen here. Thank you Guys! rick martin

savage
04-24-2001, 05:14 PM
Are you sure about the grade of the bolts ? Grade three bolts have two slashes. Grade 5 have three slashes. If it was my boat,I would have grade 8 bolts (6 slashes).Just my two cents.

Rickracer
04-24-2001, 07:53 PM
I didn't look that closely at the grade of the bolts, but I'm fairly certain that in these particular circumstance, if they were properly positioned, they would not have broken. They were literally sheared off by the leverage caused by their placement. There were 6 available bolt holes down each side of the setback bracket, but there were only bolts in the bottom holes and the center holes, effectively giving the setback bracket double the leverage to be able to shear them off. Not a good plan, especially with less than the best bolts.

Just MY opinion, but I could be wrong too, :-)

Cp
04-24-2001, 09:52 PM
....trying to gain motor height by raising the back half of the Allison JackPlate, thus leaving the top holes on the rear half of the plate without matching holes on the front half? Am I reading this right here, Rick? If this is the case, I'd have a hard time believing anyone at Baker would even consider this. That goes for any other Allison dealer, too for that matter. Darris would have a fit (and maybe is). I'd like to see a picture of this setup, Wicky. Seriously relieved that no one was hurt. Nice driving. Cp

Rickracer
04-25-2001, 08:32 AM
In this case both halves of the setback were aligned. There was no reason whatever not to have bolts in the top holes. In fact , it might have been overkill, but there could have been a total of 12 bolts holding the setback plate together. Also , there was no need to jack up the setback, as Wicky has an Allison hydraulic jackplate on that rig as well. I do have some pics of the engine hanging off the boat by two bolts and the steering cables, and the sheared off bolts & nuts still in the bracket. I haven't had time to download my camera yet, but if anybody wishes to see the pics, email me directly, and I'll send them out.

Balzy
04-25-2001, 09:25 AM
E me the pics when you get a chance.....

Sam Baker
04-25-2001, 11:02 AM
It would be nice to know what boat this is. I can't comment as you're not the person that bought the boat from us. I assure you - and everybody - that we do not cut corners. Anybody that compares our rigging will know that it is equal to or better than anybody on the planet.

If this has been an issue, it has never been brought up to me. I would appreciate it if there is a problem that they would come to me first to give me the opportunity to understand and possibly explain the situation. As it stands, if there are any attorneys to be involved, I would have a better chance of suing you for Libel than for you to sue me for a job that was done a long time ago that broke when you were running a high performance boat across rough water.

Did you check the bolts? It's very important - and we stress this to everybody we get a chance to - that you give your transom and everything attached to it a good look over. Skegs, transoms, engine bolts, etc. are under tremendous forces by these boats and motors. I give them all a look over nearly every time I go out.

I'm not trying to be difficult - believe me - but so far in this entire thread, there is nothing that describes exactly what boat and who you bought it from. We've had a lot of people use our name and say we did "all the work" on the boat when in fact all we ever did was give it a tune up.

Please post the boat model, brand, year, motor, and who you bought it from so I can give a logical response.

Sam Baker

Rickracer
04-25-2001, 12:59 PM
Sam, I was/am not pointing any fingers. Lots of things could have happened to the rigging on this boat after it left
your shop. The point I hope everyone takes from all of this discussion is that you should never take anything for
granted. Nobody is perfect, and parts do fail. Wicky mentioned that the placement of those bolts didn't look right to
him, but who was he to second guess BMS? If the boat had been mine, it would have never seen the water till I had
put bolts in the top holes of that setback bracket. I do think I would rather deal with a little rust on some grade 8s
than have the rustproof but soft stainless bolts shear off. Again, I hope everybody will take this as a reminder how
important it is to check your rigging on a regular basis, and when in doubt, overkill is safer than "good enough".
_____________

Fl Boy in ILL
04-25-2001, 05:50 PM
OK Guys
I was the original owner of WICKYS boat, Sam for you info it was the 1997 Teal and Platnum Grand Sport Elite with a ProMax 225 that I bought from your dad. Now that we know which specfic boat we are talking about let me give you the history while I owned the boat.

1. Bought the boat new from Bakers 5/97 with the 225 and CMC jackplate rigged at Bakers.

2. Recall from Allison on transon bolts? Boat was returned to Bakers for the recall, motor was removed and a plate was installed on the transom. Best recolection this was done in 12/99.

3. Boat sold in 5/2000 to Todd aka Wicky.

While I owned the boat I never made any changes or modifications to the way it came from Bakers.

If anybody has any questions to this info please feel free to email or call me
conklin@theramp.net

I hope this answers any question as to what was done to the boat prior to Wicky buying it.

Rick Conklin
815-433-6192

[Edited by Fl Boy in ILL on 04-25-2001 at 05:58 PM]

WillyT
04-25-2001, 07:07 PM
My setback has double-bolting at the top (that is, two bolts on EACH side near the top), my jackplate is also double-bolted to the setback and my engine is double-bolted to the jack (plus my transom plate is tied into the front of the splashwell by two 1/2" stainless steel rods and an aluminum plate to spread the load even more). Would not feel comfortable without this redundancy since any bolt, regardless of stated strength, can have a manufacturing flaw that makes it much weaker than its markings would suggest. By the way, the Bass and Walleye magazine article about bolting that was mentioned in another post on this board stated that stainless steel bolts (typically, anyway), equate to about a grade 5, not grade 3, but I'm sure you can get just about anything if you are not real careful. That article also said that Allison is now using bolts with a DIAMETER larger than 1/2" (with a rather significant increase in strength-per-bolt). Bolts installed only in the middle and at the bottom, regardless of strength, just sounds like a mistake, plain and simple. We all make them; sometimes we get lucky and no one gets hurt (including ourselves).

Barney
04-25-2001, 07:22 PM
Would have had us all check our bolts, then it would have been over.