How will an alpha lower unit hold up to being surfaced on an outboard?

[baja200merk]

Heres the plan.... I want to put an alpha lower unit (stub shaft) under my 225 E-tec. Why? It seems to be the cheapest/easiest way to get a 1.62 gear. I have a factory mercury 13 spline drive shaft extension which will get cut down to 15 and re-splined to OMC. The Alpha will get a bobs cone. I figured since the cases put up with 350 chevy torque and use the same gears as 3.0 mercury cases (300x, 300xs etc.) it wouldnt have a problem holding up to a lil ole 225 e-tec :confused: The main issue/question is will is survive being surfaced for long periods of time with a 34p ET :confused:

thanks for the info!
Kevin

[Riverratt]

Maybe it is the upper that is the week link on an alpha and if that is the case you would be good to go since you aren't using the upper

[Capt.Insane-o]

Get the torque master bearing carrier for it or it will not last long at all. It really should have the prop shaft updated to teh fat shaft as well. They are reasonable surprisingly. The only bad thing about the alpha cases is if the pinion gear explodes you can go right ahead and toss the housing. They are pretty weak in that area.

[baja200merk]

Thanks for the info but I have seen plenty of broken fat shafts. All of them break where the small shaft is the same diameter as the fat shaft. Including the broken shaft at Suwanee 2 weeks ago. I have never had an issue with my small shaft stuff so I will not be going for the fat shaft but i will do the torquemaster carrier.

Thanks Capt.
Kevin

[TEXAS20225]

Kevin the torqmaster carrier is the same as sporty or CLE 11/4" dia except for the length!! what are you calling a small shaft the first generation HP stuff with the 1 1/4 diameter bearing surface

[TEXAS20225]

if its the same as 3.0 stuff its only 1 3/16 diameter stuff which the 3.0 carrier is a lot better then the 2.5 fishing mota stuff , its much heavier duty and will work with what its built for i use 3.0 carriers on 2.5 case's they will hold up a lot longer when surfaced i been running a fishin mota case on my bullet for 5 years surfaced every-time i go out 3.0 carrier an stock guts out of a fishing motor no lost seals or puked guts

[Capt.Insane-o]

The Alpha I/O cases have the small needle roller bearing in the carrier as opposed to the TQmasters bearing like is used in the CLE Sporty etc.

[JWTjr.]

Thanks for the info but I have seen plenty of broken fat shafts. All of them break where the small shaft is the same diameter as the fat shaft. Including the broken shaft at Suwanee 2 weeks ago. I have never had an issue with my small shaft stuff so I will not be going for the fat shaft but i will do the torquemaster carrier.

Thanks Capt.
Kevin

This exactly. Most of the issues with the small shaft breaking that I have seen have come from improperly torquing the prop nut, and/or using the wrong forward thrust washer. I don't see the need to go to the big shaft. Also, using the HD carrier is a must especially for extended surfacing with a high pitched propeller. It should go without saying but I'll mention it anyway--no shifting into gear, only out of gear into neutral.

John

[TEXAS20225]

thats what im saying the torqmaster carrier wont work on small needle propshafts its the same as all 1 1/4 shafts that use only this carrier and a big holed reverse gear that will slide over the bigger dia shaft

[Capt.Insane-o]

The fatshaft is reasonable ~160-180 dollars compared to the ridiculous price of the smaller shafts.. just sayin'. Replace the shaft and carrier, get a hub kit, it all comes out about the same in the wash. The stock alpha propshaft and carrier is going to fail in a short period of time in a surfacing high hp/rpm application. The stock alpha reverse gear can be chucked in a lathe and opened up in about 2 minutes. Thats the only difference between the I/O and Outboard 1.62 gear sets.

[Tom Foley]

Sell the Alpha for good money and get a CLE or Sportmaster .

[mrcrsr]

get a sporty! no bondo or bs that goes w/ it, incidentally, i run modified alpha gears in my sportmaster, and incidentally, there is more involved then opening up the inner bore of reverse gear

[baja200merk]

The alpha is a customer's not mine. If getting a sporty was so easy I'd own one already. 3k for a 3.0 or 1500 for a 2.5 that has to be torn down, 500 bucks on gears, plus building it, plus shaft cut so im into it for at least 2500 also. Or 6-800 on the alpha going under a stock 225 with a stock 6k limiter with a bob's warranty on the filler. :thumbsup:

Ok if a sporty is the only way to go, will 3.0 1.62 gears fit in a 2.5 case or are there 2 different part numbers for the 2.5 vs 3.0 gears? I know the diameter of the bullet is the same between both.

[Riverratt]

I say you came this far give the alpha a try. The sportmaster is not bullet proof or trouble free for the amount of money they cost. Keep thinking outside the box.:thumbsup:

[timmc6]

use the alpha ,pin the bearing carrier,both sides,with set screw,run one one allison for 5 yrs,no problem,plus thy are plenty of parts every where,tim

[baja200merk]

Thanks ralph will do :thumbsup:


use the alpha ,pin the bearing carrier,both sides,with set screw,run one one allison for 5 yrs,no problem,plus thy are plenty of parts every where,tim

Interesting, what kind of power do you have going through it? Do you have a cone on it?

kevin

[timmc6]

hi ,boat was a allison xb 2003 race model ,motor 2.5 merc mod vp actually was glen reynolds back up power head ,alpha gear case bobs nose cone. 1.5 inches above pad, after spinning several bearing carriers a machinist told me to let him pin it,we did and fixed the problem,tim

[baja200merk]

Thats great to hear. Why do you run an alpha?

I already purchased the factory 13 spline extension (thanks ebay) that I will have cut to 15in and re-splined to OMC. I can not wait to have a big gear! This 6100rpm limiter thing sucks!

Thanks again for the info!

[mrcrsr]

gears between a 2.5 and 3 litre are different, if you install a different driveshaft in a case you must reshim the pinion height. also, you now have a non ratcheting case, ie, the prop won't freewheel when you let off the throttle, the omc cases are the same way. a better way to do the carrier instead of pinning it is add a second key 180 degrees from the original, if you are crafty you can slot the carrier on the bench, put it back in the case and use a drill bit to add a slot to the gear housing, looks much nicer- you never know it was there! also, the reason they call a 2.5 case(newer style) an alpha style case is because the way the gears are cut- no preload pin, the gears load up because of the helical cut angle in the gearset- this is the only thing a 2.5 case has in common w/ an alpha case

[Inline Six]

I would try pinning the carrier, I have twisted sporty carriers in cases and I wasn't even running big power but I was surfacing it.

[baja200merk]

the reason they call a 2.5 case(newer style) an alpha case

I have never herd of a 2.5 called an alpha case, I dont know why they would call it an they have nothing in common. :confused:

I'm aware the case does not ratchet but I have never had a ratcheting case so im not worried about it :p. I will look into adding a second key but i would rather not have to pull the case down. The whole idea to use the alpha is cause they come with 1.62 and I dont need to tear it down, i will not be changing the drive shaft I will only be dropping on the 13 spline extension which will be splined for an OMC crank. I have my eyes open for a 1.62 Gen 2 alpha so i can drop it off at bobs asap :thumbsup:

[racer]

Alphas are a ratcheting case.

[baja200merk]

Thanks racer, this one felt like it ratchets but i figured it was just cause the shift linkage isnt hooked up or something. I like that it ratchets if the case locks up for some strange reason, seems like it would be safer.

[mrcrsr]

the later gen2 case doesn't ratchet=just assembled one, the clutch dog teeth are square without ramps. kevin, the alpha sterndrive case has a short driveshaft coming out the top, how is it long enough to reach the powerhead? the one on my boat (3 l sportmaster) w/ apha gears i used a 2.5 hi perf clutch dog w/ ramps so it would ratchet, not the sterndrive dog. kevin, sei sells parts over on the west coast as well as complete 3 liter cases w/ 1.62 gears

[Riverratt]

I thought the sporties on the 300 xs was non ratcheting also?

[930turbo]

It must be a fast boat. Some quick calculations puts you at 110+ if you can turn it 6k.

[transomstand]

I don't know why you have any concerns about durability, it's only going under an OMC:leaving:

[baja200merk]

Ralph I was under the impression no 3.0 cases ratchet.


the later gen2 case doesn't ratchet=just assembled one, the clutch dog teeth are square without ramps. kevin, the alpha sterndrive case has a short driveshaft coming out the top, how is it long enough to reach the powerhead? the one on my boat (3 l sportmaster) w/ apha gears i used a 2.5 hi perf clutch dog w/ ramps so it would ratchet, not the sterndrive dog. kevin, sei sells parts over on the west coast as well as complete 3 liter cases w/ 1.62 gears
The one i have here is from a 2002 so im sure it is a gen 2. It seems to ratchet by hand but the shift linkage moves when it does :confused: it sure feels like it ratchets because an OMC case will not do that. I dont really care either way. SEI cases scare me, their warranty would go out the window after the cone goes on and the cases are not known for their durability so i dont want one to lock up and put me in the woods at 100+. I have thought about using their torquemaster with the low water pickups in the case and having my brother tig a small cone (like the one below) on it and mill/drill water passages through;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TH-Marine-Nose-Cone-NC-1-/300524284565?hash=item45f8a4aa95&item=300524284565&pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr

As I stated earlier I have the factory mercury drive shaft extension to go on the stub shaft, looks like this :thumbsup:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220807635850?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

930turbo- Im expecting to be some where around there, Im really wanting to go this route to get the 7-8mpg cruise at 75-80. I have other powerheads with no limiter I can throw on if i want to put down some numbers. The boat already ran 105 with a 200 carb

[baja200merk]

I don't know why you have any concerns about durability, it's only going under an OMC:leaving:

Your funny........................................ looking :D

I think you should be working on adapting an OMC case under yours. You had more case issues in the last 6 months then I have had with the OMC in the last 6 years. All i have ever done to my case it change the oil in it, you cant say that about your last 3 cases this year :eek:.

Oh and its a BRP get it right homie ;)

[motorheadbishop]

I don't know why you have any concerns about durability, it's only going under an OMC:leaving:

:iagree: 100%...
Kev I have a nissan lower unit that leaks oil pretty bad, But as mentioned above it should hold up under an OMC...
Or should I say BRP (B.ad - R.ecalled - P.roducts!!!) WHAT!!!:p

[baja200merk]

What color is the STD now Michael? :eek:

[motorheadbishop]

:leaving:Clear....:leaving:or almost clear Kevin...:p

[baja200merk]

You mean transparent :D

[motorheadbishop]

You mean transparent :D

Only on the deck...:eek:

Ok back to the HighPerformance merc part on a BAD MAMMA GAMMA BRP....:p:cheers:

[TEXAS20225]

mrcrsr is correct on the two keyways its oh so much better then pinning one i have rebuilt hundreds of lower units and just about everyone i have seen has busted the ring that its pinned thru . i know the 3.0 carrier is heavier the the 2.5 fishing motor stuff but long runs a WOT tend to make propshafts flex especially stainless ones with big blades on them and stuff starts to unravel keep an eye on the seals good luck with the conversion

[racer]

Correct the late gen2 does not ratchet the early one does why Merc can make them the same is beyond me. Pros and cons to both, ratchet is good if you lock up a powerhead non ratchet can help get you out of trouble if you get loose.

[mrcrsr]

kevin, the reason you think the case you have is ratcheting is the shift shaft is moving as it jumps over the dogs-hold the shaft stationary and you won't be able to spin the propshaft without the driveshaft turning. you mite want to check to make sure the splines on the alpha fit your extension, not sure they are the same. you are probably used to non ratcheting cases w/ the omc, i drove a vegas w/ a newer non ratcheting merc case, it was weird letting off the throttle like the brakes were being applied! you can make the case ratchet by changing the clutch dog. incidentally, i know '96 and up gen2's don't ratchet

[baja200merk]

I thought something was weird when watching the shift shaft move like that. Im not scared of it not ratcheting I have been stuck with a a non ratcheting case and a tiny skeg for years :rolleyes: The bigger skeg alone should make it handle like a dream compared to the OMC case. I have done plug chops 90-0 on the action with non ratcheting case and had no issues but it is like hitting the brakes compared to ratcheting. The worst is when you have an SVS slide style intake on a non ratcheting case and no one warns you not to chop the throttle :eek: Holey chit does it stop almost slams ya into the wheel. If i notice anything strange or have any reason to tear the alpha down I will put the ratcheting clutch dog in it :iagree: Thanks for the info!

I made sure the extension would fit before i bought it, then I spent a few weeks beating the hell out of them on the price :D
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp163/hondacr8288/IMG_20111208_091415.jpg

[Capt.Insane-o]

Don't forget to plug the hole! :D

[mrcrsr]

Don't forget to plug the hole! :D good point!!!! don't forget to seal the oil transfer hole closed on top of the case!!

[baja200merk]

What the tiny wire nut stuck in the hole now is not gonna work? :confused:

Its only going under an OMC remember? :p :D

[Tom Foley]

Whats with that 3 Phase power cord hanging from that unused Single phase welder ????:cheers::cheers:

[baja200merk]

Whats with that 3 Phase power cord hanging from that unused Single phase welder ????:cheers::cheers:

Maytag power cord :eek:

Yea it is, get on beefs ass tell him get it together!

[baja200merk]

Update....

I picked up a 3.0 225 EFI case with bad gears and a bobs cone on it for $100. The first 3 numbers on the PN is 162 I dont know if that means it has 1.62s or not. I dropped it off to get the skeg profiled like a sporty and Im going to order gears for it asap unless someone has some used ones they want to sell. Let me know if you Tree liter guys have any 1.62s laying around, with 6200rpm limiter 1.75s are not an option. Im trying to have this interracial couple up and running in 2 weeks so sooner the better! :D

thanks :thumbsup:
Kevin

[TEXAS20225]

be sure to get the right gears all 3.0 aint the same

[baja200merk]

I will get the numbers off the case cause I have no clue what year it is all I know for sure is its a 3.0. Went to drill the carrier nut but my drill battery died at the same time I ran out of ambition, tomorrow is another day.

another issue is going to be shift linkage.

Thanks for the info!

[mrcrsr]

you'll know if you got the correct gears for the case if the fwd bearing fits, that is the main difference. the early ones were "mutt" cases" in that they used a different fwd bearing.

[baja200merk]

ok I will make sure that is correct. Thanks for the info!

[baja200merk]

The numbers on the top of the case by the shift rod are 1623822442-0 2. Anyone know what the hell I have? :confused:

The only number I can find that comes close is a 1623822442C2 and it says to use one bearing with casting ending in c 2 and another bearing with casting c 3 so hopefully im ordering the correct gears/bearings

[RSWORDS]

Bringing this up.

What's needed to run an alpha case on a 3 liter?

I have the coupler and shaft.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Merc or OMC?

[TEXAS20225]

no 3.0 case is a alpha thats a 2.5 case

[RSWORDS]

Merc or OMC?

Merc. I see lots of "it will work" but not much "here I did it"

[Capt.Insane-o]

Change the driveshaft and plug the oil transfer hole. And you need a gen 2 lower.

[RSWORDS]

Change the driveshaft and plug the oil transfer hole. And you need a gen 2 lower.

Or use a two piece shaft correct?

[RSWORDS]

Change the driveshaft and plug the oil transfer hole. And you need a gen 2 lower.

Or use a two piece shaft correct?

What about the shift shaft? Just a simple swap to the outboard style?

[HaulNbass]

Wow!!!!!

[Capt.Insane-o]

Shift shaft too.

[HaulNbass]

I don't know why you have any concerns about durability, it's only going under an OMC:leaving:lol, that’s funny!

[RSWORDS]

Shift shaft too.

What are you doing to plug the gear lube hole? Pipe plug? Weld?

[Capt.Insane-o]

Stainless set screw tapped and loctited in place

[RSWORDS]

Stainless set screw tapped and loctited in place

Awesome. Hopefully get this knocked out today after work.

[RSWORDS]

Shoot.... ain't nothing to it. Shift shaft swapped right out. Two piece drive shaft and a 1/16 NPT plug and I'm ready to roll. Only crappy part is no vent/level hole for gear lube changes. Measured down the shift shaft bore and made a mark for full.

It will do for the summer.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Oh yes and there is that, I made a tool to cut a vent plug hole, it's been awhile since the sei lowers came out so cheap they took the fun out of everything.

[baja200merk]

The alpha worked fine for a while but we ended up getting a 3.0 sporty housing and swapped all the guts to it. Made a bushing to run the small propshaft bearings in the sporty carrier and it ran with a small shaft for couple years. We have since swapped to All Fat shaft stuff for reliablilty but I have a list of broken parts anyway... 2 cracked carriers on different cases, 1 case cracked by forward bearing, I broke a fat propshaft by the forward Gear (with a stock 200HO POWERHEAD) I’m sure I’m forgetting something. After breaking carriers I stopped doin 100+ mike river rides with the big 36p but now with billet carriers I might try again, 90mph at 4800 makes for great fuel mileage.

[RSWORDS]

This will be on my skiff so I'm not worried about parts breaking and it definitely wont be surfaced. Lol

I've got it all mocked up, waiting on a 1/16 pipe plug and I'll be set.


The alpha worked fine for a while but we ended up getting a 3.0 sporty housing and swapped all the guts to it. Made a bushing to run the small propshaft bearings in the sporty carrier and it ran with a small shaft for couple years. We have since swapped to All Fat shaft stuff for reliablilty but I have a list of broken parts anyway... 2 cracked carriers on different cases, 1 case cracked by forward bearing, I broke a fat propshaft by the forward Gear (with a stock 200HO POWERHEAD) I’m sure I’m forgetting something. After breaking carriers I stopped doin 100+ mike river rides with the big 36p but now with billet carriers I might try again, 90mph at 4800 makes for great fuel mileage.

[Chaz]

This will be on my skiff so I'm not worried about parts breaking and it definitely wont be surfaced. Lol

I've got it all mocked up, waiting on a 1/16 pipe plug and I'll be set.

Pitt-chhh-erzzzz of how ya done it , or it never happened … :eek: :)



Chaz= thinkin , trick azz retro fit thread … and not one pitcher ta look at . Just ain't right I tell ya … :nonod: :D

[RSWORDS]

Pitt-chhh-erzzzz of how ya done it , or it never happened … :eek: :)



Chaz= thinkin , trick azz retro fit thread … and not one pitcher ta look at . Just ain't right I tell ya … :nonod: :D

Lol. I'll take some but really nothing to it.

All the stuff you do this should be child play

[RSWORDS]

Pitt-chhh-erzzzz of how ya done it , or it never happened … :eek: :)



Chaz= thinkin , trick azz retro fit thread … and not one pitcher ta look at . Just ain't right I tell ya … :nonod: :D

Here you go. 1/16 pipe plug fits in the oil hole perfectly. Just a quick shot with the tap. Make sure you tap deep enough that the top of the plug is below the case. Little sealant and snug it up.

Shift shaft swap is easy. 2 pieces upper shaft and coupler is easy enough to find if you dont want to swap shafts. The only external difference I see is that the case is a bit shorter then my outboard case.

Attach it all together and boom..... 1.62 3 liter case

414310414311414312

[RSWORDS]

I had a coupler and upper shaft for a 25 so I went that route

414314

[RSWORDS]

Well. Got the boat rigged up. Everything works as it should

[Chaz]

Lol. I'll take some but really nothing to it.

All the stuff you do this should be child play

Having no use for an Alfada or Bravado , it was easy for me to over complicate and become exacerbated between my ears of said oil hole location …. ;)

What I've learned :

Nice Pair also likes pictures …. :)

Other people use tool box tops and work stations as "storage areas" . No matter how many you got , ( nice box's btw ) by mid-week they get piled up . :o

Splines are in great shape . :thumbsup:

Alfy's a short fella … hummm . Never knew that .

How much shorter .. ?

Might have to go over to the marina over the weekend and crawl thru the junk yard . :leaving:

Ifin I set one of them on this 15" can I gotz layin around doin nuttin , would that be considered a poor man's 12" mid section … :D

Of course pit-cherz would follow … ;)

[RSWORDS]

Having no use for an Alfada or Bravado , it was easy for me to over complicate and become exacerbated between my ears of said oil hole location …. ;)

What I've learned :

Nice Pair also likes pictures …. :)

Other people use tool box tops and work stations as "storage areas" . No matter how many you got , ( nice box's btw ) by mid-week they get piled up . :o

Splines are in great shape . :thumbsup:

Alfy's a short fella … hummm . Never knew that .

How much shorter .. ?

Might have to go over to the marina over the weekend and crawl thru the junk yard . :leaving:

Ifin I set one of them on this 15" can I gotz layin around doin nuttin , would that be considered a poor man's 12" mid section … :D

Of course pit-cherz would follow … ;)


I was thinking the same thing about a poor man short case.

[RSWORDS]

Just an fyi also.... the alpha case is a ratcheting case

[Chaz]

Are they still being built and used today ?
Of have they gone the way of the 283 Chevrolet , use to be a dime a dozen in the junk yard , rare as hens teeth now ?
Did they ever come with a fat shaft , or is that Bravo territory ?
How much shorter than a standard lower unit are they ?

That's enough Q+A for one day … :D

[RSWORDS]

Are they still being built and used today ?
Of have they gone the way of the 283 Chevrolet , use to be a dime a dozen in the junk yard , rare as hens teeth now ?
Did they ever come with a fat shaft , or is that Bravo territory ?
How much shorter than a standard lower unit are they ?

That's enough Q+A for one day … :Dyes they are still being built. No fat shaft. That's bravo stuff I'm guessing 3/4 to an inch in length shorter (front to back)

[Chaz]

Robert , Now I'm all heart broke ... :nonod:

I thought the (&&^%$%$& T%$#%&** things was @%^&^%^$%# shorter up and )(*&^%^%&*(( &&^%^$%& down … :eek:

OK , I'm all better now … :cheers:

Still and all , not a bad deal as a low cost way to a 3.0L lower unit with a 1.62 gear set .. :thumbsup: :D

[RSWORDS]

Robert , Now I'm all heart broke ... :nonod:

I thought the (&&^%$%$& T%$#%&** things was @%^&^%^$%# shorter up and )(*&^%^%&*(( &&^%^$%& down … :eek:

OK , I'm all better now … :cheers:

Still and all , not a bad deal as a low cost way to a 3.0L lower unit with a 1.62 gear set .. :thumbsup: :D
Sorry about the confusion


But.... it's a low cost way to get a Ratcheting 1.62 case at that.