Brucato's new ECU ( OEM replacement )

[Jay Smith]

Man got one of Tony's new ECU's today for a customer and man is it TRICK lookin. I ordered it with the optional steam wheel adjustable fuel curve dial for the dash too. Can't wait to get this puppy on this customer's motor.I will give folks an update when the motor is ready. I know if its a Brucato Machine part is gotta be a winner ! If Tony's name is on it you can buy with confidence.

[Laker]

At Jasper TREX Gave us a glowing report and review on that unit. He went into detail (As much as the old Gezer could remember...) on how he was adjusting and tuning durring testing! IT SOUNDS Awsome! TOO Bad they dont sell lock tight to the coonasses

[Balzy]

I love it Laker. Hey Rex, now who wasn't listen'in in school, ha?

Laker if ya wanna live up to your title ya better get hold of me perty soon. I wanna see you and Mrs. Laker up here in the checkerboard wonderland soon !!!!!!!!!!!

[us1]

I just got one too. It is totally awesome. I haven’t tested it yet either but I can’t think for a minute it won’t work as good as it looks. It has a separate richness setting for every 500 RPM. Finally someone got it right. Thanks Tony.

[TB21]

Is this ECU ajustable like the MAD EFI SDS unit? Just curious.....i've been running one of the MAD ECU's for a couple of years now and totally love it....and i think they've been out for 4-5 years now. driver ajustabilty is way cool.

[us1]

I don’t use a MAD but Tony’s has an adjustment for every 500 RPM, an adjustment for each set of two injectors (top, mid and bottom) it has an accelerator pump function with richness control and sensitivity control. The entire fuel curve can be adjusted with a laptop for use in 2.0L vs. 2.5 Mod-U etc. And it has a dash control for adjusting the whole fuel curve while driving. And if I remember correctly it has an idle richness control too. All this just bolts on to a stock motor, no need for after market sensors.

[TB21]

Yep sound a little like my SDS except it seems more complicated?? i dont need a laptop to adjust...the SDS has its own led programmer. And with the SDS i can change in 250 rpm increments. The SDS also has fully adjustable accelerator pump feature....and dash mounted rich lean knob to go + or - 50% on the fuel curve. I figured as good as the SDS works that it wouldnt be long before someone else started building something like it....Thats great because competition is good for any motorsports.

[T-REX]

All U need is a small screwdriver and a lil common sence!!!...Totally user freindly...Hell, if Jay and John kan do it!!!Well, nuff said:D ...I have one, with the help of Tony, at Jasper, I itested with the programable ECU on my "Bastard Child" 2.0...They make NO, az in NUN, ECU chips that fit the radical and unusuall ports and port timing of my lil motor...After having a conversation with Tony at the Rumble(and holding my 20"yamaha over hiz head), We decided to give it a try on my oddball motor combo...cuz if it works on my combo, it will work on anything!!...And work it did!!! In testing I tuned out a slow spot between 7500 and 8800, with a top RPM gain of 700rpm...dialed in the launch to the tune of .3 in 100'...Swapped wheels, a few twist of the pots, and a 26" wheel dialed in...went to a 27" wheel, lil more turning and whamo, dialed in.........Tha easy thing about this ECU iz when U purchase it, Tony will load what ever curve U want in it(if he haz it), or U send him your stock unit,and he will load the new ECU with your curve...The buck don't stop there, He iz working on a program to be able to download the curve from the ECU...store it in the laptop(or mainframe), then reload it when needed...When this iz dun, U will be able to change powerheads, or wheels and go to the computer and download the curve for the application U are going to use...If You don't have a curve, You can call Tony, If he haz it, then it is only an e-mail away...Iz that neet **** or what??...I wouldn't trade mine for 3 fatladiez on a cold rainy night!!!!!!...T-REX:cool:

[Steve Zuckerman]

Rex,
Youz tha funniest talkin boter I ever heered! 3 fat ladies indeed!
You mus be likin that black box o Tony's a bunch:cool: . Now you done gone an cost me mo money :rolleyes: .
Happy Holidays you crazy Cajun and all your Byou Boyz too:D !
Best Regards,
Steve;)

[espen]

Hi !
I am hoping to be able to get MOTEC efi systems for a good price in the near future just send me a mail if anyone are interested.
Just mounted a M880 a 3200+usd unit on a Maserati, 15 minutes driving was what it took to get the fuel curve right just pushing a button when the Dual wide band lamdas has measured the air fuel mix . It has allso 62 channels that can be measured and stored in the 4mb internal memory or in the lap top.it can drive cd ignitions and put on a cup of coffee for you at a certain rpm if thats what you want... Or log temp ,pressures,g-loads, gyros.could be a great develping tool for a drag boat besides beeing a 32 bit fast system with high injector pulse width resolution. Any cyl can be adjusted separate on fuel and ignition timing.Any type of low (like on the 2.5s) peek and hold injectors or high ohm saturated injectors can be used.
Its extremly adaptable to any thing you would want to control or log .
MAD clames thats important to have control over each bank of the V6, is this important? Tonys system could have some problems with this. for the DIY there is the megasquirt system costs 100usd as a kit but has only 2 outputs and can not be timed for same crank case pressures like in a crank case injected 2,5 efi.
thanks

[Tony Brucato]

T-Rex, Glad that you're so happy, but 3 fat ladies is my top offer!

TB21, I ran a SDS on my own boat for a few months and I know why you're so happy. It's great to be able to adjust your own fuel curve on the fly. Much better than using a stock Mercury ECU on your modified motor. My PCU has 24 RPM adjustment points spaced in 500 RPM steps to 8000, and then in 250 RPM steps up to 10,500.
Adjustments can be made with just a screwdriver, including seperate injector pairs, acceleration compensation for volume and sensitivity, 24 different RPM fuel adjustments, and overall fuel adjustment.
By interfacing with your laptop you can adjust rev limit and fuel delivery at every engine load.

Espen, The MOTEC system is the top of the line in EFI. It's got more features and capabilities than anyone could use, and the price tag reflects that.

In regards to MAD's claim of importance of controling each bank.
The Brucato PCU fires injectors in three batches of pairs, just like the Mercury ECU. The MAD ECU fires in two batches of three, cylinders 1,3,5 in one batch and cylinders 2,4,6 in the other batch. Why is this difference important?

In the PCU and the Mercury ECU the injection into the crankcase is phased at about the same time in each cylinder (actually 60 degrees difference from bank to bank). Crankcase pressure is very close to identical at each injector firing. Therefore backpressure and fuel flow are close to identical.

On the MAD ECU each cylinder in the bank being fired is 120 degrees apart. Crankcase pressure could be anywhere from + 5 pounds pressure for one cylinder to 8 inches of vacuum at a different cylinder. This large difference in backpressure would make equal fuel delivery unlikely.

The above explanation only applies to crankcase injected motors. I ran my MAD ECU on a ProMax motor where the injectors spray in front of the reeds and are unaffected by crankcase pressure.

Tony

[MERCMAN]

4 THINGS........

1. TONY , I HAVE NOT RECEIVED MY FREE "TEST" UNIT.

2. IT PROBABLY WONT BE LONG BEFORE WE SEE THE BRUCATO ECU REPLACE THE FMS UNIT USED ON MERCS RACE ENGINES NOW, RIGHT TONY? GOOD LUCK AND I WILL BE "TESTING" IN THE NEAR FUTURE!

3. GREAT JOB WITH THE NEW ECU , IM SURE YOU PUT ALOT INTO THIS AS WITH EVERYTHING YOU DO!

4. PLEASE DONT FORGET TO SHIP MY "TEST" UNIT! IT WILL NEED ALL THE GOODIES FOR A PROPER "TESTING" MIGHT AS WELL SEND TWO OR THREE JUST TO BE SAFE.LOL!

[XS4U7566]

Jay keep us informed on testing your unit, i am hoping to order mine after the first of the year thanks for another great product tony Greg.

[Tony Brucato]

Mercman,

We haven't given away any "free" test units, but we have them in stock now and ready for delivery.
I doubt that Mercury would be intrested in changing to somebody elses parts...... Oh yeah, never mind.
I should call Mrs Mercman to give her some Xmas gift ideas!

Tony

[MERCMAN]

mrs mercman is actually mrs. mall lady and wouldnt have a clue what we are talking about, she knows what a boat is but doesnt really understand the rest , email me pricing on everything , i'll probably test one when it warms up and post opinion on the website , im sure it will be great ,grapevine says good things!

[SAMMY CORLEY]

Tony, would also like a price on one of your ecu's. e-mail if you would like.


[email protected]

[dan agnew]

yyyeeeeehhhhhhhaaaaaaa, more goodies with which to play. man i love workin for a guy that likes to play with ****tt.
i say again yyyyyeeeeehhhhhaaaaa!!!!! hell yes sammy you da man

Danny
ps maybe the squeeze will respond with that piece.

[TB21]

Tony i checked out the unit on your web page....very nice that you incorperated it to plug into the original merc harness...i like that. While in the devlopment stages did you ever consider mounting the pots in a seperate box that would have adj. access with out removing covers....and have it on a extension harness from the PCU to the driver? The way its is now would be very simple for the guy that is use to a std. merc ECU....but after getting attached to the way i adjust my SDS I dont think i'd be happy having to remove covers , using tools , or having the whole ECU mounted close to driver to be able to make fuel curve adjustments.....to me just reacjing over and pushing a few buttons on a 3" x 5" programming box is much simpler. But then again maybe you have a very good reason for the way you did it? If it had the above ability i'd probaly order one tomorrow. And one more question....since you've run the SDS and now your PCU...what improvements would i see over my SDS that im 100% satisfied with? And thats not intended as a smart ass question. Because I am interested in trying your unit. Thanks TB

[Tony Brucato]

TB21,

I would still be using the SDS if I didn't have the PCU today, I grew quite attached to it myself. Having control over your ECU makes performance.

After installing and using the SDS there were a few things that I wanted different on the Brucato PCU.

As you noted, pluging into the original Mercury ECU harness is a big plus vs. the involved installation of the SDS. Besides the time and labor involved in the SDS installation, retaining the stock ECU harness allows using your old Mercury ECU as an emergency replacement.

I decided that the injectors should be fired in pairs vs. fired in banks, as I've explained earlier. I think it's a real concern in crankcase injection.
The PCU also alows controling the injector pairs seperately +/- 15% from each other. I never saw any benifit to adjusting cylinder banks seperately on the SDS except at idle.

The SDS uses no MAP sensor, but only a throttle position sensor. This is acceptable in a drag racing aplication where engine load is repeatable. For lake use however I feel that this is inadequate.

Under varying conditions such as part throtte, carrying passengers, different propeller selections, and unusual trim settings the SDS has no way to sense engine load and depends on driver input via the steam wheel ang EGT information to compensate.
The Brucato PCU on the other hand, uses a MAP sensor to sense engine load and to determine throttle position similar to the Mercury ECU. AT a higher sensed load the PCU calibrates more fuel automatically. At a lower sensed load the PCU calibrates less fuel.

In actual use, the adjustment pots inside the PCU are quite easy to use. We had toyed with many different options for adjusting this unit including a dedicated programing unit similar to the one on your SDS.
I've found that many of the racers and other potential users of the PCU wanted nothing to do with a computer or programer in the boat. Still, others wanted comeplete programing control over the PCU.
You can alter the curve that's already in the box with just a screwdriver, or control every function available by interfacing with your laptop or PC.

In the future we may add new features to the PCU. We are currently working on improved terminal software that will allow downloading and uploading fuel curves, also software to allow use of a palm pilot to act a a programing terminal.

One major goal that I had for the PCU was to keep the price competitive with a new Mercury ECU. I think that we've packed a lot of real features in for this price.

I think you would be quite impressed with the features of the PCU compared to your SDS. After all, that was my benchmark!

Tony

[TB21]

Thanks Tony.....very defined answers. I sure do agree on the map to adjust according to load....i'll be in touch. TB

[H2Onut]

There is definate room for a PCU in my Christmas stocking !

May I had, hung by the chimney with car, in hopes that Santa Tony soon would be there.

[SHADOW]

Tony-

I got one of your PCUs a few weeks ago but haven't had the weather to run it yet. I forgot to ask, and thought others here might want to know, does it have a starting enrichment circuit (yellow/red wire) like the stock Merc boxes ?

Thanks,

Jim

[Tony Brucato]

Jim,

The PCU uses an enrichment cycle just as you describe.

Tony

[HAPPYPIG]

SO, IS THE SYSTEM THAT tONY HAS DESIGNED AFFECTIVE ON A STOCK 2.5 UNIT OR IS IT A WASTE OF TIME. I AM ALSO RUNNING A TWIN ENGINE SET UP AND WONDERING IF IT WOULD BE AFFORDABLE? EXCELLENT POST, LOTS OF GOOD INFO!

[Tony Brucato]

Happypig,

If you have a bone stock 2.5 with the apropriate Mercury ECU, any performance gains should be minimal. Once you start modifying your motor however, the stock ECU will be inadequate and the PCU will have something to improve.

Go to http://brucatosvs.com/pcu.html (http://http://brucatosvs.com/pcu.html) for pricing information.
The Brucato PCU is priced very competitively with a new Mercury ECU.

Thanks

Tony

[T-REX]

all out performance gain may be minimal, but will still be sum there...but on stock motors(especially twins), U kan syncronize ya motors at tha speed you use most, plus U can pinpoint your fuel curve at the respected cruising speed and not worry about leen spots in the stock ECU's...U kan maximize the curve to git the best from your stock motor at any rpm U desire...the stock ecu's are purdy much just general curves to deliver the rated HP and to be half assed user friendly...If U git the PCU's, and use them to thier fullest, I do thank you will see a good improvement over stock, If U just put them on at set curve and don't tune, then U probabbly waste'in ya money...Tha potencial iz there, U just have to use it!!!...Damm, I jus talked myself into 4 fatladiez;) ...REX

[Greg Moss]

Just came over here to see if you are talking titties here too:D

[Jay Smith]

I THOUGHT I said (and it is in print at the beginning of the post)this was a "TRICK LOOKING" piece and I could'nt wait to try it on a customer's motor and I would report how it worked ....... Gee folks I think they got a " hooked on phonics program on Christmas Sale some of you need to invest "

Damn Ya can't say anything good about anything or anyone without someone chiming in from the "PEANUT GALLERY".....Jealousy is a hell of a thing to overcome some folks need to work on it !

Just my opinion ( opinions: like assholes everybodys got one and more than half stink and are most of the time unsolicted )

[MERCMAN]

holked un phunics verked fol me!

[rookieflyer]

Congrats on what sounds like a successful project. While the individual pieces of an ECU are fairly straightforward, getting it all together and packaged to work as well as what I am reading here is certainly an accomplishment. As you do more & more electronic projects, the design cycle will shorten considerably also - although it seems you did make it in time for the holiday shoppers....cudos!
When I finally get rid of my carb'ed motors, I'd love to use your unit - it sounds like it provides the ultimate in control!!!

[sosmerc]

I suppose the reason that Merc is not developing similar adjustable units is that it would not be legal for customers to tamper with their EPA legal 1998 and newer motors.
I think it is great that someone is doing it. Keep up the great work. The idea of being able to download and upload different mapping programs is very neat. I would also like to see some ability to adjust individual injectors on the fly.
Awhile back I bought some temp guages that use temperature probes that mount between the spark plugs and the head. I never have really had the time to set up a V-6, but I have run them on some small 2 cylinders and could see differences between the way each cylinder was running.
I don't know why this couldn't be used to dial in individual cylinders on a V-6. I had to have a machinist open up the area around the plugs on my 2.5 litre so the sensors would fit. Somebody must make a temp sensor that is small enough that could be permanently mounted in the head right next to the spark plug hole. Merc used to have a very tiny temperature "switch" that went in real close to the number one spark plug on some of their inline engines, but it was just a switch, not a sensor. I would just like to see an easy way to monitor all six cylinders individually.

[rookieflyer]

Hey, sosmerc, now you're talkin' my language. Temp measurement is my specialty (read: favorite).

Is there a site where I can look at what you have, or do you have some pix to share? I'd love to make some sensors or thermocouples that are minimally iintrusive......

[sosmerc]

As soon as I get some free time I will get you some pictures of what I have and what I am trying to do. Pretty busy this weekend sharing the computer with my wife as we try to get our Xmas cards out, last minute shopping, as well as trying to get some stuff ready for Ebay. All this time spent on trying to build a better ECU could be better spent trying to build a machine that creates more time....I just need more time!!

[Travis Fulton]

could we get some pix of the 3 FAT ladies? its gettin kinda cold in missouri,

[T-REX]

U sho ask'in a lot...would be kinna expensive...aireale photoz cost big money, and dats tha only way ta git'em in tha same pic...

[tluckam]

I have a friend that races go carts and has a temp gage where the sencer replaces the spark plug washer.

[sosmerc]

That sounds like what I have. They are made by VDO...but I'm sure there are others. You need some room around the plug hole...never enough on the outboards. A better solution would be a sensor that clamps around the plug...near the base...I guess you could hose clamp a sensor against the plug around the "hex".

[Techno]

There are small chip temp sensors. Give a signal in either analog or digital for which ever system your going to hook it up to. I think some are the size of a transistor. About the size of an eraser on a mechanical pencil.

[rookieflyer]

I use raw sensing components in my temp and pressure systems, and I have never found anything top be as accurate, repeatable, and with the longevity of thermocouples.

I am testing some small Thermistor sensors which we will fab here if they turn out to be reliable. They will probably be the smallest and easiest to fit solution.

I also use a good number of semiconductor analog temp sensors, some of which are packaged in the same shape and size as small TO-92 transistors. While they are not very accurate from an instrumentation point of view, I have a feeling they would be more than adequate for this use.

Would +/- 2 or 3 degrees F matter?

If so, I can easily see them outputting to a small controller that reads all of them and outputs to any number of display types.

Assuming that these could be made small and inexpensive, where would be the best non-intrusive place to mount them and what temp range would they see there??

[sosmerc]

+/- 2 or 3 degrees shouldn't matter. I would think a range of 75 to 500 degrees would be adequate. The VDO guage and sensor has a range of 100 to 600 .

[sosmerc]

Someone needs to take a single cylinder engine and rig it with both an egt guage and a temp guage with the sensor on the spark plug so that we can see which reacts the quickest to changes in fuel mixture adjustment and timing. I haven't had a chance to do a test like this, but I'd sure like to know if putting a temp sensor on the plug is worth it. I question the safety of depending on one probe for each bank on the v-6 engines because it's location can't give a clear indication of what's happening in each cylinder.

[us1]

The EGT is many times faster than the head temp sensor.

[T-REX]

EGT's may be ok on lightly mod motors or stockies, but on a drastically modified motor, they are like a shot in tha dark...Tha radical port hieghts and durations, on my 2.0 made useing EGT's imposible...the unburned fuel flowing across tha piston and into& out tha exhaust ports, cooled tha EGT;s to tha point of giving a false reeding...I don't think useing EGT;s to tune with iz such a good idea...At Jasper, Tony and I tuned my motor(wit hiz box) juss useing tha tach and plug reedingz...Tony's box can succesfully be tuned to tha engine witout useing EGT's...Juss my 2 centz...REX:cool:

[sosmerc]

T-Rex...my thought was if you had a way to watch plug temps, along with reading piston tops, you could establish a meaningful baseline of plug temp data...and future monitoring might give advance warning of an impending problem (and exactly which cylinder was having the problem)...if the temp was suddenly way cold then that cylinder was either not firing right, or running way rich...or getting cooled down by something outa wack...head gasket leak, broken reed, timing off on that cylinder, etc. The trick would be learning what plug temp reading would be best for each cylinder.
I think using egt for tuning would be great if there was a probe sticking very near the exhaust port for each cylinder...doesn't look very feasible on a V-6 Merc. But then again, maybe enough data has been established on "normal" mildly modified or even stock motors that one can feel safe running whatever temp the experts recommend for the particular setup.

[rookieflyer]

T-Rex's point's are technically sound, and make the point that thermocouples in an EGT monitoring system are inherently faster than any type of sensor mounted on a chunk of metal. Thermocouples are intentionally made with low thermal mass so they can respond to changes more quickly. There really are no false readings from them - but they will fluctuate for 2 main reasons - 1. Seebeck effect and poor compensation from a poorly designed iso block; 2. poor software filtering, which can make a nice smooth 'average' output from a wandering t'couple level.

If rapid temp changes are a normal part of the process being measured, mounting the sensors on the heads will slow it down, and the results will be clouded by thermal migration, especially in light metals like aluminum. But some useful information could still be read - the display may look nice and steady, but the displayed temps will be dampened by the above factors.

When I crewed for an exotic fuel car (TAFC), we realized the need for undampened response because at hi-R's thngs can go to pieces in a real hurry. For the avaerage street racer, even slow readings are agreat improvement over having NO temp info. Perhaps it's the same here......

In T-Rex's case, if making a significant change, such as adding Tony's box, etc.. caused the system to give readings that seemed off, or erratic, it is likely that the 'new' EGTemp range was suddenly asked to work in a region that the unit is not compensated for properly. So the box changed something - is it really all positive?

While it's true that unburned fuel, etc will lower EGT t'couple readings, that's because they really are cooler. Temps are probably fluctuating more also, especially if the T'couples are located in a large low pressure area where the gasses can't mix well and there's more 'wet stuff' mixed in the flow.

A couple of years ago, my EGT design had to compete with a couple of others - and lost - because the customer (a major reseller) wanted to spend < $50 per unit (even though it was to sell retail for big bucks). The 'greed factor' caused them to go with a system designed by a hobbyist with no knowledge of software filtering or the thermal dynamics needed to design the isolation block for the wiring connections. It works well sometimes....I have a feeling this is the case more often than not. Nobody wants to hear that their 'simple' system will really require hundreds of assembly language programming hrs @$150 per and a lab full of expensive digital analysis tools to do properly, so they find some kid who plays in his basement until it SEEMS TO work.

T-Rex, What EGT system do you have? I'm ultra-curious because if it can be made to work better, it should be able to tell how the ECU really is performing, other than by subjective means. It might really have been seeing more unburned fuel, which might indicate mis-timing of injectors, or a myriad of other things that can be improved.

[Markus]

Rex,

The challenge with EGTs is that you need a baseline to start from. With a modified motor, you can not just take that baseline from what works for someone else - you have to find it yourself since you will have different timing, exhaust pressure etc., and not least a different EGT gauge. Once you have found it, you can use EGTs to make sure that you are not burning pistons, but before you know that EGT reading X corresponds to burnt pistons and EGT reading Y corresponds to overly rich mixture, you are better off reading pistons and plugs than guages.

[rookieflyer]

Since you guys have more than a fair amount of outboard experience, perhaps you can tell me if my reasoning is correct. If not, don't hesitate to say so - you won't hurt my feelings.

It seems that there are two things we would want a temp monitor, whether EGT or otherwise, to tell us:

First, if we have established a reference, or baseline temperature it would be good to be notified if and when the temp is above or below some selectable tolerance limits around the baseline. This could be a slow, constant change.
True?

Second, if a sudden large change in temp occurs, we would want the gauge system to let us know immediately.
True also?

If so, the first scenario would be helpful for tuning, or the same could be used to establish a baseline reference temp for a particular motor setup. The second would help prevent catastrophic failure, perhaps even by automating a shutdown feature if the deviation from the baseline becomes extreme.

If this is correct, even head temps taken at or near the plugs could be very useful, especially if the gauge could sense small variations from cyl to cyl. quickly.

What say ye?

[T-REX]

Rooky, In refrence to your statement about the box changing my EGT reedingz, thats not tha case...Let me try to explain wher I stand and why....When I started modifing my 2.0, it wuz basic port timing(1.500/2.100)...I didn't use EGT's to start...But then installed a system from Chuck @ Nitrox...It's digital wit dual reedout and wit 65updates per second from probe(this is advertized info)...The EGT's worked well to start, wit 9000rpm/1100*/1180*...The more I moved the ports the less accurate the EGT's became... before I reelized what wuz happening, I wuz burning motors down wit EGT reedings of 900*...Wit the drastic port hieghts I have now, EGT's(in the exhaust @ tuner plate) are useless...There is so much unburned fuel passing across the piston and out the exhaust, that it actually cools the probes, while the piston tops tell a diffrent story......When I installed Tony's box, I could lean tha top to tha tune ov +600rpm...We went from 8900rpm to 9500rpm wit the 26"wheel...tha EGT's went from 750* to 770*!!!...On reeding the pistons, it wuz still a tad rich, but anuther 4% leen on the box didn't yeald any RPM gain, so we went back to the previous setting...I have noticed that tuning the PCU in 4% increments won't put U in the danger zone if U take 1 step at a time...A 4% change will make enuff change to show on the Tach, thus making it very simple to use your Tach for a tuning device, witout depending on EGT reedingz...I used this technique to tune my motor all the way thru the fuel curve...Tach, speedo, and or clockz, and U don't need the EGT's to tune wit....I wish they would work like I think they should, because a change in exhaust heet would warn of a problem, but when U git that warning, it's too late!!...I'm not saying ****can ya EGT's...If they work for U, I'm glad for U, but In my case(and I know theyz others out there) they juss ain't worth more than anuther instrament on tha dash!!...My way of thinking that a probe for each cyl(at or close to plug) would be the way to go for useing cyl temp to tune with...Heat from the Port bank lighting a probe to the tune of 1200*, located in the tuner plate, don't tell U didlly about the temp of the #2 cyl...The #4 could be on the verge of meltdown, and the #2 on the rich side, but the combo of tha 3 shows 1200*...U thank U safe, but U fix'in ta git a rude awaken'in...But, If U would have read dem pistonz, they would have told U the reel story...or had a temp probe for each cyl...Combustion temp iz tha game, It tells more than what is running down the tuner...I hope this iz clear enuff to understand my comment about the EGT's....Depending in a EGT to deliver a tru exhaust temp reeding iz like waiting on Santa Klause to slip dat new drag motor under yo Krissmass tree, and then take'in ya wife wit him when he leeves...Have a Good Christmas...REX

[Techno]

My way of thinking on this is if your reading of 900* is correct then from there any change is a bad thing. I'm not thinking of drag accelerations and time changes but just cruising around all the time. With 1 or 2 EGTs you don't have to look at the pistons unless it says to.
Unless 1 injecter gets stuck open and another closed I don't see how 2 cylinders can cancel out a reading, even if this can happen the other "most" things would still be indicated.

About the only way I can think of to determine a 9,000 rpm about to fail thing is to monitor the pressures on all the injectors. Not sure it would indicate different but just an idea. This may work better than an EGT to warn of a problem though.

[rookieflyer]

Rex, it sounds like you are describing a situation where the thermocouples have actually been moved farther away from the combustion chamber, is that right? I will go look at the exhaust configuration before sayiing anything for sure, but when you think about it, there had to be the same amount of unburned fuel anywhere in the exhaust path, because the amount can't magically increase as it flows.

Two things can be happening - either the longer path put the t'couples in a position where the pressure is reduced or dropping. Thermodynamics says that the temp will drop with the pressure. I used to run a crossram on a SBCV8, and the pressure drop inside the manifold cooled the whole setup to the point where the outside would freeze over while running hard on a hot summer day - so the temp drop from pressure can be significantly large.

The other is that unburned fuel can condense out of suspension with both a pressure and temp drop - it's the same amount that was there in an earlier point in the flow, but it's just somewhat more separated from the air, not mixed well. I believe that will coat the sensors/probes with wet stuff, and they will actually read the temp of the passing mix more accurately and more quickly, because the liquid would then be transferring heat by conduction much more efficiently.

I've tried to connect other concepts to what happened with your EGT readings, but as I said, I'll need to look at some pix to get a better handle on the position of the probes and the geometry of the exhaust flow.

Tech: so you think that individual cylinder readings would be better at preventing disaster once a baseline is achieved, right?
I believe this can be done, but it would probably call for drilling and tapping some small holes (perhaps 6-32 X 1/4 deep.) and screwing small sensors into them. Would this be a real negative, or would people be willing to do this?

It would be some work to figure out the dynamics of the heat transfer so as to know what time base would work in identifying a problem, but it would be a blast!

I'd be willing to try this out on one of my old 2.0's for kicks...
What else would I need to know?

I've tried to figure

[Techno]

Since the combustion temperature inside the cylinder is around 3,000*, I think it's higher, the gas is continualy cooling until it gets out to the air. The further the probes the cooler the gas. Also since the gas is expanding it's cooling as it goes. It cools also as it transmits heat to the water cooled engine. Remember this very high temp in the combustion chamber is while it's at it's smallest volume- about. From there it continually expands.
Also is the timing of the ports, the gasses are being dumped before they've done much work.
How hot are they on any paricular engine

My point on a baseline thing is if you've looked at the pistons and they look correct then what ever the EGT is saying is correct, it could read 2,000 or 500 and it wouldn't matter since this is a measureing device that is monitering Exhaust gas and not Combustion chamber temperatures. For that matter it isn't even close to telling piston temps.
X EGT* relates to Y combustion temp. But it isn't Y combustion temp. It's a relative measurement not a direct one.

[list=1]
The EGTs are way down the exhaust path
They read a combined flow from 3 cylinders
The cylinders are stacked above the probe so The top affect the lower 2, 1 bad cylinder has a differing affect depending on it's location
The probes react far too slowly to be of any real use
They are reading Exhaust gas temperature not Combustion temp
They don't tell you Combustion pressure- more important than temp?
Porting on a particular engine discharges a differerent EGT depending on it's economics VS power
They are a restriction and would be 3 +times as much if placed in the exhuast of the cylinder
Can be masked by 2 working injectors while 1 injector is faulty
Are not read constantly so the slow reaction of them is magnified
The EGT is cooled by expansion, water cooling and fuel
The don't read piston temp!
[/list=1]

The thermocouples and RTDs are still reading too slow to tell you of a specific thing, you could accelerate right through this problem area and have no reading from it. 1 second reaction time =60 rpm
For a 4,000 rpm the probe would have to read down to 15 thousandths of a second-.015
Or it has missed 65 cycles during it's 1 second reaction rate. the 66 cycles have been all averaged out and if accelerating then this gets worse.

One possible solution to this whole mess is a dual plug head. One is for the plug and the other is for a pressure or temperature probe.
If a probe could read this high temp pressure and high pressure without melting, this could be better than a temp reading.

I could be wrong but seem to remember everything is related to combustion pressure, not temperature.
Aluminum melts- read melts at around 1250*. At around half this temperature it has no strength. So thinking that a 1225 EGT reading is protecting the pistons is wrong since they are in an atmosphere twice as high as this. Under pressure and under high stress. If the piston was at 800* it probably is falling apart. There is a temp aluminum crumbles like stale bread.

[espen]

Hi !
I have seen somewhere on the net someone offering small pressure probes that can be treaded into the sparkplug and into the aria at the buttom of the isolator.
A World champ f1 racer I know used a efi system from f1 cars and 6 exhaust temp probes.
Espen

[T-REX]

They almighty dollar governz what U kan do wit a motor...If I ain't mistaken, the Motek system utilizes the probes for each cyl, plus sum...I'm not super familiar wit this system, but have talked to sum that are wealthy enuff to use it, and they have probes,and sensors in ever place that U would ever need a bit of information...The "OLD SKOOL" way of tuning iz still working and winning in sum classes, but new technolegy iz taking the front spot, but iz also raising the price of juss participating with any chance in hell ov winning!!!...I guess we fall back to tha ole std formula.....Big Cubic inches+Mega HP=Mega Cubic Dollars!!.....I ain't never put a probe NOWHERE that didn't cost me Mega bucks!!!!!REX:rolleyes:

[rookieflyer]

Iget the point behind the baseline.....pretty standard stuff. Numbers will only match between motors if all the variables are the same. This is not top-secret technology, and it doesn't have to cost a lot.

As far as the qualities of the aluminum, it's a unique metal and the combustion process even more unique. Unfortunately, the only way to get accurate temp readings of pistons (for less than $1M) is by extrapolation of assumed dimensions under thermal load. That means that a motor has to be built with known clearances, say piston OD to wall, then run, disassembled and inspected for scuff marks on the walls. The process is repeated with slightly larger piston diameters until scuffing is observed. With a known alloy, the thermal coefficient of expansion is fixed, so by figuring the amount of expansion that was required to cause the piston to touch the wall, you can extract the approximate temperature. Of course you need to know the TCE for the cylinder wall and the amount of rocking and the piston goes through to be accurate. There is simulation software that can do this, but it costs > $100k the last time I looked. Hence, only corporate conglomerates and a few universities have it. I have access to USF's sim software, but I'm told it takes a couple of months to learn.

To beat all this, why doesn't anyone make hypereutectic pistons?
I remember making trans drive discs for an offshore racer out of this stuff, and it handles something like 16X the amount of heat of standard 6 series aluminum alloys, and is almost the same weight. It costs a bit more, and due to the high silicon content not everyone can machine it, but for the cost, I would think it to be a no-brainer for racers. If I wanted to compete at a world-class level, I wouldn't hesitate.
Commercial aluminum alloys are great because they're cheap to use and make; their specific heat capacity makes them transfer local heat through the entire piston mass quickly, hence, they survive the hot combustion process well. In a perfect world, there would be no flaws in an aluminum piston's top surface, and it would endure any temps produced by non-exotic fuels. But as they say, we're nowhere near perfect.

I like Rex's point about $$. Personally, I have always believed that smaller displacement with higher R's is a better way to make HP, but that's an old argument that isn't worth starting up again.
Working in the instrument and controls end of industry, I see exactly what is being said. While there are real costs that are labor intensive - in making hard modification to fit sensors exactly where they need to be - the rest of the process is fairly straightforward and inexpensive, the only exception being the hours required to produce the software. The folks that do this stuff try to keep their customers mystified, implying that they use unique magical powers to produce their designs. If everyone knew what their systems really cost to develop (minus the profit) then nobody would pay their prices.

The economy is in shambles because prior to 9/11/01 there was what was called the 'dot-com' bust. The reality was that 99.9% of the people making big bucks in IT business had little or no clue of what they were doing, yet people paid and invested big bucks in the hope they would all succeed. It's he same in this case on a smaller scale -

I can do the software and the electronics - and I'm sure someone can handle the hardware and mechanicals - so why can't we get some kind of collaboration together that makes the ideal technology as affordable as it should be.....

I disagree slightly on the thought of EGT being useless.
Of course it would be ideal if each cylinder's gasses could be measured separately, but any change in the motor's operation will yield a temperature change that will show up in the exhaust gas. Yup, to be sure any changes will get lumped in with heat exchange between materials, cylinders, walls, etc...etc....but once these are all analyzed, the resulting data could be very useful....

Also, why couldn't another set of holes be placed in the heads so other sensors could be easily added? This would be a super inexpensive way to get solated cylinder data....

OK, I'll get off the soap box now......

[Techno]

There are 2 views on this board, if it isn't stated then it all relates to drag racing. Some of the stuff is shared and some isn't. Like props. Tiny little things for drag racing since their whole goal is getting to go fast not going fast. And for short periods of time.
For those of us that just want to go fast then we have to be carefull of some of the advice since that isn't what we want as a priority. It's OK to take several heart beats to get to top speed.
A drag racer only wants 1 or 2.

Espen are there pressure probes available that can read the cylinder pressure?

[rookieflyer]

If I'm not mistaken, fuel drag CARS, rails and funnies, were getting into hypereutectic pistons years ago. If a four-stroke motor could benefit from them, certainly a 2-stroke would......

Has this not caught on with drag boats?
If not, I might just start making some....then again - I'll re-think that because that stuff is just soooo hard to machine...

[espen]

Hi !
Yes ,pressure sensors that can measure comustion pressures are available , Toyota uses it on a turbo engine oem...
I will try to find the pressure probes that can be mounted on your spark plug.
An other interesting tech is developed by SAAB ,measuring ions over the spark plug gap ,its possible to get lots of info from the spark plug when using a short duration cd spark and putting 40v across the sparkplug and measure the amps. The creators of megasquirt are planning a ignition system using this.
How about infra read temp sensors reading the underside temp of each piston?
T.rex I agree ...keep it simple stupid......the kiss teory is often the best,whats trapped into the cyl and how its burned there thats what counts.
Espen

[Rickracer]

I just had to say it....:cool:

[Toffen]

Hi,

I may have asked this a while ago. What kind of performance gain in horsepower should I expect from a SVS Intake and the new High Flow Reed Plate? I have a 1999 Promax 300 (with a 2002 powerhead).

Any experiences using MADEFI modified tuner for the Promax 300?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers, Toffen G

[Scream And Fly]

Toffen,

We tested the MAD tuner on our Pro Max 300. Things have bveen hectic here, and I should have that article up soon. If you need any information, just mail me at [email protected].


Greg