Checkmate transom replacement begins...

[B.Mac]

Started yesterday.......decided to do it myself. I want to know for sure whats holden my motor on and I dont want some pretty "camoflauge job" coming apart on me next fall.
I discovered to my relief that the Starflite has a "Boxbeam" stringer system. The original two main stringers are a meager 4" tall X 3/4 thick X 44" long. The stringers were only glassed down on one side (toward hull center). The outer sides of the stringers are not even bonded to the hull! Then 1/2 plywood (glassed topside only ) STAPLED to the stringers. The cavities port and starboard of the stringers are foam filled but amazingly dry. To me it looks as if the foam "swelled" over time and contributed to the poorly bonded stringers tearing loose from the hull as pictured below.

[B.Mac]

An external examination of the transom reinforcement knees and "anti-flex" horozontal rib laminated on top of the knees are all for show..... because when you open her up....you find these impressive knees sitting on top of a hollow plywood floor at least 3"- 4" away from the stringers supporting the floor. This transom is suppose to be rated for 300 H.P.
Maybe they meant 300 OMC horsepower yuk-yuk:D

[B.Mac]

The hull is impressive. Looks like all hand laid fiberglass and nice bright yellow large square balsa coring. The thing seems very, very strong.
Doesn't do much good to have a strong hull and flimsy transom construction though.
I took 1/2 dozen "core samples" with a 1.5" hole saw into the inner transom skin where the pencil lies pointing at a crack between the hull and bottom of the transom.
The glass just falls off when penetrated indicating that the glass is obviously no longer bonding to the firm but water retensive substrate. The core will weep water when stabbed with an awl type tool.......... Looks like tear out time.
I'm going to catalog and detail each step of the job and upload it to the fiberglass forum.

I do have a couple questions?

After I remove the inner skin and wet transom core I will have access to the inside of the outer skin. This outer skin has a diagonal crack in it clear through the gelcoat below the waterline.

My plan is to apply resin and mat to the inside of the crack and then lay some more over the whole interior of the exterior skin before I begin replacing the core. Is polyester resin and mat the correct material? Do I need some light cloth and/ or epoxy resin there? I get mixed up as to the application of polyester -vs- epoxy resins. I believe polyester is cheaper but does not have the "bonding" properties of the epoxy resins?
If I am correct, mat is primarily for "finishing" and cloth is for structural integrity?

2.) How do you bond the bottom of the stringers to the hull? I assume it's "glued" down to fresh ground "pink" glass with epoxy resin mixed with some kind of filler (caposil?) Then you lay bidirectional cloth up and over the whole stringer and out 6" in each direction onto the hull?

3.) When I bond the new 3/4" plywood core to the outer skin, do I apply wet mat to both surfaces then clamp it all together. Repeating the process for the second 3/4" plywood core? Do I use epoxy here or polyester?

4.) When applying bidirectional cloth that has mat integrated on one side, can this be appled directly over raw (resin coated) plywood or do I need apply resin & mat to the plywood first?

5.) Some guys say use only marine plywood, others tell me marine plywood doesn't bond to resin and glass as well as plain old exterior 3/4" CDX?

OK....thats enough question for now... I appreciate you reading this far into my madness :eek:

I'm taking all this to the glass forum so don't flame me yet please? Thanks guys.......

B.MAC:D

[baddjonny]

Now you see what I was talking about no fiberglass on inside of stringers there is a core in my hull you can see it thru the glass little squares mine were nice brite yellow. did you see the 5200 crumbled all over? I didn't know the knees were just glassed to the floor as I did not remove the last 3 feet of the floor to get the wet foam out .Yes I got a kick out of the rusty stapels holding ?? the floor down too. I was lucky all I did was glass both sides of the original stringers after they dried ripped out the foam and reglassed a new floor down. all the original glass was still intact
on my stringers I guess the prior owner didn't run it as hard as you.

baddjonny

[B.Mac]

Floor was solid......luckily a "boxbeam" stringer system.

[B.Mac]

Pretty straight forward so far........

[B.Mac]

Fall right off the transom when cut........no bond at all.
B.MAC

[B.Mac]

One thing they did right at Checkmate......Nice solid, dry core.
The hull and core are seriously solid!!!
B.MAC

[Tom D.]

B.Mac,
My Enchanter has the same box beam and knees as your Starflite. What are the boxes made out of and how are the knees attached to the boxes? Thanks!

Tom

[B.Mac]

The two primary "box beam" stringers in my Starflite were constructed of plywood 3/4" thick 4" tall X 44" long. The tails are glassed directly into the transom. The fronts are glassed into a mini bulkhead under the floor just behind the ski locker. 1/2" plywood decking (underside not glassed) then STAPLED to the stringers. Here's the worst part. You see that massive knee in my picture? It's impressive huh? 1 1/2" wide!!

SITTING ON TOP OF THE PLYWOOD DECK 4" PORT AND STARBOARD AWAY FROM THE STRINGERS!!!!!
THE STRINGERS ARE NOT EVEN ATTATCHED DIRECTLY TO THE KNEES!!!!

ALSO......THE STRINGERS ARE ONLY GLASSES DOWN TO THE HULL ON ONE SIDE!!! THEY ARE GLASSED DOWN TOWARD CENTER HULL.
ON THE PORT AND STARBOARD SIDES THERE IS NO, ZERO, ZIP...
FIBERGLASS!!! JUST.......FOAM.

No wonder my transom can't handle 13" of setback.
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

Off to a great start, I believe they did some strange stuff at the factory. Romm for improvement? oh yea

[Tom D.]

Was there foam inside of the box? Thanks!

Tom

[bulldogdaddy]

looking great so far!i can't believe that that transom didn't fall off with the angle iron that they used in it.what did you use to get the glass in the one pic cleaned up so nice,acetone?

[B.Mac]

Tom...... the interior of the boxbeam design (centerhull) containes the fuel tank, just barley fits in there w/ a shoehorn. Makes it very difficult to access the bilge if your pump dumps without removing the tank. The foam runs port and starboard (outside) of the boxbeam stringers and I believe it adds rigidity and support to the floor and hull bottom (plus flotation or sinkation if it's wet:eek: ) The foam runs the entire length of the hull and there is also a big chunk of it way up in the bow, forward of a small bulkhead. If that stuff gets wet, your rig will never break loose and fly. I'm removing all the foam (at least in the stern for now)and adding water transfer scuppers in the stringers plus buying some insurance. This way it'll just sink if I rip the new transom off in the bay chop @ 70 MPH, 'cause I aint doin' this again. The transom removal is brutal, especially since it's not rotten, just wet. :eek:

Bulldog.......I stuck that angle stock in there when I added the extra setback just for insurance. The nuts were trying to sink into the transom when I cranked on 'em. I was in denial I think at the time that my transom was wet. That glass I just wiped it clean with a rag with laquer thinner. Thats the hull that was underneath the foam when I pulled it out. Nice heavy glass work..
B.MAC:D

[Reese]

It’s that time of the year...project time!!!

Now you've done it…3-4 months of itchy and scratchy. I responded to you “basic 101” thread regarding CDX, epoxy vs. polyester etc…

Best advice I could pass along is to make sure the wood you plan on reusing is totally dry before you encapsulate it. Your project is very similar to mine...wet transom, wet floor and that freaking love affair with the staple gun.

I wish there was a better off the shelf solution to the gas tank issue…I think the way they are located in most boats causes a lot of the moisture problems not to mention the lack of access. Too bad fuel bladders are so expensive…these would allow the fuel tanks to be integrated with the boat structure eliminating much of the design constraints of semi-enclosed aluminum tanks.

I also agree with you that the knee braces should be very stout especially on heavier boats that use more than 10” of setback.

Keep us updated…

[Scott]

I sat my "plastic" tank on a slightly raised platform, hope to eliminate any place for water to get trapped. The tank also sits on a thin "live" rubber pad to help eliminate, or at least reduce, the chance of chaffing.

I replaced my transom from the outside. Once completed I went inside and removed two areas of the inner glass to insure that the new knee braces were actually glassed to the new solid transom and not to just the inner glass layer.

Thanks for taking the time to post your progress pics! I guessed and made some assumptions when I did mine. Your work will help many I'm sure!

Ohhhh the itchy glass not to mention the hard resin soaked hair splinters I pulled daily from my hands. Bad flashbacks!

[Tom D.]

B. Mac,
I know what you mean about the bilge pump. I meant was there foam between the top of the box and the hull or was this area wide open, solid wood box? Thanks!

Tom

[B.Mac]

Tom.....not sure I understand your question. Here's a pic of the construction. The fact that the stringers dont run from bow to stern make it easy (did I just say easy?) for a partial rear component replacement. Here's a pic, maybe that'll help?
B.MAC:D

[baddjonny]

Do yourself a favor cut the whole floor out like I did and get rid of ALL the foam under it as it will fool you into thinking it's dry but between the bottom of the boat and the foam it will be wet trapping moisture just where you don't want it just waiting to get into that nice brite clean balsa core.The hull is plenty strong so is the deck and you can get to do a good job glassing both sides of the stringers. your illistration needs a little update as in my hull the ski locker was a different with than the tank area I still have not looked to see where my knees are mounted as my boat is covered with snow on it here in long island.
Mabye we should move all our pic's into one section it would make it easyer for everybody to see what is going on under the floor of a checkmate starflite.

baddjonny

ps checkout my floor photos at //forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15454

[Tom D.]

B.Mac,
Let me rephrase the question. The box that the knees connect to. Was the box just "L" shaped and hallow underneth between box and hull or was that area also filled with foam? Was it solid wood? Thanks!

Tom

[B.Mac]

The knees in my Starflite sit on top of the plywood floor and are
3"-4" away from the stringers. They are not directly connected or supported by anything but the floor and foam. :eek:

What I mean by "boxbeam" is the stringers are installed in sections or rectangular boxes that terminate and then begin again from stern to bow. My first "box" is as pictured in my caveman tech drawing, 44" long from the stern terminating at a mini bulkhead under the floor which also acts as a divider between the fuel tank area aft and the ski locker.
No foam in the center.......no glass on outside of stringers or underside of floor......just.....foam. I hope I answered your question:D
B.MAC:D

[Tom D.]

B.Mac,
Sorry for being a PITA. It's just that my Enchanter is very simalar to your Starflite. It has the same transom set-up as yours and I may be ripping up the floor to yank out the foam. While I'm at it I may put some strength in the transom.
I was thinking of adding a set of knees along the inside of the present stringers. It would mean narrowing up the gas tank and rearanging some stuff but worth the strength. Have you came up with any ideas yet how your going to set-up your knees and stringers yet?

[B.Mac]

I'm going to follow this design both in the transom & splashwell.
I'm going to cut out the bottom of my existing splashwell and fabricate a new bottom to slip up and in from underneath in order to eliminate the splashwell lip. This will also allow me to increase the height of the knees all the way to the top of the transom, eliminating 6" of unsupported transom lip at the top. Between the higher knees, and integrating the new splashwell bottom into the stringer supports, as well as building my transom thickness up to 2 1/4" possibly 3" all the way across corner to corner. I believe it 'll hold with my abusive WOT bay chop runs.........

With the well cut out, I may not even have to pop the deck to get at everything.......:D :p
Very similar to the pulsares new design.........
See link. http://www.screamandfly.com/screamandflymagazine/features%20checkmate%20tour%202.html
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

Looking forward to following your progress, I also have my checkmate torn apart. Not fun, but it will be done right.

[Tom D.]

B.Mac,
Sounds like a good plan. Keep us posted. Thanks!

Tom

[B.Mac]

Let's get rid of this thing before anything else, just holds water and creates a entry point..........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

More room to work, no need for it, and it's outta here......
Can now replace all without popping deck!!!
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I need to recycle this thing and make two Vectors:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Gonna leave some in place and recut later to right height. Better to take off too little than too much heh? I'll replace the splashwell with 3/4 marine plywood, glass it in top and bottom and integrate the plywood reinforced area (now flat & non-lipped) into the transom by making it a long, tapering horizontal crossbrace (beam to beam) at the transom top. ZERO.....ZERO FLEX.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Tear out the inside fiberglass skin and cut, grind, drill, chew, pry and chisel the old transom out all day...........Thank God for my 1/4" Home Depot $25 Cambell-Housfield rotary tool!!! I used two types of bits. First a grinding type 1/4" bit to get through the skin and the impossible to reach places, then a 1/4" router wood cutting bit to cut the transom out layer by layer, being more careful as I got closer to the outter skin. The router bit doesn't cut glass as easy as wood so you can tell by "feel" when you hit glass...then you work by eye.......when you get to pink, go slow and easy!!!!
FUN FUN FUN :D
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

No more transom or splashwell........Now to start grinding....
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I'm jonesin' for a boat ride......wish I had somethin' 'ta bolt my mota' to.......... Hey wait a minute!!!!!
B.MAC:D

[bulldogdaddy]

does that $25 tool work good? you've been doin alot of work! i want to get rid of my splashwell but i don't know how much setback i would need and if it would be to much!i'm no guru when it comes to this.oh wait a min. i'm no freakin guru at all,lmao.looks like your getting it done:D

[B.Mac]

That tool saved my hiney.........turned a three day tearout into 3/4 day job. An absolute must for tight spots, and awkward/ high labor cutting and gutting. $25 C.H. rotary tool (giant dremel) 1 $7 grinding bit and 1 $10 router bit.........WELL worth the money. You're gonna need some good air to spin it though I'm running two 5.5 CFM's and it doesn't die. Get an electric Ryobi 4" grinder and take the guard off and run bigger discs and backing pads. Wear dust protection (respirator) YOU MUST GET A GOOD RESPIRATOR ($25 Home Depot too) and saftey glasses. I'm glad I decided to do it myself. There aint no way anybody coulda done this job right for the quotes I was gettin' of @ 2K. I'd have got a camo job at best.........

What's 'yer set up now?

B.MAC:D

[bulldogdaddy]

look at my thread under general boating,"it's hear" has all the pics and the motor i'm going to get from barefoot bob. i used to own one of these hulls back in 1980 with a 140 johnny on it no setback 3in jackplate.62mph.would appreciate some input

[sho305]

I used latex gloves to epoxy, worked great(whole box--cheap). Also, here you can get these 3m painting masks for $20 that are throw away. You can put new prefilters in them is all. They come on small, med, and large with a cartridge on each side, thin so they do not stick out and they are grey in color. Best deal I found as they work for a long time when kept in the ziplock bag they come in, and when they get all oversprayed, you toss it. Nice fit too. I use an older one for grinding and primer stuff, a new one for painting. I get them at auto supply or auto paint supply stores.

[B.Leonard]

Make sure you glass onto the existing structure by at least a foot with that woven. Use expoxy so there is no doubt on sticking to the old.

Looks good so far, there's still time to put in a pad :D

-BL

[SCT]

B. Mac,
Did you ever consider popping the deck (by just drilling the rivets out) instead of going thru the back. I think this would have been quicker and better access to the transom.
Also, what are you going to do with the splash well area now that you cut it out?
SCT

[B.Mac]

I carefully considered that before deciding on the spashwell elimination method. I believe it's faster, stronger, and cheaper to integrate the deck into the transom knee system. Look at these pics of the Pulsare's splashwell & transom. I'm heading in this direction using 3/4 marine plywood as a "core" to glass in the new "lipless" splashwell. This "core" will extend beam to beam and also act as a horizontal brace to prevent flexation. I run this boat very, very hard. It's gonna need a 3" transom and an integrated brace to stay together.
The Pulsare has a very narrow "brace". Mine will extend beam to beam narrowing to 4" wide at each end to a full 20" under the splashwell area...........Kinda like a "flying wing" shape.
Check it out........
http://www.screamandfly.com/screamandflymagazine/features%20checkmate%20tour%202.html

B.MAC:D

[sho305]

If I do mine, I think I will do the same. Are you going to raise the splash floor to the transom height, or are you making the transom lower some? My old hull has a 19" transom, I think the new ones are 22"? I would have to raise mine too, not much well would be left in mine:D What is a good transom height to mount a jack to? Keep it at 22"?

I assume(looking at the checkmate pics) you are attaching the top of the knees to the new sturdy floor of your well that will be even with the (motor mounting) transom top, plus some runoff angle. Then they ran some braces from the knees out to the sides as the transom is not flat there. I like it, lots to like in the Checkmate tour there. Then they have a smaller inverted knee from the well down between where motor bolts might be. Very nice.:cool:

[bulldogdaddy]

just a thought,have you thought about closing off the whole splashwell and putting a sunhatch on it?

[bulldogdaddy]

i pulled up my page with my pics in general boating

[B.Mac]

I don't know offhand what the actual stock transom height is but I'm assuming that by the time I get through there will most likely be another 2" in height over the stock lip. This will allow me to get that beam-to-beam horizontal brace I am planning to put in there.....in there, as well as leave a little room for miscalculation for reinstalling the jackplate (the top bolt holes are gonna be too close to the brace if I don't increase the height) Also, I dont anticipate having a whole lotta splashwell left....since I've got 13" of SB, minimal tilt space will be required, but I will need just a little. The splashwell base "core" will be the same component as the beam to beam horizontal brace if I can configure it all correctly. Some of it's gonna have to be kinda off the cuff as I go, but I got a basic concept in mind to "Permafix" a monster transom in case I ever get more cubes:D

BDD......I gave the sundeck thing some thought also, but I can't get carried away, my fiberglass skills are rookie level at best, my budget is tight, not too mention I'm gonna try to shoot gel & flake to match it all back the best I can:eek: I'm gonna need alotta support & info!!!!
B.MAC:D

[Superdave]

My Hydra-Sport with splashwell

[Superdave]

After

[Superdave]

done deal

[B.Mac]

How about coming over my place for a four day Christmas dinner???:eek:
B.MAC:D

[Tom D.]

Nice work Dave!

Tom

[baddjonny]

this is all thats left of the foam in my floor
pics

[baddjonny]

pic 2

[baddjonny]

Man was that a mess

[B.Mac]

I ground the inside of the transom skin down to fresh rough glass.
I laid up two layers of 1.5 oz. matt and a layer of biaxel cloth over that. I just taped up the jackplate bolt holes and the two major stress/ delamination cracks with duct tape on the outside, clamped the cracked edges together and layed up the inside.
Messy but done.......also made myself a nice snug template for my new core. I can also use the template to cut the final colth/ biaxel layer 4" bigger and wrap the inside corners on the final interior skin. Then I'll cut strips of biaxel and reinforce the inside corners.
So far so good.......
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Man am I glad I removed the splashwell:D
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

That'll teach me 'ta keep passin' the Lobster boat........
I've been straffed w/ machine gun fire:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I just got through cutting the first core, grinding it rough and drilling holes every 5" O.C. for more mechanical bonding.
(Kinda like fiberglass nails throughout).

I'll be using three layers of 3/4" marine plywood and possibly a fourth "center board" integrated into the huge knee system for a total mounting transom thickness of 3 1/4"-3 1/2" thick. Lets see this one flex in the rough..:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

Sounds too thick (and heavy).

I wouldn't try to build in fore/aft rigidity with longitudinal layers. It will still flex and be heavy at the same time.

Since you're eliminating the splash-well, I would use two layers of 3/4" with glass in between and then try to build in a more "unitized" structure behind it with the use of more/bigger knees.

Just an idea :rolleyes:

-BL

[B.Mac]

Thicker is not necessarily better. I'll stick with two beam to beam layers of 3/4" plywood then one "centerboard" integrated into the huge knee system and a single horizontal 4"-6" wide horizontal brace at the very top of the new transom.
The horizontal brace will be at a 90 degree angle to the transom top (an integrated corner, kinda like angle stock)
Less weight plus much more strength against flexation from rough water.....

Now tell me how ya gonna keep that V-8 on that big beer can:eek: :p :cool:
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

Putting that V8 on my Lund has already been done... by the factory! Yup, 650lb Yammy 4 strokes on them with 120lb kickers also! Nearly 800lb of outboard hanging off the back.

The advantage with aluminum boats is that they can flex. Glass boats have to be very rigid or the gelcoat will crack and maybe even the underlying glass. This makes them heavy.

For use in normal conditions, the transom is strong enough to hold the V8 as is on my Lund (2 sheets of 3/4" boat panel). When you start talking jumping rollers offshore, it's another story.

All I would have to do to the Lund would be to shift weight forward or better, reduce the setback.

-BL

[sho305]

I found the mask I use here(the medium size): http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GSM9X9889Zgs/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/bgel_NV4S784M8Mbl/gvel_3ZKQHJTG5Wgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

Whew! Around $20 at an auto parts/auto paint shop last time I bought one. I end up using an older one for grinding/sanding because they don't leak like the cheap dust masks; and they are so comfy. They also wipe clean with laquer thinner.

Only $16.95 in GA!: http://www.handsontools.com/store/show_product/?product_id=4215

If you store it in the bag, and keep most of the spray/dust out of your face while using it, they last a long time.

The transom--I put the factory one chunk of 3/4 back in my Bayliner, and I wished I would of put more even though it is only a 90hp boat. I might make another board and put it right over the inside and mat it up. I'll check it in the spring when it has some age on it. It is solid, but I think I can see a slight bow inwards when the motor is hanging dry from the weight on the clamps. No room for knees there unless I have only one 6 gallon tank, I like two. 275lb Force.....:eek:

[B.Mac]

My first lay up was two layers of 1.5 oz. matt that consumed approx. 2/3 Qt. of resin @ 5cc's of MEK. I had plenty of time at the lower ratio of 8 cc's per Qt. I layed them both back to back with no break between. Then I mixed up another 1/2 Qt. at the same mix of 4 cc's per 1/2 Qt. to lay up one layer of 18oz. biaxel cloth. Had time to clean my rollers, brushes, hands and armpits.

Tomorrow I lay up 3 layers of 1.5 oz. matt and clamp my first 3/4" plywood core to the 1st inner skin layup I just described.

I stopped by Lightning Powerboats to get some materials from John (my supplier is closed for the holiday) not only did he GIVE me the stuff free Matt & biaxel but then he let me pick his brain for twenty minutes. Man, I tell you what, this guy builds a transom WOW!! I had no idea!!! Those hulls he's building are
S-O-L-I-D. I'm not doing near his layups and I'm laying this..........

1.) Inner skin .....Two 1.5 oz matt and one 18 oz. biaxel.
Let cure and scuff
2.) Three layers of 1.5 oz. matt then add first pre-resined then wetted 3/4" plywood core and clamp. Let cure and scuff
3.) Over 1st core......Two layers of 1.5 oz. matt, one layer of 18 oz. biaxel and extend the cloth 4" onto the hull. Another two layers of 1.5 oz. matt followed by another layer of 18 oz. biaxel and extend 8" onto hull. Let cure and scuff.
4.) Three more layers of 1.5 oz. matt then apply second pre-resined then wetted core over 1st core. Clamp and Screw w/ temporary 1 1/2" deck screws. Let cure, remove screws and scuff.
5.) Two more 1.5 oz. matts followed by another single 18 oz biaxel layed 12" onto hull. Two more 1.5 oz. matts and another single 18 oz. biaxel cloth laid 16" onto hull.
Let cure and scuff.
Then I begin the integrated stringer, giant knees, and additional transom layer for one piece installation.

This is about half what John's got in them Lightning hulls. I couldn't believe it until he showed me three different hulls in various stages of layup. UN- REAL.
Just call me "Itchy" MAC
B.MAC

[Superdave]

Handy Info (http://www.fiberglast.com/charts/catalyst.php?session=ca7623b8481e6963bb7b104c340b8692)

[B.Mac]

3/4 " marine plywood.....fits like a glove beam to beam...
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

We ain't taken no mo chances.......it'll stick! The plywood outside the hull is to make sure I got a solid surface to clamp against.
Like my homemade clamps??
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Didn't have to pop the top!!!
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Notice wedges to tighten everything snug and tight.......
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

B.mac, you are the man, I was having lots of trouble trying to figure out how to clamp the new transom to the outter fiberglass layer with out brilling a bunch of holes. GREAT IDEA.

[B.Mac]

C'mon......bang up I got boatin' ta do.........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Only 10 more layers of matt two more cores and five layers of 18 oz. biaxel to go:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Make sure ya use 3/4" plywood and make a bunch of short wedges to slip into the gap and beat 'em in. The clamps will wanna twist so dont make the slot more than 3" deeper than you need. The width of the slot is 3".
B.MAC:D

[FCnLa]

Originally posted by B.Mac
Only 10 more layers of matt two more cores and five layers of 18 oz. biaxel to go:eek:
B.MAC:D

:D What are you going to hang on it? A gang of V6 Merc's?:D

Looks great! Are you doing away with the spash well completely? Yea, I like the clamps. You are going to have it ready for this weekend right?

Since you are getting so good at this, why don't you fix a Viper I am fixing to buy. It only needs a core, a floor, seat boxes, dash reinforcement, and a transom. Think you can get to it next week??? :eek: ;) :D

p:cool:

[B.Mac]

It aint the power as much as the water......but I hope ta hang a 280 on her next year. I run 70 now in two foot chops in Sarasota Bay w/ 13" of S.B. That's what happened to the last transom:eek:

I'm eliminating the splashwell lip by simply constructing a 90 degree corner at the top of where the lip used to be. Then running up and under what's left of the splashwell cutout.
The new well will be about 1/2 as deep as original and water will run right off. Similar to the Pulsare but stronger.
I'm integrating some monster knees that will extend all the way up to the bottom of the new splashwell base core (3/4" marine plywood) then glass it into the existing well with lottsa biaxel bottom and topside. This will integrate the deck, knees, stringers and transom. Then I gotta learn how 'ta gelcoat black metalflake
:eek:

Am looking at having a 3" Aluminum or Stainless tube for a ski pylon fabricated to slip down through the new splashwell core down into a hull base mount while I'm in there. No more ski hooks through the transom below the water line.

Viper no problem.......I LOVE FIBERGLASS :p
Let's see here........fer you FCnLa......a half price special....$10K
Anybody that does this for a living cannot charge too much......
it's just not possible:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

You've been busy :D

I'll never forget when I first saw those cracks, I knew it would end up like this but I wasn't gonna say a word. Especially with the Mrs standing there :p

I wonder if you could just clamp it with decking screws (3") and just fill the holes later with resin. Might hold it tighter.

-BL

[B.Mac]

I don't want to compromise the new layup on the interior of the old transom skin. 2 layers of matt and one 18oz. biaxel. Don't want no wata' in da transom no mo'. You got that space shuttle rigged yet?
B.MAC:D

What cracks?;) :p :rolleyes:

I told the wifey ohhhh nooooo don't worry 'bout them little 'ol cracks. I just gotta change the transom....:p
Kinda like tires on a car.....normal......totally normal :eek:
Bet Kathryn knows all them tricks heh Bruce?
I think Angela does too, just lets me believe she doesn't:D

[B.Mac]

But progress continues.......
Today I started where I left off yesterday.
Started with removing clamps, grinding new core and hull for next layup.First caposil and poly mix in all voids around first transom core. Layed up 1.5 oz. matt then 18 oz. biaxel cloth layed up the hull 4" then another 1.5 oz. matt and another 18 oz. cloth layed up the hull 8". Then three layers of 1.5 oz. matt followed by second core installed....clamped tight AND screwed to first core.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

2" solid so far with another core to go.....
My third core will not be beam to beam but center hull, carried by the monster knees...
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

After I get this center core and all the glass layed up, here it is dry.........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Glad its gone.....I took about 2/3 off the depth
With the lip gone, I can really overbuild that outside corner with roven for some real strength.......Not to mention huge knees integrating the hull, transom, wellbase and deck. It oughta stay put.....
Check it out...........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Aint no standin' water in there!!!
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Who ever got me started in boating anyway........
sheeeesh......:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

I never thought I'd love to see fresh black thingys on my boat :D

-BL

[B.Leonard]

About 4.5 feet from bottom of V to deck.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Sea Rays are top notch. Mid to late eighties hulls were all plywood and glass, tons of glass! Check out the Roven Woven all over that transom :D

-BL

[B.Leonard]

LOL!

What a drop! Gotta watch your step! :)

-BL

[B.Leonard]

B.Mac, your transom will be about as thick as a 30' Cabin Cruiser transom! :D

-BL

[Alan Power]

It's not much use to you now I think, but did you think of putting a balsa core in there between the ply-wood. Would be a fraction of the weight and prob just as stiff when finished. Still a very nice job youre doing none the less, kinda laughs in the face of my 1.5" transom.

Also what you got under your floor, stringer wise I mean, & how thick is your hull laminate? Been thinking of putting another pair of stringers under there in mine, which is a bit of a pain in the ass because Ive just put the floor back down!
I've just finnished a new transom job in mine.

[sho305]

I read this thing saying to put more wood in, and not more mat as it was heavier and the wood was stronger. I know mat is strong yes, is that hogwash? This was about a transom or floor, and they said to just cloth the outside and into adjoining parts, not bother with it between the wood only enough to waterproof the layers of wood? Of course, they might not be planning on a 400hp OB like B Mac:eek: :D :D

[B.Mac]

I've taken all the contributed information, and also went over to Lightning Powerboats and picked John's brain............
What I'll end up with is a Frankentransom.
I lay threelayers of matt between each core
Two matts and two 18 oz. biaxels over each core feathered up onto the hull....... X three cores
HUGE KNEES
This is my last glass repair.....:eek: Unless I hit somethin'
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

B.Mac
I need to make sure I have this right.
You have 3/4 plywood- biaxle-mat-mat-biaxle- 3/4 plywood

What did you have between the outter skin and the first peice of 3/4?

[B.Mac]

Outer Skin
2 X Matt
1 X Biaxel
Cure/ scuff
3 X Matt
install pre-soaked then re-wetted core
clamp & brace
Cure & scuff
fill in all voids around new core w caposil/resin mix (peanut butter)
2 X Matt (only one needed)
1 X Biaxel 4" larger than transom pattern/ lay extra 4" on hull

(this whole next step is overkill you can omit this)
2 X Matt
1 X Biaxel 8" larger than transom pattern/ lay extra 8" on hull
Cure & scuff

Start here again:
3 X Matt
install pre-soaked then re-wetted core
clamp/ brace/ screw for added pull (screws come out after cure)
fill in voids around new core w caposil/ resin mix
2 X Matt
1 X Biaxel 12" larger than pattern/ lay extra 12" on hull

(this step is overkill too)
2 X Matt
1 X Biaxel 16" larger than pattern/ lay extra 16" on hull
To be continued with final center core for a total of three inches at the jackplate boltholes.......(see pic below of dryrun center)

Remember I run 70 in very ruff water w/ 13" of setback on a jackplate. This is overkill BUT permanant!!!
B.MAC:D

[baddjonny]

Just took a ruler to my 88 starflite transom 2-7/8" I guess that should be plenty thick it all seems solid as you know from my pic's the floor foam was not. BMAC you started this whole horror show when I got my starflite last summer and told me to check the front compartment for wet foam. It's been downhill since then for both of us .LOL
the old story ignorance is bliss.
MR. DOOM and GLOOM
baddjonny

[sho305]

I have to agree with you; there will be nobody asking where the beef is if I redo a transom on something that might see a big motor. Digging the slop out of one just once convinces you real fast.

When I did the Bayliner, I figured 85 was the max hp as I think you might blow the stringers out with more, and I was not going there(1x4 on each side!, and I doubled them). There was hardly any glass in the center of the old transom wood at all, and only chopper gun of about 1/8" on the edges. I left the edge there for my new wood, then put mat and roughly 3 layers of cloth on the inside over it all. I put 3 layers about 4" wide over the seams I cut and tapered into the skin on the outside that I cut out. So I figured it to be easily better than new, but I still am not sure I shouldn't glass another board inside that pos. Depends on how long I keep it I guess. Likely the transom will outlive the boat anyway.

[B.Mac]

I'll tell ya what.....I'll do your floor if you do my transom:eek:
By the way.....I don't think I have to tell you this but I will anyway...Don't put foam back in.....get it appraised and get full value insurance. If it sinks oh well.....Gotta get a new boat...
what a bummer....:D PS I'm pretty sure foam is not required by C.G. for 20'+ F.Y.I. :cool:
B.MAC:D

Sho305....

You could always add a center board and knees to what ya got without too much pain.... Better a little work now than a transom later ....no?
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

B Mac, I think so. It has a knee on one side, but I would have to give up one of my two 6 gallon tanks for another. There is no other place for a tank at all. I am thinking real hard about just glassing in another 3/4 peice fit between the stringer across to the knee, up to the splashwell. It would be easy to do, just longer bolts for the motor maybe. :)

[B.Mac]

You would be surprised how much strength you can get out of one 4"-6" wide X 3/4" horizontal brace at the top of the transom from beam to beam.... Oh....I'm doin that too.....:eek:
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

Thanks For the info B.mac
I am also over building the transom. I do not want to do this again.

[sho305]

My Checkmate has this 2x4 on end thing across in there like that. I could in this Bayliner, but the knee on the one side goes all the way up next to the splashwell, but ties into the well at the front of the well. So I cant get to that side. Maybe going to the knee would be ok though, and all the way on the other side, is a small floatation box in the corner. Maybe I can make it from the top of the stringers (across like that) up to the splashwell is only maybe 10" wide; from knee to the box about 3'. That should stiffen it up.

175Checkmate, how you coming? Winter about 1/3 gone! You figure out how many sheets of wood you need yet?:D Just kidding!;) I want to pull mine home and rip it up! Getting parts for this project truck now, will be out of here soon. I just don't want to loose that damn open bow, and nothing else has it.:(

[Wile E. Coyote]

Looks like youre doing an excellent job! Now I know who to tap for my sterling resto project :D ;)

[gaineso]

I think this entire thread needs to be archived and marked for easy reference. Any body needs advice on a transom, most questions are answered here and the ones that aren't have references and links.

Bobby,you are obviously doing a great job and we're all looking forward to finding out how it ends up. Enjoying your adventures.

[B.Mac]

Hey Gainso......You been callin' me Bobby fer a long time. I don't mind.....I've been called much worse:D I'm Brian, B, B.MAC....
or Bobby if you like:D ;) :p
I appreciate your support !!! Call me whatever ya like:D
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

But it stinks in here........
Today's progress.........Last core ...HA!!!!!
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

My wife actually likes this boat......She didn't like 80+ in the Vector in Bay chop:eek:
Gettin closer...........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

at the end of the tunnel!!! ........uh...........V-hull
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

It could stand for Black, Mercury powered And Cracked LOL! :D

;) ;)

-BL

[B.Mac]

You got some black in your viens after all don't ya?
Mercruiser outdrive heh?

When ya gonna hang that V-8 on the Lobster boat?
You better get a drop down bolster seat er' somethin' first......oh yea.....and a lifeline for you .......and one for the V-8 :eek:
C'mon I'll run ya.......... :cool:
B.MAC:D

[VectorPat]

You forgot the Hotfoot:D :eek:

[sho305]

About the year 2150, somebody will be digging around and pull up B Mac's transom, "What the hell is this?":D :D :D :cool: :cool: :cool:

You will be able to hoist a car up with it if you get tired of the boat some day! Awesome work there:cool:

[175checkmate]

SHO, Just about ready for the transom install. Prep work (griding) is done. I am glad I waited. Brian is the man. I am going to go in the same direction. It may no be light, but its a checkmate. They don't like to be light.

Waiting now for the temps to get back in the 60's.

[B.Mac]

I want to take advantage of an integrated design. Automobile manufacturers realized this benifit with unibody construction.
Well here we have a uni-stringer/knee/wellbase & deck integration. Suggestions? Comments?
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Can you say.....STRONG!!!!?????
B.MAC:D

[baddjonny]

I'm a little worried that tying the deck to the transom might cause stress cracks I think I would let the deck work seperatly from the transom might be too stiff .Some stuff in the hull has to move in seperate from others.

Two cents
jon b

[Reese]

The design looks fine…the only thing I would change is to make the lower brace (the one next to the stringer) at tall as possible. The forces from the engine will concentrate at or near the dog-leg portion of the lower piece (which looks to be about 3-3 ½” tall), you may also want to try and radius the cut at the intersection.

I’m probably using more static setback on my boat (15 ½”), and found that a taller brace really works better. The back end of your brace with the big hole if fine.

My knee brace/setback actually runs through the transom (the transom is false...and is only 3/4" thick ply) but you get the idea.

Good luck with the rest of the project...

[B.Mac]

badjohnny.....check this out...... http://www.screamandfly.com/screamandflymagazine/features%20checkmate%20tour%202.html
2nd and 4th picture of red Pulsare
Same design concept/ same cored deck....... My Starflite already has a few spider cracks in the deck/ splashwell area from highspeed choppy water runs but nothing that concerns me. I may beef up the underside of the welldeck just for insurance though ....
Thanks John.....

Reese...........The stringer IS the brace.
It's all one long piece of 3/4" plywood transitioning from a stringer into a knee as it approaches the transom.

The stringer portion is 4" tall X 3/4" thick so I will scab another stringer right along the outside of the modular stringer/ knee in order to beef up the primary stringer, add an additional 3/4" area to bond to the hull, and also carry the floor all the way back to the transom on the outsides of both knees. This should also beef up the dog leg when covered with biaxel? I don't quite understand "radius the cut at the intersection" Intersection of what? Thanks Reese

Ya know what though I better cut a scupper in there somewhere huh? Is that what your talkin' about Reese?

[Reese]

It looks like a stringer right next to what you built (the white brace) but its actually floor in the background...

Either way I would definitely double up on you design, in other words make 4 of those knee braces (the white ones) and laminate two together...that would give you two 1 1/2" thick braces.

Yes on the scupper...

[B.Leonard]

Reese is right, no sharp corners like you did on that knee brace (the corner where the line is as it transitions to the stringer). If you already cut 'em, just glass that corner heavy.

But 3/4" thick is PLENTY because the stress is forward/aft no side to side. 3/4" glassed is way thick enough/ with that extra piece in the middle on the transom making it 3" thick you're good to go!

You're not runnin drugs in this thing are you? :D No need to stop a .308 round from a customs boat LOL!

;) ;) ;)

-BL

[B.Mac]

Grinding and fabrication day.
I feel like my nostrils are plugged with fiberglass:eek:

Here's the stringer/ knee brace/ well core modular unit
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

How we lookin boys, I radiused the doglegs, doubled the stringers, and added some scuppers........
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

Looking good and moving along nice.

[B.Leonard]

Glass it in!

-BL

[sho305]

I like that! Sweet.

[Reese]

Won't add or change anything...looks good to go.

Just make sure you do a good job of sealing all that fine work with a couple of coats of laminating polyester resin (I usually delute the first 2-3 coats with styrene monomer).

Sealing the edges of the ply is probably the most critical and should be done before you put on your first layer of glass.

It's comming along nicely...

[175checkmate]

Where can I find some styrene monomer. Is this like asatone or thiner?

[Reese]

Styrene monomer is not the same thing as Acetone. You can find styrene at most of the same places you buy your polyester laminating resin. I would try a local marine repair shop or any place that sells fiberglass supplies.

I used to dilute polyester with MEK acetone (similar to regular acetone but with a slower evaporation rate) until I found out that polyester manufacturers only recommend using styrene.

It has something to do with the evaporation of the acetone that supposedly leaves small voids and crystal formation…whatever that means.

If you still can’t find it locally check some on line suppliers…there are lots of them.

[B.Mac]

Is specifically formulated for reducing/ thinning polyester.
I was considering using acetone myself to thin the resin for sealing since it too, is an effective thinner/ reducer. But after what Reese said, it makes sense and I'll spend the extra $5 and not take any chances on the unknowns of chemical incompatibility.
It's a stock item at any fiberglass supplier and is not expensive.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

That's what I was last night trying to lay matt on all these odd shaped components. I was being impatient and tried to wrap both sides and the edges at once........ended up ripping everything off before it banged off, had glass everywhere, on my feet, in my hair, in my armpits........this is a drag....

After sleeping on it.....I realized (duh) I'm gonna' have to do one side of each component, let it bang off, trim with a grinder, flip it and do the other side. Wasted the whole evening. Sure did get those components sealed good though.:eek:
Live & learn..........
B.MAC:D

[Alan Power]

It may lay on easier if you round all the edges or split some hose in two and stick it to the edges to laminate over. Will stop the glass lifting some.
Or vac bag with a hoover.

[175checkmate]

Looking good. I bought a bit for the roto zip that rounds the edges, seems to help with laying down the glass.

[B.Mac]

It's absolutely impossible for anyone to make a living doing fiberglass repair unless they get paid hourly........
I was quoted @ 2k for this transom.......
ain't no way man........not me........

Latest progress.......glassing all components with matt.
One side at a time, cure, grind, scuff & flip.........
Then do it all again.........
BRUTAL.....:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Will it ever end?
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Thank you Jesus!!!
I don't think this one will flex:D
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

Hey, you didn't think they would make you a transom that would withstand a nuclear warhead like yours for $2k did you???:D :cool: Now you got the best!

[B.Leonard]

How much rebar did you use in there? ;) ;) ;)

That looks impressive! Great job B.Mac!

-BL

[B.Mac]

My glass supplier gave me this stuff called polyester bonding putty to use as adhesive for the stringers, splashwell, knees, etc.
I hope this is the right stuff.......sure seems awful thick to adhere well. Oh well......I guess we'll see in the morning. I bonded two scraps together as well as the splashwell base to the new transom. I'm gonna hold off on the rest 'till I know for sure it's strong on my test pieces.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I think the worst is behind me now.......I hope:eek:
B.MAC:D

[Tom D.]

Looking good Bmac. Looking good!!! You could mount twins!!!!:D :cool:

Tom

[175checkmate]

Man, looks great. You are cooking. I don't think you will have anymore trouble back there.

[baddjonny]

If i remember your photos rite your stringers are busted almost to the bow want to see MORE GRINDING itch itch. at least your doing it in the winter when I did mine it was so hot even with half the amount of hardener it was kicken in 5 min. I can still see my sweat drops locked forever in my fiberglass. good job so far keep up the good work.

jon b

[B.Mac]

But I can access the rest of the damage through the ski locker without tearing up the floor but I'll only be able to glass down the interior side of the stringers (like factory installed). The foam is dry (surprisingly) so I'll just shove some schmutz (cabosil) or bonding putty under the stringers, put a couple hundred pounds on the floor over each stringer then glass 'em down w/ 1708 biaxel.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Here's the rest of the repair, at least I can access it through the ski locker.........
Here's the damage......Stringers are solid but the glass broke loose from hull.......I believe the flotation foam swells over time, lifting the floor and breaking the glass loose even when it's dry.
This is a pic of starboard aft in ski locker. Notice horizontal split in glass down the middle of the stringer:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Stringer's solid here to........port foredeck in ski locker. It stops just ahead of the port seat (reachable:D ). Notice how the glass lifted from the hull here........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

70 MPH in 2'-3' Bay Chop w/ 13" of setback.......
Now all I need is some real Merc power!!! 260/280:D
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

?????????????/

[B.Mac]

Postin' my guru post!!!! 21 MOS.!!!
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

Are you STILL waiting for that 38 pitch prop for that thing??? Dang they are slow:D

[B.Leonard]

90 mph before installing the big gun, w/ 2" of setback.

Now all I need is some well meaning Merc freak from Sarasota to try it out on :D

;) ;) ;)


-BL

[baddjonny]

Don't be fooled most of the foam was dry to the touch on the top BUT on the bottom where it lays against the glass covering the core mine was soaked. take a second and third look as the dampness was really doing a job on the other side of the stringers as there completly bare wood. and were starting to get ready to delam . I just caufgt it in itme as it was a hot summer and they dried out fine. it's going to be really tough to lay under the deck to grind and glass the front inside the ski locker. Make sure you drill drains at the very front of the locker as mine was trapping water up front.

jon b

[B.Mac]

I think it may have gotten wet at one time but somehow dried out because the foam I took out of the rear was bone dry but swollen.......I've also taken 1/2 dozen deep core samples of foam especially at the bow.......all dry as a bone BUT swollen. I bought the boat in the fall from Minnesota, I'll bet they put her away with wet foam one season and the cold expanded the icey foam and blew the stringers off!!! Then when I got it I ran it hard in Bay Chop until I realized my transom was flexin'........
I drove all the way to Minnesota for this boat from Florida.
Hi my name is B.Mac and I got a problem.........Boats
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Stringers & knees were installed today and bonded to the hull with bonding putty. I used a few screws here and there to hold everything in place, Then weighted each stringer with @100#.

Since I couldn't glass down the stringers 'till the bonding putty kicks I spent the afternoon laying up the exterior transom...
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Since I have an integrated well base tied to the transom, knees & stringers now, I wonder if I could bolt down a ski pylon reciever right to the top of the wellbase, the pylon will be @ 4' tall and removable with two pinned counter braces to each rear corner of the wellbase/ transom top?
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Here's the 3/4" marine plywood wellbase, knees & stringer system.........
B.MAC

[sho305]

Sure looks like it would. Maybe if you lay some extra mat and/or a braket under there for it?

[B.Leonard]

Probably not a problem depending on how big the base is. It might cause hair-line cracks in the gel coat around the mounting area if the base isn't big enough.

What are your plans for refinishing the transom?

-BL

[B.Mac]

Well I'm quite aways away from a finish yet but I'm planning on air filing the transom until its perfectly flat......D.A.ing the splashwell and hand sanding the transitions, using some nuke proof fairing putty 'till I get it all perfect..........then mixing black gelcoat with a special 50/50 reducer/ leveler and no wax and laying down about 5-6 nice heavy coats. (I'm gonna practice on something first) My plan is to shoot clear reduced gelcoat with just a hint of silver metal flake (as original as I can get) then about 4-5 more coats of diluted clear with wax (sand aid) in the final heavy coat. I realize I'm gonna have to sand the snot out of it then wheel it with compound but I want it to look original.

One nice thing is that I haven't come out of the splashwell with my grinding so whatever sins I commit will end up being confined to the splashwell/ transom areas, both pretty well concealed by rigging, swim decks, and a polished aluminum 1/4" plate extending 6" up the splashwell and under the jackplate for extra bracing of that 90* corner at the transom/ splashwell junction.

I've dimantled my Panther scissor jack (I'm glad I did) to service the jacking motor only to find bent aluminum 3/8" diameter hinge pins throughout the whole scissor mechanism, causing it to bind when raising under WOT conditions. I may have to replace the pins w/ ss pins if I can find them or with SS grade 5 bolts & nylocks. Is stainless and aluminum compatible in salt?
Hate to get hit in the back 'o the head with a 2.5 Merc @ 70 MPH:eek:
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

When I did mine, I used Duroglass(polyester based) filler. Then gound it with a disker some, then used a hog(8" round greared head DA looking thing) with 36 and then 80 grit to get it straight. With lots of touchy feely and a couple of re-muds. Then I coated it with the epoxy I was using for the transom twice...sanded, then painted it. I used VC epoxy on this, but it looks great.:)

The inline or airfile has its place, but consider a hog. It is the cats a$$ for getting things flat fast.:cool:

IR328B or similiar http://www.irtools.com/auto/prod/5finish/5finish.htm Kinda pricey if you don't use it much though.

or http://www.mytoolstore.com/viking/vsan02.html

Awesome on drywall mud too:D :D Need a vacuum bad!

[175checkmate]

Brain, outstanding job. You are in the wrong line of work.

[B.Leonard]

Originally posted by 175checkmate
....outstanding job. You are in the wrong line of work.

LOL!! Oh man that's funny!!! Just kidding 175, if you only knew, he's definitly in the right line of work, and it's much harder than a little glass work and polishing :D :D

Using gelcoat for the finish would probably make a better transition into the rest of the boat when polished rather than paint.

The SS bolt idea will work. You'll just need to put at least 2 zincs on the transom next to the jack (one on each side), 2 on the motor side of the jack and maybe a couple on the motor. They only work real good when there is a lot of them in the area you're worried about having galvanic corrosion.

-BL

[Superdave]

if you finish and prime the gel may not stick. You need at least 80 grit finish for the gel to stik. Also, if you put flakes in the clear, you need to put more clear on top of it with no flake so you won't sand through to the flakes when you're trying to smooth it.
Dave

[sho305]

My VC Epoxy boat paint & the West Sys said to use 80 grit, wash the heck out of it and put it right on bare, or use some special epoxy primer if needed. This stuff was so thick it filled it in real well, and nothing showed hardly. Not much wet sanding even. I was very happy with it. Make sure you research what you are going to do...so you can do it once:)

[B.Mac]

No offense to any glass guys but you couldn't pay me $100k per year to do this every day.....Thanks for your compliment Checkmate 175....:D
I promise I wouldn't even attempt this without you S&F guys to come runnin' to if I mess somethin' up......or better yet......before I mess somethin' up:eek:

Bruce....That galvanic corrosion would take place in a couple hours of saltwater per week then rinsed? My scissors jack is cast aluminum with brass bushings in the holes....do these metals react adversly with SS? PS that story about the old man and the trainee had me rollin'!!!!:D :p :eek:

Super dave....Am I doin somethin' wrong? My plan is to ....
Final sand with @ 180 grit...for bite.......
1.) reduce the gelcoat (black) to paint consistancy with a product specifically formulated for reducing gelcoat to 50/50 mix. It flows more like heavy enamal with some orange peel.
2.) spray 3-4 coats back to back as each coat bangs up (no wax)
3.) spray 1 coat of clear gel with silver flake (sparse)
4.) spray 4-5 coats of clear only over flake
5.) spray final 2-3 coats with "sand aid" (wax)
Sand, sand, sand, wetsand, buff with compound & wax????
Can you spray multiple coats of waxed gel if you get the next coat before it bangs off?

I built custom homes (carpentry) before going into ministry full time five years ago.......

Here's my work now.....:D Christ Centered D&A Recovery
I'm an ex alky/ junkie myself delivered in 1991 after over five years of secular rehabs.....didn't work for me...
Christ did though...................................for good..........
no one day at a time stuff for me..............
Here's some of the guys......:D
There's about 80 guys in our residential program.......
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

Wow B.Mac, that is so cool! Now we know what kind of boat Jesus would drive! (a fast one!) Glad you turned it around to do such great things. I'd pat you on the back any day!

Most of the metal flakes I have seen have a tinted but transparent color over/in the flake to color it, as well as a solid base color under. Of course in the mold it's backwards. Maybe they did put the flake on top in yours, don't know. When I did cars I used to spray test panels with no catylist, and tint/spray until it was right. Then dump in the hardener and go! That worked great, as you knew what you had then....as long as you did not run out of mix. So I would put something close(color) on there first, then I was set to go for easy covering.;)

I am not well versed in gelcoat, but I think you only use wax on the last coat??? Guys??? It is to make it dry hard with no goo, but the goo works good for recoats. Also, make sure you schedule your time to get it all on there within the time limits.

[B.Mac]

He can walk on water......:D :D ;)
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

LOL:D Like I should have seen that one coming!!!:D I'm tired! Just ran the snowblower for the first time and cleaned 8" out of the driveway, then had to hacksaw the frame mount bolts off the front of a project truck by hand....could not get a powertool in the rubber mounts....hate that! Felt like a 40mph wind out there, snow all day, but that handsaw has a funny way of warming you up quick ya know:) 8pm, time for dinner:rolleyes: Michigan...

[Superdave]

If you go much finer than 100 grit the gel will not stick. You need major "tooth" for it to stick to. Gel is much thicker than paint and will cover any small scratches. You will end up with at least a mil thickness. Just a tip. When you go from the clear with flake in it to the straight clear. Take time to make sure you clean the gun and hose good or you will have some flakes in the top coat of clear. When you start sanding it to finish, the flakes will "silver" when you sand them. Looks like you're going to end up with a VERY GOOD end result.
Dave

[B.Mac]

When I get ready to spray gel the 80 grit scratches will cover OK?
My understanding is gel wont "flow" well, so what the painted surface looks like is what I get? I'm diluting the gelcoat to make it sprayable from a paint gun. I believe with styrene monomer if I'm not mistaken. Just say the word and 80 grit it is...........

Here's the first grind......still gotta layup one more 1.5 oz. matt then airfile it all straight.........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I was really frustrated trying to layup 1708 biaxel strips by myself overhead, vertical, and both sides of the stringers......
Ya gotta be an octapus man.....If I had one short arm growing outta my forehead it would have been a breeze.........
Now after bathing in acetone again I just might get that arm growing outta my head:eek:

[B.Mac]

Why I hate fiberglass.........

1.) Instead of trying to stay relatively resin free, like I always do, I need to just take a brush right from the start and glob two armpits full of activated resin in my armpits and get it over with....

[B.Mac]

But she'll be strong!!!!! I'll clean it up with a grinder after it all bangs off........

[sho305]

That sure looks nice in there!!

If gel is anything like the vc epoxy I used, yes it will cover 80 easy. It was like spraying good heavy catylized primer. I DAed with 80 per instructions, and I think sprayed 3 coats. The first covered it. I saw a couple of tiny marks after dry that disappeared upon wetsanding(Likely from 24 grit). This stuff laid out some, I guess gel does not. I have seen fresh sprayed gel with huge peel, but not sure the guy knew what he was doing. I wonder about sanding between any of the coats also to knock it down.

[B.Leonard]

You may just get that short arm out of your forehead in a couple years after breathing all those fumes and having all that resin on your skin! :eek:

Man that thing looks SOLID! Great job in the amount of time. You've really knocked it out. I'm impressed!

-BL

[175checkmate]

Looks great, what did you use to fill the edge's where the knees meet the transom? How many layers of glass did you use on everything?

[B.Mac]

One of my motivations is to keep posting progress. I really did not feel like doing any grinding and glass work today....

Gus....the transom has mega glass in it.....
The structural components/ knees/ stringers/ wellbase all have one layer of 1.5 oz matt. Then bonded with "Arjay" medium polyester bonding putty and faired out to smooth the transitions from 90* to curved. Then glassed together every corner & joint with one layer of 1708 biaxel cloth. I came outta that hole with my eyes crossed from fumes & I felt like I'd been tarred & feathered:eek: Now I got a little more grinding and re-sealing to clean it up and I can reinstall my floor WITHOUT foam.

Then it's on to finishing the wellbase/ deck transition and getting everything ready for my first attempt at gelcoat:eek:

Having 1/4" polished aluminum plate made up for under my machine shop repaired/ reinforced Panther Jackplate. Also found a used one for parts/ bushings/ clevis pins/ and an extra lift motor for if (when) I burn this one up.

I truly, truly hate fiberglass. Really I do.
But .........it makes a good boat:D
B.MAC:D

Question of the day????????????????:D :D ;)

[B.Leonard]

Very appropriate sticker for a V6 powered Vector!

-BL

[Talon2.5]

well i just spent my morning reading 12 pages of itchy transom work, that bad boy looks like you can go ahead and hang a V-8 on it and go blast through 5 footers at WOT :D

nice job bmac!!

[B.Mac]

Did I earn my bones yet?:D ;)
Ya might wanna wait 'till ya see the gelcoat before ya answer dat one........:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I lucked out ..........jrpromax sent it to me for beer money:D
He must have ruined his BVD's when he did this @ 75 MPH.......:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I had my mounting (hullside) plate machined with aluminum inserts welded into the bolt pattern to correct the oblong/ egg shaped mounting holes. I'll use my mounting plate & jr's unit and end up with a parts unit as well:D ........Thanks jr.....
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

This is what I'll end up with again.....a full 13" of setback PLUS about another 4" for the built in transom notch for a total of 19"-20" from the pad. Now if only somebody'd donate a nice fresh 280 I might be able hit 80 and still be the slowest poke on S&F:eek:
B.MAC:D

[Rickracer]

But lookin at the donor plate, what kinda boat was that on? You really think that's the best choice for an aircraft carrier in bay chop? Especially one that has precious cargo aboard a lot of the time? Was the boat that parts plate came off of heavier or more over powered than yours? Why did it break? There must be some reason you don't see that type of plate on many offshore boats. I don't wanna see you get hurt. :rolleyes:

[B.Mac]

jrpromax had a solid spacer similar to mine in the pic above but with the spacer plate mounted on the hull FIRST and then the jack. There was not enough support behind the jack's mounting plate installed that way, causing it to break.

It's an easy mistake to make because I did the exact same thing in my original rigging because I wanted the jack closer to the weight of the motor. After I got all done rigging I did'nt like the way it was supported so I switched it around so the jack bolted up first THEN the solid extension and it has plenty of forward/ rearward support that way. The Panther jack & transom are suppose to be rated for 300 HP from the factory, only without the extra 5" solid setback. I've run the snot outta this set up and if it was gonna break it would have for sure done it.

I NEVER run with my kids at more than 40-45 MPH in smooth water. But when they're not with me.....I let that baby rip the Bay chop up...... With all the setback it kinda floats like my Vector @ 70, only I don't have to be scared of the chop at all, the 'Mate blows right through it all no problem......
Just need a few more ponies........
Good point Rick .......well taken.. ;)
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

That is the only Panther plate I have ever seen.

5" extra setback is not just a few extra washers. That is a good bit more leverage on that Panther plate. Also, you run your boat much harder than average. If you havn't exceeded the plate I would say for sure you don't have much of a safety margin when you're runnin all out.

Also a scissor type jack is likely to fail more abruptly and show fewer signs of fatigue before failure compared to a plate built on thick angle aluminum that runs the height of the plate.

I'd definitly keep an eye out for a better plate in the mean time.

-BL

[Rickracer]

Never having boated in the Bay, I don't know what it's like, but the transom sure isn't going to absorb any of the shock now. :eek: ;) :cool:

[Reese]

Let’s assume the panther is rated for a 300 hp mota.

Typical 300 weighs about 500 lbs right?, and the panther has an 8” setback, therefore:
8/12 x 500 + 500 = 833 lbs of force.

Typical 2.4 200 weights about 350 lbs and with the additional 5” it equals:
13/12 x 350 + 350 = 729 lbs of force.

If all the above is accurate you should be fine…on the other hand almost all manufacturers don’t recommend putting a spacer behind the plates…your call.

[B.Mac]

The Starflite was packaged with a Panther Plate and a 300 HP rating but with 8" of SB.
The extra 5" setback is an acceptable calculated risk with this hull at WOT @ 70MPH. I'm running a 2.5/ 200 @ 350 lbs.
Here's the lowdown on the plate.....(model 55-0300)
http://www.panthermarineproducts.com/panther/jackplates.html

I'm restoring the plate to new condition for $100
New bushings, clevis pins, and welded mounting sleeves.
Back to original tolerances.
A comparable CMC or Detwiler runs @ $500-$700

Is there a formula for calculating increased weight/ force per inch of setback? I know you just posted one Reese but I don't understand the formula?

Thank you for your input:D
B.MAC:D

[Reese]

just take the setback in inches devided by 12 multiplied by the wieght (engine in this case) + the weight of the engine.

So for example let's assume you want to calculate how much force your transom will experience if you added a 8" setback.

A typical 2.4 weighs about 350 lbs...
8"/12"=.667
.667 x 350=233 lbs
233 + 350 = 783 lbs

783 is the force of a 350 lb engine mounted 8" from the transom.

[gaineso]

Originally posted by Reese
just take the setback in inches devided by 12 multiplied by the wieght (engine in this case) + the weight of the engine.

So for example let's assume you want to calculate how much force your transom will experience if you added a 8" setback.

A typical 2.4 weighs about 350 lbs...
8"/12"=.667
.667 x 350=233 lbs
233 + 350 = 783 lbs

783 is the force of a 350 lb engine mounted 8" from the transom.

Only trying to be sure I understand. Shouldn't that last part of your calculation be 233+350=588? Not questioning how you derived it. Just your math.

Also concerned about that load being dynamic at that distance. That transom that B.Mac has put in that boat will probably hold 2 of any motors made, just curious about whether that plate combo will.

Of course, the manufacturer rates that model at 550 lbs and you've got a 350 lb motor and Reese's formula would actually only apply to the extra setback. Seems to me it should work. Using that formula I come up with 496 lbs. Running in the bay though, I'd give it an occasional thorough look-over.

Reese, please check my math on this

Fabulous job.

[Reese]

233 + 350 = 733

of course a little super bowl beer is not factored in this equation.:D :D :D

Oh by the way...my wife was winning the fourth quarter super bowl pool...who would have ever thought that with two damn seconds left tampa bay would return ONE MORE interception.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[B.Mac]

Glad I'm not designing space shuttles..........
In calculating the load on the PLATE
The PLATE is rated for 550 lbs @ 8"
So 8" is already omited from the math.

The calculation is how much weight does 350 lbs increase over the additional (unrated) solid 5" S.B.?
Therefore ...........5"/12" = .416
.416 X 350 LB = 145.6
145.6 + 350 LB = 495.6 LBS
550 LB - 495.6 LB = 54.4 LB or 10.1% margin to max rating. I'm sure the 550 LB PLATE rating is dynamic force so I'm looking at 10% under max weight rating BUT that rating I'm sure is direct downward force and not calculated for offset/ levered (5")downward force. It's close. I'll keep my eye on her and my jacket tight :D :eek: :p

Didn't you already say that Gainso???
Whew!! I gotta go rest my brain........I hate math:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

That's right. You can calculate it that way. If you put your trust in those numbers, I'd buy a very good lifejacket :D

Point being that those are all static calculations. With a boat sitting on a trailer. That's probably about 1% reliable and mostly because it's based on the company's rating and not considering the dynamics of the boat in the water.

The forces on that plate FAR exceed those numbers. I'd only use proportions like that in considering how far to move the boat up on the trailer after adding setback! LOL!! :cool:

Trust me your over the limit, and I would say the biggest factor is what Rick mentioned about you stiffening the transom. That will have a far greater load on that plate than that additional 5" setback.

That is why standard SS bolts are not a problem when mounting your motor. There is relatively a good amount of flex in a outboard/transom setup that eases the strain on those bolts. That is why flywheel bolts on motors use grade 8. No flex. The flexing absorbs the strain.

It will work, I would plan on replacing it soon. Just keep an eye out for a better plate.

-BL

[sho305]

It has been years since I messed with this, but I think the larger factor might be the rotational inertia of the motor, as is increases by the square the farther away it is. This would be to force the motor would apply to the transom when it moves opposed to the hull. Say, when you hit a wave and the hull changes position, the jack must force the motor to the new position behind the transom. The farther the weight out there the harder it will be to move it/keep it aligned. Inertia = Mass*Radius squared.

So I=mr squared, I=350lbs*(8"*8), 350*64=22,400 (350lbs@8")
Now 12", 350lbs*144=50,400 (350lbs@12")

You can see you nearly tripled the force here in rotational axis moment of inertia from 22k to 50k; or 227%. So 350lb + 227% = 794.5lbs. for what that is worth. This would be the change in force to start/stop/change a particular movement of the motor from rotating at the transom, in other words the change of torque on the transom bolts(and jack) figuratively. You should be able to wiggle the motor and get a vibration going in it much easier, if you can put enough force to it; as the larger distance will apply much more rotational force.

I don't know how much a motor rotates to a hull, so those numbers only show the change of the force, what ever fraction of that force that might be generated by your boat bouncing around. Even so, the weight of the motor is centered beyond the clamp and father away than the 8 or 12 inches. I assume the factory tested/figured that in.

While your static weight only increases by the percent change you move it out, the "flywheel" force of the weight out there on the lever(jack) is more. See B) 3) here http://www.cwu.edu/~acquisto/NLangular.htm

By all means, correct me if wrong, as I am rusty on this. But liken it to a short and long golf club. While the long one will be heavier to hold straight out, it will be much harder by the squared to wave around straight out at a set speed of wave. The same reason a tight-rope walker uses a long, long but light pole to steady himself as it will not rotate easily. On the other hand, once it gets moving, it is that much harder to stop.

Simple torque could be figured by 350lbs * .67 (8"=.67 ft)=233.33
Now to 12" setback, 350lbs * 1 =350 lbs torque on the transom instead of 233 lbs. Here the increase is similiar to what you came up with, but does not account for accelerating force, it is only static.

I would look for another set up in the interest of safety. Maybe if you had a solid box type spacer on the hull that fully supported the jack; possibly a plate could do it. Like others said, your sturdier hull will have less give to it also, making momentary force changes greater on everything, though to a lesser degree I imagine...still greater. Nobody wants to see a Merc in the drink!:) Just trying to help you out.

[B.Leonard]

Originally posted by sho305
... Nobody wants to see a Merc in the drink!:) Just trying to help you out.

Nobody? :D :D

-BL

[B.Mac]

:eek:
ANATOMICAL KINESIOLOGY
CONDITIONS OF ROTARY MOTION.
PROFESSOR: DR. LEO D’ACQUISTO

1) Eccentric force. A force which is applied off center.

Hey BL!! You're in sho's formula!!!:D:p

That whole post went way over my dynamic mental forces :p

What are the weight holding capacities of two steering cables and two control cables of an underwater 350 LB object?

'Yer right sho I better run an OMC until I'm sure it's gonna hold:D
B.MAC:D

[Reese]

to complete the formula in order to compare the rating to the actual force on the panther.

"panther is rated for 550 lbs @ 8"

You need to do the math first because that statement means nothing.

8"/12" x 550 + 550 = 916 lbs of force (this is what the panther sees with a 550 lb outboard)

Now, you want to know what happens when you hang a 2.4 with and additional 5" setback...okay.

13" (8"+5")/12" x 350 + 350 = 729 lbs. of force (another good reason we love our light outboards)

Both numbers are the static forces the panther will see...you don't need to calculate the dynamic forces (like wave jumping) because when you apply the dynamic equation equally the 2.4 can never exceed the V8's numbers...

Okay with that said, I would never trust any manufacturers claims to be very reliable. I have a CMC on a 2.4 and after a couple of years of hard use the side bolts are already digging into the slots that hold the outboard in place.

I agree with everyone that is saying be careful...those plates are barely addequate for their intended use...let alone 5" of additional setback or a 550 lb outboard.

If at all possible I would try a different route...remember STV's have a built in setback for a reason and it's not because 10" or 15" setback plates aren't available.

[sho305]

Hey, I threw some real easy examples in there for ya!!!:D :D My point is with added length; the swinging forces increase by the square, not the same as twice the length=twice the weight. Twice the length=4x the swinging around force for the same weight. The swing is only part of the force here, yes, but a big part of rough water forces on it.

I'll amend that to: any darn expensive outboard motor in the drink!! Some suggest the omc is even more weight...so be careful:D :D I could care less, as long as the boat goes and the motor keeps running!!:cool: And don't fall off:eek: :eek:

My friend had twin BBC Merc I'Os, and one hit something at 80mph and got ripped off. He had a 1" or better SS tie rod with heim joints between them...it ripped it in half after dragging for a second or two. About threw them out of a 28' deep vee. $9k in the drink.

[Alan Power]

I'm not sure about this, so anyone correct me if I'm wrong. But engine of ???HP = ????lbs of thrust at 13" of setback, plus 20" or more shaft length = a lot of force on the transom mounting bolts.

[Reese]

I don't think you can't calculate force that way because your missing a big numeric factor "slippage".

Remember when you first hit the throttle hard what happens...force is applied (rather slowly) over time (huge slippage). It's not exactly like dropping the throttle on a drag car with slicks.

Now imagine jumping over a 6" wave and slapping down hard at sixty...or driving down you favorite backroads and hitting a pothole at 80...why do you think they sell so many transom savers.:eek:

[175checkmate]

Major confusion working on this end.

[sho305]

Yes, the pounding water has a real hard effect on the transom. You have the prop come loose, and when it re-enters the water it grabs hard with the revved up motor...then you have the boat holding up the weight of the motor out there when it slams down and the motor wants to keep going down. Plus all the turning forces and so on.

When we ran big I/Os you had to be real careful on the throttles, cause if you did not let up on 500+hp per drive when it got loose, it would blow up when you hit the water. Serious. Just like dumping the clutch at 7,000rpm, except the gears in there are tiny. You could get away with it a limited number of times, then crunch!

[gaineso]

B.Mac, I think this discussion may have gotten out of hand. If it wre me, I'd mount that sucker and run it. ANY HiPo rig you need to check out regularly to be sure everything is tight and secure. Beyond that, I wouldnt worry TOO much. 'Course, I wouldn't want to be running WFO in a hurricane, but I wouldn't want to do that on anything less than a Nimitz class carrier. If you run into a bargain on a 12 or 13 inch plate, grab it. Otherwise, run it and enjoy.

My $0.04

[B.Mac]

I appreciate everyone's valuable input and perspectives.
I've considered them all carefully and decided to use the combo until another 12" plate turns up.
I've run the snot out of this setup in very, very, choppy conditions and am comfortable with the calculated risk.
She's a Bay boat not offshore.
Interesting input and all very much appreciated and valued:D
Thanks guys.......
B.MAC:D

[Tom D.]

BMac,
There are more points for fatuge on that sissor plate than on say a bob's type of plate. It would not take much of a little twist or a little slack in one of the pins or bolts for this type of plate to cause a real scarie moment compared to a bob's type plate. But its your call!

Tom

[sho305]

I'm gonna leave poor B Mac alone:) It just looks "iffy", so maybe one of the good people here at S&F can find him a good deal on another jack before he runs into some bad weather. Maybe that bullet-proof transom you made has us all thinking you are the James Bond type with your boat??? Hehehe.

What size/type would you want on there? Maybe someone has one around?

I might get a used one for one of my underpowered boats....but I noticed there are hardly any in the sale area.:confused:

[B.Mac]

I'll test it with the 8" setback only first, to see what my GPS top speed is......If I dont drop any speed I'll get rid of the step n' jack.

I never determined if the 5" additional S.B. gave me any more top end because I foolishly changed setback and props (25 Tempest from 25 Laser II) at the same time and immediatly picked up @4 MPH. From 65 to 69. I never ran the new prop only. I'll give her a shot. No sense in more setback if it aint doin' nothin':D
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

Rest assured that laser 2 is getting a hard workout.:D

[sho305]

You remember what kind of trim angle you had topped out? Mine is trimmed with the trailer button then:D So I know I need setback!

[B.Leonard]

The last time I had the Sterling down there... we put in together at the ramp, idle out of the cove. He's a little ahead of me cause I'm getting strapped in...

No sooner than the no wake sign passes the stern of his boat, he's at WOT and heading straight for the roughest water he can find, straight out into the Gulf! :eek:

I should've never even been out there, my fuel cell was busted loose from the last event at Palatka, the boat still had a bad deck/seam leak that was there from day 1 that required constant attention with the bilge pump switch and to make it worse I was trying a vent plate that was dragging keeping me around 65mph.

Nonetheless, I took pursuit! I could barely keep up! We ended up in 3 ft swells as we cleared the pass out into the Gulf.

My boat is sinking and the fuel cell is on it's side, I nearly lost the rear deck lid from all the pounding and he wants to do top end runs! LOL! :D

That jack plate will be just fine B.Mac, just strap a lifejacket to that Merc! LOL!!

-BL

[Alan Power]

Thanx, just wondering- never rigged a boat like this before, am still a newbe to all this! Hopefully I'll get my first taste in spring when I start to rig my boat, (with some much needed help).

Sorry B. Mac, wasn't trying to scare ya just wanted to know how much setback was possible!

Alan

[Reese]

Becoming an expert has its downfall:

First, you’ll soon begin to believe you actually know something.

Second, you’ll take this newfound knowledge and strive to “reinvent the boat”.

Third, you’ll spend a good part of you life trying to finish this earthshaking project.

Finally, you’ll come full circle, truly become an expert, and decide to leave all this **** to someone else.

In the mean time, my kid hates me, my wife hates me, and my neighbors laugh at me…

Okay, now that we got that out of the way, what you plan on doing…:D :D :D

[Alan Power]

Sounds all too familiar,

Went to University, studied boat design and construction.
Have a million projects on the go, each one more important than the other
My girlfriend hates me/boats!, my friends think I'm insane and I'm sure my neighbors don't appreciate me grinding away at 11.30pm. Not to mention the lovely smell of styrene while having a BBQ on a Saturday afternoon!!!

Now my two main projects are to finish my 13' V-hull and use it as a learning tool for rigging and set-ups, sell it to part finance my other project. Which is to design and build a 15' Cat

[Reese]

just remember the boating industry as a whole is going to bigger and bigger boats.

It may not be that much more work to make an 18 or 20 footer...see we're already creating more work for you.

[sho305]

Reese - The expert, very good!!:D

Most of the cars I ever had, and now have, would be a pos if I was not the expert at fixing/trading/pedaling them. I have nice cars...about 6 at the moment, that are all paid for but one; only so that bank will like me more. I made a lot of money off them too. Now I am getting the same with boats....nothing wrong with a free boat or car;) Added value? I can't turn down toys for free! My wife does not mind until the yard gets full of cars/boats...then I have to sell one and take her out to dinner:)

[Alan Power]

Well the cat project started out as an exterimental boat for myself originaly 12', then after researching, thinking and talking to guys on here it's worked it's way to 14' then 15'. So I may get there yet!. :D :D
Also, I've just finnished reading Secrets of tunnel boat design, by Jim Russel and found it very interesting, so more changes to be made there. Jim has been a huge help with my project and the book is awsome, would recomend it to any one interested in performance boats.:cool:

[B.Mac]

Originally posted by Reese
Becoming an expert has its downfall:

First, you’ll soon begin to believe you actually know something.

Second, you’ll take this newfound knowledge and strive to “reinvent the boat”.

Third, you’ll spend a good part of you life trying to finish this earthshaking project.

Finally, you’ll come full circle, truly become an expert, and decide to leave all this **** to someone else.

In the mean time, my kid hates me, my wife hates me, and my neighbors laugh at me…

Okay, now that we got that out of the way, what you plan on doing…:D :D :D

Now there's a guy who knows boating!!!!:D ;) :p
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Pre fit a couple of cardboard templates.......The fuel tank sits between the stringers.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Marine plywood ain't:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Transfer prefitted templates to marine plywood & cut..........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

1.5 oz. matt on underside of new floor components...........
After it kicks I'll grind the excess off, flip them and bond them down to the stringers with bonding putty and screws, and to the hull with wet fiberglass matt.
Then I'm going to wrap another 16" wide piece of 1708 biaxel from center-hull up the stringer and over onto the floor 6" for extra duty hold down power. Then I'll matt the floor on top and make it all purdy.......
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

Sure does look nice!:)

What is that, about 3/8 or 1/2"?

[175checkmate]

Looks great, and strong. Keep it up, I have to follow your lead.

[Talon2.5]

Bmac, you ok? the thread died off, get 'er done yet?

[B.Mac]

Job, kids. wife, website development (http://www.harvesttabernacle.org/), wife, and letting my itching skin recover before I dive in for another round.........
Oh yea....did I say wife?:confused: :D ;) :p
B.MAC:D

Oh yea I got my "donor Panther plate" from jrpromax.....
I sent him $55 and it cost him $27 to ship the darn thing!!!!
It's perfect!!! What a great guy!!!
Thanks jrpromax for saving me alot of bucks!!!!

[B.Mac]

I've got the new floor in......all bonded and screwed...........now I need to lay 1708 biaxel at all the joints and corners/ transitions and a layer of 1.5 oz. matt & I'm done with the inside until rigging.
Then it's on to exterior "finish" glass work and gelcoat on the transom..........
B.MAC
:D

[sho305]

Ought to change that old insurance(?) commercial, "Get a piece of the rock", to "Build a piece of the Rock!":D :D

[Talon2.5]

looking good man!!

[B.Mac]

Ground (AGAIN :eek: ) the floor, stringers, hull and butt joints of all the new floor area and layed up a layer of 1708 bi-axel cloth over the new floor, down the side of the new stringers (they were already bonded and layed up with one layer of 1708 to the hull) and out into the center of the hull. That's alot of cloth holding them stringers and floor down. Wow, this has been alot of nasty work but I think the worst is behind me now.........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I've got one more layer of 1.5 oz. matt to layup over the new floor just to clean it up a bit and I should be done with the structural work!!! YES!!!!!:D :p :D :cool:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Finish glass work and gelcoat/ metalflake
I've got the rough-in glass work done on the new transom exterior and the new modified splashwell BUT NOW I gotta make it purty.
If I understand the process correctly it's gonna take one or two layers of 1.5 oz. matt and a long airfile to get it all straight and ready for gelcoat. The new interior splashwell base needs to be integrated/ blended into the old deck/ well wall very cleanly. SAND SAND BLEND SAND SAND BLEND SAND AND SAND SOME MORE. At least I ain't crunched over in the stern breathin' acetone and resin fumes:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Fiberglass dust bites:eek:
B.MAC:D

[B.Leonard]

Glass in a pad for your bilge pump.

-BL

[B.Mac]

I kept ripping off my depth sensor mounted to the exterior bottom of transom with my WOT bay runs. Twice I found the sensor wire swinging around and the sensor gone:eek:

Can I epoxy a sensor onto the interior hull bottom and still get a decent reading or does it have to actually hang off the back of the transom?
B.MAC:D

[gaineso]

B.Mac, a lot of bass boats runnin' in the high 70's and 80's have tranducers inside.

What you've got to do is mount it in the thinnest area you can find. It has to be pretty level when you're running, and not be aerated when you're running. As far back as possible. Can not be cored. Don't remember if your boat is core bottom or not.

You have to make sure that the resin you mount it with is absolutely clean and no air bubbles between the transducer and hull and a really solid area of the hull. You'll lose a very slight amount of sensitivity, but not enough to matter. If they can do it that way on a bass boat where they are trying to find fish and structure shooting through the hull, you shouldn't have a problem at all.

BTW West or BoatUS or a place like that should actually have a mounting kit.

[175checkmate]

Jam up job brian, you are jammin on that project.

[B.Mac]

Tying new transom well base to existing well deck with 1708
Biaxel / Three layers with sandwiched matt underside/ one layer of biaxel on topside to be covered with matt and sanded to fine contour.
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

This biaxel is hard to conceal with matt.......
B.MAC:D

[sho305]

Man, that looks real good! Nice work!

Hate to point out the obvious....but 175Checkmate, how does that well look for on your boat?:D :D :rolleyes: That is how I plan to do mine.

[Forkin' Crazy]

Lookin' good. Is my Checkmate next?;) :D

You're gonna think I am full of #$@%, but try some Bengay, Aspercream, or anything with salicylic acid on the areas of skin where the glass is bothering you. It will ease the discomfort. I found this out by accident. It does work.:)

[175checkmate]

SHO. I have thought long and hard about the splashwell on my checkmate. The factory well had a 3" lip. This is where the top motor mount bolts went through. Look at the picture below, If I got rid of that lip and did what B.MAc is doing I would have major trouble mounting the jackplate and motor.

[sho305]

Maybe yours is not the same as mine. Here is a cheezy diagram of what I plan for mine.

One would have to figure the correct total height for the transom for mounting the plate. I think B Mac's is about like this.

Where did that little red guy come from?? Must have jumped over from the vector thread...

:D

[B.Mac]

I have not changed the original height of the factory transom except for bonding/ screwing one 3/4" marine ply base down to the new transom and the tops of the monster knees see pics of outside & inside. It does not intefere with the jackplte bolts at all, as a matter of fact, it puts all four bolts INSIDE the hull UNDER the new wellbase. Another consideration is that with a jackplate you have some leeway as to it's position vertically on the transom as long as it will lift high enough to surface the prop(level with pad) and lower enough to pull a skier up and out (3")
So if your unit has more than 3" of vertical lift you've got that excess lift as room for error. I will admit it is a pain to do though.

Ultimately though your the guy grinding, cutting, sanding, glassing, chopping and itching so...........:eek: :D

B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Underside of new splashwell base mounted to knees, transom and stringers.......
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

I still gotta make this look right on the exterior:eek:
(That white stuff ain't snow!!! :eek: )
B.MAC:D

[175checkmate]

I understand what you guys are saying. With the factory splash well inplace, last summer I had trouble with sitting on the river bank injoying life. If a boat went by the wake would wash over the stern and up in to the boat. If that lip was not there the wave would just ride up and over. Same trouble with come down off of plane. If not done just right I get the same wave. So to help with this problem I decided to raise the lip level with the rest of the transom instead of having the drop lip.
I will try it this year and if it doesent work out it will be next years project.

[B.Mac]

Well here's the new wellbase tied into the deck with 1708 biaxel and a layer of 1.5 oz. matt over that.........Not bad for a first rough in...............I might even be able to put this grinder away and switch to an airfile & D. A. ......Hallaluejia!!!!! :D :D :D
B.MAC:D

Its almost over....Its almost over.....Its almost over.............

[Reese]

now that you've come so far in such a short time you may even want to consider redesigning that paaaddd...:D

BTW, are you going to run the panther by itself or use the additional 5" bracket (8 vs. 13)???

[B.Mac]

My arms itch, my face itches, my eyeballs itch, and even my wife and kids are starting to itch!!! I'm swearing off the fiberglass..........(again).

I managed to get ahold of a newer Panther Plate with heavy duty hinge pins and components....I'm going to run that first by itself with no extra setback to see what my WOT speed is. I've already got 5" of static setback designed into the hull (notch), so with the 8" Panther I may not need that 5" solid spacer. In fact in thinking about it, too much setback might be causing me to lose top end with this hull for two reasons:
1.) The hull is stepped and I may be levering the steps out of the water reducing aeration under the hull.
2.) 13" + 5" of static S.B. is ALOT of setback (18") on a 21' hull.
I just may be plowing the stern and scrubbing off speed.

Also I want to borrow a LWP/ LU and 26 big ear chopper for a test run.....they say it doesn't work on these hulls but.....
I can't see how I can lose speed jacking my bullet (drag) out of the water. I wont run a surfacing prop with the Panther & spacer combo. Too much additional stress on the Panther.

I still got a few weekends of work to go before rigging starts
but I'm gonna try to lose the spacer if I dont scrub off speed.
I was running @ 68-70 @ 6300 with a 25P Tempest standard LU and the Panther with spacer. 2.5 close to stockie.

Not to mention a pad will kill rough water handling & comfort and that's all I run in is 1'-3' Bay chop.
B.MAC :D

[175checkmate]

As I sit here droooling over the work you have done, fiberglass itch setting in from another day of glassing/grinding. (waiting for the epoxy to kick right now) I feel your pain.
I had a guy at work ask if I would re-do his floor and add knees. I told him sure, no problem. $10,000.00 and he pay's for the material.

[Reese]

running the jack plate without the additional 5" static setback...you may find that your top speed stays the same and your holeshot improves.

I agree that v-bottoms with lifting strakes generally start to plow the stern with mucho setback. I really think that many 20-21' boats can benefit from 15-20" setback but they also need wide pads, otherwise it doesn't work very well.

The above statement is another reason why LWP might not necessarily improve the top end on your boat...but it's always worth a try.

Looking good B.Mac...don't forget long sleeve shirts cures lots of ills.

[sho305]

I asked around here about adding pads to mine, and got a lot of response about enlarging the first set of strakes and leaving the vee point in the center. Quite a few seemed to be happy with the results. I know my vee needs to be bow up to un-wet the bottom, but if I trim down it will cut the waves well; so I figure I could add some and still be fine in the water I run with this 17' Checkmate.

[B.Mac]

Working with a D.A. and 80 grit to smooth out the transitions between new well base and deck.........still a little wavey but it'll get better when I hand sand it with a flat edge.......

I had to fill and glass the old rigging hole and raise it up off the well base an inch or two........also glassed in some kind of 2" auxillery rigging hole (probably stock single cable steering?) that they had a rubber plug stuck in from the factory.......
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

grind.....grind......grind.....sand.....sand.....sand...........
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

My next one will be right outta the factory when I hit lotto. In the mean time this ones good for another ten years:D
B.MAC:D

[B.Mac]

Talk about over kill!!!! This transom ain't goin nowhere...........
1/4" aluminum plate with a 90* bend and 6" lip rising up onto the new wellbase that gets through bolted with two 3/8" bolts in each corner.........:eek: No more glass work for me anytime soon......:D
B.MAC:D