Las Vegas/Colorado River boaters seen this bullcrap yet?

[pcrussell50]

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Clean Engine Requirement - 2013
Beginning January 1, 2013, boats that do not meet the Environmental Protection Agency Rule for gasoline spark - ignition marine engines would be prohibited on Lakes Mead and Mohave. The National Park Service will require the exclusive use of four-stroke engines, direct-injection two-stroke engines or equivalent technology.

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from here

No more 2.5L Mercs? No more crossflows or loopers? Really? Keith, you live in Vegas but you boat in Havasu, (Have-a-screw). Havasu is free from this for now, but for how long? It's part of the same NPS system of lakes, right?

This is where Southern California goes to boat on fresh water.

-Peter

[Hammerhead]

Some lakes in California don't allow carbureted 2 strokes because their drinking water lakes the EPA has been trying to get rid of 2 strokes for years. The Colorado River borders states (like AZ & CA ) The Coast Guard patrols it. And the same rules apply as in the ocean. I think it is going to be hard to discriminate 2 strokes @ the river and Havasu my 2 cents.

[pcrussell50]

my local lake in southern cal, (not as big and fun as the ones im bitching about), is a drinking water lake. 2-strokes are allowed. swimming is not. there is some crooked political stench to all this. my uncle-in-law, who is a water quality manager for the socal water bureaucracy said they knew years ago when carb 2-strokes were all there was, that they did not hurt water quality. OTOH, bacteria from the human body cannot be ruled out (apparently), as a source of pollution to drinking water. He was project manager for Diamond Valley reservoir, which does ban 2-strokes. He tried to make them not banned, because they don't negatively affect water quality. But he was overruled by the only person who out ranked him... a liberal politician looking for votes, even if his claims were lies.

-Peter

[pcrussell50]

sooo... nobody's too worried about this spreading to other fresh water boating venues?

the lakes i posted about are medium use, large national park service lakes. i don't see any way this is anything less than an opening salvo, with more to come. i'm thinking the nps just didn't want to piss off too many people too quickly by closing off lake powell or lake havasu. that will come later after the camel's nose is in the tent.

-peter

[fyremanbil]

Yes, I'm worried about it too. Last real American out of the state please take the flag. I'll be leaving as soon as I retire.

[pcrussell50]

Yes, I'm worried about it too. Last real American out of the state please take the flag. I'll be leaving as soon as I retire.

bill, ca is to blame for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. this is national... the national park service and the EPA. AND, for a change, these are not california lakes, (unless it spreads to havasu), that's why everybody on this list should be worried. it's a direct threat to all of you, too.

-peter

[Da Bull]

There was a long article writen by Bob Brown when all this banning got started and i belive it was Lake Tahoe. He wrote that a very rich cassino owner that lived on the lake wanted rid of the jet ski`s so he put pressure on somebody to do sample studies on the water. After five differant agencies found no contamination in the water he got a testing company out of England to test and condem the findings. He then took these findings to our Government and got all two strokes kicked of the lake. Turns out that where he lived on the lake was a popular hang out for jet ski`s.
Maybe somebody that remembers this article and can post a link to it will do so. It`s an eye opener.

DB

[Ron V]

bill, ca is to blame for a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. this is national... the national park service and the EPA. AND, for a change, these are not california lakes, (unless it spreads to havasu), that's why everybody on this list should be worried. it's a direct threat to all of you, too.

-peter

I love our national parks because they are the one place that has been set aside that condominiums and shopping malls can't contaminate. While I can understand the notion to some extent since it comes up in the midst of the entire "green" movement, I do think that this is going way overboard. The amount of pollution from conventional 2 strokes doesn't amount to a hill of crap compared to the diesel semis and coal-fired power plants that fill our lungs with soot every day.

Furthermore, conventional 2 strokes are dying such a rapid natural death with the mainstream boating crowd that they shouldn't even be wasting their time worrying about it. Just a few years ago, there were still a LOT of motors from the '60s, '70s, and '80s in service around here. For whatever reason, they all reached their pinnacle at once and they have nearly vanished overnight. You still see them, but 4-strokes and DFI motors FAR outweigh them. This is partly because outboards in general are nearly gone except for pontoons and fishing boats, and both of those crowds have bought into the new technology due in large part to the massive yuppie movement in this country. So for the EPA and NPS to even worry about this is a moot point. EVEN IF there was enough pollution to worry about, it is disappearing so fast that it's a joke to even waste resources enforcing it.

Even though this is a national park issue, I still think this is a California thing if you look behind the scenes. California is where all the extremist crap starts (sorry, but you know it's true) and therefore even the feds know it's the best place to set the precedent and get people to buy into it so they can topple the dominoes from west to east. Just like they did with the ventless gas cans, DFI motors, etc.

[perfmarine1]

What a bunch of morons,and how in the hell do they plan to keep the waterfowl,birds,animals and fish from taking a crap in there so called drinking water lake.If anybody tells you it is a drinking water lake ,gather some in a jar,put in some Goose crap and ship it to them with a note :you are drinking this??????????????????

[pcrussell50]

After five differant agencies found no contamination in the water he got a testing company out of England to test and condem the findings.

this jives pretty much with what my california water man uncle said about carbureted 2-strokes. no detectable degradation of drinking water quality. one reason i'm pretty sure this rule is the result of corruption, and not science, is that normally, a public facility must publically post the reasons for restricting use, and the transparent procedure they used to determine it. yet... no matter how i search either the NPS's own web site or google, i can not find a single reference to the study they used to justify the rule.

see, i'm not just some pissed off dude who throws the bullsh*t flag over everything. i'm seriously trying to find their scientific papers that justify this idiotic ban. it shouldn't be so hard, unless there never was anything to back up their ban. near as i can tell so far, most of their gripe is with PWC's, which until recently were almost all 2-strokes. we outboarders are just innocent bystanders getting screwed by the war against PWC's which they will never win, because they are going 4-stroke now.

i'm getting nothing but apathy and personal attacks on my whaler forum. they're either rich liberals who buy new motors every few years, so they don't care... or they are apathetic, "they won't do it to my lake", types.

-peter

[STV_Keith]

I better look into it again, because I thought that went into effect on Jan 1, 2012. 2013 gives me another year. :) Yeah, it's all BS. Damn politicians are going to regulate me out of boating (typical liberal agenda - make it too expensive to be affordable to do). Neither of my boats will pass their requirement, but I wonder what ranger will be able to tell what I have. Are they going to pull the cowl and look? Tell me what's under there? Can they pick a carb from EFI or just look at stickers? My cowls have custom stickers already...that's easy.

I'm going to play it by ear. While I mainly boat in Havasu, where this isn't going to be in effect, I have done more boating in Mead this year. We use Mohave for a lot of testing of the Parker 300 race boat. That's gonna suck, unless the rangers give us a pass...we know most of them down there. My STV has been broke for over a year now, so I haven't even been to Mohave or Havi with it. :(

Check this link: http://classwebs.spea.indiana.edu/kenricha/NEPA%20and%20the%20Forest%20Service/NEPA%20-%20General%20Reference/Lake%20Mead%20sample%20EIS.pdf

[whipper]

Looks like EFI 2.5,s are OK right? Just not carbed. DFI well equivelent to DFI is EFI so they are pretty gray the way I read it. It seems like they are more interested in banning car motors. 4 strokes and 300XS motors are good to go right being DFI for sure. They cant ticket what they cant catch. Buricrates there no differant than drug dealers. Steal money and fun from regular people!!

[STV_Keith]

2006 Emissions level or newer. :(

[Smoking Joe]

Ok so I know this doesn't apply to me living over here in Clean Green New Zealand. But it appears that the problem is not just carb'd two strokes. To clarify then, are the powers that be, banning all two strokes but not high pressure injected engines? Does this then mean that EFI engines will be banned along with carb'd two stokes???

So does this mean that you guys need to be developing EFI kits for all the carb'd engines?:rolleyes:

[pcrussell50]

the way the NPS puts it, my take was that old skool air-horn injection won't cut it. if it is going to be 2-stroke, it has to be direct injection, like optis and etecs. and they are not banning car engines, afaict.

-peter

[STV_Keith]

The rule says: "Two-stroke engines would be allowed on the waters, but would be required to be in compliance with the 2006 EPA emission standards by December 31, 2012."

That means it depends on the emissions compliance of the engine itself. What I don't get is how a ranger/coastie/etc is going to be trained to know one motor from another? Look for a sticker or know what a specific motor looks like? I wonder what the penalty is...get kicked off the lake? Fine? That is not mentioned at all.

[perfmarine1]

Ok so I know this doesn't apply to me living over here in Clean Green New Zealand. But it appears that the problem is not just carb'd two strokes. To clarify then, are the powers that be, banning all two strokes but not high pressure injected engines? Does this then mean that EFI engines will be banned along with carb'd two stokes???

So does this mean that you guys need to be developing EFI kits for all the carb'd engines?:rolleyes:

I am sure they will figure out that a EFI is no different than a carb when it comes to pollution/emissions!!!!!!!

[pcrussell50]

i'll. be. damned.

i wrote them a scathing letter last week, demanding clarification on the rule, and on what basis they made it. now they've changed the wording on their web site, and it doesn't seem to say that 2-stroke outboards will be banned... only 2-stroke PWC's. the nps has been anti-pwc for years.

-peter

[northernoffshore]

steve wynn was the cassio guy

[STV_Keith]

Update, saw this on NPS.gov today:

"Presently, the 2003 carbureted two-stroke motor ban that goes into effect on January 1, 2013 only applies to personal watercraft (Jet-Skis, SeaDoos, WaveRunners, etc)."

[pcrussell50]

Old news... Keith, see my post from July 17th...

I AM glad they haven't changed their minds in the last 7 months, and decided to include 2-stroke outboards in their idiotic ban, though.

FWIW, we just closed on our vacation home in Boulder City, which is where the NPS office is that oversees lake Meade and Mohave and the river in between them. I get out there every other week or so, so I'll be able to bitch them out in person if I have to. My fresh water only, green viper and sidewinder clone are safe and sound in their new garage.

-peter