Ethanol and fuel milage....Jr runs out of gas......

[WATERWINGS]

Don't know if anyone has posted this or not....but I think its funny that Nascar switched to ethanol and Earnhart Jr runs out of fuel on the last 1/4 lap of the race.....lol

[Gorilla0178]

It produces 30% less power, there for requires more fuel to go the same distance. Its a HUGE scam, that the weak minded believe cuz the man tells them so. There the same reason we're in this stupid problem.

[mirage243]

Don't know if anyone has posted this or not....but I think its funny that Nascar switched to ethanol and Earnhart Jr runs out of fuel on the last 1/4 lap of the race.....lol

That's funny sh*t right there. That Unchained fella will show up on this thread you can bet.

[WATERWINGS]

Unchained ?..........waiting.....(he'll be here)

Luv ya brotha !

[MODVP22]

I was thinking the same thing! There were fuel milage issues at the Indy 500 also. Very interesting

[sho305]

I don't think its that bad an idea, but to burn 30% of our corn that has a terrible yield of ethanol per acre is pretty stupid....enough to run the price of many foods up since corn is a feed grain as well as raw material for many foods. But hey, everyone laughed at Bush when he said switchgrass that takes half the acres.

[specboatops]

That's funny sh*t right there. That Unchained fella will show up on this thread you can bet.

Who Dat ???

[mirage243]

Who Dat ???

He eventually show's up on every ethanol thread. He really believes that ethanol is the best thing since sliced bread and denies that it has any harmful effects. I guarantee you he's getting some type of ethanol subsidies and just won't admit it.

[flabum1017]

yeh, but that ethanol reduces cylinder temps so you can run higher compression and more timing...... :D:D:D:D:D:eek:

[sho305]

yeh, but that ethanol reduces cylinder temps so you can run higher compression and more timing...... :D:D:D:D:D:eek:
Great if the particular engine can take advantage of it, you get more HP but still less MPG. Problem is the same, oil is cheaper and we are paying for government subsidies as well as higher food prices....and still $4/gal gas here. I need a trip to Europe, send airforce one up here. Oh snap, they wont come.....

[roadtriprhino]

I used to be able to drive about 20 minutes and buy non-ethanol gas,now they have switched over also,this stuff sucks a$$ i don't care how much "others " say its great stuff!! Jim Jones said drink the cool-aid too!!

[CDave]

Seems like sugar cane or sugar beets would be a better source for making ethal.

[Lockjaw]

It takes more "petroleum" to produce a gallon of ethanol then the energy a gallon of ethanol produces. Not to mention, it has caused the price of corn to skyrocket. Deer corn is 9 bucks a bag here now at Bass Pro Shops.

I am curious if anyone knows this, do the mandated miles per gallon average that car companies have to meet have to happen with E10, or do they get to use pure gasoline? My tundra gets 15 to 16 in mixed driving with E10, it gets 19 with pure gas.

[WATERWINGS]

I wondered that too.....

[Robby321]

Interesting thought there. I DO know that my old workhouse Astrovan, used to get 19/20 a gallon, 4.3 motor. Now more like 17/18. So paying more and getting less? Thats BS..(and that van has little high mileage/worn out motor. I'm retired, just goes to town once a week, and did a major tune up last year, zero change mileage)

[Robby321]

I been out riding around, cutting grass, and been thinking this Ethanol BS.
Now its well known, its about 30% less energy than gas, but I'm gonna do a solid 20% here.

Say ya do 10,000 miles a year. At 20 a gallon, 500 gals gas.
Now 10% (E10), gets you instead of 20 MPG, 18 MPG..(also a 10% reduction). And to do the same 10,000 miles, takes 550 gallons E10.
Extra 55 gallons at $4 is $220.
I won't get into the cost to produce ETH either. More added cost.
So we are basic burning food, and in actuality LOSING. Guess thats the way the gov, "creates jobs", and trashing older motors than run just as intended, on gas, which we here, if ever stopped the BS, started drilling for are own. Can't fix stupid, but ya can vote them out..(PLEASE!)

Edit..math was off. 10% ETH would be only 3% reduction, mixed E10 to 90% gas....(still cost more for less)

[Robby321]

yeh, but that ethanol reduces cylinder temps so you can run higher compression and more timing...... :D:D:D:D:D:eek:

Problem with that, is means I need to tear down all my motors, and with all the boats, bikes, and the van, I have 12 motors to "fix"?:eek::rolleyes::D:D

[Robby321]

Seems like sugar cane or sugar beets would be a better source for making ethal.

Yep, but thats a Brazil thing. And they have as much or more, land mass, compared US, and Equatorial continent for growing "sugar". Little populated like us, sugar cane fields for miles. Well set up for E85 too I think. Done it right. And us burning corn for food is SO F*%KING stupid.....but I think I said that!

[malexie]

Who else here tryed E85?
Works OK for me.

[Robby321]

Who else here tryed E85?
Works OK for me.

Have a question, did the Merc come from the factory approved ready, E85?

[malexie]

This is race application only. But all factory parts are used. Nothing special except a fuel curve.

[Robby321]

This is race application only. But all factory parts are used. Nothing special except a fuel curve.

OK, thanks reply..(nice ride!). Yep, its simple to run STRAIGHT ETH..just crank timing up, larger jets..(theres the bitch, as same power, just more "Gas") and do a high compression ratio. I'm not saying E85 is junk, set up right on the right motor. Think here the "alcohol/Methanol/ Nitro motors" Thats a whole new ball game, and purpose built. Heres the rub though, as said, nothing wrong with a set up motor, but the other 99.999999& this US, have to put up with Ethanol in gas, and I simple don't like the whole BS, of why needed, and cost more, does less, and better used for food. Thread here is more of the gov BS, than whats runs a motor.

[malexie]

I agree. But it sure is nice getting race fuel at the pump for $3.25 instead of $8.25

[Lockjaw]

The 8 dollar race fuel smells much better when it burns though. Argue with some of that logic. LOL!!!!!!!

[malexie]

I love the smell of pop corn. lol!

[Blizz]

Pure ethanol is 30% less efficient, E-10 is approx 3%. Not saying it's a great fuel but it seems it's kinda like the same scenario that people say when they ran premium in their Chevy Cavalier and all of a sudden it's getting extra mileage and and runs like a race car.

[Lockjaw]

I have checked my tundra before they started adding ethanol, and it gets better mileage with 87.

[Blizz]

Exactly and it's because it was designed to run on 87, just like everything else if the motor isn't designed or built to take advantage of the added octane it can reduce power and performance.

[sschefer]

Back to that Nascar thing. I'm pretty sure they're running flow meters and pre race testing determines fuel usage during the race. Sure they might use more fuel with E10 but you can't blame it if you run out of fuel and can't finish the race. Fire the pit boss that made the call to stay out.

As a side note, my 2011 Merc 4 stroke can run E10 without any problem at all. I ran it in my FrankenMerc also and didn't have any problems although it seemed to prefer MTBE.

The weird thing in the manual is that it say's to run 87 octane but say's you can also run Premium. If you put that in the same context as using E-10, it sort of says, "you can but it would be better if you didn't".. I dunno, just ramblin.

[patchesII]

Over octaning a motor is of no benefit whatsoever. It'll only reduce the power of the motor and reduce the dollars in your pocket

[sschefer]

Erik, I can't believe you said that.... LOL...

[gmcgruther]

For all you that like the sxxt (E-10 & E-85) you better get a tester for it. Each batch is totally different. The local street racers around the United States has found out the hard way. Smokeed piston's because they had it on the edge but the fuel they got was not up to par. BOOM BOOM baby. Just a fair warning, atleast race gas is within 3 octane +/- the other stuff, I had seen it swing -10 and more never went up. Just a word of caution. Research it on the web you'll see.

[patchesII]

Erik, I can't believe you said that.... LOL...

Only speaking the truth. Run a pump gas outboard on 110 race gas and see what a dog it'll be compared to 87. Actually pump gas makes pretty good power if your compression ratio isn't too much for it. Pump gas is oxygenated which boosts power

[Robby321]

Ya'all making some good points here..but (feel free to comment, hell, I aint no chemist). see if I can cover some comments made.

On the post mine, (Edited, used 20% there also) on the 30% reduction BTU, yep, I was wrong. Should have been 3%, as said. But even then, a 3% loss power, MPG say 20 , is 19.4. Now for a older motor, made to run on the GOOD gas we used to buy, bet you could add a 1% to that too, as NOT designed for ETH.. Now at 19.2 MPG, instead of the orig 20.
Also mentioned those who think running Premium made the ride feel like a race car. Well, we all know, its not a BTU thing there, its only to be able run higher compression. Gas is gas, higher compression, needs Octane additives, (think lead), to control detonation. Increases the BTU's zip. (I think)
On any Nascar..(don't follow), ya know they damn sure got the mileage out whats in the the tank, down to probably a few 100 feet. And I don't know, doesn't The Indy cars still run Methanol? But thats all apples and oranges. (actually, a SMARTER thing to do, would be MANDATORY "gas up pit stops", ALL..start damn racing again, not worried gas)
Lets get back on subject on ETH. Any engine designed for say E85, will for sure use more ETH the the same ride, set up for gas.
Thats the point. And lets not confuse octane, and BTU's. Simple, ETH has 30% less BTU's, and thats what pushes the piston down, so the same as gas, more BTU's there, ya need more ETH. Plus sucks moisture like a sponge, melts older Fiberglass tanks, eats older motor gas line, carb parts, cost more to make (its ONLY refined to cut down our mid east oil wants), its simple burning food, for oil we have now, if the idiots/tree huggers, get the hell out the way of progress.
And a side thought. Remember when "blowers" were KING, race rides? Ya want power now, just spray the bitch NOS...!
I grew up in the 60's, and the race track was either Sunoco 260, or race gas. "Corn Dogs for food"...not corn for fuel, and TOFU dogs for lunch...

[WATERWINGS]

For all you that like the sxxt (E-10 & E-85) you better get a tester for it. atleast race gas is within 3 octane +/- the other stuff, I had seen it swing -10 and more never went up. Just a word of caution. Research it on the web you'll see.[/B][/B]

How can us "normal" folk test for octane?

I already have an Ethanol tester, and have caught THREE stations selling 15% when it was supposed to only be 10%.....

[WATERWINGS]

Only speaking the truth. Run a pump gas outboard on 110 race gas and see what a dog it'll be compared to 87. Actually pump gas makes pretty good power if your compression ratio isn't too much for it. Pump gas is oxygenated which boosts power

I have a ported 2.4 - 200 but I took the 175 PSI heads off and put on 130-135 PSI heads......but I turn higher RPM's, (I try to let off at 6500, but that always doesn't work out)....I assume that I am ok with 87 octane with these heads....but how about the RPM's?...(sometimes over 7000 RPM's )

[HStream1]

Over octaning a motor is of no benefit whatsoever. It'll only reduce the power of the motor and reduce the dollars in your pocket


:iagree: 100%. There couldn't be a more true statement.

[Lockjaw]

Exactly and it's because it was designed to run on 87, just like everything else if the motor isn't designed or built to take advantage of the added octane it can reduce power and performance.

On the tundra forums, they say to run 93 in it, you can hear alot of knock when its hot outside, it is worse if you have a cold air intake.

[HStream1]

I have a ported 2.4 - 200 but I took the 175 PSI heads off and put on 130-135 PSI heads......but I turn higher RPM's, (I try to let off at 6500, but that always doesn't work out)....I assume that I am ok with 87 octane with these heads....but how about the RPM's?...(sometimes over 7000 RPM's )

With that combination John I'd run mid grade.

[sho305]

With a car engine it tends to be less of an issue because there is less time for detonation to occur at higher and higher rpm, but it can happen. Usually they try to dump all the advance in at 2500 or so and that can cause a problem and be why it does not knock below that. I can feel it in my current car when it gets warmer it loses power 2500-4K rpm and I can feel it adjusting the timing. I put midgrade in and it stops. It is better with water wetter it does not do it as much. I found that out with a turbo car I had, I advanced the timing and the ECU would retard if it knocked anyway, but in the winter I could get full timing on regular it really flew because the intercooler made a big difference. In the summer I had to run prem and it would still retard in traffic on hot days.

Now 2 strokes are different, and marine engines often don't have the same advance curves or none. I'd guess the bottom end of the torque peak would be the worst place for detonation and that happens at higher rpm with a 2 stroke. You can feel it sometimes hear it in a car but how do you tell in a boat, I can't. They really need a knock sensor.

I'd be surprised to hear a newer car knock I have not in many years, but can feel the power reduction and surging when it does it...in a car I am used to. I put a trans cooler and water wetter in my little car it made a big difference it was significantly better about that. The cooler is before the trans cooler in the radiator or I figured it might shift like a dump truck in the winter. Also put some slick50 treatment in the trans made it shift firmer. That is the trans that was slipping in hot weather, never did it again after that. They had an internal leak but no recall, but the trans guy told me all the small cars need a cooler anyway they run hot. This has always run lower on the temp gauge after doing all that.

[sschefer]

Bud, Erik, out here on the west coast the biggest difference between fuels is the price. 87, 89, 91 (sometimes 90) is not a lot of difference unless your motor is super sensitive. Oxigenation is with either 10% ethanol or MTBE. I'm breaking in my new 4 stroke on 89 MTBE (Chevron) and I'll run it on 87 up at 5000 ft. I'll probably never run it on 91 because I'm getting cheap but the Merc manual does state that it's O.K. to do it without any problems. There was some talk a while back about Merc allowing up to 15% Ethanol but my motor is a 2011 and the manual clearly states no more than 10%.

Just saying.

[HStream1]

On the Right Coast we have 87, 91, and 93. I know the motor John has and it is a Tommy Dunn motor. If he doesn't run mid grade (91) it will detonate at higher RPM's even at 130/135 psi. Now if John wants to retard the WOT timing he will be OK.

[HStream1]

How can us "normal" folk test for octane?

I already have an Ethanol tester, and have caught THREE stations selling 15% when it was supposed to only be 10%.....


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[gmcgruther]

Ya'all making some good points here..but (feel free to comment, hell, I aint no chemist). see if I can cover some comments made.

On the post mine, (Edited, used 20% there also) on the 30% reduction BTU, yep, I was wrong. Should have been 3%, as said. But even then, a 3% loss power, MPG say 20 , is 19.4. Now for a older motor, made to run on the GOOD gas we used to buy, bet you could add a 1% to that too, as NOT designed for ETH.. Now at 19.2 MPG, instead of the orig 20.
Also mentioned those who think running Premium made the ride feel like a race car. Well, we all know, its not a BTU thing there, its only to be able run higher compression. Gas is gas, higher compression, needs Octane additives, (think lead), to control detonation. Increases the BTU's zip. (I think)
On any Nascar..(don't follow), ya know they damn sure got the mileage out whats in the the tank, down to probably a few 100 feet. And I don't know, doesn't The Indy cars still run Methanol? But thats all apples and oranges. (actually, a SMARTER thing to do, would be MANDATORY "gas up pit stops", ALL..start damn racing again, not worried gas)
Lets get back on subject on ETH. Any engine designed for say E85, will for sure use more ETH the the same ride, set up for gas.
Thats the point. And lets not confuse octane, and BTU's. Simple, ETH has 30% less BTU's, and thats what pushes the piston down, so the same as gas, more BTU's there, ya need more ETH. Plus sucks moisture like a sponge, melts older Fiberglass tanks, eats older motor gas line, carb parts, cost more to make (its ONLY refined to cut down our mid east oil wants), its simple burning food, for oil we have now, if the idiots/tree huggers, get the hell out the way of progress.
And a side thought. Remember when "blowers" were KING, race rides? Ya want power now, just spray the bitch NOS...!
I grew up in the 60's, and the race track was either Sunoco 260, or race gas. "Corn Dogs for food"...not corn for fuel, and TOFU dogs for lunch...


People needs to do what I did to figure gas out, Buy 20 cents worth of regular,mid grade and premuim and race gas. pour one at a time on the ground , lite it up, and record how long each one burns:eek:, yes it's wasting gas but you'll be shocked:eek: on which one burns longer and hotter. Hint race gas is not the hot one or the fastest burning:eek:.

[HStream1]

Absolutely!!. The higher the octane the more stable the fuel hince needing more compression to detonate correctly. Lower octane will pre detonate in high compression engines causing big problems.

Simple equation Low octane -- Low Compression

High Octane -- High compression.

Some time I think (well I know) people have it backwards.

[sho305]

New cars are running 10:1 on 87 fuel but I think variable cam timing and DI have a lot to do with that.

Most stations here, that are still 4.14 as of last night, are 87, 89, 91 octane with $.10 difference between them. Some have 93 but you have to look around for it I'm not sure why the difference. They all have 87 for regular some used to have 86 but not seen it in a while. Places like golf courses with gas carts would buy it bulk.

[Robby321]

People needs to do what I did to figure gas out, Buy 20 cents worth of regular,mid grade and premuim and race gas. pour one at a time on the ground , lite it up, and record how long each one burns:eek:, yes it's wasting gas but you'll be shocked:eek: on which one burns longer and hotter. Hint race gas is not the hot one or the fastest burning:eek:.

Interesting thought. Do the same small amount, some non porous surface, stopwatch, and a Infrared Temp gun. (Damn, another experiment!)

[HStream1]

Interesting thought. Do the same small amount, some non porous surface, stopwatch, and a Infrared Temp gun. (Damn, another experiment!)

Simple. The lowed the octane the hotter the burn. Try it.

[sschefer]

I suppose you could go do it that way. It would give you a visual if not singed eyebrows. If you google octane you can find a lot of info on what the meansurement (yes it's a measurement not an additive) is used for and why it is important.

Hey, Bud this is not for you, I know you know..

[HStream1]

I suppose you could go do it that way. It would give you a visual if not singed eyebrows. If you google octane you can find a lot of info on what the meansurement (yes it's a measurement not an additive) is used for and why it is important.

Hey, Bud this is not for you, I know you know..

I know that Steve :thumbsup:. Looks like we were posting at exactly the same time.



Have a Great Weekend Buddy!!!

[WATERWINGS]

On the Right Coast we have 87, 91, and 93. I know the motor John has and it is a Tommy Dunn motor. If he doesn't run mid grade (91) it will detonate at higher RPM's even at 130/135 psi. Now if John wants to retard the WOT timing he will be OK.

Yep, its a Tommy motor.....I have the timing set at 24° and swapped heads down to 130-135 psi.

I burn 93 in it with 5 or 6 gallons of AvGas every once in a while.....

Down here, we have 87, 89, and 93....and they are TWELVE cents between each octane instead of 10 cents.....(greedy bastards)

Bud, you think I'm good with 89 octane?....i was afraid to try it cause my recall tach usually says 6500 + RPM's every time I look at it......lol

[HStream1]

Should be ok John maybe retard the timing 1 more deg. You can always use some aces. I've had good luck with it in my Two Drags for over two years now.