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Jeff_G
11-05-2002, 11:25 AM
From what I have seen there is one T2 powerhead. The difference seems to be a number of different T2 mid sections. I'm not including the T2X, although were there different mids here too?
What differences in the the T2's?
What differences in the T2X's?
Was the 3 and 4 carb version T2's factory?

Raceman
11-05-2002, 05:33 PM
Jeff, I don't know the answer to most of the questions, so all I can say is what I've run across with my engines. By the time I started going to the races, the T2/T2X stuff was becoming obsolete, and my friend at Merc's father was long gone from the factory and all ties with Lake X before the T2 stuff came around.

I've never seen a factory T2 or T2X with less than 6 carbs. I've never been able to tell any difference in T2 powerheads either, although I haven't been inside that many. As far as the mids, there's only one T2 style that I've ever seen or owned. I've got 3 complete T2's right now, 1 complete T2X and enough stuff to do another one except for the powerhead adapter and alum. flywheel. There were also 2 more, about 15 years ago, which I stupidly sold and have no idea where they went. The only reason I mention all that is that there's been consistency in the mids and other components throughout all these engines.

I've heard tales of factory finger ported T2X's and single ring piston ones also. Of the 6 carb powerheads I've been inside, I've never run across any of this stuff. The only thing that I've pretty well come to believe is that the T2X has two tubes in the carb throats.

There's been a lot of speculation on running changes with the motors, but I've yet to find anyone who's not just passing along second hand info. Seems like Ron Hill or Louis Collins might be a good source if they'll jump in.

Raceman
11-05-2002, 05:37 PM
Jeff, powerhead differences aside, the T2X was basically a T2 powerhead adapted to a T3 housing. I don't believe that the factory ever did it to anything but an early 6 bolt T3 housing. If there was more than one T2X housing used I've sure never known it.

Bill Gohr
11-05-2002, 07:51 PM
I was always of the impression that the powerhead between the T-2 and the X were the same. Just from there down was the difference. Supposidly, the motors came looking like 1400's (no boost port) and some later ones had the boost. I had worked on 2 that had 2 5/16 or 3/8 finger ports drilled on an angle into the intake area. The only one I saw with less than 6 carbs was the one think Merten had made with 5 to make Formula 100 rules.

Mark75H
11-05-2002, 08:07 PM
My research has never turned up anything other than what Raceman mentions on the towers......just those two (one for the T-2 and the T-3 tower for the x).

There was a different part number and huge price difference on replacement short blocks on the T-2 and T-2x, so I am inclined to think they may have been very similar, but actually not identical.

I will add that internally not all "customer" and "factory" T-2 and T-2x's are the same. My source says some "factory" T-2x's had a total of 7 transfer ports including boost ports.

I ditto Bill Gohr's comment on the 5 carb confuser. It was not a factory motor or option, nor any 3 carb T-2's.

Bill Gohr
11-05-2002, 08:11 PM
Sam's right, there were soooo many non production pieces. Sometimes you'd open a motor and go hey look at that. The motors I did with the extra ports were definetly not production pieces.

Jeff_G
11-05-2002, 08:46 PM
The reason I ask is I have seen at least 2 different T2 mid sections. I have only seen one T2X mid. I have seen a three carb front half that was supposedly factory and a "home made" three carb deal for Formula 100. As far as I know the powerheads were the same and mods by privateers. Hmmmm

Raceman
11-05-2002, 09:05 PM
What are the differences in the T2 mids that you've seen?

Jeff_G
11-06-2002, 09:22 AM
I'll have to get a picture but the other one is more like the older T1 1250 stuff. I have also seen at least 3 different tuners inside the same type mid. Gets confusing doesn't it?

crazy horse
11-06-2002, 02:16 PM
While were on the subject of twisters, This shot shows a set of carbs that I hadn't seen before on any merc engine that I can recall.

Raceman
11-06-2002, 04:49 PM
Crazy, I've seen those carbs in pictures before, although never a real set. I think Sam has another picture of them also. Seems like the name started with an M, like Murray or Murphey.

crazy horse
11-06-2002, 05:16 PM
They must be kinda rare then. They look like they had to have a differant manifold than the TC3A carbs? RM, Do you know if they were a single barrel?

Raceman
11-06-2002, 05:22 PM
Crazy, it's my understanding that they had an oval shaped butterfly in one single throat, but this is heresay. I never knew they existed until several years ago. I suspect they were prototyped on only one or no more than a few engines, and never widely used.

Raceman
11-06-2002, 05:26 PM
While I'm scanning pictures, Jeff, this is the only style T2 housing I've ever seen. It's got 2 holes in the rear, right above the adapter, probably 2" in diameter, maybe 2 1/4. I've got one that's been hogged into a large oval and another that's got a third hole above the other 2 going all the way into the tuner, to help a V Bottom get on top, but the two hole like this is the only thing I've ever seen stock.

Mark75H
11-06-2002, 06:26 PM
No, my only pic is that same one.

Factory stuff, not for sale.

As I posted elsewhere, there were 2 teams working on the original Twister stuff. The square carb guys were a little ahead on the exhaust tuning or something. The square throat carbs didn't work well. When things were combined into one team, the best ideas from each team, those ideas went to production Twisters.

Jeff_G
11-07-2002, 10:33 AM
Ok guys, I am told that there were about 3 different T2 mid sections and numerous tuner styles.
The Pic with the weird carbs, they were about 1976 and were made by Mercury and have Mercarb on them. Only the factory guys ever got them and very limited numbers. Earl Bentz, Seebold, maybe Thornton and Fountain. Only about 3 to 6 sets were made. They didn't run very well. The motor was called the C-6 the carbs bolted directly to the reed cages without the intake the Tillotsons had. They supposedly ran on the T2X not Ts although the picture shows them on a T2 with the cowl mounts. Maybe a prototype in the picture, or maybe raced with the T2X.
The T2 only came from Mercury with the 6 carb set up. I think Mercury may have had a 3 carb set up with the T2X.

Raceman
11-07-2002, 03:03 PM
Jeff, what's the source of the information on the different T2 mids? I can't recall any mention of differences in em, but I didn't get real interested in boat racing until about 74. We went to Miami for the first time in 75 and I think that was my first big time race, although there could've been one in Eufaula before and there were numerous backyards before and after that time also. We also got in the habit of flyin' to St. Louis every year. By the time I became a traveling fan, the stackers were all gone and the T2's were all privateers. The T3's were getting in the hands of some people and some of the big name racers seemed to be switching back and forth between T2X powerheads and T3's. I remember Buck Thornton showing somewhere with a T3 and the canopy on the boat was about 6" taller than the motor. Anyhow, the T2's were old news, so I didn't even take many pictures of them or the few remaining Twister 1's.

It's always interesting when new information surfaces on that old stuff, so I'm always curious as to the reliability of the source.

Jeff_G
11-07-2002, 05:40 PM
Can't tell you, I'd have to kill ya!

He owns a set of the C-6 carbs! I'm trying to get them now. I also got a bunch of T2 stuff from him until he has almost nothing left, also XS. He has been involved in racing from the 60's I guess and has an encyclopedic memory of the old and new stuff. If I ever run into a problem or question he's the first I go to. Had a Mercury dealership in the 70's and has won MANY National Championships in his boats. He wishes to remain anon. doesn't want the calls and visits. You know how that is but he is reliable. I also know where the 2nd style T2 mid is and am going to try and take a pic maybe this weekend. Jeff

Mark75H
11-07-2002, 08:49 PM
Jeff, you have to get us good pictures of those carbs, too!

Please ask your source about the 1971 race motors ... did they have any specific designation? Who raced the first six carb motor? Did he ever see the 9 carb motor? What does he recall about the cow bell Twisters? Were any sold to customers or were they strictly factory jobs like the the rectangular carb motors?

My source confirms the carbs were in house Mercarbs, but he was working on motors with Tillotson TC3A's.

Let me go over some time line stuff:

1973 OMC Strangler/Stinger looper V-6 prototype racer
1974 Merc T-3

Date on that picture from Popular Mechanics ... December 1972; picture probably taken in mid summer 1972.

I'm certain there was no more development of inline motors after the end of 1973.

crazy horse
11-07-2002, 08:59 PM
I'm with Sam, I would love to see some shots of those carbs and the linkage setup. BIG TIME!

Raceman
11-07-2002, 10:07 PM
Sam, I'm pretty sure you're right on the time line of the T3's. There were several at Miami in 75 with the red stripes. I've got pictures from ealier with the BIG T3 on the cowl, but never saw one of these motors in the flesh, so they must've been a year earlier. The T2X was done AFTER the first T3's. I'm not sure if you'd consider that a development of the inlines, or just an adaptation to the T3 housing, but in any case, when the first V6's were built, Merc wasn't quite ready to scrap the 6 carb inlines.

T2x
11-07-2002, 10:39 PM
I ran both the three ring and two ring t2x's. The T-3 block never fit under the T2x cowl so Buck Thornton must have been running a turbocharged T-3 with an oversized cowl. There also never was a three carb T2x.....but a stock powerhead would fit under the cowling as a straight bolt up.

Finally I recall two different t-2 center sections and 2 T-2x housings as well....(The second had extra stud holes and wrench hollows).

The crescent gearcases required this. In the later years we frequently ran t-2x's and t-3's in separate race heats in separate classes....on the same boat and center sections.

T2x

P.S the T2x's had significantly more mid range and top end than the t-2's..........

Raceman
11-07-2002, 11:02 PM
T2X, I think you mis read my comments about the cowls. Buck's boat had a very tall rear boat cowl, which we called the doghouse back then. It stood high above the T3 engine cowl. When he came with the short engine cowl there was no question that he'd changed from the T2X to the T3.

I also don't believe that a T2X ever left the factory with a crescent gearcase. I think they all had the 6 bolt housings and SSM's, just as the first T3's did, as opposed to the later 8 bolts. As a matter of fact, I distinctly remember the change to the 8 bolt, because the 6 bolt I bought at St. Louis was the same thing the factory boats had at the time. If there were exceptions, I sure never saw them at the APBA nationals or St. Louis from 75 foward. I've never seen a picture since with a crescent gearcase on one of those engines either.

Mark75H
11-07-2002, 11:04 PM
Raceman, I'm not certain of the timeline on the T2x/T-3. Are you saying the T-3 raced before the T-2x or just that the T-3 was in development before the T-2x was released?

X, are you saying that type IV and type VI SSM's fit under an alternate T-2 mid?

Since you are here now, what is your recollection of the cow bell Twisters?

Raceman
11-07-2002, 11:21 PM
"Raceman, I'm not certain of the timeline on the T2x/T-3. Are you saying the T-3 raced before the T-2x or just that the T-3 was in development before the T-2x was released?"

I'm not sure of that difference. There were some T3 prototypes running around somewhere before I went to the first APBA nationals. My Merc friend always said the T3 was first. Looking at the housing and adapter seems to make this obvious. Whether the T3 was just a prototype or a production race motor at the time the T2X was released, I don't know.

There's so much mis information floating around now based largely on people's memory, it's hard to say for certain how some of these things went down time wise. An old racer stated at Jasper last year with absolute certainty that he used to turn his 1500XS 9200 in race trim. Of course any brief burst like that would send the small inline rods through the sides of the block.

crazy horse
11-07-2002, 11:42 PM
OVER 9 grand with a inline! I think I would run out to the surplus store and get me a flak jacket. Cause you gonna need it.

T2x
11-08-2002, 11:39 PM
You know it's funny, I was on OSO for 6 months before anybody had a clue what my user name meant.................

The T2x was on the race course about a year before the T-3's...raced. Certainly the common center section indicated that the t-3's existed in engineering......Plant 6.

The crescent gearcase...............I'm thinking.........your correct...they never came from the factory on a T2x....but we ran them interchangeably as the V-6 "conversion" period occurred. I do recall changing units at some races for gear ratio changes and only having the 1:1 ratio in the older units.

1:1's weren't good for much anyway.......unless it was a LOOOOONG course.

T2x

T2x
11-08-2002, 11:47 PM
One of my last T2x races.........Welland, Ontario 1977 or thereabouts............. We had built up a two ring powerhead with a very hush hush metal surfacing procedure on the bearings rings and pistons........ When you rotated the powerhead (plugs out) on the splined crank stand it spun endlessly as if it had no pistons at all in it.... We put her on my sprint Moli....and broke her in for 1 1/2 hours ( that's all you needed with 2 rings).

First full throttle test run, I remember getting comfortable and thinking...MAN this feels good.....a glance at the Tach ...........8600RPM's!!!!!! and climbing.......... as my foot lifted......that little "burp" we all hate indicated that the powerhead was history....but, that's as close to 9000 as I ever saw on an inline....and I didn't make it.

T2x

Jeff Lytle
11-09-2002, 12:07 AM
Were you a Canadian Merc. Factory Driver or an independant?
Ever run in Picton? Valleyfield?
I used to hang around the Inboard circuit as a kid with my Dad; Al Lytle--Regatta Announcer Extraordinare'. I used to go to the races in Welland with him too. We probably know alot of the same people, alot of them have passed on now.
Spencer Dunn
Tom Wood
Roger Wood
Freddie Wolf
Mark Rotharmel
Oley Berkis
Murray Fiest
Larry Rucker
Bill and Fiona Hodgson

Did you run CBF or APBA?? Inquiring minds need to know!!

:cool:

Raceman
11-09-2002, 05:45 AM
I can't remember the exact time line of the T3/T2X, mostly because it's been a long time and it was a relatively new hobby for me then. I do know that either Billy Seebold or Buck Thornton sold me a 1:1 SSM off one of the boats at Eufala. He said they were running 14/15's only then and didn't use the 1:1's for anything but kilos. This was after I had the first 12" housing, so I'd guess '76. Whichever year it was, I'd never seen a crescent gearcase and all the factory boats still had the SSM's. The Merc High Perf Catlogues still show the SSM's on the Formula 2 race motors (120's) in both 78 and 79, although by 78 the picture for the Formula 1's had either a IV or VI case on it.

In 1974 I bought an 18' SuperSidewinder from the local Merc dealer. It was a holdover 73 and I'd been looking at it for some time. I can't remember whether this picture was on the wall when I looked at the boat the first time in 73, but it was there in 74 when I picked it up, because I tried hard to make the dealer throw it in with the boat. When I went to Miami in '75 with the guys from this same Merc store, all the factory boats had the red T3/1750XS stickers. This picture shows the earlier blue/black stickers 73/4/5 style. I never saw a boat with the large T3 on the cowl in anything but a picture. I do remember the Merc guys telling me that these engines were in Miami the year before and there was speculation earlier that they were opposed 6's instead of V6's. Everybody thought the cowl was too small for a V and Merc wasn't talkin'. By 75 at least, the cat was out of the bag.

Raceman
11-09-2002, 05:52 AM
Jeff, in looking for the early T3 picture I also ran across this one. This is obviously one of the other T2 housings you were talking about. I've never seen one of these on a boat an had forgotten this picture.

Raceman
11-09-2002, 05:56 AM
Well, the picture doesn't show as well on the post, maybe because I cut the clarity trying to minimize the file size. Anyhow, this housing is closed on the rear like the early BP's and Twister/Twister1's. Of course the T2 powerhead wouldn't bolt to the other housings with the bolt pattern being different.

Raceman
11-09-2002, 06:07 AM
"You know it's funny, I was on OSO for 6 months before anybody had a clue what my user name meant................."

If it were not for the fact that somebody brought your screen name to my attention, I'd have probably never looked at the Offshore Only website, but it got my curiosity up. I actually used the T2X handle here in the very early days of playing on this site, long before the new format and registration.

While we're on the T2X subject, I desperately need one more T2X powerhead adapter. Any idea's on a source?????

T2x
11-09-2002, 01:48 PM
Hi Jeff:

Boy....tough crowd you guys have here. By way of intro...... my resume' follows:

Started racing at 9 years of age...1956

raced on Glastron, Eltro and Merc teams on and off from 1964 through 1981...... with one short stint running OMC's in 1967.

For a time I was on the Canadian Merc team under Bob Paterson
in spite of the fact that I lived in the US....... I was actually closer to that circuit and they needed drivers at the time. I raced with Spencer, Mark, and Oley.....Mark is a friend to this day...and I miss Spencer. I ran FE,FF, SI,SJ,FJJ, SJJ, UU, T, Mod U, SST, SST 120, etc etc Molinari's, Seebold's, Milesmasters, Glastron moli's, Sidewinders, Glastron vees, Allison vees (and Flat bottoms), Eltro vees, Switzers, Lone Star Tritons, and Powercats.......................

Later, we (George Linder and I) created the Shadow Cat for offshore racing and ultimately I started ConQuest Marine building custom one off offshore race cats combining wood and fibreglass composites with George's designs and master craftsman Ken Adams. I raced Shadow cats ands vees in offshore....and of course test drove the Conquests......The most notable being the 35 and 48 foot Jesse James cats.

Later I helped start the Lavin Safety foundation, in memory of my friend, Mark Lavin, who was killed in the 35' Jesse James in Key West in 1986.

From 1982 until last year I was color commentator on many offshore racing telecasts.

My most significant boating life changing experience was seeing a Craig Cat with twin 100's race a Glaspar G-3 with a single and blow its doors off in 1962 on a Sunday morning in Merrick Long Island.....that made the outboard hydros I had been fooling with look irrelevant...and my life was defined thereafter.

I still bleed Mercury black...and I'm an outboard guy. Finished Mercury outboard school in Secaucus NJ in 1965.

Do I qualify?

T2x

P.S......I'm also one of the guys restoring a wing Switzer

Originally posted by Jeff Lytle
Were you a Canadian Merc. Factory Driver or an independant?
Ever run in Picton? Valleyfield?
I used to hang around the Inboard circuit as a kid with my Dad; Al Lytle--Regatta Announcer Extraordinare'. I used to go to the races in Welland with him too. We probably know alot of the same people, alot of them have passed on now.
Spencer Dunn
Tom Wood
Roger Wood
Freddie Wolf
Mark Rotharmel
Oley Berkis
Murray Fiest
Larry Rucker
Bill and Fiona Hodgson

Did you run CBF or APBA?? Inquiring minds need to know!!

:cool:

Raceman
11-09-2002, 04:48 PM
Which Mark????

Bruce Washburn
11-09-2002, 06:13 PM
The first TII I ever saw was in Miami in 72. they called the engine a C-6. Herring came down and drove the boat in the S calss. Sirois beat him with a factory T1. They will still sorting out the engine at that time. The last T2x's were fingerported. some also had the powerports like a 150xs. I have seen both the thin two ring pistons like they used in the Mod 50 engines and also a set of single rings. I think the four carb manifold that Jeff is thinking of was made out of pieces from the standard manifold and was not factory. If I remember correctly Jim Merten's son Jeff ran it in formula 100 in Nasville in the early 80's and dusted Ackermans V-4. He also turned some lap times that would have put him in the middle of the Champ boats at that time. I did help a friend set up a similar set up in the late 80's that won a couple of sprint nationals. When the t2x is right they were a great motor.

T2x
11-09-2002, 07:42 PM
Raceman:

Rotharmel................

I originally used the T2x moniker on Race boats.rec about 5 years ago.....and I am looking for a pair of T2x's myself......for the Wing.

Jeff:

I did , in fact, race at both Picton and Valleyfield and I remember your dad's announcing clearly.............." Here comes JUUUUUULES Le Bouef......IN the ZOOOOOOOMERANG" You gotta love it! My business partner at that time drove Grand Prix Hydros as well
as flat bottoms....for Warren Wilhelm and Tony Rodriguez.

I had the privelege of working with another Maestro, Dick Crippen for many years....and he made the inboard races at Lake Maggiore amazing as well....He and your dad were probably the two best live announcers of all time.

Of course for live to tape coverage from a helicopter with the doors off at 120 mph.....................that loud mouth Luhrs is still the best:p

One more thing............ I was both a CBF and APBA member and served on the joint Canadian, USA, Mexican North American Championship Commission with Bob Nordskog, Joe Giambrone, Charlie Strang, and Don Lostumbo, as well as a large contingent of Mexican delegates....... one of our meetings lasted about 5 days in Mexico city where I found out how to hug a commode.......


T2x

Raceman
11-09-2002, 07:50 PM
Why the X's on the Wing instead of the 15" motors? Seems like the whackin' on the transom would hurt the originality and the boat canopy's might look tall then too.

T2x
11-09-2002, 08:08 PM
The 20 foot wing was capable of handling triples....so the extra HP won't hurt.....The t2x center section is probably more readily available than the T1 hardware......in addition I know from experience that the trim worked a LOT better on the T2x........... and Stackers caused certain towns to ban OPC racing due to the noise....plus they had lousy midrange......and I love the T2x engine. It is a little bit of a stretch in time but 35 years later.....who cares. There's an old guy with a 1937 i/b racing runabout at Clayton running a new VW super vee 4 banger and a Herring prop.....He's about 90 and claims the boat is now about 50 mph faster than it was when he won the "championship" in 1938.

Finally, I have to race Skiffnbuck at Clayton in two years and ......I hate to lose.;) I just have to remember to use the "good red gas".

T2x

T2x
11-09-2002, 08:11 PM
Did anybody else notice that the Molinari at the top of this page has Ride Guide steering instead of cable?

T2x

Mark75H
11-09-2002, 08:19 PM
That was the point of that particular picture being posted. Look at the mid section as Raceman has been pointing out...it's a BP type...no ears for steering bars to hook cables and pulleys to. It also has the cast in pattern to mount the fishing motor type dress cover that hides the motor studs.

As we know that mid section and that powerhead ... they should be a conflict... you would have to leave out one stud on the exhaust side to do that.

Going by the Italian Tricolor on the boat and the number, it appears to be Renato's boat from Havasu in 1972. So it would be a factory motor. Odd, huh?

T2x
11-09-2002, 08:40 PM
I don't think 554 was Renato's number.........maybe, but I don't recall it being three digits. Molinari's in those days had a lot of Italian graphics...to wit "Scafo Angelo Molinari" appeared on many. and Mikey Downard called his Checkmates "Mother's Worry" after the Big Daddy Roth hot rod cartoons of the time. When he joined the Mercury Team he named his Molinari "Momma Impenzieri"

But.........I think that motor is your original C-6 not T2...... It makes sense with the special (old) steering arangement.

T2x

Mark75H
11-09-2002, 08:47 PM
Well, what ever it is, it does say Twister II on it

If 554 wasn't Renato's number there are a heck of a lot of pictures in Merc's archives and magazines with the wrong caption.

Pictures of him in Europe have a 2 digit number (32, I think)

T2x
11-09-2002, 08:56 PM
Okay, but I remember him being 32, Cesar Scotti 33 or 34, Jeff Briggs was 36 I think...... Senior moment. I didn't see a lot of Renato in US races....so I stand corrected.......

I'm feeling....."Old" and "Blue"...about 190 years old;)

T2x

At one time my number was 1000 after the first 100 Merc.
Later changed to my designated 351.........I think.

Mark75H
11-09-2002, 08:57 PM
Here he is standing on the front of that boat. You can only see part of the first 5

But now the boat has cable steering...because I had a senior moment...second picture is a year earlier

T2x
11-09-2002, 08:58 PM
Mark 75:

My computer does not show "Twister II" on the cowling. Where is it?

T2x

T2x
11-09-2002, 09:05 PM
No way it was the same boat.......Even then he changed boats 2-3 times/year...But you are right he obviously had a US number with a 5 in it.....go ahead rub it in.

He was a magnificent driver....but I will always believe that Billy was better.

Renato later tried building offshore cats...and they basically stunk up the race course...... Funny, the two best tunnel builders of that time Molinari and later Seebold couldn't get their ocean designs to work...but Cougar, who made fair OPC tunnels blazed the trail for offshore cat design.....go figure.

T2x

Mark75H
11-09-2002, 09:38 PM
Sorry for the lo-res image on the thread. On the back, it says "Super Six" and "Twister II".

Dave S
11-09-2002, 10:34 PM
Hi T2X, you say that you used to race Eltros? I bought an Eltro from my boss's son who bought the boat from Sonny Werner. In fact, the family bought all 3 Eltros. These boats were 15 foot V bottoms with a 3/4 inch thick bottom. The same boat maybe??? I used to play around in Merrick Bay in the 1970's. I used to run a Mark 20H conversion in the Bay. I also ran a BP in Freeport, you could hear it 5 miles away. I bet you couldn't do that these days. So who won the race? The G3? Also hey Sam, is it possible the motor pictured above used the Twister I block and exhaust housing with 6 carbs? Also what is the bolt pattern on that square carb motor? :cool:

Raceman
11-09-2002, 10:43 PM
Dave, it's impossible to say for sure what prototype engines had in the early stages. The picture that I posted of the T2 says 1400 in the top margin right above "Super Six". Of course 1400's had the newer bolt pattern, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this engine did. I'm going to look at the picture carefully with magnification and see if I can determine which bolt pattern.

T2x
11-10-2002, 01:03 AM
Hi Dave:

The Cat won by about 15 mph....G3's run 48 mph... with 65 hp they leap about 2 feet up with each 48 mph lope...with 80 hp about 4 feet and with 100 hp about 5 feet.......

I used to race with and against Sonny Werner and, in later years, his son Wesley.

Eltros were made by John Ives and Bob D'Arganion....who previously had worked for Raveau....... The boats were built in the old Islip train station...... and the 20' vee bottom wooden ferries they built in 1965 or so are still running back and forth to Fire Island.

George Linder and I drove their last twin engine wooden 18's and I drove their first 16 foot fiberglass vee....with twin 1250 bp's.
That hull is still around as the 16 Superboat.........Yep...you heard right....that little hull----with twin 1250 BP's.

I also worked for K&K Outboard once upon a time (I was no doubt the worst mechanic Kenny Sr. ever had....but we had some amazing times)

T2x

Raceman
11-10-2002, 05:04 AM
Wasn't G3 a Glaspar instead of Glastron?

T2x
11-10-2002, 11:28 AM
Yes G-3's were Glaspars.

T2x

Jeff_G
11-10-2002, 11:56 PM
Hey Rich, to go with your boat builders going offshore who made the best transition? I would vote for Ken Adams Sr. Made an outstanding tunnel for OPC then made all those great offshore boats, you know Ken? :D :D

What do you know about Skater doing a F2 V bottom in offshore?

Raceman I saw a T2 mid that looked like the one in your pic that had the rear opened, welded again then cut open again. Also looked at a T1? mid (for the 1250 1350's) that was run with a t2 using a special adaptor! Homemade stuff.

BTW I need a Merc Ride Guide Rack 13' to fit an old Norris Craft 1960. Anyone have one, Must be in excellent condition.

Almost forgot, in the last days of the Formula 100 class at least one of the boats ran his at 8600 and sometimes exceded 9,000! I got this directly from the owner. That was using the T2 block I believe.
Later they even experimented with using 2 of the c-6 square carbs and 2 of the tillotsons with special adaptors! A lot of experimenting. The T2's were great on the old long courses like the 1 2/3 or longer but the v-4''s had them on the short course. They wouldn't keep up today with a xs on the 1/2 to 3/4 mile courses we run.

Firestarter
11-11-2002, 10:32 AM
Bob Paterson, Wow I never thought to ask him...........anything at all. He is a member of my ski club, I used to race, then coach with his daughter Mel................before she found that cars were faster than skiis.
I will be seeing Bob in a few weeks (soon as ski season starts) and most every weekend their after. Their are a lot of chair lift rides for a lot of questions. He is an avid skier as was Olie Berkis.
Jeeze Fred Wolf..............can ask him too, and Mark Rotharmel.
When I see these guys, I will ask them if they know of any old motors around................their are a lot of barns with a lot of old race boats up here, it took me about 30 min to find a complete running 650XS, and less time to find a 75 Stinger/ with factor thru transom trim.
I will pool my resources, and see what I can find.

T2x welcome to the board.

RT

Raceman
11-11-2002, 11:09 AM
Rob, in all your rootin' around, I sure need a 650XS front cowl (faceplate) A whole cowl with decent stickers would be even better, and my 700X cowl is pretty junky too.

Raceman
11-11-2002, 11:13 AM
Jeff, it sounds to me like you've been snoopin' around at Troy's down in Augusta. He had a square carb powerhead and a BP mid adapted to the later inline bolt pattern also.

You guys are lucky to be around where some of that stuff was. After the 2 and 4 cyl race stuff of the 50's and early 60's, I don't think there was ever another serious boat racer within a hundred miles of here.

Firestarter
11-11-2002, 11:28 AM
Raceman, I am also in need of a cowl, this one is a duct tape special.

RT

Raceman
11-11-2002, 11:38 AM
Do you mean a cowl or faceplate? The cowl for the 650XS is just a stock 3 cyl clamb shell with XS stickers. The 700X cowl that I have (1 piece lift off) is has pop rivited sheet metal and way too many holes.

Jeff_G
11-11-2002, 07:59 PM
Norris, haven't hit Augusta..... yet!

Jeff_G
11-11-2002, 08:29 PM
Norris, haven't hit Augusta..... yet!

T2x
11-12-2002, 09:28 PM
Jeff G

I know Ken adams well.....He was the Adams in the Linder, Luhrs Adams Conquest Cats....

And he made a pretty good tunnel boat too......As a matter of fact I think he made a vee bottom offshore boat back in the 70's.

RT........nice to be here...thanks

T2x