Who built the first cleaver prop?

[T2x]

All of this talk on the "Hot Multi's" thread took my mind to the 3 successive prop sources of my youth.....

Michigan, Culver, and Record/Radice.

The question that popped into my mind was the origin of the cleaver. I believe the first example I ever saw was in a boat show, but I also remember the rusty 2 blade cleavers on all of the inboard hydros back then. Does that mean that the Unlimited hydro guys came up with the concept? They seemed to lead the development for all of the other inboard classes. I know that there was a lot of "Kam (Cam) back" development going on in racing design in the late 50's and 60's. Was this also the genesis for the cleaver concept.

This is probably where Sam Cullis will take over the conversation.

T2x

[jackie wilson]

Rolla used to race Alfa engined 3 pointer inboards-----so being biased --------i bet he had something to do with cleavers.
My first american prop was a "CARY", never followed it up, so i don't think i thought much of it.
Will ask son number one if he knows about the cleaver.

[afr]

t2x you should ask how did the name cleaver come about and when

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/1843propeller.jpg/435px-1843propeller.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/1843propeller.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller

[afr]

also see
http://www.boatbuilding.com/article.php/designofpropellers1

[T2x]

Nothing there regarding who created the first cleaver. I always felt that the term "cleaver" came from the concept of a meat cleaver which has a thick abrupt trailing edge and a sharp narrow blade. Another meaning might be that the round trailing edge has been "cleavered" or cut off the blades.

[afr]

yea theres nothing on it other then you can see in the 1800,s they had a meat cleaver shape already going
must just be a nick name that stuck same as the nick name screw i guess
there is no answer to this mystery

[willabee]

...... i guess there is no answer to this mystery

Sure there is, bet you'll remember......

It was late 50's/early 60's, the guys first name was Ward. He had a couple of sons follow his profession, Wally and his younger brother Theodore. Seems like Theodore became the most remembered of the family. He had some kind of catchy nickname, may have started with a "B", but it escapes me at the moment. Leave it to me to forget the doggone nickname. :D

Presenting the Cleaver's.....

[stokernick]

:reddevil::reddevil:NOAH:reddevil::reddevil::reddevil:

[Dave S]

HeeHee Sam the Cleaver Beaver......

[afr]

:reddevil::reddevil:NOAH:reddevil::reddevil::reddevil:

noah ran hard a ground hes going to need new screws shafts struts and rudder

lmao

[FUJIMO]

Sure there is, bet you'll remember......

It was late 50's/early 60's, the guys first name was Ward. He had a couple of sons follow his profession, Wally and his younger brother Theodore. Seems like Theodore became the most remembered of the family. He had some kind of catchy nickname, may have started with a "B", but it escapes me at the moment. Leave it to me to forget the doggone nickname. :D

Presenting the Cleaver's.....
LOL, Willabee, you crack me up. "Who cares" who made the first cleaver. Seems like someones always writing a book, literally, lol.

[T2x]

Willabee: When did Mercury add cleavers to the prop truck? George Linder tells a story of buying a set from Record and putting them on his Eltro with twin SSM's at Havasu. He claims that Uncle Carl asked to borrow them and he got them back a couple of months later. At this point I think that Record may be the original source of cleavers since most of the Inboard wheels that I saw back then were also from Record. My guess is that the cleaver hit the race scene about 1960....but I could be completely wrong.....
T2x

[Mark75H]

I don't think I've seen the solid square backed cleaver shape on a shear pin smooth bore finished Merc prop. The "cleaver" type smooth bore Merc props for sale to "customer" racers appear to be finished from regular round ear castings. I think customers could buy traditional square back pointy, made from a cleaver dedicated casting Merc cleavers as soon as the SSM was available.

Prior to that, Record, Radice and Litton were making cleavers from their own castings.

I think it is pretty clear that Unlimiteds were using them in the middle 1950's. Jones helped Entrop make cleavers from round ears for the 1958 speed record. Merc immediately had props based on the speed record prop for sale. These had a cupped trailing edge rather than the pointy & square trailing edge.

It sort of depends on what the definition of cleaver is

[lilabner]

The first Speedmaster cleavers I saw were from Chuck Mersereau and Dave Craig..Chucks were 2 blade Carys, 17", and the straight edge slanted forward instead of to the rear..They were steel, not stainless, and rusted up pretty bad if you didn't take care of them..I ran them on his old stack cat in Blue Ridge, Ga in 1963. No one else used them except Dave..Being an old 266 hydro driver, he knew boat racing. Everyone else used the 2 blade mercury props, usually 16"..The Carys were great in the straights, but with the stackers, turns would bog you down and the non stackers could get by. I had the HP and speed, but ended up third. Boat would run a little over 80. Motors were merc 800's from the Lake.

[lilabner]

the drag racers loved them in 66-67..

[Holeman]

Here is the link where you can find lots of information about that.

http://www.stvowners.com/proptest.htm

[Mark75H]

Thanks for the link ... I did not find the Hot Boat July 1997 STV prop comparison article to have any historical info on cleavers

It is a good article about finding the right prop for a particular boat

[T2x]

Here is the link where you can find lots of information about that.

http://www.stvowners.com/proptest.htmThanks for the link. It is very interesting but has nothing to do with the question. All of the props tested are much newer than the era I am inquiring about.

Thanks anyway......

T2x

[T2x]

After thinking a little more about this, the first MK75H props I saw looked like the old DSH cleavers, just bored out for the larger shaft.

Thanks Jim...... We are starting to narrow down the time period. Now who or what was Kamic?

[Mark75H]

KAMINC was Kiekhaefer's original accessory/aftermarket brand before "Quicksilver".

K iekhaefer A ero M arine INC


At some points in time KAMINC was a holding company that owned Mercury. Carl reactivated it as "KAM" to build the offshore stuff when he left Brunswick

[Mark75H]

I think I may have seen some D cleavers but did not realize how old they might be.

I might even have one like Jim mentioned, bored out for 3/4"

I'll look when I am home

[willabee]

Willabee: When did Mercury add cleavers to the prop truck? ..... My guess is that the cleaver hit the race scene about 1960....but I could be completely wrong.....
T2x

You normally are (wrong), but that aside, I have some info on the subject. :thumbsup:

I just got off the phone with one of those "super nice prop guys" we were talking about the other day, Bob "Boob" Hetzel. Before he tried to answer any of my questions, he made sure I remembered that he is older than me and forgets more these days and has a back pain and his you know what doesn't work the way it should, etc., etc., and etc..... wish I had called the old geezer collect! :D

Boob says that back in 57, Merc had some Rolla Record cleavers that they did some testing with. That's the first he recalls seeing any cleavers around the Merc facility. He thinks the first Merc cleavers were 2 blade, 21 pitch splined for the SSM, whatever year they came out. He doesn't think Merc had any for the shear pin speedmaster.

He recalls making low rake 3 blade right hand cleavers in 70 for the Paris boats, but they proved to be the wrong way to go. The low rake cleavers couldn't keep the nose up and the boats wanted to dive. I remember that Merten did take a hard nose dive and damaged a kidney. I'd say that would put cleavers in the prop truck in 1971.

He went on to say the high rake 15º cleavers were built after that Paris race. A couple of years after that, he thinks that Bob Hering convinced engineering that a left hand prop would help them in the turns. That's when a heavier shaft and other internal changes were made to put some endurance into the gearcase and the left hand high rake 3 blade cleavers were produced. Sounds to me like that was about 1974.

That's what I have for now, this should be interesting. Above all else, remember, don't shoot the messenger! :mad:

[jackie wilson]

unless he's old---cranky and looks like Don Ameche in drag----------then i'll supply the ammunition.
HAPPY NEW YEAR WILLO !!!!!!!!!!

[T2x]

You normally are (wrong), but that aside, I have some info on the subject. :thumbsup:

I just got off the phone with one of those "super nice prop guys" we were talking about the other day, Bob "Boob" Hetzel. Before he tried to answer any of my questions, he made sure I remembered that he is older than me and forgets more these days and has a back pain and his you know what doesn't work the way it should, etc., etc., and etc..... wish I had called the old geezer collect! :D

Boob says that back in 57, Merc had some Rolla Record cleavers that they did some testing with. That's the first he recalls seeing any cleavers around the Merc facility. He thinks the first Merc cleavers were 2 blade, 21 pitch splined for the SSM, whatever year they came out. He doesn't think Merc had any for the shear pin speedmaster.

He recalls making low rake 3 blade right hand cleavers in 70 for the Paris boats, but they proved to be the wrong way to go. The low rake cleavers couldn't keep the nose up and the boats wanted to dive. I remember that Merten did take a hard nose dive and damaged a kidney. I'd say that would put cleavers in the prop truck in 1971.

He went on to say the high rake 15º cleavers were built after that Paris race. A couple of years after that, he thinks that Bob Hering convinced engineering that a left hand prop would help them in the turns. That's when a heavier shaft and other internal changes were made to put some endurance into the gearcase and the left hand high rake 3 blade cleavers were produced. Sounds to me like that was about 1974.

That's what I have for now, this should be interesting. Above all else, remember, don't shoot the messenger! :mad:

Aside from your quote about me being wrong (something that you are obviously wrong about :D ), I really appreciate your effort here. This puts the Cleaver source back in Italy, where Jackie thought it was, and I suspected. However. we need to find out if the Unlimited Hydro guys got theirs from Rolla as well. If so, that puts Rolla at the top of the food chain in race prop development IMHO. While there has been tremendous work done in the years since, that simple cleaver concept paved the way, unbroken, straight to the designs of today.

Happy New Year....Willa....and thanks.

[T2x]

KAMINC was Kiekhaefer's original accessory/aftermarket brand before "Quicksilver".

K iekhaefer A ero M arine INC


At some points in time KAMINC was a holding company that owned Mercury. Carl reactivated it as "KAM" to build the offshore stuff when he left Brunswick

Sam I knew what Kaminc was...it was the Kamic that threw me.

[Mark75H]

The famous rusty Record cleaver

[lilabner]

The first ones I saw and used, other than on a 266 hydro, were shear pin models on speedmasters..That would pre-date those. I will ask Dave Craig what his are when he gets back.

[Mark75H]

My cleaver family ...

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/The%20Cleavers/IMG_1793.jpg

The first Merc cleaver for SSM (released in April 1965) ... you can even read the 21 on it:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/The%20Cleavers/IMG_177721.jpg

Warren Litton's early 1960's cleaver ... with his then unique trailing edge treatment ... the latest Merc cleavers are very similar, 45 years later. You can see Litton believed in honkin' big blade area. Props like this came with the 1962-1965 McCulloch race motors.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/The%20Cleavers/IMG_1772.jpg

The 1958 Merc Mark75H type cleaver. You can see the telltale backwards "S" shape typical of props cast as regular round ears and cut down to be cleavers. Jones helped Entrop make this prop work at 110 mph with a propriding hydro.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/The%20Cleavers/IMG_1781.jpg


A "D" cleaver from the 1950's. Might be close to what Jim was talking about.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/The%20Cleavers/IMG_1786.jpg




A few more pics of the same props (different angles & light) and 2 others for smooth bore shear pin Speedmaster or 75H. One is stainless with has the diameters scored on it for reference, the other is chrome plated non-stainless. Both have very thin trailing edges.
http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh194/mark75h/The%20Cleavers/

[afr]

wow i aint seen any shear pin props in ages
very cool

[lilabner]

"My cleaver family " from 75H

So, mom and pop cleaver had a beautiful set of triplets that look like mom, then comes along a little bastard prop that is the opposite of dad..:D

did I get that right?

[stevebucknor1]

Nothing there regarding who created the first cleaver. I always felt that the term "cleaver" came from the concept of a meat cleaver which has a thick abrupt trailing edge and a sharp narrow blade. Another meaning might be that the round trailing edge has been "cleavered" or cut off the blades. It is really very important.

[Mark75H]

Return of the cleavers.

At least scroll back to post #28 and look at the pretty pictures ;)

[lilabner]

Return of the cleavers.

At least scroll back to post #28 and look at the pretty pictures ;)

At least scroll back to post 14 and pay attention: Mercury never had any until the splined ones Sam shows. They bought Carys from Italy for Chuck Mersereau. His props had the back or trailing straight edge leading forward. They called them reverse rake. I know because I ran them, in 62, not 63 as in the post. Dave Craig also ran them, with a straight edge, as well as most 266 inboard hydros in the late 50's early 60's, which Dave also ran, while most of you were just watching and wishing. They were not SS either. You had to actually take care of them. Dave still has his set, or at least one, shear pin, drilled to 5/16".

[FMP]

Had to, couldn't resist

[lilabner]

From The Vintage Hydroplanes...it sure looks like a cleaver. An old one at that. I bet Ron Jones would know where the first ones came from. Probably designed from an airplane prop.

Seen on John Nebelecky facebook page as a throwback thursday story:
This is a 266 that Joe Less built in his line of Mama’s Mink boats. As I recall, it was designed by engineers from Bell Aerospace, and built from aluminum. The boat ultimately required two rudders to turn well, and APBA put the keebosh on it, so Joe mounted it on the pole of his jib crane, where it remained for many years as sort of a local landmark. It was visible from the old Tonawanda pits back when we ran at Isle View Park. Although the picture of the boat is authentic, I suspect this is a composite with the boat overlaid on a rooster tail from Harold Bucholtz’ 266.

[FUJIMO]

At least scroll back to post 14 and pay attention: Mercury never had any until the splined ones Sam shows. They bought Carys from Italy for Chuck Mersereau. His props had the back or trailing straight edge leading forward. They called them reverse rake. I know because I ran them, in 62, not 63 as in the post. Dave Craig also ran them, with a straight edge, as well as most 266 inboard hydros in the late 50's early 60's, which Dave also ran, while most of you were just watching and wishing. They were not SS either. You had to actually take care of them. Dave still has his set, or at least one, shear pin, drilled to 5/16"....What Butch said. And yes, they were simply tempered steel.

[T2x]

From The Vintage Hydroplanes...it sure looks like a cleaver. An old one at that. I bet Ron Jones would know where the first ones came from. Probably designed from an airplane prop.

Seen on John Nebelecky facebook page as a throwback thursday story:
This is a 266 that Joe Less built in his line of Mama’s Mink boats. As I recall, it was designed by engineers from Bell Aerospace, and built from aluminum. The boat ultimately required two rudders to turn well, and APBA put the keebosh on it, so Joe mounted it on the pole of his jib crane, where it remained for many years as sort of a local landmark. It was visible from the old Tonawanda pits back when we ran at Isle View Park. Although the picture of the boat is authentic, I suspect this is a composite with the boat overlaid on a rooster tail from Harold Bucholtz’ 266.

and then Ocke Mannnefeldt "invented" this 30 + years later

[lilabner]

and then Ocke Mannnefeldt "invented" this 30 + years later

What goes around..yada yada yada..did he use a 3D printer?:D Are you sure George Barris didn't "invent" that? RIP George...

[lilabner]

Return of the cleavers.

At least scroll back to post #28 and look at the pretty pictures ;)

Sam,
Those are some pretty props..I bet this question will never be answered though. There were probably lots of guys cutting up props for more speed. We can only say thanks to them.

[FUJIMO]

http://www.outboardracing.com/images/IMAGE1554.JPG

[FUJIMO]

http://www.outboardracing.com/images/IMAGE1556.JPG

[T2x]

http://www.outboardracing.com/images/IMAGE1556.JPG
While I remember a number of Cary props on Long Island in my "yoot" , every one i saw was round eared. Linder had a set on the Carlson we rigged for him at K&K with SSM's and they were two bladed round ears. Earlier when I was in HS and used to haunt S&S Propeller in College Point, they had a number of round eared Carys come through for repair, but the only cleavers were inboard hydro Records from Italy.

[Magcat 62]

I Rode in that carlson at k&k i lll never for get it had 2 110 with speedmasters i was 16 back then kenny used cup our 2 blades with a ball peen hammer and it worked i ran omc he was merc guy i had a 14 carlson mod v4 90 to beat his glastron w\ 110 in-line the good ole days for sure only 2 prop guys columbian bronze and 0j.

[Magcat 62]

What goes around..yada yada yada..did he use a 3D printer?:D Are you sure George Barris didn't "invent" that? RIP George...
i believe they made them out wood first!