Olds 455 Rebuild Questions.

[ezobens]

Hi,>><O:p</O:p
I've read through most of the Olds 455 threads I could find out here but none of them totally answer some of my specific questions.
<O:p></O:p>
Here is my scenario:<O:p></O:p>
1976 CVX-20 with a 455 Olds.<O:p></O:p>
The motor has a knock (appears to be a rod knock) so the thing has to come out.<O:p></O:p>
Since the previous owner lunched it at one time (have receipts for reconditioned rods and a welded crank), my guess is that the crank is just toast and the rods probably aren't far behind.<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Since I don't want to do this again, I think I need to bite the bullet and re-build this thing properly.<O:p></O:p>
Considering non-machined Olds 455 cranks are pretty much unobtainium, I am leaning towards buying a new crank. It appears Eagle is the only one that is really making a reasonably priced crank for the 455.<O:p></O:p>
Of course, if I am buying a new crank, I will get new rods (also Eagle) and new pistons (block is still using the original pistons in the standard bore). For a couple bucks more, Eagle makes a kit that has a stroker crank (4.5" stroke), the H-Rods, bearings and Mahle pistons w/rings for a pretty good price.<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
My questions:<O:p></O:p>
Has anyone used the above combination in a marine application and what was the experience?<O:p></O:p>
Is there an advantage to going with the stroker set-up vs staying with the stock 4.25" crank (I want a strong motor but reliability is paramount over HP)?<O:p></O:p>
Can anyone explain in detail the whole "relief" grinding on Olds rods, the true purpose and would I need to do this on the Eagle H-rods as well (I've read a lot about it but nothing about what the purpose is or what the exact specs of this procedure are)?<O:p></O:p>
With this combo, I am debating if I should just run the stock heads (Ga) or use the Edelbrock Aluminum heads (Are there any cooling/expansion issues in the marine environment using aluminum heads with a cast iron block)? <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Since I am running the stock square Berkeley Jet exhaust manifolds, I'm not sure the added flow of the Edelbrock heads would be worth the expense?<O:p></O:p>
I already have the 10qt pan and the HV oil pump. I will not be running restrictors (makes no sense to starve the cam of oil with a HV pump?) and I will install oil drain-back fittings if I keep the stock heads.<O:p></O:p>
The cam is a Comp Cams unit that is commonly used for Jet boat applications but would consider another grind if someone can recommend something with less overlap (I don't care for the exhaust reversion with this cam and how it sucks the rubber exhaust flappers in- I want to keep the water OUT of the engine).<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
I am looking for advice from folks with real-world experience with this stuff vs hearsay if at all possible.<O:p></O:p>
I would like to understand not only how I need to put this together but why I am doing it.<O:p></O:p>
I appreciate everyone's time.<O:p></O:p>
Thanks!
Elm <O:p></O:p>

[Hamjet]

Elm,

Your best bet would be to post your question over at realoldspower.com. Post it under their engine/dyno section.

Lots of good info on Olds rebuilds, or you could contact Dick Miller of Dick Miller Racing, but he asks a fee for info but very knowlegable.

Wikus

[455maveric]

form what timanator has written you will need the restrictors you should get his article on the olds engine he wrote for hot boats years a go.

[boatermike]

purchase bbc hardware and shed the doubts

[ezobens]

purchase bbc hardware and shed the doubts
BBCs have their own quirks and shortcomings- I've owned both and prefer the BBO hands down.
I have no doubts that I can make the BBO reliable- I'm just an average engineer that wants to understand what needs to be done and why vs just blindly doing what Joe Mondello says as if he's the only person that can make an Olds reliable based on some overpriced bits he's come up with decades ago. The key to making any engine reliable is to understand the weaknesses and to address them accordingly.

[boatermike]

hands down , the olds does not measure up to chevy big or ford big, the only place it wins is price. way over the top on price with very limited selection.....................totally blows but thats what i got stuck with. having original equipment also seemed kinda cool to me. my boat is a time machine to 1974 and when i pull up in that ole pig i feel like elvis freekin presely. fat period of course

[OldSleekOlds]

There are 2 issues that you need to deal with.
1. The difference between a car engine and a marine engine.
2. The difference between an Olds and other marine engines.
How much do you already know about these 2 issues?
Are you looking for any specific hp range?

old

[ezobens]

There are 2 issues that you need to deal with.
1. The difference between a car engine and a marine engine.
2. The difference between an Olds and other marine engines.
How much do you already know about these 2 issues?
Are you looking for any specific hp range?

old

That's why I'm here-

1.) I've run BBOs in my cars for over 30 years with great success (I have a 70' W-30 that I rebuilt back in 1979 and is still running strong). I'm here to find out more specifics on what the differences are between the automotive vs marine specs.
It appears none of these differences have been formally published anywhere that I can find?
I understand for marine you need to run the pistons, rings and bearings at greater tolerances due to extreme temperature differentials and loads but I'd like to know specific clearances.
I know keeping oil to the crank is critical but I don't believe that restricting oil to the cam bearings is the best way to achieve this.
Having a 10qt pan with a HV pump, external oil cooler and proper oil drain back from the heads should be more than <link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/ELM/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style>adequate
2.) Not sure what value this is to my situation? I have a BBO and that will not change. Knowing the pros and cons of other marine engines makes for good conversation but isn't the information I need at this time.

I'm not looking for crazy power-
I want good power (400-450 HP would be all I would ever need) but most importantly, I want reliability.
Realistically, I would never rev this thing over 5K and even that would be in short bursts.
Anything over a 50-55 MPH top speed would be worthless with the CVX-20 hull design.
Elm

[OldSleekOlds]

I've been running Olds engines in Jetboats for over 25 years. I got fed up with durability issues about 10 years ago and decided to build my own Olds. I had a machine shop (now retired), the money, and the time. It took a lot of reading and lots of phone calls. I got lots of great information if I wanted to build an engine for drag racing. I read about guys who took their drag racing Olds engine (not limited to Olds) and put it in a Jetboat. Most lasted minutes at WOT. A few lasted a little longer. None survived living as a Marine engine. Most think a thermostat is a waste of money.
Here's what I ended up with.

455 .....030 over = 462
Balanced rotating assy
Forged pistons 10.25:1
Edelbrock heads
Harlandsharp rockers
Performer intake
Holly 930 cfm Marine carb
10 qt. oil pan
Restricters including push rods
Outside oil returns from rear of heads to pan
MSD ignition w/billet dist

Hardin log exhaust

Here's the Dyno sheet.

http://files.triton.net/old1/455_final.jpg

The Dyno sheet says "stock manifold"....not true. It was a Performer intake. The intake in the pic is a "Victor".

Here it is on the Dyno.

http://files.triton.net/old1/dyno_victor.jpg

I can post the cam specs if you want them.

If I was going to do it again, I would call this guy TIMINATOR 623-877-8553. He can tell you everything you need to know including why your exhaust system in gonna cost you 100 hp.

Old

[Hamjet]

I've been running Olds engines in Jetboats for over 25 years. I got fed up with durability issues about 10 years ago and decided to build my own Olds. I had a machine shop (now retired), the money, and the time. It took a lot of reading and lots of phone calls. I got lots of great information if I wanted to build an engine for drag racing. I read about guys who took their drag racing Olds engine (not limited to Olds) and put it in a Jetboat. Most lasted minutes at WOT. A few lasted a little longer. None survived living as a Marine engine. Most think a thermostat is a waste of money.
Here's what I ended up with.

455 .....030 over = 462
Balanced rotating assy
Forged pistons 10.25:1
Edelbrock heads
Harlandsharp rockers
Performer intake
Holly 930 cfm Marine carb
10 qt. oil pan
Restricters including push rods
Outside oil returns from rear of heads to pan
MSD ignition w/billet dist

Hardin log exhaust

Here's the Dyno sheet.

http://files.triton.net/old1/455_final.jpg

Here it is on the Dyno.

http://files.triton.net/old1/dyno_victor.jpg

I can post the cam specs if you want them.

If I was going to do it again, I would call this guy TIMINATOR 623-877-8553. He can tell you everything you need to know including why your exhaust system in gonna cost you 100 hp.

Old

I agree 100% with Old.

If I may add:

Bearing clearances imho should be 0.0030" - 0.0035 Rods and Mains.

Wikus

[TIMINATOR]

Sweet Olds has a good combo, that works, but is behind the current level of parts availability and knowledge. Anyone wants help, CALL ME, too much info for me to type, and questions that I would have to know to give good help. TRW/Seal Power pistons are on nationwide backorder til sometime in the Aug, sept time area. I have one lightly used set left. There are other brands available at a higher cost though. TIMINATOR

[Hamjet]

Sweet Olds has a good combo, that works, but is behind the current level of parts availability and knowledge. Anyone wants help, CALL ME, too much info for me to type, and questions that I would have to know to give good help. TRW/Seal Power pistons are on nationwide backorder til sometime in the Aug, sept time area. I have one lightly used set left. There are other brands available at a higher cost though. TIMINATOR

Timinator,

I would like to give you a call, but I live in South Africa. It will cost me a bundle in phone cost. I am in the process of essembling one of my Olds engines and would like to know if the things I have done is correct. Should I PM you or list the build here.

I don't want to high jack the thread.

Wikus

[455maveric]

Timinator did you ever get the DVD made i know i would like one

[TIMINATOR]

Was in a rear-ended totaled the other car that hit us accident. On limited duty, not much time. Somebody please post about article. must go now. TIMINATOR

[ezobens]

Impressive numbers! Very nice.. Would you mind posting the cam specs?
I understand the exhaust manifolds are my biggest bottleneck- I do have a set like you have in the picture, which are superior to the square Berkeley's I am running but I can't make them work in my CVX-20 (outlets would be below the waterline). I have a copy of Tim's write-up in Hot Boat and it appears you didn't do many of the things he listed (IE notched rods, the whole rear main/oil pump thing etc)?
If I could get similar ratings and reliability from mine, I'd be a happy camper!

[ezobens]

Was in a rear-ended totaled the other car that hit us accident. On limited duty, not much time. Somebody please post about article. must go now. TIMINATOR

Tim, did your accident just happen today?
My sympathies- I hope everyone is OK?

Please let me know when you are in a position to talk Olds- My project is in no rush for I will be doing this work over the coming winter. I just like getting my facts together in advance.
Regards,
Elm

[MBOWERS]

don't know much about the olds, however can tell you about the eagle rotating assmbly. I have ran the forged one on a small block 400 that are known for killing the crank. so what I did was get the eagle balanced kit then checked it. the balance was not so good +or - 4 grams so had it rebalnced but the trick is the person that balanced it needs damper and flex plate pistons wristpins and even the retainer clips. do it to +or- 1 gram. the 400 sbc is external balanced will guess the olds is the same you will be making it internal balanced that is the best way to go. then use splayed main caps and use main studs. I have turned that motor 9200 rpm and has not been touched for 5 years. now for the heads you can use brodax or some high dollar heads but we flowed a set of patriot heads and they flowed just what they said and looked good can't rember the numbers but the price was half of brodax. now here is the killer for a marine motor a boat moves foward back side to side then up and down the oil in the pan is all over the place most guys use an automotive oil pump and pan so you don't get even flo of oil to pickup that starves the motor for oil then you get a rod or main failure. you need to run a dry sump on the oil system.I have seen a lot of high dollar motors take a puke because of this. you have the right idea to do this eagle crank rods and look at the patriot heads and use studs on every thing you can and you can save some cash. but I can tell you that it will not be cheep to do it wright. if you need some help call Larry Sexton at Sexton Racing his # is 615-672-2056 he has been bulding racing motors sence the 60's and built them for Grumpy Jinkins and alot of the pro drag racers, and he wont give you a line of crap and knows how to make one live that is the key it is not hard to make big numbers on a dyno but do that for 100's of hours and that is. hope this will help

[boatermike]

wish you a speedy recover timnator.

[OldSleekOlds]

Impressive numbers! Very nice.. Would you mind posting the cam specs?
I understand the exhaust manifolds are my biggest bottleneck- I do have a set like you have in the picture, which are superior to the square Berkeley's I am running but I can't make them work in my CVX-20 (outlets would be below the waterline). I have a copy of Tim's write-up in Hot Boat and it appears you didn't do many of the things he listed (IE notched rods, the whole rear main/oil pump thing etc)?
If I could get similar ratings and reliability from mine, I'd be a happy camper!

Actually, I did everything that Tim recommended. In some cases slightly different, but no significant difference. Tim's article came along years after my engine was finished. Most of the info I used came from Mondello's Tech Manual. I also read everything I could get my hands on. I asked lots of questions. About $3K was spent on learning the hard way. When I listed the "My build" in the earlier post, it was ONLY to illustrate the basics. It does not come close to listing everything that was done. Tim's article is excellent. He has done more research on a MARINE OLDS than anybody else I have heard of. Most important is the fact that he is willing to share the info he has acquired. I did not expect that I would ever need the data I acquired during my "adventure". I did save everything, but it would take a huge effort to find and assemble it so it would have value to anybody else. I expect that Mondello (actually Lynn, the guy who bought it from Joe) took advantage of my ignorance. It was, however, the "only game in town" at the time. I did end up with a good enough engine that has never let me down.

I have no reason to think that my exhaust system is any better than yours.

Here's the cam specs.

http://files.triton.net/old1/final_cam1.jpg

old

[TIMINATOR]

Comp Cams is the only mfg that I know that publishes the .200 duration figures on their cams. That is VERY important, as it gives a lot better indication of the "area under the curve"(shape of the lobe), and hence the amount of horsepower produced. They only haven't published it in the white catalogue, but its back in the new one. They did have a separate cat of the lobe specs available though. Before I bought my cam analyzer about 15 years ago, I used to put a cam in the lathe "on centers" and with a degree wheel and dial indicator I graphed a ton of cams. Took about 35-40 minutes per cam, but the info was eyeopening! The analyzer does that and much more, in about a minute or so. Many other mfgs. roller cams have less area than some of the Comp's flat tappet HYDRAULICS!!!!! When I was running the 72 chevelle in 1994, I graphed more than a dozen cams in the same size range, but seemingly bigger than what I had. Most cams bigger by 5-8 degrees at .050 had less area than what I was already using.
It took me a while to figure out why the dirt-track guys liked the cams that were less aggressive on the lobes, until I realized that the poorer lobes had less throttle response and therefore were easier to drive off of the corners when the track "went away". When I then took a few guys under my wing, we installed the better cams, and then put in less rear gear ratio. Then most of them won lots more often! You cant tell a great lobe from an also ran by eye anymore than you can tell superior machine work by eye. Find someone in your area with a cam analyzer, bring in a bunch of cams, and a Comp. book. Pay him and learn. A cheap cam analyzer runs about $3000.00 and up, but they are worth it. Saves a BUNCH in dyno time. There are several companies that have cams listed by .050 duration that some of their smaller, but more agressive cams make more power than the older bigger ones. In one case that I know of, the next biggest three cams will make less power. There are some companies that mislabel what they sell (actually calling them smaller than what they are) to look better. Bigger duration in that case will make more power, but if the lift is misrepresented, as in many cases that I have seen, coil bound springs will result. Comp sometimes runs different ramp rates on the same size cam for different engine familys because of different rocker ratios involved. The smaller companies that have to grind from "masters" will always be behind the big companies that can grind directly from the latest computer files. Without good info and lots of it, your engine guy is just guessing. TIMINATOR

[TIMINATOR]

P.S. The accident was 2 months ago, we are on the mend, but LOTS of doctors office, therapy, and diagnostic time and both of us on light duty. Thanks for all of your concerns. TIMINATOR

[gerfguy]

How & where do you attach outside return oil lines to the heads? Any pic's? is it easy for an engine machine shop to do or will they look at me alittle funny?

[OldSleekOlds]

Now you know why I said CALL TIMINATOR

old

[TIMINATOR]

Somebody please send gerfguy the "article". Thanks TIMINATOR

[Last Mohican]

Somebody please send gerfguy the "article". Thanks TIMINATOR

He can download it here. I think he already has it though.

http://www.classiccustomboats.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=146

[gerfguy]

Yes, I have the article. I must of overlooked the return hose part. I'll read the article more closely. If I still have ?'s I will ask you Timinator when I call to order my parts. Thanks & hope your are feeling better! I'm sorry to hear about your accident.

[ezobens]

Timinator,
Please let me know when it's most convenient to call-
I do have a couple of questions based on your article that I would like to ask:

Do you enlarge the holes on the upper main bearings at all to match the holes in the block?
There is no mention in your article about any bearing 'treatment'.
This is one of the reasons why I don't understand why the cam oiling needs to be restricted- If you open the holes in the upper main bearings, you are effectively providing more oil to the crank so wouldn't the cam receive less by default?
Also, if I go with the Eagle H rods, do I still need reliefs of does the design of these rods remove the need for that?

The cam I'm currently running is the Comp Cams 'Marine' cam that most people seem to use in jet boats because they claim it's "perfect for jet boats" (280H) - In my opinion, it's not very good for an Olds. With the poor head flow and really poor exhaust flow, these motors need a dual-pattern cam (as you eluded to in your article). Running the numbers on my desktop application (just a rough ball-park, I know), it appears that with the stock heads and square exhaust manifolds, the XE268-H or even the XE262-H would be best for my application? As I mentioned earlier, the 280H 'Marine' cam has too much exhaust reversion (overlap) for my taste.

Please let me know when it's most convenient to call.
Thank you-
Elm

[TIMINATOR]

During business hrs. on mountain time 9-6 m-f 9-1 sat. Thanx TIMINATOR

[ezobens]

How many of you out there running the BBO are using the Ford rear main seal vs the OEM rope seal? Any opinions on which is better to use?

Also, is anyone drilling out the oil holes in the upper main bearings to allow more oil flow? Or do the other oiling mods make this unnecessary? I used to do this in my street motors and it seemed to work well but I'm not sure if it holds true in a marine environment?
Thanks!
Elm

[ezobens]

During business hrs. on mountain time 9-6 m-f 9-1 sat. Thanx TIMINATOR

Tim,
Thank you again for your time last Friday!
I do have a couple of quick (hopefully) questions that I seem to get opinions all over the map on:

Drilling out the upper main bearing holes-
I've done it in the past in my street engines but I don't know if this is necessary with all the other mods you list in your article?
If it's still recommended, do you open up all 5 or just 2,3 and 4? 5/16" holes?

Rear main seal-
Rope or 460 Ford neoprene style?

Restricted Pushrods-
You had mentioned on our call that the restriction should be .040? I apologize but I couldn't write as fast as you talked ;-)

Rod Reliefs-
Are the reliefs ground on both faces (rod-to-rod and rod-to-crank faces) or only on one side? If only one, which side? Seems there is some confusion on this. Also, is the necessary if I go to an aftermarket (IE Eagle) rod?

Oil Pump-
Standard or HV?
If I go HV, what are are consequences of using the HV?

Thanks again for all your help!
Elm