The wizard Engine?

[phantomuk]

Hi all, does anyone remember or even have pictures of the twin powerhead engine mercury tried in the 80's. think it was call the wizard, and it was to race against the V8 OMC's.
It was on Grand prix circuit hulls.
Just curious as i think it had one outing and ate the transom!
Paul

[largecar91]

You mean this one? At first it had 2 cowls and then went to 1 cowling. It is still around.

[specboatops]

WOW that is cool I had NEVER seen that before. Very cool Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:


Chris

[D.B.S]

I want one! Still around? where? I think the STV would run great with that setup!:D

[Maple Leaf]

That is awesome

[Mark Poole ModVP]

The Wizard was designed and built by Bill Chatfield, his machining business and his Arcadian Racing Team. The people at Mercury told him it would not work but they had it on the water faster than anybody expected. It raced more than once, it won a least one heat at a V-8 race with Johnny Sanders driving. I have some old powerboat magazines with those stories and pics.

Quite an engine as it had two shafts connected to the one lower unit driveshaft with blower belts. I knew a guy that was on the race team and he said the belts would wear out pretty quick. It was also part of the big scandal that took place at the Chatanooga race when several people went to jail!

[Mark75H]

Mark is right on all counts. It was a privateer motor, not a Merc made or backed motor and raced more than once.

I don't think the other guys were worried about it until it looked like they were getting it right ... then it had to be outlawed.


Those are the only pics I have seen of it. If anyone has more, we would all be grateful to see them.

[Charger200]

What a beast!...That single Cowl looks pretty intimidating

[Backfire]

Did ya see the twin -stacked V-4s, 90hp @, JohnRude at Havasu 1969?
I've got several slides of it running on the trailer at the ramp. I don't think it started the race. I'll try to get those '69 Havasu slides scanned this motor and others.
Backfire ;)

[Dave S]

Rememmber that first V8:thumbsup: Pics at least.:leaving:

[AirRide]

There was also twin 3.4 EFI powerhead prototyped unit(s) here in Ft. Lauderdale. Chain driven intermediate, not belts. Same gearcase as above, only fixed & mounted into the transom step. Steering was via a performance rudder behind the propeller(s). We worked closely with Merc on this one, who was very interested at the time, but to no avail. Comepletely patented & trademarked.

[lilabner]

There was also twin 3.4 EFI powerhead prototyped unit(s) here in Ft. Lauderdale. Chain driven intermediate, not belts. Same gearcase as above, only fixed & mounted into the transom step. Steering was via a performance rudder behind the propeller(s). We worked closely with Merc on this one, who was very interested at the time, but to no avail. Comepletely patented & trademarked.


Like a Don Smith invention?

[jackie wilson]

if this motor went to OZ then you can bet your last euro Anderson knows all about it.

[Ray Neudecker]

The thing was awesome down the straight aways but the powerheads tended to go straight when the boat turned left. I have the Cinncinati race on Beta tape. It ran off and left the v-8's until the third or fouth lap before tossing the motors.

[baja200merk]

Cool info! I would love to see a cut away of the mid :eek:

If this went on in the 80s whats with the black and white pics? Are there any other pics or video of it racing?

So basically they needed 12 cyls and 4.0L to run down a 3.5L v8 :D :leaving:

[Mark75H]

Cool info! I would love to see a cut away of the mid :eek:

If this went on in the 80s whats with the black and white pics? Are there any other pics or video of it racing?

So basically they needed 12 cyls and 4.0L to run down a 3.5L v8 :D :leaving:

Black and white scans of magazine articles. Most magazines were still only part full color in the 80's.

The largest V-8 was also 4 liters, but I don't know what year it was raced.

Not willing to spot a privateer a little displacement against a factory? Hardly fair :p

[baja200merk]

Black and white scans of magazine articles. Most magazines were still only part full color in the 80's.

The largest V-8 was also 4 liters, but I don't know what year it was raced.

Not willing to spot a privateer a little displacement against a factory? Hardly fair :p

Thanks for clearing that up:cheers:

The Raced F1 V8's were "sand cast" 3.5L no 4.0 was raced from what i understand ;)

Thats great that he did what he needed to get the job done, pretty cool:cool:

[Mark75H]

There were several different versions over the years

[baja200merk]

yes there were several different fishing motors 86/87 3.6 88-94ish 4.0.

Al or Norris will probably correct me but im pretty sure the 3.5s were the only ones that raced F1. They came in different versions efi, 8 2 barrel carbs, offshore versions 6, 12, 20in mids with a removable exhaust chest. No fishing motor 3.6/4.0 blocks will bolt up to the 3.5L F1 motors and the fishing motors do not have a removable exhaust chest.

Some one will correct me where/if im wrong :p all this stuff is way before my time but way cool :cool:

[jackie wilson]

Wrong----------they needed a v8 3.5 litre to beat a 2.4 v6 [sometimes] !!!!!

[baja200merk]

after OMC showed up with a rotary and all the merc teams refused to race unless they outlawed the rotary. Kinda similar to the new rules popping up in todays associations ;)

[jackie wilson]

after omc showed up with a rotary and all the merc teams refused to race unless they outlawed the rotary. Kinda similar to the new rules popping up in todays associations ;)
was never "outlawed" in europe and the only race it won over here was windermere, was quick on it's day but unreliable. It went the way of the wizard. Even today--there is not a viable profit making wankel.

[SonOfLegend84]

Lets back up for a min.. The wizard was an awesome project and would have been somethin to watch if they had worked out the boat issues BUT, OMC was bringing in the EFI V8's at the time of the wizard.. Only a small hand full of drivers had the lighter, faster efi V8's so this would explain why the wizard looked so much faster. Anyone who ever saw the carb version against the efi knows it was night and day differance speed wise. i just don't think even if they had worked it out it would have ever been as fast as the efi V8 around the coarse..... Again, i watch it run twice and it was something but by NO means able to out race a factory V8 race motor..

[Mark Poole ModVP]

Bill Seebold outran the early V-8's with a 2.5 L Merc, more than once. He did it in Europe and won a couple heats here in the states. He was leading one of the mains on Sunday when his motor grenaded. Johnny Sanders said one time that he had never driven anything that punched like a rotary.....until he drove the Wizard.

[SonOfLegend84]

Bill Seebold outran the early V-8's with a 2.5 L Merc, more than once. He did it in Europe and won a couple heats here in the states. He was leading one of the mains on Sunday when his motor grenaded. Johnny Sanders said one time that he had never driven anything that punched like a rotary.....until he drove the Wizard.You are correct about Billy and the 2.5.. However, that was in the late 80's when the OMC was sleeved down in about 89 and was a DOG!! Like I said, the wizard was awesome but NO WAY would have run around the coarse on pace with the V8 for 50 laps.. Just wouldn't have been able to.

Think about it for a second, Benny went something like 161mph in a straight line and 1 lap average was like 141mph in Beaumont Tx 1986.. No Mercury set up to race in a circle has or will run that kind of speed not now or then..

[jackie wilson]

You are correct about Billy and the 2.5.. However, that was in the late 80's when the OMC was sleeved down in about 89 and was a DOG!! Like I said, the wizard was awesome but NO WAY would have run around the coarse on pace with the V8 for 50 laps.. Just wouldn't have been able to.

Think about it for a second, Benny went something like 161mph in a straight line and 1 lap average was like 141mph in Beaumont Tx 1986.. No Mercury set up to race in a circle has or will run that kind of speed not now or then..
Now is the time for YOU to stop and think about it Little one. The big Vees Had 8 cylinders, 400 hp downhill with a tail wind , on a good day from 3.5 litres.
The Wizard had 12 cylinders and a conservative 550/600 hp every day from 5 liters. I would take the word of Johnny Sanders any day that it was the fastest thing EVER. The hull was one of Rick Frosts that sported a V8 on regular occasions, so it must have been "on the pace" as they say. Kinda wild thing to say that nobody can run that sort of pace.
Took a million bucks, trick sh-it engine, 3,pointer , Super prop development and some dedication and 3 years development before the record was finally set some 15 mph quicker than what you are talking about. Tread carefully when talking about boat racing my friend, you are in a mine field.

[SonOfLegend84]

maybe we should have just asked you 1st about the motor.. seems as if you have it all figured out. what would i know? hell, i was just there to see it run.:rolleyes:

[jackie wilson]

Me too , i was lucky enough to be an active racer in the early days, met most of the all time greats including your dad and mom. Watched my own kid race against your dad. Created the FONDA series. Watched the rise and fall of F1. What's running today being called F1 is a direct result of the early series that Parkinson and myself put together I earned the right to an opinion. All i did was ask YOU to "THINK ABOUT IT" no need to get snotty about it. I have never ever been an expert on anything, but i do like to discuss boat racing. "Cos i was one of those people.

[SonOfLegend84]

Me too , i was lucky enough to be an active racer in the early days, met most of the all time greats including your dad and mom. Watched my own kid race against your dad. Created the FONDA series. Watched the rise and fall of F1. What's running today being called F1 is a direct result of the early series that Parkinson and myself put together I earned the right to an opinion. All i did was ask YOU to "THINK ABOUT IT" no need to get snotty about it. I have never ever been an expert on anything, but i do like to discuss boat racing. "Cos i was one of those people.sorry jackie.. my point was and is only that the efi race engines raced from mid 1985 until 1988 were a far cry from what they raced in 1989 when billy was able to spank them with the 2.5 merc. the wizard was no dout an amazing engine and was crazy fast but history tells us that it should have been used to try and set the outboard world speed record and not trying to race in circles with the v8 due to the weight of the 2 powerheads.... nothing will take away in my opinion the fact that hearing and seeing that thing run was awesome, i just don't think it would have ever worked out for a racing application.

i'm standing by what i said about no mercury outrunning the v8, think about the T4 merc tried to race.. JUNK!!!!!

[jackie wilson]

just wonder whether the V8's or the T1--T2--AND T3 set the most records-----won the most races and put FUN back into racing. Told you to tread careful when it comes to boating, my OWN personal opinion of the biggest piece of outboard junk was the motor that for over a century has broken the heart of every one who got near it--------------
THE BLOODY WANKEL----
It must hurt a bit to realize OMC played catch up for over 20 years.

[jackie wilson]

If you go to to the website "HOT SINGLES" you can see Seebold doing his bit with that JUNK engine you mentioned --------THE T4.
It's as bad as Afghanistan out there in the boating minefield.!!!!!

[T2x]

I thought the T-4 wasn't allowed to race in the OMC V8 series and that's why Mercury back burnered the project?

[peterse90]

You are correct about Billy and the 2.5.. However, that was in the late 80's when the OMC was sleeved down in about 89 and was a DOG!!
Think about it for a second, Benny went something like 161mph in a straight line and 1 lap average was like 141mph in Beaumont Tx 1986.. No Mercury set up to race in a circle has or will run that kind of speed not now or then..

Seebold also beet the V8's in 1982 (Bristol, England). He actually used a 2.0 Litre powerhead with a slight modification made by his mechanic; Leo Molendijk in order to get the cc's to a little over 2000 so he could meet the OZ minimum cc limit. The OMC V8's were carb 3.5 litre, and drivers included Molinari, Velden, Spalding, Percival and Jenkins. Seebold was the only Merc in the field of 11 OZ boats.
Beaumont, Texas in 1986 was a great win for Gene Thibodeaux on according to Powerboat Magazine - October 1986 an uncertified 1.5 mile oval. So Benny's record-setting 141.33 mph lap unfortunately is not an official record, and although I was not there I would have to believe that his 161 mph straight away speed is unofficial or perhaps the speculation of an exuberant announcer. By the way, Benny's engine didn't even last 3 laps. "Out to lunch"!
To the best of my recollection, the Merc T-4 project was stopped by Mercury as a result of the poor economic times of the early 80's and Merc concentrated more on their 2.0 and 2.4 litre motors that they figured would be more in demand during this fuel crisis era. Perhaps OMC should have payed more attention to what the outboard buyer wanted, after all where did all the money and effort that OMC put into the V8 program get them?

[Mark75H]

after all where did all the money and effort that OMC put into the V8 program get them?

Fairly good sales for a while in another market. Just because it was not big in the US doesn't mean it was a corporate failure.

[SonOfLegend84]

Seebold also beet the V8's in 1982 (Bristol, England). He actually used a 2.0 Litre powerhead with a slight modification made by his mechanic; Leo Molendijk in order to get the cc's to a little over 2000 so he could meet the OZ minimum cc limit. The OMC V8's were carb 3.5 litre, and drivers included Molinari, Velden, Spalding, Percival and Jenkins. Seebold was the only Merc in the field of 11 OZ boats.
Beaumont, Texas in 1986 was a great win for Gene Thibodeaux on according to Powerboat Magazine - October 1986 an uncertified 1.5 mile oval. So Benny's record-setting 141.33 mph lap unfortunately is not an official record, and although I was not there I would have to believe that his 161 mph straight away speed is unofficial or perhaps the speculation of an exuberant announcer. By the way, Benny's engine didn't even last 3 laps. "Out to lunch"!
To the best of my recollection, the Merc T-4 project was stopped by Mercury as a result of the poor economic times of the early 80's and Merc concentrated more on their 2.0 and 2.4 litre motors that they figured would be more in demand during this fuel crisis era. Perhaps OMC should have payed more attention to what the outboard buyer wanted, after all where did all the money and effort that OMC put into the V8 program get them?Gene won in the same boat Billy was driving overseas in 83 but it wasn't against the V8's.. As for the T4, was just asking him (Gene) about them and the reason they stopped the T4 project is because they would only run a couple laps and break the crank. Now thats from 1 of 3 Mercury TEAM drivers who were involved with the T4 project not from me or hear say........ He (Gene) also said it was a DOG and didn't make much power anyway.

[T2x]

Fairly good sales for a while in another market. Just because it was not big in the US doesn't mean it was a corporate failure.

What market was that?

[T2x]

Gene won in the same boat Billy was driving overseas in 83 but it wasn't against the V8's.. As for the T4, was just asking him (Gene) about them and the reason they stopped the T4 project is because they would only run a couple laps and break the crank. Now thats from 1 of 3 Mercury TEAM drivers who were involved with the T4 project not from me or hear say........ He (Gene) also said it was a DOG and didn't make much power anyway.

The T4's I ran offshore had tons of power (at least as much as the OMC offshore V-8's which were also "junk") and no crankshaft failures. Two of them on a Shadow Cat ran 10 miles an hour faster than the same hull with triple 2.4's. These were the last OZ tunnel motors converted to Offshore. The problem we had was the motor mounts on the Offshore center sections broke as soon as we hit big water......and after a while the whole engine would be angled back 25 degrees from the transom.

[Jeff_G]

So Rich you didn't have any bungy cords and some 1/4" nylon line?

[Mark75H]

What market was that?

Our buddies that buy all those million dollar super cars ... same market

the V-8's were available in that market after they were discontinued in the US

[T2x]

So Rich you didn't have any bungy cords and some 1/4" nylon line?

WE tried that and a lot more.......those powerheads were a L-O-A-D.

[peterse90]

Fairly good sales for a while in another market. Just because it was not big in the US doesn't mean it was a corporate failure.

Hate to turn the Wizard discussion into an OMC V8 discussion but...
in my opinion there are probably several reasons why the V8 never really took off in terms of production motor sales and one of the primary reasons (again in my opinion) is that the boat builders never took to these engines. Even OMC itself who in the late 80's and early 90's owned big builders like Chris Craft and Four Winns, themselves did not build a hull designed to use a V8. As much as performance boaters think that we account for a large number of big hp engines sold, fishing is where the market share of big outboards are primarily sold and in the late 80's early 90's many were bass boats. The V8's were just too big for most bass boats that are 18 to 21 feet. With respect to the main stream family bow riders, your typical 20 foot bow rider with a 225hp sterndrive is thousands less than the same boat would be with a V6 225hp outboard, that's why main stream companies like Regal, Chaparral and Ebbtide do not even offer O/B powered boats.
In some markets, like Florida, big hp outboards recently have been selling fairly well an example being the multi engine centre consoles, but most of these are four strokes or DFI's.

[peterse90]

Back to The Wizard.
Here's a picture of Sanders and The Wizard from Powerboat Nov/Dec 1984 in action in Cincinnati. The Wizard won the first preliminary heat.
The boat they used earlier in London, England was a Burgess but this Cincinnati boat looks like a Seebold or a Hodges.
A Seebold because of the angled back sponsons at the rear, but a Hodges because of the front wing and I think I remember a Mark Wilson Hodges that had a similar paint job and profile.
I know Johnny Sanders, Bill Seebold, Bill Chatfield or Fred Hauenstein could tell us for sure !!!!!
Wouldn't it be great if Sanders himself would 'pipe-in' here and tell us his experience with The Wizard.

[AirRide]

The T4's I ran offshore had tons of power (at least as much as the OMC offshore V-8's which were also "junk") and no crankshaft failures. Two of them on a Shadow Cat ran 10 miles an hour faster than the same hull with triple 2.4's. These were the last OZ tunnel motors converted to Offshore. The problem we had was the motor mounts on the Offshore center sections broke as soon as we hit big water......and after a while the whole engine would be angled back 25 degrees from the transom.What r.p.m. were you turning them on the Shadow, propped for offshore?

[largecar91]

I was told that the Burgess ripped the strongbacks and transom out with the Wizard and they went to a new Seebold and it did the same thing.

[T2x]

What r.p.m. were you turning them on the Shadow, propped for offshore?

My best recollection...and this was years ago....was somewhere around 65-6800.

[jackie wilson]

back to the wizard.
Here's a picture of sanders and the wizard from powerboat nov/dec 1984 in action in cincinnati. The wizard won the first preliminary heat.
The boat they used earlier in london, england was a burgess but this cincinnati boat looks like a seebold or a hodges.
A seebold because of the angled back sponsons at the rear, but a hodges because of the front wing and i think i remember a mark wilson hodges that had a similar paint job and profile.
I know johnny sanders, bill seebold, bill chatfield or fred hauenstein could tell us for sure !!!!!
Wouldn't it be great if sanders himself would 'pipe-in' here and tell us his experience with the wizard.
what a memory !!!!! The paint job is a replica of the boat mark and steve kerton ran in paris. I think they won but wouldn't bet the farm on it. Jimmy h. And mark did a lot of work together. 'twas a biggish hodges that they ran in paris----really must ask him about it. That was one of those father and son not quite seeing eye to eye times as i recall.
Would be surprised if the wizard ripped the arse out of the hodges, he built the transoms like brick ****eries.

[flatsmoke]

Back in the day, I tested a Mercury T-4 Seebold combination. The engine had a rev limiter set at 7,600 - 7,800 RPM's as it wanted to toss rods. The boat had wide and shallow sponsons and was out of balance. It was really hard to drive as the weight of the engine and flat running surfaces cause the boat to bottom out in rough (racing water) conditions. If time would have allowed and OMC really wanted to race, a boat re-design would have be solved some of the performance issues. But, nothing is better then RPM's - which the T-4 lacked....

[AirRide]

Back in the day, I tested a Mercury T-4 Seebold combination. The engine had a rev limiter set at 7,600 - 7,800 RPM's as it wanted to toss rods. The boat had wide and shallow sponsons and was out of balance. It was really hard to drive as the weight of the engine and flat running surfaces cause the boat to bottom out in rough (racing water) conditions. If time would have allowed and OMC really wanted to race, a boat re-design would have be solved some of the performance issues. But, nothing is better then RPM's - which the T-4 lacked....
Welcome to Scream & Fly flatsmoke! Glad to have an ex-Mercury Hi-Performance aficionado here to share experiences. Do you remember who you were dealing with@Merc Hi-Perf back then? Yes, even at the 7,600-7,800 r.p.m. limits, it was really asking alot of the 3.4. They really were not designed for tunnel/cat use. There was a entirely different market intended for it, and when rigged differently, performed well. Again...welcome to S & F.:thumbsup:

[flatsmoke]

Thank you for nice welcome message. I need to sort out the timetable a bit, but I know the rig was from Mercury Racing. I don't think Hi-Perf was involved. And, it was during the short period when Dick Snyder took over after Gary Garbrecht left Mercury. The plan was to run 3 T-4 powered Seebolds in the US. Billy and Mike were going to run the other rigs. I also remember that the 2.5 had not been fully developed yet and the 2.4 were out of production and Mercury only had a few Merdock (sp) Street engines. The Ron Anderson version would spin 10,000 with a 10" x 17"

[flatsmoke]

Welcome to Scream & Fly flatsmoke! Glad to have an ex-Mercury Hi-Performance aficionado here to share experiences. Do you remember who you were dealing with@Merc Hi-Perf back then? Yes, even at the 7,600-7,800 r.p.m. limits, it was really asking alot of the 3.4. They really were not designed for tunnel/cat use. There was a entirely different market intended for it, and when rigged differently, performed well. Again...welcome to S & F.:thumbsup:


I stand corrected. The T-4 rev limiter was set @ 7,400 by Mercury One of the wires broke and it turned 7,800. They always broke....

[Da Bull]

If you go to to the website "HOT SINGLES" you can see Seebold doing his bit with that JUNK engine you mentioned --------THE T4.
It's as bad as Afghanistan out there in the boating minefield.!!!!!



Could you post a link to this website. I can`t find it.

DB

[Markus]

Could you post a link to this website. I can`t find it.

DB

I think he refers to the thread on this forum.

[magcat16]

Bill Chatfield is a friend of my dad's. He's talking of building another wizard motor for display. They did have trouble with the boats ripping the ass end out. The last being in cincy. He had the last boat built for the motors and was promised that it would handle the power but, it still tore it out and the boat sank.Dad and I are going to talk to him here soon. I will ask him if he's still going to bulid it. Bill also ran the v8's for 2 or 3 years along with the merc's.

[Da Bull]

Last time T-Rex came for a visit i sent him home with a 300 ProMax mid and cowling/belly pan for a twin powerhead project we wanna do. He has a milling machine to make the twin plate for the two 2.4`s we wanna use. It will go on his 380 Laser or my Riot with both having hydrolic stearing. A 3.0 sportsmaster with 1.62`s should do the trick. He has a 12 coil set up from the 80`s so all we gotta get is one set of plug wires to reach the other motor. Were gonna mill the intakes in the front to mount the carbs at an angel so we can "cant" the powerheads inward as close as possible so it will look sorta like a giant V motor.
This should be a really cool project if we can ever get started on it.

DB

[delawarerick]

Da Bull there is another member on here that is also talking of building a wizard and he too has Trex ability. :thumbsup: Rick

[Da Bull]

I`ve been wanting to do this for many years ever sence i read about the champ Wizzard years ago but never had access to a milling machine. Now Rex has one so we gonna do it, I hope.

DB

[BUSHWACKER]

Ya know what ya really want to do is outdue Copelands multi V6 boat, with Rex's help, but they would all have to be 2.0's! :D

[Playtime H2O]

I was looking into buying an old PT Nam boat once. This thing had one diesel engine but two Props,shafts, struts rudders. Kinda reverse what the Wizard is I guess. Maybe it was for the PT boats to go in shallower water or something with the two smaller props. Anyway the one main shaft drove the two prop shafts via two wide belts like the cogged blower belts on dragsters. Kinda neat to say the least. It would be real simple to put two powerheads on one lower section with two gearbelts connecting the one main shaft. It would sure be some kinda fun with our newer tech motors of today.

Mark.

[Mark75H]

That's what they thought when they started the Wizard project ... it turned out to be pretty hard to do.

[magcat16]

I went to Bill Chatfield's house today and he has the wizzard motor on a stand. He's putting it together for display. The boat in europe was a burgess hull and the one in cincy was a seebold. They used a hodges hull to test the motor and did not have any trouble with the transom. You should see the pictures of racing he has on the wall in his barn. what a walk through racing history?

[jackie wilson]

Didn't think for a moment there would be any transom trouble with the Hodges, he was after all the ONLY one of the boatbuilders who served his apprenticeship as a joiner/carpenter from a kid. He is also a great antique furniture restorer and could make a lump of wood into a many splendored thing. Velden had a radio shop in Holland.
Burgess was the glass and wood man for Shakespeare.
Seebold was told by GG to build tunnels.
Scotti was cousin to Molinari and learned how to.
Molinari was son of Angelo who was a wood boatbuilder.
Cetti was an artistic furniture/ boatbuilder who did the original Torriggia.
Hodges was one third of COUGAR with James Beard and Clive Curtis, before he went off on his own.
Then suddenly everybody is a boatbuilder.

[ggoslow889]

helped the omc bunch with renoldos molinary v8. dick sherrer. mike seabold, and one other v6 merc came to sacramento to take on the first efi v8s . holly crap molinary had the aluminum hull, lapped every body. merc guys were made to change motors. omc made them use pump gas!! dick had john lane put three head gaskets on to run the fuel. not fair but it was omcs gig. long time ago whew!!

[Da Bull]

not fair but it was omcs gig.


The factory tunnel wars were great. OMC played in Mercs back yard too (AMRA) and got sorta the same treatment but that and making each other stay on their toes is what made it interesting.

DB

[magcat16]

In talking with Bill he told me that they won the series against the v8's with a 2.4. They won 2 races that year and ran consistant in the rest. All they had to do in the final race was show up and start to lock up the championship.

[Rotary John]

Why not get Freddie to tell his side of the story about the wizzard? Or Nerstrom to tell about the 500+HP V-8 he was developing. Instead of arguing about speculation or hearsay?

[Mark75H]

'Cause they are friends of Ron and usually post on his forum rather than here.

[f1dave]

i seem to remember a british guy running a 3.5 ltr cosworth to try and beat the 2.4 mercs and omc motors