Whats up with these STEEL SLEEVED Motors ?

[Jay Smith]

I have 4 225 Pro Max, 1 200 EFI and 1 225X Pro Max and they ALL have worn out bores and are having to be bored out .015" ...They all are wearing pretty even , no egging so to speak , all that are Premix are running premium oils at the correct ratio. The X motor has the new style pulse oiler and seems to be working flawless..I keep re calibrating my dial bore gauge with a constant thinking this tool got bumped or something but these things are .003" - .005" too big BEFORE I'd have to hone it to break the glaze..

After thinking it over I came back to Earth. The Newest motor is the X and it is 2000 ( 9 years old ) the oldest is the 200 EFI and its a 1993 ( 16 years old ) and this is the first rebuild on each... WELL DUH. I've had each engines injectors done by Linda Brucato sent the X weird lookin injectors off today. Having all OEM .015" pistons top pinned by Marles ( and rings notched ) Replacing all reeds with a bullet proof set from Tony Doukas... I am doing some light clean up in the chest and behind the port and some slight clean up in the rod slot track...Bumping compression on all that is regular gasket to 140-145* cranking , taking all the electrical goop off as well as puttying all the oiler cavitys... These motors should work real well on the hulls they came from ..

I have only 1 report from the 200 EFI engines and its running fine on the hose and the trailor cause its was 22* .. The rest are in stages of being completed..

Peace,
Jay

[Capt.Insane-o]

Time creeps up on us eh?

[Jay Smith]

Just like me Capt. getting old and wore out...

:cheers:

Jay

[sschefer]

Jay, I can't wait to see the 94 2.0 135 block I got off eBay for 167.50 and shipping.

The seller say's it's scuffed on all 6 due to an oiler failure. I'm just going to take it straight to .030 and if it blows after that I'll morph it into a 175. Gottal love these little 2.0's.

On my last 2.0 I had two holes that were at 3.123 and 3.122.... No kidding!!! I checked it and then took it in and had it re-checked. The bores were round and taper was .003 on the on the worst one. This was a virgin 91 with 1 and 2 melted. 5 and 6 were the ones that were under and there wasn't even a scuff mark on either of them.

Sometimes you just gotta wonder...:cheers:

Steve

[wrechin2]

Jay,
You do know that most people consider the 2.5 a 3.500 bore. When checking it, they are 3.501 according to mercury specs so a 3.504 is still within tolerances.......I have built quite a few of them and very rarely do I see one out of specs. Just my experiences though.....

http://i45.tinypic.com/2s1t060.jpg[/IMG]

[Jay Smith]

James ,
After I hone these they would be on the end of the tolerance so I'm gonna takes Ruck's suggestions ( who has forgotten more about Mercury sleeves/bores that any 10 top engine people on this or any other board will ever know :thumbsup:) and over bore .015" and go together with new pistons and rings and maybe these will last another 16 years:p:p:p...Also if I'm putting new pistons anyway and at STD after honing I'm out on the edge it would be IMO foolish not to buy the .015" over pistons at the same price and the customers is now out only $220.00 for 6 rebore and the will have a completely NEW, straight ,and the tight end of the wear tolerance bore /ring/piston combo like the motor is now NEW... But everybody has their own thought pattern. I'm not a fan of putting old pistons ( 16 years old one at that) back in a motor...To me thats asking for trouble especially when these engines are gonna have the "wick" turned up a bit...

Thanks for the info, but Ruck and I discussed these issues earlier and decided what the path was gonna be , and what was to be best for the longevity of the customers engine for a reasonable $$$ spent.....

Jay

[wrechin2]

:cheers:Know whatcha talking about........:cheers: Alot of books list the bore at 3.500 and mercury list it 3.501. If you go what the other books list, it only gives you .002 :thumbsup:

[Jay Smith]

god ( Ruck ) says 3.500" ( so be it ! ) :cheers::p:thumbsup:

Jay

[flabum1017]

Ahhhhhh just let them run another 10 - 20 years and you won't have to bore them, just throw in the over-sized pistons................

[wrechin2]

I was simply stating that the makers of the engine say 3.501 and if you go 3.500 you will bore alot more cylinders as that only leaves you with .002 for taper and wear.:cheers: I build alot that are at spec limits and have NO issues what so ever with them. BUT once again what I build and what you build are 2 totally different animals.........:thumbsup: :cheers:

[TEXAS20225]

Im in on the .015 over bore i just did it and Ruck did the work But Pops lavazza was the engine builder that told me to stop wasting my money on buying new standard bore pistons and putting them in a block thats right on the edge of being wore out, out of round and just aint a good rebuild so i did it and the results is real GOOD:thumbsup::thumbsup: James i have a brand spanking new LA079 sleeve that has bore to 3.501 written on the sleeve so somebody else knew it

[sschefer]

Im in on the .015 over bore i just did it and Ruck did the work But Pops lavazza was the engine builder that told me to stop wasting my money on buying new standard bore pistons and putting them in a block thats right on the edge of being wore out, out of round and just aint a good rebuild so i did it and the results is real GOOD:thumbsup::thumbsup: James i have a brand spanking new LA079 sleeve that has bore to 3.501 written on the sleeve so somebody else knew it

I was just talking to a guy the other day about getting my block bored and he say's go .001 over what the book calls for just so you can have the choice of running cast or forged pistons. Going .001 over is not going to make any difference on a fresh clean and straight bored steel sleeve.

[TEXAS20225]

on wiescos some these guys who use them can tell you more then me

[sschefer]

on wiescos some these guys who use them can tell you more then me

Was told that .001 is enough if you remember to re-cut relief at the bottom.:rolleyes: Never done it myself.

[wrechin2]

Bobby,

I have had to bore every LA079 I have installed. Maybe they got smart and are finishing them out. I hope. I hate having to bore them after I put them in. It is usually around .060 I have to bore them to get back to STD!:eek:

So many people have their own opinions and methods on this stuff. Like I said, I have built quite a few of them at the .003 limit and you can't tell the difference form one that has just been completely bored out to dead on and all new pistons put in. Of course mine are bass boat engines that are pushing a LOT heavier rigs. You would think they would be more prone to showing a lack of power due to the work load they are subject to.

I get a TON of business because my builds aren't 3K+ due to putting in all new parts every build and I still stand behind them and have done so for years. Never had any issues, just more business than I can handle at times. I hone them with a Sunnen ridged hone then measure with a Fowler bore gauge, If it is within specs, I use it. I can generally keep the taper and out of round to .0005 with it. Just my experiences though.....:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[TEXAS20225]

you will still have to bore them, all i said was some one wrote that on the sleeve
"bore to 3.501" if your into machine shop service then you know as well as any body what they are but if your trying to rebuild and warranty anything you have to do the work your self you cannot warranty anything thats cash and carry:nonod: Last i talked with you on the phone you were a mechanic at a car dealer ship sounds like you moved up:D:D you have your own machine shop stuff sounds like way to go :thumbsup:

[wrechin2]

I misunderstood about the sleeve......

I was doing BOTH. I am still a ASE Master With L1 and a Chrysler Master just in case I need to go back.:thumbsup: I remember I sold you a a lot of the tools to get started on lower units.

I had to do something. I was TOOO dependent on the machine shop to get my stuff back. I was sending money out. I have only had to send out a 4 cylinder 40 horse mercury this year because the bore was 2.565". My hone wouldn't do it. I have since gotten the stones for my Sunnen hone to cover them. I do alot of modified engines and it is nice to walk over to the mill and do what needs done.:thumbsup:

I shutter to think what someone would have charge me to do all the machine work I just done to a 2.4 200 I just built for myself. I had to install 2 sleeves, cut the heads, deck the block .027 on both sides, cut the front 1/2 .050, cut the exhaust chest, cooling mod, cut the rod slots, squared the piston ports, and decked the pistons .027.

I built the 2.4 instead of one of my 2.5's until I get my top pin process down pat on the 2.5L....

[TEXAS20225]

"two" you sold me a drive shaft holder that was the wrong spline and drive shaft nut wrench. Shaft holder i welded to a 4" dia case tool i built but you gave me some good info on tools. I finally built more special tools way better then Mercurys i was knee deep in case's then and buying all kinds of tools i remember trying to sell you all those outdrive Parts i got From 6killer what a mess that was i did not know for months & months what all those gears and shafts fit i still have a44 qt ice chest full out outdrive parts i don't work on them. Tommy Warren got me started on Building Motors he really is a very good mechanic and a good teacher he has been at it 30 years plus aint much he has not built he still keeps an eye on me when that somtimers takes over. Boy do i know what you mean on the machine shop deal i have had me a big dose of that:nonod: im looking too for a mill ,i cut a bunch of heads at my brothers i did not figure it out till a few heads got cut more then they needed to be:eek: i tried it with a fly cutter i think it needs to be a face cutter

[mrcrsr]

just found the same thing last nite jay on a 1997 2.5/200, bores were 3.504, but straight(unlike the 260's that i see:smiletest:), punch it .015 and it'll be good for another 10 years:D i'm doing the same thing, but an experiment of sorts, putting a 260 map in the 200 block, w/ chest, rod slots and a 4 bolt main conversion, putting a 260 front on and we'll see how it does! i'm curious to see what the lifespan of this engine will be, should be a heck of alot better then the 260's, just wondering how much i'll lose w/ the steel bores, but think of the money saved!:thumbsup:

[wrechin2]

but.......according to Mercury, it is within specs.......A lot of people prefer a little additional clearance on a higher rpm engine even with cast pistons. I know I do. Give a little more room for hard long runs for the piston to expand. You know these bass fisherman run for miles and miles and miles at WOT.

With a 260 map, it will want to turn around 7,500 to make the power just like a "TRUE" 260 and MOST people would want to use a FORGED piston. Forged pistons need additional clearance due to the different expansion rates.. SO the "additional" .003 is a good thing. But the vertex is also a great piston........JMO.........

[Capt.Insane-o]

just found the same thing last nite jay on a 1997 2.5/200, bores were 3.504, but straight(unlike the 260's that i see:smiletest:), punch it .015 and it'll be good for another 10 years:D i'm doing the same thing, but an experiment of sorts, putting a 260 map in the 200 block, w/ chest, rod slots and a 4 bolt main conversion, putting a 260 front on and we'll see how it does! i'm curious to see what the lifespan of this engine will be, should be a heck of alot better then the 260's, just wondering how much i'll lose w/ the steel bores, but think of the money saved!:thumbsup:

The loss is extremely minute if even at all noticable. And they last MUCH longer, especially when run warm enough.

[mrcrsr]

but.......according to Mercury, it is within specs.......A lot of people prefer a little additional clearance on a higher rpm engine even with cast pistons. I know I do. Give a little more room for hard long runs for the piston to expand. You know these bass fisherman run for miles and miles and miles at WOT.

With a 260 map, it will want to turn around 7,500 to make the power just like a "TRUE" 260 and MOST people would want to use a FORGED piston. Forged pistons need additional clearance due to the different expansion rates.. SO the "additional" .003 is a good thing. But the vertex is also a great piston........JMO.........
thats what i'm using, the vertex, heck, i put 100 plus hours a yr on my hydrostream, and at 600$ for a set of rings only for a 260 i think it'll be a lot cheaper, even if i tear it down every 2 years and relace the vertex i'm still ahead of the game, and no more replating/out of round bs:D i just wonder how much i'll lose because of the steel bores

[wrechin2]

i just wonder how much i'll lose because of the steel bores

I think it was posted it was like 1.5HP per cylinder or something like that. I don't know 4 sure. That may have been a guess and not fact.

I personally like steel motors. I had to bore the chrome out to sleeve 2 cylinders on my 2.4 and it was B*TCH to get through the .003 chrome. I just had to go lightly until I broke through the chrome. I only chipped one bit.:rolleyes:

[mrcrsr]

i was thinking about sealing the "dump" in the block on the bottom where the poppet usually dumps, and drilling/tapping the block in the poppet cavity, that way when it opens it dumps thru an external hose, that way i can use a 1 piece adapter plate and close off the dump holes a little so it builds temperature, and yet the poppet is still functional

[Jay Smith]

sschefer,

FYI : If you listen to the advise your Buddy gave you about giving a forged piston on a steel bore an additional .001" over the cast piston on steel specks it WILL stick !!!!! I use ( as well as all others that I know that bore motors successfully ) .008" piston to cylinder wall clearance or .003" over cast piston speck to sleeve piston to bore clearances on std and .0085" on first over bore and ..009" on the larger over bore. Been building em like that for 14 years with no issues yet... But tomorrow is another day.. Don't trust me call Ruck !

Jay

[T-REX]

If it ain't STEEL....It ain't REEL!!!....:D:D

[baja200merk]

If it ain't STEEL....It ain't REEL!!!....:D:D

:iagree::D

wiseco says .005 :nonod: so they stay in business:eek:

[jphii]

:iagree::D

wiseco says .005 :nonod: so they stay in business:eek:

They mean .005 a side:eek:

[baja200merk]

Mine had more then that when i tore it down after a year of uhhh babying it :eek: :D

[Capt.Insane-o]

:iagree::D

wiseco says .005 :nonod: so they stay in business:eek:

I kept 'em in busniess pretty good for awhile :(

[tlwjkw]

They mean .005 a side:eek:

:thumbsup:

[David L]

Guess I’ll step in as the mentioned 225X is mine.

I’ve ran this motor for 9 seasons with no issues (other than reeds for general PM). It has 350 hours.

My previous PM didn’t last half this long.

My allegiance is with Jay on this overbore topic. I’ve read too many Dear John rebuild stories as a result of cutting corners.

Yea, it might be on the bubble for needing the overbore.

It’s cheap insurance the way I look at it, and NO doubt it will last longer and be stronger with fresh bores than rolling the dice for another 9 years as it stands now.

[mrcrsr]

the wiseco's will stick if your not careful, jay is rite:smiletest: thats impressive on the hours, how did the rest of the motor look?

[T-REX]

Wiesco + .009 + proper break-in = no problem!!!(unless a pin kumz out..lol)

[Merc ModVP]

:iagree: Wiseco's need minimum of .008 clearance. I had to learned
the hard way.