XRI Injection issues. Need help!!!!

[wrechin2]

I took a 98 150 and ported it to 200 specs. I have installed a 2000/2001 200 xri fuel system/ with the CDM igniton. This all came off of a blown engine that was running but had no power due to damaged piston.

Here is my problem. It will start run for 2 seconds then die. almost like you cut the key off as soon as it fires. With a fuel pressue gauge on it, there is 34-36 psi. When starting it you can see the needle bounce where the pulse width is trippled for cold start. Once it starts the needle quits moving and goes to 34-36 psi. Here is a list of thing I have done. I have removed the idle stabilizer, oil injection module, and spark advance module.

1) link and sync on it.
2) TPI set a .252 with temp sensor unplugged.
3) Tried a known GOOD ecu I have same issue.
4) Tried another CDM control module.
5) VST is full of fuel
6) Tried running with TPI unplugged
7) Tried with heat temp unpluggd
8) Voltage is staying constant at the injector harness
9) Put voltage on purple wire at the the harness to see if was loosing voltage from the key.

ANY and ALL suggestions are welcolmed!!!! Thanks!!!!

[malexie]

What kind of ECU. (make, modle?)

[shooter1]

James ,
I had a similar issue with a 2.4 XRI. Kept changing parts looking for an injection issue. Had good spark on all six but was double firing the injector. Had real high voltage on the high speed side of stator, changed stator, motor fired and run good for about 30 seconds and died. No spark, 2 dead switchboxes. Put 2 more on runs great. I don't know if it was the stator or the switchboxes that was causing the double fire or what. Don't know if this helps or not just an idea.

Shooter1

[wrechin2]

Malexie,
It is also a 2000/2001 It is a A30. The other box was A26 96 switchbox. I talked to Shawn at repair a while back and he said they would interchange. Both are doing the exact same thing...

Shooter,
This is a CDM engine. It doesn't have switchboxes. The capcitors are built into each coil. I have another stator and trigger and flywheel that is cdm. I might give them a try.

[malexie]

Malexie,
It is also a 2000/2001 It is a A30. The other box was A26 96 switchbox. I talked to Shawn at repair a while back and he said they would interchange. Both are doing the exact same thing...

Shooter,
This is a CDM engine. It doesn't have switchboxes. The capcitors are built into each coil. I have another stator and trigger and flywheel that is cdm. I might give them a try.

Take some pictures for us. I'm not sure how CDM's work this those ECU's.
But your pressure needs to be atleast 39psi.

[olmo40]

Dont they have those very fine filters on the motor that clog as soon as you look at them ??Thats what used to give us the most trouble :confused:

[Bartman39]

Have you disconnected the black with yellow stripe that goes to the CDM modules...? Just to make sure your not getting a ground signal after you release the key switch...?

Only other thought is the stator...

[TheRickster]

I just took a 2000 model 200 EFI fishing PH off my boat.. Mine has two boxes.. One on top of the port head that is the ECM that has 3 pigtails, one in and two out. IT also controls the oil alarm, OH alarm, idle stabilizer etc... On the side of the block on the port side there is the detonation control module.. IS this the way yours is? If so what have you disconnected?

[shooter1]

I realize that this is a cdm motor, I was just saying that some wierd stuff can drive you nuts. I spent about 30 hrs. checking injection stuff and it was ignition that was causing the problem.

Shooter1

[pyro]

This reminds me of the way a motor behaves with the cold start enrichment wire connected to the starter solenoid trigger. Start it, then it dies, start it, then it dies.

Please read my post here so I don't have to explain it all again...

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158197

This may have something to do with your problem...

[wrechin2]

Take some pictures for us. I'm not sure how CDM's work this those ECU's.
But your pressure needs to be atleast 39psi.


Factory manual says 34-36PSI

[wrechin2]

Bartman69,
I have tried disconnecting the black and yellow stripe kill wire on the back going to the CDM"s. Still starts and dies

Olmo40,
Complete system was cleaned including the filter at the regulator.

Rickster,
It is. I just didn't install the detonation module.

Shooter,
That it may be. When I get time I may swap out the ignition.

Pyro,
Problem is not flooding but simply seems like the injectors quit pulsing as soon as it start. If you crack the throttle it will still start only for about 2 second but may rev to 2-3K then shut off.

I have also removed the yellow-red wires from the starter solenoid and starting it with a remote starter switch on the terminal and still dies instantly, I have also held the key in the start position (with the yellow-redwires removed from the relay) and used a remote starter on the small terminal, same as having it with the key pushed in. Still the same thing.

I will see if I can find the detonation module and add it to it. I know the switchbox XRI does not need it. I see in the diagrams that it has a black with white wire going from the detonation module to the control modules. Here is the diagram for you guys who arent familiar with the cdm's..

Thanks everyone for your responses!!!!!!

P>S> how do you multi-quote????

[TheRickster]

It will still run fine with the detonation control unhooked, just the timing will be off slightly. I ran mine for a while with it off..

Have you checked the fuse pod up on the starboard side side near the top to be sure none of the fuses are popped?

Rick

[wrechin2]

It will still run fine with the detonation control unhooked, just the timing will be off slightly. I ran mine for a while with it off..

Have you checked the fuse pod up on the starboard side side near the top to be sure none of the fuses are popped?

Rick

All fuses are good. Figured it would run without the detonation module and I will ground the grey/white wire once I get it figured out. Max timing is set at 22* for now.

It act just like you start it then turn the key off. I bet it is going to be something simple.It can only be 1 thing, but finding that one thing is what is the headach

[Bartman39]

Ok leading back to stator have you tried it without the voltage regs hooked up...? Yep just look`in for something simple...

[samari]

I had a ficht that would do the same thing last year. Everything tested good after about 20 hours trying to figure it out I pulled the flywheel and found the stator bolts sheered off. I tested it for a short, ohms,and cranking output all fine but when it ran the stator would move just enough and short out on the block.

I dought anyone will ever see this again but just throwing it out there.

[wrechin2]

Ok leading back to stator have you tried it without the voltage regs hooked up...? Yep just look`in for something simple...

Both regulators unplugged same thing.

I have tried so much, I have forgotten most of what I have tried!!!!LOL!!. I will go back to the basics. I will clean all my powers and grounds on the engine. Then try another battery.

[wrechin2]

Thanks Samari. Plus these use the different flywheel due to the CDM system. This one has the aluminium band over the magnets. Did you get my PM about your 200 XRI???

[samari]

Yes I did and thanks, I picked it up and at this point I need to sell a motor to finance the new one.

Is this the motor you are building for yourself?

[wrechin2]

No, I got that one done and it is a monster!!! It is still being broke in. This is one I cut to 200 specs, shaved and stuffed the front, heads down to 35CC, cut the block to relieve the booster/ finger port. Bored to .015 on 4 and .030 on 2. I did all the mods and he assembled it. He brought it to me to link and sync it and set the timing ect. When we tried to start it, it was doing this. It has been started at least 60 times and has ran no longer that 2-3 seconds at a time.

Here is the one I just built for myself. It was a 175 idle relief block. It is on a 19' Bullet and has a TON of bottom end torque and midrange. I am surprised it is so strong with a 1:87 and a 26 chopper it has 1/2 boat lenth hole shot, instant response, and that it pulls as hard as it does with a 225 ECU. We GPS it the other night at 65 at around 1/2 throttle. Should be fun once it is broken in and dialed in!!! Sorry for all the tags. I send some pics to people and they don't know what they are looking at!!!! So i explain it.

http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh70/wrechin2/175%20mods/

Thanks again for all your help guys!!!

[pyro]

I think you missed my point. One of those yel/red wires tells the ECU to go rich. The other one comes from the keyswitch. The yel/red wire from the ECU is hooked up to SOMETHING, isn't it?

The problem I had when I owned my XRi was that it would die as soon as I let go of the key when the motor wasn't warm, and the starting cycle was the only thing enabling the enrichment. Please read the thread I linked, I posted it to help in situations like this.

Also, put a timing light on each plug wire and see if you can tie the problem to an ignition issue. The ECU needs to read the ignition pulses, maybe it's messing with them?

Also, look for cracked flywheel magnets, or a bad ECU. That's my best guess.

[wrechin2]

I think you missed my point also. The engine will only run for 2-3 seconds no matter what throttle position it is in from idle to 3k. It is only running on what fuel that is being supplied by the cold start. You can see the injector pulse on the fuel gauge then it has nothing. I have spark on all 6 with a mercronic test at cranking rpm when I set the timing. But I will check the ignition as I have other componets to try. If weather permits I will look at it this a.m.

The yellow-red wire is hooked up to the starter solenoid like it was from the factory. By doing what I did with the starter solenoid, I was doing dasicly what you did in the other thread. I was keeping constant voltage on it by holding the key in the start position while starting with the remote starter, then I took it away by just using the remote start with the key in the run position and started 2-3 seconds both ways and died instantly. I have tried another known good ECU that I had on mine last weekend and it ran fine. Thanks again for your help.

[HeadHunter]

Not sure if it's the same or not, but I looked at a late model 150 (04~05 i believe) with the same issue but I couldn't find the problem. It was taken to a merc dealer and the problem turned out to be one of the CDM modules (this was after the ECU was replaced @ $1600). Since this happened I have heard from others that they have experienced cases where if there was one bad CDM that it would kill the entire engine. Might be something to look at.

Mike

[tlwjkw]

Have ya tried a different fuel pump?

[wrechin2]

I have another CDM system. I have heard of CDM's taking out the whole ignition systems because they are wired in a series on the stator. I also have the test lead for CDM's to check the stator and triger volts and the kill ciruit. I may just start switching out CDM's and see. Takes all but 2 seconds to change them.

Things I plan to do it it stops raining long enough.
1. do a voltage drop test on both the pos and neg to check for internal reisistance on the wires.
2. Go back and clean all powers and grounds.I had one that would turn over but the pump wouldn't come on. Turned out to be a loose ground at the battery.
3. replace cdm's 1 at a time to determine if have 1 bad one.
4. replace triger, stator, and flywheel.

Thanks again for everyones suggestions!!!!!! Sometimes you can't think of the basics thinking of the complex.

[wrechin2]

I have not tried another fuel pump as it has the correct fuel pressure and I am watching the fuel pressure and it only is fluctuating from the heavy injector pulse, then goes right back to 34 psi.

Take one that is running normal, start it and then cut the key right back off. That is the best way to describe it. It is not that it is runing poorly, just won't run past 2-3 seconds. If you hold the throttle open 1/2 inch it will start and rev hard then die still 2-3 seconds.

I have another complete XRI system. Last resort I will swap it out. The only difference is the connector on the TPI is flat. Easy swap. I know the injectors are good as Tony just cleaned and flowed them.

[tlwjkw]

. You can see the injector pulse on the fuel gauge then it has nothing. .

Does this mean you have no pressure after it tries to run?

[wrechin2]

Turn key on, fuel pressure goes to 34-36 psi. turn the engine over the needle fluctuates 3-4 psi from the injector pulse. Engine starts and the fuel pressure goes to 34 psi and stays steedy with no fluctuation. Turn off and fuel pressure takes a very long time to "bleed" off. Probably 3-5 psi in 5 minutes. So it showes to be good.

[tlwjkw]

Gotcha. Bad stator or cdm will shut tha whole thing down like hunter said.....

[wrechin2]

I have all that to swap. If it quits raining long enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wrechin2]

Here is what I got done before it started raining again!!!!!!

1) Voltage drop tested both the psoitive and negative battery leads. I went from the wing nut to the starter solenoid and block. Both were less than 1 volt so I have a good battery connection and wires.

2) I cleaned the grounds at the starter and at the CDM panel. I thought I had found it with some corrosion at the CDM ground terminals at the plate. Still the same....

3) switched a known good cdm in place of each one, one at a time. still the same....

will get more after it quits raining!!!!!

[wrechin2]

Well I found it after changing the flywheel, stator, trigger, another ECU. Went back to the basics. I have always noted that the spark on a CDM engine is always faint when using the merc-tronics 6 lead spark tester compared to switchbox iginition. So I was ready to switch the XRI when I looked at the plugs. It had NGK BU8H plugs in it. I had a set of the Champion QL82C and installed them. It fired right up and kept running. Apparently the plugs were messing with the CDM's.

Would like to say thanks to all who gave suggestions. This is a great site for infomation and sometimes it take a different approach to a problem to figure it out. I knew it would be something simple but not this simple!!!!!

[samari]

Cool Glad you found it.

[shooter1]

Glad you got it figured out. I know I made comment a couple of months ago that I thought that I had these motors figured out and sure enough it humbled me.

Shooter1:cheers:

[Bartman39]

It had NGK BU8H plugs in it. I had a set of the Champion QL82C and installed them. It fired right up and kept running. Apparently the plugs were messing with the CDM's.



Good glad to hear its running... Is this a case of resistor Vs. Non-resistor plugs...? Just to be sure...

[wrechin2]

Yes, the QL82C are a resistor plug. Never would have thought it!!!!!

Thanks again everyone for your support!!!!!!

[TEXAS20225]

CDM stuff :(:(:(:(:(:(
i recently installed the entire cdm system off a 2001/ 200all of it on a 98 200 brand new rebuild this was off a motor wit 3/4pistons blown out the sides (way out)all parts looked clean i could not for the life of me get the system to tell the injectors to put fuel to the motor we checked everything we could think of fuses grounds plug in you could squirt fuel in thru the front it would fire right up but on its own not a chance ??? its back in a tub now motor has regular electrics on it i GAVE UP

[wrechin2]

There is a controll box with 3 connectors. It is a junction port for the triger to send the igntion pulses to the ECU. Without this is will not run or try to start. I found that also as It was not plugged up to start with. The biggest difference is the amount of voltage used. CDM is fed directly off the trigger where a switchbox is being feed off the outputs to the coils. So max volts 15-30V (CDM) versus 300 volts (switchbox). The rest is the same. If you dont have that module plugged up it will not fire up. Mine would start and run 2-3 second then die. Apparently the plug was causing the ignition to shut down and not the injectors.

What plugs did you have???LOL!!!

Did find out a switchbox ECU will run on a CDM engine!!!!!! Shawn at repair told me that it absorbs the voltage and would not hurt a CDM ECU on a switchbox ignition. And that it will work in reverse also with no issues. It ran fine with a switchbox 200 ecu on it.

[TheRickster]

I tried an A17 225PM box on mine one time.. It ran fine but was way too fat on the big end... I could have dropped my fuel pressure and tried to lean it out but I was afraid of what it would do in the midrange so I put the stock A30 back on it..

Rick

[TEXAS20225]

BOX was installed and plugged in how do you check it out?? you know i think i did have bu8h's in it first and it did have resistor plugs i had a brand new set of them and put them in also still would not tell injection system to put fuel in the motor it would pressure up to 34/36 lbs that is correct it would not send it to the cylinders squirt it thru plenum fired up instantly many times.

PS yes you can run A30 boxs on a standard electrics setup i have 2 /30's but like rickster my A6 225pmax Ecu put more fuel in it then it could deal with but mine is a stock 98 200

[TEXAS20225]

I'm getting my Pro Max back from Ruck next week he did his magic to it so off comes the 200 new guts thruout all the way :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[wrechin2]

I tried an A17 225PM box on mine one time.. It ran fine but was way too fat on the big end... I could have dropped my fuel pressure and tried to lean it out but I was afraid of what it would do in the midrange so I put the stock A30 back on it..

Rick

I am currently running a A32 225 ECU on my modified 175 Idle relief engine and it runs good. Still in break in. It has had alot of work done to it and it seems to use the fuel. I tried my A26 200 box on it and they both leave hard and it seems the 225 ECU pulls harder on top for the short burst I have ran it. When it is broke in and I can air it out, I will try both again. For now the 225 is staying on.

[wrechin2]

Bobby,
Did you have the right flywheel? They are differen on a cdm engine. They have a band around the magnets. The control box is a sending a signal to the ecu. I don't think it steps the voltage up. I looked at the wiring diagram and I think it can be bypassed and just need the 3 green wires hooked to the harness like on a switchbox. I will try it if I get a chance and see if it happens. I have a good stator, trigger, control box, a few CDM's and flywheel if you need to borrow to test it. I know these are good as they were on the engine when I chaged the plugs and it started. If you need them to test I can send them to you.

[TEXAS20225]

yes all these stuff were parts of a whole motor i bought i just put it on a 98 i built i aint had ANY experience with this late model lectrics so i was lost anyway:rolleyes: But but i had My bud Tommy Warren trying to help me out an he is as good as they get on these Merc Mysterys I moved on My computer chip up stairs is full any way

[TheRickster]

My biggest complaint with the CDM ignition is that little control box.. It controls the timing as well. When you set your timing static while cranking at 25* it will be at around 18* when it is running. The control box puts the other 7* in above 4500rpm(I think is the RPM). IT makes for a weak holeshot with a thru hub prop.... I talked to Shawn and he said that he could pull the limiter out of that box on a carb motor but had no way of addressing the timing issue.. I asked about jumping over the box for the timing part but leave it hooked up in parellel for the injector signal and he said that the box controls the bias voltage and you risk having very erratic timing...

Rick

[TEXAS20225]

we are talking that Little box that has the three connectors that plug in are we not. when i got it one of them had been un plugged and taped back where it would not reach to plug in again i dont member which one though man i think ill unload mine for a earlier model set up its probably good i just aint smart enough to find out why it did put no gas ta tha mota

[wrechin2]

That is good to know. I know with the Oil injection removed, I cut the blue wire at the module and piggy backed a wire from the oil level switch to the overheat. The control module only set the oil injection off and the water in fuel. So now, witht he piggy back, the water in fuel module will set off the alarm and overheat will set it off. Ran it at the lake today with not problem.

Thanks again for all your help!!!!:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[TheRickster]

Yup, little box on the top of the port cylinder bank.. One plug in and 2 plugs out..

Rick

[wrechin2]

Bobby, It has to have all 3 hooked up or IT WILL NOT RUN! I can vouch for that. 1 is the triger in, 2 is trigger out to CDM's and the 3 is out to the ECU. They used the normal green, green red, and green white to ecu. Look at the diagram I posted earlier. You can see how it is.

[TEXAS20225]

yeah we had no diagram of the wiring i printed yours as soon as you posted it:thumbsup: i will try it on this 2001 Xr6 im fixing to assemble when i get to this again im going to be buggin you:D thanks for the info

[wrechin2]

Bobby,
Do you still have your AOL email address? If so I can email you the WHOLE factory manual for the CDM with ECU manual.

[TEXAS20225]

yes its the same [email protected] thanks a bunch

[wrechin2]

Bobby,
It will come in 2 emails. it is a PDF "active" form. Make sure you got to the folder labeled "cover" and go to the last page in that folder. There you will find all the sections outlined in red. For example if you want to look at the powerhead section, click on it and it will take you to that section of the book then on the left it will have all the section in oulined then you can go right to that section.
Hope it helps ya!!!!

[TheRickster]

You would not happen to have one of those pdf manuals for a 2000 225 ProMax would ya??:D

Rick

[wrechin2]

Will this do ya???

[TheRickster]

That would be the correct one .


Rick

[wrechin2]

Say PLEASE.......and PM me your email address and I will shoot it over to you. :D:D:cheers:

[TheRickster]

Pretty please with whip cream on top ( or a hot redhead with carpeting matching the drapes):rolleyes:


Rick

PM sent

[wrechin2]

Check your email..... Manual sent!

[TheRickster]

Thank you...


Rick

[wrechin2]

No problem. Just read the post for Bobby. This is a active file so you click on the hyperlinks. Very user friendly. I get a chance, I have a 245/260 manual I am going to do the same way. I just have to scan it and set all the links.......