this really pisses me off-new BS law

[GDM]

.

this is complete bullshhitt . whats next , is someone from the government goanna hold my had evereytime I cross the street

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beginning November 1, 2009, Section 40, Subdivision 1 of the New York State Navigation Law shall be amended by adding new paragraph (e), which reads as follows:

No owner or operator of a pleasure vessel less than twenty-one feet, including rowboats, canoes, and kayaks shall permit its operation, between November first and May first, unless each person on board such vessel is wearing a securely fastened United States Coast Guard approved wearable personal flotation device of an appropriate size when such vessel is underway.

Failure to wear a lifejacket on such vessels will be considered a violation under Section 73-c if the Navigation Law and is punishable by a fine of not less than $100 nor more than $250, applicable to either the operator and/or the owner of the vessel.

Information provided by:

www.safeboatingamerica.com
Boating and Personal Watercraft Education and Certification
Merchant Mariner Training

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

I read that to some friends last month that keep their boat in Greenwood Lake...they didn't believe me when I told them....it's true!!!! This was their reasons... The new law recognizes that small boats, cold water and lack of life jackets are a lethal combination. About 90 percent of the people who died in US boating accidents last year were not wearing life jackets. Additionally, even though there are fewer boating deaths in the winter overall, the fatality rate from boating accidents typically increases in the colder months. For example, July of last year saw an 8% fatality rate nationally, compared to 25% in November.

[josh7_78]

F-ing bullchit. that's about it. :eek:

[sleekcrafter]

Having waterskied in mid Febuary, I can see the merit of the law. You forget about the people who have to retrieve the folks that suffer a lesser fate.

[delawarerick]

A similar law was passed for full body suits when offshore fishing below a certain temperature at that time it put alot of the charter boys out of business. Rick

[hydroholic]

I think it's a good law. If my Vector (less than 21 ft) is under way, myself and anybody else in it WILL be wearing a lifejacket no matter what the weather or temp is. When my Well Craft (24 ft cabin cruiser) is under way any children that are on board per Florida law WILL have a lifejacket on. And if I am out in the gulf and the water and weather start to get bad ,then EVERYBODY on board will be wearing one. Thats a rule on my boat! The water ,especially when it is in the dead of winter can be very unforgiving and can take a life very quickly. During the winter time when water temps and air temps are really low,hypothermia can set in fast. The initial shock of falling overboard in these temps can leave you unable to swim or stay on top of the water. Without a PFD, that could be the end. Had a friends dad who was on the way back in from fishing in the gulf with some other guys and the water was really kicking. They were in a 32 ft Contender style fishing boat and it was the middle of winter.Temp was in the low 30's and not sure about water temp but was probably in the low to mid 50's. They hit a big roller the wrong way and he was thrown out of the boat. They said when he hit the water he came directly to the top, flailed a little bit and that was it. He went under probably from lack of ability to function properly due to shock and he drowned. All this happened before they could get the boat turned around and anybody could get to him. So I don't think this is such a bad law. If he had of been wearing a PFD, he may have got hypothermia but at least he could have been brought aboard and warmed up and survived. I live in Florida where it doesn't get near as cold as it does up there, so to me it just makes sense to wear your PFD, especially when it's the winter time. This is just my opinion and my rules.

Hydro

[max200]

Pretty soon we will all be wearing seat belts in our boats

[Liberator*21]

Pretty soon we will all be wearing seat belts in our boats

:iagree:, don't forget that will be right up there with having to wear a helmet and full eye protection as well.......it's all :icon_bs:.

Your tax dollars at work.............:mad::mad:

[whipper]

If your under way every one should wear there PFD. Why is that a big deal. Its a no brainer. The law should also state that anyone with a boat capable of speeds in excess of 60mph MUST wear there kill switch harness while under way also. I cant believe any one would argue about this with all the accidents and fatalities this year of S&F members and others who didn't wear there PFD. What Sue posted should be an eye opener. What does it take to help people realize the importance of wearing your vest and lanyard in a high performance boat especially.

[activator22]

As whipper said, what's the big deal ? (CT enacted a similar this year)

Give the people (and our tax dollars) who waste days on a Search and Rescue/Search and Recovery where the knuckleheads went in w/o a pfd, a break , and that's secondary to the families of those lost for days/weeks (and sometimes never recovered)

If it really bugs people so much, don't wear it, and just pay the fine if you get caught.

[timk578]

Im not taking sides here by any means but that being said im in the Coast Guard on H60 jayhawk search and rescue helicopter and we spend tons of man hours and money on searching for PIW (Persons in water) it makes the job alot easier when the PIW is wearing a PFD. Most times we find the person faster and hopefully alive. Cold water only makes the lifejacket more important a persons body shuts down in a matter of minutes.

[GDM]

.

I cant believe how ,many people think that the government monitoring our every move is a good thing !!!



whatever happened to freedom ? that was a great concept . letting people choose how they wanted to live their lives

so I guess all the people who think this law is ok wont be mad if they put a nationwide speed limit of 40 mph on every recreational boat right . maybe even do away with prop driven drives all together and just make us all use jet drives , we don't need those dangerous props hurting us

maybe eventually we can do away with recreational boating all together cause that water is just tooo dangerous (sarcasm off)



.

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

We have all been there, driving around in a boat without a life jacket and doing silly things, that is human nature when your young and careful. But until you suffer the loss of someone that you love there is absolutely no way to describe the horror of their loss. This is a very upsetting subject for me....I will try and explain as a survivor who suffered and is still suffering from a loss that may have been prevented. When you go out in your boat at speed you are NOT only holding your life in your hands but the lives of the people who love and care about you. I just said to my cousin the other day on the phone, I feel like a part of me DIED when Phil died, a very important part of me. His death not only affected me but affected everyone who loved him, do you know what it feels like to have a child, still cry to you after 2 years and wish they were still here to enjoy life with them, not only family but friends suffer your loss, and if you have good friends they DON'T get over it that easy also. I know he is listening to what I am going to say and he would agree with me, but what was he thinking wearing a ski vest in a boat that went at speeds that his race boat went which he always had a Lifeline or Security jacket on and a kill button, I believe he would have had a better chance of survival with the right gear on. Maybe not, maybe it was just his time to go, who knows, no one knows, but he may have had a better chance without the serious injuries he sustained. I do Thank God he had a jacket on because if I had to live with the fact that he drowned and his body was not found I could NOT live with that fact, I have a hard time living with the fact and these are hard facts, that his neck broke and his spinal cord was severed and his chest was crushed...I live with that fact. Maybe with the right gear on his injuries wouldn't be that severe. God spared us from seeing him that injured but his best friend Jimmy (one of them) did see him that injured and could NOT live with that fact, his last vision of him was with Phil's eyes wide open and absolutely NO life left in him. Jimmy also died when he saw that. So those are the cold hard facts. You can do what you want out on the water, but for you own good and your loved ones good, protect yourself and do everything you can to survive without serious injuries. Think about the people that are left behind!!!!!! you are gone, they have to live.....give yourself every chance you can to be able to walk away. Love your sport, but part of loving your sport is respecting it, that is why protective gear is sold. Think about all the people in the last couple of years who have lost their life and were members on Scream and Fly, your friends, people you have talked to, who are NO longer here. I can recount quit a few and they did not have the right gear on. Look at the people who did survive, Hank and Markus to name a couple....it is your choice but there are people that love you that you leave behind that are left to pick up the pieces and it is very hard to put those pieces back together once your gone...for us, our last vision of Phil was seeing him laying in a coffin dead, don't do that to your loved ones.....those are the cold, hard facts!
Oh and think about the people that try and save your life, they risk their life to save yours.....you can be mad at me and say mind your own business but I care.

[1meanstream]

If your under way every one should wear there PFD. Why is that a big deal. Its a no brainer. The law should also state that anyone with a boat capable of speeds in excess of 60mph MUST wear there kill switch harness while under way also. I cant believe any one would argue about this with all the accidents and fatalities this year of S&F members and others who didn't wear there PFD. What Sue posted should be an eye opener. What does it take to help people realize the importance of wearing your vest and lanyard in a high performance boat especially.

Hi Whipper; the big deal is that the state has NO BUSINESS entering the personal lives of its citizens. NONE NEVER. However as we know you can't p-ss without paying for your water. Some of us are old school meaning we are responsible people and our judgement is superior to the states heavy hand. Some people are not responsible --but thats not an excuse for making the responsible conform to laws for the irresponsible. It won't be long until we are wearing helmets to the mall -- or mandatory eye wear when riding a bike --where does it stop?? The answer is that it does not stop NEVER until the sheep on the street revolt. Nothing personal just trying to answer the question you posed. You really wonder how society progressed without the government--OR IS IT THAT WHEN GOVERNMENTS BECOME OVERPOWERING AND INTRUSIVE YOUR SOCIETY IS DYING--THATS EXACTLY WHATS GOING ON. FIRST THEY TEACH YOU HOW THINK (Public schools) THEN THEY TEACH YOU WHAT TO SAY ( political correctness) THEN THEY TELL YOU WHAT TO DO. Not hard to fiqure out where we are. A good grounding in history of Governments/culture would do many a lot of good. Hope this answers your question.

[GDM]

the big deal is that the state has NO BUSINESS entering the personal lives of its citizens. NONE NEVER. --------It won't be long until we are wearing helmets to the mall -- or mandatory eye wear when riding a bike --where does it stop?? The answer is that it does not stop NEVER until the sheep on the street revolt. -------You really wonder how society progressed without the government--OR IS IT THAT WHEN GOVERNMENTS BECOME OVERPOWERING AND INTRUSIVE YOUR SOCIETY IS DYING--THATS EXACTLY WHATS GOING ON. FIRST THEY TEACH YOU HOW THINK (Public schools) THEN THEY TEACH YOU WHAT TO SAY ( political correctness) THEN THEY TELL YOU WHAT TO DO. Not hard to fiqure out where we are. A good grounding in history of Governments/culture would do many a lot of good. Hope this answers your question.


someone who gets it :cheers:


.

[Liberator*21]

Guy's, I'm not saying anything more than your freedom has been taken away again. It's common sense if you value your life and those with you, you'll be safe and use common sense to do the right thing, and if you don't then you'll have to pay the ultimate price. But to have that driven down your throat by Big Brother, just doesn't sit well with me.........just my opinion.

I live in Ohio where seat belts are the law, but in retrospect, helmets are not required by law for motorcycles if your over the required age limit.......doesn't make allot of sense does it, but I'm all for the ability to make my choice as to what I feel I need to do.

Would you be againist a law that limits "ALL" motorized vehicles to 5 MPH as a top speed, just think of the 10's of thousands of lives that would be saved every year.............

We make cars you can buy off the dealer showroom floor for public use that exceed 160 MPH, same applies with powerboats...........somewhere, someone has to start using there brain and make a personal choice as to what is safe in regards to what their doing and not having someone make that choice for them.................

Peace............

[GDM]

.

I wish I had never posted this thread on here , cause after reading the responses I'm scared of how many brainwashed sheep are out there


.

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

We have all been there, driving around in a boat without a life jacket and doing silly things, that is human nature when your young and careful. But until you suffer the loss of someone that you love there is absolutely no way to describe the horror of their loss. This is a very upsetting subject for me....I will try and explain as a survivor who suffered and is still suffering from a loss that may have been prevented. When you go out in your boat at speed you are NOT only holding your life in your hands but the lives of the people who love and care about you. I just said to my cousin the other day on the phone, I feel like a part of me DIED when Phil died, a very important part of me. His death not only affected me but affected everyone who loved him, do you know what it feels like to have a child, still cry to you after 2 years and and wish they were still here to enjoy life with them, not only family but friends suffer your loss, and if you have good friends they DON'T get over it that easy also. I know he is listening to what I am going to say and he would agree with me, but what was he thinking wearing a ski vest in a boat that went at speeds that his race boat went which he always had a Lifeline or Security jacket on and a kill button, I believe he would have had a better chance of survival with the right gear on. Maybe not, maybe it was just his time to go, who knows, no one knows, but he may have had a better chance without the serious injuries he sustained. I do Thank God he had a jacket on because if I had to live with the fact that he drowned and his body was not found I could NOT live with that fact, I have a hard time living with the fact and these are hard facts, that his neck broke and his spinal cord was severed and his chest was crushed...I live with that fact. Maybe with the right gear on his injuries wouldn't be that severe. God spared us from seeing him that injured but his best friend Jimmy (one of them) did see him that injured and could NOT live with that fact, his last vision of him was with Phil's eyes wide open and absolutely NO life left in him. Jimmy also died when he saw that. So those are the cold hard facts. You can do what you want out on the water, but for you own good and your loved ones good, protect yourself and do everything you can to survive without serious injuries. Think about the people that are left behind!!!!!! you are gone, they have to live.....give yourself every chance you can to be able to walk away. Love your sport, but part of loving your sport is respecting it, that is why protective gear is sold. Think about all the people in the last couple of years who have lost their life and were members on Scream and Fly, your friends, people you have talked to, who are NO longer here. I can recount quit a few and they did not have the right gear on. Look at the people who did survive, Hank and Markus to name a couple....it is your choice but there are people that love you that you leave behind that are left to pick up the pieces and it is very hard to put those pieces back together once your gone...for us, our last vision of Phil was seeing him laying in a coffin dead, don't do that to your loved ones.....those are the cold, hard facts!
Oh and think about the people that try and save your life, they risk their life to save yours.....you can be mad at me and say mind your own business but I care.


Oops, one other thing, I am in agreement with you about the government dictating how we should live and what we should do, after all my favorite license plate reads "LIVE FREE OR DIE" but I guess we wouldn't have those laws being passed about boating, if there weren't so much "Loss Of Life" and so so many irresponsible boaters out there...please don't get me wrong, I do believe it should be a personal choice and not something mandated by the government, common sense is the best sense.

[Liberator*21]

.

I wish I had never posted this thread on here , cause after reading the responses I'm scared of how many brainwashed sheep are out there


.


:iagree:, scarry isn't it................

[activator22]

.

I wish I had never posted this thread on here , cause after reading the responses I'm scared of how many brainwashed sheep are out there


.

You have the choice to delete the thread..

[DerStream]

All that this law is going to do is aid in recovery of the body, because without a survival suit, I have done training with survival suits & what not for Merchant Mariner training, if you go into even 60 degree water its only a matter of time before you die of hypothermia. I dont like it anymore then the next guy, but atleast it gives you a little bit of a chance by keeping you head above water. But the fines are absolutely ludacris. Up here on the island its mainly directed at the fisherman.

[Forkin' Crazy]

Well I am for it!!! I think we need to all wear impact protected PDFs no matter what temperature, time of year, or weather conditions! Hey they only cost 500 bucks and I know not every one can afford them, that is why I am starting a government sponsored program to help finance this. Every one will be required to wear impact protected PDFs no matter how fast your boat is. Also required to wear will be a full face helmet, eye protection, and helmet restraints. You never know when you may fall down in your flat boat. Hell we need to have required licenses to the type and size craft you operate. You can't just jump into your friend’s boat with out being checked out by a certified government appointed marine expert!

I also think it should be required to wear a helmet and other protective gear while in the shower or bath tub. Just think of how many head trauma cases and fatalities we would prevent if every one wore a helmet and protective gear in the shower!

Jeeeze, some of you people are idiots. This is not about safety, just like seat belts, open container, etc.... IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY AND CONTROL!!! :o

[Liberator*21]

Well I am for it!!! I think we need to all wear impact protected PDFs no matter what temperature, time of year, or weather conditions! Hey they only cost 500 bucks and I know not every one can afford them, that is why I am starting a government sponsored program to help finance this. Every one will be required to wear impact protected PDFs no matter how fast your boat is. Also required to wear will be a full face helmet, eye protection, and helmet restraints. You never know when you may fall down in your flat boat. Hell we need to have required licenses to the type and size craft you operate. You can't just jump into your friend’s boat with out being checked out by a certified government appointed marine expert!

I also think it should be required to wear a helmet and other protective gear while in the shower or bath tub. Just think of how many head trauma cases and fatalities we would prevent if every one wore a helmet and protective gear in the shower!

Jeeeze, some of you people are idiots. This is not about safety, just like seat belts, open container, etc.... IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY AND CONTROL!!! :o

Where the hell were you during the elections, I'd have voted for you in a heart beat to run this country............now that's what I'm talk'n about..............:cheers::cheers:

[max200]

Don't regulate! Educate! If the government was really concerned about our safety they would offer boating safety and water survival courses for free. but this is just another way for local government to increase their budgets continously plus revenue from ticketing. I still think it should be our choice I.M.O.

[GDM]

.

yeah this world is too dangerous

lets limit all cars to 30 mph and make then out of plastic and then coat them in 15 inches of foam rubber , of course well be strapped safely inside in a 5 point restraint with our helmets on and fire retardant suits as well

lets do away with the dangerous vehicles that we cant be safe on altogether , motorcycles , quads , snowmobiles etc etc cause there is no way the government can come up with a way to make sure were safe on those dangerous things


we should either do way with recreational boats altogether or limit them to oar powered rubber rafts that we well be allowed to row up to 100 ft from shore while wearing a life jacket and wetsuit , we can use them during daylight hours on calm days that fall within the guidelines and weather restrictions our government sets up . not too hot , not too cold , not too choppy , not too windy etc etc

the world can be a safer place if we limit ourselves



.

[1meanstream]

There are more people killed in jet ski drownings than any other boating mishaps. They also are more prone to be wearing a jacket and having training--so I guess they should have to wear 2 jackets and a full faced helmet. Also approx 1000 infants die in bath tub drownings ---put jackets with legstraps on those kids and a helmet also --you know just in case johnny slips. Can never be to safe can we? lol

[DerStream]

why dont we all just walk around in those giant hampster balls, we'd all be alot safer

[bulletbob]

The goverment, who employ's me doesn't give a damn about myself or any ones safety. This is just another means of generating income for the feds. Next will be pfd's in the shower. Sue I appreciate your true concern for the boating public,but from someone who has worked for the Feds since 1982 this law is just another means of taxation by ticket! Have a nice day!

[BoatGoFaster1]

Warning: do not read if you do not want to be offended.

damn that government for taking our freedom away, what's next. First they want me to wear a life jacket when the water temperature can cause hypothermia (what the hell were they thinking?) , next they will make me wear sunglasses in the bright sun. The government has no right at all to force these things on us.

On the other hand, when you fall overboard, or crash or get run into by a stupid jetski, the government has absolutly no business to send rescue boats, helicopters, marine police to save your ass. those things cost a lot of $$. Why should taxpayers have to give a damn about saving your ass?

I say, it works both ways. If the Flotation device laws are so intrusive, then those laws are null and void. The sharks will eat your body,if not the sharks, then the kids will have something to poke at when you wash up on shore. Seatow will be happy to perform salvage operation and send your grieving kids a bill. Forget about all the long searches to find your dead body just so that your wife can have closure and bury you. Its all just intrusion by the government.

This is probably one of the stupidest threads I have ever seen on this site. With all the crashes, fatalities, injuries we are aware of we should be insisting on Mandatory life preserver, kill switch requirements and anti jetski laws. And not just for speed, accidents happen at 6 knots also. I do assume that most folks want their ass saved when the day goes bad. There has been comments on here, like why didn't the fishermen jump out of their boat to save someone, why didn't the coast guard search longer, etc.... So, if you want saved then it should be a requirement/law to do your part to be saved. Wearing life jackets in cold weather, duh, it makes sense.

Maybe we need a "let me die flag" to put on your boat, if you don't want intrusion.

I always thought the law that little kids need a life preserver but daddy doesn't is stupid. So, the family goes out for a nice Sunday boat ride and disaster strikes. Daddy gets thrown overboard and drowns, mommy dies also, but the kids... orphans are safe.... maybe its daddy's fault, his estate is sued, the kids have no parents, money anything, now they have to sell drugs on the corner to survive.

You haven't lived until you have had an on the water crash. You dont just open the door and stand on the side of the road waiting for help. I was in my slow boat and a jet ski slammed into me at what seemed to be his top speed. The force of the impact was tremendous. I remember his head was a little to close to mine. If he would have actually hit my body, then probably I would have been knocked out of the boat unconscious, maybe dead. No life jacket , i would have sunk like a rock and the crabs would have had a feast. Luckily, for me I just had a death grip on the steering wheel and just got bruised. As the jetskier was flying through the air, his life jacket kept him floating when he hit the water so that he was rescued and had the nice helicopter ride to shock trauma.

Come on, you freedom loving guys, some things need to be required as law, people are to stupid to follow common sense, but on the other hand they expect and demand that the search and rescue come and save them.

Since that day, its life jackets and kill switches 100% of the time, for anybody in my boat, or any boat I am in.

I support 100% life jacket laws for anyone on the water(unless you are flying the let me die flag).

[Forkin' Crazy]

Thanks for participating in "one of the stupidest threads" you've seen on this site. ;)

Maybe it was your fault for being in the jet skier’s way. How did he hit you? Maybe you should have been aware of your surroundings and used scanning techniques as to have seen him and avoided the crash. Maybe you should be required to have a capsule capable of sustaining a direct hit from a kamikaze jet skier.

There is something called personally responsibility. You get the government involved in that, and there go more of our personal rights.

Sadly there is also something else that is missing here also, and that is common sense.

Just give me the "let me die flag", I guess! :rolleyes:

[BoatGoFaster1]

The jetskier was at fault, i am not going to explain all the details.

I will send out Let me die flags, as well as shop at walmart buttons.

The point is, most people EXPECT and DEMAND that the government save their ass.

I as a taxpayer, do not give a damn about your ass, and I do not want to spend 1 rotten dime to save it.

I most certainly do not want to spend extra money in your search and rescue because people are to dumb to take necessary safety precautions.

And in no way do I want your dead ass washing up under my pier, because you didnt wear a life jacket and it took months for you to bubble up.

but, let the coast guard, fire deparment, marine units not save you and you will bitch.

since fishermen in New York evidently are to stupid to take cold weather precautions, it is now a law. I guess to many of them fell over board relieving themselves in the winter and rasied the search and resuce costs. (by the way, relieving yourself over the side and falling in is a #1 problem on the water!)

[150aintenuff]

the law itself isnt horable... but its basis is flawed.... because the number of boaters out that time of year is so much smaller than july... seas are worse, and the number of incidents you hear about go up because you cant just swim back out in sub 60 degree water where as in july at 65+ alot of things happen that no body hears about because the condition are better

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

Warning: do not read if you do not want to be offended.

damn that government for taking our freedom away, what's next. First they want me to wear a life jacket when the water temperature can cause hypothermia (what the hell were they thinking?) , next they will make me wear sunglasses in the bright sun. The government has no right at all to force these things on us.

On the other hand, when you fall overboard, or crash or get run into by a stupid jetski, the government has absolutly no business to send rescue boats, helicopters, marine police to save your ass. those things cost a lot of $$. Why should taxpayers have to give a damn about saving your ass?

I say, it works both ways. If the Flotation device laws are so intrusive, then those laws are null and void. The sharks will eat your body,if not the sharks, then the kids will have something to poke at when you wash up on shore. Seatow will be happy to perform salvage operation and send your grieving kids a bill. Forget about all the long searches to find your dead body just so that your wife can have closure and bury you. Its all just intrusion by the government.

This is probably one of the stupidest threads I have ever seen on this site. With all the crashes, fatalities, injuries we are aware of we should be insisting on Mandatory life preserver, kill switch requirements and anti jetski laws. And not just for speed, accidents happen at 6 knots also. I do assume that most folks want their ass saved when the day goes bad. There has been comments on here, like why didn't the fishermen jump out of their boat to save someone, why didn't the coast guard search longer, etc.... So, if you want saved then it should be a requirement/law to do your part to be saved. Wearing life jackets in cold weather, duh, it makes sense.

Maybe we need a "let me die flag" to put on your boat, if you don't want intrusion.

I always thought the law that little kids need a life preserver but daddy doesn't is stupid. So, the family goes out for a nice Sunday boat ride and disaster strikes. Daddy gets thrown overboard and drowns, mommy dies also, but the kids... orphans are safe.... maybe its daddy's fault, his estate is sued, the kids have no parents, money anything, now they have to sell drugs on the corner to survive.

You haven't lived until you have had an on the water crash. You dont just open the door and stand on the side of the road waiting for help. I was in my slow boat and a jet ski slammed into me at what seemed to be his top speed. The force of the impact was tremendous. I remember his head was a little to close to mine. If he would have actually hit my body, then probably I would have been knocked out of the boat unconscious, maybe dead. No life jacket , i would have sunk like a rock and the crabs would have had a feast. Luckily, for me I just had a death grip on the steering wheel and just got bruised. As the jetskier was flying through the air, his life jacket kept him floating when he hit the water so that he was rescued and had the nice helicopter ride to shock trauma.

Come on, you freedom loving guys, some things need to be required as law, people are to stupid to follow common sense, but on the other hand they expect and demand that the search and rescue come and save them.

Since that day, its life jackets and kill switches 100% of the time, for anybody in my boat, or any boat I am in.

I support 100% life jacket laws for anyone on the water(unless you are flying the let me die flag).

Wow...boatgofaster1 David...that was a good post!!! There are laws that are made because there are to many accidents, death, etc...and your right a lot of people don't have common sense, but it doesn't matter because accidents happen at any given time to any given person no matter how experienced someone thinks they are... In the same breath, we have ALL been there at some point in our life, doing reckless things, hopefully we learn from our mistakes. I also think this way, would you hand the keys to your child maybe in there 20's (age doesn't really matter) and say here's the keys take the boat out, have a great time, drive as fast as you want and see if you can get the boat over 100 mph oh and by the way you don't have to wear a life jacket, helmet or kill switch, you should be fine!!!!! You are doing the same thing to your loved ones. Every time those boats reach speed in a split second it can be over, and seat belts (lol, that's a joke) won't mean a thing when the boat disintegrates and your body is thrown around like a rag doll. Until you have experienced what happens on the water in an accident, or have experienced watching people die or become paralyzed from a boat accident then maybe it's harder to understand...Without a jacket you will sink and your body will be washed up to shore one day (hopefully). Then try and explain that to a spouse, mother, father, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, friend, etc...when it all could have been prevented....every one of you has someone who cares about you at home....

[Kimmerly.performance]

Just stick something on your bow so your boat is longer in the winter! or get that 12inch Jack plate back you wanted anyway, I'm sure you could argue the point.

[DerStream]

Boatgofaster1 : I do have to agree with you on a lot of your points.

Except : since fishermen in New York evidently are to stupid to take cold weather precautions, it is now a law. I guess to many of them fell over board relieving themselves in the winter and rasied the search and resuce costs. (by the way, relieving yourself over the side and falling in is a #1 problem on the water!)

I am one of those Fisherman and this one came out of left field on us. Dont be so quick to judge, our crews can get our own out of the water without the CG or locals help, thats what crew training is for. Only time you need the Coasties is if your sinking or on fire.

Sue : your point should be heard loud and clear because if someone doesnt understand that this is only for they're own good then they are dummies.

[mr_velocity]

I am not for it as written. However, I am for adding a clause that says "If you fail to wear a pfd your estate will be billed for the s&r costs." That way you are free to make the choice.

[DerStream]

they say it is something around $30,000 an hour to conduct a s & r between Helo's & patrol craft...how it breaks down im not sure.

[BoatGoFaster1]

derstream.

point taken, but your mentioning crews. This law is for 21' and under, including kayaks, canoes.

You must be running a bigger boat, professional fisherman to have a crew.

[1meanstream]

Hi Sue; if a lot of laws are made for stupid people or those with no common sense, as you stated--- how long does it take to get to the really really stupid ones.

[DerStream]

big boats yes, but at the same time there are a bunch of us that have small garveys 19ft that check traps and fish pots and you never go out alone.

This rule will only benefit not hurt, unless you really hate the man and are going to go out everytime without a life jacket just dispite the government, all you will be doing is racking up tickets and feeding more money into the system.

wear the damn life jacket & be done with it.

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

Hi Ya,
I guess and this is only my opinion because I don't know anything about laws being made, my opinion is that there must be enough accidents for them to even fathom making a law out of something that is involved with a sport, they can't just pull it out of thin air, maybe they can, I don't know. I hope that makes sense.
Another point is this we have Phil, Airman, David, Tony among many other who lost their life doing what they loved. We are only given "ONE LIFE TO LIVE" they now lost their one life. If anyone of them were given the chance to relive that life over again, don't you think everyone of them would have changed what they did on that fateful day. Maybe they would have put on protective gear and given themselves a better chance of survival!!!!! I think about them often, I think about what happened to David and Tony all the time and how much heartache their families had to go through before their bodies were even recovered, it all could have been prevented by wearing a life jacket, and their families wouldn't have had to suffer their fate....they are gone but I am sure they would have done things differently. We are only given this one life here on earth.

[Forkin' Crazy]

There are laws that are made because there are to many accidents, death, etc...

But when does it end? When I will be mandatory for use to wear sun screen or other sun protectants? UV’s cause cancer and cancer kills! Apparently you and others don’t understand where I am coming from.


I also think this way, would you hand the keys to your child maybe in there 20's (age doesn't really matter) and say here's the keys take the boat out, have a great time, drive as fast as you want and see if you can get the boat over 100 mph oh and by the way you don't have to wear a life jacket, helmet or kill switch, you should be fine!!!!! You are doing the same thing to your loved ones. Every time those boats reach speed in a split second it can be over, and seat belts (lol, that's a joke) won't mean a thing when the boat disintegrates and your body is thrown around like a rag doll.

How did this point even enter the argument? We are not talking race boats, we are talking fishing boats, in the winter time. Wearing a PFD in bad and cold conditions should be a no brainer. But so should using a rubber mat in a slippery bath tub. And then… should the gov regulate that all of us that run 100mph boats wear a helmet and all the appropriate safety gear? No, they will just cut to the chase and out law them completely.


Until you have experienced what happens on the water in an accident, or have experienced watching people die or become paralyzed from a boat accident then maybe it's harder to understand...Without a jacket you will sink and your body will be washed up to shore one day (hopefully). Then try and explain that to a spouse, mother, father, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, friend, etc...when it all could have been prevented....every one of you has someone who cares about you at home....

Like I said, that can work both ways. I’ve lost way more friends due to motorcycle and auto accidents than in boats. Maybe we should outlaw motorcycles and require NASCAR type safely regs to our normal passenger cars.

This is akin to “Pandora’s Box”. The further you open it, you may not be able to close it back even though you don’t like the results. Laws are a lot easier to employ that they are to make disappear.

[1meanstream]

Hi Sue, My thought is that the wearing of saftey stuff is a good idea at speed. I think most would agree. What some of us object to is the state interfering and with a heavy hand. Some of us are NOT children and we don't need them period. They call big government a nanny state ----appropriately named I might add. I am not there child --nor do I want there poor record of decision making influencing my boating activities or anything else. The state could care less about its citizens.

[BoatGoFaster1]

Apparently you and others don’t understand where I am coming from.

we are talking fishing boats, in the winter time. Wearing a PFD in bad and cold conditions should be a no brainer.



Now I understand where you are coming from, your're in the deep south Louisiana , you think winter is 60 degrees and a few clouds, put your coat on!!!

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

Hummmmm...Forkin, I have to think this out a little...have to run out right now but will be back :eek:...at any speed accidents happen or you could be in a row boat and get bashed from behind. I think there are different circumstances, I was a little shocked to hear the new law and at first I was like what :confused: by it. But reading what the others have said about rescues in cold water it makes more sense to me now why they implimented it for those few months.

[Riverratt]

In PA most boating fatalities happen in the spring and fall. This has nothing to do with boating accidents. The fatalities happen usually while hunting and fishing in cold weather standing up in the boat and they end up capsizing or falling overboard and drowning due to hypothermia coupled with the fact that there are no other boats around to save you because it is cold out to be boating. Don't blame the government blame the careless fisherman and hunters for these laws.

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

Dam, this computer is an anchor for me today, but please correct me if I am wrong!!!!!
This is a New York State Law and not a government issued law!!! so blame the state of NY if you don't agree with it.
"When it's cold, it doesn't take much to put you under and heavy clothing will be an anchor." Who the heck wants to be in freezing cold water trying to S&R for someone who didn't want to wear a jacket. To each his own, you want to go out and risk your life that's your thing, pay the fine if you get caught or better yet go fight city hall...if you have enough signatures, you can put up a good fight...I care about people and safety should come first not only for you but for those trying to save you. I don't want to argue with anyone especially you Forkin, because well I like ya. This is just a NY State law.....

[chrispallen]

in the "live free or die" state of New Hampshire where i live, if you need to be rescued the authorities will take into consideration what you did to put yourself in the situation in the first place and if it is determined that you caused the issue (for example a hiker heading out without the proper equipment for cold temps, etc) they will bill you for the cost of the rescue.

I have no problem being accountable for the cost of the rescue, but what starts with a law "looking out for us" turns into more laws that kill the economy.

For example, Lake Winnipesaukee is the largest lake in New Hampshire, approximately 72 square miles. this year they put a 45 mph speed limit on the lake because in the last couple of years there were some high profile fatal accidents. The problem is that they put the law in place not to keep the speeds down in the harbors, where there is the most traffic, but as an all encompassing law. End result was that overall on the lake this year the businesses are down because the boat traffic is down.

If anyone from NH wants to add to this feel free. so a law that was for the overall safety of boaters has killed business around the lake and those that had performance boats are taking them elsewhere or selling them.

on the lake that I am on, the tree huggers are trying to pass rules limiting horsepower and jetskis totally. pretty soon we can be sitting On Golden Pond watching the wooden row boat go past.

because someone ELSE (ie: some fatass liberal) knows what is best for me.

[activator22]

in the "live free or die" state of New Hampshire where i live, if you need to be rescued the authorities will take into consideration what you did to put yourself in the situation in the first place and if it is determined that you caused the issue (for example a hiker heading out without the proper equipment for cold temps, etc) they will bill you for the cost of the rescue.

I have no problem being accountable for the cost of the rescue, but what starts with a law "looking out for us" turns into more laws that kill the economy.

For example, Lake Winnipesaukee is the largest lake in New Hampshire, approximately 72 square miles. this year they put a 45 mph speed limit on the lake because in the last couple of years there were some high profile fatal accidents. The problem is that they put the law in place not to keep the speeds down in the harbors, where there is the most traffic, but as an all encompassing law. End result was that overall on the lake this year the businesses are down because the boat traffic is down.

If anyone from NH wants to add to this feel free. so a law that was for the overall safety of boaters has killed business around the lake and those that had performance boats are taking them elsewhere or selling them.

on the lake that I am on, the tree huggers are trying to pass rules limiting horsepower and jetskis totally. pretty soon we can be sitting On Golden Pond watching the wooden row boat go past.

because someone ELSE (ie: some fatass liberal) knows what is best for me.


C'mon, boating and business relating to boating are down everywhere because of the whole economy. To try and lay it all on a speed limit law is just silly.

CT has had speed limit laws in place on it's rivers and lakes for a number of years, I can say I haven't noticed a drop off in boating or performance boats because of it (come to the CT River Run and see for yourself)

What is getting lost here is that the majority of tax payers are non-boaters and when they are presented with a choice between saving money or "infringing" on someone's personal choice, it's a no-brainer on which way they are going to lean.

[rockman69]

There is a certain group on this board that if the law went the other way and forbade the use of PFD's at certain times of the year, on specific length of boat, etc., they would STILL be whining.

Its not the acts in the law, its the fact that they are being directed BY law.

My opinion on the matter, many laws are put into motion because people dont have the sense to be responsible, like little children, they must be told to behave in a certain manner for their own good.

[1meanstream]

There is a certain group on this board that if the law went the other way and forbade the use of PFD's at certain times of the year, on specific length of boat, etc., they would STILL be whining.

Its not the acts in the law, its the fact that they are being directed BY law.

My opinion on the matter, many laws are put into motion because people dont have the sense to be responsible, like little children, they must be told to behave in a certain manner for their own good.

Thats very true but the people who are not children are offended being treated like one. Its why society always moves to the lowest common denominator as it rots.

[chrispallen]

C'mon, boating and business relating to boating are down everywhere because of the whole economy. To try and lay it all on a speed limit law is just silly.

CT has had speed limit laws in place on it's rivers and lakes for a number of years, I can say I haven't noticed a drop off in boating or performance boats because of it (come to the CT River Run and see for yourself)

What is getting lost here is that the majority of tax payers are non-boaters and when they are presented with a choice between saving money or "infringing" on someone's personal choice, it's a no-brainer on which way they are going to lean.

I hear what you are saying, but the problem is definitely multiplied by the speed limit. a lot of people just don't want to deal with the marine patrol, cause once they stop you for speed, it opens up the whole drinking problem.... which is another whole thread!

[whipper]

There is a certain group on this board that if the law went the other way and forbade the use of PFD's at certain times of the year, on specific length of boat, etc., they would STILL be whining.

Its not the acts in the law, its the fact that they are being directed BY law.

My opinion on the matter, many laws are put into motion because people dont have the sense to be responsible, like little children, they must be told to behave in a certain manner for their own good.
:iagree: I hate being dictated to by the dam government probably more than anyone!! I dont talk potitics because it makes me very angry. I hate taxes and I hate laws and I break them all the time because I do as I want when I want and know one is going to tell me what to do. My point is simply if your not wearing your floatation device and lanyard in a boat that can travell at a high rate of speed what ever that is? Call it 60mph ++++++ Then your not being a resonsable performance boater. Like it or not thats the overwelming facts that I believe. I dont care about any other type of boat. Row boat ya I woulnt go in a row boat if I had to wear a life vest I can tell you that much!! Wear not on a rowboat site called Sleep and ROW!! Its Called SCREAM and FLY! If your at a drag race and your not wearing a helmut and a PFD that is of the highest standards you dont race! A lot of us hear use there same boat that they use in the races as a pleasure boat also and will be driving her much the same as if they were in a race. So if you feel you needed that stuff then you will shurly need it in an uncontroled setting like pleasure boating. Whats the differance? Your told by the officials and the rules YOU MUST COMPLIE and know one says hey dude Im old school I dont need that crap just let me race its free country.
I dont agree with the rowboat thing. The only boats I care about not wearing there PFD is performance boats. Ive seen first hand what happens to people who dont wear them and get into a accedent. I guess there will always be folks that think this sortoff thing only happens to other people not them. What ever then dont wear them I dont care. Im just saying what I believe is best for me.
Just one more thing TRUE STORY. On Sunday I was out prop testing. I put my safty vest on and hooked up the kill switch. I was the only person on the lake. I started off and first run got her up to 90mph. I thought great i like this prop. I then thought because i never even tried that run Im going to string her out a bit and see how high i can run this prop so I know. I hit the gas then stopped. I thought of RedAllison. He had a bad blow out and was hospilized a few months back running a prop on someone elses boat a little high not being familiare with that boat. He suffered head injurys and a nesty gash when his head hit the boat on the way out. I thought of my kids and wife and put my helmut on that never leaves the boat. I thought if Im going to run the ragged edge and somthing happens with no one hear to save me I want to be fully protected so I can kiss my kids goodnight that night. Thats just me.Thats what happen. Like I think the row boat crap and other types I dont care about. I think the law is good for boaters like the majority hear on S&F not the ones on Ski USA. Though I would like to see every one wear then all the time like the old days. Thats not going to happen. I hat having anything stuffed down my throat the same as the next guy. I just think Performance boaters should wear them my own person opinion. Its hard to justify not wearing a life jacket at 100mph+.

[Sheer Insanity]

That makes 22+ foot boats more valuable :thumbsup:. Anybody looking for one??:rolleyes:

[whipper]

That makes 22+ foot boats more valuable :thumbsup:. Anybody looking for one??:rolleyes:
Dang I forgot what the ruleing said about 22ft or less.:nonod: Thats great the market might be floaded with 21ft Skaters soon and ripe for the picken and Row boats :thumbsup:

[JR IN JAX]

Boatgofaster1 : I do have to agree with you on a lot of your points.

Except : since fishermen in New York evidently are to stupid to take cold weather precautions, it is now a law. I guess to many of them fell over board relieving themselves in the winter and rasied the search and resuce costs. (by the way, relieving yourself over the side and falling in is a #1 problem on the water!)

I am one of those Fisherman and this one came out of left field on us. Dont be so quick to judge, our crews can get our own out of the water without the CG or locals help, thats what crew training is for. Only time you need the Coasties is if your sinking or on fire.

Sue : your point should be heard loud and clear because if someone doesnt understand that this is only for they're own good then they are dummies.
We have at least one person a year who takes a pee standing on the back of their boat and drowns. There is always alcohol involved. Maybe there needs to be a law that every boat has a John in it to save lives.

Let me get this right, If I wear a life preserver and end up in the water somehow the Government won't have to look for me?

[Phil's other half...Sue.]

We have at least one person a year who takes a pee standing on the back of their boat and drowns. There is always alcohol involved. Maybe there needs to be a law that every boat has a John in it to save lives.

Let me get this right, If I wear a life preserver and end up in the water somehow the Government won't have to look for me?


OMG...I just cracked up laughing, some of the responses on these threads are really pretty funny :D:D that was good and lightened the mood.....

[mirage243]

I have started and participated in many threads concerning life jackets, kill switches, safety etc., but I'm still flabergasted at the number of people who believe it is the governments job to dictate what is safe and what is not.

If you want to go out in cold weather and run 100 mph in 2 foot chop in a 500 lb. boat then I say.....................Good Riddance........................... It's better that your not around to endanger the rest of us.

The ones that disagree with this, .....................your idiots.

[Hank W]

I agree we ought to wear PFDs in our boats. Maybe even helmets. I, like many of you, do not agree I should be forced to. Many states don't require you to wear a helmet on a motorcycle, but require you to wear a seatbelt in your road vehicle. We all tend to support laws by our government(s) when we agree with them. But once the door is slightly open, there is a chance it can get pushed wide open. Let's just think about the chances of a majority deciding that we fast boat driving wild people should not be allowed to drive our boats at all. You think, no way? Don't be so sure. And by the way, many already think we shouldn't be allowed to waste the fuel. What if that becomes law? Our government should provide a military, emergency personnel, & highways. Leave the rest to the people! PLEASE!!

[1meanstream]

God I love common sense

[BoatGoFaster1]

but I'm still flabergasted at the number of people who believe it is the governments job to dictate what is safe and what is not.

If you want to go out in cold weather and run 100 mph in 2 foot chop in a 500 lb. boat then I say.....................Good Riddance........................... It's better that your not around to endanger the rest of us.

The ones that disagree with this, .....................your idiots.

While I agree with your good riddance thought, the problem is, when the mentally challenged go out and do that and have a problem, then its up to the Government to save his ass. Puts them in harms way and costs money.

So, since most of society expects to be saved and since being rescued is assumed to be a government function, then yeah, they can make a law to make their job a little easier.

Go back a few years, you remember all the complaining when the coast guard stopped towing recreational boats. People moaned and groaned, now we pay seatow. perhaps, seatow needs to start a people rescue service, lets call it undertow.... you know bring the body to the undertakers.

But what do I know, we're just 2 village idiots pissing in the wind.

[BoatGoFaster1]

Our government should provide emergency personnel,

Thats the problem, you want the government function of emergency personnel, i.e. pulling your body out of the water.

If the government is required to perform that service then they can tell you to wear life jackets, kill switches, etc.

[mirage243]

Thats the problem, you want the government function of emergency personnel, i.e. pulling your body out of the water.

If the government is required to perform that service then they can tell you to wear life jackets, kill switches, etc.

Your disciminating against the sharks and crabs, whassa matter with you?:D

[BoatGoFaster1]

Your disciminating against the sharks and crabs, whassa matter with you?:D

And the alligators:cheers:

[GDM]

So, since most of society expects to be saved and since being rescued is assumed to be a government function, then yeah, they can make a law to make their job a little easier.



so will it be ok when the government tells us boats can only have a maximim speed of 10 mph , and you can only boat in good weather , and be within a safe distance from shore ,while weaing a lifejacket and a wetsuit , and only after you pass a swmming test

or what if they just do away with boating all together , someone might need some help and cost a non boating taxpayer some money , its too much of a burden so why even allow people to go boating ? right ?

.

[DerStream]

JR IN JAX : We have at least one person a year who takes a pee standing on the back of their boat and drowns. There is always alcohol involved. Maybe there needs to be a law that every boat has a John in it to save lives.

Let me get this right, If I wear a life preserver and end up in the water somehow the Government won't have to look for me?


I Piss off the back of my boat all the time, usually with a few beers in me with boat wakes rocking me all over the place and Ive never ended up in the water, maybe those people that fall in because they are too hammered are probebly safer in the water then operating a boat that smashed.

And the time of year they are refering to up here is cold and the water can kill you in 10 min, down near you you guys think 60 is cold, up here if your out that time of year on the water your most likely not alone, So your buddy will get you out of the water, you will not radio the Coasties for that, again unless your sinking or on fire you will not be radioing them.

If your dumb ass falls off the back of the boat hammered by yourself that time of year without a life jacket then you will be fish food.

[ssent]

Most bad government has grown out of too much government. - Thomas Jefferson

Small government gives you big freedoms—and big government leaves you with very little freedom. People have never learned to fight for their freedom, most are only good at enjoying it. Liberty and freedom are seldom lost all at once, but rather bit by bit.

I'd rather die a free man than a ward of the state. - ssent

[BoatGoFaster1]

so will it be ok when the government tells us boats can only have a maximim speed of 10 mph , and you can only boat in good weather , and be within a safe distance from shore ,while weaing a lifejacket and a wetsuit , and only after you pass a swmming test

or what if they just do away with boating all together , someone might need some help and cost a non boating taxpayer some money , its too much of a burden so why even allow people to go boating ? right ?

.

I'm kinda convinced that between the sharks, crabs and alligators things can be handled. :eek:

[Forkin' Crazy]

You know, you seemed to be a lot more polite in your PM to me, which was unnecessary by the way!


The jetskier was at fault, i am not going to explain all the details.

I will send out Let me die flags, as well as shop at walmart buttons.

Maybe so, but couldn’t you have prevented it if you had been paying more attention to your surroundings? I guess the later was a fail attempt at being humorous.


The point is, most people EXPECT and DEMAND that the government save their ass.

And THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM! No personal resposibilty! When ever something bad happens, it is always something or some one else’s fault!


I as a taxpayer, do not give a damn about your ass, and I do not want to spend 1 rotten dime to save it.

Good, for you. I really don’t feel like that. So if you fall in the water and need help, I’ll help you whether you have a PFD on or not.


I most certainly do not want to spend extra money in your search and rescue because people are to dumb to take necessary safety precautions.

Tough, no matter if you like it or not, passing a law to make people wear a PFD won’t fix or stop stupid!


And in no way do I want your dead ass washing up under my pier, because you didnt wear a life jacket and it took months for you to bubble up.

Nice touch!


but, let the coast guard, fire deparment, marine units not save you and you will bitch.

Well, how can they save me if I am already dead? And if I am dead, why would I even give a ****?


since fishermen in New York evidently are to stupid to take cold weather precautions, it is now a law. I guess to many of them fell over board relieving themselves in the winter and rasied the search and resuce costs. (by the way, relieving yourself over the side and falling in is a #1 problem on the water!)

And just where do you get your info? My bet it was not the rescue costs, it was filed by a complaint so as to help “save” every one else. :rolleyes:


Now I understand where you are coming from, your're in the deep south Louisiana , you think winter is 60 degrees and a few clouds, put your coat on!!!

Never been down here huh? I’ve run my fishing lines in a swirling high river… In the dead of winter where we’ll have mid 30s in the days and high 20s in the nights. Oh, and all by myself too. And I am not in deep south Louisiana.

You think you know what you are talking about, but reading your last statement, you don’t know jack ****!

Hell, people disobey “do not walk” signals. Maybe we should put in crossings similar to the RR tracks. Like opening up the gate for the sheeple! :rolleyes:

[Riverman]

so will it be ok when the government tells us boats can only have a maximim speed of 10 mph , and you can only boat in good weather , and be within a safe distance from shore ,while weaing a lifejacket and a wetsuit , and only after you pass a swmming test Naw I don't think so.

Boating, if you think about it, is not all that regulated. Personal responsibility will never be left out of the equation. Compare it with sport flying for example, flying is VERY regulated probably the most regulated sport there is. Yet who decides to take off in weather, the pilot. The pilot is expected to use his judgement - boaters always be expected to as well.

We will see sport aviation banned long before boating I'm sure. The fliers have a great lobby though, in the EAA.

[BoatGoFaster1]

Hell, people disobey “do not walk” signals. Maybe we should put in crossings similar to the RR tracks. Like opening up the gate for the sheeple! :rolleyes:

OK now we are getting somewhere. A life jacket law in cold weather small boats seems somewhat reasonable.

You seem like no law is reasonable.

However, you like railroad crossing gates. We have a starting point.

So, how far do you roll back the law? do we need that stupid yellow line on the road? how bout speed limits? Sidewalks, why not drive on them.

Where is your rollback point?

[Forkin' Crazy]

You must be a politician. Make more laws gives you job security.

We have enough laws. Enforce the ones we have.

[1meanstream]

Most bad government has grown out of too much government. - Thomas Jefferson

Small government gives you big freedoms—and big government leaves you with very little freedom. People have never learned to fight for their freedom, most are only good at enjoying it. Liberty and freedom are seldom lost all at once, but rather bit by bit.

I'd rather die a free man than a ward of the state. - ssent

THOMAS JEFFERSON "The more numerous the laws,the more corrupt the state. "

This is not tough stuff to understand unless its too late for you as your mind is now
incapacitated by government propaganda.

[ssent]

I'm going to put a new spin on this debate.

It is obvious that something has to be done. Things have gone from bad to worse — the loss of useable brain cells and increasing stupidity has put a strain on our species' ability to maintain a sustainable healthy level. Behaviour patterns that used to be be overlooked have now become the norm. Obviously, the situation is fast approaching a critical stage for our species. Unless some type of drastic action is taken in our near future, every dumbass will be saved from themselves by the government. More importantly, they will live on to breed, thus increasing the number of dimwits, halfwits, nitwits, and dipchits.

There are still people on Earth, who, in spite of the laws to protect them, actively try to kill themselves through stupidity. Each year the Darwin Awards chronicles these people who through their own idiocy have reached the zenith of stupidity. There is a clear indication that if the protective laws were removed, the human population would return to a natural balance of one idiot per village.

There is an age old message that has been a simple one: stupid people who do stupid things die horribly.

Why must we all suffer? The human species needs Natural Selection. The protection of stupidity needs to end now, before it'e too late. :cool:

[1meanstream]

Perfect

[Forkin' Crazy]

Why must we all suffer? The human species needs Natural Selection. The protection of stupidity needs to end now, before it'e too late. :cool:

Exactly!!! Survival of the fittest... and smartest! :)

Too bad some still haven't a clue how it works! :(

[Carlson150XS]

Another law is passed to take more of my freedom away.
I have driven with a safety belt on in my car since 1965 because I felt it was a good thing.
But if you don't want to wear a seat belt in your car it should be your decision.
This is just another example of our freedom to chose taken away from us-
The augment that it's easier for the rescue team to find someone in the water is a poor one when balanced against our loss of freedom to chose.

[1meanstream]

It took a while but this thread is getting easier to read after the last few posts. So easy to get so hard to explain.