Beginner High Perf Merc history

[4JawChuck]

I have been looking for information regarding Merc's and their HP designations and haven't had much luck except for this forum.

I see references to 2.0L, 2.4L, 2.5L Merc's and some are sold that way...but without a HP designation? I understand a 2.0L would put out less power than a 2.5L (obviously!) but if the motor HP changed from year to year but the block stayed the same then I would imagine only timing/carburation/fuel injection differences and porting would change etc.

The reason I ask is I want to invest in a HP outboard for my current and future boats that is easily rebuildable, the "fishing" motors I see for sale seem to be a rip off compared to the HP motors I see for sale on the forum. Being a hotrodder kind of guy I have tools and experience and mechanical knowledge to keep a HP motor in top shape from year to year...throwing a set of rings and freshening the motor every year is something I would do for the investment. I would be leaning toward a carburated style of induction only for simplicity.

As you can imagine unless you had a lot of time and experience with the history of these motors it would be very confusing.

I guess what I am asking...is there a chart somewhere that lists the different configurations of these various displacements engines and their HP designations?

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Chuck.

[Charger200]

2.4 High perf's are bridgeports, carb or efi
2.5's are merc 245(carb also refered to as fishing motors) 260, which is same as 245 except efi, 280 not sure on the difference between it and a 260 but i think the ROS motors have the charging systems and not the 16amp systems the others have, Then there are the drag motors.

Some 260's came with "bass mids" and some with "offshore mids" Some hade sportmasters lowers pre 01 i think are all small shaft"15 spline" after that they are "fat shaft", others came with cle lowers 2 and 4 hole low water pick ups. Cle cases being less superiour then sportys due to the shorter bullet compared to sportmasters. Most were 20'' mids others were 15" mids.

All 2.5's are VERY rebuildable and most due it every 100hrs or when compression and leakdown nmbers suggest, Parts are a plenty, however not super cheap.

Dont be affraid to use the search button it can be a very handy tool

Jay

[Charger200]

I dont know much but that should get ya started, Sure oe of the merc wizes with chime in

jay

[Charger200]

And now that i have finished reading your whole post, im goin to be parting ways with my carb motor in the spring, im sure we could work something out if you are interested:thumbsup:

jay

[4JawChuck]

Thanks Charger for the synopsis!

I might just take you up on that motor as spring is when I will have my boat finished being restored and repainted, it would be nice to have a motor option in Canada that doesn't need to be imported and the associated hassles...besides I travel up to Cold Lake on occasion and a trip to Calgary to pick up a motor would be icing on the cake.

Now I just have to search the forum for the explanations of the other terms you brought up CLE/Bass/offshore etc. although they seem to be self explanatory.:thumbsup:

Can anyone share info on the 2.0L's?

Thanks for the help.
Chuck

[Dave Strong]

And now that i have finished reading your whole post, im goin to be parting ways with my carb motor in the spring, im sure we could work something out if you are interested:thumbsup:

jay

What you planing Jay?
Dave

[Charger200]

Would love a 260, maybe even a 280, or drag or i duno efi something.

Would like to be able to not have to re-jett, and just tune the box a lil, and would love a charging system. Think a 280 wold be nice.

jay

[Dave Strong]

Would love a 260, maybe even a 280, or drag or i duno efi something.

Would like to be able to not have to re-jett, and just tune the box a lil, and would love a charging system. Think a 280 wold be nice.

jay
Bet a Sportmaster lower would work better than a CLE on your boat, or are changingthat as well?
Dave:eek:

[Charger200]

Im open to anything. I think that a sporty with a 280 would be a great combo with 2" more setback on this thing. Then she would be a real boat, with some capability.

I would love a RR or Euro, but each time im out in her i come back not wanting to get rid of it, and big power would change my thoughts of getting rid of it. Think a drag would be over kill.

Havent placed an add yet cause im in no hurry to get rid of it, and dont want to have it sitting up or sale all winter, me turning down offers, cause i cant bring myself to suffe through the cold of pulling it off the boat in the middle of march at -30.

If i had a 280 you wouldnt have to wait up for me:D That is if you ever get er back on the water:p

[Charger200]

Thanks Charger for the synopsis!

I might just take you up on that motor as spring is when I will have my boat finished being restored and repainted, it would be nice to have a motor option in Canada that doesn't need to be imported and the associated hassles...besides I travel up to Cold Lake on occasion and a trip to Calgary to pick up a motor would be icing on the cake.

Now I just have to search the forum for the explanations of the other terms you brought up CLE/Bass/offshore etc. although they seem to be self explanatory.:thumbsup:

Can anyone share info on the 2.0L's?

Thanks for the help.
Chuck

Sorry chuck i justsaw this.

Ther is ALOT of good info on this board, but alot of the time its hidden by the search button,

I was readin a thread about chargers today from about 5 yrs ago, didnt know till i searched and it had alot of good info.

Im in the same boat i dont really want to import from the states, and if you are interested in the spring pm me. Thats when i will be looking for new power also, and will be putting it up for sale around april.

What kind of boat do you got?

Dont know much about 2.0l's

jay

[4JawChuck]

Thanks Charger,

I lurk mostly because there is so much I don't know, I have been reading for the last year or so but haven't really found the information regarding the questions I asked in one spot for comparison...you have put a lot of perspective on what I have already learned.

Thanks!

As for my boat it is nothing special, its a 1988 Tuffy Sportsman 16' Walleye boat. Currently its running a plain jane 90HP Merc 2 stroke that nets me 45 mph @ 5700 with 6" jackplate/setback and a 13.5'X22P Laser II. I am planning on ripping it apart this winter as a project to convert to center console and hydraulic steering and re-do the interior as well as complete re-paint.

The boat is in good condition and doesn't need a transom and has no rot but I figured while I am going to redo the cosmetics and layout it would be a good time to reinforce the transom and rework the boat for some serious power...I am a speed freak from the get-go and I am not satisfied. The hull is a sponsoned modified vee so it should be fast for a fishin boat.

I used to work in the Aircraft industry so the composite restructuring and reinforcement is something I am capable of doing...all I need is some serious lightweight HP to strap to the back of her once I am done. I haven't been too impressed with the options available to me from the regular "fishing" market as far as weight goes so I am looking to the guys with the experience in the HP market for advice. Except for Riverman on the forum and a few others in the Province there isn't much in the way of HP boats here, the season is pretty short up north...I don't have to tell you that.:p

My 90HP Merc weighs 303 pds stock and for another 72pds heavier I can throw a 2.5 on there and skip the toy/engines from the dealer that redline at 5200 rpm. I used to race rotary Mazdas back in my youth so this should not be too much of a stretch for me mechanics wise.

I know its no speed boat but I do a lot of fishing for recreation and having the fastest Walleye boat in the Province is something I am willing to work for...even if it means I have to build it myself.;) I figure having the most HP out back is a good start towards that goal.

Once I get some understanding on what I need to fit the hull (My 20" lower is pretty high for the boat) and get the parts for the rigging and get her on some stands and ripped apart I can get started, money is not an issue...I have made plans and saved up for this.

Attached is a pic as she sits right now, but not for long;

[Riverman]

Is that boat a V hull or does it have a pad?

No pad = no go fast.

[4JawChuck]

Is that boat a V hull or does it have a pad?

No pad = no go fast.

Not looking to break 70 Mph Riverman, just looking to invest in a motor I can live with and enough power to move it the way I like.:smiletest:

Attached is a pic of the transom when I got the boat in 2007 with a (ugh) 50 Hp Yamaha so you can see the transom profile. Its not a pad speed boat and I am not interested in one at the moment, for the power it moves out better than any vee I have ever been in and at 45 mph the side sponsons are just touching the water. I imagine at 60 mph or higher the center vee will be the only thing in the water and the small side pads (about 2 1/4" wide) on either side of the center shallow vee will be holding her up.

The boat weighs 750 pds dry and empty probably close to 800 pds once I reinforce the transom, 200+ HP and a 25P+ Trophy Plus should get me in the ballpark to where I would be happy when water/wind conditions permit.

I'm done looking at 500pd+ "anchors" sold to the general fishing public to repower the boat, it time to step up and stop fooling around. I've been around race cars most of my life and one thing I have learned is that if you want more power you are better off buying it engineered for the stress off the shelf. A stock 2.5 Merc is probably the closest thing to that goal that I can still get parts for up here...hence my questions.

Besides you know your going to want to go for a ride! :D

[Charger200]

A nice 2.5 with some setback and a trophy would be a great setup on that boat, get ya outa the hole in a hurry, ride well with some weight. Your right on the anchor remark. If you are not goin to use your enginefor trolling and have a secondary motor then a 2.5 is a great engine, even a promax would be nice and keep the noise in the boat down a lil.(but me thinks noise aint a problem for ya:rolleyes:)

I would suggest putting some extra beef in the transom. The 75 extra lbs might not change anything just sittng there but the extra torque will make a difference to the transom.

jay

[4JawChuck]

Thanks Charger,

The upgrade from the 50Hp Yamaha to the 90 HP Merc was a worthwhile move...I just wish I wouldn't have been worrying about the hull rating at the time (The boat is rated for a 80HP), I thought the insurance company wouldn't insure the boat but after getting it all setup they just wanted a picture of the motor and couldn't care less about the hull rating. Guess I should have asked first DOH!

The current motor is actually labelled a 2003 - 75HP but it has been retimed and carbed for the 90HP rating. Should have bought a 150 at least and maybe I would have been satisfied for awhile.

So I said screw it, this thing is coming off and this time I don't want some Briggs & Stratton wannabe engine, I want something that comes on strong at 6000 not falls on its face at 5250. Guess I am spoiled compared to the average boater, I want some thing upgradeable and tunable with HP parts available from the aftermarket and something to toy with in the winter months when I tear it down for a re-ring. Besides the boys are getting older and I want to teach them about motors and nothing is better for teaching than an O/B standing up in your face.

I will PM you my e-mail address, don't wait too long to put that motor up for sale...I see you looking at the same motors as me in the buy and sell section. :thumbsup:

[Charger200]

they are good strong engines and easy to tinker with. Im in no rush to sell mine and prob wont put it up for sale untill the spring as i dont think im goin to want to take it off the boat in the middle of the winter.

jay

[150aintenuff]

even a 200 will be a night and day difference on it..... 47 with a 90 will be 65ish with an optimised setup on a 200

[4JawChuck]

Thanks guys,

I see different HP ratings for the same displacement 2.5L, is this mainly a block porting and carburation thing? I see the EFI's have higher ratings obviously but if I am going to do this I might as well get the highest rated motor for the displacement I can go.

Are the carb versions limited to 200HP stock? Do I have to go EFI to get the 260/280 HP version? Are the stock rpm limits the same across all the engines or do they vary according to porting and induction? Do the carbed versions need electric fuel pumps or do they have integral diaphram pumps that work off the crankcase pulses.

Obviously lots I don't know...:cool:

I'm kinda leaning toward a 260HP version as these seem more common and I can live with EFI as long as they are reliable...nothing worse than EFI boxes going bad. I am interested in stock not modified for now, I will have my hands full getting the boat rigged and ready for next season and I don't want to be fooling around with doing any more with the motor other than setting up an electric fuel pump and hanging it on the transom ready for prop testing/engine height setting next spring.

[150aintenuff]

there are several versions of the 2.5... from 115 up to 300. honestly if you can find it a 150 promax or a 225 promax is all that boat needs to do 65-70 which is also getting beyond the limmits of that particular hull design.... and really raises less eyebrows than a 260/280 would in that hull..

[150aintenuff]

the 150 promax seems to be one of the strongest for its rating and reliable engines ive seen in the promax family.. 225's are a close second. and dont forget that at 375 lbs it doesnt include the gearcase as it was an accessory, because they were orderable with 1 of 3 styles of case.. true running weight is around 390lbs

[4JawChuck]

Thanks,

I agree the boat is probably fast enough with a 150 but I want some serious push on this thing and if I am going through the trouble, hanging a 200 or better is not any more work.

The hull design would be the speed limiting factor for sure and as I mentioned I just want something that isn't running WOT all the time to do 60 mph with four people and their gear. Having big block power under your foot does not mean I have to use it, just want a fun boat with more power than I need so I can enjoy it.

I firmly believe in the axiom of walking with a big stick and if I am going to invest in power I might as well get something worthwhile and able to be moved to a different boat later if I feel like upgrading. I would be keeping the 90HP for selling later and I am sure it would make someone very happy set up that way.

I might just keep it once the mods are done, nothing on the market turns my crank and these kinds of boats just aren't very common anymore...everyone has gone shallow vee and went way heavy for a market of fisherman who want giant boats with huge stern widths.

Not for me, I like a light lean boat and we fish 4 out of this one easily...what more could you want?

[150aintenuff]

alot.... want it to do 100, fish 8, fly flat across 12footers... and be able to tow with a honda cvcc... guess ill keep dreamin... actually rigging wise there shouldnt be anything different interms of your 90 to an 2.5 up to a 225 pm a 245/260/280 require 2 in boat pumps but really isnt anything hard.. and honestly i would leave it a side console.. cc's take up alot of room when its all said and done brcause you can never truly get comfortable around them i take out alot of cc's and either make side consoles or tiller boats out of them because customers are ultimatly un happy with them

[150aintenuff]

if it were my boat id get a 225 pm... 40A charging system versus 16... plenty of power for the hull, OR a 280... because anything else wont run your electronocs efectivly for fishing with the draw load from the fuel pump and trim and ecm

[4JawChuck]

Your the second person who told me to leave it side console, I guess the main reason why I was thinking center console was for the PWC feeling when I drove alone. The wife agrees with you and now I need to rethink this since she's the boss.

When you say 225 Pm you mean ProMax like this right?

http://www.ridgemarine-paradise.com/graphics/ProMax225X.jpg

The 40 amp alternator is something I would appreciate.

[150aintenuff]

thats a 225X but yes.... the X is even better than the 225 PM the 225 is a laser injected system, the X has the optimax plenum on it and a 60A alternator


trust me a single side console is much more effieient in terms of lost space than a CC.. the single side console only looses 2ft X3ft of the boat.... a CC makes the entire width of the boat where the console is wasted space because you cant sit around it, makes moving forward or back really tough, and as for the ballance alone put your batteries opposite you on the left side in the rear.. trust on this. ALL of my open boat customers that had Center consoles either went to power hydraulic tiller steering OR moved the console forward and to the side... so if you have a rear ward side console LEAVE IT ALONE!!!

[4JawChuck]

I hear ya, when I rewired the boat I put both batteries under the splash well on the opposite side of the wheel behind the 15 gallon tank. This balances my weight nicely. I think I will just have a windshield fabbed up here in town, there is a place that made me smoked windshields for my jap bikes back when I was a punk kid and they do a good job.

With all the weight in the back I really didn't need any more setback to balance the boat...if anything at speed I am using positive trim to keep the nose from flying especially in the wind. I did it mainly to fine tune the motor height but I had a bad experience when a gust caught me rounding a corner on the river while I was alone and I went 45 degrees vertical at WOT...nearly crapped my pants. Thats as near to flipping as I ever want to go again so I am very careful with trim while I am alone. Once the air get under those sponsons there isn't much boat in the water...add a little chop and it feels like my buddys tunnel on the water and I have to pull back on the throttle to keep her under 6000 rpm.

Really appreciate the feedback and the help, I like the idea of a larger alternator and this motor fits right into the 400pd category if I read the specs right...my 90 weighs about 340 so all it needs is transom strength added for the power increase. I may just sell the manual jack...it doesn't need it (won't take anymore than 150Hp anyway) and the new motor will have enough power I can run the prop fully submerged and still have plenty of speed on tap.

Thanks again for everyones help!:smiletest:

[150aintenuff]

with hp comes speed and with speed you need engine height to eliminate handeling issues associated with engines being to low on the transom, spend the money for a 300 hp rated 6" setback.. trust me you will want it even with the new motor... because your new engine will need to be ran higher than your 90 currently is...


do not spend the coin to have big power only to kill its potential by setting the motor low.... thats counter productive...

[150aintenuff]

move 35 or so lbs 2 the nose to offset the added weight at the transom

[Charger200]

Yes you will want a hydrolic plate with the bigger engine, or you will forever be struggling with setup. You will forsure want the 40amp charging system like 150 said. But you can buy the alternator kit from simonz which just bolts right up.

A 245/260/280 either of those with a bass mid, unless you want the extra noise ideling with a offshore mid, and a cle lower which will save ya money over a sporty would be the best route. You wont be seeing high enough speeds to where the sporty will be an advantage, it will just be extra cost.

jay

[4JawChuck]

I was just looking at forward mounted fuel tanks in a larger capacity to offset the larger motor, there is a spot under the front deck that I can utilize once I move the stereo amp that resides there...better use of the space.

I don't want the noise of an offshore mid thats for sure and I understand the need for the jackplate, kinda wish I had bought a hydraulic unit to begin with since this manual jack is a pita but I got a good deal so I am sure I can get 75$ out of it used. Since I won't be moving the console I can spend the money on a decent jack and improve the boat there.

Not looking forward to what its going to cost me to ship a 400 pd motor from down south, hopefully I can find something here in Canada first but I have to do whatever is necessary I guess.

I will start a project journal and take pics once I procure a heated space, a couple buddy's used to rent a warehouse where they stored 4 race cars to work on in the winter, have to get back into contact with them and see if they are still doing it...nice to have company while I rip and tear and share tools with.

Kinda curious how it will run and what prop pitch ends up working best with this boat, kinda set on a Trophy since it seems to work with so many boats of this style and is easily available.

The search for a 225 PM begins...:cool:

[150aintenuff]

know where 2 are.... and as for lowers... just either get an XR6 4 side pick up stock lower or a standard lower and block off the top 4 holes... the cle has entirely to much skeg area and you dont need the LWP crescent style leading edge in your aplication.. not enough engine height to benifit from it...


im sure the person that has the 2 i know of would work on shipping with ya

[Charger200]

call Paul Kryskow at TopGun Marine. He is just north of Toronto . I've never delt with him but alot of the guys over at fastboatscanada. com have and ive heard alot of good things about him. Might have what your lookin for:thumbsup:

905-775-0862

jay<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[4JawChuck]

Thanks, will check TO for availability. Nothing on Craigslist ATM but didn't expect to find anything. The pricing in Canada is over the top anyway, I have shipped successfully from down south before and its not worth a $3K premium to buy locally.