duratec and gel coat question

[mrcrsr]

was thinking of shooting my allison in gel,but didn't want to deal w/ wet sanding the whole boat when it's done, what about the duratec additive, what are the downsides of it? how is the finish(out of the gun w/ no wet sanding) compared to, let's say awlgrip? i am shooting the boat in white(currently red)

[Jo Boone]

i would llike to know this as well... im thinking of spraying my boat but do not wish to spen all day wet sandin

[Scott in MN]

Sprayed an allison side a couple of months ago with gel/duratec......still had to wetsand/buff although it layed out smoother and I was able to use my Sata RP..
The mix calls for 50/50 gel/duratec and that thins out your hiding power so if you have a poor hiding color you are going to have to make sure you put enough coats on so the wetsand/buffing doesn't remove enough to show color thru.....
If you are brave you can lay out a couple of coats of gel without duratec to get the color to build and then switch to 50/50 while the first layers are wet.....don't wait too long or you could get an interesting reaction.
Been awhile since I've sprayed Awl-Grip but I would say the Awl-Grip lays out smoother.....

[Steve 1]

Here is the problem Gel coat is up too 38% Magic ingredient’s, Pigment ,Thix Agents and Dirt like Talc among the list of crap we pay extra for. Straight gel coat takes 12 mills minimum for coverage and the grinding process to make this crap is nowhere near paint adding Dura Tec creates converge issue and the solvent flashing off leads to the nice orange peel look same as the Patch Aids do and Dura Tec is somewhat softer Under the Barcol meter you are not going to avoid the sanding and buffing, Paint like Awl grip a different story 2 mills = covered however on a bottom that is on and off a trailer a couple times a week there is a wear issue, that said 2 mills VS 18 mills Gel coat. Now for Shine, Weathering Paint wins hands down. Personally on my stuff gel coat was never on the list the weight issue alone plus it does NOT flex.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Here is the problem Gel coat is up too 38% Magic ingredient’s, Pigment ,Thix Agents and Dirt like Talc among the list of crap we pay extra for. Straight gel coat takes 12 mills minimum for coverage and the grinding process to make this crap is nowhere near paint adding Dura Tec creates converge issue and the solvent flashing off leads to the nice orange peel look same as the Patch Aids do and Dura Tec is somewhat softer Under the Barcol meter you are not going to avoid the sanding and buffing, Paint like Awl grip a different story 2 mills = covered however on a bottom that is on and off a trailer a couple times a week there is a wear issue, that said 2 mills VS 18 mills Gel coat. Now for Shine, Weathering Paint wins hands down. Personally on my stuff gel coat was never on the list the weight issue alone plus it does NOT flex.I agree and anyone who thinks they can spray jell and have it turn out like paint and just wet sand and buff is crazy . I might be old school but jell coat is a lot more work then painting and like Steve said you can put some serious mill's on but use it to your advantage to cover in areas that might need some body work like low spots because when ever i have bluprinted a bottom and the coustomer wants it back in jell i spray the hell out of it because everything has to be blocked out ( sanded ) and dialed in and buffed out and that is a job .

[XstreamVking]

Dura-Tec additive=dissapointed painter. I used this stuff several times and could not get any where near the finish of regular gell thinned with styrene. I will avoid using it in the future. Like steve 1 said the hardness isn't the same. Use awlgrip or reg. high quality gell. This stuff is only suitable for crab boats...imo...Waste of money.......

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Dura-Tec additive=dissapointed painter. I used this stuff several times and could not get any where near the finish of regular gell thinned with styrene. I will avoid using it in the future. Like steve 1 said the hardness isn't the same. Use awlgrip or reg. high quality gell. This stuff is only suitable for crab boats...imo...Waste of money....... I guess here it is again ( old school ) why not thin it with acetone and use wax addtive so you can sand after everything is cured or spray gell thinning it with actone and spray P.V.A on top of the gell after the gell has been sprayed same thought different process and very old school .I really have to say that patch booster and all that other $hit is junk .I remember when we used jell at Skater & wax addtive was alway's used for every repair even if we were spraying the whole side of a 40 footer but over the year's that has changed very light jell in the mold to the point where you can see plow thru and all repairs are done in imron or awlgrip and after that who cares because most boats end up in the paint booth with custom graphics . WOW sorry i strayed away a bit .:smiletest:

[RobF]

ginger- them skaters were always a bit thin on the gel, makes repairing them in gel almost impossible- when you sand and polish your repair your bound to break through AROUND the repair, unless you can spray to hardlines somewhere.

I have also found a compatibility issue with duratec high gloss and some gelcoats, you will find it does not agree with some brands of gel, so if you are planning a large project buy and try a test batch first otherwise you could end up with a couple gallons of crapola. I also question the UV resistance of the high gloss additive.

You can get pretty much the same results spraying gel a little thinned out with acetone and spraying PVA over it, the PVA allows the gel to cure shiny and hard. Wax additive will make it cure semi or flat and I dont like sanding gel with TFA and I dont like the way the repair ages with TFA either.

Regardless you really do not want to thin your gel too much, the only time we MAY use the high gloss additive is on newer warranty or retail repairs on colored hull boats where we are trying to keep the costs down for the customer and use off the shelf gelcoat versus custom matching thier color.

As a rule I really try not to thin gelcoat with any additive more then 20-30%

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

ROB F - thin to win ha ha ha & like steve said in an early post and the same thought at Skater save weight which means SPEED !!! Its a Skater nation !!!!!!!!;) and i better not forget Cheetah cats , this ones for you Steve .

[RobF]

I read somewhere that Peter sprays all the gelcoat in the molds

[mrcrsr]

so back to the original question(everything is very informative though!), do i spray the boat in gel, awlgrip, or imron ? weight is a concern, but what about prep required beforehand? i know gel hides alot, whereas paint doesn't(as far as sanding scratches, etc). also i would have to use primer before shooting paint on the boat, gel you don't. trying to figure out what to do, thanks guys!!!! what is the easiest way to go that won't wear off, is cost effective, that isn't going to cause my arms to fall off from sanding!!!:p

[jphii]

Imron.

[XstreamVking]

The best all round fix is to have gell on the bottom of the hull. And use a imron or awlgrip on the hull sides and top deck.. I just used the new awlcraft 2000, and had really good results. This is on a boat that needs a complete re-do. Paint on the bottom just never seems to hold up like gell. If re doing a colored boat, red,blue etc use paint. Colored gell will fade quickly...Re- finished my V-King and used gell on the hull, imron on the topsides...Best way, not the quickest...

[RobF]

I find that gel sprayed outside of a mold does not hold up as well on the bottom. It tends to yellow a little easier and be blotchy when it does yellow.

Darker colors I guess you dont have that problem.

Plenty of 100+mph boats with painted bottoms hold up great, if you want to beach the boat alot then you may want gel for a little more durability, but I still would rather be repairing paint on a bottom then gel for future repairs.

[mrcrsr]

we do beach our boats, that was one of my concerns. what are the advantages of imron over awlgrip?

[XstreamVking]

Regular awlgrip- great paint overall toughest. imo Imron is really good, especially if you want metallics and clear cote. It can be polished. The newer awlcraft 2000 is a good paint to apply, can be buffed, and comes in metallics. The older awlgrip is not a buffable paint.If buffed, It takes away the outer surface and will fade and chalk over a short time.

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

Personally my paint of choice is Imron over Awlgrip but like X-streamViking said awlgrip is more durable although both paints are very good and hold up well . I have to say that if you can spray one you can spray the other because both paint's are very wet and if you are going to be beaching your boat frequently it should be a concern with any type of paint . I have to mention that over the years i think the most durable paint's are the ones that have the most poison's .;)

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

I read somewhere that Peter sprays all the gelcoat in the molds Rob yes he does and to see him at the shop and never meeting him before you would think he is just another employee because he dresses in the same work uniforms that everyone else does .

[mrcrsr]

if i use imron can i still use hi build epoxy primer under it(to block out the boat) and put imron directly over it?

[OFFSHORE GINGER]

if i use imron can i still use hi build epoxy primer under it(to block out the boat) and put imron directly over it?Yes you can and why not use Duratec's high build tooling primer and it comes in white . I have used it for years and whenever i blueprint a bottom Duratech is the primer to use for dialing in that bottom and to make those strakes razor sharp and might i mention that it has other uses when working with epoxy for the pure fact that if you want to spray jell on a repair that is epoxy Duratech is the primer to use because gell on raw epoxy will not cure because the epoxy give's off amines causing the jell to not cure properly or not at all .

[RobF]

just watch any high build primer on a large flat surface, the issue is the narrow spray pattern when spraying high builds. You can distort your surface from the build of primer.

Requires very carefull block sanding and at that point I would suggest a good finish primer so that you can really block the high build down with coarse paper to get it true.

[mrcrsr]

i know i really have to watch the pad on the allison, there is a lip back there that is critical to the correct ride/operation of the boat, this should be fun!!! i just don't want another red allison!! my paint shop suggested concept 2000(dupont), supposed to be similar to awlgrip, anyone ever use it?

[Scott in MN]

Concept 2000 is a PPG single stage acrylic urethane. We spray it occasionally at our shop and have it on our mixing bank.
It is fairly durable but not in the same league as Imron or Awl-Grip. It is more user friendly than the other two (drys quicker, less sticky overspray, less toxic, but still need respirator).

[mrcrsr]

is the awlgrip 2000 as durable as the older awlgrip?

[XstreamVking]

I just painted my first boat with the Awlgrip 2000. It seems to be a good paint to apply, and buffs out easily. Heard from a few painters that it held up good, but not as well as the orig. awlgrip... For a glamour finish, I would stick with Imron. Straight up solid color, might use the awl. 2000. Havent used the awlgrip 2000 metallics yet, but I bet there as good as the imron metallics.. Dura-tec is a suitable primer for anything. I have allways used epoxy on all my paint jobs... Awlgrip #545 is my go to primer.....

[mrcrsr]

the color i'm using is snow white, which would be more durable, imron or the awlgrip 2000? i don't have an airline respirator, so i'm leaning towards the awlgrip, also, who would have the best pricing?

[XstreamVking]

Awlcraft 2000 might be a little less than Imron. What ever you paint, use a good respirator with fresh filters!!! Any spray paint or gell is very deadly... Once you use an air supplied sys. you will never go back to reg. face masks. It is worth the bucks..Durability wise I have had no fade problems with my old Imron paint job's. It's a proven product, and the awlcraft is not yet proven.....

[mrcrsr]

can i use a regular epoxy primer underneath the awlgrip products?

[RobF]

what do you mean by regular epoxy primer?

If you are using awlgrip's high build it is suggested that you first spray 545 under it, then after spraying and sanding the highbuild spray 545 over it.

alexseal's high build you can topcoat right over it, but again the advantage of priming over high build is that you can use coarse paper, correct your surface, and prime again for a smoother finish.

[mrcrsr]

what do you mean by regular epoxy primer?

If you are using awlgrip's high build it is suggested that you first spray 545 under it, then after spraying and sanding the highbuild spray 545 over it.

alexseal's high build you can topcoat right over it, but again the advantage of priming over high build is that you can use coarse paper, correct your surface, and prime again for a smoother finish.
i just read that, weird that you can't use just one primer for the job, i usually block out the hi build, when i get close i go to 320 and then spray, more stuff to buy!

[nymack66]

Gel Coat with Imron NO WET SANDING on a 29 year old hull ! Everyone ignores the fact buffing compound has come a long way. This was buff using a 2000 grit compound
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc357/amackhrandilal/gelcoat%20with%20imron/DSCF0130.jpg

[mrcrsr]

i ended up going w/ dupont ms 600 snow white, easy to apply,my friends boat is painted in it, and the hull is holding up great(he beaches the boat), it can be waxed(unlike awlgrip) and has a great shine