filling in the concave on a vector do or no?

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

whats the pros and cons in filling in the pad, ive heard lots of stories, im thinking about doing it and just want to know if i should or not..

[transomstand]

You'll hear lots more now:D:D

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Too much opportunity to mess it up.

[1BadAction]

is it broken?

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

no its fine i just heard they accelerate faster, and get on the pad quicker with smaller motors like im running

[WATERWINGS]

I did mine, and didn't notice much difference, (no GPS then).

I have been told that they dont turn, (corner) as good with the pad filled.

I was partly trying to stop the bounceing......nothing fixed that.:eek:

[transomstand]

no its fine i just heard they accelerate faster, and get on the pad quicker with smaller motors like im running

The difference would be imperceptable, and the potential to ruin everything else is pretty high.

The inlines just didn't have it for acceleration, no comparison to a V-6:nonod:

You probably know the drill already, set it up to pull harder, and you give it away on top end:(

[Ronny Jetmore]

Per ron baker and pipkorn, it is best to fill in the wedge that turned into a hook. The concave was a bit of a gimmick and makes a bit of a pitter noise when flying. When filling in the hook, you fill in the concave at the same time.

I filled in the hook in my 2nd viper, per ron bakers exact instructions, and gained over 5 mph without changing anything else. Seriously. As far as turning, the vipers don't turn well anyway, without an additional change that pipkorn himself likes to do now on the outer most portion of the bottom. The viper and vector can't "get loose" with a hook.

If you want to know how to do it, call me.

Ronny jetmore

[WATERWINGS]

The concave was a bit of a gimmick and makes a bit of a pitter noise when flying.

When it is "flyin" there is no "pitter" to be heard......:D:thumbsup:

[Raceman]

Per ron baker and pipkorn, it is best to fill in the wedge that turned into a hook. The concave was a bit of a gimmick and makes a bit of a pitter noise when flying. When filling in the hook, you fill in the concave at the same time.

I filled in the hook in my 2nd viper, per ron bakers exact instructions, and gained over 5 mph without changing anything else. Seriously. As far as turning, the vipers don't turn well anyway, without an additional change that pipkorn himself likes to do now on the outer most portion of the bottom. The viper and vector can't "get loose" with a hook.

If you want to know how to do it, call me.

Ronny jetmore

I disagree.

I was very active with HydroStreams in the '70's (had multiples of my own as well as buying from Noah in PC Fla, and a 2 from a dealer in Ga that we resold here, also helped local Merc dealer get set up to buy them direct and quit bootleggin' em myself at that time) and Howard took the time to talk to me on the phone on several occassions. He explained the theory behind the hook in detail and also sent me an engineering type drawing of it. I've heard all this "Howard said" and "Ron said" stuff before, but it's always repeated by someone else. The hook ISN'T a gimmick or a mold mistake, and it does in fact add speed when the boat is set up properly. It also allows the boat to run flatter with the same amount of unwet bottom than a straight pad boat would require, and for that reason punches a smaller hole through the air than a bow high boat unwetting the same amount of bottom. I've seen MANY Vectors ruined because the backyard engineers knew more about them than the people who designed them.

Again, claiming a 3/4" wedge on the back of the boat that continued for YEARS AND YEARS of production is an accident resulting from a bad mold and/or gimmick advertising just doesn't hold water.

As far as the "not getting loose" part without "current changes", I've got pictures somewhere of my comp Vector from the late '70's with a 2.4 that I cut down from a 20" motor (I believe the first cut down in the world, done in 1976 on a 2 liter 1750 housing) and the boat appears to be almost totally off the water with just a few inches of the pad still in contact. For those who understand how the hook works, it's much like a reverse spoiler that provides lift at the rear. For the record, Allison started manually building smaller hooks on the bottom of their boats sometime back then, by adding them on the raceboats, and some or all of the more modern ones have a slight ENGINEERED hook in the pad now.;)

Incidentally, Wayne Weeks' boat, Southern Comfort, arguably the fastest officially documented speed Vector of all time and unbeatable in the unlimited V bottom wars in the late 70's and early 80's ran the hook. Wayne and his father Wilbur, a fast boat genius himself had a LOT of contact with Howard P. back in the day and they didn't set NEW world records every time they tried by accident.;)

[Ronny Jetmore]

i talk to howard and baker regularly. i bought ron's viking last year from him. we had dinner, talked boats, hooks, wedges and the stuff.

think what you want, but it is a mistake that happened as it cured. for years, bakers phone number was right on mark caspers hydrostream site and you could call him yourself.

whatever dude.

rj

[Raceman]

i talk to howard and baker regularly. i bought ron's viking last year from him. we had dinner, talked boats, hooks, wedges and the stuff.

think what you want, but it is a mistake that happened as it cured. for years, bakers phone number was right on mark caspers hydrostream site and you could call him yourself.

whatever dude.

rj

It's a funny thing about 'Stream bottom design.............. some of the people who are THE MOST outspoken on it have never rolled one over and worked the bottom, or at least have never done a controlled comparison, all other things being equal between hooked and unhooked.

I guess the debate will continue, but I'll say without question from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, rather than what somebody who told somebody, who told somebody, which is usually the factoid source of many of the conflicting opinions............... that if you do your BEST hook straightenin' job on a Vector bottom and there's another one that's simply blueprinted from the original design using common standard bottom blueprinting techniques, with SAME V6 power and SAME weight, the hooked Vector will be faster every single time. The engineering principle is there, the common sense principle is there, and the historical proof of it is there.;)

[Ronny Jetmore]

Not sure if you are supposing i have not done a fill-in on the pad, but i have.

Once again, go to the hydrostream.org site, and you will see, the first year or so of viper and vector "hooks" were not hooks, but rather, wedges. As the mold cured, and changed shape, the wedge turned into a hook. Anybody with an early viper i can attest to it being a wedge, and not a hook. Ron baker himself has corrected a lot of viper and vector hooks, filling them in. Jeff or sam baker will tell you the same.

Done arguing with you. Anybody that does the research, or better yet, fills in the pad, will see how much faster the boat is from the hooked pad. Like i said, mine is over 5 mph faster since i did it, with no other changes.

Done.

Rj

[Capt.Insane-o]

He has a 73 vector, there is no hook or wedge or whatever you want to call it. It just has the concave. If you widen it a bit the boat will run a bit better with smaller motors, filling in the concave has very little effect.

If you run an older set ultimately for top end with a v-6 there it's a bit of a different story, but I had a couple I bought that were "straightened out" and they ran like ****. My old grey 78 runs 104/105, it's not done there but I am with an untouched bottom.

[rock]

My Vector had a huge hook. I took out about 1/2 to 2/3 of it and filled the concave. Also widened it 1/2" each side to be more like the V-King. I had a slightly warmed up 2.5 and it would run mid 90's. I did like the feel of the new bottom better than that of the original bottom. I have seen a bunch of these things over the years and the degree of hook seems to vary considerably. Also the condition of the core and pad is going to have an effect on the outcome of any modification. I truly believe this is why you get so many different opinions of the best way to go. Some need the help whereas others cannot benefit as much. Either way the Streams are as much fun to drive as anything.
Rock

[Bruster]

First things first.....

There's a LOT of work that needs to be done with this boat (propellers, setback, testing, low water pickup, engine height, testing, steering, balance, testing, etc) to get it properly set up before anyone should be thinking about taking the motor off and turning the boat upside down. First things first.





.... the backyard engineers knew more about them than the people who designed them.

;)

[Riverman]

Mine is a stock blueprinted 73 (no wedge) with the concave. So far I've got it to 79.0 with a V4 crossflow.

[Raceman]

Seems like the terms hook and wedge are getting used to describe the same bottom by the same people, so maybe we have term confusion here.

In my mind, anything that forms a concave on the bottom of a boat or a pad is a hook. If you're saying you took a hook out from somewhere and left a wedge in the pad, then maybe, BUT if you're thinking that turning a pad from "wedged" to dead straight on a Vector will put speed on it, then the guys with the "wedged" pads are gonna' wave as they go by.

As a side note, the last time this debate raged, the person who was the most passionate in calling me F.O.S. on my statement that the hooked (or wedged) pad was faster and less flighty than a straightened pad finally ADMITTED that he'd NEVER owned, driven, or even ridden in a 100 MPH Vector, and my supposed incorrect opinions were based on what SOMEBODY ELSE said.

I'm saying it again, I've owned both (counting the trade in that somebody ruined the bottom on by straightening, tried to glass the wedge back on and then gave up and bought a new replacement) and the blueprinted "wedged" pad Vector is ALWAYS measurably faster than one that has had the pad modified to dead straight. My 80's decked over Comp Vector with a mod'd 2.4 on a cutdown mid with a Speedmaster would run around 110.................. NOT fast enough to get within sight of Weeks, but still pretty damn fast for around 1980.

Back to the original topic here, I don't have a strong prejudice on filling the concave itself, or leaving it as is, because I never did one, or ran one that was filled. If I was going to guess right before a CONTROLLED comparative test was done, I would guess the concave could be MINUTELY faster on a really fast boat, neutral on an 80's boat, and maybe even slightly slower on a 60 to 70 MPH boat, but that's just a guess, and I would think the differences would be bordering on undetectable.

[BUZZIN' DOZEN]

I filled the concave pad on mine, zero difference

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

:iagree:, my boat has no hook as it is sits, its a 73, i checked today bfore i went to the lake with my new 26 chopper, the pad has no hook whatsoever, all i was asking is if ther eis a performance differance if i fill in the CONCAVE!! with that being said forget about the hook, i dont have a hook so lets not talk about a hook anymore on this thread...
oh by the way i ran 65 today and the boat started taking a left hand hook, i think i need to jack the motor up... thanks and good night, i have bush lite to drink...:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

[transomstand]

oh by the way i ran 65 today and the boat started taking a left hand hook, i think i need to jack the motor up...

Yup, I'd say your about 2 1/2" from 70:D

[1meanstream]

Leave the wedge --drive the boat--it will make you happy---spend your time on set up.

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

dude im sure it would have ran 70 today if i would have had a hotfoot, one hand on the wheel wasnt cuttin it... never even got wide open... but transomstand you seem to know everything, im new to vee's dont be a cocky fu*!er..

[Sonik]

dude im sure it would have ran 70 today if i would have had a hotfoot, one hand on the wheel wasnt cuttin it... never even got wide open... but transomstand you seem to know everything, im new to vee's dont be a cocky fu*!er..

Not that I feel the need to come to Petes defense by any stretch, but for someone who asks an awful lot of the members of this board, you sure seem to fail to recognize knowledge mixed with a little dry humor. It might be in your best interests to forego the mud slinging. Just my .02...

Jeff

[Quinten]

Not that I feel the need to come to Petes defense by any stretch, but for someone who asks an awful lot of the members of this board, you sure seem to fail to recognize knowledge mixed with a little dry humor. It might be in your best interests to forego the mud slinging. Just my .02...

Jeff
:iagree: this smiley :D is polite, no?

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

i dont ask alot, i dont think, but isnt that what this board is all about? ive never owned a vector, i have people telling me in one ear do this an d another telling me to do that, WHERE DO I TURN TO?!!!,SCREAMANDFLY!!! chilll had a couple questions, are you a pro probly not. i look up to people like raceman and laker and jeff g that have owned all this old sh^t, and if the other so called pro's have a problem with that then bite me!! i own a vector i want the most out of it that i can with a 115, 70 MPH, i know its capable and im close i just need some seat time i guess...and thats not even what this thread is about it was about the concave, IM LEAVING IT!!! lets drop this thread and all be friendly hi perf boaters...:cheers::cheers: i dont have a prob with anyone on here, just asking questions about a boat ive never owned is all

[Sonik]

i dont ask alot, i dont think, but isnt that what this board is all about? ive never owned a vector, i have people telling me in one ear do this an d another telling me to do that, WHERE DO I TURN TO?!!!,SCREAMANDFLY!!! chilll had a couple questions, are you a pro probly not. i look up to people like raceman and laker and jeff g that have owned all this old sh^t, and if the other so called pro's have a problem with that then bite me!! i own a vector i want the most out of it that i can with a 115, 70 MPH, i know its capable and im close i just need some seat time i guess...and thats not even what this thread is about it was about the concave, IM LEAVING IT!!! lets drop this thread and all be friendly hi perf boaters...:cheers::cheers: i dont have a prob with anyone on here, just asking questions about a boat ive never owned is all

My friend, I am not a pro, and will tell you as such, nor am I a self-proclaimed anything. I stay within my knowledgebase and don't attempt to "help" anyone with anything other than tried and true testing and proof with what I know to be fact or common practice....not speculation. Something you need to keep in mind...you know what they say about opinions...I need not go further. I came here with a quest for knowledge the same as you..but the sooner you realize that you'll rarely get a single solution to a problem or question, the better off you'll be. Read it, absorb it, weigh your options and come to your own conclusions based on what you've read..and act on it. I have no problems with your approaches here for advice, but the name calling just struck me wrong.

I will say that I have a viper with both the concave pad and the hook and I have absolutely no intentions of altering it in any way and mine will end up being an 80ish mph boat with a 2.0 liter. If one can be run above 100 consistently and safely (within reason), I see no reason to change it for what I would consider a minimal gain. Application of some of what you read here will get you close to a solid setup. the rest will simply be trial and error to solidify what works for you and your boat.

Jeff

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

:cheers: everyone slam a beer on what sonik said, i just did... really though my boat is a 73, it dont have a hook or a wedge, i was just wondering if it would accellerate faster with the concave fiiled... my question got answered today when i took it out with a 26 and it was a rocket by inline standards mind you... so i am am going to leave the concave and just lighten the rest of the boat this winter.. like i said, it did 65mph and i had to let out cuz i could not hold it with one arm.... now i now what i need, i think thank you and lets have a beer:cheers::cheers:

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

sonik, you ever make it to northern minnesota? lets go boating sometime, running out of people up here with performance boats.. give me a call somtime, 218-428-7180 if your coming to minnesota with your rig

[Riverman]

MJ, you keep working on the setup. It's the easiest way to improve your performance and speed and it's also the cheapest. You could gain 5 or more mph on setup alone.

[mrconcrete]

I must agree with raceman..If you have the power to run up over 100mph in a VECTOR you most certainly will want the nose down...and that requires a "wedge" or "hook" in the pad.

Granted..there is more than one way to skin a cat..but that is the way I am doing it.

[transomstand]

i look up to people like raceman and laker and jeff g that have owned all this old sh^t,

Uhhhh, Laker was 6 years old when I bought my Ventura:D:p

[baja200merk]

I drove mickey's ultra light comp vector/2.4 200 over 92mph (faster then the owner, cough cough :D ) with a stock bottom after about 1/4 mile of being in the boat it was almost effortless to run over 90 on the pad for miles! I started feeling bad for that old 2.4 turnin the lil 28 chopper 7k+ for that long :eek: awesome boat though, probably the most fun ive had behind the wheel of a vbottom! I did not want to get back in my mirage ever again!

bottom line, leave the damn pad alone!

Kevin :thumbsup:

[Raceman]

I drove mickey's ultra light comp vector/2.4 200 over 92mph (faster then the owner, cough cough :D ) ........................awesome boat though, probably the most fun ive had behind the wheel of a vbottom! I did not want to get back in my mirage ever again!

bottom line, leave the damn pad alone!

Kevin :thumbsup:

Hmmmm, I wonder what ever became of that ultra light, super fast comp Vector with the stock pad that Mickey usta' own.:confused:

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

for the 100th time, i decided not to fill the pad, and mine does not have a hook or a wdge, ITS A 73!!

[transomstand]

for the 100th time, i decided not to fill the pad, and mine does not have a hook or a wdge, ITS A 73!!

First of all, I only counted 87 times, so don't exagerate, because that will get somebody else started about your "numbers".

Second, that's just kinda how it works around here, we just don't know when to shut up. This thread might still be going after you've sold the boat:D:D:D (Green smiley things indicate humor:D)

[MJ POWERSPORTZ]

i understand, anyways im working on the boat today, need to modifly my jackplate and such... thanks for all the info guys...

[baja200merk]

Hmmmm, I wonder what ever became of that ultra light, super fast comp Vector with the stock pad that Mickey usta' own.:confused:

you need to put a real motor on it and come to RR and let me drive it again:thumbsup:

from what im hearing you better lock that thing up and watch out after dark for that tall white boy that sold it to you :eek:

sweet ride, i shoulda bought it....

[bearclaw]

...
and maybe even slightly slower on a 60 to 70 MPH boat, but that's just a guess, and I would think the differences would be bordering on undetectable.

Yes, I can attest to that one. Had a buddy who bought a '75 Viper new and rigged it with an 850XS. Picked up a 3-blade over-the-hub round-eared prop from an OPC guy (looked like the predecessor to a Chopper?) and the thing was a really fun 63-65 mph boat. In '77 he decided to have the pad filled in and straightened (this same buzz was going on back then :)). The boat lost a tick on top end, but worse, it became a handling disaster. He sold it soon afterward. :(
Don't mess with success.