Mercury 800 BP

[LJL]

I've been reading some old boating magazines from the late 70's. There's a guy who dominated his class with an old Mercury 800 BP, when the others running 850 XSs. Was such an engine as 800 Bp ever produced or is it just a normal 800 with a BP gearcase? Tried to search the site, but couldn't find any reference to 800 BP. Thanks!

LJL

[crazy horse]

Never heard of a 800BP. They made a 850xs,It was just a 85hp short shaft with low water inlets on the case.

[LJL]

crazy horse,

I know what the 850 XS was, but this wasn't one. This so called 800 BP was supposed to be from the early 70's. The guy was racing this engine against others, who had 850XSs, and beating them time after time. With the information i have, I'm beginning to think the 800 BP was just an ordinary 800 fishing motor with a BP gearcase.

Anyone know of early 70's "hiperf" Mercury engines this size with shiftable gearcase? Like Johnson Stinger was for SE or Merc 850XS.. Had Mercury a predecessor for 850 XS?

LJL

[crazy horse]

Merc made the 66.6-cid 800 4cly. in the years 1969-1972 it would have the same bolt pattern as the inline six center sections so all that he would have to do is bolt on the hardware, I think. Merc never made one out of the box as far as I know. My old master service manual only shows the inline six BP engines in 68 and 69 which were the 1250 and the 1000. Hope this helps.

[Raceman]

Like Crazy said, the only BP's were 6 cyls and there were 4 models: 1000 BP & 1250 BP (both crossflows) and 1000 Super BP & 1250 Super BP (both direct charges) Like he said, the early 4 cyl engine with the pre 73 bolt pattern would bolt on, but it takes the mid and the lower to run the BP lower. There's no way to adapt a BP lower to a std mid, although it will bolt up to the Twister, Twister 1 and Twister 2 mids. (the T2 has the newer powerhead bolt pattern at the top though)

The BP lower is a Speedmaster looking housing, but with a propshaft of the same size as the std. production gearcase and full gearcase. It was weak and troublesome and quickly made obsolete with the regular non shiftable Speedmasters.

[Mark75H]

LJL I'd like to see a scan or copy of the article you are refering to; I don't recall such a combination of parts being legal under APBA rules.

Actually, "R" class rules may have allowed this, but it wasn't commonly done. If one guy did it legally, I'd be surprized others didn't copy the idea right away.

OPC "sportsman" classes were originally simple:

R=Restricted
S=Single engine
T=Twin engine
U=Unlimited displacement
X=eXperimental

[TRADER]

I have been lurking around this site for some time now, so will finally get my cherry popped with this post. The 800BP power head spec's are the same as the service motor. Compare timing spec's to the 1150 theru 1350. enjoy...trader

[Raceman]

Interesting, but there were NO 1350 BP's either.

[Mark75H]

I recognize that document. It is the spec sheet submitted to NOA; this one is for 1970.

Here is what was submitted back in 1968; look closely it will make your head spin, but most of the motors were not produced, merely proposed. ;)

[Mark75H]

-

[Mark75H]

Check out the gear ratio (line 2) and lower unit width (section 6, dimension "R")

[Mark75H]

The specs don't mean anything if you don't have the key to the letters showing what each number refers to.

A= crankcase split to top of transfer port

A1= crankcase split to bottom of transfer port

C= crankcase split to top of exhaust port

C1= crankcase split to bottom of exhaust port

E= crankcase split to piston crown at bottom of stroke

E-E= crankshaft center to piston crown at bottom of stroke

F= piston skirt to crown

G= bore

H= reed stop height

J=stroke

K= crankshaft center to case split

L= connecting rod center to center length

N= intake deminsion (number of reed valve holes and size)

Q= overall length of lower unit, tip of bullet to end of shaft maximum

R= lower unit width

S= driveshaft housing above bullet at narrowest spot

T= driveshaft housing just above bullet (gear bulge area)

U= propshaft centerline to "T" measurement

V= lower unit length (powerhead mounting surface to propshaft centerline)

W= propshaft centerline to cavitation plate

X= driveshaft centerline to front of housing ahead of driveshaft

Y= driveshaft centerline to front of housing where nosecone mounts

Z= driveshaft centerline to front tip of nosecone or nosecone bolt

Ra= radius from bullet to driveshaft housing (as in CLE)



You might want to save this key and the image key, they are the standards used from
the 1920's to present. If you are in earshot of some super race techies (inspectors,
engineers, etc) they may use these names to describe the dimensions, particularly
R and Q. When you are looking at a spec sheet that you are not familiar with you can
usually quickly determine if you are looking at a race motor by jumping to the R dimension,
which will show you a fat 4 inch gearshift lower unit or a thin ~2 inch racing lower unit without
fishing through much else.

[TRADER]

Thanks for the post Sam. I recieved my (Motor Specification) copy from Phil McDaniels, as a request for info comparing the early Merc 650 to the Merc 1000BP. A lot of questions answered with your spec's. I found it difficult to understand how the Bp1000 and Bp1250 could share the same components with the exception of the crank, and all the other figures be equal +or- a few thou. :confused: Doing the math with the info I recieved from Phil, I came up with a Deck Height (J+E) of 6.841 for the 1250BP...of 6.581 for the 1000BP...of 5.995 for the Merc 650. To figure out the Pin Height for the respective pistons, I came up with a formula: Pin Height = (J+E)-(L)-(1/2J). I came up with a P.H. of 1.498 for the 1250BP...of 1.368 for the 1000BP...of 1.125 for the Merc 650. I measured the distance from the parting line of the block/crancase, to the water jacket cover on both my 1000 and 650, and they were identical. Do not have a 1250, but realize the distance should be at least + .250...

Now that you posted your Motor Specifications it all becomes clear.:eek: There are no similarities between your copy and mine, when it concerns the 1000BP! However, side by side comparison of the 650BP and 1000BP, (on your copy) confirms what I wanted to know in the first place.

What is your take on the differences between the two copies. I am concerned about some of the information that is available, even being reliable, as this has shown. Another plus, for reading the post here, as it all gets hashed out, you end up with the facts, JUST THE FACT'S MAM'...thanks...trader

[Mark75H]

What is your take on the differences between the two copies.

Quite simple, these are not the same motors.

My chart is from 1968 showing the original Merc BP's, your chart is from 1970 showing the "Super BP" versions.


Trader are you thinking the samething Phil is about the 65 in Formula E ?

[T2x]

Sam:

Since those spec sheets seemed to be hand written in part, who do you think "submitted" them.......Dick Schneider?

T2x

[Mark75H]

Probably somebody different each year. These may have been submitted by Dick Schneider or Dick Lampheer, or both of them.

The Chrysler stuff has clues that look like Bob Kies' prints, the OMC stuff might Iggry's, it sorta looks like FTI on the "by" block;

but my resident graphics expert says these pages are typeset, with a few corrections by hand (carb model additions, for one).

[TRADER]

Sam, So what you are saying is that on the 1000 Super BP, Mercury either went with a different Piston (P.H.) or (Direct Charge?) or added material to the combustion chamber to utilize the 1250 block, and therefore arrive at a 22cc combustion chamber? I suppose this would explain the "N" differences. Was it proposed only, or did it materialize?

On the FORMULA - E question. My friend Albert asked me to see what is being developed there.

As a side-note, I noticed that in the APBA rulebook, Formula - E, it mentioned that it was not permissible to have a removeable cylinder head on the 60cu.in. six, but no mention was made concerning the fours. ???

Phil asked if I had align-boring capabilities at my shop, which I affirmed, but he never elaborated past that. On Charlie's site he was real anxious to get the "information" out, but in reality, it never materialized, at least not to me... Concerning the Lon Stevens 650, on Charlie's site, any knowledge on it's developement/fact's/racing history, short coming's? If you would prefer to respond to some of this off the board, I would welcome that. Or if you think it would make for good discussion as a new topic on this site?

My background/knowledge/skills revolves around land base race engines, but I do not feel that this stuff is out of my grasp. I have no preconceived ideas as to what works or doesn't work, concerning outboard race engines, so any qualified input here is always welcome...thanks...trader

[Raceman]

The 1000 BP and 1250 BP were both crossflow engines. The 1000 Super BP and 1250 Super BP were both direct charge.

[Dave S]

:confused: I thought all 125 BP's were direct charge and all 1000 BP's were cross flows. Then I thought 135 BP's or Super BP's were direct charge, but like a Twister II on the transfer port cover. When did they start using the T2 style transfer cover? Way back when, my buddy who was building up a collection for his 6 cylinder Looper bought a Merc 700 with a Speedmaster, which was supposed to have held records in the class that 850XS would have ran. They were both 66 cid. Maybe that is the Merc 800 BP mentioned in this thread? :confused:

[Mark75H]

You read the rulebook correctly. In FE 44's are an open motor, almost anything is allowed. I don't know of any removable head 6 cylinder Mercs, but maybe Parker or Levandusky made some. There is no advantage in a removable head when the rules allow us to weld in pads and use any pistons we want.

Phil is looking into running a 4 cylinder 62 ci Merc, but the drawback is the low compression from the factory. Align-boring is the final step after milling the back half of the crankcase split to move the piston closer to the head to raise the compression. Phil forgot to ask you if you could do the size of the bearing journals...about 3".... I've found this out of the range of machines made for cars....big truck engine shops maybe.

Albert? As in Albert Snell? Say hello to John for me. I've been meaning to call him and tease him about me cleaning out our mutual buddy in Melissa.

I think the LS header/filler block came from a 6. Here's a clue: It's no longer being raced, it's in Charlie's shop as display.

Raceman has set you right on the different motors. Yes, the 1000's were made and raced. Mostly in Europe where the 99ci motors were not allowed in racing. The top class was 1500cc's; this was the reason for making both 89 and 99ci racing motors. A few 89 ci 1000 BP's were used in the US, mostly for setting speed records in the "I" class.


Dave, a 700 with a Speedmaster would not run in the same class with a gearshift 850XS.

The fellow who started this thread has thrown you guys a curve, he's from Norway, where the rules were much different.

I have really been hoping for comments on the 650BP, 500 BP and 49ci 4 cylinder Mercs. Did everyone miss them?

[gemini]

I wonder if Dick Snyder changed his name recently? I bet he's still a good handball player.

[Laker]

Ahh Sam
Nice to see you have them!
At one time those papers were Seriously restricted and all that had them were sworn to pledge their first bourn son! Very nice! When is your book being published?

[Mark75H]

Restricted? You must be kidding! These spec sheets are part of each year's NOA rulebook, every NOA member had them. Most didn't even care because they raced in the smaller modified classes known in NOA speak as "Am-Pro".

[Raceman]

"I thought all 125 BP's were direct charge and all 1000 BP's were cross flows. Then I thought 135 BP's or Super BP's were direct charge, but like a Twister II on the transfer port cover. When did they start using the T2 style transfer cover? Way back when, my buddy who was building up a collection for his 6 cylinder Looper bought a Merc 700 with a Speedmaster, which was supposed to have held records in the class that 850XS would have ran. They were both 66 cid. Maybe that is the Merc 800 BP mentioned in this thread?"


The first BP's (non Supers) were basically blueprinted production 1250 and 1000 fishing motors on racing mid/gearcase assemblies. That's where the BP designation is confusing to some people. It stood for "Blueprinted" then and stands for "Bridgeport" now. The 1250 Super BP was basically the predecessor to the 70/71 1150/1350 powerhead, which were Merc's first production direct charge engines. The 1150/1350's were the first production engines to use the new style transfer port covers. I'm almost sure the 1250 Super BP used them also, but I'd have to look at mine tomorrow to state it with ABSOLUTE certainty. One thing that I do remember for sure is that the Super BP uses bolt on type starter hardware as opposed to the cast in the block mounts like all the other direct charge blocks used. Like Sam said, no 700 with a Speedmaster, either in an old 6 cyl or a later 700X would've been legal in a class that the 850XS was legal in. Mercury never built a 1350 BP. By the time the 1150/1350 was out, the first Twister with red stripes was the race version, making the old BP's obsolete. The BP engine line consisted of only 4 engines.........the two 1000's and the 2 1250's.

[Mark75H]

But, Raceman, here is what we don't know for certain: Were the 1970 1350 decaled stackers with BP mids factory produced (other than those for the factory team) or was each one assembled from parts? I agree there are no 1350 BP decals and no print information on the transition motor.

There is a gap between the 1969 1250 Super BP and the first Twisters run very late in 1970.

[Raceman]

Sam, I've never seen a 1350 with a BP mid that someone said was original. I'm not saying that it didn't happen. What I have seen is several 1350's with stacker kits, the production type short mid, and Super Speedmasters (SSM's) I don't know the exact origin of them either, but I have 3 in that configuration, including the pair on my Kitson. I've been trying intermittently to contact the previous owner who bought it new, but thus far haven't made connections. They could very well be just short 1350's with stack kits and SSM's added and that'd be my guess probably, but right now it's a mystery.

Wally's always said absolutely no 1350BP's, and all that stuff was long gone by the time I started going to backyards in 74 and nationals in 75, so my information is second hand.