Linders 21' Challenger,21' SuperBoat,21'Apache etc..

[fastdonzi.]

I am trying to figure out the differences/changes to the hull/deck among the builders who have built this boat and which builders version is the best, and which ones not to get (if there is one) Thanks....

[Fast Shafts]

The most important design came from Linder, the 21 Challenger. It is argueably the most stolen (splashed) boat, the other being 24' Magnum. When the Challenger molds were sold, one went to Superboat, the other went to Shadow. In the mean time, many others stole (splashed) George's work, making minor changes-so these boat builders could claim it as their "own design". Imagine if Linder were to receive a royalty for every boat stollen. I'm sure others will pipe in-but I'd stick with one of the original Challengers, Shadows or Superboats who aquired the molds "ethically".:smiletest:

[fast fun 2]

:iagree::iagree::iagree: although the Apache is cool just becasue its an Apache :D

[T2x]

This topic is becoming circular....But!..... The only boats that George was directly involved with in terms of construction were the Challengers and Shadows. Later he did consult with Bob Hammond on the Hammond Challenger but that hull wound up being quite different and unique in its own way. The Superboat molds were a spare set purchased at auction without any further involvement from George, and the construction techniques on those boats was very different as they were targeted at a much lower price point. A case can be made that some of the ultralight copies are a bit faster in flat water but this is like comparing a potato chip to a gold coin. We could have built ultralight kilo boats had we chose to, but that would have defeated the purpose which was to produce the highest quality premium sport boat available at that time. We were after the Cigarette market ....not the Bayliner buyer. The Challenger/Shadows were designed for medium to rough water conditions and to take those conditions with a level, predictable and smooth ride. The Challenger/Shadows have full balsa /monococque construction and there is a noticeable difference in rough water handling and solidity betyween them and all the other versions as a result. The hardware on most other versions was no where near the Challenger/Shadow standard as there was no custom stainless or teak and the seat construction was considerably different. The Shadows and Challenger had heavy duty custom seat pedestals that allowed 360 degree rotation with a locking mechanism. In short it cost a LOT more money and consumed a LOT more labor to build a Challenger or Shadow than any of the others. We also had premier space in the top boat shows in the U.S. and Canada and a national advertizing presence, without which the copies would have, no doubt, had a smaller market.

Of the two "original" Linder 21' hulls the Shadow was faster due to bottom and deck modifications and the evolution of materials in the years between the introduction of the Challenger (1976) and the Shadow (1980).

George and I left Shadow in early 1983 and anything built after that also was not under our supervision so beware of "late model" Shadows as well.

I know there is a lot of loyalty to "other" versions, but the simple facts are.... still...... the simple facts.

T2x

[Kartracer]

That T2x for the great info as usual.

Now the Apache, how did that come about? I didn't think that was a splash or copy of the Challenger.

[T2x]

That T2x for the great info as usual.

Now the Apache, how did that come about? I didn't think that was a splash or copy of the Challenger.


I think there were two small Apaches a 21 and a 22...one of which was admittedly a Challenger copy according to Bobby Saccenti. He showed it to both George and I at various times and acknowledged the source. I believe George said it was okay to go ahead. We worked with Bobby on a few projects during that time period, most notably the "El Boss" Shadow Cat and some plans for a Conquest/Apache Cat that were, unfortunately, terminated when Ben went to "Camp".

Bobby remains a close friend to this day.

T2x

[euro scott]

T2, do you remember How much did the 21 shadows weigh ?

[T2x]

T2, do you remember How much did the 21 shadows weigh ?

About 1300 lbs in the OB version. The I/O's were about 100 lbs heavier.

[fastdonzi.]

Thanks Rich, thats the info I was looking for:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[David]

I admit to bias, but I'd buy a Tuff if I won the lotto.

http://www.tuffmarine.com/

What was George Linder's connection with Charger in Ontario?

[Fast Shafts]

Isn't Tuff a splash of the Challenger/Superboat????:mad:

[RBT]

Isn't Tuff a splash of the Challenger/Superboat????:mad:

Kinda
The bottom has had a fair bit of work done to it, the pad and strakes are quite a bit different. As is the deck.
I believe it to be pound for pound the fastest and by far the best built of the Linder inspired 21's.
Right or wrong with the method, I believe it to be head and shoulders the best current production boat.
I have owned both a real Linder/T2X Challenger and a Canadian Aerated Challenger and the Tuff is a better boat. Modern materials and methods have contributed, and the altering of the bottom to carry weight (think modern 2 strokes) and clean off faster have been plus's in my opinion.

RT

[fast fun 2]

The Tufsf are beautiful and would be my choice w/o a budget :cool: If they would build an I/O one I would even know someone whos kicking the idea around

[RBT]

The Tufsf are beautiful and would be my choice w/o a budget :cool: If they would build an I/O one I would even know someone whos kicking the idea around


The do, it just happens to be 28 feet long, but it ran 95.5 with a STOCK 525 merc, that is the fastest single vee with that power.... and it isn't any flyweight calm water sissy.

RT

[T2x]

Of all the "derivatives", Tuff is probably the best. The devotion to materials, performance, and quality is definitely there and the 28 footer is downright gorgeous. My issues with Tuff were mostly about marketing ethics and claims of authorship, but, in fact, the product is pretty good.....and is respected by people I hold in some regard.

T2x

[fast fun 2]

The do, it just happens to be 28 feet long, but it ran 95.5 with a STOCK 525 merc, that is the fastest single vee with that power.... and it isn't any flyweight calm water sissy.

RT
The 28 is amazing looking..but I meant the 21 :cheers:

[Still Crazy]

T2X,

I consider the Challenger/Shadow to be one of, if not the best 21 footers ever designed and produced and I am certainly not alone. Was it the lack of a distribution network, high unit costs or other that resulted in the relatively short life of Challenger and Shadow? Its been splashed by everyone and his uncle and one would think they would have sold like hot cakes.

[ActiveFun]

The do, it just happens to be 28 feet long, but it ran 95.5 with a STOCK 525 merc, that is the fastest single vee with that power.... and it isn't any flyweight calm water sissy.

RT

How fast is the Tuff 28 with outboards compared to the 525?

[T2x]

T2X,

I consider the Challenger/Shadow to be one of, if not the best 21 footers ever designed and produced and I am certainly not alone. Was it the lack of a distribution network, high unit costs or other that resulted in the relatively short life of Challenger and Shadow? Its been splashed by everyone and his uncle and one would think they would have sold like hot cakes.

Challenger fell victim to the fact that George is a brilliant designer/engineer, but, admittedly, not a day to day manager and his original partners/overhead, etc made the business unviable at that time( I was racing OPC tunnels during Challenger's start up period and was not involved) . There were dozens of unfilled orders when the doors closed, but production was minimal so cash flow was a problem. At that point George turned to me (we've been best friends since the early 60's) and the manufacture of Challengers transitioned to Image/Shadow and we did a pretty good job of making product.

Shadow was a booming business between the cats and vees. We completed one 30 foot cat and two 21 vees a month while I ran it and never missed a delivery date. I believe that, after George and I left, the remaining management never delivered a single boat on time. Since I did the majority of the sales as well as my GM role, my departure pretty well sealed the deal. There was a lawsuit which cost the other partner in Shadow quite a bit in legal fees plus the settlement I received. Add to that the fact that George took the cat design to Chris Craft and their marketing machine and the end of Shadow was a foregone conclusion.

There was also a 36 foot Shadow Cat plug that I burned during the lawsuit, that would have been a sure winner had we continued.

Sad story...... Fortunately, we had success with the Conquest Cats in later years, but the 21 footer fell victim to partnership splits, and copycats. By the time we looked back at it, the market had pretty well gone on to larger performance boats and the margins on the smaller hulls remain too lean to this day.

T2x

[Still Crazy]

Sad story indeed. It is kind of neat however, for the people who own a 21' Challenger or one of it's derivatives. People come up to me at the ramp and dock all the time inquiring about my boat. Not too many of them over here in the great lakes area. Everyone thinks its a Donzi.

[Kartracer]

Rich, I love reading your posts. How long did the Shadow thing last with you? I don't come across many Shadow 21's for sale. Maybe I am not looking in the right places.

[T2x]

You burned the 36 cat plug during the lawsuit? Did the Fire Department catch wind of it? THAT would be a good size fire to see. Just hope it was outside and not inside. Got any pictures?

burned outside........ after being cut up and put in a pile.

[T2x]

Rich, I love reading your posts. How long did the Shadow thing last with you? I don't come across many Shadow 21's for sale. Maybe I am not looking in the right places.

I was a partner/owner of Image Boat co. (Shadow's Manufacturer) from 1978 to 1983. That was when all of the development happened.

[AirRide]

Challenger fell victim to the fact that George is a brilliant designer/engineer, but not a day to day manager and his original partners/overhead, etc made the business unviable at that time( I was racing OPC tunnels during Challenger's start up period and was not involved) . There were dozens of unfilled orders when the doors closed, but production was minimal so cash flow was a problem. At that point George turned to me (we've been best friends since the early 60's) and the manufacture of Challengers transitioned to Image/Shadow and we did a pretty good job of making product.

Shadow was a booming business between the cats and vees. We completed one 30 foot cat and two 21 vees a month while I ran it and never missed a delivery date. I believe that, after George and I left, the remaining management never delivered a single boat on time. Since I did the majority of the sales as well as my GM role, my departure pretty well sealed the deal. There was a lawsuit which cost the other partner in Shadow quite a bit in legal fees plus the settlement I received. Add to that the fact that George took the cat design to Chris Craft and their marketing machine and the end of Shadow was a foregone conclusion.

There was also a 36 foot Shadow Cat plug that I burned during the lawsuit, that would have been a sure winner had we continued.

Sad story...... Fortunately, we had success with the Conquest Cats in later years, but the 21 footer fell victim to partnership splits, and copycats. By the time we looked back at it, the market had pretty well gone on to larger performance boats and the margins on the smaller hulls remain too lean to this day.

T2xT2x-Who was the other partner in Shadow you mentioned?

[Superbender]

I realize I might be stirrin the pot here(I respect and agree with Rich about construction)but why dont we see any old challengers/shadows like we see Superboats?just wondering:rolleyes:

[ActiveFun]

I realize I might be stirrin the pot here(I respect and agree with Rich about construction)but why dont we see any old challengers/shadows like we see Superboats?just wondering:rolleyes:

I thought that was answered in post #19?

[T2x]

I realize I might be stirrin the pot here(I respect and agree with Rich about construction)but why dont we see any old challengers/shadows like we see Superboats?just wondering:rolleyes:


John "popped out" the boats at a low price for many years...so he made a larger number of hulls than we did in only the 6 or 7 years when Challengers and Shadows were actually selling...also Shadows and Challengers were shipped nationwide and into Canada...Most of the S/Boats are clustered on the south shore of Long Island so the impression of numbers is somewhat skewed in your area.

T2x

[RobF]

how awesome would it be to find a candian shadow that has hardly been used and stored in a barn, imagine how nice it would have stayed all these years with such short seasonal use

[T2x]

how awesome would it be to find a candian shadow that has hardly been used and stored in a barn, imagine how nice it would have stayed all these years with such short seasonal use

And you could pay Canadian dollars for it....... :D

Of course it would have been frozen at 20 below for 6 months out of each year.

[RBT]

And you could pay Canadian dollars for it....... :D

Of course it would have been frozen at 20 below for 6 months out of each year.

Ouch, you guys are harsh. It isn't near as cold here as your weather people would have you think. I am in Toronto which is at the same latitude as northern California. I am 30 miles across the lake from Niagara falls. It is warmer here than there due to lake effect. We boat from April to Nov.
I have never seen either a shadow or Image (other than cats) up here. I have seen many Challenger 21's... real ones

[T2x]

Ouch, you guys are harsh. It isn't near as cold here as your weather people would have you think. I am in Toronto which is at the same latitude as northern California.

Well there you go......... of course San Francisco is 5 or 6 degrees south of you and LA is 10, but I digress..... :D

We will gladly send you Al Gore, whose hot air creates a tropical green house effect wherever he travels.

T2x

[RBT]

You can keep Al and Obama, might as well move north...

[T2x]

T2x-Who was the other partner in Shadow you mentioned?

Air Ride

1. What is your name?

2. See question 1

[RobF]

lets toss a heated barn into the fantasy then :thumbsup:

[Still Crazy]

John "popped out" the boats at a low price for many years...so he made a larger number of hulls than we did in only the 6 or 7 years when Challengers and Shadows were actually selling...also Shadows and Challengers were shipped nationwide and into Canada...Most of the S/Boats are clustered on the south shore of Long Island so the impression of numbers is somewhat skewed in your area.

T2x

I live in NE Ohio, own a 21' Superboat and have never seen another one anywhere else I've traveled other than LI. Ditto in regards to Challengers and Shadows. I know they must exist, but not many appeared to have made it very far west of LI.

[fast fun 2]

I realize I might be stirrin the pot here(I respect and agree with Rich about construction)but why dont we see any old challengers/shadows like we see Superboats?just wondering:rolleyes:
We do.Me, Vnemous,JaysAwesome,one on LG etc etc

[David]

I think the twin 250XS 28 Tuff was a couple of mph slower than the 525, but had wicket acceleration.

What was the George Linder/Charger connection? Did he design anything for them, or just license the 21?

[AnthonySS]

Didn't Ron Pfaff have a 21 shadow?

[T2x]

T2x
1. Frank Stein

2. See answer 1

Okay...

Their were actually two other partners in Image Shadow:

Elbie Kronenberg... 33.3% a retail marine dealer (Mercury, Sea Ray) on Lake Hopatcong

Elbie's dealership was the base for my OPC tunnel boat racing.

Don Lostumbo....... 33.3%

Don was my partner in my main business and also left during the suit. He was never active in the day to day business, although the glass shop/laminate manager, Larry Wirtzberger, was his crew chief on the Grand Prix Hydro Don drove previously. Don and I agreed that as partners in many companies we would always include the other in any venture so there were no "sidelines" in the relationship. The guy who did the plug work (internally... Shadow Cat Hull), Dick Knarich, I recruited as we had grown up together in OPC racing. The external plug builder ( creator of the Challenger plug, the Shadow Cat deck, and the 37 Shadow Cat hull and deck plug) was George Linder's brother in law, Ginther, a German born pattern maker. The scale models of the Shadow Cat and Challenger used in the boat shows were scratch built by George's son who learned his wood working skills from his uncle. The paint shop and assembly manager was a guy who originally owned a body shop down the street from Don's and my office. All of the team was recruited after we made the decision to build performance boats. Basically the entire team was brought in by me or Don.

Nuff said, now go away.

[T2x]

What was the George Linder/Charger connection? Did he design anything for them, or just license the 21?

None of the above. Their is no "license" from George to build the Tuff. The only "license's" ever given were to Ron Mander in Canada, years ago, Bob Hammond, and Chris Craft for the cat.

[Still Crazy]

Okay...

Their were actually two other partners in Image Shadow:

Elbie Kronenberg... 33.3% a retail marine dealer (Mercury, Sea Ray) on Lake Hopatcong

Elbie's dealership was the base for my OPC tunnel boat racing.

Don Lostumbo....... 33.3%

Don was my partner in my main business and also left during the suit. He was never active in the day to day business, although the glass shop/laminate manager, Larry Wirtzberger, was his crew chief on the Grand Prix Hydro Don drove previously. Don and I agreed that as partners in many companies we would always include the other in any venture so there were no "sidelines" in the relationship. The guy who did the plug work (internally... Shadow Cat Hull), Dick Knarich, I recruited as we had grown up together in OPC racing. The external plug builder ( creator of the Challenger plug, the Shadow Cat deck, and the 37 Shadow Cat hull and deck plug) was George Linder's brother in law, Ginther, a German born pattern maker. The scale models of the Shadow Cat and Challenger used in the boat shows were scratch built by George's son who learned his wood working skills from his uncle. The paint shop and assembly manager was a guy who originally owned a body shop down the street from Don's and my office. All of the team was recruited after we made the decision to build performance boats. Basically the entire team was brought in by me or Don.

Nuff said, now go away.

Very interesting story, T2X!!

[T2x]

You can keep Al and Obama, might as well move north...

I am thinking about it...now that Canada is more conservative than the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic of America.

[T2x]

Very interesting story, T2X!!

Nothing here is meant to demean Elbie, who was an enthusiastic backer of the enterprize. We had a major falling out over a number of issues.

Later on he and I made peace and were friendly up to the time of his death.

He was a truly unique guy with a number of quirky traits and a legendary dealer on Lake Hopatcong where nobody could quite pin him down at any time and a tendency to "almost" promise anything to anybody.

T2x

[T2x]

lets toss a heated barn into the fantasy then :thumbsup:

A heated barn in Canada?........ now that is a fantasy.

[blkmtrfan]

Thank you, once again, Rich for your information and insite, I always enjoy reading your posts. :thumbsup:

Have you ever considered writing a book?
Your writing, Darren pictures, seriously? :cheers:

[T2x]

Thank you, once again, Rich for your information and insite, I always enjoy reading your posts. :thumbsup:

Have you ever considered writing a book?
Your writing, Darren pictures, seriously? :cheers:

Thanks for the kind words

As you may know, Darren is marketing DVD's of the Offshore races I narrated over the years for TV. I will probably write a couple of books after I retire in a few years on OPC, Offshore, and general racing characters and anecdotes.

I also have a novel outlined with two chapters completed that has nothing to do with boats or racing.

T2x

[blkmtrfan]

You are welcome

I, and I am sure others, look forward to them

[Ghost S84]

Everyone borrows from others throughout history, but George Linder is the real genius when it comes to this design..Rich what boat(s) inspired george to make the challenger? there has to be something??

[T2x]

Everyone borrows from others throughout history, but George Linder is the real genius when it comes to this design..Rich what boat(s) inspired george to make the challenger? there has to be something??

The Challenger is the perfect marriage of 3 concepts:

1. Hull and performance- Eltro Boats from East Islip. These are hulls that George and I raced in the 60's. The big ones inspired your grandfather to get a cut down 20 footer from Glastron so he could compete. They had a non constant vee bottom that made both the Eltros and the Challenger unique. This feature reduced wetted surface and made a big boat run like it was 2-3feet smaller in speed, with a ride like a Cadillac.

2. Styling and appointments- Cigarette's 20 footer

3. Name- George had a dual engine, red metalflake, Carlson "Challenger" (rigged at your place, K&K Outboard, by Willie Schaefer, your grandfather, and me) which he called (with no originality) "Challenger 1" written prominently in real gold leaf lettering on each side. His first 18 foot Eltro was called "Challenger II", his second was a 23 footer raced in Miami -Nassau and his third was an 18 footer called "The Vulture". Fortunately, he returned to the Challenger name...or this thread would be about "Vultures".

:D :D

The end result was certainly greater than the sum of the parts as the boat outperformed the Eltros, was styled and laid out much better than the Cig...and took a name that was basically associated with a quirky west coast flivver and elevated it to the top of the game.

T2x

[Ghost S84]

GReat info rich..nice to know what sparked the ideas. I know the ghost was based mainly off the glastron but most likely my dad borrowed some linder ideas too

[donmac]

my shadow is just starting to thaw so I might start it up in a couple days.

[SCT]

Anyone know what the Tuff 28' weighs? That is some incredible #s for dual 250 Mercs.

[Image 21]

i have a 21 image and love it, just don`t know if to call it an image or a shadow?

[DKerns]

i have a 21 image and love it, just don`t know if to call it an image or a shadow?


If thats the same one that I saw in Lloyds Creek in Maryland, that is a very nice looking boat!! Looks fast sitting still!! If it is, did you get a windshield for it yet??

[euro scott]

took my 90 Shadow to the landfill and had it weighed 4450 lbs with no fuel,, talk about overbuilt ! when I saw that the sides were 3/4 in thick core, while installing the new bow lights I knew it wasnt going to be pretty. Im thinking the trailer is 1000 lbs and the motor (300 XS )is 500 with the tank and harness.. It needs a diet..I think the back seat alone is 150 lbs, I had to use tractor and loader to put it in..

[Peter118]

I have a 1976 Challenger I/O. I rebuilt it a couple years ago and I had the Challenger21 logo put on that I think was put on the Canadian built Challenger
Was the original Challenger logo with the Challenger on top and the prop on the bottom in the half pentagon ?.
I would like to have the original logo on the sides to differentiate my REAL challenger from the copies.
Thanks

Peter

[T2x]

i have a 21 image and love it, just don`t know if to call it an image or a shadow?

That's a Shadow..... period, end of story.

[T2x]

took my 90 Shadow to the landfill and had it weighed 4450 lbs with no fuel,, talk about overbuilt ! when I saw that the sides were 3/4 in thick core, while installing the new bow lights I knew it wasnt going to be pretty. Im thinking the trailer is 1000 lbs and the motor (300 XS )is 500 with the tank and harness.. It needs a diet..I think the back seat alone is 150 lbs, I had to use tractor and loader to put it in..

Based on the year built, I am not surprised, but, that is awfully heavy. The sides should be 1/2 " core and as new balsa that isn't very much weight. It sounds like your hull core has absorbed water and was probably laminated in such a way that it is allowing this absorption at an alarming rate.

T2x

[T2x]

I have a 1976 Challenger I/O. I rebuilt it a couple years ago and I had the Challenger21 logo put on that I think was put on the Canadian built Challenger
Was the original Challenger logo with the Challenger on top and the prop on the bottom in the half pentagon ?.
I would like to have the original logo on the sides to differentiate my REAL challenger from the copies.
Thanks

Peter

Sounds like the original Logo.

[Image 21]

That's a Shadow..... period, end of story.
yeah gave you my hull # a while back you said it was one of yours it`s a great boat :cheers:

[Image 21]

If thats the same one that I saw in Lloyds Creek in Maryland, that is a very nice looking boat!! Looks fast sitting still!! If it is, did you get a windshield for it yet??no i`m on the eastern shore of maryland. i have the windshield on now. just redid some stuff on her,fuel tank,paint,interior,gauges.and she`s fast just not fine tuned enough yet

[DKerns]

no i`m on the eastern shore of maryland. i have the windshield on now. just redid some stuff on her,fuel tank,paint,interior,gauges.and she`s fast just not fine tuned enough yet


There was one that looked a lot like yours a Lloyds a while back!! Either way, nice looking boat!!:cheers:

[David]

I persist in thinking that Charger built a few 21's with Mr Linder's approval. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Did he have any other involvement with Charger? The Charger 18 DL was certainly styled to look like a 21.

[RBT]

The 18 Charger, was advertised in 1981 when it came out as designed by George Linder.

[T2x]

The 18 Charger, was advertised in 1981 when it came out as designed by George Linder.

That is correct...but it is not a 21 footer. George also did some design work on other hulls as well...having nothing to do with this topic.

[RBT]

That is correct...but it is not a 21 footer. George also did some design work on other hulls as well...having nothing to do with this topic.

The 18 Charger was a similar boat to the 21, it used the same deck that was cut down to fit. The cockpit and transom well are exactly the same. Same with the construction methods. It was build beside the Mander Challengers. An awesome running boat.

[vnemous]

Sounds like the original Logo.

Me, George Linder and an original.

http://i32.tinypic.com/nybinp.jpg

[AnthonySS]

aside to chargers?...didn't the SK and DL share the same bottom?

[RBT]

aside to chargers?...didn't the SK and DL share the same bottom?

No, the SK was still Linder, but was different, it had some aids to help plane the boat quicker for skiing.

[AnthonySS]

Ok so the Sk was Linder as well...then what was the MCP product stuff from the late 70's...wasn't that Conzano's the lead up to Charger?

[AnthonySS]

See attached . Is this Linder and Conzano?

[fast fun 2]

Hey Rich..I hate bothering you with questions..but..how many I/o Challengers and Shadows were made compared to O/B ones? Id really like to find a nice I/O oen but its not easy.

[AirRide]

Hey Rich..I hate bothering you with questions..but..how many I/o Challengers and Shadows were made compared to O/B ones? Id really like to find a nice I/O oen but its not easy.Yes, what were the exact production numbers of Shadow while you were there? If anyone would know, you would.:)

[T2x]

See attached . Is this Linder and Conzano?


George Linder is neither of the people in that picture.

[T2x]

Hey Rich..I hate bothering you with questions..but..how many I/o Challengers and Shadows were made compared to O/B ones? Id really like to find a nice I/O oen but its not easy.

We made maybe 1 I/O 21 foot hull for every 6 boats manufactured at Shadow. George's original I/O Challengers had about the same ratio or even less. The I/O's were pretty neat, but they really needed a "shorty" drive to get anywhere near their true potential.

T2x

[fast fun 2]

We made maybe 1 I/O 21 foot hull for every 6 boats manufactured at Shadow. George's original I/O Challengers had about the same ratio or even less. The I/O's were pretty neat, but they really needed a "shorty" drive to get anywhere near their true potential.

T2x
Thanks man, appreciate it

[fastdonzi.]

Sooo Rich (T2x) Is the Powerplay 25' a Challenger Bottom too? I thought I read somewhere that it was, kinda like the Apache. Maybe Danny Copied theirs (apache) instead of yours (that'd be a switch :) )

[T2x]

I really have no idea and would need to look at one in person to make an intelligent comment. 25 feet seems like quite a stretch, although there is a fairly popular 28 footer that was made from a 21 Challenger with about 7 feet of constant section added on behind a "step" where the original transom ended. When looking at the boat from below, you can clearly see the delineation between the builders as the bottom has beautiful flowing curves forward of the step and bare bones straight lines aft.

T2x

[Donat]

Guessing Kryptonite?

[ActiveFun]

I wasnt going to ask the question lol

[FUJIMO]

The 25' PP hull came from the 22' Apache hull.

[delawarerick]

I have always been a fan of these boats and enjoy the history I have one question did anybody built a similar boat down here in Miami,Fl? Reason I ask is there was a 21 carrera on CL that looked very close to a 21 superboat. Thanks Rick

[FUJIMO]

I have always been a fan of these boats and enjoy the history I have one question did anybody built a similar boat down here in Miami,Fl? Reason I ask is there was a 21 carrera on CL that looked very close to a 21 superboat. Thanks Rick

Not a Carrera. But a 21 Carraza. They were built in Sanford, Fl. They were built fairly well too, I might add. Same deck design as the 21 Rally Sport.

[fast fun 2]

Guessing Kryptonite?

Yup....awesome running boat as well...almost as good as my challenger :D

[spbutler]

took my 90 Shadow to the landfill and had it weighed 4450 lbs with no fuel,, talk about overbuilt ! when I saw that the sides were 3/4 in thick core, while installing the new bow lights I knew it wasnt going to be pretty. Im thinking the trailer is 1000 lbs and the motor (300 XS )is 500 with the tank and harness.. It needs a diet..I think the back seat alone is 150 lbs, I had to use tractor and loader to put it in..
Is that a 1990 Team Shadow?
Are you saying 4450 lbs with boat motor and trailer or boat alone?