opposing or same side dual cable

[H2Onut]

On a vector or any HP boat if you run dual cable steering which is the prefered method, are there advantages to one or the other ?

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

SO to move the boulder is it better with both guys pushing or 1 pushing and 1 pulling ?

[Just Streamin]

H20nut- I would go with dual opposing thats what my brother runs on his vector and it works great,no problems at all and gps it at 83 and nothing but smooth steering. Also I think Allisons come w/ dual opposing. just my opinion.

[H2Onut]

Have seen them both ways. More same side that opposing though, I would think dual opposing also, but open to all suggestions...


THANKS MIKE

[AQUAholic]

The dual opposed is good cause you have two attachment points from cables to motor, instead of that one small through the steering arm.

Same side is good cause the cables are stronger when being pulled on instead of pushing, thats why in stock form thay are all put on the Starboard side.

Hope this makes sense.

[Balzy]

on opposed vs. single side? When you adjust your cable properly on either system one cable is pulling at a time anyway. Dual opposed or same side, when you tension the cables to take the slack out, one will be pulling in one direction, one will be pulling in the other.

I believe and agree the dual opposed is a better system. I changed over to it. I don't like my life hanging on one 3/8 - 24 bolt.

If you would snap a cable (which I have never seen) you would still have one cable working for you on either system.

I still think opposed is the only way to go in a boat that runs over 70 MPH beacause if you break off that one little bolt on the single side dual cable system you are going for a hell of a ride !!!!!!!!

[Rickracer]

...but just in case you forgot, I'll reiterate. Dual opposed is the best system, for most of the reasons listed above, and I like the symmetry of it. :D :cool:

[LBS]

Hay!
Can sumeone show a pic of a Dual opposed set up.
Thanks
Larry

[AnthonySS]

From Front

[AnthonySS]

Double NUT Assembly

[Techno]

With same side cables and the steering torque, both cables are always in tension, not compression. When the cables would normaly go in compression, they don't its just less tension, the torque is turning the engine. The cable is letting it move while under tension.

On opposing side, only one cable is in tension, if that one breaks then the other goes into full compression to hold against the torque.


So what needs to be done is having 2 bolts for same side steering.

You have to picture the outboard with a huge spring always trying to turn it counterclockwise. This spring never breaks!

How do Hydraulics hook up? I know there are different ways. Do any of them use more than one link to the engine?

[AQUAholic]

Yes, the Sea Star hydraulic system uses the one bolt idea to attach the ram to the steering arm on the motor just like the same side dual cable uses.

I agree, I would like to make a 2 bolt attachment plate for my same side dual cable system too.

[Balzy]

Interesting thoughts but I gotta disagree for now. When you pull the cable tight to adjust the aux steering tube you are putting the other cable under compression. On opposed you pull on the aux tube cable and it is pulling (not pushing the other cable (the one thru the tilt tube). I say with opposed you always have tension on both cables. Not to mention you can never take the slop out of the single rod end that attaches to the steering arm on the same side system. On the dual opposed you take up any slop in the two rod ends. I built my own adapter and made the rods and used aircraft quality rod ends with 1/2" shoulder bolts. (1/2" shoulder w/ 3/8"-16 threads tapped into adapter and lock nutted for safety) The shoulder bolt gives it more side to side strength because the shoulder is doing the work, not the threads. No slop, no chance of failure that I can see.

Am I missing something here?

[Balzy]

..

[AQUAholic]

Good looking setup Mike !!

That should outlast us all.

[Balzy]

I made one first for one of the long skinny steering arms I had for a while. The swapped one piece adapter plates and just took the steering arm with it but had to redesign the part for the wide short arm. I did one in between for Steve A but I wasn't happy with the arc that the arm swung. No matter how you position the rod ends you will alway have one arm swinging a different arc than the other. It really is no big deal until you get it turned almost all the way to the motor stop but at that point you will loose some of your cable preload tension. Actually it is just fine in the normal go fast operating range and it lets the cables breath a little near the end of the strake so it steers nice and easy around the docks. I did improve the location on the last one I made for mine though.

This is a pic of the first design for the long skinny arms. Notice the slot machined in the bottom. It fits snug over the arm so the load is taken up by the adapter, not the mounting bolts. This one worked out great........

[Balzy]

that I made mine to replace. This one was on Mike's old Vector. Pretty wimpy for the money they get for the kit I think.........

[Balzy]

This shows the relief cit to saddle the steering arm better.

[Balzy]

I resized them all to 5" wide or smaller????????

[Cp]

Nice work all around. Machine shop at home? Need some CAD work on those drawings? :D

[AnthonySS]

...Balzy...I realy like the way you utilized the shipping holes on the steering yoke!!

[action17]

i have dual oppesed on mine using a tandr bracket!! having an action marine whitch we all know is very similar to the streams and not the easiest boat in the world to drive!! i have not had any troulbe with it!! cant coment on the same side cables simple because i've never driven anything with them!! good luck :cool:

[Balzy]

Got cad on my station here at work. No problem there. Pleanty of CNC's in the shop. Just keep suck'in ass with the boys back there and get all my projects done for me. It's great, I do the design and drawings and never have to get my hands dirty. LOL

[Techno]

With the parts you've made have you given any thought to what a fixture would be like for same side?
I'm considering it and I see the arc as a problem.
So far it seems as though 2 links are needed for the same side too. Unless they share the same bolt on the yoke they have different arcs. The same bolt is what I would like to get away from.

What is the material you used?

I also wondered why these connections aren't wire tied like they do on aircraft. A lousy piece of nylon to jam the nut in place?

Depending on the monitors rez. A picture about 600 pixel horizontal will fit with the side box. 640 is the old (what I use) horizontal pixels and something less than this for the side box will make it fit.
Your last picture is 1500 x 1000 and thats why it don't fit.

[Techno]

I was looking thorugh the merc book and they only list same side hookups-single engine. The only instructions for the apposed is for twins. I think the apposed was for counter rotating so that would make it the right side for that engine. Showed same side, apposed on the outside and apposed on the inside.

That got me thinking. When would you hook up a single cable to the left side and run a regular OB? For a single cable.

[Balzy]

ABOUT A DUAL BOLT SINGLE SIDE SYSTEM. Damn caps locks !!!!!!!!!! Guess that's what happens when type ****ty like me and have to look at the keyboard all the time. Anyway, I have the same problem with the arcs. Haven't figured the geometry around it yet. Haven't put much thought into it after I converted to opposed though. I did think about for a while because I think if you could offer a kit it would sell. The first pics for the shorter fatter arm is stainless steel. The other pics for the long skinny older arms is cold rolled steel then I had it powder coated.

[Balzy]

ABOUT A DUAL BOLT SINGLE SIDE SYSTEM. Damn caps locks !!!!!!!!!! Guess that's what happens when type ****ty like me and have to look at the keyboard all the time. Anyway, I have the same problem with the arcs. Haven't figured the geometry around it yet. Haven't put much thought into it after I converted to opposed though. I did think about for a while because I think if you could offer a kit it would sell. The first pics for the shorter fatter arm is stainless steel. The other pics for the long skinny older arms is cold rolled steel then I had it powder coated.

[Rickracer]

What about something like this? At least the studs would be in double sheer. Or, you could offset, and make one longer than the other, but that would require a tiller arm adapter.

[BarryStrawn]

Rick, I don't believe there is enough vertical space to make a mount like you sketched without hacking up the cowling. I would describe that as a pair of single shear mounts.

But a double shear plate is a useful upgrade for those worried about the strength of that one bolt. Just make matching plates for the top and bottom of the tiller arm sandwiching a single rod end. I have a set I made from .120 stainless for opposed hookup but it would also work for a single arm. It was difficult to install with the limited working space and needed different steering arms to match the relocated rod end. But double shear is the only good solution. As Carroll Smith said, "the single shear mount is a crime against nature and a perversion of the bad engineer."

In any case, the single shear rating for a regular AN-6 (3/8" UNF) bolt is 8,280 lbs. Is anyone really breaking these bolts? That is a lot of force to generate with no resistance except the engines mass and the driver turning the wheel. Grossly overtorqued might do it but I can't imagine how you can generate enough force in the steering systems to overstress that bolt. Perhaps in an accident but then you should be replacing all the important bolts anyway.

The mickey mouse bent arms, loose nylock nuts with no cotter key or safety wire and crimped cable ends worry me a lot more than that one bolt. I've heard of broken T&R steering arms from time to time but I don't remember anyone reporting the bolt itself failing.

[TD]

I have been driving Streams and other pad boats since 1976 . The ONLY steering failure I ever had was on my STV with hyd steering. The single nut backed off at full throttle and when I shut it down it was an exciting ride. Sorry, my point being that Hydrostream in the old days used almost exclusively dual opposed steering. The one exception that I'm aware of was on the Varmint Bass boat. Dual oppossed wouldn't have helped it tho as they were a foul handleing piece of sh7t. Would have been a great little boat set up like an Allison w/ center steer!
TD

[Balzy]

where the single bole broke on a HST. The spun real bad and pitched the driver out. All was ok in the end. A few bruises for the driver and the boat was fine. He idled it back home hanging on to the mota steering it with a bear hug !!!!!!!!!1:eek: :eek: :eek:

Rick Barry is right. Thee's not a lot of room to work with on a 2.5 anyway. I had to put an elongated slot in my lower pan to accept the height of the shoulder bolts on my last design. The first design for the older skinny steering arm just had clearance for the shoulder bolts. No matter how you do it, it is a bitch to assemble it without pulling the powerhead and lower pan. Barry's idea looks pretty good to me though as an attachment design. Your sketch looks like it would work real well too. Maybe a guy could make two plates like Barry's with the rod end mounting holes off to one side of the steering arm and use the two rods and rod ends.................. Nope forget it, that won't work. Ya gotta have the rods above and below each other so they swing the same arcs. See what happens when you type as you think !!!!!!!!:D :D :D

[Techno]

I've got the answer!
Fly by wire! Thats what some of the cars are going to. The C-5 Vette uses it on the throttle and I heard a car was going to use it for steering.
Thats just what we need, another circuit to corrode. This is the wave of the future though and soon we'll be on the dock running our boats completely by wire.

No throttle cables.
No steering cables.
No shift cables.
No fishing cables.(fishin poles)

Come to think of it we're in the dark ages with all these cable control systems!

[Rickracer]

I sketched that in a couple of minutes this morning with MS Paint. Not a very great drawing program, but all I have on the shop puter. The two arms will have to swing the same arc, unless the two cables move different distances. That could be accomplished by some sort of bellcrank, but then it becomes un-necessarily complex. I think Barry's idea of double sheer plates with gigunda rod ends is the best solution.

[H2Onut]

OK so whos stepping up to the plate and going to market a limitied few custom brackets for dual opposed for a Merc 2.4 offshore housing ?????? whos wants to make a few $$$ who's design will revolutionize the dual opposed dual nut solution ????

[captcarb]

Check out Mercury's smartcraft system. It has a data bus that takes care of everything except steering. The throttle and shift are fly by wire, all of the instrumentation is fed into a lcd display similiar to what you proposed at one time. It also accepts mavigational data from gps.

My next door neighbor did some of the development testing, and I rode in the boat prior to public release, some time ago.

One of my friends had one of those high$$$ diesel pusher motorhomes with fly by wire on the throttle. It failed of course and he drove it to the dealer using a piece of clothesline which he held in his hand for a throttle. And that, as Paul Harvey would say is the rest of the story.

I have flown airplanes with fly by wire systems and they have a nice control feel, but I don't trust it, no matter how many backups there are. There is always the weak point overlooked in the design.

Jim

[Gerben]

Hi,

Saw an interesting steering-hookup on some of the Belgian ski-racers. The steering cables come from the front and hook up each to on side of the tilt-tube, perpendicular to the tilt tube. The other end is attached to a kind of wingplate.
This makes it dual opposed and completely separate, not even depending on one steering arm.
Sorry, no pictures.

Gerben