Unreligious Christanity........ [Archive] - Scream And Fly Powerboat and High Performance Powerboating Discussion Forums

AnthonySS

06-19-2002, 07:57 AM

Racing for Reason by Anthony S. Santocono

This Article may not be suitable for all readers. You may find it controversial. You may be offended. I may even lose your friendship over it, but it is a story and I must tell in its truth. Some of you are aware that I had a personal goal to establish an Outboard Drag Boat Racing league for the 1998 season. It was really in my heart and I wanted to make sure I did it for all the right reasons. The right reason, for me, was to put something into enhancing our performance boat recreation to the next level. You see our boats are getting incredibly fast. We no longer just have 80 mph and 100 mph top-speed boats. At the 1998 Lake Muskoka Charity Poker Run there were approximately ten-100 mph plus boats on the run. As a club we can no longer recommend these 100 speeds during our runs with approximately 40 other boats. It could get downright dangerous, especially as water conditions and local traffic on the waters increases over the day. So lets go racing for those who want to go fast. For a portion of out Club, Outboard Drag Boat racing was my plan.

Unfortunately, cancer was not part of the plan. That’s right! In May of 1998, I was diagnosed with a cancer. A so-called “good cancer” called Semenoma, which affects 1 in 500,000 men per year. After the removal of the tumor, I was prescribed by a leading oncologist, at the Toronto Sunnybrook Regional Cancer Center, (TSRCC), to undergo 20 Sessions of radiation therapy. This was totally unheard of by me especially when the prescription was for 4 weeks of therapy at 5 days per those weeks. For one the first times in my life I felt totally out of control and had to surrender to someone else’s decisions for my life.

You see I now understand that this type of surrender was a good thing for me because it led to someone who could really help me. First, that person sent many of you fellow club members to my side for support. Some of you even visited with me in person during my surgery recovery. I really needed this support because many of you revealed your less than “macho”, boat side, with me and you also shared your similar experiences with me. I felt like I was not alone. You see the person I am talking that helped me is Christ. That’s right Jesus Christ. See this is the controversy I am talking about.

Some of you may stop reading now or you may chose to read on to see how this relates to BOAT RACING. The remainder of this article is not going to be about preaching, so once again read on if you will.

Just prior to my surgery, I was really scared. Some people told me about how Christ could help me. So on the May Long weekend, I decided to get baptized. I know some of you are probably thinking I got dressed up in a suit, stood before a large congregation and was dunked by a TV evangelist. As a matter a fact it was quite the contrary. I baptized myself wearing my usual weekend attire in the zebra mussel infested, Rice Lake. It also happened to be off our dock and there was no one else there. You see I needed help!

Just a little more back ground. You see, as I understand, GOD/Christ does not want us to give up our lifestyle in order for us to accept him as our savior. Once again It’s quite the contrary. He wasn’t asking me to trade in my High Performance Boat, for a collar, My 4x4 truck for a “K” car (sorry don’t mean to offend “K”Car Owners). He wasn’t asking me to cut my hair, stop listening to rock music, or stop making love to my wife. I just have to thank Him for all the blessings I have been given, and He will continue to allow me use them for His purpose. I understand that l could continue in this High Performance Boat Life style for greater benefit of all of us, or “Race for Reasons”, to share my fortune with those that are less fortunate, Gee where have a heard that before.!

If any of you others follow professional sport, you will realize that some of this worlds greatest champions have risen to where they are because they’ve got God/Jesus on their side. One of my favorite sports, NASCAR, Winston Cup Racing, has perhaps one of the greatest drivers to be. Jeff Gordon continually thanks God for all his victories and blessings. His past crew Chief Ray Evernham did like wise. I think that as long as Jeff keeps praising God, God will use him to change the face of Auto Racing. Jeff also raises proceeds for Bone Marrow Cancer Research.

Have you ever wondered what happened to that two-sport athlete that played Major League Baseball and NFL Football? Remember he did major corporate TV commercials and made more money than many could imagine. Well his name is Deion Sanders and you don’t ever see him doing TV commercials any more. Deion has also turned his life over to Jesus and is still continuing to use his gift of playing sport with the Dallas Cowboys. Deion says that the next Dallas Super Bowl “will be for Jesus” He has also told that many of his other teammates are Christians and they rely on him for spiritual leadership.

A little closer related to our own sport, world champion offshore, racing, throttle man John Tomlinson recently told his story about becoming a Christian in an interview with “POWERBOAT Magazine. John became a Christian after the lose of his brother and father. He too realized that he had to change something about his life. We all know that John has been blessed with throttling boats like “Zero Defect” and “Drambuie on Ice” to World Championships.

I have a lot of respect and admiration for these gentlemen and how they are trying to make a better world for the rest of us. You see being Christian doesn’t make your better than anyone or perfect. For me, it just means I accept myself as a “less than perfect person” and God can help me through anything.

With all this incentive, “Fight the Good Fight” (1Timothy 6.12) Racing was born to Anthony and Roslyn Santocono in May of 1998. I had my playground, Outboard Drag Boat Racing, and Cancer gave me part of my cause.

Aside from the great successes we had putting our first outboard drag racing event together in Hamilton, I got my annual itch. You know the one I talked about years-ago about, “how I love to Race”. It was Alderville Regatta (on Rice Lake) time again, and I had that same old recurring dream \ nightmare. You see the last time I participated in the Alderville Regatta (1994); I ended up tossing Mark Hettwer and myself into Rice Lake after we had won the race. This was at the expense of Mark’s Vegas and his prescription glasses. This all occurred because my EGO got in the way and I had to be “Top Dog” on the Lake for another year.

Well I swore I would not ever race again in this regatta and I retired a champion, at least in my mind. Days before the 1998 event, I had what was a chilling dream to me. I actually dreamt of racing this year. I thought “oh-oh”, why I am even entertaining this thought. I actually thought, “well it would be great to win some money and pocket it for gas expense”. “I could also have bragging rights for another year”. Well consciously this didn’t sit right. I thought I was beyond that type of thinking. You see this is where being “less that perfect comes in”. So I confessed this to GOD and was sure that I would not race in the Regatta again.

Enter my wife ROSLYN… I told Roslyn about this dream and acutely said to her how ashamed I was about thinking about winning some money. She then questioned me about what was really in my heart. There is no question that my heart had been really full lately. Like I really want to pay back, in some way, to all of those who aided me with my Cancer Care. Then my heart said, “ donate your winnings to you Cancer Center (TSRCC). Well what about the trophy? Well Lord knows I don’t need another one of those. All my others are siting in a box under the basement stairs. Well I told Roslyn I would like to win the Trophy for CARMELO. You see Carmelo Ferrara is a real special and loyal friend, who every year encourages me to race, so he can cheer - me on. He then overwhelms me his with praise. This time I wanted to give something back to him, like “win the trophy for Carmelo”! At that moment I felt a peace and strength about racing in the Regatta. I felt that if I race with others in heart, I’m racing for God. That felt RIGHT to ME!

And then my worst nemesis hit me the night before the race. … a MIGRAINE Headache. You see I have been a long time sufferer of Migraines and this would not be the first time a MIGRANE was trying to get the better of me. In other words the enemy was trying to take all Joy (the heart) from me.

Picture from Worchester NEODA Drags 1998

AnthonySS

06-19-2002, 07:59 AM

The day of the REGATTA was now here and my great heartfelt quest was shattered. There was no way I could race now. I was scared, nervous and felt down right crummy from the MIGRAINE effects. Remember all that less than perfect stuff again. Now I felt like a real disappointment as I was going to let GOD down.

Just before the main feature race, my nephew and I headed out to the Lake to watch the fast boats race. I thought I would at least watch the race if I was not going to participate. Once out on the water, I all of a sudden started to feel connected again. The boat that was under me felt real good. I was starting to feel peace. You know the feeling you get after you’ve finally found the sweet spot on your boat. My nephew’s name is Angelo DiFede and he was the “Angelic” Voice that I needed to hear. I turned to him and asked him ” what do you think, should I race?” He turned to me and said, “I think you should!” That was all I needed to here from this Angel. We quickly headed to the registration barge. Angelo registered me and I placed my Helmet on and headed to the infield of the racecourse. I stood up in my boat lifted my open arms up to the Sky and said “I want to do this for You!”

Back on shore my wife Roslyn knew I had made the decision to race and she murmured in her heart “It’s OK Anthony “

The Flag dropped and we were racing. My only competitor was my friend Rob R. racing for his team Owner Bill K. of “Bath Fitter Racing”. I got to the first pin ahead of ROB and then felt the awesome feeling of being connected to machinery and spirit. I think some you can identify with this feeling. We continued to race and on the second lap I noticed that Bath Fitter was making an advance for the lead. I then nudged the throttle of the “Fight the Good fight” Racing, STV to push my boat ahead of “Bath Fitter”. Then a push of wind off my Hull sent the “Bath Fitter”, bow pointing to the Sky. I thought I was going to have to turn around and fish Rob out of the lake. Thankfully GOD did not allow this to happen as Rob was put to the “point of return” and he was racing again as “Fight the Good Fight” coasted to a Victory at the Alderville Regatta.

I was awestruck as my heart was near fulfillment. We won and I was going to keep my promise to GOD. I approached the announcer’s stand and received the trophy and cash prize. I looked the announcer in the eye and said “ I need you to do something”, “Please announce to every one that the Trophy is going to my Brother Carmelo and the Money will be donated the Toronto Sunnybrook for Cancer Care, as I am a recovering Cancer Patient”. The announcer did just that and I was on my way to present Caramelo with the Trophy. Carmelo was elated and I thanked GOD for allowing all of this to Happen. I returned to our Dock and Roslyn and I embraced as she to shared the Joy with me. WE did it and I will continue to ask God to lead me in this racing and Hi performance Boat Club. Stay tuned, as I will also share the trip to Race at Worcester Massachusetts with You. May God Bless you as he has me and by the way my recovery is going well (4 years now). Thanks to God! THANKS For Reading AS

My buddy Carmelo Beside me

WharfRat

06-19-2002, 09:27 AM

BMac, I admire your thoughts & courage to post this thread..

Anthony, awesome story, Bro

Yes Pyro, I'm with you on that

4Him

06-19-2002, 10:07 AM

B.Mac,
Jesus Christ is always a topic to discuss! If we who believe do not discuss with others, we are not doing what He wants us to do. I agree with Anthony. Christianity has nothing to do with being "Religious". And there are those who claim to be Christian that do not live like one. Well, I am very careful not to be judgemental toward these people. That's God's job, not mine. If we want to call people hypocrites, we better do what Jesus says and get the "Plank" out of our own eye before we try to remove their "Splinter"! People who don't know Christ as their personal Savior tend to use the "Hypocrite" thing as a way to make them feel better about not accepting Christ. Once again, that's an observation, not a judgement. Every Christian alive or who has ever lived was hypocritical in some fashion. It's called sin and if you're breathing, your sinning, Christian or not. The difference is that once you've accepted Christ and ask for forgiveness for your sins, you are under His grace from then on. Do Christians keep sinning???? YES. Do we try harder not to??? YES. BUT, He will always and continuously forgive us who are His. People tend to think you have to give up or do something to become a Christian. Truth is, Christ is a "Free" gift. All that's required is "Faith".
We all know that each person will eventually die. So, think of it this way; If you invite Jesus into your heart and you live the rest of your life with all you do wrong forgiven by Him, then you die and I was wrong and there really was no God, you've really lost nothing. However, if you do this and I am right and there "IS" a loving God there when you die, then you've gained eternal life in paradise. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Thanks for starting the forum B. Mac,
Billy

AnthonySS

06-19-2002, 10:24 AM

...I like the FREE Gift!!!

4Him

06-19-2002, 10:43 AM

Anthony,
Ain't it GREAT! Man can you imagine what it would be like if you had to be "Good enough or do Good deeds" to be accepted by God???? I'd never make nor would anyone else. That's another beautiful thing about Jesus. He says come as you are because you CAN'T do anything good enough or for yourself to be saved. He did it ALL on the cross. He created us, so He knows we're going to fail. That's why the "Free Gift" is so great!!!!!!! It's there for the taking. What a Mighty God we serve.
Billy

Rickracer

06-19-2002, 10:58 AM

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. Awesome, just awesome. :)

pyro

06-19-2002, 02:08 PM

Anthony, that's a touching story. Thanks for posting it.

There's a lot of views to be had on this subject. Billy, I admire your post. It makes a lot of sense.

B.Mac

06-19-2002, 03:04 PM

One of the greatest misperceptions about "Christians" is that anyone who wears a cross or professes Christianity is in fact a "Christian".

The second greatest misperception is that Christians believe that they are better than others. A true Christian or follower of Christ understands all to well that it is only by Grace (spiritual empowerment) and Mercy (unmerited favor) that he/ she is able to stand against worldly temptation. Fact is temptation is ever present, and unfortunately causes the most sold-out on fire for God Christians to fall flat on thier "hypocrytical" faces.
But....a Christian SHOULD BE quick to acknowledge his fall and repent (repent simply means to turn away from), and earnestly ask God for the POWER (grace) to make it past the next trial.

The third greatest misperception is that a "church" is a building and that God dwells in the "church". Fact is the "church" is a body of believers.....and not all bodies of believers have the Spirit of God. All too many have a spirit of religion, which is far worse than sin, for it drives away those who need Christ rather than embraces them. Christ "despised" the religious of his day and referred to them as a "pit of vipers" (Pharisees & Sauducies sp?)
These were the "politically correct" religious leaders of his day.

I earnestly pray that some might examine themselves in the context of eternity particularly in this sport which we love so much because high performance boating brings new meaning to the phrase "in the wink of an eye" This Thread is intended to encourage not condemn, explain & not preach, and to stir up the spirit-man that God so carefully placed in each of us. Please do not be offended for this is not my intent. But it is my obligation to share the enormous truth that has been revealed through Christ.
Ask, seek, knock and the door shall be opened to you.

B.MAC:D

:D

AnthonySS

06-19-2002, 03:27 PM

B.MAC....I heart is beating ever so fast reading these posts by you and 4HIM...

you guys are solid... and seem empowered as you write this stuff...I hope someday I will able to pump this stuff out like you guys do!!

4Him

06-19-2002, 03:40 PM

B. MAC,
Very well spoken and Amen. Too, many times those who you are just attempting to enlighten, take it as "Preaching" and get turned off immediately. I, like you, hope that this does not offend, but cause someone to ask one of us more about salvation. And if it does offend, then we just need to pray hard for that person that God will soften their heart to receive the Good News.
Billy

B.Mac

06-19-2002, 03:45 PM

The Word of God says that we overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our TESTIMONY. Your testimony is extremely powerful and moving and is a living testament to the power of our living God at work in your life. Don't sell yourself short.
B.MAC :D

LaveyT

06-19-2002, 04:32 PM

So much of what I have learned about God I have done in the last couple of years.I always belived in God but kinda figured I knew more than him some times.I dont know much of "the word" of God.But I can listen and when I hear it,I know from deep within that it is the truth.....no doubt.I am very spiritual, not very religious.I believe that there are different styles to Gods work, That some of us need to hear the Truth/Word from sources other than Church.As I write now,I have prayed to be selfless,to make the words his and not mine.This is Spirituallity to me.If every once in a while Gods words can be spoken thru me,Instead of the selfcentered crap I come up with,Awsome.
For me it is all about Surrender,Trying every day to let him guide me.When i do this my life is very simple.It is far from perfect, Just simple.If I surrender my urge to control everything around me,I have very little to worry about or agravate me!
Ok,Smart ass Dave is back: I was afraid when I surrendered my will and my life to God,I wouldnt like who I would become.Well i got news for ya.Gods cool with my Quest for speed (within reason!) And all my boating habits in general.On one condition,As long as I dont let these hobbies take control of my life.If I do I will be unhappy and my life will become unmanagable. Its has been very simple for me.If I have a desision to make I pray for guidence. If I feel good about it in my heart i know it is O.K.:)
See ya Dave

kathy

06-19-2002, 08:42 PM

I was raised a catholic, went to catholic schools for 12 years of my life, took religion classes of course they were obviously a requirement. And you know I learned only about the beliefs of the catholics......... and when I went out on my own I thought do I continue to go to mass regularly simply because that was the way I was brought up. I realized then at the age of 19 that simply going into a church doesn't make you any better than those who don't go into a church.

As long as you pray and try to live your life as best you can God still loves you and still answers your prayers. It is something that comes from within.

I have three children I consider each of them a gift from God. That is truely what they are. I teach them right from wrong. I teach them to treat people with respect and love even if people aren't nice to them eventually those not so nice people will learn to be nice in time.

I was taught to judge no one......... only God judges.

4Him

06-20-2002, 02:25 PM

I'm glad to hear so many positive comments for those who have chosen to write. And there is truth in a lot of what has been said. However, the "Real" issue is somewhat being tip toed around. Bottom line - It's still not how good we feel we are or if we go or don't go to church or even how we treat other people. The "True Bible", says very clearly that the only way to gain eternal life with God, is to accept His Son Jesus as your personal Savior. Like I said earlier, He is a free gift to us. All that is necessary to be saved is - 1. Believe you are a sinner 2. Believe that Jesus is the only Son of God 3. Believe that Jesus died on the cross in your place so your sins may be forgiven. 4. Repent of your sins and ask Jesus to forgive them 5. Ask Jesus to dwell in your heart. That's it! All the other things that are questions in your mind about how to live, or treat others or going to church trying to be good enough will then start being answered as you study God's Holy Word. Not man's word such as the book of Mormon. God's Word is complete just as it is. Nothing needs to be added or taken away. And every circumstance that you will ever go through has already been gone through and the answers on how to deal with it are in His Word.

Am I sold out to Jesus? You betcha! Am I even a little close to being good. Nope. There is none good but One. Sinless Jesus. I'm just redeemed by His blood.

Have a great day and keep this post alive,
Billy

AnthonySS

06-20-2002, 03:23 PM

GLAD you brought that up BILLY,

There is really only one way to get your ticket to the Promiseland!

And As Billy put it...it is a simple truth outlined in the Bible that is is through the Son of Man (Jesus) ...not good works!!

Its way to hard on ya if you think you can just do it by being a nice guy or gal.

kathy

06-20-2002, 06:23 PM

All of what 4him put is 100% correct. Guess I didn't word mine properly. If I would have had more time I could have done a 2 pager on this subject maybe more.

The subject is a deep one anyway and to simply type about this for me at least is hard to put into words. When you discuss something like this person to person it is a bit easier in discussing........ at least it is for me.

I have enjoyed reading what all of you have had to say so far.:)

B.Mac

06-20-2002, 08:06 PM

Sounds like our religious upbringing were similar:D Personally, I was raised in a Irish/ Catholic/ Alcoholic/ Dysfunctional family. We put the Dys in dysfunction. Alcohol had claimed the life of evey male member of my family for all of my families recorded history through the early eighteen hundreds. I have the records. Every single one.....alcohol induced/ illnesses/ alcohol & violence related.
Except me.....

I was raised in a Catholic church and my family all went to church, usually half drunk from the night before. I went to Catholic school, religous instructions, confirmation, etc. I was taught that I could not reach God directly, that I could only communicate or hear from God through a priest. I was taught that I was not able to understand the Holy Bible (which at the time was written in Latin) and that only a priest could interpret scripture. I went to mass where I was taught to be quiet and stand still. I was given a booklet which contained the rituals that would be performed during that service. It contained pre-written verbal responses to be pre-written verbal ques from the priest. This booklet told me when to sit, when to kneel, when to stand, and when to say amen. Despite all of this I knew deep in my heart that God was real, but I felt that there was something wrong with me because I couldn't hear him where I was. So when I left home at sixteen I left the church too. My search for God pretty much ended at that point for the next ten or so years with the exception of an occassional Christmas or Easter visit.

I met God in a hospital. I woke up from a seven day coma with a strange old man, with his hand on my chest crying out loud and praying and speaking life into my soul and my body. I was in a coma as a result of traumatic liver failure caused by shooting cocaine and contracting hep. B. I was a pastey color of orange-yellow and my eyes were orange. My estranged dysfunctional family had already made my funeral arrangements as the doctors had told them that I would not live and if I did I would be a vegetable from encyphelitis (swelling of the brain). When I awoke with the strange old man crying and praying for me I felt an overwhelming presence of the Spirit of God. I had been awake for only a few minutes and the presence of God was so heavy in the room that I began to weep out loud and I don't think I stopped for three days. Just when I would begin to get a hold of myself a nurse would come to the door and ask me if I would like a glass of water and I would literally burst out crying out loud and weep for another three or four hours. I was not crying b/c of my condition, or b/c I felt sorry for myself, b/c to be honest w/ you by that time in my life, death was a welcomed option. I was crying b/c I had met the master and I had felt His presence in my life. I felt such an overwhelming, undescribable love that I could not contain it w/in myself. The thing that was most prevalent in my soul, most pronounced, was an overwhelming understanding of mercy. Cont. next post

B.Mac

06-20-2002, 08:22 PM

Well the old man that had been crying and praying for me came back to get me after ten days. He took me to his meager home (mobil home) where he allowed me to regain my strength and turn from orange yellow to a shade of blueish yellow.:eek: While I stayed w/ him, when I was able to move around he took me to a little pentecostal church in the mountains in upstate NY. Everybody in the church was black, except for the old man and I was blue-yellow. Everybody there began singing and clapping and praising and worshiping and playing instruments and from my perspective at the time making completes fools of themselves. I perceived these folks as being fanatical lunatics. THEN a couple of the old black ladies started doing the herky jerky, chicken walk, shaking, moaning, crying and just generally freaking me out. I didn't have a clue what was happening, I thought everybody there was possessed and I got scared.:eek:

About a week after that experience I was well enough to leave the old man's home and w/ in two weeks, while I was at about the banana yellow stage I was smoking crack and drinking scotch. God had reached out to me and I was not ready to surrender myself yet.

Thank you for reading this. Please understand that I am not bashing any particular faith. I am expressing my own personal experience, and I have no intentions of offending anyone. To be continued....
B.MAC :D

AnthonySS

06-20-2002, 10:45 PM

B.MAC...

...THANKS for Sharing BRO!!

That is an awesome story!!

Here too, I was raised in a CATHOLIC, churched family...

I tell you you that it is only by the grace of God that I was pulled out of a potentially early death.

Like B.Mac the Catholic chuch at least gave me the concept of GOD...but there had to be more. Like B.mac all the the traditions and rituals sort of left me empty...all the while God was calling me to seek him...not even really knowing how to begin.

So like B.Mac ..it tooks years of ill circumstance for JESUS to get my attention!!

What an awesome GOD he is..

"I was once lost and now I am found"..."He Saved a Wretch Like Me"

B.Leonard

06-21-2002, 10:16 AM

Catholicism is a false world religion.

The basic fallacy is that of justification. Traditional Catholicism is founded on a theory of "progressive justification", where justification is something that continues throughout the life of the believer after his baptism as an infant. The correct view of justification is that it is a declaration by God that the undeserving sinner is just in His sight. It is not something that can be earned even if over a lifetime.

Catholicism has many other fallacies that are contrary to word of God. Some of which are not fully understood by Catholics themselves. One very interesting subject is that of the "Immaculate Conception".
Most people believe this is in reference to Christ being sinless. It is not. It is in reference to Mary being sinless! This is an astounding contradiction to the word of God that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Purgatory, the Pope being "the Vicor of Christ on earth" and many other fallacies including the denial of "Sola Fide" (Faith Alone) destroy the Catholic church's foundation as a true church and make it nothing but another worldly institution keeping people from knowing the truth. If you think that was interesting, you should hear what the Muslims, Mormans, Jehovah Witnesses, Scientologists etc. etc. etc. believe :rolleyes: It's very interesting stuff !

It comes down to two sides: Belief in the unmerited grace of the finished and final work of Jesus Christ as propitiation for your sin OR in the religion of works that comprise all other "religions" (i.e. I can earn my salvation through some form of deeds even if good). Last but not least, if you do believe in the finished work of Christ, it's because He found you not the other way around. Therefore you love Him.

-BL

kathy

06-21-2002, 10:29 AM

You are so right B. Leonard!!!!!!!!! So very right!!!!!!!!!!!

B.Mac

06-21-2002, 02:33 PM

Very well said BL......

A note to Catholics......Please open your hearts & eyes
Please do not take offense.....I would be happy to back everything up w/ solid scripture if you WANT to hear the truth of God's word. We are not Catholic bashing we are revealing false teaching which the Bible sternly warns us about repeatedly........

B.MAC:D

LaveyT

06-21-2002, 04:01 PM

B.L. Very interesting thoughts,Im sorry but I think almost every Religion is just there spin on the words in the bible.Kathy my hats off to you for participating,it takes courage to state your what you belive (any one). Tolerance is the key,Stating that "this is the way it is" Closes the door to the learning about Christ for many pepole.Coming to belive is a process,If you are taught to see the miricles around you,you will belive.If you pray,then quiet your mind to listen for the answer your hope in a God turns to Faith in God turns to Trust in God.At least this is how it has worked for me.If you came about your Faith in a different way,Thats fine.I belive God uses the different "languges" or methods to speak to those that havent gotten the message in traditional ways.
As B.Mac is describing in his story,I am hearing that Surrender is the key! I can belive in Jesus, but if I dont pray for his guidence
and heed the answer,It is does not do much good to belive. If I belive an OMC SRX DAH would be the fastest prop on my boat, and I never install it,I will never go faster......
:rolleyes:

B.Leonard

06-21-2002, 04:31 PM

LaveyT -

If you want I'll prove to you that SRX is faster, by putting it on my boat :D :D

If you are a believer, you've been predestined before the beginning of time to believe. However, God not only has ordained the end He has also ordained the means. In other words he has ordained that you will come to him by the hearing of the preached word, the acknowledgement of your sin leading to repentance, believing and being baptized. Don't confuse the means as requirements! The requirement is that you believe, and that cannot be called a work if it is given to you as a gift.

Quite often the "means" also involves the pruning of your life to point where He wants you. The providence of God is infinite, keep that in mind, sometimes we don't understand how He works.

Sometimes this means taking you to the end of your "rope". Some believers never go through such a traumatic experience like B.Mac. That doesn't mean they are less a believer. An "experience" is not required. A pastor's son who grew up all his life around church and the word may never have such a remarkable testimony.

If you do have one like B.Mac's you should always share it with others to the Glory of God. :)

-BL

AnthonySS

06-22-2002, 08:29 PM

You Guys are all really inspiring me!!

I hope all of you will be attending the Rumble...I just get this feeling that we will be REALLY required there.

So please pray for me that I will be able to make it...and it would be just that much more encouraging if I knew some of my brothers were going to be there to!!

Let me know

My Father is still attending Catholic Mass and for the first time in many years...he finally said it is not what it is all cracked up to be.

At one time he always used to say the mealtime Grace at Family get-togethers...NOW he always asks me to do it....I think he is witrnessing something he is missing at his church...so please pray for God to use me in his Life!!

B.Leonard

06-22-2002, 10:46 PM

The Rumble is great because we all have a love for boats and outboards, sharing that with fellow believers makes it that much more fun!

Don't worry about your father too much, the salvation of a believer's close family has to be one of the biggest hopes he carries this side of Glory. Remember God lets the Catholic "church" exist and all the other false churches and cults for a reason. Sometimes a dark background makes the truth seems that much more brilliant. :)

-BL

B.Mac

06-23-2002, 07:49 AM

I believe first of all that ALL men (women) are born with an spiritually instinctual NEED to WORSHIP.
I believe this spiritual NEED is as strong or stronger than the physical NEED to reproduce.
If you took a group of people with absolutely NO/ ZERO religion & stuck 'em in the Jungle with no outside contact for fifty years.....you can be assured that when you went back in and observed them....they would have found/ created something, some how or somebody to WORSHIP. It is integral in mans' nature. That's why there are so many false religions. That's also why people are so easily decieved. We have an inherant screaming internal VOID to fill through WORSHIP. God put there & it will not go unsatisfied.
Today much of the world has chosen to throw off the restraints and accountability that comes with worshipping the one true God.
That requires a desire to please God, and to do so means to come into a "covenant relationship (contract) with Him. It requires a desire to not sin........I did'nt say it requires us not to sin......I said a DESIRE to please God and a DESIRE to not sin.
People who do not know Christ or have rejected Him fill this need in other ways. MANY WAYS.
Your gonna WORSHIP something.....I gaurantee it.
Who or what do you worship? Heres some examples......
Hollywood....Elvis.....Aliens.......Mohammed......Career.........Status
Cars.......Houses & Lands.......Money & Wealth......Sports & Sports Celebs.......Drugs & Alcohol.......Sexual Lust.......RELIGION......I SAY AGAIN ......RELIGION......oh, now please don't flame me on this one, just think about it for a second,.....HOT BOATS:eek:
Oh man lemme put my flame retardant suit on & get some extinguisher ready!!!! You wanna know who/ what you worship?
Look at your checkbook ledger. The word says "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matt 6:21) Oh man......
I'm runnin' fer cover see you guys later.:eek:

B.MAC:D

kathy

06-23-2002, 01:31 PM

at this time the state this world is in we all NEED to Pray! I don't care what religion anyone is I don't base how a person is by their religious beliefs....... As long as you have "God" in your life that is most important....

The world we are raising our children in right now is so scary.... We have people trying to harm us (terrorist) based on their beliefs....... they are acting as "God" or some type of a "God"..... no human has the powers of "GOD" no human has the right to take any one's life. How does anyone talk logic into the minds of so many twisted people........

We all need to unite as one some how....... I pray every day that some how this happens. I pray every day that our nation becomes strong enough to make a difference in the world.....

I want to live in peace......... I want this for my children ...... I want this for our world......

PKRBKR1

06-23-2002, 02:54 PM

I was raised a Christian, went to Church with the family every Sunday, and participated in youth group. I was married in the Church, but then kind of fell away from attending. I would like to think I remained a Christian during that time, simply by maintaining my spirituality. After a family member died in an accident, I became active again in the Church - and still go regularly, but I don't think I'm any more a Christian than I was when I didn't go to a structured worship service. The nicest thing I ever heard from someone was that they knew I was a Christian by the way I acted - I never "preached" - but they could tell by my behavior. What a compliment.

I don't belive in "blasting" any particular religion - even Islam and Judaism have their attributes. All religions should be respected - and any religion can have people who commit evil in the name of that religion.

Great Thread.

B.Mac

06-23-2002, 04:04 PM

Good point......Going to a "Church" doesn't make any of us any more a Christian than going to a Hotboat rally makes us a "Professional racer".
The "Church" is God's people....not a building, or a "service".
The Word does say however "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself: it must remain in the vine."
(John 15:4)
The "vine" is Christ or the "body of Christ" which is the Church today or the disciples of Christ today"
If I were to hang out only with worldly people, I would be affected by them, rather than they affected by Christ in me. Therefore I find it essential to have my roots deeply embedded in the moist soil of the "body" (the Church/ God's people)otherwise I will wither & dry up, eventually I will die (spiritually).

If someone knows you are a Christian by the way you are acting especially when you don't "preach", this is a direct result of abiding in the "vine". (Read John 15:4 above again) Because you cannot produce "fruit" without His presence. We can do good works......anybody can do this........but to produce fruit......we need to abide.

Blasting any religion is counterproductive. Christ entreated or wooed people....through love & acceptence. He did not "blast" the decieved but gently loved them where they were. He did however "blast" the religious leaders of his day for false & self serving doctrine.......not much has changed from that time ...heh?
Judaism or the Jew is God's first chosen people........but they rejected Christ........but the gentile/ "unbeliever" recieved him & were saved. There is a great movement today of Jews recieving Christ .......Messianic Jews.

Here's a tidbit.......Did you know narcotics (probably opium or weed) was widely used in Christ's day? Ezekial 8:17 "Look at them putting the branch to thier nose!"
Gonna break here before AOL drops me & I get tempted to start cussin' :eek:
B.MAC:D

LaveyT

06-23-2002, 06:50 PM

Im inspired by participating in this thread.Bruce,I had no idea you were a theologen (God forgives spelling blasfamy too).
Your reply was short and sweet,But I am going to re-read it a couple of times.I belive you have said that how you come to belive is not as importent as the end result (faith in Christ). I agree! I also belive that going to church, Babtism, and spreading the word Honors God.I guess this is why I feel it is so importent to try seek Gods will,and not ignore it.
The Sprituallity that I feel is Awsome! thanx B.Mac for the thread!

AnthonySS

06-23-2002, 07:10 PM

PKRBKR1...

YES what a compliment it would be to known as a Christian by our attitudes and our behaviours...

Thats right ...your no less a Christian today then yesterday...you can never loose your salvation!!

It certainly is not about condemning other religions. I live with it in my face everyday by most of my family following another religion. Last thing I would ever want to do is make myself feel above them.

I would rather just bear witness to them and keep inviting them to my church. Our church is just too cool. Its a real safe palce to find GOD. Heck they let a sinner like me in

Wouldn't be cool to do some worship at the RUMBLE. I will be bringin all my worship music so we can Worship!!:D

LaveyT

06-23-2002, 08:30 PM

Anthony,There is a pastor that does services before ODBA races. Allison771? Eric knows his E-Mail address,Cool stickers for the boats also,see ya dave

B.Leonard

06-23-2002, 09:13 PM

Kathy -

The problem is there is only one true God. That God can only be known through Jesus Christ who is God Himself.

This means the Muslim faith is a deception. the cult of Mormanism is a deception, the cult of the Jehovah Witnesses are a deception, Buddhism is a deception, Hinduism is a deception, the New Age movement is a deception ...on and on and on.

Don't feel you are bashing a group by merely stating the facts. Any group that does not recognize Jesus Christ as God is a cult. Catholicism recognizes Jesus Christ as God, however they fall short of many essential truths, so Catholicism is not a cult it is a "false world religion".

In protestant circles, there are certain truths that we must agree on to have fellowship together. The deity of Christ being foremost. A secondary issue would be for example, view on "end times" (pre/mid/post tribulation or pre/post/ah millenialism). We can disagree on these issues and still have fellowship.

We (believers) cannot have fellowship with someone who does not recognize the deity of Christ. That doean't mean we can't enjoy boating with 'em :D but their god will never be a believers God. These people are being deceived and it is not right to say "just pray to your god, whoever it may be". They will spend enternity is hell for their belief, and need to be told the truth.

I know B.Mac personaly and although we have differences in our Christian beliefs/denominations, we agree on the essential "primary" issues (diety of Christ, God the father, God the son God the Holy Spirit (trinity), Holiness of God, salvation by faith alone etc etc.) so he's a brother no doubt, (a brother with a slower boat but nonetheless a brother :D ).

I mention that because I want it known that we can have differences but only on secondary issues. Therefore there is nothing wrong with the many denominations in the protestant faith, and we can still have fellowship together.

LaveyT --

I studied theology for a long time on my own and under a very good teacher (my current pastor) I never pursued any formal degree. I love it, and love to discuss it. It's very interesting for a believer. Check out our website www.girs.com

-BL

WharfRat

06-23-2002, 10:23 PM

Hey Bruce,

Are you my long lost unknown brother ?!?!?!?

You're scaring me at the similar outlook on "religion"

btw, I had my wife read the thing about you going to Rumble 1 on the web site & she said DO IT, I see how much you want to go

PEACE

Scott

B.Mac

06-24-2002, 06:33 AM

Please Lord........Let me miraculously blow BL's doors off with my Checkmate?:eek: I need 300 HP for 5 Min Lord? :D Good points Bruce, I decided not to get into the predestination issue, so as to not appear to others to be contending over a non-essential truth.
I will say this though.......The Word says That God is the Alpha and the Omega.....the beginning and the end......time is not relevant to God. I would agree that God knows WHO will accept HIM and HOW that decision will affect thier lives. I do not believe that souls are predestined to accept or not accept God as determined by HIM in advance. First that would completely remove the gift of free will.....and would be like creating a pile on one side to be destroyd and a pile on the other side to be cherished. I do absolutely agree that HE KNOWS ahead of time though....
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

06-24-2002, 08:56 AM

WharfRat -

That is good news! See you there brother! You'll have a great time. Bring the wife too! Sounds like she just needs have her cheeks flappin in the wind on an 80mph+ boat for a while and she'll repent of trying to keep you from going! :D ;)

Predestination -

Absolutely! Predestination, it's a secondary issue . However the Bible is replete with predestination from cover to cover and the peace that comes from understanding it properly is priceless.

Knowing that I was found and saved from eternal hell. Not that there is some form of righteousness in myself that made me choose God. There was none and there still is none! The righteousness that I have in God's sight now is only from being IN Christ. His righteousness is covering me. Catholicism believes in a indwelt righteousness at baptism as an infant. This is completely wrong but it is what it would take for a fallen 100% sinner to choose God. There would have to some form of righteousness in the sinner for that to happen.

So from that we know that it is completely by Grace alone, through Faith alone made possible by the shed blood of Christ alone that we are saved.

Don't confuse this with hyper-predestination which states that God created some people to go to heaven and some to go to hell regardless. That's a fallacy and that is how most people perceive it.

True predestination is based on the premise that man would fall from the grace of God (garden of Eden). The choice that God made to grant His gift of faith to a select few is based on this premise. The reality and truth of it is that ALL mankind should spend eternity in hell. God would've been justified in doing that. It is only by the gracious choice of a sovereign God to save a select few, His chosen, that anyone is spared.

Great discussion, I hope it's as interesting to y'all as it is to me :D This is a discussion of Armenianism (man chooses) vs Calvinism (God chooses). The idea that "God looks ahead into time" is absurd and holds no ground logically. God is God, he doesn't have to look ahead, He knows everything already!

Ok kiddies ;) ;), your assignment is to read "Bondage of the Will" ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800753429/qid=1024925498/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/104-4089134-7763936 ) and be back here tonight for a full length dissertation! :D ;)

B.Mac -

On that 300X Merc are you praying or dreaming? Could it be that you just made the wrong choice for power? :D

-BL

B.Mac

06-24-2002, 10:14 AM

But there are a few right ones....Surrendering my life to Christ....
My wife Angela....
and Mercury over OMC :D (not quite as important however)
I'm glad you enlightened me on predestination, I agree with you.
I would not disagree with you after reading your home security thread!!:eek:

B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

06-24-2002, 10:47 AM

Reread the past post on this thread where I talk about God not only ordaining the end, but the means as well. We do make a choice! But only after God has chosen us first. Our choosing is His sovereign way that we will come to know Him.

In a way you could say our God is not only a jealous God but a picky God as well. He has a certain way that He wants us to come to Him. Hearing His word preached (the law), acknowledge your sin, repent, believe Christ is your savior (the gospel), be baptized.

Note: Hearing the law first is essential. This is commonly skipped in contemporary Christianity. How can you need a savior if you don't know why you need saved in the first place!
The reason you need a savior is because you're a sinner and were born a sinner inheriting Adam's sin as well! You're going to straight to hell outside of the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

Baptism is not a requirement to salvation, the requirement is that you believe. If you believe, the repentance and baptism will fall into place.

-BL

Scott

06-25-2002, 09:44 AM

Thank you to those participants! Coincidence, predestination, fate? that like minds are eventually drawn together.

AnthonySS

06-25-2002, 12:27 PM

Yes THANKS to all who participate this is great.

Guys and Gals I would love to start talking about being Christian and how it relates to the common things we share in common in the world.

Like:

Marriage, Kids, Money, Sex, lifestyle, Music, Boats etc.

I think there is a misconception that Christians are not allowed to enjoy the things listed above.

I would like to hear Bl's and B.Mac's views on this and I will try and reinforce!!

kathy

06-25-2002, 12:53 PM

I believe you can have all the things you listed above...... it is whether or not you abuse what you have.......

B.Leonard

06-25-2002, 01:02 PM

Ok I'll try and be brief;

Marriage - That's a good thing (to one spouse :rolleyes: ) but not for everyone.

Kids - The purpose of life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. (Westminster Catechism q. #1 :D ) No better way to glorify God than to pass life on through kids.

Money - "The love of it..." causes a lot of problems :D ... and there never seems to be enough of it (personal testimony :D )

Sex - Within the confines of marriage, anything goes :eek: :D

Lifestyle - Turn or burn is as simple as I can put it. :) With regards to the way most people live, any lifestyle that glorifies God is good (i.e. drunkeness doesn't glorify God and many other pitfalls).

Music - Does it Glorify God? Enjoy it. For you musicians out there, don't forget where your gift came from!

Keep in mind your life is to be lived to the Glory of your Father when you are a Christian (God). This is just a general outline, you could go into much greater detail on this subject. Feel free to ask!

-BL

PS Boats! How could I forget.. :rolleyes:

As long as it has OMC power on the back... you will accell over all things :D ;)

AnthonySS

06-25-2002, 01:19 PM

Food,

Smokes

Alcohol,

I always get a kick out of the story our pastor tells when he is talking to someone that smokes and they ask what he does for a living and he says..

" I am a Pastor at a Church"

the other person immediately puts out their smoke:D.

He Just chuckles at them...!

again God created all this too...its not a bad thing to enjoy a good smoke, eats or drink!

"All FOOD is good ...its just not good for ALL Peolpe" (from the bible)

AnthonySS

06-25-2002, 01:29 PM

...then to burn with Desire!! (from the bible)

I don't know about the rest of you guys...but that sums it up for me.

Since I have become Christian...I have Enjoyed the "Act of Marriage" (Sex) more then ever. I think my wife does too:) As a couple you sure mature a lot more in this area when you are Christian.

Unfortunatley the world has distorted it and I will be the first to admit I still struugle with that temptsaion the world puts in front of me!!

Again God invented this and sure procreation is part of it, but that does not mean you cannot just have sex for pleasure with your spouse.

Song of Slomon depicts a very vivid picture of sex in the bible.

My fav:D

I always tell my wife:

"I don't need sex everyday...every other day is fine with me":D

kathy

06-25-2002, 01:49 PM

Unfortunatley the world has distorted it and I will be the first to admit I still struugle with that temptsaion the world puts in front of me!!

I don't know if I should reply on this or not but I have a question...... and this seems to be a thread to ask.

What you put there..... that is part of being human I think it is how a person acts upon what temps them....... correct?

AnthonySS

06-25-2002, 02:18 PM

..or better yet try avoid those situations that can be tempting all together

...when you go to the beach...bring your wife and kids!

...away on business...tuff one!

...stick to "boat only" at the magazine rack

..avoid being on the internet to late and tired at nite

You are write tho it is part of our human weakness..

Some days I leave the house and I just have to pray for that spiritual armor of protection...cause even the office environment can be a real battle ground for temptation!

Any other insight guys!!

B.Leonard

06-25-2002, 02:19 PM

Kathy, this might help you...

A Christian is a sinner that is justified in the sight of God. He still sins and his fallen flesh is a "beach head" for sin.

It is susceptible to all kinds of temptations and everyone has their weak points and strong points. What those are is between you and God. No need for a mediator (ie Catholic priest).

All your life as a Christian will be a conflict between your fallen flesh and the born-again Spirit that is within you. Death is merely a dropping off of your fallen flesh.

Your flesh is prone to habits, gluttony (of any kind), visual temptation, sloth (laziness) etc. just like it's prone to getting a cold or a cut. Therefore, you need to watch out for your flesh. This does not mean it needs to be completely isolated from these temptations although it might be necessary to break certain habits. In other words isolationism is not the answer to living a Godly life.

There is the "weaker brother" issue that I must throw in. Even though a particular sin may be your strong point, if you're around a person in which that may be their weak point. You should avoid it as well. Boy that's condensing and awful lot in one sentence! If you only knew! :rolleyes:

If anyone is wondering why I'm not using scripture references it's for brevity sake not that I couldn't back up what I'm saying :D

-BL

kathy

06-25-2002, 02:25 PM

Bruce..........

There is the "weaker brother" issue that I must throw in. Even though a particular sin may be your strong point, if you're around a person in which that may be their weak point. You should avoid it as well. Boy that's condensing and awful lot in one sentence! If you only knew!

I do know! I don't need explaining on that one....... I wanted to hear your responses to my question...... Just to make sure my thinking is correct!:) Not that I didn't think it wasn't correct what I thought......... make sense

I look forward to meeting you and your families at the Rumble!

4Him

06-25-2002, 03:18 PM

I've been out of touch for the past couple of days and haven't followed this thread, but have read and now caught up. Glad to see it's still a goin'. Good stuff. I don't believe in predestination either. Like one said, God chose us first and He knows who will and who won't accept His Son Jesus, but He gives us that free will to choose. I don't fully understand how this all works, but that's why God is God and man is man. We'll never understand everything He does, unless He reveals it to us. That's where faith and trust come in.
As far as temptation....well there's not one that's not tempted in some fashion. Even Jesus was tempted, but He did not yeild to the temptation. We unfortunately do (speaking about myself) do many times. But the Bible says that a temptation will not be placed before us that He does not provide us a way of not yeilding to it.
Remember, the power that can carry us through life in general, is the same power that raised Jesus Christ from the grave!!!! There is no great power than that of God.
Thanks to all who are sharing. I am enjoying all the lessons being taught here.
Billy

2Blade

06-26-2002, 12:43 PM

Great discussion and personal testimonies! I have been encouraged. The older I get the more I realize just how much of a "jar of clay" I really am. I ponder how God could put His treasure of grace in such a frail and earthen vessel. Jesus is the glue that holds me together much like a clay planting pot that has been dropped and broken. I only wish I could quit breaking myself. 4Him, I've wondered for a long time about your call sign. It has always reminded me of the singing group 4Him.:) Reid.

AnthonySS

06-26-2002, 12:51 PM

..Great comments and glad you have spoken out!!!

Yes I first approached 4HIM based on the same thoughts as you.

Not the same band ...but non the less...he is a singer!!!

2Blade

06-26-2002, 01:11 PM

I stood up in my boat lifted my open arms up to the Sky and said “I want to do this for You!” ...when you said that I got the chills. Here lately, my favorite thing is to put in a Michael W. Smith or Rich Mullins cd while I'm at the lake and just raise my hand to Gods beautiful sky. Lately, I have been grappling and trying to wrap my mind around the thought of how I can live up to the level of Gods blessings in my life...not earn His blessing or grace, but just how can I respond properly to His tremendous blessing and grace. BTW, a good $13.00 to spend is on the book The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning.
I was raised Church of Christ, but now attend a progressive baptist congregation.
B.Mac...praise God.
B. Leonard, I would love to hear your thoughts sometime about the "end times" and about other mind bending topics relating to the Good Lord.
I know I'll have more important things to do in heaven than fiddling with boats, but I hope there is a little spot in eternity where I can polish a prop, wrench around a little bit, and then floor it. Thanks, Reid.

B.Leonard

06-26-2002, 01:16 PM

As always you learn more from being tested than any other time... :D (interesting, they want to remove testing from public schools)

If God is so loving why are people suffering in the world?

Does God love everybody?

For whom did Christ die?

Does God hear all prayers?

Is Mother Teresa in heaven?

Is Jeffery Dahmer in heaven?

Who do the Mormans believe Christ was?

Who do the Muslims believe Christ was?

How many Christ's are there anyway?

If God can do everything, why can't He create a rock so big He couldn't move it?

The answers are both short and long, subjective and objective. Just have fun with it since there seems to be an interest out there.

-BL

AnthonySS

06-26-2002, 02:06 PM

Reid...

Yes that was "chilling" moment that day for all involved...

Ever since that day I make sure I am "right" with God before heading out.

After all Jesus Spent a lot of time in a boat.

THANKS for the musical tips

Now onto Bruce's test!!

B.Leonard

06-26-2002, 02:22 PM

I'm sure we'll be talking about Eschatology shortly :D

How's the 21' Lib!?! Still coveting that boat in a big way :D

-BL

Scott

06-27-2002, 05:41 AM

stand up and keep the will of ONE individual from beeing forced upon the MANY?

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ONE NATION UNDER GOD INDIVISIBAL WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL

I just can not believe that ONE individual can ram his will down the throats of the rest of us. Something is wrong. Mr.Newdauer (if I have misspelled your name, I'm not terribly sorry) you have received your fifteen minutes of shame, excuse me, fame. Now I can only pray that the Supreme Court is made up of enough God fearing judges to return, to our schools the pledge that has served this country well for over 200 years. The Supreme court, the House of Representatives and Congress open every session with this pledge.

Finally, shame to you 9th. circuit court, I thank GOD that I do not reside in the area of this country under which you have influence. You have done this country a great disservice with your ruling and it is my hope that each of you that voted AGAINST GOD, AND THE BALANCE OF THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY will be quickly replaced. I can barely contain my disdain for this ruling. This is a sad day!

If I am not mistaken, it is also Mr. N's intent to try to have the words "In God We Trust" removed from the currency of this country.

2Blade

06-27-2002, 10:52 AM

right there with you! I worry about the future of our great nation and the world in which my children and grandkids will live. I have always been concerned about how our society yields to the vocal minority instead of the silent majority. Now, with the ridiculous actions of the 9th circuit, we have to stoop to a new even lower common denominator.:mad:

B.Leonard

06-27-2002, 12:18 PM

I wouldn't worry too much about that. The pledge isn't going anywhere. That's just some liberal judge trying to make a statement. It will be thrown back big time.

-BL

WharfRat

06-27-2002, 12:52 PM

Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that about the pledge:mad:

I hope you're right, Bruce

B.Leonard

06-27-2002, 12:56 PM

Let me restate that...

Some tree-hugging, granola chewing, pinko-commie, goverment knows what's best for you and your family judge. :mad:

Ahhh that's better :D

-BL

kathy

06-27-2002, 01:01 PM

anyone can do with this issue! Though having faith is what this is about in a round about way......

If they do this it will only lead to more and more issues where this term is used....... and where this term is printed or shall I say the word GOD.....

People........AMERICANS need to refocus on what the hell this nation is going through right now.......... I feel for George Bush........ and I know this has been brougt on by the way our country has been run..... that man has a tough tough job. Like him or not........ everyone needs to support him ....... We are talking about our lives and our freedom!!!!!!!!!

JIMK

06-27-2002, 01:32 PM

anthonyss, awesome story,you hear alot of them but this one hit close to home,see i lost both parents to cancer,my mother when i was 7 and my father when i was 22 so i can relate.after my mother passed we as a family stopped going to church except for holidays. so it was a long time before i returned.my wife now turned to god while drinking and that is what saved us so we could be together. being from minnesota the southern baptist thing was extreme for me.the church my wife attends i really can't relate to and thepreacher is more or less " do what we do " or you don't fit in. but one night i went to a singing and the youngest boy did a solo. that feeling you described and i always heard about hit me after that song.i could not move! after service a man was talking to me and i didn't even know it,i can't describe it but "peace" is what i felt. i drove home but i probably should not have i told my wife i could not drive! it was so overwelming i broke down and cried thinking of my mother and father. i sat in the car after we got home for 20 minutes trying to get myself together but it was releiving to say the least. i know my parents have been with me all along,i have had some close calls in my life. your story is so compelling i want to thank you for that. i beleive i will give it another try in church and just not worry about whether i am "accepted" or not. Jim King

B.Leonard

06-27-2002, 02:02 PM

Careful...

Don't base your faith upon a feeling. No matter how strong.

Your faith should be based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Feelings come and go and consciences can be misleading.

This is one of the reasons for Baptism and the Lord's Supper (or Comunion), they are concrete symbols that we can fall back on to remind us of who we are and the price that has been paid for us when our feelings may have waned since our conversion.

-BL

PKRBKR1

06-28-2002, 09:03 PM

You know, there is only ONE Judge - How a common man sitting on the Bench in the Western District of the US can "judge" whether our children can say the Pledge of Allegiance is beyond me. Any Christian knows we will all be judged by The Lord God Almighty, and the common man making that ruling is among those to be judged.

I'm originally from Madison Wisconsin - they too banned the Pledge of Allegiance from the schools, but had so much criticism from irate residents that they had to lift the ban. They even had tried a recall election of the school board members that pushed for the ban. That's one reason we moved out of Madison and into "God's country". There's no way I'd ever move back.

I have to agree that one of the most inspiring times is when I'm able to go out on the lake early in the morning (during the week when there's not 1,000's of boats and partiers) and listen to nature and commune with God. What a way to start a day.

AnthonySS

07-03-2002, 07:13 AM

Sorry Folks I have been away since last Friday and I am just catching up!!

JIM K...

Thanks for the feedback...your little testimony is also very inspiring !!!

Its not real easy to find the right church, so I would encourage you to find a Church that is a safe place for you to find God and not some folk that want you to model your life with thiers!! ...Been There!! But like you said..."give it another try"

PKRB....

sounds like we enjoy a lot of the commom joys in our world...our family has a goal to move to the country too, in the near future

B.Mac

07-05-2002, 06:15 AM

FRIDAY JULY 5, 2002 7A.M.

SO MANY are "empty" within. A strange, painful gnawing vacuum persists in the depths of thier person. This inner "aloneness" is ever present. Few know or realize it is a profound yearning for God himself. In His wondorous design He intended us for His own companionship. Nor are we ever complete until we find our fulfillment in him as our constant companion.

Instead, most people recoil in fear from this inner aloneness. They endeavor to fill this inner vacuum with fun, gaiety, games, study, relationships, work, or other activities of all sorts. In desperation they may even resort to sound, music, drugs, alcohol or sexual adventures. All are an escape from thier selves-in-solitude.
Still they are never free from fear.

Ironically, it is within this inner stillness that our father can speak to us most clearly. It is there alone with Him that he becomes real to our inner intuition of spirit. It is there we begin to "see" him most acutely with the perception of our awakened conscience in response to his Word. There we sense and know his presence.
He interacts with us in our deepening conviction through his wondorous Word and his gracious spirit.

For the man or woman who comes to know and love God as father, these times of solitude are the most exquisite in all life.
These times are anticipated eagerly; relished with enthusiasim;
In a word, these times are highlights of life. For nothing else REALLY MATTERS.

Ecclesiastes 5:1-7 Psalms 42:1 Psalms 63:1-11

B.MAC:D

LaveyT

07-05-2002, 10:57 AM

Watch out, That is the TRUTH! When I hear the truth I can also feel it within myself.Awsome stuff,and with some Humility also.
B.Mac thank you.Dave:)

P man

07-11-2002, 07:07 PM

I would just like to say that I very much enjoy reading all of your insitful comments. Anthony I found your story very inspiring. Having lost my sister to cancer, I know how important it is to have Christ along for the ride. Im 18 and was raised a christian but find it a struggle sometimes to stay focused with all of lifes distractions, but reading your story was another good kick in pant and I thank you for it.

B.Leonard

07-11-2002, 08:13 PM

Dude just remember it's not the perfection of your life, it's the direction of your life. Trust in the finished work of Christ. He lived the perfect life that you could never live.

A believer in the eyes of God is perfect in His sight because God sees Christ's righteousness not your's, you don't have any in and of yourself. The perfect righteousness of Christ covers the believer. That's one of the reasons why we say we are "in" Christ.

-BL

AnthonySS

07-12-2002, 07:20 AM

GLAD you were inspired by my truth!! I tto have to read it once and a while to get me straight again!!

Hey buddy your not alone....distractions is putting it mildly...we all struggle from the same as believers.

Lets hook up sometime, I live in AJAX so we are practically neighbors!!!

You can email me at:

anthony_santocono@kawneer.com

P man

07-18-2002, 01:01 AM

for sure!

Ive been trying to get out to some of the pbcc events but the lack of money and a real boat seem to get in the way.

B.Mac

07-18-2002, 07:20 AM

You got that problem too?
B.MAC:D

chris_lacey

07-18-2002, 10:10 AM

I have just started using this board and was pleasantly surprised to se so many Christians actively testifying. Anthony SS- I read in one of the earlier threads that you were baptised in Rice Lake. I think I've met you before. Did you used to have a Hydrostream Vision? I have been on Rice Lake for 20 yrs and currently have a V-King. My wife and I attend St. Andrews Presbyterian in Hastings when we are at the trailer. Anyway, that's a side track, mostly just wanted to say Praise the Lord that I found a place with Christian boaters.

AnthonySS

07-18-2002, 10:48 AM

....of course I remember you...

You and Kurt were some of the first Streamers I met on the lake back in the mid 80's.

Our buddy Wayne ended up with the Vision and and now its gone to Montreal!!

Anyway we are between boats right now...which means boatless (just sold the STV 2 months back).

We should hook up sometime...are you still at Maida Ville(?) Maybe meet at church even?

YES there are quite a few of us Hi-perf Christian Boaters here. So far alone we got about 3 from Ontario!!!

Pic of the family and me at the Lake

chris_lacey

07-18-2002, 11:04 AM

Good memory! I'm not at Maida Vale anymore, I've moved across the lake to Birdsall Beach. My new wife ahs 2 young kids so there's more for them to do at the bigger park. I often still spend Saturday afternoons over at Sandy Beach.
I'd love to hook up sometime.... email me direct and I'll give you my cell number and we'll arrange it. Talk to ya soon.

AnthonySS

07-18-2002, 11:10 AM

...cool,

hook up with my buddy Al Cormier (he works with me) Sometime while you are there. Tell him about Jesus...(he kind of looks like him:))

Al has 3 small kids (2 are twins) and they are all under age 8. He is new to the Park this year?

email me at:

anthony_santocono@kawneer.com

and I'll send you my contact info too

We are still on the South Shore across from Whites Is Sand Bar (Fox Point)

chris_lacey

07-18-2002, 11:14 AM

Al is my neighbour 2 trailers down!!! My wifes kids play with the twins (Kevin and Kyle) all the time. Talk to ya soon,

P man

07-18-2002, 02:36 PM

ya apparently my enginless 8" hydro wont keep up with the streams and what not but... I question that

B.Mac

07-18-2002, 04:26 PM

Go to Wally World & pick up a good 12 V trollin' mota that's almost enough ta get yer 'Stream up on plane!!! Hope ya get yer Mota fixed......is it a black one i hope? It's ok if it's not......we'll wait up fer ya:eek: P.S. What's wrong w/ yer mota?
B.MAC:D

P man

07-18-2002, 04:54 PM

haahaha glad you asked
I bought a 15 johnson (sorry it was white) off my neighbor
and fixed it up. When the May 24th weekend finally rolled around I brought it up to the cottage and introduced it to my hydro. It ran great for the first 45 minutes or so untill I managed to rip it of the transom. I caught a little to much air under the boat it broke one of the clamps as it hit the water again. The real sad part is.. that the mud on the bottom of the lake was so deep it made finding the thing impossible.

B.Mac

07-31-2002, 06:22 AM

Claiming to be wise, we become fools; we exchange the truth of God for a lie and worship and serve the created things (our systems, principles and formulas) rather than the Creator- who is forever praised. Amen (Romans 1:22-25);)

Lord.....Let your hand of protection be upon all those heading to the RuMble. Let all that attend have a wonderful and safe time. Bring 'em all home unscathed physically, spirtitually and mechanically. I pray that someone from S&F might come to accept and know you personally this week.
Amen :D

Oh yeh Lord.........A special prayer fer 'ol BL's OMC Let him beat a Merc just this once:D ;) :p

B.MAC:D

Take it easy on the juice guys;)

sleekin

08-06-2002, 02:28 PM

Great stuff guys! B.Mac, you rock dude. I was searching for info on the 2-cycle ban in the National Parks and came across these threads.

I agree that Christianity is not religion. It was the religious leaders who had Jesus put to death. Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Religion is man made. It tells people they need to earn their way to heaven. By being good or by doing good deeds or by sending them your money.

Christianity is God made. Christianity tells us Jesus did all the work by dying on the cross for our sins – if we except and believe that he died and rose again for us, we will live with Him forever in heaven. That's it. If we refuse to except this we will live forever in torment in hell. God has given us the choice…of course, He wants us to choose Him.

Christians make mistakes just like anyone else. Some Christians may have one to many drinks, some may tell lies and some like fast boats a little too much. God only warns us about doing some of these things because they can destroy us or the people around us. On our death bed all of these things are easier to see as unimportant. Nobody ever said, man I wish I could have gotten that SVS system on my boat before I die. They always say, man I wish I would have spent more time with my kids or family. These are the submerged rocks (nice boater tie-in ha ha) in life that God is trying to warn us about.

Fortunately, God said He will give me the strength to live life as an example of Him. People out there will look at my life as a Christian and judge it to see if Jesus is real. My life may be the only Bible some will ever read. I need to take responsibility for that and work toward being MORE LIKE JESUS.

Some say well I'm a good person why do I have to go to church or read the Bible. You don't have to go to church or read the Bible to go to heaven if you are a believer. But what is belief. If I believe in something I will want to know more about it. That’s what Christians do. They love Jesus and want to know more about Him. They read the Bible to learn why we are here. What is life about. Important stuff don’t you think. They go to church to have fellowship with others who love Him. To share how Jesus has worked in our lives that week. Just like if a person says, Man I love to modify outboards, they will want to read Scream and Fly and if he knows someone else who modifies outboards, he will drive to their house on Saturday–even if it blows the whole day–to share ideas and learn more about squeezing out another .5hp.

Christians tell others about Jesus beacause God begins to give them love for others. They want to share what Jesus has done for them. They now have the answers the Bible gives to why we are here on earth and where we will go when we die. They DO NOT want the people around them to spend eternity in hell. Just as if you new a way to end cancer. Wouldn’t you want to share that with loved ones.

Thanks for letting me know there are other boaters out there who love Jesusl. God Bless you guys.

AnthonySS

08-06-2002, 02:49 PM

X-cellent post Bro....

Thanks for keeping this thread going.

Man a couple weekends ago...my close boating freinds asked me what religion I was...well boy did that ever open the door...and it always starts ... "Its not Religion!!"

Anyway...they started asking lots of questions like...

"My kids are asking me...what happens to the babies that die that are not baptised...do they go to Heaven?"

My buddy says ...I got this big hole ....why am I not happy, I got a great wife and kids, great business, fast boat etc....I think I need to know more about God...and he starts asking me questions.

WOW...it was real awesome...

so again great post and I like the way you identified fast boat stuff in your post.

GREAT prayer to B.MAC...I believe it was answered

B.Leonard

08-06-2002, 03:30 PM

Without being lengthy... its hard but I'll try to be brief :D This very subject came to mind at the Rumble seeing these kids having such a good time, yet knowing their condition.

Baptism has never been a prerequisite or some sort of requirement to salvation. All that is required is that you believe. Catholicism does and it is WRONG. Then they introduce the fallacy of purgatory to cover up the inconsistencies.

Do babies believe? Do they have the ability to believe?

No. Belief requires a degree of understanding/knowledge.

Then there is an age of "accountability"? Can't find that in the bible either.

So then what? All babies that die go to hell? Absurd.

All we can say is that God saves His elect. Once again the doctrine (teaching) of election arises.

Believers do have a promise when they are baptized that extends to them and "their family" (Acts 16:31). As believers we trust in those promises that our children are in the hands of God.

Once again God not only ordains the end but He ordains the means. My children will come to believe by His means, by His time table not mine. In the mean time I trust in His promise.

-BL

PS… by the way, the only difference between those kids and us is just 50, 60, 70 years if we're lucky? That's barely a blink of an eye in the big picture. People need to concentrate more on the condition of their own souls, instead of thinking that being shorted 50 years of this life is some kind of travesty. Eternity is much longer, and it's just a matter of where you're gonna spend it. When I see this world sometimes I feel glad they don't have to endure it. But that is wrong as well. Life is to be lived to the Glory of God and every moment cherished. So it is very much a travesty but should remind us of the big picture as well.

B.Mac

08-07-2002, 07:36 AM

Good points BL......:D
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them (the eleven disciples after his ressurection) and said "All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Baptism is simply an outwardly demonstration of an inwardly commitment.
It is a declaration by the believer of the surrendering of ones will or a "dying" or putting to death the compulsion to act upon the desires of the flesh. It is a dedication of ones body, mind and Spirit to the Will of God. It is a washing away of the "old life/ self" and a re-birth into the Kingdom of God. The significance of water baptism is one of transformation from death to life, complete repentance (a turning away from sin) and a new determination to live an upright life through the Power of the Holy Spirit or the presence of God in our lives. The Word does not say that baptism is a requirement for salvation, but baptism is a prerequisite for the "infilling" of the Holy Spirit, which is the only power that can enable a man to resist his weaknesses and temptations. A man can make promises all he wants, but without that power, which comes from the dedication of ones self through baptism, it is impossible to walk away from sin.

Jesus Christ himself was baptized, and the Word is clear that it was then.......at His baptism that he was filled with this Power that enabled him to begin His ministry, and fulfill the Will of the Father.

Please read these scriptures.......Acts 2:32-33 Acts 2:38-41
Romans 6:1-14

Acts 16:30 He then brought them out and said " Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved- you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed thier wounds; THEN IMMEDIATLEY HE AND ALL HIS FAMILY WERE BAPTIZED.

Is Baptism a requirement for salvation?
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Should we be baptized? If Christ was baptized in water, and recieved the Holy Spirit on the spot, which is THE POWER that enables us to walk it out......then GANGWAY........LOOKOUT......I'M COMIN' THROUGH AND I'M JUMPIN' IN!!!!:D :D :D
B.MAC:D

gaineso

08-08-2002, 05:15 PM

I haven't read all the posts in this thread.

I am a recovering alcoholic, sober today through the help of a kind and loving God.

I realize that's quite a statement. Personal experience. I need help, not just with drinking but anything in life, "Hey Pal, a little help here".

The problem is not necessaily solved. However, my attitude towards whatever the problem is changes. I can see a solution, or even more important, put whatever it is into true perspective.

There have been a few times when there was some type of "Coincidence". MRI on my back. The pain from laying still was awful. MRI sounded like the inside of a 12V-92TA. "God, a little help please" and they woke me up when the test was over. Other icidents.

The most fabulous things though, are on the St. Johns in late Spring and early Summer. Hundreds, if not thousands of Osprey nesting in the channel markers. Baby Osprey being fed. Life renewing. I can't believe that all of that is totally random, unguided coincidence.

There is a guiding force somewhere.

LaveyT

08-08-2002, 06:34 PM

Just keep coming back!;)

B.Mac

08-08-2002, 07:45 PM

The fundamental theory of evolution rests upon the hypothesis that given certain components/ elements (H2O,CO2,N,O,Na, Mg, etc. etc) together with enough time (millions of years), that these elements (where did the elements come from?) will eventually spontaneously form life. Then, over the course of another couple million years this organism develops or "evolves" into life as we know it today. BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:D:p
These are professional, highly educated scientists that formed these theories. BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:D :p

So in other words......the next time I need to rebuild my Merc, I'll just order all the elements/ components from Rickracer, put 'em all in an airplane......and if I fly high enough, I can kick all the elements (pistons, rings, gaskets, bearings etc.) out the door and if given enough "time" .............I can expect them to assemble themselves into a firebreathing 300 HP (evolution) powerhead I can drop on my 'Mate and whip BL's cromagnon tunnelhull:eek:

All I know is....... if this is the best explanation our leading intellectuals can come up with to explain life.......
Thank God for God.

Isaiah 44:24-25
"This is what the Lord says- your redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense..........."

I believe in the big bang theory.......God said it and BANG!!!!
There it is..........:D

B.MAC:D

gainso.......I was a stone cold alcoholic for fifteen years and an intravenous cocaine addict/ crackhead/ dirtball whoremonger for
a good part of those years. After years of struggling to find sobriety through psychology, pharmocology, 12 step "self- help" (If I coulda helped myself I woulda done it a long time ago),
in-patient, outpatient, hospitalizations, jails, mental institutions, hypnosis, accupuncture and everything else BUT CHRIST.......
One day I said to myself.......I'm not going to live this way anymore....BUT.... I don't want to be one of those "Jesusfreaks" 'cause thier life must be boring.......can't do nothin' I said to myself. (Can't chase women, manipulate, conive, lie steal etc.). FINALLY, I realized I needed help that no man or group of men or any amount of education could overcome.........I needed God in my life.
I finally completely surrendered to Christ eleven years ago and was instantly delivered and set free from substance abuse. Sexual sin took another year or so, and every year since keeps getting better.
Why didn't somebody tell me the truth when I was a child?
I could have avoided alot of misery.......
Your'e on to something gaineso:D keep seeking my friend
Respectfully
B.MAC :D

AnthonySS

08-09-2002, 11:27 AM

AMEN...B.Mac!!

2Blade

08-12-2002, 08:44 AM

and am encouraged by all of your thoughts...its refreshing!
Here lately, I have been intrigued and spurred to greater thoughts by the Psalms. I have really been trying to focus on this passage for the last few days...Psalms 91:1 "He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High, will rest in the shadow of the Almightly." God amazes me!

B.Leonard

08-13-2002, 02:13 PM

"The cedars of Lebanon which He hath planted." --Psalm 104:16

Lebanon's cedars are emblematic of the Christian, in that they owe their planting entirely to the Lord. This is quite true of every child of God. He is not man-planted, nor self-planted, but God-planted. The mysterious hand of the divine Spirit dropped the living seed into a heart which He had Himself prepared for its reception. Every true heir of heaven owns the great Husbandman as his planter.

Moreover, the cedars of Lebanon are not dependent upon man for their watering; they stand on the lofty rock, unmoistened by human irrigation; and yet our heavenly Father supplieth them. Thus it is with the Christian who has learned to live by faith. He is independent of man, even in temporal things; for his continued maintenance he looks to the Lord his God, and to Him alone. The dew of heaven is his portion, and the God of heaven is his fountain. Again, the cedars of Lebanon are not protected by any mortal power. They owe nothing to man for their preservation from stormy wind and tempest. They are God's trees, kept and preserved by Him, and by Him alone. It is precisely the same with the Christian. He is not a hot-house plant, sheltered from temptation; he stands in the most exposed position; he has no shelter, no protection, except this, that the broad wings of the eternal God always cover the cedars which He Himself has planted. Like cedars, believers are full of sap having vitality enough to be ever green, even amid winter's snows.

Lastly, the flourishin and majestic condition of the cedar is to the praise of God only. The Lord, even the Lord alone hath been everything unto the cedars, and, therefore David very sweetly puts it in one of the psalms, "Praise ye the Lord, fruitful trees and all cedars." In the believer there is nothing that can magnify man; he is planted, nourished, and protected by the Lord's own hand, and to Him let all the glory be ascribed. -- C. H. Spurgeon

-BL :)

2Blade

08-13-2002, 09:01 PM

B.Mac

08-16-2002, 05:28 AM

Better to live on the corner of the roof
than share a house with a quarrelsome wife. :eek:
King Solomon (Prov 21:9)

B.Mac

08-16-2002, 05:52 AM

WHAT is the highest hope of a man who does not have Christ?
Most men will never see thier name in the newspaper. If you were a really great man- someone of national reputation- what would be the most you might expect from history? At the very best, if you were a giant in your time, the most you could expect would be a couple paragraphs in the World Book Encyclopedia....

A man's ultimate desire is for immortality. "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men" (Ecclesiates 3:11). That's part of what it means when we say we want to be significant. We want something to "survive" us. In our search for immortality, how do we live on? Is it in our accomplishments, our legasy to our children, or a couple of paragraphs in an encyclopedia? Some wealthy men finance hospital wings and have university buildings named for them to achieve a measure of immortality.

How we decide to answer the next questions, "Who am I" and "Why do I exist?" is a choice between two time lines: One that's eighty years long and one that lasts forever.

If we do not ultimetly find our significance in Christ, then we will not survive the threshold between this world and the next. Our highest hopes will come to a screaching halt. It would be better if we had never been born.

Patrick Morley

Ecclesiates 3:9-22
Jeremiah 9:23-24
Philippians 3:7-11
B.MAC:D

AnthonySS

08-16-2002, 07:05 AM

THANKS B.Mac...that was a good reading to start my day. Almost like a daily devotional!!

Northern JESUS Freak

B.Leonard

08-16-2002, 09:30 AM

If we do not ultimetly find our significance in Christ, then we will not survive the threshold between this world and the next. Blah blah blah blah! ;) That sounds so wishy-washy to me.

It's impossible for unbelievers to find Christ when Christ (God) Himself has blinded their eyes so they cannot find Him.

If an unbeliever does find Christ it's because Christ opened his eyes to the truth. That quote is so weak! Every soul that God opens his eyes to the Truth will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. There is no in between. "I will loose none of all the Father has given Me" John 6:39

What's the highest hope of a man who does not have Christ? That's an easy one... He who dies with the most toys wins! LOL!! ;) ;)

-BL

B.Mac

08-16-2002, 10:15 AM

Keep this up BL and I....I....I won't let ya into heaven!!!:D ;) :p
B.MAC:D
I'll leave it alone.......:D

B.Leonard

08-16-2002, 10:29 AM

What can I say? :D

God created man in His image several thousands of years ago and man has been trying to return the favor ever since :D ;)

-BL

B.Mac

08-16-2002, 10:44 AM

Well .................maybe I'll let you in after all :D ;) :p
Let's see after the Lobster Challenge
B.MAC:D

LaveyT

08-16-2002, 07:22 PM

blah blah blah... Bruce,to determine what method Christ will open some ones eyes to see him,Should probably be left up to Christ.:eek:

B.Leonard

08-16-2002, 08:04 PM

That's a good point Dave, and you're absolutely right. Everybodies rope is different and how far we have to be driven to the end of it varies from person to person before we accept the truth.

However, B.MAC and I are really discussing two different views of what is referred to as Soteriology, the study of salvation. His view is what is referred to as Arminian and mine is Calvinistic. The Arminian view sees man as holding the final "say" on whether he chooses God or not (conditional election). The Calvinism perspective sees God as soveriegn and He chooses based on His own good pleasure (unconditional election).

That quote just had a very Arminian slant "If we do not ultimetly find our significance in Christ" . The Calvin view is that God finds the sinner, not vise versa. True it did say "significance", and not "find Christ" but I think the overall tone is obviously Arminian. :D

Very interesting stuff, and we're just scratching the surface belive me!

-BL

LaveyT

08-17-2002, 06:34 AM

You guys were over my head on that one.:confused:
I feel all things happen in Gods time.I surrender my life to Gods will.If God wishes to use me as a tool in someone else life I just let it happen.Maybe I need to know more about this proccess,But its in his time not mine or anyone elses.
P.S. Im happy you guys are here:)

B.Mac

08-17-2002, 07:26 AM

Don't feel bad, it's way over my head too......and I Minister/ Counsel for a living....:eek: BL is extremely knowledgable in theology, yet at the same time, he has what I feel is a pretty good understanding of the nature of our creator (as well as any human can be expected to understand anyway). BL and I disagree on many issues related to our own interpretation of scripture BUT we both understand that it is not our differences that make us brothers in Christ, for most of our differences on issues are opinion and non-essential truths. The bottom line is that we agree upon the essential truths.....That there is one God; the Creator of all things, that he has sent his Son Jesus Christ as both an example and atonement for our sin. That without Christ we are hopeless and that God's plan for salvation is pretty simple. "That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)
Religion .......(which is of man/ and the enemy Satan) is intended to divide, to seperate God's children, and to bring confusion. If you have any doubt of this "spiritual warfare" go to a "christian chatroom" sometime and observe the hostility, division, arguments and anger there. This stems from "religion" and is not of God. Religion is strictly manmade and Christ was crystal clear when he spoke of the religious leaders of His day as a "den of vipers".
Those who love God focus upon thier common fundamental beliefs and attempt to prevent disunity through avoiding arguments over non-essential truths. God is God.......Who are we to claim to understand the one who set the universe in place?
B.MAC:D

wierdkid

08-17-2002, 11:23 PM

i almost completely agree with your last post B.Mac. If you look at the majority of disputes in society they have some sort of religious tie (the crusades, most terrorism, WWII (to a limited extent)).
the way i see it, there is some force that guides the universe. however, i do not think jesus was involved with that force. i disregard most religious writings and just take a few basic concepts that most religions share (standard judeo-christian values and such)
if any of you haven't already seen it i would highly suggest watching the movie "Dogma". not only does it show the downfalls of christianity and help to clear up some confusions but it is also extremely entertaining.

B.Leonard

08-17-2002, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by wierdkid
the way i see it, there is some force that guides the universe. however, i do not think jesus was involved with that force. i disregard most religious writings and just take a few basic concepts that most religions share (standard judeo-christian values and such)

All things were created by Jesus Christ, through Jesus Christ and for Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:16

Keep this in mind wierdkid:

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death. Proverbs 14:12

-BL

gaineso

08-18-2002, 05:19 AM

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. That is from somewhere in the early part of Genesis. Not a Bible scholar. Pretty well explains Christ thogh.

The problem is, you guys are complicating something very simple.

God is or God isn't.

If you think God isn't, go to the beach and stop the tide. If you can't, then you've got to accept that there is something larger than you that set it in motion.

Therefore, God is.

B.Mac

08-18-2002, 06:06 AM

John 1:1-5
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
John 1:10-13
"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not recieve him. Yet to all who recieved him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- children born not of natural descent, nor a human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

The nature of the flesh or mankind is to throw off all authority and restraint in order that we can "be like God" (Genesis 3:5)
This way we can act upon our own natural lusts without the associated guilt and or accountability to anyone else. This is what blinds us...........Our will. I want.......I will........I am......... and I'll be damned if anybody's gonna stop me........So I CHOOSE to ignore the obvious power and presence of God all around me (the light) by manufacturing the most ridiculous, illogical, and ubsurd substitutions through so called "education" or "leaning upon our own understanding".

If some guy with a tie, standing in front of a classroom teaches it, it must be right, particularly if it allows my flesh to throw off this ever present innate sense of God in order justify it's own depraved desires.
BUT..................
Let a man teach the Word of God......... something that calls us to surrender our lusts and desires over.........to stand accountable to God and one another..........then all hell breaks loose.

So I'd rather be a decendant of "chance", or even of gorillas, just as long as it doesn't interfere with WHAT I WANT.
Respectfully,
B.MAC

:D

B.Mac

08-19-2002, 07:20 AM

The clear duty of men goes beyond "Live and let live".
We are mandated to protect widows, orphans, the alien and all those who lack sustaining relationships. As long as men and boys fail to be protective, they will fall prey to the typical male sexual fantasy that sells (porno) magazines and films........
The only solution is to teach boys that the source of thier power is in the nurturing and protecting image of God created within them. When we express our essential nature, then cheap substitutes, like porno fantasies, lose thier appeal.

- E. James Wilder

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
James 1:22-27

B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-19-2002, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by B.Mac
...The only solution is to teach boys that the source of thier power is in the nurturing and protecting image of God created within them. When we express our essential nature, then cheap substitutes, like porno fantasies, lose thier appeal.

- E. James Wilder

:confused:

All humans are created in the image of God, even the reprobate. SO.... this guy Wilder must think that even unbelievers have some source of power in them upon creation to withstand sin!?! Hardly! :rolleyes:

Jeremiah gives us the condition of the heart of all men (including Christians), this is our "essential" nature and it's a fallen nature (although not from creation):

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (17:9)

We're 100% depraved from the git-go, we have no power in and of ourselves as fallen humans to resist any sin. As Christians, any power that we have comes from the Spirit that is in us. It's not our nature and we certainly didn't get it at creation. Our essential nature is as evil as the unbeliever. It's the Spirit that is in the believer that sets him a part, so the Spirit gets all the glory.

The believer is in constant turmoil with the Spirit in him and his fallen flesh. His flesh desires fleshly things, fleshly habits, fleshly lusts and will until the day it dies.

The unbeliever does not have the Spirit. He is completely a slave to his flesh only restrained by God but he has no indwelling of the Spirit of God.

There are times when it is hard to distinguish the difference. Every Christian is still very much a sinner and often times very much guided by his fallen flesh.

-BL

P.S. Sorry to jump all over your morning devotional quote again B.MAC :D I probably read more into it than you intened when you posted it :rolleyes:

B.Mac

08-19-2002, 06:08 PM

I agree with every point you made. :D (imagine that)
I believe the author would have been more accurate to say; and perhaps he meant;
........the only solution IS TO TEACH BOYS THAT THE SOURCE OF THIER POWER is in the nurturing and protecting image of God (Holy Spirit) deposited within them. When we express our essential nature (the necessarry indespensible nature of God through the Holy Spirit)
("essential" meaning "Basic or indespensible or necessary" rather than "inherant" or "intregal")
I agree the author is either language challenged or entirely off base altogether.

Jump all you want Brother, if it's off, it's off.
I believe if you combine his language with the scriptures provided a clearer however still hazy image appears.
Thanks for your good points!!!
Ya still can't whip my Checkmate though:eek: < = Flesh :D
B.MAC:D

wierdkid

08-20-2002, 12:14 AM

in the other hand there is the possibility that man created god in an effort to explain what he cannot explain. after all it does seem odd that every religion has an entirley different view of the process by which both man and the earth were created. additionally, the quote "that which you make true on earth i will make true in heaven" (I forgot exactly where this came from in the bible) seems odd to me. effectively this quote makes man into god in some ways by allowing people to buy their way into heaven [this was common practice in the middle ages(i wonder if these bastards actually did get into heaven considering of course that it does exist.)]

wierdkid

08-20-2002, 01:03 AM

since im starting to get a few posts in here im just going to let you all know where i stand.

I do not believe in any organized religion nor hold any actual beliefs but rather just ideas about everything i cannot experience such as gods existence. my main reason for this is that almost every dispute, war, and act of violence has some basis on the differences between the beliefs of the parties involved (Hitler's view that non-aryans are inferior which lead to WWII, the crusades, most terrorism).

if i am repeating anything i have already said in this thread its because i find myself getting involved in many religious debates making it hard to keep track of what ive said where.

B.Mac

08-20-2002, 06:54 AM

Your input is welcome here and your views are respected.
The scripture you are referring to is Matthew 16:19 and are actually the words of Christ...........just a little out of context.

Christ asked Peter "Who do the people say I am" and Peter answered him that the people were confused about who he was.
Then Christ asked Peter "Who do you say I am" and Peter answered "You are the Christ,(Saviour) the son of the living God"

Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH WILL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN." (Christ was speaking to Peter, and the church, or believers who acknowledge him as the son on God, the Christ).

Wierdkid, no one comes to the knowledge of Christ unless the Father reveals it to them. If you desire to know God ask Him, and He will reveal himself to you, for God is no respecter of persons.
(He values you as much as others) You and everyone else has been given a measure of faith....to increase your faith you must hear the word of God. I agree with you that religion stinks........it is a tool of man and the enemy........but do not close out God because of man's greed and desire for power and control over others through stinking religion. God despises religion and Christ spoke the harshest words of his life directly at the religious leaders of his day. Stick around Bro............
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 09:32 AM

Weirdkid:

in the other hand there is the possibility that man created god in an effort to...

- The finite cannot comprehend the infinite, that's simply illogical.

every religion has an entirley different view of the process by which both man and the earth

almost every dispute, war, and act of violence has some basis on the differences between the beliefs of the parties involved

- You need to step back and see the big picture. The reason for all the confusion and man's inability to live in piece, the abundance of false religions etc. stems from the fall of mankind in the garden of Eden.

God had every right to end it all right there on the spot. The wages of sin is death. Instead He had mercy and promised that His son Christ would be the sacrifice and let the world go on although separated from God.

Even an unbeliever like yourself is alive today because of Christ. If it weren't for Christ all of mankind would've cease to exist at that very moment in the garden.

Both believer and unbeliever owe their existence to Christ and should bow the knee and worship him or spend eternity in hell.

-BL

B.Mac

08-20-2002, 10:21 AM

Ease up a little on the fire and brimstone.....:eek:
Perfect love casts out all fear.......:D
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 10:47 AM

Never been one to use one barrel at a time ;)

Contemporary Christianity nowadays mistakenly gives the Gospel without first giving the Law.

The Law shows us our violations. The Gospel frees us from the legal implications of violating the Law.

You cannot give the Gospel without first giving the Law. You cannot tell someone how to be saved without first telling them what they are being saved from.

Our job is not to "win" anyone to Christ. Our job is to preach Law and Gospel and let God sort 'em out. :D

Also, if you preach wishy-washy theology that is what they will always remember. I always liked the saying... "What you save them with is what you save them to".

So I always give 'em the truth with both barrels:

Your sin is going to condem you to an eternity of hell. Repent, and believe Jesus Christ as propitiation for your sin and you will be saved. (Law & Gospel)

-BL

B.Mac

08-20-2002, 11:46 AM

Both barrels....:eek:
Personally....I was loved into the kingdom
Hell was a foregone conclusion for me....nobody had to tell me what a dirtball I was/ am....I knew that from jump street.
What happened to me is I was loved where I was at, by people who knew Christ.....despite the fact I was filthy, stank, ugly, prideful, conniving and manipulative.
The fruit of the Spirit in others is what drew me in ...........don't tell me about hell.......that's what I deserve......but by hearing the Word.....and experiencing the fruit of the Spirit ....Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self control in others I came to understand the nature of Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:1-8
What if I could speak all languages of humans and of angels?
If I did not love others, I would be nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging symbal.
What if I could prophesy and understand all secrets and all knowledge?
And what if I had faith that moved mountains?
I would be nothing unless I loved others.
What if I gave away all that I owned and let myself be burned alive?
I would gain nothing unless I loved others.
Love is kind and patient, never jealous, boastful, proud or rude.
Love isn't selfish or quick tempered.
It doesn't keep a record of wrongs that others do.
Love rejoices in the truth, but not in evil.
Love is always supportive, loyal, hopeful, and trusting.
Love never fails.

Ease up Brother 'for I have 'ta de-claw the Lobster boat:eek:
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 01:06 PM

It sounds like you got the Law early on quite a bit. Nonetheless, the Law comes first, then the Gospel.

Besides, how much more loving can you be than to speak the truth?

Although you may have been cleansed of many propensities, the jealousy of the brother with the faster boat seems to be hanging on ;) :D

-BL

B.Mac

08-20-2002, 01:15 PM

But I'm not limited....BLAHAHAHAHAHA (Limiters....get it?:D :p )
It must be grace that keeps you from bein' able 'ta whip me with anything ya got up there yet then huh?
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 01:30 PM

Not Grace.... Mercy :D

Therefore be ye also ready, for in such an hour as ye think not the Lobster cometh :D

-BL

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 02:24 PM

B.MAC and I are in full agreement:

The best way to summerize is through the use of creeds. The following creed best explains what we agree on:

I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen

One note... catholic = universal, (small "c") :D

There are probably many other points we agree on as well but the Apostles Creed is a good place to start.

The rest just makes for intesting conversation and can help you understand this world, your faith and maybe your problems.

-BL

PS H2ONut, this was in response to your post. Why did you delete it?

B.Mac

08-20-2002, 02:24 PM

I hear ya bro....
BL & I are different. We come from different families, backgrounds, religious upbringing, life experiances etc.
BUT..........
He and I agree on the foundational truths and anything aside from that is really peripheral. (not relevant)

Our only real argument is about who's boat is faster.........
and we all know the answer to that:D
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 02:55 PM

Put the bottle down and let me explain :D

If you believe...

"Belive in what you believe, if iyt does NO HARM to others, do not be little others beliefs because in THIER heart it is truth.THe allmighty is just that, no matter what name(s) you place on him."

...you will spend eternity in hell according to God as described in His word.

There is one God and He can only be known through His son Jesus Christ. You are a sinner and need to acknowledge your sin, repent and believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins.

I can't put it any simpler. :rolleyes:

-BL

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 03:10 PM

I re read some of your other points, wow!

Middle East! Where'd that come from! That's an Ishmael/Isaac fight thats been going on from nearly the beginning of time.

Calvinism, Arminianism, Socinianism etc. Botchulism :D LOL!

Are all labels of describing a particular perspetive. Not necessarily a "religion" in and of themselves.

Who are the B&B boys?

-BL

PS
Perspective not perspetive :D

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 03:37 PM

God Himself has condoned war! There are many accounts in His word where He has condoned war. Even against His own chosen, Israel...

"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD strengthened Eglon the king of Moab against Israel, because they had done evil in the sight of the LORD." Judges 3:12

There are accounts of God's prophets slaughtering hundreds of pagans in cold blood. There is even an account of God "desiring" to kill people and God striking people dead.

Hate is very much a Godly/family value by the way! (in context of course)

Nut, your argument isn't with me or B.MAC, it's with God Himself.

-BL

B.Leonard

08-20-2002, 07:38 PM

God's word - 100% truth. Inspired by the Holy Spirit (God).

Inspiration - "The process by which Holy Spirit-moved writers recorded God-breathed writtings" General Introduction to the Bible, Geisler & Nix 1986

-BL

PS

I might add, the original Autographs were 100% inerrant.

B.Leonard

08-21-2002, 12:48 PM

Looks like we epmtied the room! LOL! :D

Reminds me of the time I was on business in San Fransisco CA. I visited this left coast liberal church, went to their Sunday School and some lady with a peace symbol on the front of her shirt asked the typical question "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" Little did they know :D

I stood up and proceeded to tell them all they should be burning in hell right now if it wasn't for the Grace Of God through Christ! That would be fair and just! That they needed to repent while they still had time and embrace Christ as their savior! NOW! and on and on and on. LOL!!! :) I don't think they ever heard that before.

Needless to say they stayed away from me the rest of the morning :D But that's what they needed to hear. The truth.

-BL

PS actually there was one old geezer that came up to me and said "You know, you're right, God bless you"

B.Leonard

08-21-2002, 12:53 PM

This is a good one. As everything of C.H. Spurgeon is...

"He that watereth shall be watered also himself." --Proverbs 11:25

We are here taught the great lesson, that to get, we must give; that to accumulate, we must scatter; that to make ourselves happy, we must make others happy; and that in order to become spiritually vigorous, we must seek the spiritual good of others. In watering others, we are ourselves watered. How? Our efforts to be useful, bring out our powers for usefulness. We have latent talents and dormant faculties, which are brought to light by exercise. Our strength for labor is hidden even from ourselves, until we venture forth to fight the Lord's battles, or to climb the mountains of difficulty. We do not know what tender sympathies we possess until we try to dry the widow's tears, and soothe the orphan's grief. We often find in attempting to teach others, that we gain instruction for ourselves. Oh, what gracious lessons some of us have learned at sick beds! We went to teach the Scriptures, we came away blushing that we knew so little of them. In our converse with poor saints, we are taught the way of God more perfectly for ourselves and get a deeper insight into divine truth. So that watering others makes us humble. We discover how much grace there is where we had not looked for it; and how much the poor saint may outstrip us in knowledge. Our own comfort is also increased by our working for others. We endeavor to cheer them, and the consolation gladdens our own heart. Like the two men in the snow; one chafed the other's limbs to keep him from dying, and in so doing kept his own blood in circulation, and saved his own life. The poor widow of Sarepta gave from her scanty store a supply for the prophet's wants, and from that day she never again knew what want was. Give then, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, and running over. - C.H.Spurgeon

-BL

B.Mac

08-21-2002, 05:22 PM

Over 1600 hits and only 133 posts so somebody's readin'.
That's a good thing huh?

Wish ya'd quit scarin' everybody out with all yer goin' ta hell, fire and brimstone, double barrell, get in or get fried :eek: sermons though:D It's true, I know.......and it needs to be said.......but it's kinda like ministering with a backpack flamethrower. They peek in 'fer a look and come out with no facial hair.:eek:
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-21-2002, 07:49 PM

Eternity is a long time, and the the price that was paid is infinite. It's not a matter that should be taken lightly.

-BL

H2Onut

08-21-2002, 09:23 PM

Thank you B-Mac

It is by acts and not by ideas that people live.

------Anatole France

wierdkid

08-22-2002, 12:02 AM

to back out of the religion world for a sec:
i have to say BL that your comment about the infinite not being able to comprehend the infinite while true was just a little bit off the topic. what im tryin to say is that religion could be entirely synthetic as humans have never directly experienced god or anything of his realm and have had proof to back it up. but then again this could be because, as you said "the finite cannot comprehend the infinite."

Also i must say that your belief that those who do not believe in Jesus are doomed to hell seems more appropriate for about 2002 BC and not 2002 AD (AD =Aco Domino=in the time of our lord and not after death). I think that God would be a little bit more forgiving than that and would allow those that follow their own ideas, use life to its fullest extent, and try to act in a genuinely kind manner to enter heaven and.

to sum things up maybe we should lay off talkin bout religion for a little bit and just have some fun.

by the way in relation to the 2002 BC thing does soddom (soddom and gamorah) have anything to do with soddomy after all werent they all homosexuals over their.

B.Mac

08-22-2002, 07:44 AM

My post to BL is meant to be humorous not contentious. I agree with BL 100% on the issue of eternal damnation for unbelievers.
If it were someone other than BL, I wouldn't have posted that openly because I know BL will not take offense in it, when many who profess to be Christians would become angry and argumentive.
I also know I can usually count on a good debate outta BL on just about anything we talk about.......he's not wishy-washy on anything .........religion or otherwise and is quite opinionated however open to debate. The bottom line is the Word says that there are many members to the body of Christ, each serving it's own good purpose, for the good of the whole. Although it may be percieved in our language we are contending......nothing could be farther from the truth.......our beliefs are identical........it's our approach that makes us appear to be contending. BL can reach people with the Word that can't or won't hear me........and visa-versa. I chose to pattern my ministry after Christ, gentle and wooing..........but if you asked any of the 80+ men I am responsible for in our D&A recovery ministry, they would probably tell you that I am too harsh or direct. Darkness does not like the light (I do not profess to be the light, the light is God's word).
The fact is "truth hurts" and light (the Word) exposes parts of ourselves that we would rather not look at.
Everybody's perception of a Christian is a wishy-washy mamby pamby noodle backed tip-toe through the tulips kinda men.
I promise you.....this is not accurate, and obviously not BL's approach. But if you get around BL, you immediatly recognize humility.......how can that be? The Word says we are to be BOLD as lions and gentle as lambs (at the same time). So please bear with my weaknesses and faults as well as BL's and anyone else's who's got enough backbone to post on this thread, whether you are a believer or a staunch athiest all are welcome here and your opinions are respected........I personally will not flame you..................and I'm honestly grateful at the respect everyone has given this thread.
B.MAC:D

Rickracer

08-22-2002, 07:44 AM

I'm not big on fire and brimstone, but Bruce is right. If youu read the bible, it says so. The wages of sin is death, and the only way to be forgiven is through Jesus Christ, our ONLY salvation. It's really pretty simple. Maybe you should read this thread again, start to finish, take notes, and then follow up by reading the bible passages noted in the thread. The picture will become much clearer. :)

B.Leonard

08-22-2002, 08:04 AM

Aren't you!?! :D

If you're feeling a little heat from your conscience (NUT) that should tell you something.

Nut... Law MUST come before Gospel. Why do the 10 commandments come before the Gospel in the Bible? Why does the Old Testament come before the New? If you don't understand your predicament, then you have no need for a savior.

Wierd Kid...

No I understand exactly where you're coming from. I've heard it many many times before. I was trying to be brief.

Yes you are experiencing God right now. You're breathing and it's by His Grace. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. I'm not here to persuade ANYONE. I'm here to warn you that if you don't give God the glory for your life and existence and embrace His Son Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin, which is the only way you can know the God of this universe (through Christ), you will pay for it by spending eternity in hell.

As far as God being forgiving...

There is nothing more forgiving and merciful than God. He is letting a vile worthless sinner like yourself and me live and giving us the opportunity to stand in His sight perfect, through believing on His Son Jesus Christ. Just believe. That's all. Just believe.

Etymology... the study of the history of words. The word Sodomy most likely has it's roots in Sodom and Gomorrah no doubt.

-BL

B.Leonard

08-22-2002, 08:39 AM

That was very well stated! You couldn't be more on target.

Everyone has their place in this world where they're to grow and affect. It's all the providence of God. He uses us where He wants according to the talents He gave us. There is no way I could handle what B.MAC does on a daily basis down there. I saw it first hand.

Just the way God kept Paul away from witnessing to the Jews. Nobody knew the Jews better. Paul was the most law oriented Pharisee there was but God knew he would rub them the wrong way and used him to witness to the Gentiles (non Jews). That had many interesting side effects as well!

-BL

2Blade

08-22-2002, 12:20 PM

and the truth does hurt. I need to hear it more and more, especially in a world that bombards us with so many distractions. BTW, that is one of the things I love about the truth...it is same today as it was 2000 years ago and 2000 years before that. I just hope that when the Good Lord looks my way, he'll find me praising His name, cause if I don't the rocks will!! Weird Kid...it took guts to post your thoughts and your welcome to keep joining in...but BL is right, the Lord is working on you...embrace it. Rickracer...good to hear from you. Reid.

B.Leonard

08-22-2002, 01:03 PM

You want hell/fire read that well known sermon by Jonathan Edwards (18th century, 1703)

B.MAC and his lovely wife and I were talking about this last weekend.

God is very much standing over mankind with a HUGE mallet wanting to smash man. Man has committed "cosmic treason" against a holy and perfect God.

Fortunately for the believer, Christ is stooping over the believer and will take the hit from the mallet. (actually has already, the cross)

For the unbeliever it's God's mercy that He hasn't smashed them yet.

The time is coming when the mercy is gonna stop.

-BL

B.Mac

08-22-2002, 01:58 PM

Cheepers BL !!!!!! You dont mess around do you? Most guys on the board get flamed a little here and there but 'fer cryin' out loud .....:eek: There aint a hair left on anybody readin' this thread and then you got a mallet 'ta finish everything else off :eek:

BL and I were talkin' politics at my house last weekend and he's got every arab nation and thier neighbors blown to smithereens (which is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion) but when I prodded him a little he's like "What the heck is he (Bush) waitin' for? Let's just go ahead and let 'em rip! Them planes shoulda' been in the air before the Trade Center fell. It's gonna happen anyway, might as well be now!!!"

You wanna know what's really scary?.....He's right:eek:
We live in very scary times........
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-22-2002, 02:32 PM

Only one plane... the B2. With the kind of ordinance you have to wear sunglasses after it's dropped.

-BL

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 02:33 PM

CALVINISM -- TEN LITTLE CAVEATS

Calvinism's View Of God Is Not Completely Right

I have not joined the Calvinists because they have
taken something for granted that they should not have. They
presuppose some things about God that they have no authority
for doing. They are not completely right about God.

It's true that we all have been wrong about him and
even as believers we continue to get things in our thinking
cleared up about God. Even my Christian brother, the
Calvinist, may be able to show me aspects of my thinking
that are even now wrong about God. If he does and if I find
my whole system of belief hangs on these beliefs, then I
will have to change and believe the truth.

Until that happens, I intend to show why Calvinists
should reform their essential view of salvation because so
much of it hangs on wrong presuppositions about God.

PRESUPPOSITIONS

Everything that we believe and take action on is based
on something that we take for granted as true; on something
that we don't necessarily have to prove; on something that
we presuppose. For example, I believe God has created an
orderly world, therefore, I can make plans. if I presupposed
a chaotic world I would have no reason to make plans.

For the Christian, the things that we presuppose are
first, that there is a God and second that the Bible is
true; that it is God's decisive way of revealing the truth
about himself. There is no necessity for you to have to
prove the first things you presuppose. You just operate on
the assumption that is made until (if ever!) you find that
it is inconsistent to continue basing your beliefs and
actions on that assumption. And the fact is that everyone
begins by believing in God (and consequently His authority
over us), but everyone immediately and wrongfully suppresses
this truth (Rom. 1:18,19).

I and the Calvinist have the same first
presuppositions. First, that there is a God, and second,
that the Bible is true. We both believe that what the Bible
says about God is true. But, we both interpret what the
Bible says about God and come up with two exclusive
meanings. If the interpretations exclude one another, then
at least one of them is wrong. [1]

The presuppositions that guide our interpretation of
the Bible should themselves be taken from the Bible. If you
don't do this then you're making your interpretation
independently of the Bible and what you believe is then
built upon something other than the Bible.
I think my interpretations about God as revealed in the
Bible are more nearly based on Bible-derived
presuppositions. And, I think there are presuppositions
that have guided the Calvinist that are not Biblical
presuppositions. The presuppositions one has about God will
serve as a pattern or paradigm for basing the interpretation
of all other scripture. That is why I will deal with
specific "problem" texts last; after we have sifted through
our presuppositions.
One extreme example (not a Calvinist example) of how a
wrong, non-Biblical presupposition affects the
interpretation of other scripture is seen in Mormonism.
They take it as a given (giving priority to Joseph Smith's
revised visions which are a rejection of Bible teaching)
that God, the Father, has a body like humans. Because they
presuppose this non-Biblical notion they interpret scripture
which says "God is a spirit ... " to mean that the Father's
spirit is clothed in a "personage", with the Holy Ghost
being the shared mind of the Father and Son. [2]

ORIGIN OF PRESUPPOSITIONS

Certain ideas invite acceptance because they seem to
have great explanatory powers. When we hear our
perplexities explained in a manner that relates cause and
effect handily, we may be prone to believe such ideas. In
the first chapter I showed how that Augustine was perplexed
over the problems that seemed to arise over the traditional
view of election based on foreknowledge. In response
Augustine decided that election was based on the mystery of
God's unsearchable will rather than on His foreseen choices
of men. [3] Augustine, it appears, saw that certain non-
Biblical ideas of the Greek philosophies would enable him to
explain things.

AUGUSTINE'S PRESUPPOSITIONS

The case with respect to Augustinianism and Calvinism is
not merely one of guilt by association with "isms", but like
the adulterous preacher who constantly preaches against
immorality, the Augustinian and Calvinist writers
continually warn against the dangers of accepting any
teaching as our authority, outside of the Bible, while at
the same time letting classical Greeks like Plato, the
Stoics, or Aristotle help shape God's revelation of himself.
The Calvinist is supposedly committed to "sola scriptural"
(only scripture) and "sola gratia" (only grace), but so
subtle has been the Greek influence in Calvinist thought,
that most do not recognize it as such. Some who do
understand the sway the Greeks had, fail to see that it has
reshaped their interpretation of the Bible. Benjamin Writ
Farley, for example, says that,

the rudiments of a reformed doctrine of the providence of
God lie deeply embedded in the western philosophical
tradition. There is little point in debating this.
Wisdom and truth consist in acknowledging the fact and in
showing how Christian and later Reformed doctrines differ
significantly from the older, inherited, philosophical
views.

Farley reflects further,

Has Reformed theology wed itself too closely to the
classical world's concepts of God's perfection,
omnipotence, omniscience, and immutability in its
attempts to witness to the God of Scripture? To be
certain, such concepts have their place in guiding the
church's reflection on the biblical God of providential
activity. They enable the church to avoid the pitfalls
of defining God in ways that make him subservient to
other factors in the universe; they call the church's
attention to glaring inconsistencies in its assertions
about deity. But they need not 'control' our
understanding of God's interaction with his world. [5]
The unadmitted fact is that "classical" definitions of
God when accepted, of necessity do control our understanding
of God's interaction with His world.

FROM PLATO

In the following brief examples of Greek philosophy we
will see the likely source of some present day Calvinist
teachings: From Plato comes the concept of "the forms" or
perfect ideals. This gave students of philosophy (one being
Augustine) the notion that God does not change in any way
because he is perfect. What is perfect, it is argued, does
not change because by definition "perfect" means the level
beyond which nothing can exceed. Nothing is more perfect
than flawless, A+, or 100%. For a Platonist, things which
change are inferior to things which do not change.

The Bible presents God as changeless, but the Christian
tradition being shaped by Augustine and others, had to
interpret what that meant. They had to decide if it meant
that God did not change in character or if it meant that he
did not change in some stronger sense. I shall argue in due
course for the former sense alone.

Calvinists, however, chose to interpret God's
changelessness as Aquinas, Augustine and the Greeks had
defined it. Aquinas argued that God is totally unchangeable
because "anything in change acquires something through its
change, attaining something not previously attained. Now
God...embracing within himself the whole fullness of
perfection of all existence cannot acquire anything. [6]
"Being perfect already he can lack nothing," seems to be his
argument. I will show later how perfection may not consist
of being in a static condition, but for a perfect being, His
perfection does have a place for a _certain_ process of
change. I don't mean to imply just any process of change;
certainly not an "evolutionary-type" process of becoming!
Part of what makes God flawless, all good and complete is
His ability to change other than in His character. I will
expound more on this in chapter four.

FROM ARISTOTLE

Plato inspired Aristotle's thinking about the
superiority of things that do not change. We see it
expressed in Aristotle's idea of the "Unmoved Mover." God is
thus "the eternal self-mover; pure actuality, for any
potentiality and change would suggest imperfection; hence
this god must also be incorporeal and without perishable
qualities. Thus the Prime Mover is without sensation or
desire." [7]

From ideas such as this Augustine and others took the
Biblical concept of God's immutability (unchangeableness)
and gave it new non-Biblical meanings. From the Bible comes
the revelation that God cannot change in character. From
the Greeks came the idea that God cannot change at all.

FROM THE STOICS AND PHILO

Besides the nature of God's changelessness, other
things about the way God had ordered things seemed to have
been given non-Biblical senses because of Greek influence.
The Stoic philosophy among other influences may have given
rise to the notion that no action in man can arise uncaused.
The Stoics were predeterministic in their thinking. They
reasoned that every event had its set of causes. To them
there were no uncaused events; every event was predetermined
by preceding events. They taught that chance was only a
name for undiscovered causes, and that God was the only
uncaused thing. [8]

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 02:33 PM

In opposition to this philosophy the Bible seems to
imply that man was created with the ability to act in
response to God in some uncaused or self-caused ways. A
Jewish student of the Greek philosophies, Philo of
Alexandria, promoted the idea that though God causes all
things that happen; things that do happen have a primary and
a secondary cause. Since God is good, he reasoned, and
causes no evil, God is not at fault for some things that
result from a secondary cause. From something like this
seems to have come the Calvinist rhetoric concerning
"proximate" (near) and "remote" (further removed) causes
with remote causes being less blameworthy than proximate
causes. This may not be the way the Calvinist says it, but
the meaning cannot be far from what I have written. In the
need to resolve the problem of removing God's responsibility
for appointing the origin of sin, Calvinists have looked to
the Greeks for help.

It's plain to see that even if a man freely does
something by a choice that is caused by factors over which
he does not have final control, he cannot be held
responsible for doing the action; the controller is
responsible. That man could not, as a matter of necessity,
have made other than the choice he made. The case is like
one hitting billiard ball A which then hits B, and then B
hits C. We cannot say that B is really blameworthy for
hitting C. [9]

CONCLUSION

The Bible does not teach that God appointed that Adam
should sin, but because of certain presuppositions about
God the Calvinist must cast about for a suitable
explanation for holding that everything that actually
happens is caused by God. Non-Biblical concepts seem to
have been chosen to find ways of minimizing the emphasis on
God's responsibility for moral evil and of maximizing the
emphasis on man's responsibility for having faith.

B.Leonard

08-22-2002, 02:58 PM

Please state your sources and/or references and I'll address your issues seriatim. :cool:

-BL

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 03:18 PM

What Do Calvinists Believe?.

Introduction

Where did the word "Calvinist" come from?
Well, to answer this question, I'd like my readers to come with me to Holland, in the year 1610. Just one year after his death, James Arminius's followers (known as Arminians) presented 5 doctrinal concerns to the Dutch Parliment in the form of a Remonstrance (protest). The churches of Holland had (in accord with other major Protestant Churches in Europe) subscribed to the Belgic and Heildelberg Confessions of Faith, both of which were faithful expressions of the theology of the Protestant Reformation. The 84 members of the Dutch Parliment and the 18 secular commisionars attending, studied these "5 points" in the light of scripture for 154 sessions held over a period of 7 months. After careful consideration, the Parliment not only chose to reject the 5 doctrinal points of the Arminians, but also to make their own 5 doctrinal points in relationship to those matters which were at issue. They named their 5 points the "Five points of Calvinism" after John Calvin, the french theologian who was one of the most important leaders of the Protestant Reformation and who had done so much in his lifetime (1509-1564) to teach and spread these doctrines.

Where does Calvinism fit into Church History?
Thirdly, you may wonder "Where does Calvinism fit into Church History?" In light of a great number of scripture verses, it is easy to argue that both our Lord Jesus, as well as the Apostle Paul taught the ideas and concepts which are now nick-named Calvinism. However, since the issue under discussion is Church History, we will postpone the examination of those scriptures until later. Augustine, who lived from 354 to 430 a.d., was the most important theologian among the early church fathers. He consistently taught the Calvinistic concept of salvation by grace in contrast to a teacher named Pelagius, who was publicly denying the doctrine of predestination and the teaching that men are born with a sin nature. Pelagius believed that people are born sinless and possess the ability to remain that way if only they will to do so. Thus, Salvation was the achievement of a strong will. Augustine believed that the Bible taught otherwise. He maintained that, ever since Adam chose sin in the Garden of Eden, mankind is born with a corrupt and sinful nature which renders him unable to desire righteousness and unwilling to truly trust in Christ alone for salvation. Only the grace of God can deliever him from this prediciment. As an act of pure mercy and grace, the Holy Spirit changes the sinner's heart through regeneration so that he becomes willing to believe in Christ. The Spirit only regenerates those that God predestined to be saved. The others are, of course, in no way forced into unbelief, they are simply passed over and left in their natural state, which is just naturally a state of rebellion and unbelief. The early church met in 529 a.d. at the Second Council of Orange to debate the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius. Augustine's view was officially upheld and Pelagius was condemned as a heretic.

The viewpoint of Augustine, which was, in reality, simply the Calvinistic viewpoint, was known as Augustinianism during medieval times. Many Augustinian monks held to Augustine's basic viewpoint. However, as the centuries rolled by, the Augustinian viewpoint was watered down. Some taught it more consistently than others. Thomas Aquinas taught it, although he also included many Catholic doctrines that Augustine would not have agreed with. John Wycliffe, the morning star of the reformation, taught it more clearly than Aquinas, although he was plagued with some Catholic thinking also.

The Protestant Reformation was an attempt to restore the viewpoint of Augustine. Martin Luther was an Augustinian Monk and was greatly influenced by the teachings of Augustine. He held unswervingly to Augustine's emphasis upon predestination. All of the other leaders of the reformation agreed with Augustine and Luther on that point. John Calvin taught Augustines' viewpoint so clearly and consistently that after Calvin's time Augustinianism was renamed "Calvinism". John Knox, the Scottish reformer held to Calvin's view as well. So did a host of others including Theodore Beza, William Farrel, Ulrich Zwingli and William Tyndale.

After the reformation, Calvinism remained the dominant theological viewpoint both in Europe and America, except among Catholics. Calvinists included such people as John Bunyan, the writer of Pilgram's Progress, John Newton, the writer of the Hymn "Amazing Grace", Augustus Toplady, the writer of the Hymn, "Rock of Ages", Charles Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher of England known as the "prince of preachers", George Muller, the founder of many orphanages, George Whitefield, the greatest evangelist in history and the central preacher of the Great Awakening, Jonathan Edwards, Americas most famous philosopher and the intelluctual leader of the Great Awakening, and William Carey, the father of the modern missions movement. Also included are men such as John Gill, B.B. Warfield, Charles Hodge, J.B. Tidwell, and Arthur W. Pink.

Calvinism was the predominant theology among many groups and in many lands up until the twentieth century. The people of Scotland have a Calvinistic constitution and their churches are mostly Calvinistic. South Africa is predominantly a Calvinistic country. The church of England has a Calvinistic creed and Calvinism was the predominant viewpoint for several hundred years in Britian. The pilgrams who came to America seeking religious freedom were Calvinists even though we generally refer to them as Puritans. In fact, most of the early denominations in America were Calvinistic. This includes the Presbyterians, the group actually started by Calvin himself, the Congregationalists, and even the Baptists. Most Baptists were staunch Calvinists from the early 16oo's until the turn of the twentieth century. The majority today are unaware of this. However, there is a resurgent current of Calvinism among many Baptists today.

!

:D

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 03:23 PM

What do Calvinists believe?

Naturally, an important thing for me to tell you, in order for you to understand more about Calvinists, is what we believe. Although we do have the "5 points of Calvinism" there are actually just 2 things that really sum it all up. If you really believe these two things, you almost inevitably will believe the "5 points". These two things are 1.) The Sovereignty of God and 2.) Salvation is by Grace.

The Sovereignty of God

First of all, I want to define the phrase "The Sovereignty of God". To say that God is sovereign, is to say that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will." (Ephsians 1:11) That's the gist of it. To say that God is sovereign, is to say that he is The Governor of the entire universe and that He is actually governing it. It is to say that He is The King of kings. It's to say He is the Supreme Being in control of all things. Actually, to say that God is sovereign, is to say that GOD IS GOD. A God, by definition, is one who is Supreme and Sovereign. Therefore, to strip God of His sovereignty, would be to strip Him of His Godhood.

There are many verses which support the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. We will start with what King David, the man after the Lord's own heart, said, "Blessed are You, Lord God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever. Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, and the power and the glory, the victory and the majesty; for all that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and You are exalted as head over all. Both riches and honor come from You, and You reign over all. In Your hand is power and might; in Your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all." (I Chronicles 29:10-12) Now, dear reader, look with me at what the psalmist said in Psalm 115:3, "But our God is in heaven; HE DOES WHATEVER HE PLEASES." And then, again, the psalmist speaks of God's sovereignty, when he says, "For the kingdom is the Lord's and HE RULES OVER THE NATIONS.", in Psalm 22:28. Jesus Himself revealed in Matthew 10:29 that God is in control of even the smallest events, "Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And NOT ONE of them falls to the ground APART FROM YOUR FATHER'S WILL." Then in Job, the book where it shows us that Satan had to ask permission of God before he could do anything at all to Job, it says, "But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And WHATEVER HIS SOUL DESIRES, THAT HE DOES". God is even in control of sinful events. He does not cause the sin, but He sovereignly chooses whether to allow it or to prevent it, and He controls the extent of it and the course it takes. He controls it and uses it for His own purposes. An example is Jesus' choice of disciples. Christ deliberately chose a disciple who was a greedy man so that the betrayal and crucifixion of the Son of God would take place. Who can say that the crucifixion was not destined to occur? It is the very purpose for which Christ came. It was the plan of the Father. Yet, it could not have taken place without the sinful works of sinful men. God was controlling it all. Now, let's look at what God says in Isaiah 46:9-10. He says, "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel SHALL STAND, and I will do ALL MY PLEASURE,' calling a bird out of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed, I have spoken it; I WILL also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I WILL also do it." King Solomon, the man who was so wise that people came from far away countries to seek his counsel, said, under the inspiration of God that, "A man's steps areof the Lord how then can a man understand his own way?" (Proverbs 20:24) The reason your life often turns out differently than you intended is because the Sovereign God directs your steps. And finally, we see in the book of Daniel that, "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have you done?'" (Daniel 4:35) This most certainly sounds like a God Who does His pleasure, doesn't it? It certainly sounds like a God which NO ONE can get in the way of, or frustrate His purposes, doesn't it? These verses, which are the inspired Word of God, clearly paint a picture of One Who never says, "What?!? That's not what I wanted to happen!....Well, I guess I'll just have to fix it..." And of One Who never just sits idly, not knowing what is going on, and not having control. This is a picture of One Who is ALWAYS in control of EVERYTHING. This is a picture of One Who has a plan, and will carry His plan out. So, you can rest assured that when the Bible says something is His Will, it WILL COME TO PASS. When something is His Promise, it WILL COME TO PASS, when something is His Desire, it WILL COME TO PASS and when something is in His divine Plan, it WILL COME TO PASS. Because this is, after all, the great Jehovah we are talking about. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God who truly "works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS will". (Ephesians 1:11)

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 03:24 PM

Salvation is of Grace.

As I had pointed out earlier, the next thing I want us to consider is that salvation is of grace. First of all, one must understand what that means. Now, if something is of GRACE, then it is undeserved. It is obtained as a gift. It is as redundant to say "Would you like a free gift" as it is contradictory to say, "Would you like to buy this gift." If you bought it, it is no longer a GIFT, but your DUE. If you did some work to earn it, then it is no longer a GIFT, but is either partially or totally deserved, depending on how much work you did. And, it is the same way with grace. Just as Paul said in Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise, grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." So according to Scripture, something CANNOT be of grace and works at the same time. That is contradictory. This is what Paul is saying. So, when one speaks of Salvation being of Grace, they mean that the Salvation that a man possesses is entirely and completely a GIFT and by no means what he DESERVES or what is DUE to him; otherwise, it would no longer be of grace. Salvation is a precious gift, and, precisely because it is a gift, God is under no OBLIGATION to bestow it. As with all gifts, the giver gives to whomever He wills, and under no compulsion or necessity. There are many, many, verses which support the idea that salvation is of grace. Let's look at some. We will begin with Ephesians 2:8. It says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." And then, lets look and see what Paul said to young Timothy. "(God) has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began." (2nd Timothy 1:9) Then we have one from the book of Romans "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24) Now let's see what Peter said in Jerusalem "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.", in Acts 15:11. Titus 3:7 says, "that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Galatians 1:15 and 16 says, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood" Ephesians 1:7 says, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" Galatians 2:21 says, "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." And then finally, we see where Paul says in the clearest of words that we have been saved by GRACE in Ephesians 2:5, "even when we were dead in trespasses (God) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)". Grace was extremely important to the apostles. If you look through the Bible, nearly every letter they wrote started out with something like this: "Grace to you, and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ." Grace was important to them, not just in greetings, but also in terms of salvation, as we see in Acts 20:24, "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD." They called the gospel the "gospel of the grace of God". That's what the gospel was to them. The good news of the grace of God. And that's what it should be to us. As we look at these verses, we can certainly see that salvation IS all of grace....not of works...It IS a gift from God. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8)

What is "TULIP"?

If you've heard of Calvinism before, you have, most likely, also heard of "TULIP" along with it. As we've seen earlier, in 1610 the "Five Point of Calvinism" were born. 'TULIP" simply spells the first letter of each point. There are 5 points--there are five letters in tulip. TULIP stands for:

T Total Depravity (a.k.a. Total Inability)

U Unconditional Election

L Limited Atonement (a.k.a. Particular Redemption)

I Irresistible Grace (a.k.a. Effectual Calling)

P Perseverance Of The Saints

It is important to not separate the 5 points too much, but instead, to tie them all together. They are like a chain, and if you sever one, the entire chain will be broken. If you only meditate on one, or only read scripture which deals with one, you will neglect the others, and soon, the entire chain will be broken. To just look at one individual point, and never tie it in with the rest, is like looking at a painting one color at a time, but never stepping back to see what picture each color participates in making. So, as I attempt to explain each individual point, keep in mind that even though they ARE individual, they are each also one small piece of a greater, more glorious truth. Namely, God saves sinners.

When you understand the sovereignty of God and that salvation is of grace, the understanding of the 5 points will eventually follow, if you are ever made aware of them. I'm sure you'll see this more clearly as we go along.

Total Depravity

The definition of the word "depravity" is the state of being depraved. To be depraved is to be "corrupted. Wicked, especially morally." So, the phrase "Total Depravity" means Total Corruption. Or Total Wickedness. Now, when the Calvinist speaks of Total Depravity, he most certainly does not mean that every man on the face of the earth is Totally and Completely as corrupt, wicked, and sinful as it is possible for him to be. That should be obvious enough, for not everyone is a mass murderer, or even a bank robber. No, that is not it, but rather, that every single individual's whole person is corrupted by sin. In other words, every person's mind, soul, body, desires, etc. have been corrupted by the power of sin. All of his faculties have been touched by sin.

To illustrate this, I want you to consider the case of Lazarus. We all know the story. Lazarus, Jesus' dear friend, had died in Bethany. When Jesus finally came to Bethany, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days. After praying, Jesus said, "Lazarus, come forth!" and Lazarus came out of the tomb bound hand and foot, and his face was covered with grave clothes. Jesus had resurrected Lazarus. (John 11:1-44)

Now, let's think a minute about how Lazarus was BEFORE Christ resurrected him. Lazarus was DEAD. There was no life in him whatsoever. He was useful for nothing at all physically. He was bound hand and foot....he couldn't go anywhere at all. He had grave clothes over his face....he couldn't see anything. He was dead, so he most certainly had no feelings. His mind couldn't function, so he couldn't understand anything. His ears could no longer hear....he had no desires.... his heart was dead....Everything. Lazarus was DEAD. And the only way he could ever see again, hear again, feel again, think again, have desires again, move again, etc., was if Jesus Christ performed a miracle. Only a miracle could save him from the clutches of death.

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 03:24 PM

Now, this is the way man is SPIRITUALLY. Lazarus was dead PHYSICALLY, but he paints a perfect picture of one who is dead SPIRITUALLY. Man is spiritually dead. He brought this upon himself in the garden of Eden. God said to Adam that, "In the day you eat it (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) you shall surely die." God was speaking of a SPIRITUAL death (obviously, for we know that Adam didn't die PHYSICALLY that same day). But Adam did eat of the fruit, and so he and all his descendants died spiritually. Ephesians 2:1 speaks of this spiritual death. Speaking to Christians, the Apostle Paul says, "And you He made alive who were deadin trespasses and sins..." Now, let's think about what it means to be spiritually dead. Think of Lazarus. His heart was dead. It's the same with man spiritually, and that is the reason God promises to give a new heart to His people when He converts them. God says in Ezekiel 36:26 that, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." Again, Lazarus' eyes couldn't see....It's the same with man spiritually. John 3:5 says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God." Lazarus' hands wouldn't work....he couldn't do anything. It's the same with man spiritually. Man cannot do anything that is spiritually good. Romans 3:12 says, "...There is none who DOES good, no, not one." Lazarus's feet didn't work. He couldn't GO anywhere. Again, it is the same with the natural man, spiritually. Jesus said in John 6:65 that, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can COME to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." Lazarus's mind didn't work. He couldn't THINK and UNDERSTAND anything. Man cannot understand spiritual concepts. The gospel doesn't make sense to the carnal mind. Romans 3:11 says, "There is none who UNDERSTANDS" And 1st Corinthians 2:14 says, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." (And man is dead spiritually) Finally, Lazarus' will was destroyed. Not only was it impossible for him to go anywhere, being dead, he didn't even have the desire or willingness to do so. In the same way, man in his natural state is not only unable to find God, he is UNWILLING to even SEEK him. Romans 3:11 says, "there is none who seeks after God." Notice the word "none". Man is so totally dead toward God that there is not now, nor has there ever been, a single person who had the will or desire to seek after the true God. Spiritually dead man's will has been rendered ineffective. He never has the will to seek God or come to Christ. Of course, after God sovereignly changes a person's heart and gives him the new birth, he becomes willing to seek after God, but not before. If God doesn't give life, the dead sinner remains unresponsive to the gospel.

So, we can obviously see that man is DEAD in sin, just as Lazarus was DEAD physically, and therefore he must be given the miracle of spiritual life. Ephesians 2:5-6 says, "Even when we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," Before God gives us life, we can't see things of God (John 3:5), we can't do good works (Romans 3:12), we can't come to Christ for salvation (John 6:65), we can't understand the things of God (Romans 3:11), our hearts are hearts of stone (Ezekiel 36:26), and our desires are so dead that we will not seek or call after God. (Romans 3:11) Man is dead in sin, and the ONLY way for him to 'come alive' and call on Jesus Christ for salvation is if, just like with Lazarus, there is a miracle. The only way is if God calls him out of his death and into life. This is called regeneration or the new birth. A spiritually dead sinner's wicked heart must be changed through a spiritual rebirth before he will become willing to come to Jesus for salvation. The man cannot give himself this new life. Can a dead man help himself? Can a blind man see how to come to Christ? Can a man without understanding understand the gospel to believe it? Can a man with no willingness to seek after God seek God? No. Man cannot help himself. His only hope is in God. The only hope is that God works a miracle.
Unconditional Election

The second letter in the acrostic "tulip" is U. It stands for unconditional election. But what does it mean? Well, to begin with, the word "election" refers to a choice that God made. Before the beginning of time, long before the world was created, God knew that He would create a universe and that He would create mankind. God also knew that the first man, Adam, would sin and rebel against Him. The result of man's chosen rebellion would be that both Adam and His descendants would become corrupted and wicked. All mankind would become rebels against God. Now, God in His perfect justice could have decided to condemn everyone. (In fact, that is exactly what He did with the fallen Angels. God condemned all fallen Angels and provided no possibility of salvation for any of them.) However, out of sheer mercy and grace, God did something truly awesome. Before time began, God had intellectual knowledge regarding who all would exist. All of mankind stood before the Divine Mind. Now, out of that wicked and rebellious mass of Hell-deserving sinners, God made a selection; He made a choice. He chose certain ones and He predestined them to become the recipients of salvation and eternal life. He elected certain ones and He passed by others. (We should not complain about Him passing by some, because, since all are sinners, He could have justly passed by them all) That is what election is. Election means that before the beginning of time God elected certain sinners for salvation. The Apostle Paul spoke of election in the book of Ephesians. (Ephesians 1:4-5) We read, "...He CHOSE us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..."

Election and predestination are BIBLICAL terms. There are many scriptures that teach the concept of election. In Matthew 22:14 Jesus says, "...many are called but few are chosen." Luke 18:7 says, "and shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him..." Romans 8:30 says, "moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified..." Colossians 3:12 says, "therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness..." Titus 1:1 says, "Paul a bondservant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect..." 1 Peter 2:8-9 says, "...They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which also they were appointed. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." Finally, Mark 13:20 says, "and unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days." Yes, election is a Biblical doctrine.

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 03:25 PM

Now we come to the word "unconditional." Calvinism teaches an unconditional election. The word unconditional is meant to describe the BASIS of election. . Now, most people will freely admit that God elected a people before the foundation of the world, but there is less of a willingness to acknowledge what the Bible teaches regarding the basis for why they were chosen. Most people just assume that if one individual is chosen whereas another is not, it must be because one has met a certain condition that the other failed to meet. It is assumed that one was chosen because he did something good or commendable, and that the other was not chosen because he failed to do that good or commendable thing. Surely, it is thought, we are elected because we have succeeded in meeting some condition. Now that may seem reasonable to the carnal mind, but it is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we were elected before the beginning of time, long before we ever did anything either good or bad. We were chosen before we were able to meet any conditions. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, "...God from the beginning chose you for salvation..." Ephesians 1:4 says, "...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...". The scriptures emphasize the fact that we were chosen before we were born so that we will realize that we were elected as an act of pure grace and not because we did something to deserve it. This is pointed out in the case of Jacob and Esau. Romans 9:10-15 says, "... and not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, 'the older shall serve the younger'. As it is written, 'Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated'. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion'. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Here in the plainest of language we read that God chose Jacob and passed by Esau before they were even born, and it was not conditioned on anything they ever did. He loved Jacob and hated Esau and it had nothing whatsoever to do with a condition Jacob met which Esau failed to meet. Jacob and Esau were both sinners and so God could have justly hated them both! But instead He unconditionally chose Jacob and had mercy upon him. He says..."I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy." God is sovereign and He has mercy on whomever He chooses. It does not have anything to do with our works or even with the choices of our wills. Verse 16 in Romans 9 says, "It is not of him who wills...but of God that shows mercy." Now the idea of unconditional election ties in perfectly with the concept of total depravity, the first point of Calvinism. Since man is spiritually dead and unable to do anything spiritually good it must be the case that he is elected unconditionally rather than on the basis of his actions. Man is saved by sheer grace and not by works. He is saved because God chose him and not because he chose God. Jesus said, "You did not choose Me but I chose you..." (John 15:16) We imagine that we did the choosing when it came to salvation. But we are mistaken when we think this way. We would never have chosen God, because our hearts were sinful and hard like a stone. We were dead in sin and unresponsive. There are none that seeks after God. We love Him because He first loved us. He unconditionally chose us before the foundation of the world, and because of that, the Holy Spirit changed our wicked hearts through the miracle of the new birth. Then, as a result of that new birth we came to Jesus and believed on Him for salvation. He regenerated us, He gave us spiritual life and we believed. Just as Lazarus was first given life and then He was able to come to Christ, we were given life and then we came to Jesus in Faith. Faith is the result of having been chosen. In Acts 13:48 the apostle Paul was preaching to a group of Gentiles and it says, "And when the Gentiles heard this (the gospel) they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Here we see that believing is the result of having been elected and appointed to eternal life. Many people think that we were chosen because God foresaw that we would believe. But that is not what the scriptures teach. We were not chosen because we believe but just the opposite. We believe because we were appointed. The verse says, "as many as had been appointed to eternal live believed." That, my friend, is unconditional election!

Enjoy the read.

B.Mac

08-22-2002, 05:28 PM

I'll have to read that one in shifts!! I'll start in the morning nut:D
But I will read it all ;)

Here's the bottom line for me............
I don't believe in any religion.............................none of it.
I believe the Word of God..................................literally.
So what am I? ..............A child of God saved by grace.

Let's keep it simple........

Paul, while staying in Ephesus (Acts 19), writes this letter to the church he started in Corinth (Acts 18:1-17). He addresses various problems he has heard about and answers questions they have asked of him in a letter (see 1 Corinthians 7:1).
One of the primary issues (problems) that he addressed was that of divisions within and among the believers in the church of Corinth. The following are excerpts from his letter.......

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
I appeal to you, brothers in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you (Early Christians) so that THERE SHALL BE NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU and that you MAY BE PERFECTLY UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
What I mean is this: ONE OF YOU SAYS, "I FOLLOW PAUL"; another, "I FOLLOW APOLLOS"; another, "I FOLLOW CEPHAS"; still another, "I FOLLOW CHRIST".

IS CHRIST DIVIDED? WAS PAUL CRUCIFIED FOR YOU? WERE YOU BAPTIZED INTO THE NAME OF PAUL?

1 Corinthians 3:1-7
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly- mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

For when one says "I FOLLOW PAUL" AND ANOTHER "I FOLLOW APOLLOS" are you not mere men? What after all is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servents, through whom you came to believe- as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

1 Corinthians 3:18-19
Do not decieve yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.
B.MAC:D

Lord, I submit to you and to all men that I am a fool; Make me wise? Amen
B.MAC:D

B.Leonard

08-22-2002, 08:21 PM

There's another spelling for Calvinism... Christianity.

Other people have called it "theological precision". Either way it's not a "religion" as we've been using the term here.

TULIP is not the proper way to describe Calvinsm. TULIP came about as a convienent way to compare to other perspectives such as Arminianism but is not a good representation of Calvinism in itself.

Nut, when you post something like that post the reference with it. There is a lot of garbage out there.

-BL

H2Onut

08-22-2002, 09:50 PM

You are missing the whole point,

Every religion speaks of the faults of others, this I dont understand for each belives his to be true as much as the other. With this in mind, it seems that they all contain a common thread. It being all ALl Mighty or creator. So why is it the termoil exists, what is actually wrong with peace love and understading ?

Ya know it all comes down to what each individual values, treasures believes and hold dear. If we would respect each other right to pursue freedom of religion and chose our own path to Christ what is the harm done there?

Each person CAN be at peace with they invision to be there maker, this is whay I posted such a long thread, anyone can bash anyone elses religon. It is too easy to pick apart that which yo do not believe in.

In a few days I will delete the real long thread, just too darn long, however I did find it interesting to read. So ya see you were destin to get this Brimstone and fire destined sinner to read something (-:

wierdkid

08-22-2002, 11:41 PM

to take a scientific look at this question we should look to our evolutionary parents the chimpanzee and their evolutionary sister whos name i do not remember at this time.

chimpanzees like humans have a patriarichal (centered around the males) society. and their evolutionary sister species has a matriarichal (female centered) society. interestingly, the chimpanzees are much more violent than their sister species. this information came from a show on the discovery channel about 2 months ago and probably will re-air in the next couple of weeks if youre interested in this.

B.Mac

08-23-2002, 06:42 AM

Anybody that believes that nonsense truly, truly is desperate to believe in anything but a soverign God. It is unsubstantiated, unscientific grasping at straws. There is NO evidentiary LINK between APE and man, only early man. The HYPOTHESIS and I emphasize that word (although educators have conveniently forgotten to teach this word with evolution) is terribly flawed and any truely unbiased scientist would die laughing at it's ubsurdity. It's amazing what folks will believe if somebody in a tie in front of a classroom tells it long enough. If ya see it on T.V. then it's gotta be true...............

I am not related to the apes, although they may have been a much better option over most "educated" parents today.
B.MAC:D

Pass me a banana.............

B.Leonard

08-23-2002, 08:34 AM

Nut;

Simply because there is right and there is wrong. It's God's idea not mine.

He not only ordains the end, He ordains the means (how you go about doing something). He chooses you (end). You must believe in Him through Christ (means). You will hear about it through the seemingly foolish preaching of his word and make a decision for yourself (means), you will repent (means), you should be baptized (means) etc..

God says you can only know Him through Christ. Not through Mohammed, Confucius or yourself.

Evolution -

B.Mac hit the nail on the head, no intermediate species or links, but there is a TON of other proof. Evolution is a screen door theory, that's how many holes are in it. Micro evolution is ok though.

-BL

2Blade

08-23-2002, 12:37 PM

I read your posts...interesting stuff, nothing wrong with causing people to think. Let me ask this, because I am a believer, does this mean I am chosen according to the Calvinistic thought? Why would God not choose everyone to have the opportunity to believe in Him. Did He not "set eternity in our hearts"? Also, if He chose me and I do believe, doesn't everybody have same the choice? Isn't everyone predestined to have the choice to believe? Maybe I have it all wrong. What churches today believe the Calvinistic way?

Wierdkid, besides no "links", I just cannot buy into the astronomical probabilities and coincidences that would have to have occurred to make the evolutionary theory work. I guess the matriarichal society theory could be equated with Evinrude and the partiarichal society could be related to Mercury. I mean...Evinrude had the 90 degree v and now thru its demise it has evolved into the 60 degree v Merc...uh, oh, well let me loosen this tie B.Mac lest someone might take me seriously...why do we sit idly by and let the liberal left minority control us so much. Wierdkid, I just cannot believe that any chimp today or yesterday would ever lay down his life for another like humans do...too many hero stories for that, the "heart" didn't evolve. Only God could do that. Go outside tonite and look up at the heavens...only the Lord could do that. Appreciate your thoughts, though.

B.Leonard

08-23-2002, 01:16 PM

Yeah Nut, explain that :rolleyes: ...no wait, let me; ;)

First, there is no difference between the "Calvinist way of thought" and the Bible. Predestination is repleat from cover to cover in the Bible. Calvin was great theologian who merely gave us a better understanding of the more difficult teachings of the Bible.

"if I am a believer, does this mean I am chosen according to the Calvinistic thought?"

Yes. You were chosen before the foundation of the world and before time.

"Why would God not choose everyone to have the opportunity to believe in Him."

God chose only based on His own good pleasure. Ephesians chapter 1 (the whole chapter!) "good pleasure", "kind intention" same diff depending on Bible version (KJV, NASB, NIV etc.)

"Did He not "set eternity in our hearts"?"

Not sure what your question is here.

"Also, if He chose me and I do believe, doesn't everybody have same the choice?"

No. That's kinda the flip side of the previous questions. Everyone is accountable to choose but not everyone can choose God without God giving that person the ability to choose. You really have to understand that after the fall, mankind was 100% spiritualy DEAD. A spiritually dead person cannot choose spiritual things. HE'S DEAD! God must first breathe spiritual life into him. Then he can choose spirtually.

"Isn't everyone predestined to have the choice to believe? "

No. I will add though that people are NOT predestined to hell. That is what is known as Dualism. The decree to choose happened after the decree of there being a fall. This is known as Supra and Infralapsarianism. No time to get into that right now, but it basically states that God did not create certain people with the intetion of sending them to hell.

"What churches today believe the Calvinistic way?"

Calvin was a major part of what is known today as the "Reformation". Most presbyterian churches have their roots in the Reformation. Lutheran churches as well. However there are Baptist Reformed churches, Christ Reformed churches and many others who decided to model themselves after the Biblical teachings of the Reformation. The real father of the Reformation was Martin Luther. He broke the grip that Catholism had on the ignorant public with his public denouncing of the Catholic church.

There is some of this history in those long posts that Nut got from somewhere on the web.

You can learn much more by going to our website at;

www.girs.com

The Genevan Institute is where I was taught. Bob Burridge is my teacher (and pastor :D)

-BL

2Blade

08-23-2002, 01:30 PM

thanks for your thoughtsand I'll bookmark the link. As for the "eternity in our hearts", I was referring to Ecc. 3:11. "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end." Just meaning that God before the foundations of the Earth set things in motion so that every man might have the opportunity to have a relationship with him. Great discussion...I like being stirred to think. Reid.

B.Leonard

08-23-2002, 02:15 PM

The KJV uses the word "world" whereas the NASB uses "eternity". The remaining portion of the verse gives us a good grip of the thought at hand... That man cannot "discover" all that God has done. (Ecc 8:17)

So paraphrasing, we could say that Even though God has given man much understanding (world/eternity) man will never understand all of what God does.

Also, given the context of this chapter, I think it's obvious the verse is not referring to what we've been discussing i.e. the election of souls to salvation

Hope that helps :)

-BL

B.Mac

08-27-2002, 05:16 AM

Before I got saved, while in college, I used to ponder the issue of the accuracy and origin of the Bible. Most of the New Testament, I believed to be within grasp and believable (with faith). The single most difficult issue I had with the Bible.........apart from the fact that I was searching for reasons NOT to believe.......was Genesis.
At that time, because of the years of biology and psychology I had under my belt I looked at the content and language of Genesis as mythological.

I had concluded in my mind at that time; 1.) God was real 2.) The books of the Bible were inspired by God 3.) Somebody messed up and got carried away writing Genesis particularly the description of creation. Due to my so called "education" I had determined in my mind that God's Word was exaggerated/ flawed or distorted.

Looking back now, prior to being brought to my knees by drugs and alcohol, I now see clearly how this world's systems, particularly education and religion, are designed intentionally to discredit, minimize and even mock the word of God.

After eleven years of salvation and deliverence from the most powerful and self debasing lifestyle of addiction, I have come to be grateful that I went through those years of living hell.
You see I dabbled in sin all my life and had a very powerful lust problem from the time I discovered my LU. When alcohol came along I kept finding myself using very poor judgement in the pursuit of sex with anything with a skirt. Then along came cocaine, which was like throwing five gallons of gasoline on the little campfire of sin at my feet. I wont go into the next seven years of my life but suffice it to say.......I am soooo grateful to be out of it.

I had been "overtaken" by sin....... I had become a slave to it.

Today I thank God I became an addict and went through those things. Because if I had not, I would have never been brought to my knees. I would have never come to understand the delivering POWER of God. I would have went on leaning upon my own understanding (worldly education), and I would be lost today.

I cannot begin to understand the majesty and power of God. My greatest insight and wisdom is foolishness in God's eyes. If the Word says he created everything that has been created.........and formed Adam from dust and breathed life into his nostrils, and formed Eve from the rib of Adam while he slept........Then let me state this now for the record......I believe every word with no reservation. For God is God and I am his creation.....How dare I have the audacity to doubt His word......
God forgive me, for I am a fool..............
B.MAC:D

LaveyT

08-27-2002, 07:31 PM

Awsome BMac! You have been called to your work,no doubt in my mind.
I have found that Christ is the one setup I cannot figure out.
I solve problems for a living (run a machine shop).get my thrills squezzing .5 mph out of my rig.And love to think and solve mechanical problems.
The only way I could accept God was to realize that Faith cannot be figured out.I have no capacity to second guess or analize Faith.the only way to make my relasionship stronger and closer to God is to Surrender my life to him.Quit trying to figure out how it works and then tweak it.It works for boats but not with God.
The truth in your post moved me.

B.Mac

08-29-2002, 12:43 PM

Do all Calvanists have slower rigs than Pentacostals?:D

(I figured this might stir this thread back to life.......)

No really though......

I've been asked to touch on titheing. Does it work, what it is etc.
by a respected member of the board.
BL.......I'd like 'ta hear from 'yer perspective?
PAY OR FRY!!!!!!:eek: :eek:
Just kiddin' BL.......C'mon let's hear why should I give MY MONEY to GOD since he's GOD and owns everything?
B.MAC:D

AnthonySS

08-29-2002, 01:02 PM

...Go ahead I am listening!!!

I know me and my wife have signed up to the 10% theory and we have been blessed a great deal this year past...can't explain ...so it must be God!!!

B.Leonard

09-27-2002, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by B.Mac

Bruce I'll keep my hands on the wheel.........you better have yours clasped together seeking a miracle :p
B.MAC:D

Oh man that's funny LOL! :D :p

-BL

B.Mac

10-14-2002, 03:36 AM

Titheing is a biblical financial principal that comes with a written gaurantee. It's the only place in the Word of God that he challenges us to "test me".

First of all.......let me acknowledge a few issues. The principals of the tithe and offering have for centuries been the subject of abuse, manipulation and outright theft. Many self-serving religious organazations and so-called ministers/ evangalists are nothing more than circus side show acts that prey upon the most vulnerable populations and particularly the poor and disenfranchised. Promising prosperity and healing in exchange for your offering.

Historically, many large organized religions (I wont use any names here) (Yes I will.......Catholicism) used the tithe as a means to pay off your "sin debt".
Promising and assuring a clean slate before God for the proper "recompense" (penance) or renumeration dependant upon your paticular sin.......What blatant abuse of God's Word. Sadly, it goes on every day. It is all, for a lack of a better term..........a bunch of malarkey (B.S.).

The tithe simply means tenth. In biblical terms it refers to the "first fruits" of your labor. In biblical times the tithe usually represented the first tenth of all you produce, since many people of that time were farmers, vinedressers, vendors, craftsmen, etc. many times the tithe was brought to the Temple in it's raw form.....goats, bulls, chickens, sandals, inscense, lands, etc. or the benefits derived therefrom (good 'ol hard cash).

Here is an accurate biblical understanding of tithing.
First, in order to understand the tithe, you must have a little basic background history to understand the need for the tithe.

Adam, persuaded by his wife Eve (not much different from today heh fellas?) ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the center of the garden as commanded by God NOT to eat from. The Word describes that when confronted, the first thing that Adam did was blame his wife AND God himself!!!! Rather than accepting resonsibility for the actions of he and his wife, as the HEAD of his family......Adam, not unlike today looked to quickly place blame on anyone but himself to escape the consequence.

The term "serpent", in the Greek translation is translated "whipering enchanter" (ever heard that guy talk to you? I have....) and to condense the story, enticed the woman (the weaker vessel) to eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree.
The "whispering enchanter" did this by twisting God's own words out off context.
The enemies temptation was subtle and indirect....."Did God really say, "You must not eat from ANY tree in the garden?"

When Eve attempted to resist temptation she replied to the enemy "God said we must not eat fruit from the tree in the center of the garden, and we must not touch it, or we will die"

"You will not surely die" "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good from evil." (appealing to Man's inherant desire to "be like or take the place of....God!) So Eve took some fruit and ate and gave some to her husband, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realized they were naked (reality check)

Check this out.......God confronted Adam (the head) and he attempted to weasel out of it by blaming "The woman YOU (speaking to and blaming God as well) put here with me- she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate of it."

First God cursed the serpent (whispering enchanter) , then he promised Eve to "greatly increase your pains in childbearing"
AND God told the woman "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you"

To Adam he said " Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow (WORK) you will eat your food.

OK notice......God never cursed the woman, or the man, he spelled out consequences. First, pain to the woman in childbearing, second a desire for and submission to the mans lkeadership and authority, and third God cursed the ground which was a perfect tropical paradise which they were cast out of and now the ground had to be worked difficultly and constantly if man were to eat from it.

OK ......My point is this......the GROUND has been cursed due to Adam's sin......requiring him to WORK all his life to eat. Work long and hard........Cont. Later
B.MAC :D

10-14-2002, 09:38 AM

Historically, many large organized religions (I wont use any names here) (Yes I will.......Catholicism) used the tithe as a means to pay off your "sin debt".
Promising and assuring a clean slate before God for the proper "recompense" (penance) or renumeration dependant upon your paticular sin.......What blatant abuse of God's Word. Sadly, it goes on every day. It is all, for a lack of a better term..........a bunch of malarkey (B.S.).

Hey B Mac! Great discussion......... however I just have to correct a little something from the above paragraph. I know you say "Historicialy".

I've been Catholic all my life, and the opposite could not be more true today. In fact, Catholics today believe there's NO WAY to 'buy' your way to heaven. Just two weeks ago our sermon was that Catholics need not worry about why murderers in prison can go to heaven after repenting and accepting God just weeks before their execution, while another soul may have spent his entire life serving God, and gets the same end result, with no special treatment from God.

Afterall, God believes that those who repent (and are SORRY for their sins) can be saved ----- and he gives no time restrictions. He doesn't discriminate either. The Bible says repentant murderers are just as welcome.

In regard to "tithing", perhaps you are talking about "ANCIENT" times? Catholics today NEVER ever demand that anyone "pay" a cent. Maybe long ago? Remember, even not so long ago, Protestants used to burning witches too! That doesn't happen any more. Times change.

Catholics always seem to get bad raps from other religions -- So our Priest used to ask us to attend other churches and meet other people, (and invite them to witness our catechism as well) that way they could learn first hand what we were all about and dispel any malarkey they may have been taught in Bible camp. As a teen, I attended a 2-week Baptist camp in New Mexico once, and I was shocked at the wrong information the kids were fed regarding "catholicism". I'm very glad I was there to explain the truth to them. But I couldnt understand why they were hell-bent on wanting us to look bad to those teens, though?.....Isn't religion all about loving each other? Well, that's what I was taught at my church. :D

Through our church, I learned to spend your life "LIVING God's word" and making a difference in the world in your short time here. My parents were shining examples.. My 79 year old dad spent many years as volunteer of many charities, including President for many years. He died of a heart attack while carrying two flats of bananas to his van --- to deliver to the hungry people at the City Food Bank! My mom is 81 and currently works two places: St Vincent de Paul thrift shop, and at the local nursing home, pushing invalids around the block in wheelchairs! (many of them are much younger than her!!). She doens't do it to get to heaven ----- she does it because she feels everyone should do something good, but not for their own self-satisfaction -- they believe it's everyone's duty while on earth - LIVE the Bible, don't memorize it.. They never, never EVER looked down on ANYONE who didn't work as hard, or volunteer as much as they did. I love those people and how they raised me. If I'm ever asked to help, I now reach out with both hands.

Love and Peace! Via con Dios!

BK

AnthonySS

10-14-2002, 06:56 PM

...B.MAC,

Bring on the next coarse. Hang in there BK for part II!! Glad your reading.

Born and raised a Catholic here too...My Dad still sings the in the Choir....

Anyway...long story short...the Catholic Faith still left some emptiness within me...sure the concept of God was cool...but seeking to find out more about Christ gave the realization that the Priest Dude is not the guy I got to go to for repentance...Its as easy as accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour...

that was the condensed version:D

electroman

10-14-2002, 11:38 PM

i agree with anthony ss , i was raised a catholic , considered becoming a priest . ( in my youth ) i was baptised in the name of christ when i was 30 ( this time a personal decision ) then the ride of my life began . i am still a catholic , and will raise my children as such. the sacrements have substance , the pope has wisdom. but , my will to be baptised a second time , brought my understanding of a child , to one as a man.

AnthonySS

10-15-2002, 07:47 AM

Sounds cool ELECTROMAN...I am sure that is the condensed version too

sho305

10-24-2002, 09:12 PM

Not sure if I can believe all the stuff written hundreds of years ago, but what difference does it make? Think about it and you may realize they are good ideas, and a better way to try to live your life. Look at the great people around you and you will see those traits. Has nothing to do with if you spout off about it or not, it is what you do. It does get me PO'd when I see people do bad things, after they talk such a good line. And really mad when a whole religious institution does it. But, history is full of that stuff, not unlike politics. What really matters is you yourself, not the jerks. It also makes for a good baseline, to keep a proper view on things.:cool:

sleekin

10-28-2002, 02:03 PM

If you believe the first verse of the Bible, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth Genesis 1:1, you should never have a problem believing the rest of the Bible. Point being if God could create this universe in all it's complexity and everything in it, then how easy would it be for Him to preserve the Bible. Also read John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Yes, the Word of God– the Bible– is God! You see when you question the truth of the Bible, you are really questioning if there is a God. My answer to that is to read John. Ask God to reveal Himself to you as you are reading. It's not about religion, IT"S ABOUT RELATIONSHIP. Because God sent his son to die on the cross for our sins and rose again in three days, all the work has be done–John 3:16. All we have to do is believe this and we will live forever with our loving God in heaven. Or not believe and spend eternity in hell. That's it!

Religion will tell you you have to send money or that you have to not eat meat or some crap like that. Religion is of and from man. The Bible is from God inspired by God through the men who wrote it.

The Bible is our instruction manuel for life. All roads do not lead to God. The Bible is very specific about which road you need to take. Have you headed north on the freeway when the place you want go fishing is south. You would would end up wasting the whole day on the freeway lost. The Bible will tell you the truth. The correct directions for meaning inlife on earth and the hope of eternal life with the only living God.

Read Roman's when you finish John. Get your information firsthand.

Finally, just a note. When a person shares with you the TRUTH of the Bible, that person may fail to live up to the truth he or she has shared, BUT IT IS STILL TRUTH! I anchor myself to Jesus my Rock–when everthing else gets washed over the waterfall, I will be anchored under His wing– He will never fail me. He has shown me that first hand in my life.

What choice are you going to make. Jesus wants you to choose Him, or you can not choose Him which is a decision to send yourself to hell. The door to Hell locks from the inside. People who are there chose to be there.

Sleekin
20.5' Sleekcraft
200efi Merc