The fight continues...

[flabum1017]

Evolution or "intelligent design", which do you believe in? Science asks the question and searches for an answer, religion has the answer and doesn't seek to question. Do you want to know for sure through proof or do you blindly follow because it's written in a Bible?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbevolution0218sbfeb18,0,3770431.story

[mr.clean]

I have written several letters and Emails to Dr. Smith reminding him of his responsibilities regarding this subject. I suggest anyone that doesn't want their child to grow up crippled by fictitious fear do the same.

[email protected] <[email protected]>

[delawarerick]

Popcorn time:eek:

[Cobra1racer]

Seeing is believing. And I'm believing. It's the calmest moment one will ever feel.

I don't get it. You go to court, you put your hand on a bibble. You swear in a new leader he puts his hand on the bibble. You swear to god that you "didn't do it". You hit rock bottom, you ask god "why me". I was watching an atheist and a christian going at it on tv. The atheist used the term "oh my god". This guy looked like the biggest IDIOT in the world. What god stupid,you don't have one. As long as I've been alive I have never heard any one use the term "Oh my Ape". Have you???

[flabum1017]

And what do you consider fiction? The idea that evrything on earth was created from a single organism over a vast period of time or that we just appeared here in seven days?

[Cobra1racer]

tad poles to frogs- monkeys to humans. Tad poles are still doing it.

[mr.clean]

Some of us are still Monkeys,some even less than :rolleyes:

[riverrat69]

Is this now the new and improved biblethumpers thread?;) ;)

[mr.clean]

Is this now the new and improved biblethumpers thread?;) ;)

I take no responsibility for this thread ;)

[Racemore]

That's why Hell has fire. There will be plenty of fuel fool. The Book is coming to a close anyway. There will be no school rooms after the next World War.

To each their own. :cool: Why is it that in Communist Countries you can't have a Bible?

[mr.clean]

Brilliant :rolleyes:

[Liqui-Fly]

How about you open minded folks, especially those screaming for tolerance among races, actually show some tolerance for the beliefs of others. Perhaps if you can show actual harm stemming from Christianity, you might have something to fight against. Perhaps some non'believers are so afraid they're wrong, they want everyone else to be wrong with them.

[mr.clean]

[QUOTE=Liqui-Fly;1301847] Perhaps if you can show actual harm stemming from Christianity, you might have something to fight against.[QUOTE/]

:eek: Dude! are you kidding :confused: where should I start? This issue has absolutely nothing to do with tolerance or lack there of. It's a simple matter of the First Amendment ;) You cannot force "God" into public schools! You want it,you need it? have at it! but don't expect my kid to swallow it on your behalf.

[flabum1017]

[quote=Liqui-Fly;1301847] Perhaps if you can show actual harm stemming from Christianity, you might have something to fight against.[QUOTE/]

:eek: Dude! are you kidding :confused: where should I start? This issue has absolutely nothing to do with tolerance or lack there of. It's a simple matter of the First Amendment ;) You cannot force "God" into public schools! You want it,you need it? have at it! but don't expect my kid to swallow it on your behalf.


At the same time, the devout religious folks don't want evolution crammed down the throats of their children.....where do you draw the line and how do you educate?

[ssent]

Evolution or "intelligent design", which do you believe in? Science asks the question and searches for an answer, religion has the answer and doesn't seek to question. Do you want to know for sure through proof or do you blindly follow because it's written in a Bible?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbevolution0218sbfeb18,0,3770431.story

I think your just a trouble maker.:D But it's all fun! Right? :rolleyes: I'm laughing as I'm typing. I think I need several beers for this one. Opinions will be all over the place. I think it's interesting to see who tries to impose their ideas on everyone else. What about the end date Dec. 21 2012.

[Riverman]

There will be no school rooms after the next World War.Very good point. I think than you may be correct.

I don't have to worry about it though, all athiests would have been exterminated. You, on the the other hand, would be wearing a dirty nightshirt and praying to the east. Hey, a God is a God, right? :D :D :D

[flabum1017]

. What about the end date Dec. 21 2012.


The end will come, but nobody knows when. We will either self-exterminate by population outgrowning earth's resources resulting in ecological crash, Kill eachother off over religious beleifs or oil or get slammed by a ten-mile wide meteor putting us back into the dark ages and then a new ice age.

[Action Dave]

I'm not too sure what the big rage is about regarding evolution vs. intelligent design. When I was in school we were taught about the "theory" of evolution and the "theory" of the big bang. Teachers made a note to point out that these theories were not set in stone and we may never know the truth. Besides, that lesson was just a short blip in many lectures and lessons in science classes throught my education. I agree that religion should not be taught in public schools but I also feel that evolution should not be the be-all end-all. I think it's OK to present both sides of an argument and let students think a bit for themselves.

By the way, I am not religious at all. I don't believe much of anything preached in a church. But I don't consider myself an athiest either. I just prefer to think for myself and come to my own decisions. I don't live my life searching for explanations to unexplainable things.

[Liqui-Fly]

[QUOTE=Liqui-Fly;1301847] Perhaps if you can show actual harm stemming from Christianity, you might have something to fight against.[QUOTE/]

:eek: Dude! are you kidding :confused: where should I start? This issue has absolutely nothing to do with tolerance or lack there of. It's a simple matter of the First Amendment ;) You cannot force "God" into public schools! You want it,you need it? have at it! but don't expect my kid to swallow it on your behalf.

They going to force kids to pray, or allow them to pray? It's not freedom from religion, it is freedom of religion. You don't think America's Muslim children are allow to pray in school? No state IMPOSED religion...might be too hard for you to get your head around.

[msethsmile]

flabum--
General George S Patton, "Never pay for the same real estate twice." We may have been over this once or twice...

[riverrat69]

;) ;) Clean, where are you? You can't leave this alone.

[msethsmile]

I think Clean and I can agree (???!!!) the two viewpoints of Evolution and Creation are are mutually exclusive and cannot be reconciled. I suspect 1500 posts later we would arrive at the same point we are now. Want proof?

[Riverman]

They going to force kids to pray, or allow them to pray? It's not freedom from religion, it is freedom of religion. You don't think America's Muslim children are allow to pray in school? No state IMPOSED religion...might be too hard for you to get your head around.I believe we have the right to be free from religion, certainly in schools and in government. There should be NO PRAYER in public schools no matter what. I surely didn't want some stranger teaching my boys some superstition behind my back. There is nothing wrong with worship as IMO it is a very private thing. You want to worship a God, go right ahead! In the home, under the stars, to yourself, in a church, fine, but not in schools.

You want prayer in schools? You'd better be ready to accept Muslim prayer too then.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/river_57/Viper%20finished/S-DontPray.jpg

[WATERWINGS]

[I What about the end date Dec. 21 2012.

That makes the third mention of the possibleity of the end being in 2012.

I Know the Bible says no man will know when, but the Aztec calender ends in 2012, and the show I saw on Discovery channel also mentioned that the next big rash of huge solar storms will come in 2012, and no one knows how big they will get....possibly destroying the earth as we know it.

[1BadAction]

oh look! another E-dick measuring contest.

[Liqui-Fly]

I believe we have the right to be free from religion, certainly in schools and in government. There should be NO PRAYER in public schools no matter what. I surely didn't want some stranger teaching my boys some superstition behind my back. There is nothing wrong with worship as IMO it is a very private thing. You want to worship a God, go right ahead! In the home, under the stars, to yourself, in a church, fine, but not in schools.

You want prayer in schools? You'd better be ready to accept Muslim prayer too then.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/river_57/Viper%20finished/S-DontPray.jpg

You don't think Muslims are praying in Canadian schools???? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Fish]

Here is my theory for what ever it is worth, which I already know is nothing, but it might add a little to the debate and give clean something to ponder...

I believe in God, am in awe of natural selection and think the origin of species was brilliant. Why cant there be both Creation and evolution? I am not avoiding any of the arguments on either side (faith vs. science), however, why is it impossible to conceive that God could have created a single cell in 7 days (if taken literally)? That cell splits into 2, then 4, then single cell organisms become multi-cell organisms...and Evolve. Creation and Evolution.

just something to think about.

Fish

[Riverman]

You don't think Muslims are praying in Canadian schools???? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaI'm sure they are - to themselves. In our province it is policy for all public schools to remain secular.

[WATERWINGS]

Fish,


I kinda think that way too.

Besides, who is to say how long a "day" was considered at that time?

[Racemore]

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.


But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
_________________________________________________________________ Your FREE to believe or not and to have that freedom you have the freedom to hear contrasting points of view. I can Believe in God and it be taught in school just as you can believe in evolution. The Theory of Evolution was taught in Junior High when I was in school.
You are responsible for You. Christian's are responsible to tell you about God not make you believe. My Book has been coming true for 2000 years and in these last pages we now live. 2012 could be it. He will come like a thief in the night.

[msethsmile]

Evolution is contrary to the Genesis account and vice versa. Yet, Genesis is excluded from the public schools. Evolution claims Genesis is a crock. Wait, I thought no (anti) religion taught in schools. As discussed in another thread, Evolution is a religion and takes a leap of faith as much as Genesis. It all depends on who is interpreting the facts and their particular biases. Where did God come from vs where did matter come from? Answer: Nobody knows.

It is interesting to note, as public schools get farther away from the old methods and beliefs the pupil's test scores drop. This could be a 'the sun comes up and there's a car wreck therefore the sunrise causes car wrecks' argument. Never the less, public schools ban prayer, Genesis, traditional family, et al, and the scores drop. Spending in the meantime has sky rocketed. At some point there may be a correlation. At least a change in direction is needed.

Most home schoolers do it for religious reasons. Compare test scores and $/student vs public. Not even close. As stated in 'thumpers', the reigning national spelling bee and geography bee champs are both homeschoolers. Anecdotal? Given the winners being massively outnumbered by public students it would seem somewhat odd.

My oldest will soon enter (public?) highschool after being parochial/homeschooled. The public school counselor said she could spot the parochial/homeschool students who transfer in a mile away. Better grades, study habits, scores, demeanor, and respect for authority. Respect for authority learned in Genesis vs. Evolution, go figure. That's right River, according to the PUBLIC counselor, Jesus freaks make better students and score higher.

Signed,
Disgruntled taxpayer

[flabum1017]

My stance is simple. I cannot believe that the earth was created in 6 days and all of a sudden Adam and Eve were here speaking and all of us are from them. That's a big pill to swallow. There are so many races of people to support this. So, was Adam and Eve black or white, hispanic or asian, indian or alien?

Evolution seems to be more realistic to me. I don't believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, witches, cupid or the Easter Bunny.

The Bible was written by men... a series of books and storys to teach us how we should live. But common sense tells you a lot of those stories are quite unrealistic. If you read into it, it even contradicts itself at times. Such as when GOD says that he is a jealous god and then turns around and says jealousy is a sin. Who would follow a sinner?



Religion, to me, only seperates people and causes wars.

[msethsmile]

"The Bible was written by men."

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God breathed...

2 Peter 1:21b ff No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

--sounds like someone differs

[flabum1017]

"The Bible was written by men."

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God breathed...

2 Peter 1:21b ff No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

--sounds like someone differs


Who put it into print? Who translated it into english? How do we know this is "GOD's words and not the translated version from some drug-induced psycho? Every religion translates the words of GOD in different ways. Then the religious whackos want to scare you into thieir beleifs.

Sorry if I'm not scared.

[msethsmile]

Point taken--
The inspired/infallible/inerrant Scripture refers to the original languages/text; (mostly)Hebrew in the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament. 1. That's why its good to have a parallel Bible with 4 or more translations. 2. IMO pastor's should have training in Hebrew and Greek in order to refer to the original texts in case of a dispute.

It looks like I'm going over the hermaneutics thing again. Man is sinful and therefore cannot be trusted to interpret Holy Scripture correctly. This would include man's reason, experience, traditions, etc; all tainted by sin. Scripture interprets Scripture. Scripture interprets itself. If a passage is unclear, refer to ones that are clear to help explain. The author of a letter decides the meanig and intent of his letter. Why? Its his letter. Scripture is God's letter (some would say Love Letter) to man.

If anyone uses the proper hermaneutics with Scripture the same answer will always come out. Its just like a computer, enter the data, crank the handle, here's the answer. Very few Christians use this principle and that's why there a zillion denominations and translations. Short answer: sin.

Soli Deo Gloria

[pyro]

A few weeks ago, I attended a group viewing of "The Truth Project" Christian DVD series along with some discussion afterward. The DVD's were insightful, although my patience was tested at times, but then the discussion afterward turned into a "We gotta stop these homo fags from taking over" rant. I opted out of coming back to watch the third installment. I'm not really feeling the love, sharing this "interpretation" of the scripture. :rolleyes:

[SFRacing]

A few weeks ago, I attended a group viewing of "The Truth Project" Christian DVD series along with some discussion afterward. The DVD's were insightful, although my patience was tested at times, but then the discussion afterward turned into a "We gotta stop these homo fags from taking over" rant. I opted out of coming back to watch the third installment. I'm not really feeling the love, sharing this "interpretation" of the scripture. :rolleyes:

amazing in light of mthsmiles statement
Man is sinful and therefore cannot be trusted to interpret Holy Scripture correctly. This would include man's reason, experience, traditions, etc; all tainted by sin. Scripture interprets Scripture. Scripture interprets itself. If a passage is unclear, refer to ones that are clear to help explain. that so many people think that THEY are the ones to interpret scripture for everyone else.:rolleyes:

[flabum1017]

And who wrote the scriptures? Where did they come from and how did they get int print? Must have been done by an "untrusting human" don't you think?

[Action Dave]

Don't force your religion on other people. Evolution is not a religion, it's a theory and is taught as such. No school teaches the LAW of evolution, it is only offered as a suggestion or THEORY. The reason "intelligent design" get side-stepped is that it is a direct relation to RELIGION which does not belong in public schools. If you disagree, you can send your children to religious private schools. There is nothing wrong with that.

[superhero]

No religion should be taught in schools. Everyone knows that schools are strictly for the indoctrination into secular progression (which by the way is the religion of the left). This is the future voting base of the liberal fascists (democrats). And by the way, Darwin didn't even believe his own diatribe by the time he was on his death bed, thats why he became a christian. Just fyi.

P.S. If evolution were a fact, every animal and human you come across daily would be in a different state of development. And in the "geologic column" the layers would not be arranged the way they are!

[GPRACING]

What do ALL religions have in common??They require blind faith and for you to give up something.If you dont think globial warming is the hip new religion youre crazy.You have Al Gore as the pope,telling you to give up your suv,light bulbs and etc.Over half of his so called facts have been proven false,meanwhile his video is being shown in schools all across this country and being presented as 100% fact/truth.
As for the world ending in 2012,Who knows??The Bible CLEARLY says no man knows the day nor the hour but it doesnt say no man knows the year.Alot of you non-believers cant grasp the earth being made in 7 days.2000 years is like a day to God.So I dont believe that 7 days is in the literial sense(IMOP).
Every generation says God is coming back.There is still ALOT that has to come to pass before that is to happen.

[flabum1017]

Blind faith is what makes a terrorist Muslim believe he will be surronded by virgins in the afterlife if he goes and blows himself up in the middle of a crowd in the name of religion.

[GPRACING]

Amen brother!!I wouldnt blow myself up for all the A$$ in north america!!Those people are WACKED out of their minds!

[msethsmile]

ActDave--
And what about my property taxes which go to teach this anti-Genesis stuff at public schools? Freedom of choice. Bring on the vouchers.

Gprace--
Of coarse Evolution doesn't take blind faith. Wink-wink, nudge. Evolution claims matter and life just came into existence, Shazaam, sounds alot like religion to me.

Anytime anyone predicts a specific date for the world ending = charlatan.

Flabum--
Scripture has one author, God. "All Scripture is God breathed..."(2Tim 3:16)How do you explain the continuity over the 1500 or so years it took to write Scripture?:

Uncanny? Lucky Guess? Jacob (also called Israel) lived roughly 2000 B.C. On his deathbed he prophecied the fate of his 12 sons (which became tribes). The most important prophecy was "The scepter will not depart from Judah." (Genesis 49:10). BTW, that's eternal; Judah would eternally have a man seated on the throne. Jacob trusted in the promise that a Savior (King) would come from his own descendents, specifically, thru his son Judah. Low and behold, 2000 years later, only one tribe retained its own identity, Judah. The other 11 tribes were destroyed, assimilated, and/or carried off to captivity (due to their own unbelief). Christ, The King, was born to the tribe of Judah.

Here's still another picture of grace. Judah, like the other tribes, worshipped idols. Therefore, they too deserved destruction. The basis of God's rejection of Israel was Israel's rejection of God. God, in His compassion for Judah and the whole human race, delivered on His promise of a Savior anyway. God cannot lie or renege on a prophecy/promise:

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

--that would be Gospel.

[Action Dave]

I don't even have kids and I pay taxes for public schools.

[flabum1017]

I don't even have kids and I pay taxes for public schools.


I don't own property, but pay property taxes thru my rent.

[flabum1017]

ActDave--
Flabum--
Scripture has one author, God. "All Scripture is God breathed..."(2Tim 3:16)How do you explain the continuity over the 1500 or so years it took to write Scripture?:




But how did it come to print and whose interpretation is it? It has come to print by humans....... everyone interprets it differently. And since humans are inherantly sinners, the interpretations, logically, are not to be trusted since selfish humans transcribed it. Who knows, maybe people like Hillary Clinton or Osama Bin Laden transcribed it for us......scary thought there.

[jmg944t]

Mseth,
You mentioned that Jacob lived some time around 2000BC. Could you please be more specific? I mean exactly specific. What time of exactly what day was he born and EXACTLY when did he die? I only ask because for someone so important written about in an infallible book that information must be around... After all it is the book of answers right?

[WILDMAN]

Yeah! POOF, today we're gonna make people! What a bunch of CRAP!!

[Action Dave]

Yeah! POOF, today we're gonna make people! What a bunch of CRAP!!

I've never heard it summed up so elegantly.:)

[msethsmile]

JMG--
God leaves out alot of 'important' info. The day the earth will end for example. God leaves out the detail of much of Cain's and Esau's descendants. Why? Its not relevant to salvation. The promise of a Savior was thru Seth not Cain, Jacob not Esau.The purpose of Scripture is to save souls--

1 Timothy 2:4 God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

John 20:31 These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The exact time and place (GPS coordinates?) of Jacob's birth were deemed by God to be unimportant for salvation and not recorded.

Wildman--
"Yeah, today we're gonna make people! What a bunch of crap!"
vs.
"Yeah, today matter appeared out of nowhere! What a bunch of crap!"---Evolution is another religion, taught in public schools.

CDave--
I pay for education twice.

Flabum--
I think we may be on different wavelengths. This passage is clear on who wrote Scripture:

2 Peter 1:21 Prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

God used many scribes (I don't know the exact #) over the centuries. These include Moses, Kings David and Soloman, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, John, etc. These people wrote down God's thoughts/wishes. God controlled what was written as well as what went into the Canon (66 Books of the Bible). Scripture is God's interpretation. The author of a letter gets to interpret his own letter and its meaning. The author knows his own intent. God wrote Scripture, His letter to man. Any other interpretation is not valid. There a 6 billion people in the world and I suppose 6 billion different interpretations, all of which are not valid. I do not have the right or the ability to interpret Scripture. Scripture interprets Scripture.

GPrace--
Genesis specifically says 7, 24 hour days. Christ testified to the validity of Genesis. You cannot mix Evolution w/ Genesis. Truth mixed with untruth is? Example: Evolution says death occured from the git go. Evolution is built upon death. Genesis says death never occured until Adam sinned. Genesis originally was built on life. Man corrupted that. God restores life (fixes the problem) thru Christ.
Ultimately, the Gospel will be lost as with any heresy.

[Hydrophobic guy]

We're all just an alien science experiment. ;)

[sho305]

Lol, I think our day is 24hours, but if God did it who says he had the same day size as we do? In fact if the planet was not even here before he did it...why would he?

Fact is I was not here and so I don't know. It is one of those things I really don't care about because there is not yet a way to know what happened for sure. So if anyone tells me we were created X way, I say ok whatever. The Bible is so vague on this subject it could be interpreted any way you want, so I don't really see it being very relevant to specifics of exactly what happened. Science can say X happened, and who is to say if an entity did or did not make that happen? How would one know if things were just set in motion by something or not?

I just watched a show saying life likely started here from comets that had bacteria in their ice....did God throw those comets here?

I think people should know the information we have from where ever it came from, but in reality I don't care. Kids should be taught so they can discuss and understand others in their lives and not be idiots on the subject. IMO it is more important to keep criminals from killing people, to educate the people, etc, etc, etc; then to worry about something there is no way of knowing. Either way you and me are still here and have to live on this rock.

We don't even use the same language as the Bible was written in, so technically there are few people in the USA who have even read what was written....and I hear parts of it are not even in the Bible....some MAN decided what would go in the Bible and what would not, just like some MEN who have done really nice things in a church. Some churches kept slave labor until the 1980s as I recall. Any time man gets in the equation, you better take it with a grain of salt. I have no problem with the Bible, it is full of good things but don't try to take writing that old that has been handled and converted and who knows what, and then make some detailed story out of it. Most people were not even literate back then. Or, you could study some Chinese religious materials and then tell me why God wrote the same exact things there too, and as I recall long before the Bible was written. Because maybe someone copied it into Latin later and called it the Bible? Maybe and maybe not, I really don't care because for the most part the Bible is full of good material IMO. And yes, I was raised with it.

Hey, I thought the world ended on New Year 2000? Did I miss it when all the computers crashed and the spaceship picked everyone up? People sure make up some weird stuff, I think maybe they are bored and need to go to work or get a hobby. If they spent half that energy helping their family or friends or the needy....holy smokes what would happen?

[stevek]

I don't get the debate, but then I don't live in the bible belt. Evolution is based on science and intelligent design is a philosophy.

[WILDMAN]

I believe in common sense. I don't believe in something just because someone wrote it in a book. I'm no follower!

[flabum1017]

The debate is, on one side you have a group of people who blindly follow the bible that is loosely translated a million times from ancient scriptures that are in a language hat can be interpeted a million different ways. This group of people are not allowed or have no interest in questioning what is written. what it boils down to is magic and miracles.

On the other side, you have a group of people who want concrete answers and aren't afraid to ask questions.


Neither side wants the schools to teach their children the others' beleifs.


Me, I need proof....I cannot blindly follow.

[Riverman]

Neither side wants the schools to teach their children the others' beliefs.That is OK. As long as the official line is to teach from a scientific standpoint we are safe from turning into a theocracy where reason would be discounted in favour of superstition.
I'm really surprised the fanatics don't seem to recognize that the implementation of their ideals would result in our countries regressing into a well groomed version of Iran or Afghanistan.

[Riverman]

I don't get the debate, but then I don't live in the bible belt.I don't either, but you have to be very aware at how ruthless the fantics are, especially if you have young children. I can't count the number of school board meetings I attended and the amount of research I did and the number of speeches I wrote and presented when my boys were in grade school. They will try every angle to contravene the laws and get their warped version of reality pressed on impressionable children. School board members are mostly made of improperly chilled jello and will bend to the loudest voice. Ya gotta make yourself heard! ;)

[jmg944t]

I don't either, but you have to be very aware at how ruthless the fantics are, especially if you have young children. I can't count the number of school board meetings I attended and the amount of research I did and the number of speeches I wrote and presented when my boys were in grade school. They will try every angle to contravene the laws and get their warped version of reality pressed on impressionable children. School board members are mostly made of improperly chilled jello and will bend to the loudest voice. Ya gotta make yourself heard! ;)

So I have that to look forward too...

[sho305]

what it boils down to is magic and miracles.


Hey I could be wrong, but to me that is the last thing the Bible is about. Like most other common religions the Bible is about how to live in society....much of it is very similar to other books of religion. IMO much of that stuff is not taught in other places and I'd be happy to live around people that know it. Just gives a greater chance they might be better people, but of course there are all kinds everywhere it seems. There is no way IMO you can take it word for word and I don't see that I am supposed to. It is a teaching tool, not a blueprint. You know what 2+2 is, but you were taught to figure out what 254,690+199,432 is. I'm really not sure why they get all hung up on creation, then again I do know why the libs get hung up on eradicating religion.

And they get hung up, take a look at this: http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2008/02/hudsonville_asked_to_remove_go.html Not even from this state! IMO this country was founded on it and if you can't stand the word God printed someplace, you can leave (and you better not use the money). I'm to the point that I'm tired of these liberal nazis, I want more religion just to po them. Same for all this PC garbage the media spreads. It does not make people accepting like you need in a mixed society, it makes people divide. Just the opposite of what the liberals profess they want.

Maybe religion is a LIFESTYLE....what do you libs have to say about that? lol!:D

Maybe we should see what Nostradamus says about it...lol. I am talking about religion here in the US, and not recruiting. People don't seem to realize that in a place like the Middle East, it is much different than here. Much different.

[Riverman]

what do you libs have to say about that?What's a lib? I don't get it.

[msethsmile]

Hydro-
Earth a science experiment? Read Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (D Adams)--funny as hell. The real answer to this debate and 'thumpers' is 42.

Wild--
Don't follow anyone? There is good and evil. Always has been (on earth), always will be, no in between. That's it:

Luke 16:13 (Christ said), "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

flabum--
I've already given the case for Scripture and proper (reliable) interpretation. You continue on the zillion translation and zillion interpretation gig because it suits you:

Luke 16:31 (Jesus said), "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

--do your homework. Read the Prophets. Did their predictions come true 100% of the time? Has Tyre ever been rebuilt? No, as prophesied. Has Egypt ever returned to a world power? No, as prophesied. Has there been more than 4 world powers? No, as prophesied. Read Psalm 22 (written 1000 BC) and Isaiah 53 (700 BC). It is as if David and Isaiah were standing at the foot of the cross, centuries later.

River--
You continue on this Christian anti-science/intolerance trek. Bull. I have given plenty of evidence otherwise. George Will once said Christ made democracy possible. How is it that in barely over 200 years, the U.S. as a mostly Christian nation has led in scientific achievement, military, economics, world aid, and yes tolerance. Freedom. Would this have been true if we were founded on Islam? Atheism? Get real. True science and tolerance belong in my corner, sorry.

[Riverman]

Total BS. Have you read your own constitution? It says otherwise. Have you heard what your founding fathers thought of superstition? Very little. The US is a secular nation as is Canada. Sure, you can pretend otherwise, and I have nothing against that. Fill your boots.

Remember, scripture can't be used as evidence because it is based on superstition. I can understand why you can't get your head around that, I really do, but that doesn't stop it from being factual.

You should try reading the Supreme Court judgement of Murray vs. Curlett.

I am not intolerant. I have nothing against Christians, I have been in churches for weddings, rummage sales and fall suppers. I will not (I should say "did not" - my sons are now grown and are true athiests) however tolerate superstitution in public schools, or any teaching to my family of farce over fact. It is personal to me, just like your faith is to you.

[sho305]

George Will once said Christ made democracy possible. How is it that in barely over 200 years, the U.S. as a mostly Christian nation has led in scientific achievement, military, economics, world aid, and yes tolerance. Freedom. Would this have been true if we were founded on Islam? Atheism? Get real. True science and tolerance belong in my corner, sorry.

This is what I mean, well said. Even if you don't like it or agree with it, you can not refute the success of it. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the success of this place for my family. Even if I did not like Christianity, I would get along with it for that reason....you have to do very little to do that here and have the freedom to do so. I see what I think is the point of Christianity, and sure it has its faults like anything, but think the positive outweighs the negative by far and by proof. Nobody said you had to knock on every door on your street and sell it to them.

Some people NEED the support and direction of religion, why would you want to deprive them of that? If it makes them a better person, who cares? Even if it is all superstition, that part is pretty harmless...it does not tell you to go out and cut off people's heads like some other cults do.

Lib=liberal. You know; the ones who want illegals here and to vote as citizens (while they say they can close the borders but refuse to do a thing about it, lol!), the ones who think nobody out there will hurt us if we are nice to them, the ones who think drugs are ok and then make tv shows showing the addicts trying to kill themselves while their family cries. They want to ban religion that helped build this country and advocate daily many things that tear it down. The proof is plain to see. Hedonism has never been very successful anywhere. They push and push for minorities to not integrate into society; but to celebrate their differences, their culture and beliefs and history....yet you can not do that if you are Christian? What is that? We have to print government forms in Spanish, have programs to support all the other minority stuff they pack into the budget but the libs want to outlaw the word God? If religion is not a lifestyle they so strongly support in other forms, what is it? This issue is just liberal bs, that is what it is. They think people like that will vote for them, and it seems to work. Less education is also part of the plan.

In the end I see it as teamwork. It sets a standard for the people to rise to and enables them to do more, to do better. Maybe you figured that out on your own and don't need it, but some people don't. I would rather live with more that do get it. I'll accept nearly any tool that helps.

I was raised with it so I did not have a choice. So my option is to fight/refute it, but I see it as a pointless endeavor for the above reasons. I like the results.

[Riverman]

I said nothing about "banning religion" that is as impossible as banning stupidity. It can't be done.

I'm only talking about public schools here. Facts belong in schools, superstitions belong in church. There are lots of churches, look around, probably twice as many churches as schools. Schools have to remain secular because not everybody in public school is Christan. Here in Canada the last census showed that the number of people "without religion" was approaching 25%, the largest group excepting Catholics. In our city there are Muslim, Christian and Jewish schools for those who put faith first, we have a right to do that. But there is no place for it in public schools.

[sho305]

That is true to a point, but I don't agree with rewriting history to get rid of it. It is embedded in US history, its on the money, its in the pledge and the liberals hate that. They cite the same reasons as you for getting rid of it. I say if you want to educate the children in the school, you better tell them why it is there and what effect it had. You don't need to convert them to X religion, but they should know about it because it was/is here. Science and education examines everything, not just what some group wants it to....but they still try.

On the other hand the liberals that run the public education here just plain suck, and resist all attempts to improve learning. It is a sick situation for a country supposedly so great as this. Another reason I don't think so highly of them; how can you support poor education???? They do.

People learn from mistakes and need history to do that, the true history. You would be amazed at what is not in history books at our schools, or books that are not there.

[Riverman]

It was put in the pledge and on the money for the same reason at about the same time - as an affront to communism during the cold war. It had nothing to do with the founding of your country. A lot of people think (were taught) athiesm and communism are the same thing when they actually have no relationship at all.

[jmg944t]

"under god" was added to the pledge in the 50's.

It is sad that in the time of the most discovery, knowledge and advancement that people are so willing to slap it in the face. Very very sad that peole need that (superstition) in their lives to feel special.

[sho305]

If it is not harmful, I don't care what superstition people need. That is what freedom of religion is.

Is it better to go to a shrink and get the same thing? Take a pill? What?

[msethsmile]

River & IMG--
We must have facts/science in our schools and no superstition/religion!
Well said. Please complete this sentence with a straight face; Matter originally came from ________. That sentence cannot be completed with facts or science. That would leave something else. Evolution stands as a religion, taught in the schools. But we can't have another religion, Christianity. Freedom of religion for thee but not for me. Either teach Christianity (& others) in public schools or don't tax me for those same schools.

Scripture is superstition? Please explain how the Prophets were incredibly good (100%) guessers of events centuries later. Some continuing to be true to this very day. Tyre has never been rebuilt. Never is a long time. Egypt has never been a world power since prophecied. Never is a long time. How can someone predict only 4 world powers during the first power? Why not 3 or 5? 4 is correct. Here's an excerpt fom Psalm 22, written roughly 1000 B.C.:

Psalm 22:1ff My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him....a band of evil men has encircled me, They have pierced my hands and feet...They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing....future generations will be told about the LORD. They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn-for he has done it.

Verse 1 was spoken by Christ on the cross. Everyone there who knew the Old Testament understood exactly what Christ was saying. He was fulfilling Psalm 22. The prophecy is like Matthew's (ch27) and John's (19) eyewitness accounts. The latter part is fulfilled at your reading this passage.

Psalm 22 is the heart of the Gospel. God forsook perfect Christ instead of sinful man. Hell is defined as separation from God. Christ suffered our hell on the cross, man received Christ's righteousness. The great exchange. Where there is forgiveness there is eternal life.

River--
Don't take the anti-science personally. 100% of athiests are not anti-science. 100% of Christians are not pro-science. As a general rule, it holds true. Science and tolerance are in my corner.

Recent poll showed U.S. 78% Christian. Agreed, we get more secular by the day, even the church!