14' Alli

[flabum1017]

My boss just got a 14' allison with a 1975 75 15" Johnson Stinger. Motor is bolted directly to the transom and the water pickups are about 4" above the pad. i suppose he will have to put a nosecone with a LWP for this.


Any setup suggestions? Props, setback and height........ tank and battery location .......etc.......

[Raceman]

It's pretty amazing how high those engines usta' run back then with NO low water pickups or nose cones. The way you're describing this one sounds exactly like the way the EP boats ran......... every one of em. Even the 15 & 16 Ally's and other JP boats with 1500 Short Mercs ran high like that. Mine ran about an inch up on the transom with no jackplate, and the water pickups were as high as you described. Back then nobody ran water pressure guages on the raceboats, so we may've all had em right on the ragged edge of fryin' without realizing it, but at the speeds these boats ran, especially the 3 cyls, the boats weren't completely off the water, so got by somehow.

I'd throw a WP guage on that boat and run it like it is and see what's there.

[97mirage]

flabum1017:

Just curious about the boat that you just described (i.e. 14' Allison w/ 75 Stinger)...where did your boss purchase the boat from? There is (or was) a set up just like that in PA...did it come from PA? Just curious...Thanks.

[largecar91]

I saw one on Craigs list in Oklahoma the other day. It way a 72 14' allison with a 75 stinger.

[Jason Johnson]

I have not yet installed the LWP lower unit on mine. I run my motor real high. And at 70.5 mph

[flabum1017]

It's the one from Oklahoma...had it shipped down here. Red and white...

[hsbob]

be careful but try it without the lwpu. i had a 150 omc that never required a lwpu. when i put a merc on the same JP i started overheat the motor. dont know what the real differencs were in the lu but it may work. those little 75 are real hi speed [for their size] motor but low on bottom end torque. bob jacabson use them in seattle on tunnels.

[99fxst99]

Post us some pictures!!!

[flabum1017]

Will post pics soon.... it has not been touched yet, but knowing my boss and who he has working for him.....this will become one of the cherriest of all 14's

[Jason Johnson]

With a good 75, set up right, light on the mods, what kind of speed can be achieved?

[specboatops]

It's pretty amazing how high those engines usta' run back then with NO low water pickups or nose cones. The way you're describing this one sounds exactly like the way the EP boats ran......... every one of em. Even the 15 & 16 Ally's and other JP boats with 1500 Short Mercs ran high like that. Mine ran about an inch up on the transom with no jackplate, and the water pickups were as high as you described. Back then nobody ran water pressure guages on the raceboats, so we may've all had em right on the ragged edge of fryin' without realizing it, but at the speeds these boats ran, especially the 3 cyls, the boats weren't completely off the water, so got by somehow.

I'd throw a WP guage on that boat and run it like it is and see what's there.

Was set back needed on say the 15 or the 16 you mention? and if so then theoretically the motor's could have gone even higher ??

[Raceman]

Back in the early/mid 70's when these classes were the most popular i don't think anybody had thought of setback yet. Everybody ran em on the transom and just played with transom height. I remember seeing Doug Pearl's J Sport boat at the national with a pile of paint sticks that were like 1/8" thick under the engine. That's how critical his transom height adjustment was on that tunnel.

Back to the V's, when I bought my first one, a 15 Ally with a short pre-XS 1500 on it, they'd actually added a 1" wedge on the back edge of the boat, effectively lengthening the bottom by that much. The boat had been owned by a 275 lb driver and he campaigned it out of Bateman Marine in Augusta, who had a whole stable of these boats that he'd set up for people who were racing J Production. The previous owner of my boat told me that the extra bottom length made it handle better in rough water. It was glassed on wood and I took it off, but didn't have any before and after comparisons, since I couldn't half drive it when I first bought it anyway.

I remember when I first put the 12" champ mid section on the little ally with the 1750 V6 powerhead. One of the old Merc guys told me to be REAL careful because the extra 2" of setback made into the mid would make it easier to blow over. Back then the only 3 boats I ever saw running with those mids were mine, Benny Robertson's, and a privateer in SE Ga. I'd actually run the boat with a cut down 20" mid before the champ, and think I had the first cut down V6 mid, and probably first V6 powered 15/16 Ally in the world, since I did it with a brand new '76 model production 1750 soon after they were introduced.

[specboatops]

very interesting read. But I am curious to your opinion as to adding set back to them ( to gain performance/top end ) or would you think bolted to the transom and play with engine height NOW after everything you know would be better, in essence, If YOU were to rig one today, say with one of your many 1500xs's would you put it to the transom, or would you add setback?

[specboatops]

Been waiting ALL weekend for you to reply as to YOUR opinion on this, I'm not asking a lot here, I need to re-rig and I know you have good knowledge of these types of boats with the inline power so what gives, you watch these boards like a hawk so I know you see this, before I thought you never answer my questions because I wasn't a paying member, as you see I've corrected that.......so crack your knuckles and get to typing:D :D

[flabum1017]

hey, this is my thread and my answers haven't all been anwered yet either :eek: ......quit complaining and get your own thread :rolleyes:

:D :D :D :D :D

[specboatops]

Well it looked like a good thread to jump in on:eek: :D so I started asking question's ......the squeaky wheel gets the grease.......so Raceman what do I have to do... beg :) this will take all of 30 seconds of your time, show us your a TEAM player here:)

[MN4V]

My brother had a 13' Allison he ran in FE. If I remember right most boats ( V bottom or tunnel) ran the center of the bullet about 1" below the bottom. This was because the boat had to turn, not just go in a straight line. It was also this height because it gave the best acceleration out of the corners. Go to high and your spinning your wheels. In FE we used the OMC (no hub) 13 x 23 race prop. I never saw Allison's use set back brackets in FE or FJ.

I did see set backs used in 1973 by Larry Guimond on his FJ Vampire boat. Guess it made his boat work better. I still have a set of those old home made ones.
Mark N

[specboatops]

My brother had a 13' Allison he ran in FE. If I remember right most boats ( V bottom or tunnel) ran the center of the bullet about 1" below the bottom. This was because the boat had to turn, not just go in a straight line. It was also this height because it gave the best acceleration out of the corners. Go to high and your spinning your wheels. In FE we used the OMC (no hub) 13 x 23 race prop. I never saw Allison's use set back brackets in FE or FJ.

I did see set backs used in 1973 by Larry Guimond on his FJ Vampire boat. Guess it made his boat work better. I still have a set of those old home made ones.
Mark N

interesting, of these boats you speak of were not going roundy round and were just looking for fast straightline speed how high on the transom would they be AND would set back help or hinder there performance in your opinion??

[MN4V]

Usually set back was used to help trim the boat easier or to help balance the weight better. The Allison's probably did not use them because the boat was already balanced perfect for competition with the motor on the transom.
Remember that the farther back you go with the motor the higher it needs to go to have the prop the same height in the water. Also when the boat sets ( bow down) the prop goes up!! So the prop is higher in the turn then on the straight away! Not really the best setup for comp. I don't think set back helps speed, it just changes the balance of the boat.
I'd leave it on the transom, the way the boat was designed.
Mark N
If you want to go high, it takes lots of testing to see how high you can go before you lose water pressure. Then I'd do lots of prop work for the best speed. Jerry at Airmarine can help with modifing your props. http://www.therightprop.com/ They do perfect work!

[etnprop]

not to add to the confusion but we have owned 14', 15' and 16' allisons rigged with everything from 40omc, SST 60, V-4 omc, 85-150XS mercs and always use a small jackplate to allow easy engine height adjustments and to run a variety of props, but we're just ridin' not racin'. I'd tend to agree with Mark if you are setting up to race...

[specboatops]

Usually set back was used to help trim the boat easier or to help balance the weight better. The Allison's probably did not use them because the boat was already balanced perfect for competition with the motor on the transom.
Remember that the farther back you go with the motor the higher it needs to go to have the prop the same height in the water. Also when the boat sets ( bow down) the prop goes up!! So the prop is higher in the turn then on the straight away! Not really the best setup for comp. I don't think set back helps speed, it just changes the balance of the boat.
I'd leave it on the transom, the way the boat was designed.
Mark N
If you want to go high, it takes lots of testing to see how high you can go before you lose water pressure. Then I'd do lots of prop work for the best speed. Jerry at Airmarine can help with modifing your props. http://www.therightprop.com/ They do perfect work!

I really appreciate your comments, been battling with set back dilema of my own, this helps put a few things into perspective for me, again thanks for the post.

[Jeff_G]

I don't recommend set backs on any of the 13-15 Allisons. They are just not needed.
The only time you would want a set back is an all out straight away speed run.
The 15 in particular runs better and faster in normal race use with no setback.
As for engine height you can jack the 75 OMC to the sky.
In Sport E which was a tunnel with a 75. We set the motor up so the bottom of the sponsons was even with the top of the lower unit drain screw on the bottom of the gearcase.
With the inline Mercury you can go quite a bit above the transom. As RM posted earlier we still use paint sticks for adjusting height. I am about 1 3/4 above the transom on my Allison.
Over the years a lot of guys have tried to race with set back brackets, none successfully.

[specboatops]

Jeff G,

Another great read, thank you. Guess I am going to ditch the set back on my Invader and go back to the transom, I keep battling with this, but after your comments, and others I guess its time to try something different. Any idea on where I want the height to be with the inline? you as well as others have mentioned the paint sticks, is this something that you added to the v's or was that purely for the tunnels?

[Raceman]

interesting, of these boats you speak of were not going roundy round and were just looking for fast straightline speed how high on the transom would they be AND would set back help or hinder there performance in your opinion??

Ahaha.................. I finally found the spot where you said I clammed up.

First the reason/excuse. I left last Thursday for Corvette show in Kissimmee, stayed through Saturday, went through Ocala on way back to HUGE Ford show, and got home after dark. No internet access in room, but did get on a few min's each day from wireless connect in hotel lobby. Only scanned boards and made a few quick posts. When I got in last night I had 87 E mails and some PM's too. I still haven't gotten through all of em.

I didn't subscribe to this thread and this is the first time I've looked at it again.

As for the Ally question, I still have a 16 Ally with a 1500XS. It's mounted right on the transom, but has about a 2" block. When I was still running inlines with big gearcases on the Ally's back in the 70's the XS gearcase hadn't come out yet, so we didn't run em quite as high as my present one is. I don't have any experience with setback on one, but mine seems very well balance without it, and carrying the bow is no problem, even with a cleaver, so I doubt I'd ever put it on one now, given the way I use the boat. There's nothing really to race it against, since the lake is full of V6 bassboats that are faster, so every last MPH isn't that important. If it was, I'd probably experiment at least. In the 70's I don't think I ever saw a JP or EP boat with any kind of setback on it.

[Jason Johnson]

To help answer the original question. I have 2" of set back. A 26 pitch cleaver. Center of bullet is parallel to the bottom. No low water pick up. 90hp yamai. shaved head, very light porting exhast only. no over heating trouble. 70.5mph on GPS so far. Bow lift is NOT a problem. The lower I float it the fast it has gone. Mine is 14' and pretty light. 12gal tank, stuffed in the back. Lawnmover battery in the back. LOVE IT

[specboatops]

Ahaha.................. I finally found the spot where you said I clammed up.

First the reason/excuse. I left last Thursday for Corvette show in Kissimmee, stayed through Saturday, went through Ocala on way back to HUGE Ford show, and got home after dark. No internet access in room, but did get on a few min's each day from wireless connect in hotel lobby. Only scanned boards and made a few quick posts. When I got in last night I had 87 E mails and some PM's too. I still haven't gotten through all of em.

I didn't subscribe to this thread and this is the first time I've looked at it again.

As for the Ally question, I still have a 16 Ally with a 1500XS. It's mounted right on the transom, but has about a 2" block. When I was still running inlines with big gearcases on the Ally's back in the 70's the XS gearcase hadn't come out yet, so we didn't run em quite as high as my present one is. I don't have any experience with setback on one, but mine seems very well balance without it, and carrying the bow is no problem, even with a cleaver, so I doubt I'd ever put it on one now, given the way I use the boat. There's nothing really to race it against, since the lake is full of V6 bassboats that are faster, so every last MPH isn't that important. If it was, I'd probably experiment at least. In the 70's I don't think I ever saw a JP or EP boat with any kind of setback on it.

Thank you Sir, I do appreciate YOUR input on these older V's as I know you have had them in your coral for a long Time, again.....Thank you!

Chris

[Jeff_G]

"you as well as others have mentioned the paint sticks, is this something that you added to the v's or was that purely for the tunnels?"

Each boat and motor combination will be a little different. I run my motor about 1 1/2" above the transom. I use the paint sticks as they are a fast and easy way to lift the engine by 1/8" at a time. When you race a boat you are looking for any advantage you can get. Depending on the water conditions you may raise or lower the motor as well.
I have found on my 15' Allison I leave it alone no matter the water conditions. In fact before I added the capsule I ran a thrust bracket and no trim and was faster.
It's all about handling and ET's. How fast you can get around the race course.
If I was to pleasure ride the boat I would lower the motor. If I was to drag race I would go higher still, and I may add some set back. The set back will allow for higher straight line speeds but the handling will suffer greatly.
To a certain extent putting the engine on the transom and lowering it although slower in a straight line will give you better handling and lower ET's.

[flabum1017]

Yep....time for a new core, floor and stringers...........

[Freddie Webb]

I have one exactly like that. They are a blast.

[shortshaft]

Saw one in the late seventies that had a stinger on a 14 ali ,but the strangest thing was screw type trim . Its was the only one I ever saw.

[flabum1017]

Saw one in the late seventies that had a stinger on a 14 ali ,but the strangest thing was screw type trim . Its was the only one I ever saw.


It is on this one

[Li'l Toy]

This is obviously an old EP (E Production, even earlier called FE or Family E) boat. In the mid-70s, trim was not allowed on any of the production hulls except the two person Family Ski boats. All we could use was a thrust block, referred to by Jeff earlier. This was a block mounted low on the transom that the front of the motor's lower unit rested against, setting the angle of the motor. On most of them, you change the angle by somehow screwing them in or out. I assume that's what you mean by "screw type trim."

These were used because they were more adjustable than just using the tilt pin on the motor, and they also supported the motor lower down so there was less leverage against the transom. We would also tie the motor to the thrust block with shock cord or rope so it could not tilt up if you got airborne and slam forward into the thrust block when it hit the water

I don't know that anybody really knew much about setback at that time. Some boats had a certain amount to build into their molding, but I don't think anybody at the time thought in terms of hanging a motor on some type of aluminum bracket 12 inches behind the transom.

[RogerH]

Hope you don't mind my butting in, but wanted to share a picture of the 49.9 cu.in OMC motor built by Tim Kurcz for the FE Hydro class (APBA NBRA). This type of LU probably wouldn't be the ticket on an Allison, but his kind of POWER sure would. I watched his winning FEH motor run at two different races last year, and it is producing Mondo power and speed.

[flabum1017]

I need one of those down here to scare off the mantees

[Mark75H]

the 49.9 cu.in OMC motor built by Tim Kurcz for the FE Hydro class (APBA NBRA)

Tim has been one of the big names for those motors in the class formerly known as FE. Last year for some reason unknown to me they voted to change the name to 850cc (really dumb because the largest motor allowed is actually 1015cc's). The other big wrench is Ed (the Sled) Runne

[flabum1017]

What prop was run on this boat with the 75 Stinger? What size Raker would work?

[Li'l Toy]

The only prop in EP was the Dave Henrich (sp?) 23

[PropHydro]

Raced in EP for 6 or so years in a 14 Allison and Critchfield.The 14 is a little different than the 13 with that extra foot of bow up front.You will not need any set back whatsoever,that bow will float real nice with that design in the front to hold the nose up.As far as engine height you will have to play a little and decide what you are going to carry weight wise in the boat.If its going to be a solo flyer you can jack it up real high until you run out of water psi.That particular year Stinger was the most desirable in the class because it had dome top pistons that gave it more compression than the other year Stingers.Being a stock class where you could not touch the motor this was the ticket if you could find one.We had shim sticks made up to put under the clamp bracket to adjust for height,loosen them up and pound another one in from the side,and you were adjusted.For racing we had the shims in 1/8" and 1/4" sizes depending on water conditions and course size.A cleaver is absolutely the way to go either a 22 or 23 pitch.You do not need any bow lifting props on this boat!! A Raker is the wrong way to go.If you are so inclined to play with the motor height set up in race trim run yourself an extension of rubber hose from the pee hole up the side of boat so you can see water coming out,I always trusted my eyes better than a gauge.If I can remember correctly from mounting position of motor we were about 1/2" to 3/4" up on the transom set up for racing,which is set up for not top end only but getting around the course efficiently and being able to go left when you needed to.Hope this helps and enjoy I wish I had mine back,just to make one more rip.
Todd

[flabum1017]

Here's a couple of pictures of the core going in:

[flabum1017]

Thanks for the responses. My boss said he had one some time ago and this one he intends to do a nice job on this one. He isn't looking to race it, but still wants to go fast but with more all-around performance. He wants better holeshot than what a cleaver will give him but still surface the prop for speed. Any ideas?

[Raceman]

but still wants to go fast but with more all-around performance. He wants better holeshot than what a cleaver will give him but still surface the prop for speed. Any ideas?

I'd try an inline Chopper.

[stylishskier]

Here's a couple of pictures of the core going in:

whats with the plywood core? Thought balsa was stronger and lighter?

[flabum1017]

whats with the plywood core? Thought balsa was stronger and lighter?
It originally had plywood in the last 3 - 4 feet of the boat and balsa from there forward. I am not involved in the decsision making of how and what materials. Not my boat.

I will be responsible for de-mothing the engine.

[flabum1017]

Upside down and primed. Seems the guy who put the hotfoot in used good, long screws and screwed it right through the bottom of the boat. :rolleyes:

[flabum1017]

All painted and ready to put back together:

[flabum1017]

Here's that adjustable trim block:

[flabum1017]

Been a while, but we do have real work to do from time to time.... here she is getting rigged. 18 Gal fuel tank, water press, water temp and a tach will go on top in a snorkle. Small battery up front, inline seating and of course, a hot-foot.

[Aqua]

Any more pic's available? What kind of performance numbers did you get?

[flabum1017]

He never ran it with a GPS, but it definately lays back the skin..........

[Jason Johnson]

Is the stinger stock? I want to see the gps speeds too. I can tell you where you could find a perfect prop for it, Datona Fl.
I love mine even more now that I have redone it. If I ever get a day off of work mabey I could ride again.

[Kathleen Michelle]

this is an excellent thread.

thanks.

nice boat if you ever get a video please post it.

[Ronny Jetmore]

The 1972 allison that i have (13r) that was supposedly some sort of a record holder, has the old screw-through trim, and it has an old nice looking, but homemade set back of about 6 inches or so. This is all original stuff i think. The pad was slightly widened and a little piece of trim was added to about the last 4 feet or so of the chines, presumably to turn better. I am curious why so much set back, unless it was purely a straight away boat, or the driver was heavy, i don't understand.

Summerford told in his experience, the 14 was better balanced than the 13.

Am still trying to find out whose boat this was. Thanks to raceman i talked to roark summerford and gave me info on who to talk to about knowing the history of the boat.

[LakeRacer99]

Interesting thots on jackplates. My 15 has the inline merc right on the transom, the clamp is on the glass. The motor is through bolted, so I gotta plug d holes to raise it. I had always planned an an allison bracket I have, it has maybe 2in of offset in it. I plan to use it, just to make switchin motors easier, since my old mills didnt standardize the bolt pattern till later.

Ronny, i think you said somewhere that your 13r was a yella one from TN. Who did you buy it from? I drug my old yella 13r from TN, to MO then sold it in CT.

[Ronny Jetmore]

mine was originally white and blue, then was painted silver, then white again with just a touch of blue.

i got mine from a friend who got it from his friends friend- seriously. i traced it back to a guy in the kent island area and i cant remember his name but i called him and he said he bought it frmo a "national champ" in the early 1980's out of tennessee but he could not remember the guys name. roark summerford told me to call rusty campbell and when i talked to rusty, he told me it was probably either joe mccally's boat (out of texas) or jay cox boat (out of maryville tenn).

have had no luck getting a good phone number on either. i talked to darris about it and he gave me some numbers but they were too old and no good. i think i'll ask baker or pipkorn because one of them might know. i guess i will also try the allison site. someone else suggested it might be joe burgess' boat, but rusty said all his boats were orange.

if you have any idea, let me know.

thanks

ronny