Looking for this Wing...

[LakeRacer99]

I am helping a friend try to find this boat. If you know where it might be or who to contact about it, Please let me know.
Thanks,
jason

[LakeRacer99]

...

[Mark75H]

Approximately what was the time frame this boat disapeared?

[Ron Hill]

I've been known to have been wrong before, but I'd bet this is a Switzer Wing. I can't recall what they called these, but they were considered the "New" Switzer Wing. Somewhere, I have a picture of T (Twin Engine) 108, it was origainally, dep yellow in color..again, I'll say, I could be wrong...but, I'd do some checking...

Add: Original Switzers had flat bottoms, the new style, had dihedral (Spelled wrong, I think) but not as much angle as the Schultz and Molinaris...

Somewhere, I have a picture of a black Switzer that Johnny Sanders "crashed" at Galveston one year...may be on www.babbitdesign.com...

[B. Vruwink]

Believe this to be second generation Switzer wing with square top cowles. Era---Late 60's or early 70's. Primary wing drivers of the time were Kenny Kitson from I believe St. Louis, Jan Schoonover from Ohio, Ernie Threkeld from believe Tennessee or Kentucky. Joe Habay drove one for a few races. The old round cowl boats were lighter and faster. My memory says that T108 was Kenny Kitson's number. Believe he either owned or was salesman at a Ford store in St. Louis. Don't know whether he is alive or deceased.

[Laker]

Check this out
http://www.hydrostream.org/GuestArchive/Wing.htm

Talk to mark and BK to find out where this photo was taken...
Im keeping my eyes open!:D

[baddjonny]

Take a look in fiberglassics photo section there's one in there rotting away in some marina don't know what state.
jon

[Mark75H]

That one has been sitting for much longer than Lakeracer99's friend's boat has been missing.


Lakeracer99...approximately when did your friend's boat disappear?

[LakeRacer99]

Hey guys thanks for the help so far. I posted this subject over on the glassics site also. The friend is a fellow I met on the internet whose boat was borrowed by a friend of his who dissapeared with it. I am guessing the timeframe to be within the last 10yrs. I asked him to reply to the messages left here but he must be very busy. I beleive the boat also had 1 if not 2 Twisters on it at the time.
Thanks,
jason

[David_L6]

Laker,

Is that the boat that some people suspect may have made it's way to Florida and that a guy (T.M.) either has or had it?

[PARKER RABE]

guys - i know where theres a switzerwing that has never been rigged , it a a place in boynton beach fl .....ive talked to the guy a few times , hes got 2 bps that are restored , 2 twister 1 2 twister 2 and he wants alot of money for the stuff , this is suposley some nice **** call me for details .
contact..parker rabe 727 347 0900 after 6pm eastern time .

[Mark75H]

Same guy sold a "never ran" Mark75H racer...or at least most of one, for $10,000 a couple years back. I have not been able to confirm the authenticity of that motor. I have reason to doubt it.

I seriously doubt there was a Switzer Wing that was not rigged and raced. I have read that the Switzers only made 67 of them.

[Raceman]

All I can say is be VERY CAREFUL down there..............be very, very careful.

The 75H in question was always represented as being "new, nos, never cranked, etc, etc. One of his close friends, who spends a lot of time there told me at the time not to make any offers on it, that it was built up from spare parts, not a complete factory engine and not even having a true H powerhead. I'm not stating this as first hand information, but the person who stated it did know the engine and this man first hand, and he's a long time, very knowledgeable member of AOMCI and probably has 100+ engines in his collection.

One thing that I can say first hand is that I personally had a ridiculous experience trying to buy a 650XS from him a couple of years ago. Not only did he sell it out from under me, telling me that his source never came through with it, but forgetting the lie several months later, he told me I should have bought it when he had it. This was an engine missing the gearcase and it was so referenced in the original and later phone conversations.

I've heard the new 75H tale, the new Switzer tale, and the new T2X parts tale, and several others, and there've been T2X cowls that were for sale, then not for sale. Only thing I can say for sure is that I won't be bothering him anymore.

[Laker]

David_L6
I really dont know anything about that picture other than its not very old and its at the IHR...
Next time I talk to bobby switzer I will ask him. Perhaps he can at least shed some light on the subject as one of those restored with Twisters........ Oh mama! That would be somthing to charge admission to see!!!:D

[WharfRat]

saw this on the APBA classifed ads page

FOR SALE - - SWITZER WING - Rare late 1960s 18’ step bottom, double cockpit boat with original small tandem wheel trailer, set up for inline Mercs, ready to restore - $8,600.00. Can deliver. Call Wayne, Long Beach, CA.
562-498-9260

[Bruster]

I saw this boat last march in B.B. Fla. I don't think it is the same one. This guy has a bunch of stuff, but it is impossible to buy something from him... person to person. I understand over the phone is worse, much worse. Best bet is to STAY AWAY!!! He does have Twisters and Twister II's. That is why I was there. There is a TII he wanted $3500 for. I just couldn't get comfortable with what he had or what he claimed it was inside.

[insptech]

Looks like we need a confab or something on these wing things:D

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33544

[Mark75H]

Mr T2x from the offshore board has a bunch of his Switzer facts mixed up. A lot of enthusiasm and not enough research.

The first Wing was made in 1961, not 1958 and ran 80hp's with Speedmasters. The first one set up like the main run of them wasn't wet tested until the fall of 1962.

The reason they are so hard to find is there were so few made. 67 in all. The first 5 were wood, all the rest were glass.

The molds were destroyed in the fire. There was no point in recreating them at that time, they were obsolete on the race course.

Two of them did carry more than 300hp (2 times 150hp). Those 2 had triples set up on them. Set up light with triples they ran just shy of 120mph. My guess their regular competiton speed was under 100 mph.

The boats that the makers vowed not to continue production on for safety reasons were the DeSilva Wings. The DeSilvas were faster and I suspect much lighter.

[T2x]

Originally posted by Mark75H
Mr T2x from the offshore board has a bunch of his Switzer facts mixed up. A lot of enthusiasm and not enough research.

.

;) ;) ;) ;)

T2x

[2us70]

Back in the 60s there were tales that Johnny Bakos got one of the wooden wings up to 127 mph at Lake X. I don't know if this is true since the outright outboard record at that time was slower than that.I can't imagine Carl K passing up an advertising opportunity like that.

[lilabner]

I was at Galveston in the pits..the crash happened right in front of me..saw the whole thing..happened just like Ron said...That was one of the best cat shootouts I ever saw...unfortunatly the next day in our GN race we lost someone..five boats flipped in 10 minutes it seemed and they ran out of rescue and medical people...I saw them beating on the guys chest and loading him in a van while I suited up..We were third at the time in a Mandella..
then the steering broke...it was a rough day..

[Ron Hill]

Seems we'd had enough on Saturday...

The two guys behind the boat.... BIll Wiles (Deceased) and behind him is Ronnie Jones... (I'm pretty sure)...Bill Cooper won the Twin engine race that year...in a Ron Jones, pickle fork..

[Mark75H]

Ron it is the post from 09-24-2003 10:38 PM EDT in this thread:

Skip Talbot (http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=320575&highlight=fredddy#post320575)

I could only find it faster than you because I had copied and saved the text and you had mis-spelled "Freddy" in it. Searching for the particular mis-spelling zeroed in on it. If you start using spell check I'm lost ... :)

[Mark75H]

Thanks! That is an interesting new bit of information.

Is it still true that the other Wing molds were in fact lost in the fire?

And is the quanity I quoted correct or nearly so?

Since you are getting the information first hand, it is much better than my sources.

[Powercat]

Originally posted by Mark75H
Thanks! That is an interesting new bit of information.
Is it still true that the other Wing molds were in fact lost in the fire?
And is the quanity I quoted correct or nearly so?
Since you are getting the information first hand, it is much better than my sources.
Sam:
What follows is what I cut&pasted from Bob Switzers email
concerning the Switzer production... The only question it doesn't
answer is about the loss of the 20ft molds...
I find it interesting that so many of the boat manufacturers from
this period had plant fires... Power Cat, Switzer, Avenger, all in
the same period of time .... I know that after we had the fire
at Power Cat the local fire codes were changed drastically for
our type of business and they would not let us build without a
full sprinkler system in the building....
Danny Leger
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
4 point hydro Switzer we named the "Hydro Cat"! Shortly after June of 61 the year U-4 was built in 8 days flat,
and went on to win the Winabago marathon. We kept on developing that concept of boat. I think 6 wood models in
all were developed including the # 7000, and one just like it.
A year of so after we sold the U-4 to a guy out in Ca. it was returned for some repair work. We made a deal with the owner
of the U-4 to cast a mold off of his boat in exchange for replacing his wooden hull with a glass hull.
He agreed, that was the beginning of the first 18ft. Switzer Hydro Cat, soon to be renamed the Switzer Wing, for short.

As I said, we built a few of them and they were doing so good that Mr. Kiekahafer,wanted to control who they were
being sold to, so he offered to purchase the molds in exchange for an initial order for 30 boats. So, I figure, we must
have made about 10 before we sold the molds to Mercury, hence 40 18's in all.

Now, we were being asked to supply the OMC camp with Wings, and we couldn't, because of our deal.
So we developed the 20 footer, and I will be the first to admit it was probably years ahead of it's time.
We used a wing foil that was good for higher speeds than the engines of that day were capable of.
Hence, we only made 20, 20 footers. One of which was fitted with 3 Merc engines that won the unlimited class in the
Miami Marine Stadium. My guess would be in the early 70's. Funny thing, that boat with 3 motors clocked out at 102 mph.
and with the center engine removed, she hit 112 mph. Show's to go ya! how much a clean hull shape may mean more than just brut H.P.
Bob Switzer 14Oct2003

[Old fiberglass]

Sam,

I don't pretend to be the wing expert by any means. I think Danny pretty much answered your questions. Bob Switzer seemed to think maybe they actually made 42 18 footers when I asked him, but was firm about only making only 20 of the 20'. So, from what I know your total production numbers were pretty much right on.

The reason Switzer made the 20 footers was they were locked into a deal with Mercury for the 18', offically name Hydro Cat. So, it was felt they were losing $$$ and customers not being able to sell the 18 foot wings to the general public. Hence they designed and made the 20' that no one seemed to get to run as quickly as the 18'.

Bob Switzer indicated the death of the wings was because the twin engine race boats were a dieing breed by the time the early 70's rolled around. So, development for such boats stopped.

[PARKER RABE]

damn we might of found it ?

[Fish]

looking forward to the pics John.

[Ron Hill]

Seems to me that the leading edge of the wing would show signs of two gearcases going through it...Where are the pictures???

[Old fiberglass]

It also looks like the Mertens boat still had the seam between the hull and deck. You can see this by the rubber trim running under the wings leading edge boot. Does yours still have the hull/deck mating flange ?? It's tough to believe the boat pictured was repaired after that seeing that picture.

[2us70]

Could it be Jock Horner's boat? I heard a story that Jock's wing wound up with a pair of Chryslers on it and was wrecked at Smith Mountain Lake in the 6 hour Marathon Nationals. If you come across the name " El Lobo" under all that paint the mystery will be solved.

[outboard bob]

It also looks like the Mertens boat still had the seam between the hull and deck. You can see this by the rubber trim running under the wings leading edge boot. Does yours still have the hull/deck mating flange ?? It's tough to believe the boat pictured was repaired after that seeing that picture.
Old Fiberglass how are you... Could you ask the fiberglass repair person that repaired Bobby Massy's boats I beleive that his name is Roger Hoover, if Bobby Massy had another wing besides Kitsons red metal flake one that you have. This is what we are looking at. It would be very helpful in verifing exactly what boat that John has. Thank you. Bob Valachovic

[Old fiberglass]

Bob,

Yes, he had a white one with a metallic stripe. Not sure if it the stripe was gold or not. Rodger recently told me the white one was sold because it had bad cracks in it. I'm trying to get further clarification for John. Just got off the phone with John an hour or so ago.

I'm still waiting for the aileron dimensions and pictures you promised me :rolleyes:

Rick Connolly

[Ron Hill]

Ted May lead Havasu the frist two hours in 1966 with an old White/light yellow wing...In '67 Ted ran the same boat and it sank in the first hour. Bobby Massey bought it from OMC at the price of hauling it home...In the spring of 1968, Bobby won the Parker 9 Hour, outboard division with this same boat.

The next year, Bobby raced a red Wing, but by Parker of 1969, Bobby ran a triple 22 foot Jones, which he blew over and broke his pelvis...

The red wing, ended upa at Pete Dawson's Marina in Elsinore and I helped sell it to a dude from Arizona. Pete thought Massey had been killed in that wing. But I told Pete that Bobby was killed, at Elsinore, in a twin engine Molinari...

If the wing John is trying to restore hads a replace pickel fork, it could be the old "FLYING COFFIN" of Ernie Trikle's (Spelled that name wrong again)... Ernie blew his wing half over with OMC power, the boat stalled and then nose dived and broke one fork off. I also broke Ernie's leg or legs...Ted March, my partner on www.******************** signed Ernie into the hospitaland guaranteed his medical bills after the blow over. OMC never talked to Ernie after the accicdent...Ted is bitted at OMC today...some 38 years later...

Ernie's expenses were paid by insurance, but it was his teaching insurance that paid the bills.

This wing could be Ernie's..
Ron

[Old fiberglass]

Ron, Might want to add an (a) to your web link in your post it'll work better. "A Dude from Arizona" - Rick Connolly ;)

[outboard bob]

Bob,

Yes, he had a white one with a metallic stripe. Not sure if it the stripe was gold or not. Rodger recently told me the white one was sold because it had bad cracks in it. I'm trying to get further clarification for John. Just got off the phone with John an hour or so ago.

I'm still waiting for the aileron dimensions and pictures you promised me :rolleyes:

Rick Connolly
You know i could have swore that i sent you those things. I do not have the boat here right now. As soon as i do i will send M.R. Connolly these things. How is the craft coming along .

[Old fiberglass]

Bob, Thanks for the reply. I honestly don't recall ever getting anything. Whatever you can do would be great. The wing project got stalled, life gets in the way of the fun stuff sometimes. It's resting comfortably inside my shop and I hope to get rolling on it this fall. - Rick

[outboard bob]

I have to say that you did the right thing Rick. You let this stuff run your life and you will be a Big Looser real quick. Friends and Family first. That boat will be there to rebuild and run at any time. Thanks for the info for John's boat.

[gemini]

If the 108T Wing hasn't been ID I think it was William Flaggs boat from the Merc Distributer Bill Bell in Dallas. I was at the Galveston Race and most of the existing Wings crashed there. Too bad but the Tunnel Boat was the boat of choice after that.

[T2x]

John:

Your boat sounds like this one..........

T2x

[T2x]

If the wing John is trying to restore hads a replace pickel fork, it could be the old "FLYING COFFIN" of Ernie Trikle's (Spelled that name wrong again)... Ron


It's Threlkeld....and, apparently, he burned his wing in a divorce dispute.

T2x

[T2x]

Old Fiberglass how are you... Could you ask the fiberglass repair person that repaired Bobby Massy's boats I beleive that his name is Roger Hoover, if Bobby Massy had another wing besides Kitsons red metal flake one that you have. This is what we are looking at. It would be very helpful in verifing exactly what boat that John has. Thank you. Bob Valachovic


Here's the red one.... as both Kitson and Massey raced it.


T2x

[rnelems]

I think Ernie and Kenny and Bob were at the Allison reunion with Miss Diablo. Maybe Ernie can chime in here. This site is a wealth of knowledge for the few of us who still revel in the mystique of the Switzer Wing.

[Old fiberglass]

TX2 - I think you have your facts wrong about Kenny Kitson's ~ Bobbie Massey's red wing. It was never black. The boats originial gel coat color is red metal flake. Only two 18' HydroCats/wings where ever made this color per Bob Switzer. Anyway when I talked to Kenny I'm 99% sure it was red when he turned it back to Merc for the now famous black Miss Diablo III. When I talked to Kenny he confirmed his first one was red and told me some unique things to the boat I have that seemd to make it a match. During this conversation is when I realized both Kenny and Bobbie owned this same boat.

Bobbie raced the wing in the originial red color as seen in the picture you posted. Then at some point in time he painted it yellow.

So, my point is you have posted pictures of two different boats and stated they are the same one.... not so to the best of my knowledge. The black one is the one Bob has restored.

Bob do you have any input on this topic ??

[outboard bob]

The red T119 with the white stripe was the boat that Kenny turned back in to go with a lighter one. This boat is red metal flake and has the front center of the wing finished off to a point. The black boat that I have has the T at an angle as it was when Kenny raced it. It also has the center of the wing finished to a point. The black T119 #3 boat was lighter.The T119 #3 is also the boat that Kenny Kitson has engraved on his pre arranged headstone today. These boats were the property of MR Kiekhaefer and the red one that Bobby Massy had was purchased from Mercury by Bobby and the one that I have was given to Kenny Kitson personally by Carl Kiekhaefer for the acheivements that he accomplished with it.

[outboard bob]

I beleive that the boat that John has is the omc massy boat also .I have said to John whyand i am going to have him come to the final conclusion and pronounce it so if it is indeed this craft.

[Old fiberglass]

Bob - Thanks for the info.... good stuff. I got a reply from Rodger, but didn't have too much info which I passed onto John. I asked Rodger a few more questions. One thing I've learned is it takes time for folks memory banks to get warmed up ! It's been 32 ~ 40 years.

[Old fiberglass]

Dumb question. When you say #3 boat can you clarify that ?? Rick

[outboard bob]

Miss Diablo #3

[outboard bob]

I don't see where Rich Lours said that the red wing was black. He just said that Kitson and Massy ran the same boat. The boats in the photos are the same boat. As a matter of fact the boat that was the red metal flake boat of Kitson with the white stripe that Rich Lours posted that Rick connley owns in Arizona crashed at Havastraw bay impacting into a large swell and was out of the race.

[T2x]

TX2 - I think you have your facts wrong about Kenny Kitson's ~ Bobbie Massey's red wing. It was never black. ?

I never said the boats in those pictures were black....I believe it was red metalflake in both pictures...... I don't think the Diablo in the picture is the one Bob restored....... although.....the side graphics on it and the pictures of it on the trailer arriving from California....... and Bobby Massey's red Wing all seem to be similar........ As I recall when Buckley bought that boat, before selling it to Bob V......it was red.

T2x

[T2x]

Okay...If John's is Massey's old white boat......and I believe it is.

And Bob V's is Kitson's best Diablo (verified by "The Man" himself)......

Than what boat does Connelly have?

T2x

P.S...... I'm beginning to feel grateful that ours was never raced :D

[outboard bob]

He has the red metal flake one with the white stripe that Kitson ran ,and was Bob Massys last wing .

[T2x]

One other thing...... Is it just me...or were the 18 footers passed around like hookers at a fireman's convention? :p
T2x

[T2x]

He has the red metal flake one with the white stripe that Kitson ran ,and was Bob Massys last wing .

This boat was Red Metalflake......????????


T2x

[outboard bob]

Rich I see red in the tunnel area where the aileron was(Looks masked off) and on the right rear transom area . Rick Connley if you are reading this please say to us that the boat is red metal flake or not. Thank you.

[outboard bob]

You know --- we went through this with this boat before and know what boat this is (and it is red) .We are just helping John to confirm his.

[outboard bob]

John -- Where are you getting the Johnsons for the wing :D :D :D

[Old fiberglass]

Bobbie raced the wing in the originial red color as seen in the picture you posted. Then at some point in time he painted it yellow.

Yes, Rich/T2x my wing was/is originially red metal flake then painted yellow. I explained that in my previous post as seen above. Rick Connolly

[Old fiberglass]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you John.

[Stinky]

John

You realize, that if your wing ever had Johnson's on it, you will have to sell it! :eek: :p

[Old fiberglass]

They say a picture speaks a thousand words.

[T2x]

They say a picture speaks a thousand words.

Okay so yours is one of Massey's......... and that means that John's is?

What happened to the Red Adair Wing?

T2x

[Powercat]

Seems most likely that John's was last run by someone in Texas as
that is where it wound up on that sign... Was it possibly part of
the Galveston race I have heard about that several wings got
wrecked over one weekend? I did not know Red Adair ran a wing..
Continue to learn more and more ...
Danny


Okay so yours(Rick Connelly) is one of Massey's.........
and that means that John's is?
What happened to the Red Adair Wing?
T2x

[Mark75H]

Wasn't it Red's son Jimmy that drove the Wing? I thought Red was an inboard kinda guy.

[willabee]

Do you have any other photos of this black wing - I don't think Merten's boat had a crest on it. I spent some time helping him get it ready for Parker ( even drove out there with him ) and I just don't remember that white crest. The side trim on "WET and WILD" ( my suggestion to Jim for a name ) was gold metalflake and everything else was black. I was at that Galveston race and I don't recall the boat being that beat up over the wing and right sponson. I also think it was the right engine that was undamaged and continued to idle, pushing the boat in slow circles while Jim's head hung out of the boat and in the water ( what a horrible sight ).
The Merten air foil: I AM NOT SAYING IT IS THE MERTEN WING !!

[willabee]

Don't know what happened to Adair's wing, but it doesn't match up with John's - Red's was a 20' ( it was, of course, red in color ). Pretty darn sure he drove it the one time I saw it at Galveston - even though he was an inboard kinda guy.
Okay so yours is one of Massey's......... and that means that John's is?

What happened to the Red Adair Wing?

T2x

[lilabner]

willabee

I was there also, happened right in front of our pits..and I remember it like you do, but they say pictures never lie..maybe it got beat up more loading it on the trailer...

[lilabner]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...seems like a post was deleted...

[lilabner]

Sherlock

did you get an email about that post?

[lilabner]

Sherlock

Why are you on the forums and not out sanding?????????:D
If I lived up that way I'd be over drinking wine and telling you what spot you missed.....:cool:

Butch

[lilabner]

This has to be one of the biggest jobs I ever had the pleasure of jumping into and I mean I am in up over my ass. :eek:


After seeing the pictures I feel for you..took me 4 years and 3 different people to help me on a simple 22 Velocity...should have stuck to Raveaus....at least you don't need 8 people to turn them over...hope you can see some light someday, I love those wings...;)

[willabee]

I CAN CLEAR THIS UP -


Sherlock/lilabner - The picture of the badly damaged black wing you had posted was buggin me. I called my nephew, Jimmer Kubasta, who lives in Oshkosh and is friends with the Merten family. I asked Jimmer to find out if they still had "Wet and Wild" and , if so, go look at it to see if it matches the one in your posting.
They told Jimmer that it was sold to a Dave Shue (sp?), who ultimately destroyed it. I am trying to find out how/why it was destroyed. They also got out some pictures of the boat after the accident and Jimmer said they match the picture you had posted perfectly.
I had asked Jimmer to explain to the Merten's that the reason he was asking questions was because of this thread. When Jimmer couldn't reach me yesterday, he decided to post what he had learned so we had the answer. He then decided that maybe he should have given the info to me , so he deleted his post.
He also said that Jim Merten Jr. has a wing. When he has time, he will go see it and let me know if it has a T number and whether it is an 18' or 20' so that T2x can properly document it on the list:)

I was about to ask him what provoked the post. Hmmmmmmm :confused:

[willabee]

Good - keep us in the loop

While there is a break in the action, all this talk about Merten's wing reminded me of a Gary Garbrecht/Jim Merten story.
One morning Gary walked into the engine shop and as we started talking, I noticed several very bad blister looking welts on his right arm. I asked what that was all about, but Gary just gave me that look that clearly meant "none of your business".
That afternoon I was talking to Jim and noticed what appeared to be the same type blisters on his left arm. I said "Hey, Gary has a bunch of those on his right arm, what the heck is going on?" Jim put a big sh-t eating grin on his face and said that he and Gary had hoisted a few last night. While doing so, they decided to see who could handle the most pain. They put their arms side by side and dropped lit cigarettes between them ( several times ). The person that pulled away first was the weakest.
With that big smile still on his face, Jim went on to say that Gary lost every match. I said "But Jim, I thought you lost all feeling in your left arm as a result of the Galveston accident". With an even bigger smile he said " I did, but Gary doesn't know that!":D :D :D
KUBA and I have talked by email and we are getting together more information. ;)

[T2x]

Good - keep us in the loop

I said "But Jim, I thought you lost all feeling in your left arm as a result of the Galveston accident". With an even bigger smile he said " I did, but Gary doesn't know that!":D :D :D [/size]

Another Garbrecht story...... I'm sitting at Oshkosh back in the 70's having lunch with Gary, Mike Goerelitz, Jim Kubasta, Reggie and some others. It was customary in those days for a card game to occur during the lunch break..... Gin Rummy.

I'm not playing but I'm sitting next to Gary.....and looking over his shoulder.... and Goerlitz hands to my right. As I saw a card that Gary needed ...and Mike didn't.... I casually swiped it from Mike's hand...and placed it in my eyeglass frames on Gary's side....face out. This went on until the game ended....about 20-30 minutes. As each player rose and stated how he had done they all gave a brief summary...some good and some bad. Gary was more angry and frustrated.....saying only..... "If I had cards like Rich had in his glasses..... I would have done a lot better!!!"....... never realizing that I was teasing him the whole time.......

You can't make this stuff up.

T2x :D

[T2x]

T2x......................check this out. :rolleyes:

I saw the pictures....and I think you found your history.

Your biggest question now seems to be how to remove the odor of 32 years of owl poop!

T2x

[Old fiberglass]

If owl poop is like bat guano John might have over looked a business opportunity.

[2us70]

This restoration might be a good time to think about weather there is enough interest in these boats to warrant a set of molds. I imagine you will have the boat sepapated into it's original pieces in order to repair all the damage and that would be the time to do it.

[T2x]

This restoration might be a good time to think about weather there is enough interest in these boats to warrant a set of molds. I imagine you will have the boat sepapated into it's original pieces in order to repair all the damage and that would be the time to do it.

It' not just about interest...it's about collectability....and more important....Liability. These things are scary fast...tough to drive...and uncontrollable in the hands of the untrained..... and in some cases...even the trained. For these reasons, I wouldn't suggest making them readily available to the general public.

T2x

[blkmtrfan]

And the ethic's, of dare I say, splashing ;)

[rnelems]

Wing molds? An interesting thought. My feelings are mixed,but would like to see other thoughts. Is a reproduction wing a real wing? And if not,does it matter? What would Bob and Dave think? The question begs discussion. Would I buy one?Not sure,but I still want the Boynton Beach wing too,just too much money. Still an interesting idea. Robert

[2us70]

I have wanted to drive a Switzer wing for over 40 years. Considering the value of a restored "real Switzer" I figure my only chance might be a "reproduction" boat.

[T2x]

And the ethic's, of dare I say, splashing ;)

Yeah...that too...although we could certainly contact the Switzers for permission/royalties...etc.

Our 20 footer is certainly mold worthy..as is the Diablo.

My concern is more about the fact that you really could not sell these things... due to lawsuits.

I do intend to commission a wooden copy of The Skyway...... but only after gaining permission from Bob Switzer....and only for display purposes.

T2x

[T2x]

Would I buy one?Not sure,but I still want the Boynton Beach wing too,just too much money.

Cheap skate

T2x :p

[rnelems]

I honestly don't think it's a lawsuit problem. Suzuki will sell you a 150 mph bike that will hurt you quickly,Outerlimits will sell a 150 mph vee that requires lots of skill to run,the list is endless. Lots of dangerous stuff readily available. In spite of some rumours,I don't think anyone actually ever died driving a wing,correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't the builder's of some small aircraft sell them in kit form to get around the liability?Lot's of possibilities,but of course the market for a wing is very,very small,limited mostly to the few of us here that follow these threads,and this conversation may be useless,but still interesting. I'll take a black hull and deck,please,and assemble it myself ;)

[2us70]

I wouln't want to see any molds pulled unless Mr. Switzer gives OK. A copy of Dave Craig's boat that didn't run that would be a shame. I still remember watching the original run in the Gold Coast Marathon .

[lilabner]

You guys may not realize it, but Dave ran his wing's (plural) in 63 and again in 64, when he won. I don't remember how he finished in 63, but I had broken a swivel pin in Pompano beach (while running 10th overall and 1st outboard), and was tied up at a dock eating a tunafish sandwich in a camper when he finally went by...I had one fast Raveau...

I think people have posted pictures of all the wooden wings except for two..
This might be a good project for T2X, since he and Outboard Bob don't have to do any more sanding like Sherlock does...
Here's my take on the wood ones...I think six were made..maybe 7 because Bob Switzer said one didn't work and I assume it was trashed...(my own motto is trust no one, assume nothing) (not living up to it right now being around distinguished company)
number 1..U4
2..?
3..Dave Craigs little photographed and not well known..63 gold Coast
4..?
5..U6/7-11 that Craig ran in 64 Gold Coast
6..7000 even better looking than U6..notice it has no spray rails the length of the hull..it just looks cleaner on the sides...
We also know 3,5,and 6 were canopy boats...anybody out there know of the others or if the list"don't hold water"??


Butch

[2us70]

How do you get the correct measurements to make a copy of one of those wood Switzers? I was under the impression that no plans or drawings exist and that the boats were basicly built by eye back then. I know Nick Chapman and John McCall did not put much if any thing on paper but they worked more like sculptors in building their boats.

[T2x]

I honestly don't think it's a lawsuit problem. Suzuki will sell you a 150 mph bike that will hurt you quickly,Outerlimits will sell a 150 mph vee that requires lots of skill to run,the list is endless. Lots of dangerous stuff readily available. In spite of some rumours,I don't think anyone actually ever died driving a wing,correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't the builder's of some small aircraft sell them in kit form to get around the liability?Lot's of possibilities,but of course the market for a wing is very,very small,limited mostly to the few of us here that follow these threads,and this conversation may be useless,but still interesting. I'll take a black hull and deck,please,and assemble it myself ;)

Hav9ing been in the race boat building businees a couple of times..... and having lost a close friend in one of our hulls...... I assure you....you don't want the grief....neither financially.......nor personally...of putting a low production...high speed ...... outdated design....on the market.

T2x

[T2x]

How do you get the correct measurements to make a copy of one of those wood Switzers? I was under the impression that no plans or drawings exist and that the boats were basicly built by eye back then.

We have the exact 18 foot bottom dimensions...and photos of the boats..... and a naval architect in George Linder...... and a wooden fabricating genius in Ken Adams...with a great eye...... We'll come damn close.

T2x

[Watermark]

These things are scary fast...tough to drive...and uncontrollable in the hands of the untrained..... and in some cases...even the trained.

T2x


T2x knows of what he speaks. I personally watched Canadian ace Spencer Dunn lose control of his cream-coloured OMC Wing in a turn (early '70's I believe) ... his boat slid out and underneath another unlimited outboard racer ... Spencer could have been decapitated, but was lucky enough to survive without injury ( his helmet was scarred all to H---!).

In the hands of champions like T2x, Sherlock and Kenny Kitson, a cautiously driven restored Wing elicits memories of those pioneering days in outboard tunnel boat history.. speeds climbed quickly at high personal risk - Wings, like most other early designs, were experimental machines. Purpose-built for racing, not for play.

Enjoy these collectables for what they are..

[bernie]

Please have a look at my post on page 6 of the "In Search of Wings" thread - I had a wing that no one seems to know anything about - it came out of Cullman AL and I bought it from Mercury 'way back - even Bob Switzer told me he had forgot about that one when I saw Bob several years ago - for what it's worth. Bernie

[rnelems]

Bernie,I knew Bill Anderson in the old days(he died a few years ago) but his family still runs Anderson Boats, a very respected Merc Dealer. I asked his grandson about this wing when you made the original post,he didn't know anything about it but he is too young to know about a wing. I will call Bill's son,he may remember. I will post if I find out anything. A forgotten Wing is pretty exciting,and your picture proves it existed.Bill was pretty tight with Merc in the 60's and I imagine he would have been able to have access to one of Bob's one-off creations. Thanks for bringing it up. Robert Nelems,Nelems Marine,Jasper,AL

[T2x]

. A forgotten Wing is pretty exciting,and your picture proves it existed.


What picture?

T2x

[Powercat]

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showpost.php?p=665460&postcount=83
Rich:
I think he is refering to this post in another message thread about another
wood wing that was made... clik on the above should take you to it.
Danny

What picture?

T2x

[rnelems]

#83 on the other thread

[Mark75H]

I found it and looked at it again.

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85284

Unless I am mistaking that Wing for another very similar Wing, it has been discussed here on SnF.

I think these are the same boat. Look closely at the slab sides and yoke treatment between the pods. I thought there was a third image from this group, but can't find it now.

I wish there were scans of the originals instead of digitals of framed ... maybe the source of these images could help us?

[lilabner]

this one?

I may see Dave Craig tomorrow at George Grileys service..I will ask him about the wing if possible..

[2us70]

when and where is George's service being held?

[lilabner]

Chapel at Woodlawn Park on SW 8 st in Miami

call me if you are going 954 295 9912

Butch

[T2x]

There was another wooden "wing"....... It was red with amber cowlings.... and called "Miss Subway". I saw it at the '66 Orange Bowl regatta, and at least two other races.

It was campaigned by a guy out of Chicago.... I can't remember his name.

Here's the thing........ Because of the name..(It was a play on words with Miss Skyway).... the fact that it was not competitive... (in spite of twin 100's and Speedmasters).... and the kind of sarcastic attitude of the owner, ... I wondered if it was a real Switzer or some kind of a knockoff meant to be a joke at the time. However,.... the craftsmanship was similar to the Skyway.. (of course I didn't crawl through it).... The canopies were really snappy (bright amber...looked like dayglo...on a rainy day)........ and the guy had enough of a budget to take it on considerable journeys away from Chicago.....(which was saying something in those days).

I spoke to Bob Switzer about it...and he replied..... "I think I recall something like that."....... but no name or specifics registered..... in spite of the fact that the boat hailed out of Chicago..... and Switzer Craft was in Crystal Lake, IL....... just to the north of the city.

Was this , in fact, a lost wing?...a very expensive joke?...... a real attempt to copy that didn't work out?......... or a fast boat with a bad or scared driver?

Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

T2x

[2us70]

what time?

[lilabner]

11 am
3260 sw 8th st
305-445-5425

[2us70]

Can't make it I have family obligation till mid afternoon. Please convey my regards to his family. A little more of our past has slipped away. Jim

[lilabner]

will do..

[lilabner]

Did you ever see this Miss Subway? I was in Nam at that time. sounds like a Gary Peacock Jock Horner Tommy Sikes stunt

[lilabner]

By the by..when Tommy was snuffed,,I was renting one of his warehouses to store my boat..one day the Marshals came by and shut down the complex but some of us were allowed access..Randy Lanier also had some Indy car stuff stored there..lots of stories in the big city of Hollywood..he met his maker two doors from mine..shortly after Randy and Ben Kramer were popped, but Randy split to the Islands,,,the story never ends...I have the transcripts from a couple busts..

[2us70]

I don't remember ever seeing a wing with that v in the leading edge like those pictures showed. I ran in the 9 Hour Orange Bowl race in 66 in Brooke Russel's "Miami to New York" boat and I remember several wings started the race but after Hank Bowman's fatal accident the race was restarted the next day and I think they all withdrew. I know all the Merc factory entries did not continue. The only wings I remember down here were the ones Dave Craig ran, one that was run briefly by a guy named Reese Schmidt, Jock Horner's and Gene Lanham's.

[Ron Hill]

I just posted some pictures of Gene Lanham;s Switzer Wing and Bill Petty's Dutchman Wing... http://www.********************/forums/showthread.php?p=10943&highlight=switzer+wing#post10943

And Bill Onley's Super K is in the back ground...

Just got into some old slides...will post here, too, soon!!!

[willabee]

T2x, get some sleep - you're having "Wingmares":)


Was this , in fact, a lost wing?...a very expensive joke?...... a real attempt to copy that didn't work out?......... or a fast boat with a bad or scared driver?


T2x

[T2x]

T2x, get some sleep - you're having "Wingmares":)

I only wish...... but this boat actually existed...In fact the first time I saw it was at the Orange Bowl Regatta..the day that Hank Bowman was killed.... It may not have come back for the actual race... That I can't recall.

I also saw it at The Lake George Nationals...... and at least one other event. I recall the boat vividly...and I also recall how slow it was.

T2x

[T2x]

In addition...... Offhsore racer , Billy Martin, had a Wooden Switzer Wing on Lake Hopatcong in New Jersey for at least two years ('65-'66).... It had a pair of 100's and he never raced it.... but did use it to get drunk and horse around.... I believe it was the one Bakos raced earlier at Lake X with the 80's on it.

T2x

[2us70]

There were several wings at the 66 9 Hour. I also remember one that had the cockpit in the center of the wing section or am I just losing it in my old age?

[T2x]

There were several wings at the 66 9 Hour. I also remember one that had the cockpit in the center of the wing section or am I just losing it in my old age?

That was Dave Craig...in the "Skyway"....... Someone got the idea to cut off the upright cowlings (flatten the entire deck in front of the engines), put the cockpit in the center...and paint it refrigerator white..... a sad end for a legendary boat.... It didn't run very well.

T2x

[Mark75H]

I think the Switzer brothers said 2 or 3 were made like this:

[2us70]

U-711 is the one I saw. Thanks,I was starting to think I was remembering things I never saw. Along with all the great classic race boats we talk about on this board there were also some truely bizarre failures. Every so often somebody would show up with a "revolutionary new design" and we would be treated to the sight of the driver trying survive in an totally undrivable boat. I only made the mistake of test driving one of these creations and fortunately without injury.