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Riley7
07-27-2007, 10:06 AM
Just got a look at the new E-tec 250 H.O. at the Ranger builder meeting in Branson, MO. 275+ pshp on 87 octane, same physical size as the 225 H.O. Meets all of the Cali and EU emissions standards, very quiet, extremely smooth shifting, very low oil consumption, will be available with all standard Evinrude warranties. Official release won't be until November, should be available to order on non-Ranger transoms around the first of the year.

oldschoolltv
07-27-2007, 10:47 AM
nice, now if they will come with a 1:62 lowerunit we can run one over 100mph without putting a merc lower on it, Matt

Riley7
07-27-2007, 11:00 AM
New gear ratio in the prototype they had there was a 1.71/1. The tech on site said they were still doing extensive prop and gear testing, to come up with the best overall combo for the consumer.

Capt.Insane-o
07-27-2007, 11:03 AM
woot1111!

AwesomeBullet
07-27-2007, 08:30 PM
Nope, no need to. Now that the bugs have been worked out on the lightning case they have been fairly bulletproof. Hell, as many sandbars, stumps, trees, rocks, etc as I hit and I haven't torn one up yet must say something. BRP did replace it around 100hrs due to a discoloration of the paint, but no mechanical failure.

I can't wait to get my hands on the new motor. Going to be a good one!

Backfire
07-27-2007, 09:05 PM
Our local sheriff patrol got 79 hours out of his 300 OPTI before it stuck the pinion gear out the side of the case. Then about 10 hours later a piston sort of lost most of the top. The replacement powerhead arrived about a week later.
Backfire ;)

Capt.Insane-o
07-28-2007, 08:41 AM
3.4 liter, Feb 2008 delivery date..

Riley7
07-28-2007, 08:47 AM
Yep, same bore as the 225's and 250's, just a longer stroke. Should be a nice, light package.

racer
07-28-2007, 05:30 PM
It will have gears of different material and a new type of carrier assembly. It will have a different unit than the current HO engines

Alan Power
07-28-2007, 09:43 PM
Where are the water pickups on the Etec HO lowers?
Anyone got a pic of a gearcase?

Alan

AwesomeBullet
07-28-2007, 09:47 PM
On the old lightning case that is on the 200HO and 225HO they are above the bullet...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6d902b3127cce8b660b5715e400000016108IaMWTJyzbq

I have not seen a picture of the new gearcase on the 250HO, so I am not sure of where the intakes are on that case.

Alan Power
07-28-2007, 10:03 PM
Thanks AwesomeBullet,

Wonder why they wouldn't move them to the front of the nosecone, I know it's more work but would it not be better for real Hi-po use?

What were the common lower unit failures on these motors due to?

Thanks,
Alan

AwesomeBullet
07-29-2007, 08:21 AM
There were two issues with the lightning. One was the small size and weak metal used on the gears, under extreme loads the pinion gear would come out the side of the gearcase. Usually happened to bass fisherman every two years or so...The material in the gears has been changed and it is no longer an issue. The second problem was that if you surface the case, the bearing carrier WILL walk out of it. If you pinned it, it would last longer, but eventually it will break the bolts you pin it with and still walk out. This is still a problem and there is no solution to it. Part of the reason that the new case is bigger and more robust.

Evinrude has been working on cases for a while now. The problem with doing front water inlets or even getting them on the bottom of the bullet is the Merc patents on that stuff. BRP had a fantastic case, but it was too close (legally) to the sportmaster and when Merc cried foul they had to can it. Mother Merc keeps a very close eye on this stuff and if they can deem something infringes on their patents, they will....Yamaha had the same problem when they were working on the HPDI case.

neveredge
07-29-2007, 12:58 PM
Evinrude has been working on cases for a while now. The problem with doing front water inlets or even getting them on the bottom of the bullet is the Merc patents on that stuff. BRP had a fantastic case, but it was too close (legally) to the sportmaster and when Merc cried foul they had to can it. Mother Merc keeps a very close eye on this stuff and if they can deem something infringes on their patents, they will....Yamaha had the same problem when they were working on the HPDI case.


Ahh yes, so true. But mercs patents are about to expire. And not just on the location of the inlets.

neveredge
07-29-2007, 02:12 PM
Patents are only good for so long, that is to encourage competition. The patent is so the inventor can have a few years to profit from their design before other companies cannibalize it.

The merc sporty is by far the best designed gear case on the market. All other designs (keeping the carrier in place) just aren't as good. BRP would be stupid if they didn't copy the design when they are legally allowed to do so.

BTW all the companies copy each others ideas.

AwesomeBullet
07-29-2007, 02:42 PM
Copyright infringement- It stops people who can't come up with thier own solutions and then steal others ideas. I believe thats the main reason for patents, right?

I'm starting to buy into the OMC/BRP conspiracy theories, I think Mercury is responsible for all of lifes problems. I'm now going to go out and buy a Etec and a pair of pink speedos. Just ignore the man behind the curtain and all will be well :D

The Merc patent covers any water inlets on the nose or bottom of the bullet. If you are so friggin smart, you figure out how to make a low water pickup gearcase that does not have water inlets on the front or bottom of the bullet. That is why the HPDI gearcases have the water inlets on the side of the bullet. You can raise the motor higher, but still not a true low water pickup.

Backfire
07-29-2007, 03:00 PM
MY question is, how did Merc get a patent in the first place when just about every inlet position has been used over the last 90 years? Go back to the old, I'm talking OLD designs, of some of the engines. Water inlet on the front of the bullet, skeg, etc. How about a little PRO BONO research from some savy computor in the law office and give some dates as to expiration of some marine patents. Sounds like a term paper project.
Backfire ;)

1BadAction
07-29-2007, 03:31 PM
evil black motor patents - http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT4832635

It doesnt look like they got just the water intakes patented, they got the total crescent style patented, intakes and all... one of the newer patents specify "water pickups on all 4 quadrants" of the front of the bullet for the fleetmasters and torquemasters, but that has no bearing on LWPs- FWIW.

as far as gearcases, is there a patent on making one that isnt weak? they seem to avoid doing that just as much as the water pickup location.

AwesomeBullet
07-29-2007, 04:15 PM
The material used in the lightning case has been redesigned and in the last two years there have been few failures of the lightning gearcases using the new internals. I keep hearing of these stacks of lower units, and uncle joes brothers cousins daughters sisters aunt had a few fail, but I have not seen it with my own two eyes and there is never proof, just hearsay. I know that the dealer here has replaced less than 10 ALL YEAR this year. The Magnum gearcase is already bulletproof. The lightning is just about there....

Instigator
07-29-2007, 04:38 PM
the Yammi and Suzuki have crescent leading edge designs so not sure how they can get away with that if Merc has a patent on it??

I read something some where though about that being a potential issue with moving the water pick ups though. (I think)

Those that think the stock OMC cases are junk are sadily mistaken or just totally blind with Merc worship.

I've had tons of 20 yr old housings in my shop that had never been opened up until I got into them.

My first new motor was a GT 200 looper in '89 and I ran that motor on three different Hi Perf hulls and put a total of a couple hundred hrs on the motor and never had the l/u apart.

The real issue with them is when you surface the unit/propeller in Hi Perf applications. (my first was only semi surfaced)

It will hammer the bearing carrier out if you don't pin them.

But with $5. worth of stainless bolts and an hour you can pin them.

If you do that, run good fluid and stay on top of your preventive maintenance they are nearly bullet proof.

Since I started doing that to mine, I've never had a failure that wasn't self inflicted.

The Sportys are the best Hi Perf unit on the market but look at all of the ones for sale in pcs. They ain't perfect either.

The one MiamiDave has on his JohnRude was fresh when he bolted it on and has only put 20 or so hrs on it and is already getting shavings in the fluid.

As far as patents in general go, I was selling boats when Volvo introduced their "Duo Prop".
We sold OMC, Volvo and Merc.

Merc spent a bazillion dollars trying to convince the buying public that the Duo Prop was smoke and mirrors and attempted to compete against it with their "All New" :p Bravo II which was just a lengthend Bravo housing that allowed them to run bigger diameter wheels.

When Volvos initial patents ran out guess what Merc came out with??

The Bravo III.

Guess who they pay royalties to for each Bravo III they sell ??

Funny how anytime anyone attmpts to post something positive about a BRP/OMC some expert jumps in the thread to tell them what crap it all is.

1BadAction
07-29-2007, 05:12 PM
LOL. get your OMC undies un-wadded, contrary to what you might think, everyone doesnt hate BRP as much as you hate merc, I promise! :p (other than NNTs joke, which must have touched a nerve) no one said they were junk, just they aren't as strong as they need to be for surfacing. I dont know what the LWP/speed bitch is about, cause a regular case with a good cone runs better on top than a fatmaster anyways.

as far as the bravo, volvo, vulva, whatever, volvo wasnt the first with TRPs, nor do 90% of the people on this site really care. nice red herring, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring) none the less. :D


Funny how anytime anyone attmpts to post something positive about a BRP/OMC some expert jumps in the thread to tell them what crap it all is.you mean the same way you do when someone posts about something you dont like? :rolleyes: pot meet kettle.

I like it, glad BRP finally has something to compete with a 250XS http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1526/rollinglaugh7fo.gif im sure a 250HO isnt the only trick they have up their sleeve tho. :eek:

Instigator
07-29-2007, 05:39 PM
LOL. get your OMC undies un-wadded, contrary to what you might think, everyone doesnt hate BRP as much as you hate merc, I promise! :p

continue to prove you have no clue and why most people just keep to them selves instead of posting positive info.

Not even going to dignify the dumb ass statements you make with a response.

Long as we all believe everything you put on a computer we'll all be fine.

Am curious which of your many yrs of experience with Sportys and going fast tells you about which housing is best "up top"??

Funny too that you don't care about patents that worked against Merc but anything that protects their secrets. Yikes.

Go back in the bathroom with your Twinkies and Merc Racing calender.

Stinky
07-29-2007, 05:40 PM
I like it, glad BRP finally has something to compete with a 250XS http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/1526/rollinglaugh7fo.gif im sure a 250HO isnt the only trick they have up their sleeve tho. :eek:

You call 1.5 MPH slower and 1/2 sec slower hole shot with 3.4L on a Ranger competition?:rolleyes:

:D

1BadAction
07-29-2007, 05:42 PM
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8007/keyboardfrustrationoh6.gif

hahahaha. :D :D

Instigator
07-29-2007, 05:53 PM
hahahaha. :D :D

keyboard.

Pretty sure everyone knows who does which.

AwesomeBullet
07-29-2007, 08:40 PM
Here we go with the NNT and 1BA circle jerk......:rolleyes::rolleyes:

bigbore
07-29-2007, 08:44 PM
Here we go with the NNT and 1BA circle jerk......:rolleyes::rolleyes:

They sit around a circle n play basketball,see who can catch each-others e-jaculation,queers.

AwesomeBullet
07-29-2007, 08:50 PM
Ready.............aim................










man you Brp guys are a touchy bunch, makes it too easy to have fun with ya :D

Nah, it's just that everytime something comes up about BRP you two are the first to jump in and run your mouths about things that you have no clue about. Makes it dam hard to provide an answer to the people asking BRP questions when you two are running the post into the ground with your pro-Merc Anti-everything else stance on things....

Alan Power
07-29-2007, 09:21 PM
Evinrude has been working on cases for a while now. The problem with doing front water inlets or even getting them on the bottom of the bullet is the Merc patents on that stuff. BRP had a fantastic case, but it was too close (legally) to the sportmaster and when Merc cried foul they had to can it. Mother Merc keeps a very close eye on this stuff and if they can deem something infringes on their patents, they will....Yamaha had the same problem when they were working on the HPDI case.

OK, I didn't realise that merc held the sole patent on the front LWP:eek: Does the suzuki 300 case have front LWP, but on top of the cone? At least it would be easier to modify, with a drill and some epoxy!

How close to a merc case was the etec case they had to scrap?

Does adding a nosecone with LWP mess with warantee's?

Thanks, Alan:)

Instigator
07-29-2007, 09:26 PM
"not quite junk" ? :D
Very classy.

More like, kinda, sorta should give a **** what a smart ass with a 40 mph Boston Whaler thinks :p

Make sure next time you and I are at the same place you come over and call my stuff junk.

You now how it is. The guy with the littlest dick talks the most crap.

Funny, none of the fast guys (white or black) start or talk ****.

It's always some punk ass w/a computer.

I normally don't even respond to this crap from these goobers.

If I read something I question I figure out who the guy is.

Any history??

Any accomplishments??

Ever seen his stuff??

If not, then who the F cares.

Go find a "serious" negative comment from anyone on this site that's actualy done anything.

There isn't any.

Bunch of classy, knowledgable people run off by this stupid **** though.

nipplehead went on for weeks about the broken E-Techs at the Rouen 24 hr race this year.
Stock ficsh power heads against S-3000 factory race motors.
Woo hooh.

Where were you last year when two privateer teams took first and third with one.

Just like school, a couple of punks that no one likes starting crap with everyone else but only when the teacher is around.

NNT
07-29-2007, 09:31 PM
I already said I was having fun, get over yourself man and you can meet me anytime you want. Let me know when you want to come down to keywaddin or I can let you know when I'll be up at lovers key with Rollin and the rest of that gang. Never said your stuff was junk, just made a general humourous statement. I can call your stuff junk if you really want me to, but could honestly care less to. my whaler does 51 mph, get it right :D


yep I ragged you brp boys about rouen this year, because thats all the rest of the board heard anytime BRP was mentioned in a thread till this years race lol.

I'll be the bigger man(we can get a ruler out if ya really want lol) and delete my attempt at some good natured ribbing since it so obviously got Instigators blood pressure up.

dzalj1
07-30-2007, 05:26 AM
hey guys,
not trying to start a war here with anyone, but i'm just adding my 02c about the e-tec outboards and omc gboxes. seeming this thread is about the gearboxes i will start with that. i do understand that the omc boxes are not that well built, as in alloys and the contrusction. but how many omc boxes on here do you see for sale complete or in peices, propbably 1/3 of merc sports masters in peices. one thing i will agree on the omc design, is that it is a very simple gearbox, non of this bull**** pre-load merc crap, no bullets, no cranks in the shift shaft area's to get worn out. the omc box is one of the safest boxes and the strongest internal omc thing here. yes we all know about the ficht engies from 1994 to 2000 when johnson, or omc went broke, and that is understandable. as they where building the POS fichts, and yes i am a omc guru, but those first fichts where really bad, thay had either no money, or had bad time to construct there gearboxes. maybe weaker alloys, maybe because carrier walking out, but who cares it was just a thing that they went through. but it is getting sorted. my v4 case, the little 13 diameter case, well i put that thing together at the start of this year, i have checked the oil only once, the seals havnt been changed since the 1980's. it is my first gearbox i ever put together of my own. i got tips from instigator, jphii etc on the bearing carrier, and yes i pinned the sucker down for surface peicing sakes. and the bloody thing has not let me down. my closest mate who owns a 280 merc. he has gone through 3 pinions, a broken shaft, lost prop etc. every time he goes out, he expects problems. my gbox looks like crap, i have run in sand banks, i have my bobs low water cone welded then resin/talc bonded on, and yes maybe it does not look like a million dollars but it does the job. all i am saying is that the latest omc boxes are one tough thing. the lightning and magnum gearboxes, are like a 5 speed manual transmission out of a car. that gear box looks like a million dollars. and under extreme testing that omc has put them through, it has failed them a few times, obviesly because it there first attempt, but now, they are a work of art. regarding the low water pik up thing. yes they might of placed the inlet pick up holes lower, and i do wish they make a low water pick up gearbox like the sports masters, and it will defianetly last longer than merc junk. but maybe they are going slowely with there engines. now to the power head story. when you actually think about it, if anyone followed the rouen race, a stock fishing e-tec engine, against a s3000 high performance race engine and yes last year or year before, i dont remember, brp came 1st and third, i mean that is absoulutely great, and for a fishing engine, going through those conditions running wide open for long periods of time is fantastic, but you see, try get a merc opti max or a efi or something?? try race that. on the opti crap you have the hpdi crap sitting on top of the block, bull**** electrics, they rattle like a old inline chrysler, and they blow up. maybe merc should align them engines agaist old stock fichts or later model e-tecs. another mate of mine, he owns a 19 or 20 foot offshore fishing boat, and a really heavy one, he has a 2002 200hp ficht evinrude. its spinning a 21 stainless fishing prop and he is getting 67mph. but he treats that engine, hole shoots it like a race car, and puts numorous hours on that engine, it has not missed a beat, or the plugs have not been changed since 3-4 years now. always starts on the second or third revolution, but just saying that the new brp/omc engines are a engine to be experienced. soo much torque to spin a massive pitch prop, throw a wayne taylor 16 inch mid on it, and away you go. but then again will the sports master gearbox keep up with the torque of the brp engine? now for these two people nnt, and 1bad action. i do not personally know you guys and i probably never will, and dont get me wrong but i think when it comes to any latest news on brp technology, you guys are a bunch of ****heads. have you people ever been on a e-tec?, i have been on a s3000, 280, 260, stock 2litres, bridgeports, 2.4's etc, and i will stay with my omc engines, yes maybe the old xflows are not the best engines, but a little backyard mechanicism, a few hand tools and you would have a race motor which would run for some time, depending on the use. i think awesomebullet should take you's wankers for a spin on his e-tech?? i think some guys here are correct. i think you's 2 sit on a computer fantasising on any new MERC product, and try to rub it in our faces. take some time, stop your wankin, and do some reasearch on evinrude outboards. go to liquidnirvanas site, it is a peice of art with the old omc pictures, and they have the rouen pictures on there also, maybe take some time and go through it and see what omc put you MERC guys through. bak in the day, twister vs strangler, tripple c vs 2.0 litre , omc v8 vs 2.4's, and the t3 3.4litre merc. and guess what merc was ****tin there pants because omc could not get away. maybe omc lost interest after second effort, and out of money, and left you MERC guys to do your crap, but you people wait, i swear that brp is coming out with a race engine, over 350hp, and no its not internet words, i have heard it from highly respected race gurus and brp shops around here. maybe a year or 2 but it will bite you's on your ases and use will be upset, and we will be laughing. any way, this is just my 2 cents, please correct me (omc gurus only, merc guys wont believe what i have written) if i have put something in there wrong.
talk laters. dzalj1

Stinky
07-30-2007, 07:02 AM
now to the power head story. when you actually think about it, if anyone followed the rouen race, a stock fishing e-tec engine, against a s3000 high performance race engine and yes last year or year before, i dont remember, brp came 1st and third, i mean that is absoulutely great, and for a fishing engine, going through those conditions running wide open for long periods of time is fantastic, but you see, try get a merc opti max or a efi or something?? try race that

And a Merc Production 2.5L Optimax came in second. And the same 2.5L has won or top 5 since it was introduced. And when Merc went with their Production 3.0L, they ran production leg and gearcase (not aftermarket race stuff) and came in 3 and 5.

:cool:

dzalj1
07-30-2007, 07:09 AM
yeah thats good for mercury, but for a champion ship win for brp, it is a big thing. and with that 3litre, thats ok, but still bring them against the e-tecs

AwesomeBullet
07-30-2007, 06:24 PM
i think awesomebullet should take you's wankers for a spin on his e-tech??

My Etec 225HO has been at every River Ranch run so far and anyone is always more than welcome to take a spin in it. I had Marueen in the boat at the last run and she sure had some nice things to day about the motor....;)

RobF
07-30-2007, 06:41 PM
I have a 20" 250ETEC for a 20' Whaler project, cant wait to get it on there and see how it does. Hopefully in 2 weeks I will find out.

Is there a 250HO and a 250 or are they the same?

The BRP website is pretty crappy so it seems I cant figure it out, especially for us people not so much in the "know" when it comes to these things.

racer
07-30-2007, 07:09 PM
Rob the 250 HO is not yet released.

As for performance compared to the Merc on the Ranger I was told the Merc slightly better out of hole etec quicker every where else.

Every one will have an opinion lets at least wait until they are available as the lower unit and I am sure other items are not finalized

AwesomeBullet
07-30-2007, 07:18 PM
The 250HO and 250 are totally different motors. The 250HO is bigger displacement (3.4L vs 3.3L), different gearcase, and different EMM mapping. I can't wait til my 250HO comes in....:D

RobF
07-31-2007, 06:02 AM
that would explain my confusion because I could not get any on the 250HO, but sometimes they list it.

The hull its going on will only go so fast, its also light- so I dont think this application will benefit from it as much as others will.

Instigator
07-31-2007, 06:20 AM
that the "Lightning" case is no longer in production and it's succesor is/was to be the "Magnum XP" and that it had bigger gears and therefor a 1/2" bigger dia. at the bullet.

This close?

One of my old dealers up north was a big E-Tech dealer and had a bunch of Lightnings but I don't think ever saw a Magnum??

I am geeked though to see that they are experimenting with gear ratios!

With gas at $3.+ the thoughts of a bullet proof 300 HP DI motor with gears in a decent housing.....hummhh.

Wolverine
07-31-2007, 12:39 PM
A 1.71 ratio is much better, but BRP still needs to offer a taller ratio in the 1.6's if the new 250HO max's out in the low 6000 RPM range.

Riley7
07-31-2007, 01:16 PM
Pretty sure that the stock 250 H.O. will max at or below 6K rpm.

Instigator
07-31-2007, 01:25 PM
A 1.71 ratio is much better, but BRP still needs to offer a taller ratio in the 1.6's if the new 250HO max's out in the low 6000 RPM range.
agreed.

Either give us more RPM or gears.

racer
07-31-2007, 03:27 PM
lightning is still in production. The magnum unit is much larger and thus is not a good performance option the xp was slower than a lightning.

oldschoolltv
07-31-2007, 03:45 PM
has anyone been able to up the r's on the e-tec yet I saw where one won some drags up north and I know it had to be turning more than 6500. Matt

Instigator
07-31-2007, 04:17 PM
lightning is still in production. The magnum unit is much larger and thus is not a good performance option the xp was slower than a lightning.

Lost track of them there some where. I thought the Magnum was the XP.

I like the looks of the Lightning although it seems I heard somewhere that it was slower than a ficsh case w/a nose cone??.

Give us a decent carrier LWP and gears and we're there :rolleyes:


Matt, yes you're right.

That was at the Blarney Island Drags up by Chiccago.

Searched for the thread with no luck.

He was turning it 6700 - 7K as I recall.

He ran the yrs before that and was winning then too but was breaking.
I think they were turning it 7500+ then.

The guy had a BRP tech involved at some point and they did get it to spin up while still using the same ECU (I think).

jphii
07-31-2007, 04:53 PM
has anyone been able to up the r's on the e-tec yet I saw where one won some drags up north and I know it had to be turning more than 6500. Matt

You wouldn't believe what the Northern boys are doing with an E-Tec. More than 6500.

Forkin' Crazy
08-01-2007, 05:21 PM
The second problem was that if you surface the case, the bearing carrier WILL walk out of it. If you pinned it, it would last longer, but eventually it will break the bolts you pin it with and still walk out. This is still a problem and there is no solution to it. Part of the reason that the new case is bigger and more robust.




FYI I had a SS sleeve made for my case and had my carrier turned down to fit. This effectively trippled the surface contact area. Plus the sleeve is pinned to the carrier and pinned to the case. I think I got it fixed. I have not broken any pin bolts since.

Nice thread! http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

oldschoolltv
08-02-2007, 08:13 AM
I heard someone else do this and wondered how they made the sleeve, I think Al said to make it a slight press fit out of billet but this sleeve idea sounds cheaper, any pics and how much did they charge for the sleeve, Matt

Forkin' Crazy
08-02-2007, 10:22 AM
It was a "buddy deal" so I can't discuss price. ;)

Larry made it out of a piece of SS tubing, cut the OD of th tubing to the ID of the case and the ID of the tubing to the new OD of the carrier. Pretty simple really. The pics that I have are not very good. Any machine shop should be able to do it, or yourself if you have a lathe.

Matt Gent
08-16-2007, 09:51 AM
It looks to be about .060" thick?

spirit5.6
09-20-2007, 06:02 AM
Guys, seems you have a huge discussion going on the OMC units, l read through all the posts and found out some real cool stuff.
I am racing a 1995 225 Venom modified using originaly a standard unit with nose cone and talk tab. That box was worn in the usual area round the carrier. I was new to outboards at the time and went to my first closet OMC dealer and he said to me it needed to be pulled apart, welded where the wear is (housing) and the machined.. Cost me $1200AU with a couple of new bearings and lasted 2 hrs!! He then put me on to a guy he knew that had a Lightening with all new internals for $3000AU. Before I bought this unit l took it to another dealer to dismantle and check it out for me, they said it needed a new lower drive shaft and the thing should be good for 150-200hrs cost me another $1200 0n top $4200 all up, this lasted 12hrs plus 5 hrs running in!! Checked the oil before a race and found metal shavings, took it back to the dealer and thing was ****ed, they then tell me it had remanufactured gears in it..
Since then l have got onto a guy over in the US through Scream and Fly, Lee at Tristate Marine, he sells remanufactured OMC Units. He uses OEM cases and builds all his own internals out of Billet steel, hardens them and are then cryogenicaly processed?? Aparently makes different carriers aswell for $2195 US for the Lightening. I bought one from him(expecting any day now) and got a good deal on an original, brand new never been in water Offshore unit over here.
My intensions are to have the internals from the offshore (OEM) put into the Lighteneing case,
Sell the Offshore and use the Lightening with all new OEM parts.
l am a bit weary of messing with the units.as there are really not alot of people here that really know what they are doing with units.
Apparently 1 guy in the whole of Australia is good though charges like a wounded bull!!
Have any of you guys heard of Tristate before?
135625

135626

135627
Would you guys use the remanufactured or do the swap??
Our units get a lot of load as we are towing 2 skiers for long distances at high speeds.
Tristate tried to get me to buy a Magnum series that he has modified,but l decided to stay with the Lighteneing. l have attached some pics of the 2 units and the gear size difference between the 2.
What should l do??
Dave Green..

Instigator
09-25-2007, 03:23 PM
(I think on this thread too)

The Magnum housing is approx. 1/2" larger o.d. and will slow you down.

Stronger? Yes.

Slower? Same answer as above.

Neither housing you're showing has low water pick up which tells me you're not running your motors that high.(still high enough to destroy them though)

If you're going to spend the money...I'd call "Titus".

Maybe just have him do a housing for you. If I had the equip. I'd build you one.

Anyhow, here's what I'd do.

Start w/a virgin (as in no wear in area where carrier seats) stock housing and have it coned.

Then add the material to the leading edge of the skeg as I have highlighted previously.
This will greatly improve your high speed handling.

By doing the above you end up lenghting (as in depth) the skeg as well which allows you to run a longer torque tab.
T&H makes two but only the short will fit on a stock housing.

Another trick is to use "Marinetex" on the carrier when you install it. If you have a billet carrier, even better although the housing is actually the weak link and not the carrier.
If you do the above, make sure and allow time between assembly and filling with fluid to allow the epoxy to kick before the fluid gets to it.

And of course you will have to pin it in 4 places. (everything else is a waste w/o this)

Lastly find a "blow out ring" and install it. You're probably not running fast enough to really need it but if you marinetx it too and run the allen screws tight this helps all of these little pieces to act as one stressed member. (a good thing)

Intsall magnetic plugs top and bottom, run 100% synthetic fluid and check/change it after every race and you should have way better luck than what you've been having.
If you see shavings on botttom plug it's gears, top plug is upper drive shaft bearings.

Gary

Action Dave
09-25-2007, 03:48 PM
OK, since this has turned into a gearcase thread, maybe one of you guys can answer some questions I have. I have a 2000 OMC 200HO carb. It came with what appears to be a "lightning" case. It looks exactly like the one in Awesomebullet's pics. I have since changed all of the guts to a standard case w/Bob's nosecone. Were the problems just with the housing? Are the gears from the carb motor the same as the Etec? I know full well about the bearing carrier issues and have pinned my newer housing as well as my older one. I've never had any gearcase issues and I put a lot of hours on my motor. I change the lube regularly and have never had any flakes in the oil, just the light stuff that sticks to the drain plug.

Instigator
09-25-2007, 04:37 PM
[QUOTE=Action Dave; Were the problems just with the housing? Are the gears from the carb motor the same as the Etec? [/QUOTE]

BRP now makes a jig to check housings for being twisted.

Checks alignment between prop shaft and drive shaft.

From what most dealers tell me, if they are late era OMC housings they will fail.

What a couple of friends and I think is that the old OMC tooling was so worn when they knew their ship was sinking that they kept casting housings out of molds/dies that should have been destroyed instead of buying new tooling.

I have personally run a boat load of old beat up housings w/no issues.

Pin your carrier, stay on your gear lube and check torque of your pin bolts an go.

After switching to synthetic lube I am a true believer in that too now.

spirit5.6
09-26-2007, 02:26 AM
Thanks guys, but what l asked was wether l should change all the non geniune gears into the other box and run all the genuine stuff??
Have non of you hear of Tri State Marine units??

Action Dave
09-26-2007, 08:08 AM
Thanks for the info. My current housing is an older style(not sure what year). I was checking it out yesterday and found that I had broken the carrier. It cracked in a place it was pinned. Thankfully I've got a few in my shop and I can easily replace it. Gotta love those junk fishing motors.

Instigator
09-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Dave, when installing the pinning bolts I torque them in sequence and in increasing torque loads like I do the heads.
This helps center the carrier and "helps" prevent side loading of the carrier.

The only carrier I've ever broken w/o hitting anything was one that I left the zinc anode bolted on the bottom of the carrier.
After about 200 mls of near WFO running the bolts backed out against the inseide of the housing and with vibration, acted as a "jack" and lifted the carrier/prop shaft out of alignement until it commited suicide.

Spirit, sorry, missunderstood.

I have no experience with remn'd stuff ir the guy you're talking about.

I will say that IMO the gears are also not the weak link.

While struggling two keep two together for the 7 yrs I had my old twin O/B Sonic I tried everything while figuring out what the Heck I was doing.

While waiting on parts I chose to experiement with used gears and even miss-matched forward and pinion geras which they say is stricly taboo.

Never had a single gear failure!

Again IMO, I think start with good stuff (used, new, reman'd or what ever), a virgin housing, do the tricks I outlined above, run synthetic fluid, and be anal about your preventive maintenance and should have way better luck.

Gary

Instigator
09-26-2007, 04:33 PM
Gotta love those junk fishing motors.

Yep, and the prices we pay for em :rolleyes:

I posted before that I have more money in tools just to get the drive shaft out of my Sporty to cut it down than what I can rebuild an OMC case for including tool.

I still have a smiliar amount to spend to be able to get the rest of it aprt and back together.

You can buy/modify an OMC unit, chuck it in a dumpster if/when it pops and buy another one for less money that getting a Sporty "rebuilt" :eek:

If it wasn't for changing gear ratios I'd still be running one.

spirit5.6
09-27-2007, 04:00 AM
Thanks Instigator, l will do the swap to use the geniune gears, pin the carrier and l use genuine Johnson Evinrude HPF XR Synthetic blend gear oil..
I will drive easy, change the oil after 2 hrs then again after 4hrs and hopefully this one will last me!!
Again thanks guys..
Dave G.

79Jcraft
09-27-2007, 04:47 AM
I have a 20" 250ETEC for a 20' Whaler project, cant wait to get it on there and see how it does. Hopefully in 2 weeks I will find out.

Is there a 250HO and a 250 or are they the same?

The BRP website is pretty crappy so it seems I cant figure it out, especially for us people not so much in the "know" when it comes to these things.

I was waiting for someone to mention their website...I was disapointed with it especially their comparisons to the competition's 4strokes...I am omc/brp thru and thru, was handed sown to me from my grampa and dad...but comparing apples to oranges really makes them look stupid...I would have liked to see them set up equivalent opti's and yammy's against their own. I don't expect the e-tec to beat anything and everything but if you want to get respect for your accomplishments, picking a race with the fat kid aint gonna get it. Why didn't they do the pull test with an Opti..that would have been f**kn cool to watch rather than spanking a 4 stroke..***** my old 81 235 could spank that 4 stroke!

Instigator
09-27-2007, 05:13 AM
picking a race with the fat kid aint gonna get it. Why didn't they do the pull test with an Opti..

J...very true and agreed by most on this site but consider this....BRP is the ONLY company that has stood toe to toe against the 4 stroke marketing monster.

Merc and Yammid build both 2 and 4 stroke so they really can't pick one in paticular.

IMO, if it had not been for BRP sticking with the 2 strokes and their "creative" marketting the 2 stroke would probably be dead and gone by now.

Doubtful that Merc or Yammi would still spending the $$$ on 2 strokes if not for the E-Tec.

Spirit, if you put the magnetic plugs in both holes and then start checking fluid that often they will tell you what's going on.

I did that when I ran my first set of miss-matched gears. Started with petroleum based fluid to allow for some "break in/alignment" of gears. (I saw none)
Then switched to synthetic (was using cheap Sierra fluid) and kept checking plugs every time I ran the boat.

Still no signs of wear. At that point I started backing off my service frequincies.

Based on what you guys are doing and how long those motors are loaded you will need to stay on top of it.
Even w/a Sportmaster you'd have to do the same thing.

Gary

79Jcraft
09-27-2007, 05:22 AM
J...very true and agreed by most on this site but consider this....BRP is the ONLY company that has stood toe to toe against the 4 stroke marketing monster.

Merc and Yammid build both 2 and 4 stroke so they really can't pick one in paticular.

IMO, if it had not been for BRP sticking with the 2 strokes and their "creative" marketting the 2 stroke would probably be dead and gone by now.

Doubtful that Merc or Yammi would still spending the $$$ on 2 strokes if not for the E-Tec.



You are 100% right and thankfully they have kept the 2stroke alive, moreso they have made it efficient and "gulp" environmental...(never thought i would hear/see myself say THAT...lol It is amazing what all the above have done to improve our sport and enjoyment. I guess i can see that they are trying to open the consumers eyes to the 2 stroke over the 4...but it would be nice to see them show some even comparison to try to entice those already knowing they want a 2 stroke, each manufacturer I am sure excel in one way or another with their 2's. Similar tests would just open our eyes as to which excels where...:)

Instigator
09-27-2007, 07:55 AM
they have kept the 2stroke alive, moreso they have made it efficient and "gulp" environmental...(never thought i would hear/see myself say THAT...lol

Two points.

#1. I am in the O/B business and the large majority of consumers still have no clue as to the difference between a 2 and 4 stroke.
They only "know" what they are "told to THINK".

I deal with people almost daily that tell me they want a 4 stroke. Most I can educate (w/o showing brand allegiance) and they walk away in amazement to what they did not know.

(had a guy at last yrs Miami boat show at my booth ready to write a check for a 4 stroke until I enlightened him :rolleyes: )

The 4 strokes are selling based on being compared to 20 yr old, out of tune, barely running 2 strokes not current technology D.I. 2 strokes and thats the first thing I tell these people.
Don't trust me, do your own home work.

I usually include some "Pro" 2 and "Con" 4 stroke propaganda in my advertising and you would be shocked by how many people just call to thank me because they didn't know.

I sold a guy a rebuilt V-6 p.head and charged him extra to replace complete ignition system as preventive maintenance.

He bought based on savings of repairing his 15 yr old motor vs buying new.

I told him, "of course the new motors are much better and more efficient but how many hrs use and how many yrs of ownership will you need to make up the $13K additional investment?"
And oh yeah, don't forget to include the required scheduled maint. to keep your new miracle motor in warranty.

One of my suppliers gets $300. for a 100 hr check on his 4 strokes :eek:

#2. I'm old enough to remember the death of the muscle car, big blocks, Sunoco 260, and stump pulling torque!
I, like most believed that was it and we were done with performance.

Wrong!
Now look at a 300 HP Subaru WRX 4 banger that gets 30 mpg while scaring you silly.

How bout a new Caddy coupe thats faster than the old muscle cars, gets double the mileage, handles, is comfortable and dependable?

I think we're seeing the same thing happen to our hobby right now.

The manufactures had to scramble for the last few yrs just to survive the emission standards shoved down their throats by people that thought they had the deep pockets of GM, Ford and Chrysler :mad:

Now that they've made it beyond and seem to be doing well.....maybe we will see a brand new horsepower war between the mfgs???
Already seeing it with the pig motors like the new Yammi 350 but that is also a HUGE market compared to our style of stuff which other than bassers they don't normally even acknowledge.

IMO the best is yet to come and I am willing to eat crow as I was one that though the Hi Perf O/B was doomed just a few yrs back.

Gary

Stinky
09-27-2007, 11:31 AM
JIMO, if it had not been for BRP sticking with the 2 strokes and their "creative" marketting the 2 stroke would probably be dead and gone by now.

Doubtful that Merc would still spending the $$$ on 2 strokes if not for the E-Tec.



Thats the funniest thing I have ever read!:rolleyes:

:cool:

NNT
09-27-2007, 05:36 PM
Heres my take on BRP's pushing of 2 strokes. They either had to dump the outboard segment altogether,push suzuki 4 strokes that were painted white or figure the ficht nightmare out and redesign/improve on it since carbed 2 strokes were soon to be killed off. They chose the last option and so far so good, but not without it's growing pains which I'm not exactly sure are all over with yet. BRP has a awesoem marketing dept and they are mighty careful who they go up against in head to head testing. They like to pick on the Yamaha 4 strokes since they know they have a power to weight advantage and it's not cutting thier own throats since they really don't have a 4 stroke dept at BRP anymore. I think all the new outboards are fairly dependable now and your pretty much safe with any of them. For the money though I think the Etecs are a little high priced for whats still out theere, but it's all in what you want. I could care less about emissions,fuel economy or self winterization, so I chose a classic carbed 90 Merc motor(would have gone with a BRP 115 V4 if I had known they were still being sold though). The extra $2500+ to go to a 90 etec just wasn't worth it to me. I don't think the 90 Etecs are as strong as the old V4 90 omc's and Merc 3 cyl 90's, just my opinion based on performance numbers I have seen.

I think BRP pushing the 2 strokes kept and maybe put the heat on Merc to up the ante with the Optis, which they have done. In the end the consumer is the winner. I hope to see a 350+ hp DFI 2 stroke, better yet I hope to have something to put it on :D

Instigator
09-27-2007, 08:27 PM
Thats the funniest thing I have ever read!:rolleyes:

:cool:

E-Tec's are 3 star rated, Opti's are 2.

Now what?

Merc has what one more year with their current technoligy??

You like funny, there you go.

NNT
09-27-2007, 08:56 PM
I thought the new opti's were 3 star? Thought they made the change when they updated the Vrats? I could care less, but if ya can't buy em no more because of that, that could be a problem

1BadAction
09-27-2007, 09:09 PM
only cali envirotards worry about 2/3 star Obs, it doesnt effect what the people buy in the 49 other NORMAL states. http://www.mercurymarine.com/serviceandwarranty/outboardfaqs/carb.php


How can Mercury continue to sell conventional two-stroke engines outside of California?

The EPA Marine Engine Rule does not prevent manufacturers from certifying and selling conventional two-stroke engines. It is important to note the EPA currently regulates emissions levels, not engine technology. There are a number of requirements that need to be met to sell these engines, including the maintenance of a positive credit balance, production line testing and in-use testing. Mercury is pleased to be able to continue offering select conventional two-stroke models as an additional power choice for consumers seeking a more economical propulsion package.

Stinky
09-28-2007, 07:03 AM
E-Tec's are 3 star rated, Opti's are 2.

Now what?

Merc has what one more year with their current technoligy??

You like funny, there you go.

I take that back, THAT is now the funniest thing I've ever read.:rolleyes:

READ and edumacate.
http://northamerica.mercurymarine.com/serviceandwarranty/outboardfaqs/carb.php

Action Dave
09-28-2007, 02:52 PM
Heres my take on BRP's pushing of 2 strokes. They either had to dump the outboard segment altogether,push suzuki 4 strokes that were painted white or figure the ficht nightmare out and redesign/improve on it since carbed 2 strokes were soon to be killed off. They chose the last option and so far so good, but not without it's growing pains which I'm not exactly sure are all over with yet. BRP has a awesoem marketing dept and they are mighty careful who they go up against in head to head testing. They like to pick on the Yamaha 4 strokes since they know they have a power to weight advantage and it's not cutting thier own throats since they really don't have a 4 stroke dept at BRP anymore. I think all the new outboards are fairly dependable now and your pretty much safe with any of them. For the money though I think the Etecs are a little high priced for whats still out theere, but it's all in what you want. I could care less about emissions,fuel economy or self winterization, so I chose a classic carbed 90 Merc motor(would have gone with a BRP 115 V4 if I had known they were still being sold though). The extra $2500+ to go to a 90 etec just wasn't worth it to me. I don't think the 90 Etecs are as strong as the old V4 90 omc's and Merc 3 cyl 90's, just my opinion based on performance numbers I have seen.

I think BRP pushing the 2 strokes kept and maybe put the heat on Merc to up the ante with the Optis, which they have done. In the end the consumer is the winner. I hope to see a 350+ hp DFI 2 stroke, better yet I hope to have something to put it on :D


I think you hit the nail on the head(sort of). The improvement in 2stroke dfi engines (all brands) is a priority in the boating comunity. Lets face it, I love my carb motor but they are going the way of the dinosaur. How many carbureted cars are still out there? As far as price goes, wth the glut of marinas and dealerships here in South Florida, the prices are very similar from brand to brand. There isn't one motor in particular that is way more expensive than the others. Now, of course a CARB 90 Merc is going to cost alot less than a 90Etec. Does Merc make a 90 Opti? I'm also curious, WHY DO THEY MAKE VERADOS? I'm not bashing here. I love the Opti motors. I just don't understand why anyone would buy a heavier 4-stroke when they can get the same, or better, power, fuel economy, and (shudder) emissions with a DFI 2 stroke.

Instigator
09-28-2007, 07:08 PM
I thought the new opti's were 3 star? Thought they made the change when they updated the Vrats? I could care less, but if ya can't buy em no more because of that, that could be a problem

mistaken but I thought thats what I read??

It may have been a yr or so ago but I know I read that the Opti as produced at the time only had a couple yrs left due to the EPA rating.

Course at this point we still don't have anybody checking anything.

jphii
09-29-2007, 06:39 AM
So Gary, did you get an E-Tec block yet:D :D

Instigator
09-29-2007, 08:18 AM
So Gary, did you get an E-Tec block yet:D :D

for a while.

Sleeves are out and one side porting is done.

theoldwizard
09-30-2007, 12:18 PM
....BRP is the ONLY company that has stood toe to toe against the 4 stroke marketing monster.

Merc and Yammid build both 2 and 4 stroke so they really can't pick one in paticular.

IMO, if it had not been for BRP sticking with the 2 strokes and their "creative" marketting the 2 stroke would probably be dead and gone by now...

I'm new here, but let me throw in my opinion.

First, I think E-tec is amazing technology. Compared to Optimax and HPDI, it is sooooo much simpler ! In engineering and in life, Simpler is Better ! BRP took some of the money they saved on the injection system an put it in to better internal components (pistons, etc)

As for 4 stroke, I say "Vive la difference". No 4 stroke will ever beat the power-to-weight ratio of a 2 stroke. Even with a blower !

However, there is a place in the world for 4S outboards. First for people who can not be educate (Don't fight 'em ! Sell them what they want).

Second, for hulls that can handle the extra weight and applications that get many, many hours (1000's) of use per year, 4 S my be "better". Twins or triples, large (> 200HP) 2S outboards, even E-Tecs running XD100, use a lots of oil. I'm pretty certain, the "total cost of ownership" would be less for 4 strokes.

Remember that BRP also owns a (now very small) line of 4 stroke outboards. They also own one of the premier engine manufactures of the world, Rotax. The new Rotax V990 twin (http://www.rotax.com/en/Engine/2004/Motorcycle/Engine.Models.htm) makes 139hp (that is about 2.2hp/cubic inch, naturally aspirated !) This engine is used in the new BRP Spyder (http://spyder.brp.com/en-US/) and the new Buell 1125 (http://www.buell.com/en_us/bikes/sportbike/1125R/#)

So how about 250 hp V4 Johnson 4 stroke !

Stinky
10-01-2007, 09:46 AM
First, I think E-tec is amazing technology. Compared to Optimax and HPDI, it is sooooo much simpler ! In engineering and in life, Simpler is Better ! BRP took some of the money they saved on the injection system an put it in to better internal components (pistons, etc)

![/B][/I]

Except when it comes to DI. With DI technology, atomization (droplet size) of the fuel is the most important thing for emissions and fuel economy. Orbital with the air assist wins that one. But that just a biased opinion.:rolleyes:

AwesomeBullet
10-01-2007, 09:57 AM
Totally agree with the last statement. The Orbital system utilized by the Optimax is one of the best injection systems out there. If they could figure out a way to do away with the air compressor it would be that much better (less moving parts = less chit to break). Is the Etec the most fuel efficient? No. It falls right above the HPDI and below the Optimax. In reality I think it all boils down to what your local dealer sells and services, after all, we really can't wrench on these things under warranty. Hell, I don't even take the cowling off of my motor...lol

theoldwizard
10-01-2007, 11:57 AM
Stinky, Awesome,

Let's just agree to disagree !

I still stand on my previous statement. Simpler is Better !

E-tec1
10-02-2007, 04:56 PM
OMC had orbitals running ready for production in 95 they dumped it for the ficht, which evolved into the e-tec, less moving parts fuel economy is all based on set up and boat style,they are all very close, all im gonna say is the e-tec is much easier to work on

dzalj1
10-03-2007, 07:34 AM
you know, at work we where just talking about the ficht engines, and if omc/brp went to efi instead of ficht straight away, they would still be in buisness. because they went from carburetors straight to DI technology, and plus they had no clue or info on it before, thats where they stuffed up. if they went with efi' like the MERCS did and still do, while selling the efi engines, they could study the DI technology ,more deeply without having to worry of going bankrupt because of all the efi engines being sold. but hey, i only run them, and i cant be any more happier with my ol xflow. just my 0.2c,
dzalj1.

Stinky
10-03-2007, 11:47 AM
Stinky, Awesome,

Let's just agree to disagree !

I still stand on my previous statement. Simpler is Better !

I guess that would depend on your definition of "better":rolleyes: