V6 Johnson 200 not startin issue, any insight??

[TIZIK]

I am trying to start this motor for the first time and I believe the fuel pump is not pumping. The boat is an '85 Hydrostream Vantage xt. The engine is a V6 200 Johnson <!-- / message -->Model #: CJ200STLCCM.


I have checked all 6 cyls. for spark. Good
I have checked for compression. Good.
I changed the plugs for new ones.
I pulled the float bowl to check for varnished gas. Clean.
I drained all 6 carbs and the fuel tank. Refilled tank (1/4 full) with fresh gas.

The prime ball for the GAS works fine, but the one coming from the OIL tank was rock hard from day 1.

There are 3 wires coming out of the pump: Black - Brown - Grey

I have power on the brown one as soon as I turn on the main switch on the dash. Should there be power at the grey while cranking, assuming black is ground? Is there a switch for the pump that I should know about?

Also there are 4 switches on the dash to the right of the wheel.
(starting from left)
1. Bilge pump
2. Aerator for live well
3. ???
4. Main power switch with 3 positions - up = lights, ignition etc...
Middle = Off Down = light under switch comes on but unable to crank with key.

Can any one shed some insight on this?? Very desperate to get boat in water

[TIZIK]

Heres a photo of the pump.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p243/justgr6/BOAT2.jpg

[inspectorlance]

was there gas in the float bowls ? If so then the pump should be doing its job. Crank it over again and check the float bowls. Make sure your battery is topped off or on a charger.

[TIZIK]

Yes there is gas getting to the float bowls but I think I may have pumped it there with the prime ball. I have been looking at the carb assy and cant seem to find a choke, manual or auto. Should there be 1? Most other outboards I have seen has one, but I have never been this close to a motor this big.

Thanks for the patience and replies!

[baja200merk]

the wires going to the pump is for the VRO (Variable Ratio oiling) aka Very Rarely oils :rolleyes: . so they have nothing to do with the fuel pump, infact i have those wires disconnected because i do not use the oil injection, I MIX THE OIL IN THE FUEL TANK. The fuel pump runs off pulses from the #5 cyl, the pump is mechanical not electric so the fact you have power going to the Vro dont mean jack.. I would have to guess your not crankin it fast enough or your not feeding it enough fuel.
There is no choke on loopaz they have a primer, this is a small fuel pump used to spray fuel into the intake manifold while starting. When You hit the primer ( by pushing in your key) you should hear a little click and then sometimes you can hear the primer spraying fuel into the mota. I hold my primer down for 3 seconds before i even start cranking my looper over. Then i hold it down while cranking untill it fires off. This is how i have always done it and it works the fastest, the gurus will tell you loopas love fuel!
I would pump the ball till its hard then pump it 2 more times :D, then prime it for 3-5 seconds (make sure you can hear the click so you know the primer kicks on) keep the key pushed in while your crankin the motor. Try not to crank it for more then 10-15 seconds, if it doesnt fire off in that amount of time somthins not right. If it didnt fire off pull the plugs see how/if they are wet and check spark with the plugs in the motor, use a screw driver up agianst the block, your friends wet finger, whatever be sure its got spark while the plugs are in it. Im no pro, unfortunately just talkin from experience lol :rolleyes: If anything i said above is incorrect, correct me! :)

Let us know how you make out!
Kevin

[inspectorlance]

My motor likes a very strong battery. I've primed and cranked it over before without starting. It sounds like its cranking plenty fast, but wont start. Then I put it on the charger for a second, and it fires right up. Might also be due to my higher compresion. after she's warm or the batterys been topped of she will allways start right up.

Good luck

[baja200merk]

My motor likes a very strong battery. Then I put it on the charger for a second, and it fires right up. Might also be due to my higher compresion.
Good luck

Guess my 70psi compression is good for something :p :p :rolleyes: :o :(

Kevin:D

[TIZIK]

Baja200merk - Thanks a million. That pretty much answered my question about fueling and then some. I am now off to see if this summa'bitch will fire!!

Both you and Lance are right. The motor is cranking, at what seems pretty fast, but just does'nt wanna catch.

Thanks again for the speedy replies. I have only been on S&F for a few weeks and you guys have helped me enormously with your knowledge and experience. S&F members ROCK!!!!!

For future reference, if I was to disconnect the VRO, what type of ratio works well with marine engines?? I work on bikes and there are a few older 2-strokes with oil pumps that we disconnect, due to reliability issues.

[baja200merk]

yea some say the VRO is unreliable thats why its been dubbed Very rarely oils :D i run about 2 hand fulls of oil per 6 gallons

if you dont have a calibrated eyeball, forty to one with good oil works too :D

S&F is the only reason i have a boating problem!
kevin

[dynobo]

Baja gave you some very good info but one clarification if I may. The fuel primer-enrichner, what ever you want to call it is not pressurized. It doesn't inject fuel into the engine until the engine is actually turning over. Pushing the choke in prior to cranking the engine does nothing. All the choke does is energize the solenoid which opens and allows fuel to travel thru the solenoid and into the crankcase while the engine is cranking and the fuel pump is pulsing. If you notice the RED FLAG looking device on the primer, it is there so you can manually open the solenoid in the instance that your solenoid will not open elctrically. Just move the RED arm 180 degrees upward and pump your fuel bulb and it will pump fuel straight into your rear manifold so that you can manually choke it if need be. Just remember to close it back when you are done choking it. Hope she fires off for you.:)

[baja200merk]

Baja gave you some very good info but one clarification if I may. The fuel primer-enrichner, what ever you want to call it is not pressurized. It doesn't inject fuel into the engine until the engine is actually turning over. Pushing the choke in prior to cranking the engine does nothing. All the choke does is energize the solenoid which opens and allows fuel to travel thru the solenoid and into the crankcase while the engine is cranking and the fuel pump is pulsing. If you notice the RED FLAG looking device on the primer, it is there so you can manually open the solenoid in the instance that your solenoid will not open elctrically. Just move the RED arm 180 degrees upward and pump your fuel bulb and it will pump fuel straight into your rear manifold so that you can manually choke it if need be. Just remember to close it back when you are done choking it. Hope she fires off for you.:)
very very true! makes perfect sense i just never realized it doesn't work wit tha pulse pump unless your cranking. Mine always works cause i run an electric fuel pump at 5.5psi ;) :D

sorry if i caused any confusion TIZIK only hold the primer down while your crankin :)

good point dyno

kevin

[TIZIK]

WOOOOO-EFFFFIN-HOOOOO!!!!!!!! I did as suggested, and voila, it fired right up!! I really owe you guys. I planned to have my "maiden voyage" this weekend and you guys helped me get a lot closer to that goal.

Couple other things, How can I go about checking that the oil is actually pumping? And how can I check that the water pump/cooling system is working effectively?

DYNOBO - The red flag thing, just under the oil pump (vro), in normal condition, should be at 3 oclock correct?? Mine moves to 3 positions 12, 3 and 6 o'clock.

Sorry if these come across as newb questions but this is my first boat so these few lil things are unfamiliar to me. I would have never guessed in a million years to "push" the damn key!! I always turn my keys!! lol

Oh and not sure if it matters but I did exactly as Baja stated, (push and hold for a few seconds and then start) and it seemed to work for me fine that way. It took 2 or 3 times trying that but the motor has'nt ran in over a year, but either way, SHE RUNS!!!!

[baja200merk]

WOOOOO-EFFFFIN-HOOOOO!!!!!!!!
Oh and not sure if it matters but I did exactly as Baja stated, (push and hold for a few seconds and then start) and it seemed to work for me fine that way. It took 2 or 3 times trying that but the motor has'nt ran in over a year, but either way, SHE RUNS!!!!

As dynoob pointed out, the vro pump alone holding it down before cranking it does not push fuel into the motor because there is no fuel pressure, there is no fuel pressure cause the motor is not feeding pulses to the vro to make fuel pressure. So in your case there is no point in pushing it and holding it before you crank it over. push it in as soon as you start cranking at it will fire ;)

I don't mean to confuse you but in my case I have an electric fuel pump pumping fuel as soon as i turn on the key. So the primer has 5.5psi of fuel going to it as soon as the key is in the on position, this is why i can spray it for a few seconds before cranking it over. I really just hold it down cause i figure after sitting for a week at a time theres not much fuel in the primer lines for a second or two any way :rolleyes:

GLAD TO HEAR YOU GOT IT RUNNING!!! GOOD JOB!

Kevin

[dynobo]

Tizik, congrats on the "bust off". If the engine will crank and idle then the solenoid arm is in the right position, if not it would flood the engine out in a matter of a second or two.
As far as the water/ cooling system, don't even chance it. Go ahead and get you a water pump kit and change the impellor, cup and housing. They are not very expensive and you should be changing them every year or atleast every two years depending on how you use/abuse the engine.Per your model # the engine is a 1988 Johnson GT 200 and KEPT in stock condition they are pretty reliable as long as you take care of the general/preventive maintenance.

You said you were starting it for the first time but, didn't indicate how long it has been since it was started last. If you don't know the history of the engine it may very well be wise to remove the carbs and make sure they are not gummed up as well. Those big loopers love fuel and are very, very, very prone to melt downs if they run lean for any matter of time. I'm just trying to throw some " BEEN THERE DONE THAT " info your way. Not trying to ruin your free time with extra work, but if you neglect those loopers you will be getting a closer look at the inside of them. Spend a little time now making sure evrything is right and you will be able to enjoy the boat all summer and for years to come.

I'm not sure what the Vantage xt is but, I have a few STREAMS myself and they are very enjoyable boats. I have a '88 Voyager XT with a 2.4 Merc. mod Vp and it is a very sweet driving machine. Enjoy and be SAFE............

[jphii]

The little red arm should be at 6 o'clock for normal running.

[TIZIK]

Thanks jphii!

Dynobo - Those were my thoughts exactly. I have checked the carbs and they are clean. I do around 20 - 25 carb jobs per year on bikes that were stored with gas in the bowls so I'm quite familiar with that. From reading and searching threadfs, my understanding is that the water pump is in the lower case. Is this correct?

Still tryin to get the manual, cant find 1 at any marine shop by me, guess I'll have to order 1!! I will be working on the boat again tonight, hope all checks out ok!!!

[baja200merk]

yup you have to drop the lower and the pump is on the bottom of the drive shaft bolted to the top of the houseing. Its got four bolts and a plastic hose sticking strait up out of it. If you unbolt it and lift it up off of the drive shaft youll be looking at the impeller.

kevin

[dynobo]

TIZIK, if it weren't for the shift shaft, it would be a pretty simple job. You have to remove the shoulder bolt out of the shift shaft end and it is located under the carburetors. A 10mm swivel socket on a 12" extension (1/4 drive) is usually the easiest method. Just takes patience sometimes.
AS for the manual, e-bay is usually your best bet. For some reason when buying OMC manuals you had to buy the complete set that covered from the electric motors all the way thru the v-8 outboards. Usually was about 10-15 manuals in one set. They weren't cheap either. Just keep scanning e-bay and you will round one up in no time. For the '88 loopers probably any 88-92 year v-6 looper manual will work.

[callyer]

Hey.. this may be assumed.. but you are running this motor in water or with "muffs" on ... correct?? if you run it dry you will smoke the impellor.. I am sure you are probably doing it.. but I just didn't read anything about it in this post... A long time ago i had to learn the hard way.:(

[jphii]

If you need a manual I probably have one laying around. I'm cleaning up the shop today, I'll see if I can find it.

[TIZIK]

Well, its friday night and I have done all I can do for now, will have to hit the water tomm. for the "BIG DAY" and see how she does.

I took the advice of you guys and decided to just spring for a new water pump. Cost me a $100. It was prolly the best thing I could have done. The old 1 had severe dry rot. I bet that if i had used it, the first time that thing saw ~4500 rpm, it would have blown itself to pieces. It was that bad looking.

The job itself was really straight forward once I got familiar with how the LU came off. It actually went back on extremly easily.:D Well, thanks to the advice of you all!!

Once done, I fired it up, adjusted the red lever under the vro to 3o-clock, let it idle and in no time, I had water pressure and it was pissin out the "piss hole". All seemed to be 100%. No alarms, motor didnt feel hot to the touch, well compared to before, and it smoothed out to a beautifully soundin hum.:)

jphii - If you find it, let me know and we can set something up. If you're willing to part of course.

Thanks again to everyone who gave input, I found it all very valuable.
Keep an eye out for pics of my 'stream in the water, hopefully...