455 Olds Berkley Jet Question

[gatahiti]

Just purchased a Tahiti with Berkley pump and no engine. Have a 455, gonna go through it and build a mildly unstock engine (different cam, mostly reliability upgrades nothing fancy). Probably gonna change pistons to arrive at 9.5-10:1 static compression. I got all the marine pieces, front cover, manifolds, risers, driveline, three point mount with the boat. What i did not get was a flywheel. Do I run an automatic style flexplate just for the starting ring? Or do i need to locate a manual trans type flywheel? :confused: My instinct and gut feeling says i need the heavier flywheel for proper idling and to dampen the engine.

My current engine plan is:
455 probably punched .030 to clean up block with flat top pistons
G heads (80cc chamber) large valves
polished and balanced rods
balanced rotating assembly
comp cams hydraulic cam for A impeller (most likely what it has in it will verify before cam order)+compatible springs
through hull exhaust
8-10 quart oil pan with trap doors for oil control
stock intake until i can afford something better
HEI distributor w/ MSD module w/rev limiter
bypass thermostat kit

I have an industrial relief valve that can be set to 10-50ish psi to provide a low pressure water supply to the engine.

How does the bypass thermostat work? I read on a website that the big block fords can use a a standard marine thermostat with bleed holes drilled into the plate of the thermostat. Could a bypass system on the olds engine be created by placing a restrictor into a stock style bypass line and dumping this overboard? This would create a flow of water by the thermostat as it is heated from the engine. When the water heats enough to open the thermostat more would flow and bring the temperature back down. But if plumbed the traditional way of using the manifolds as preheaters would this cause really hot water to flow into the engine from the manifolds? or is this a non issue due to the continuous flow through the bypass? I dont think I should take the manifolds out of the loop because then it seems i would then introduce really cold water to the engine when the thermostat opens as there is no preheat. My worry is if there is not enough flow through the bypass, will the manifolds overheat? On a side note boats running headers have no preheat.... :confused: So i could just plump a second line from the pump through the manifolds and cool them that way and dump into the risers. Then come off the relief valve and into the front cover inlets, and off the thermostat housing with my two lines to also go to the risers and dump engine water and somewhere plumb the bypass line in there. Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

One other thing, is there an ARP bolt number to fasten the PTO and flywheel to the crankshaft?

Thanks,
Eli

[150aintenuff]

hope you plan to do the oil mods to the block so it drains back through the traps fast enough that the pump wont run dry........ otherwise your stuck at less than 5500 RPM........

[sleekcrafter]

Here is a diagram of the bypass, unless your running dry or injected headers, you will need the bypass, if using a T-stat. http://www.cpperformance.com/Instructions/540-160200.pdf

[MADDOG355]

I can't help you with the thermostat info (I don't run one in my Olds). As for the flywheel, I am running a manual type but, a friend is running a small block Chevy with a auto flexplate with no ill effects. As for the bolts you will most likely have to get them from a place that sells jet boat stuff.

Also you should check out the forums at realoldspower.com. They even have a boats section and can steer you in the right direction on where to get parts and how to deal with the oil return problems.

[150aintenuff]

as far as bolts which ones are you looking for ... coupler is just if I remember right the same bolts that are used to attach a clutch.... and you want the manual flywheel..... flex plates dont always have a way to bolt on the couplers if yours attaches that way.... some pumps used a spline engagement and a flexplate would work

[sleekcrafter]

Auto flex plats work fine, use a heavy duty one, they flex less when the starter engages. I've used them for 15 years with no problems. The drive shaft bolts to a PTO adapter, that gets bolted to the crank, on the Olds 1310 and 1350 are the two PTO adapter sizes, 1310 is the most common.

[Propster]

Don't run a thermostat or water pump in a jet boat. Gate valves or pressure reducers are probably required to prevent overpressurization and blowing gaskets. The cooling system in a jet is an unpressurized system would probably overheat if ran hard with a thermostat. The jet pump is the waterpump, the pressure line coming off the pump to the engine always has water pressure when engine is running when the boat is in the water. You can tee into this line to run the boat on the hose.

You can get the motor out in 20 minutes, so it would not be a big deal to test the flex plate.

Go to Mondello Performance Products http://www.mondellotwister.com for performance tips and oil system mods to prevent pumping all the oil into the valve covers and starving the motor. Cranks and rods are getting hard to find. The motor in a car would not do this as car motors are only run wide open for less than a minute. You could be wide open for 30 minutes or more in a jetboat.

[gatahiti]

I figured the standard restrictors+polish the returns in the block and heads would help the return. Had already intended on either drilling the heads for four corner returns or putting fittings in the valve covers. Dont have the vlve covers off the engine i have yet so I didnt know which was more feasible. Have been looking around the Mondello site alot. I think the bypass thermostat kit looks liek a good thing. I have seen alot of different people using those. I may just slide a stock engine (with oil mods) in it for the remainder of the summer. We'll see. Supposed to go pick it up tomorrow.

Thanks for the link to realoldspower. It looks like a good site. I wish someone made marine parts for the 472 and 500 cubic inch caddy motors.

This site:
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.html

Quotes the 500 and 472 as weighing 595-625 pounds stock. This jives with everything i have read saying it is slightly heavier than a small block chevy. This puts it a bit under the big block chevy which typically tips the scales at 675 or so. According to the above table it also puts the Olds in the running at 605-620. Even taking these measurements with a lump of salt, this is compatible to the Caddy engine. My three point mount will work out back as it shares the BOP pattern on the bell housing and a front cradle mount would be easily built. A PTO adapter could easily be machined locally. That leaves the VERY EXPENSIVE proposition of custom headers :(

These engines have a pretty decent following from the local airboat crowd. The turn them up pretty high through belt redrives. They dont blow up. Stock engines make a good bit of power and are fairly easily obtained here. Hopped up ones make alot of power and still dont blow up. I have not heard of any oiling system issues from the airboat guys. I may look at this route rather than a really hot Oldsmobile engine in the future. I know BBC is the preferred route, but they are $$$$$$$$ here for just cores of desirable engines. Even almost worthless engines such as 366s are fairly expensive. I am just kicking the caddy thought around, would probably be going into uncharted territory.

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Just purchased a Tahiti with Berkley pump and no engine. Have a 455, gonna go through it and build a mildly unstock engine (different cam, mostly reliability upgrades nothing fancy). Probably gonna change pistons to arrive at 9.5-10:1 static compression. I got all the marine pieces, front cover, manifolds, risers, driveline, three point mount with the boat. What i did not get was a flywheel. Do I run an automatic style flexplate just for the starting ring? Or do i need to locate a manual trans type flywheel? :confused: My instinct and gut feeling says i need the heavier flywheel for proper idling and to dampen the engine.

My current engine plan is:
455 probably punched .030 to clean up block with flat top pistons
G heads (80cc chamber) large valves
polished and balanced rods
balanced rotating assembly
comp cams hydraulic cam for A impeller (most likely what it has in it will verify before cam order)+compatible springs
through hull exhaust
8-10 quart oil pan with trap doors for oil control
stock intake until i can afford something better
HEI distributor w/ MSD module w/rev limiter
bypass thermostat kit

I have an industrial relief valve that can be set to 10-50ish psi to provide a low pressure water supply to the engine.

How does the bypass thermostat work? I read on a website that the big block fords can use a a standard marine thermostat with bleed holes drilled into the plate of the thermostat. Could a bypass system on the olds engine be created by placing a restrictor into a stock style bypass line and dumping this overboard? This would create a flow of water by the thermostat as it is heated from the engine. When the water heats enough to open the thermostat more would flow and bring the temperature back down. But if plumbed the traditional way of using the manifolds as preheaters would this cause really hot water to flow into the engine from the manifolds? or is this a non issue due to the continuous flow through the bypass? I dont think I should take the manifolds out of the loop because then it seems i would then introduce really cold water to the engine when the thermostat opens as there is no preheat. My worry is if there is not enough flow through the bypass, will the manifolds overheat? On a side note boats running headers have no preheat.... :confused: So i could just plump a second line from the pump through the manifolds and cool them that way and dump into the risers. Then come off the relief valve and into the front cover inlets, and off the thermostat housing with my two lines to also go to the risers and dump engine water and somewhere plumb the bypass line in there. Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?

One other thing, is there an ARP bolt number to fasten the PTO and flywheel to the crankshaft?

Thanks,
Eli

Here is the standard cooling water set-up for a jet boat with the manifold/riser system you have.

http://files.triton.net/old1/cooling.jpg

You can run a flex plate or a flywheel, you will see no difference in performance. I run a flex plate.

I recommend a relief valve to dump excess water. Mine is set to open at 9 psi. Olds engines do not like much pressure in the cooling water.

A jet pump works exactly like a water brake on a Dyno. Engine rpm is determined by the pump impeller AND the throttle position. There is a heavy load on the engine 100% of the time that the boat is on plane. The load generates a lot of heat. The rotating assy. gets very hot. If the block is cold (no thermostat), you have the makings of a grenade. Because of the temperature issues, larger clearances are required in a marine engine. Standard automotive clearances will not work in a marine application. I run a thermostat.

An oil cooler would be a valuable add-on for your application.

I've been running Olds engines in jet boats for the past 23 years. Learned a bunch of stuff the hard way.

[150aintenuff]

Go to Mondello Performance Products http://www.mondellotwister.com for performance tips and oil system mods to prevent pumping all the oil into the valve covers and starving the motor. Cranks and rods are getting hard to find. The motor in a car would not do this as car motors are only run wide open for less than a minute. You could be wide open for 30 minutes or more in a jetboat.



they would even do it in a car at over 6000 in less than 30 seconds..... a 455 was my first engine rebuild after I helped one go up in flames of glory as a sophmore in highschool... after that I had to do the 360 FE ford in my dads truck for the same reason..... to many revs for to long and loss of oil pressure... not good...

[OldSleekOlds]

I got all my Olds parts and help from Mondello. This was before I knew about ROP. There are many good sources for Olds parts and help. When you get help make sure it's from someone with REAL actual marine application experience. Some of the info I got from Mondello would have been great for drag racing. I spent a lot of $$$ finding that out.

[gatahiti]

I think i have a semi-largish oil to water cooler in the shop from a diesel of some sort. It isnt huge (well....not like v12 caterpillar huge...) but should get the job done. IIRC it was tube and shell with about fifty tubes, twelve inches or so in length, I will see about fitting that. Should it go straight off the pump or after the logs? I think I have a smaller cooler as well but unsure of where it is at the moment. Its of the single tube within a tube type. I am certain I can come up with something. Should I machine a housing for a small motorcycle type thermostat with a bypass in it for the oil cooler as well, or will enough constant oil heat be generated to set the temperature on the cooler (especially if i have a largish cooler) with a flow valve? If I can get the thermostat to work out properly it seems to me it would be far less fiddlesome. But very fiddle with it to get working correctly int he first place. I know they make an oil thermostat but i would prefer to not have anything in the oil path like that. The worse thing if a water thermostat on the oil cooler dies is the oil temp begins rising from lack fo water flow in the cooler. I worry if the oil thermostat fails somehow (i have never seen this but...) then chunks of thermostat could possibly go along their way into the oil gallery...

I too will run a flexplate as I have those. Thank you for the diagrams. I think those will be a big help. I have the bypass thermostat housing on my list now, as well as a relief valve that can be adjusted lower.

How much should I open the spec up on the bottom end? couple hundred thousand?.002-.004 over middle of stock spec clearance? On mains and rods or just mains? Does piston to bore clearance need to be increased or just the rotating components? i know the rotating assembly will need to be rebalanced, so polishing the crank to a little bit looser fit should be a piece of cake for the machine shop while its in being balanced.

I will try to dig up the cooler for pics/talk sometime soon.

Eli

[150aintenuff]

in a marine environment the more oil cooling you get the better.. run it in the cold water lines and leve it un restricted as far as water flow goes..... there will be enough heat comming from the engine to get oil temps upwards of 230+ easily on a hard run even with the cooler.... and you also want the engine to run south of 160 on the temp....... moroso makes restrictors that allow the water to slow down to build up a bit of temp but not allow a fullopen circut... even on blower equiped motors you can get temps down around 140-160 MAX on a long full throttle run... you dont want things getting hot.... almost as important as keeping the oil south of the cylinder heads.....

[OldSleekOlds]

I think i have a semi-largish oil to water cooler in the shop from a diesel of some sort. It isnt huge (well....not like v12 caterpillar huge...) but should get the job done. IIRC it was tube and shell with about fifty tubes, twelve inches or so in length, I will see about fitting that. Should it go straight off the pump or after the logs? I think I have a smaller cooler as well but unsure of where it is at the moment. Its of the single tube within a tube type. I am certain I can come up with something. Should I machine a housing for a small motorcycle type thermostat with a bypass in it for the oil cooler as well, or will enough constant oil heat be generated to set the temperature on the cooler (especially if i have a largish cooler) with a flow valve? If I can get the thermostat to work out properly it seems to me it would be far less fiddlesome. But very fiddle with it to get working correctly int he first place. I know they make an oil thermostat but i would prefer to not have anything in the oil path like that. The worse thing if a water thermostat on the oil cooler dies is the oil temp begins rising from lack fo water flow in the cooler. I worry if the oil thermostat fails somehow (i have never seen this but...) then chunks of thermostat could possibly go along their way into the oil gallery...

I too will run a flexplate as I have those. Thank you for the diagrams. I think those will be a big help. I have the bypass thermostat housing on my list now, as well as a relief valve that can be adjusted lower.

How much should I open the spec up on the bottom end? couple hundred thousand?.002-.004 over middle of stock spec clearance? On mains and rods or just mains? Does piston to bore clearance need to be increased or just the rotating components? i know the rotating assembly will need to be rebalanced, so polishing the crank to a little bit looser fit should be a piece of cake for the machine shop while its in being balanced.

I will try to dig up the cooler for pics/talk sometime soon.

Eli

My oil cooler is a small shell/tube type heat exchanger. I can't find a pic of it. It's about 2" dia. and about 10" long. It is large enough for my engine (470 hp.). The water goes through the oil cooler first.

I recommend .006" bore clearance. I would need to do some digging to find what I used for rod and main clearance.

Check this out....
http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18203

Hot Boat had an excellent article about building an Olds. You can get a copy of a back issue for $10. I have a friend who builds high performance engines (for the past 30 years) and he said it's by far the best engine building article he has ever seen. I recommend that anyone building an Olds get a copy of the magazine. It's worth way more than $10.

[OldSleekOlds]

You can see some of the plumbing here

http://files.triton.net/old1/olds_front.jpg

The fuel system is mounted temporary for Dyno

[gatahiti]

Are those two fittings in the front of the pan part of the four corner return oil system? Where does the other end plumb? To the heads or to the valve covers?

I will acquire that back issue, it sounds really worthwhile from what i have read on the other forum!

I went and got the boat yesterday, it pulls like a dream on the trailer and road home in seventies style...aluminum slot ansen sprint mags :-D It isnt so bad, the string in the keel needs replacing, I will most likely replce the board that sits perpendicular to the stringers in front of the engine. When it was originally installed, the drain hole for the bilge was located about an inch above the keel, so apparently water could get stuck in there so its a little soft. I figure it would be best to go ahead and address this while completing the floor repair. I think i will also place a small hatch at this area to clean out any debris that might somehow find its way into this portion of the bilge. Does anyone run a under floor fuel tank in these boats? I was thinking of a 40 gallon tank but sticking it up under the front deck like factory seems like maybe thats a good bit of weight out front. Any pros or cons? I am starting with no place diverter or jet-o-vator so i have no way of retrimming to compensate for the fuel weight... I am in the market for either of those units :) (isnt every jet boater just starting out?)

Lots of good things about it though. The trailer had new hubs and bearings a couple of years back with the bearing protectors in place. They ran cool and quiet all 98 miles home. The pump spins smooth and free, the previous owner said it had only a few hours run time on it since a rebuild. Rebuilder's sticker is on the side and is in great condition. He told me it had a bronze impeller in it. At the time i was busy putting new lights on the trailer and it didnt really dawn on me what he said until later. Today I pulled the handhole and looked in at the impeller... its got a slight green tarnish to it and looks a dull bronze color. I wouldnt think this is a bad thing...? All of the blades have a nice sharp leading edge with no nicks that i could feel. Everything in the steering bushings and reverse diverter is tight, reverse cable is free, steering cable is not. All of the engine parts are Harmann Marine. I hadnt heard of them before. The manifolds and risers are in very good condition from what i can tell (will pressure test sometime in the near future) and all the pieces seem to be there. The PTO doesnt use an adapter plate like i was expecting, instead the yoke is drilled to match the olds crankshaft. four bolts go through yoke, flexplate into crank two just go through the flexplate.

I have been too busy to tear down the one 455 i already have, and the other one hasnt made its way to me yet. We shall see what is usable in each. I forsee a punching and new pistons.

And...I washed my engineless, floorless, seatless, windshieldless boat. I wanted to see how bad the gelcoat/paint below the aluminum trim would look clean. So I washed all fo it and waxed part of it. I think it will be presentable from the trim down. No cracks or gouges, lots of little scratches here and there nothing that appears dangerous. Nothing that looks horrible. I figure I will probably put a few more in it before i master driving it, especially in close quarters.

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Are those two fittings in the front of the pan part of the four corner return oil system? Where does the other end plumb? To the heads or to the valve covers?

I will acquire that back issue, it sounds really worthwhile from what i have read on the other forum!

I went and got the boat yesterday, it pulls like a dream on the trailer and road home in seventies style...aluminum slot ansen sprint mags :-D It isnt so bad, the string in the keel needs replacing, I will most likely replce the board that sits perpendicular to the stringers in front of the engine. When it was originally installed, the drain hole for the bilge was located about an inch above the keel, so apparently water could get stuck in there so its a little soft. I figure it would be best to go ahead and address this while completing the floor repair. I think i will also place a small hatch at this area to clean out any debris that might somehow find its way into this portion of the bilge. Does anyone run a under floor fuel tank in these boats? I was thinking of a 40 gallon tank but sticking it up under the front deck like factory seems like maybe thats a good bit of weight out front. Any pros or cons? I am starting with no place diverter or jet-o-vator so i have no way of retrimming to compensate for the fuel weight... I am in the market for either of those units :) (isnt every jet boater just starting out?)

Lots of good things about it though. The trailer had new hubs and bearings a couple of years back with the bearing protectors in place. They ran cool and quiet all 98 miles home. The pump spins smooth and free, the previous owner said it had only a few hours run time on it since a rebuild. Rebuilder's sticker is on the side and is in great condition. He told me it had a bronze impeller in it. At the time i was busy putting new lights on the trailer and it didnt really dawn on me what he said until later. Today I pulled the handhole and looked in at the impeller... its got a slight green tarnish to it and looks a dull bronze color. I wouldnt think this is a bad thing...? All of the blades have a nice sharp leading edge with no nicks that i could feel. Everything in the steering bushings and reverse diverter is tight, reverse cable is free, steering cable is not. All of the engine parts are Harmann Marine. I hadnt heard of them before. The manifolds and risers are in very good condition from what i can tell (will pressure test sometime in the near future) and all the pieces seem to be there. The PTO doesnt use an adapter plate like i was expecting, instead the yoke is drilled to match the olds crankshaft. four bolts go through yoke, flexplate into crank two just go through the flexplate.

I have been too busy to tear down the one 455 i already have, and the other one hasnt made its way to me yet. We shall see what is usable in each. I forsee a punching and new pistons.

And...I washed my engineless, floorless, seatless, windshieldless boat. I wanted to see how bad the gelcoat/paint below the aluminum trim would look clean. So I washed all fo it and waxed part of it. I think it will be presentable from the trim down. No cracks or gouges, lots of little scratches here and there nothing that appears dangerous. Nothing that looks horrible. I figure I will probably put a few more in it before i master driving it, especially in close quarters.

Eli

The heads have drains at the rear only. 3/8" NPT...

http://files.triton.net/old1/drain2.jpg

Most folks just drain the rear because that's where most of the oil is gonna be. Seems to be adequate.

I have had several jet boats that had the one, and only, fuel tank under the front deck. I have heard of gas tanks under the floor. Because gas fumes are heavy you could have a deadly fuel leak and not know until it went boom. I wouldn't want fuel under my floor for that reason. First choice would be saddle tanks (one each side...mine hold more than 40 gallons combined), then a single tank under the front deck if saddle tanks were not possible.

Considering that you have a bare hull, this would be a great time to check the bottom to make sure there is no "hook" in it. If you need to fix a hook problem, now is MUCH easier than later. If it has any hook, you will want to correct it......now or later.

Harmin Marine is not uncommon. Their stuff is as good as most. The greatest obstacle to performance is the exhaust system. No need spending big bucks on the intake side unless you switch to headers first. The Edelbrock "Performer" intake seems to work best with the exhaust system you describe.

It sounds like the jet pump is in good shape. Avoid running it out of the water, and it will likely stay that way for a long time.

[gatahiti]

You answered my next question already! I was about to ask about running it on the trailer. I will most likely put my engine in with no H-bar to fire it up and run it and break the cam in. It looks like a good way to check out my cooling system and all too. I have access to a 2 inch water hose with around 120 pounds of pressure on it so I can test my relief valve system out and basically have no issues on my first outing (I hope..!)

It will probably be awhile before i can afford to go away from my current exhaust system :( But I can still have fun! I probably dont need a hot hot motor anyway. I need to learn to drive this thing. Thank you for all of your help

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Just remember that without power, it's difficult to impossible to steer a jet boat.

[gatahiti]

what exactly is hook in the hull? And how do i correct it?

i know someone with one of those seadoo jet boats...maybe driving that could be of benefit...

where do saddle tanks sit at in the hull?

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

what exactly is hook in the hull? And how do i correct it?

i know someone with one of those seadoo jet boats...maybe driving that could be of benefit...

where do saddle tanks sit at in the hull?

Eli

There are 3 basic shapes (front to back) possible for a boat bottom. Rocker, hook, and flat. If you look at the side profile of a boat hull, you see that the front bottom curves up to the deck, the rear bottom is sort of chopped off, and the bottom of the part in the middle is pretty much flat. This middle part is where there can be a problem. If you a 48" straight edge held against the bottom from the transom forward and look where it touches, you can have:

1. Touches all along the 48" length = flat
2. Touches somewhere in the center and not on both ends = rocker
3. Touches on both ends w/gap under center = hook.

Rocker, if excessive, will cause porpoise.
Hook will act like big suction cup and hold the front of the boat down, limiting speed.
Flat (or straight) works fine.

If a boat is stored on a trailer that does not support it properly, it will often develop a "hook".

The hook can be corrected by filling the low areas.

Saddle tanks fit along the sides of the boat. They come in a variety of shapes. They usually start a foot or so ahead of the transom and are about 3-4 ft long. It's a matter of what will fit in the space available. There is a fill cap on each side of the boat.

[OldSleekOlds]

Good info on removing hook here

http://www.banderlog.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2575&highlight=jeff+bennet

[Propster]

Wish I had this diagram when I had my first jetboat that had log manifolds ('74 18 Sidewinder 455/Berkley)!

[QUOTE=OldSleekOlds;1109697]Here is the standard cooling water set-up for a jet boat with the manifold/riser system you have.

http://files.triton.net/old1/cooling.jpg

QUOTE]

[gatahiti]

I really dont think my hull came with a Berkley originally. Is the cutout for a jacuzzi pump (in the transom) smaller than a berkley? The reason I ask is the cutout for the pump is not as cleanly done as the finish of the rest of the hull. It actually looks rather crude in a couple of spots, like the berkley pump was retrofitted. Since I plan on a reseal of the drive I will probably remedy how it looks from the inside. After June 2nd work can begin in earnest.

Thanks for the link on the hook, it makes sense now. It may be winter before I address this. I plan on trying to get in the water this season. How can I be sure my trailer is properly supporting the hull? Since my boat will be stored on its trailer with engine in place do I need to do anything special? Maybe a support to be put in place during storage to prevent the hull from being warped? Should support be applied directly to the transom? My current trailer's supports catch the boat under the next outermost chine (if i recall correctly) and come back to about a foot and a half in front of the transom. I do not like how this is currently as it seems the boat is supported in a somewhat weak area halfway between stringers. You can see the hull slightly flex if you climb over in it. I worry about the weight of the engine and hitting potholes. Does anyone have a reccomended drawing of where the trailer and hull should contact each other?

Eli

[sleekcrafter]

Back in the day when they cranked them out, rigging quality was not job one in many shops, just the curb appeal was all that mattered. The holes were cut with what ever was handy at the time, such as jigsaw, skill saw or even a cut off wheel. Jaccuzzi pump openings were much wider than the Berkeley, It may have been equiped with a Panther jet, at one time.

[gatahiti]

yeesh... I dont think I can deal with how raggedy it looks! Shouldnt be horrific to remedy though.

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Here's what a Berkley (top) and Jacuzzi cutout CAN look like. Could also depend on what day and who did it.

http://files.triton.net/old1/cut_compare.jpg

If you provide support under the stringers that support the engine, that would be a good place to start. If the stringers are short stubs, run the support forward at least as far as straight support will contact the hull. Additional support each side of the main support will help when you haul it on the trailer.

I was able to remove a slight hook in the bottom of an Avenger I had by supporting it at 3 points for the 6 month winter layup. I cut two 4X4's the correct length to stand on end under each rear corner of the boat at the transom. Then I jacked up the front of the trailer until the boat was supported only by the 4X4's and the very front of the keel. The weight of the motor was enough to correct the crooked bottom. It was a pleasant surprise in the Spring when I checked to see just how bad the hook was and found it completely gone.

The Avenger had short stubby stringers and a really lousy trailer. Sometimes you can get lucky.

[gatahiti]

I posted over int he fiberglass forum some questions about my stringer replacement. I dont think anyone wants to touch this :-P

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133193

btw i like that hull!!

[sleekcrafter]

I replaced one stringer in my Southwind tunnel, and did bottom repair behind the pump. All work done with West systems at the time, MAS is more readily available to me now a days.

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/7363100_0302-med.JPG


Rough shaping and ready for finish coat.

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/7363100_0303-med.JPG

[gatahiti]

So if i do a decent job of prep and follow the directions i shouldnt have an issue with things sticking together? It is a 150+ miles drive to the nearest West dealer (per their website). I am unsure about the MAS stuff as their website is too high bandwidth for my home connection. I am guessing its probably about the same. So I am stuck with mail order :)

I pulled the Jet out tonight, I only have the intake in the hull now. I caught a devil of a time getting the plate off of the back of the hull. Yellow plastic embem adhesive, the gasket and a couple of tubes of caulk make for a very hard time. Plus the big O ring around the bowl was so hard that it wouldnt let the plate come off. I had to resort to bumping it with a board from inside. I have a very good idea the reason for all of the sealant stems from the way the transom is made. It only has a plywood core for the bottom four or five inches, further up is simply fiberglass about 3/16th of an inch thick. It was impossible to tell with all of the glue but I think maybe the transom wasnt stiff enough to compress the gasket around the entire perimeter of the plate, so it leaked. I plan on remedying this by laminating in plywood all the way around the jet opening. I have a couple more pictures that I snapped tonight. These show the plywood core in the transom as well as the broken free stringer.

As much as I hate it to say it, I may swap to chrysler power. Finding a usable complete Olds core has proven much more difficult than anticipated. The one 455 I have will need to be punched to 60 thousandths due to getting water in the cylinders. I have become less picky and started telling people i will accept 425s and 403s :p I already have a couple of B series Chryslers, nice intakes, but no marine parts. endless cycle. They are my favorite big block engine besides the 472-500 caddy. The only affordable exhaust option i have seen however is a log type manifold which looks tiny for the B series (especially when building those 451inch B with RB internals strokers). I dont want to go to over the transom headers because there is already a huge hoopla about noise on the lake now.

I went and saw a guy who had a 455, complete. It was laying upside down on the ground behind his shop and was a 68-69 year engine. This means no hardened valve seats if the heads have never been off. Inspection showed ALOT of grease and grime for this "low mileage" engine. Ring gear on flex plate had rather worn teeth so either it was from another much much higher mileage engine or this was the little old lady car who started it everyday to go to the grocery store 1 mile away. His asking price was $850, I couldnt stomach that because i could look at it and tell it wasnt a low miles engine, he couldnt give me a good reason why it was pulled ("uhh uhh just put another in the car" What are you gonna convert to in a 68-69 delta 88...a 260? ) and he kept saying the heads were really desireable. They were not Cs, I specifically looked for the C and they were not Gs (hardened seats) or any of the other good ones (per the 442 site). So basically I felt like he was trying to pawn off a worn out 455 with probably a blown rod bearing for a premium price just because he thought the heads were something special. $850 will buy forged pistons and pay for the bore job on my block with money leftover to go toward the rest of the build. I know I have a good crank and rods as this was a rebuilt engine which apparently used oil after the rebuild for some reason. I am thinking most likely a result of an attempt to further knurl valve guides to compensate for wear or something. Who knows?

Sorry I kinda got off the fiberglass subject and back onto engines. I will price both systems thorugh mail order see which is economical. From what i have read the MAS system seems to be nice and easy to work with. That would be a big plus. I am used to throwing resin and hardener together in the right proportions and going at it. Epoxy seems like it requires a little more patience but the rewards are worth it. Will Epoxy not stick to pressure treated lumber like polyester wont? (according to what i have read ont he forum...) It is kind of a moot point as I intend to encapsulate everything so it doesnt have to be treated. I will go in search of fur as suggested tomorrow if i can find it. I do not know if it will be available locally. Most likely it will.

I will try to post new pics tomorrow. And on monday I will order one of those starter epoxy kits and lay up some flat panels to learn to use the stuff. Do you think i should move this into a new thread?

Thanks for all of your help,
Eli

[Propster]

Standard 455 cranks are really hard to find. Turning them removes the hardened nitrited layer, so machined cranks do not live too long. They can be renitrited after turning, but you would have to find a speciality heat treat shop to do it. A 425 might be a better motor for a jet. 425's have steel cranks. Also, most machine shops can install hardened seats and guides with little difficulty.

Not sure if resins will stick to pressure treated wood. Usually pressure treated wood is wet with the chemicals. Maybe after it dries out.

[gatahiti]

I have pretty much ditched treated wood. I am gonna just encapsulate plain good quality wood with fiberglass. I couldnt find anything straight enough in pressure treated anyway.

I am really considering the swap to Chrysler power.

Do the nodular iron cranks fair as bad as the plain jane ones?

Maybe I should reinvestigate the 68 engine. It could be a forged crank.

[Propster]

The nodular crank is better steel than regular cast cranks. The nitriding makes the surface even harder. I had a crank turned .30 under in one of the 455 's in my old jetboat and it did not live long. When I put it back together, I looked long and hard to find a standard crank for it. The motor never had another problem as long as I had it. One more thing, spot weld or glue the pickup to the oil pump. My first motor ran excellent until the pickup fell off. That was a bad day, no boat for the rest of the summer.

Chrysler power would definately be cool, but more intensive as you will need to get a different bellhousing (might be able to make one from an automatic or manual bell housing), flywheel coupler (or remachine to fit), motor mounts and exhaust.

[gatahiti]

The only horrible thing is the exhaust. I am stuck with through transom stuff because of noise. Glenwood marine still lists a bellhousing and pto in its catalog. The exhaust is listed as well but is hideously expensive for logs. I have seen some Barr manifolds for the big chrysler, but I do not know if these are performance oriented enough to work in a jet boat application. I think these were center dump. The factory Chrysler marine items were true logs with a plate on one end and the riser on the other IIRC.

I guess i should post on the wanted section for chyrsler parts. Who knows what may be lurking in someone's basement!

Of course the crank in the 455 I have may be standard/standard.

Still throwing around alot of ideas. The Cadillac engine is still appealing.
http://www.cad500parts.com/catalog/page9.htm
It will also bolt to my 3 point mount bellhousing


Their dyno numbers are decent on a relatively mild engine. The 451 mopar engine is also interesting as it is easily obtainable from off the shelf parts and can use a blown up steel 440 crank and a dirt cheap 400 B block.

Who knows...will probably end up with an olds for now. Gotta get stringers before i worry about that though :-D

[sleekcrafter]

This guy has about anything that has ever been made for jetboats
reach him at Jim Brock 818-890-1867 after 10 AM he wheels and deals in used jetboat hardware, If he don't have it he'll know where it is.;)