Molinari Tunnel and Merc Twister

[Swamp Master]

Can anybody tell me if this set up is rare? The guy says that he has a really small stainless prop that belongs to the motor. He also tells me that it would do nearly 100mph. Is he full of it or what? Where can I find out what it's worth? Sorry for posting the links, but the pictures wouldn't show up
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512548/fullsize/dsc00820.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512540/fullsize/dsc00821.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512539/fullsize/dsc00814.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512537/fullsize/dsc00813.jpg
http://http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512540/fullsize/dsc00821.jpg
http://http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512539/fullsize/dsc00814.jpg
http://http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512537/fullsize/dsc00813.jpg
http://http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512548/fullsize/dsc00820.jpg

[terry taylor]

HI. Yes, at this point in time many would be interested . It is a piece of history a collectable. It relates to a very popular era of racing . Is the boat rotted at all ? Does the engine turn, or does it run? Asking price? thanks.

[Raceman]

There's a lot of interest in old raceboats. From the picture it's impossible to tell what the engine is. IF.......... it's a Twister or Twister1 it has the wrong front faceplate and wraparound, as well as the stickers. It isn't a stock shortshaft Merc with that mid section and SSM gearcase. Since Merc never made a louvered cowl that would go on the Twister with it's log out the other side, the motor is most likely something else, probably a combination of parts from a lot of different years. It would take somebody that's REAL SHARP with sheet metal work to put that cowl on a Twister, assuming it's not severely butchered on the other side. A picture of the engine with the wraparound cowl removed and also one of the other side would answer a lot of questions.

[wireless]

Where is this boat located?

[Swamp Master]

Thanks for all of the replies. I will get more pictures to see if it will help answer questions. As far as the Merc Twister; I just went by the name plate on the motor. Here is a link to that picture http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512727/fullsize/dsc00815.jpg
In my uneducated opinion the boat shows no signs of deterioration.
I didn't not hear the motor run, but the current owner swears it runs great. When I am out getting pictures I will put a charger on the battery to see if it turns over.
So what is this thing worth if it's solid and the motor runs? Also I know nothing about the Merc Twister so how do we tell if this isn't some experimental motor or just some painted up plain Merc.
Thanks
Craig

[terry taylor]

HI. Did all factory inline twisters have the 6 carbs? raceman maybe?

[Raceman]

Also I know nothing about the Merc Twister so how do we tell if this isn't some experimental motor or just some painted up plain Merc.
Thanks
Craig


The cowl is wrong for a Twister. The Twisters had a big exhaust log on the left side of the motor. The stickers ARE NOT Twister either, with the exception of the rear one, which is obviously from a Twister sticker set. Again, pictures of the powerhead would answer a lot of questions. Here's some things to look for:

The already mentioned external exhaust log on the left side of the motor required a large square hole in the mid for the log to connect to below the cowl. IF..... the hole is there, then the mid section is from a Twister. I've seen people run these mids with other powerheads and the log removed with a plate bolted over it. If there is no hole in the left side, in other words if the mid looks the same on the left as it does on the right, then it's a SUPER BP mid section which was from the late 60's. (69 only as far as privateer stuff goes). If that's the case, then the powerhead MUST BE 1971 or older or it won't bolt up to the mid without an adapter which makes a mess in the exhaust area under the powerhead. So, plated mid section with no log, 72 or newer powerhead, plain mid on left, 71 or older. YOU CAN COUNT ON THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT AN "EXPERIMENTAL MOTOR".

Here's some info on early Twisters:
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47333&highlight=Twister

Here's a picture of one of my Twister1's. You can see the differences in the stickers (the black stripe goes all the way cowl to cowl, instead of having blue on both ends) and the front face plate. There are also pics of the exhaust log.

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93376&highlight=Twister

[Raceman]

HI. Did all factory inline twisters have the 6 carbs? raceman maybe?

The first engine in the series was called simply "Twister" with no number designation and had red stickers. The second generation, very similar actually was called Twister1 and had blue stickers. Both of these had 3 carbs similar to the production inline 6's. The Twister2 and T2X were both six carb motors with one piece lift off cowls.

[Bruster]

The cowl is wrong for a Twister. The Twisters had a big exhaust log on the left side of the motor. The stickers ARE NOT Twister either, with the exception of the rear one, which is obviously from a Twister sticker set. Again, pictures of the powerhead would answer a lot of questions. Here's some things to look for:

The already mentioned external exhaust log on the left side of the motor required a large square hole in the mid for the log to connect to below the cowl. IF..... the hole is there, then the mid section is from a Twister. I've seen people run these mids with other powerheads and the log removed with a plate bolted over it. If there is no hole in the left side, in other words if the mid looks the same on the left as it does on the right, then it's a SUPER BP mid section which was from the late 60's. (69 only as far as privateer stuff goes). If that's the case, then the powerhead MUST BE 1971 or older or it won't bolt up to the mid without an adapter which makes a mess in the exhaust area under the powerhead. So, plated mid section with no log, 72 or newer powerhead, plain mid on left, 71 or older. YOU CAN COUNT ON THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT AN "EXPERIMENTAL MOTOR".

Looks like it could be someone's experiment! Still a nice whatever it is motor. We know that any collection of "race" motor parts are desirable especially when assembled in to a complete motor. :D :D I think RM would like to "shelf" that boat.:D :D :D

[Raceman]

Looks like it could be someone's experiment! Still a nice whatever it is motor. We know that any collection of "race" motor parts are desirable especially when assembled in to a complete motor. :D :D I think RM would like to "shelf" that boat.:D :D :D

My shelf ain't that big................ but I would love to have it sittin' beside the shelf.;)

[ssmith007]

My money's on RM ending up with it.....and T2X complaining about how unfair it is. :) :) :) Sorry guys I just couldn't resist.

[Raceman]

My money's on RM ending up with it.....and T2X complaining about how unfair it is. :) :) :) Sorry guys I just couldn't resist.

Actually I'm COMPLETELY out of space. I've gotta get a building up, or either get rid of some of the junk I've already got. :(

[Bruster]

My money's on RM ending up with it.....and T2X complaining about how unfair it is. :) :) :) Sorry guys I just couldn't resist.

Bad bet, see if you guys would read the posts carefully .... you would have noticed RM admitedly is out of shelf space. :rolleyes:

[MN4V]

[QUOTE=Swamp Master;1100882]Can anybody tell me if this set up is rare? The guy says that he has a really small stainless prop that belongs to the motor. He also tells me that it would do nearly 100mph. Is he full of it or what?

Yes, the boat is very rare. Not very many of the wood boats last this long. Most have been left out in the weather or crashed into a million splinters.Also it's rare because it's a Molinari. It's a good find!

I would guess with that motor it might run between 80 & 90 mph.
Mark

[MN4V]

Also, I wonder how many wood Molinari's were bought by the privateer racers direct from Italy. Or were all of them brought over by Mercury and OMC?
Mark

[Raceman]

The Sport J record was over 100MPH by the late 70's. That was a similar boat with a STOCK 1500XS. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that boat running 100 plus with a decent inline 6, be it a 1500, a Twister, or an engine assembled from a bunch of parts.;)

[MN4V]

Yes, but UJ boats ran only 80 to 90 mph on the race course.
Mark

[Swamp Master]

Here are some more pictures. There is only one spot on the top where the paint flaked and you can see some darkening of the wood. Otherwise I could find no wood problems. The prop is marked 8 3/4 16 P. The owner says he has reciepts for bunch of work, but that the starter will miss occasionally otherwise it runs like a scaulded dog. It hasn't been in the water for about 13 years except when they tested the motor. I have a lead on another owner who may have some more info on the boat. There is some rumor of it coming from the Mercury testing grounds via some guy who new a driver down there. The motor cover has the Kiekhofer name on it up by the logo with the prop on it. It also says Thunderbolt ignition on the front cover. Otherwise if the pictures don't tell you, I can't be of much more help until I talk to the previous owner.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512996/fullsize/dsc00841.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/512997/fullsize/dsc00842.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513005/fullsize/dsc00843.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513006/fullsize/dsc00844.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513008/fullsize/dsc00845.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513009/fullsize/dsc00850.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513011/fullsize/dsc00854.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513013/fullsize/dsc00853.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513015/fullsize/dsc00849.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/513017/fullsize/dsc00846.jpg

[Bruster]

Early Super B.P. with '75 1500 Short wrap and SSM W/adapter is my guess. Fits more with the age of the boat too

[Raceman]

Early Super B.P. with '75 1500 Short wrap and SSM W/adapter is my guess. Fits more with the age of the boat too

I agree. I can't tell for sure about the powerhead/starter arangement, whether it's a Super BP or another type powerhead. A picture of the other side of the powerhead would tell us for sure. (including the area around the starter)

What it IS FOR SURE: Late 60's mid section. (I think 1969 ONLY) but don't know for sure exactly the whole model run of the Super BP. Only a 71 or older powerhead will bolt up to that mid. (or '72 1150 ONLY, 72 1400 WILL NOT). If it is in fact a super BP powerhead too, it's a fairly collectible engine, especially if you could find correct stickers.

What it IS NOT FOR SURE: Nothing about it is Twister. It's also not 72 or newer, so that eliminates 1400's & 1500's.

Still a really neat find and worth buying if the price is anywhere near reasonable.

Here's a link to some pics of my 1250 Super BP. You'll notice that mine still has the Super BP gearcase, but they were frequently upgraded to the Super Speedmaster case like the one in your pictures.

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47325&highlight=Super+BP

[Swamp Master]

OOOO...K??? Is that like a flux capacitor? Seriously.Can you tell me what that means? I'm serious, I don't have any clue when it comes to racing boats and motors.
Thanks
Craig

[Raceman]

Seriously.Can you tell me what that means?

Which part is confusing?

Bottom line is, it's an interesting piece for a collector, and obviously has value, perhaps substantial, BUT................. you may not like it much for a lake toy. An almost 40 year old wooden boat that's made from thin materials for light weight in the first place has very little functional value. Same is true for an almost 40 year old race motor. If you want to collect or re-sell, I'd say buy it if the price is right. If you've got ideas of ridin' in it a lot there're probably a lot better options.

[Swamp Master]

You know, I was going to take that starter side picture and for some reason I figured that it was the other side that was more important. Where did the twister stickers come from? Could they be bought separate and then some other owner put them on? Raceman, what is a reasonable price for this set up? I'm thinking that it will be out of my price range especially since it would probably just sit in the shed and look cool.
Thanks
Craig

[Swamp Master]

it's not so much that it's confusing it's that I just don't have a clue. The super BP had me, but after reading your next post which came in while I was replying I see that it must refer to the lower unit. What does the BP stand for? Raceman, I checked out your link. The starter area looks a lot like the one in your picture of the Super BP. Also the owner told me that when he had it worked on they found out that it was something like a 125 instead of a 150. Does that make any sense?

[Raceman]

The Twister stickers came from a Twister sticker set. Only the rear sticker on the wrap is Twister. The side stripes are from another set. The way Merc stickers are made, the rear and one side is one piece and the other side by itself is the other. That means there's only one seam at the rear. If you look closely at the ones on that wrap you'll find that there are seams on both sides of the rear block where they've been cut.

With E Bay it's hard to guess what anything will bring these days. A complete Super BP could bring 2 or 3 thousand if the right two people get to bidding. Some of the minor changes to the engine will obviously hurt the value some to a purist collector. As far as the boat, I don't have a clue. It seems like a lot of old wooden raceboats are undervalued still in comparison with other collectibles.

[Raceman]

In the later V6 BP's, the BP stood for Bridgeport, which was the configuration of the exhaust port in those particular engines.

In the older inlines, the BP was the race version of the production engine, and made for 2 or 3 years in the late 60's. The BP package included the gearcase, the mid section, and some upgrades to the powerhead. Merc offered shortshaft 1250's also, but they didn't share any of the BP's differences.

[Swamp Master]

Raceman, you are way to fast for me on the keys. I trieds to edit the last post to say that the owner told me when he had it worked on the guy said it was a 125 or something instead of a 150 so that seems to make sense. I will make another trip out to get the starter picture and to check on the sticker seems.
Thanks
Craig

[pyro]

What does the BP stand for?

Still goes unanswered... Raceman?

[Bruster]

Still goes unanswered... Raceman?

BP = Blue Print :p

[T2x]

BP = Blue Print :p

Correct...

Looks like you've got a 60's center section and maybe lower unit...a mid 70's prop( late 60's were 2 blades).... a mid 70's set of cowlings and/or decals, and God knows what powerhead.... THe boat looks like a Banana bottom which would make it an early hull.... 67-69...but I haven't seen a full picture of the entire rig, so it's tough to judge.

Whatever, it has been worked over during the years......

Let us know if you buy it.

T2x

[Raceman]

Looks like you've got a 60's center section and maybe lower unit...T2x

Since it's up studs on the mid it'd have to be Super BP ONLY............. wasn't that '69 only? I never can remember if they released any of those motors in '68, but seems like the consensus around here in the past has been '69 only. The cowl could be from the '69 Super BP also, and ain't any tellin' how it ended up with a Twister1 back sticker and 74/75 1150/1500 stripes, but a lot of stuff gets changed around in 30 years.

[ssmith007]

Does that guy from down under still have that twister? Is a BP worth as much as a TII? Thanks. Smitty

[Raceman]

Does that guy from down under still have that twister?

Don't know


Is a BP worth as much as a TII? Thanks. Smitty

Nope, not even close. I'd think to the right collector a T2 would be worth double, maybe even triple............. that's how I'd value my stuff anyway.

[Swamp Master]

Here is the links to 5 more pics that I took
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/514512/fullsize/dsc00880.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/514515/fullsize/dsc00881.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/514519/fullsize/dsc00882.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/514521/fullsize/dsc00883.jpg
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/514524/fullsize/dsc00884.jpg
I hope these are what everybody is waiting for. I would sure like a definitive answer on what this is. I did check the Twister stickers and they were just as was stated here. They were spliced, and as I think I stated before he had a bunch of work done and the mechanic said that it is a 125 not the 150 as on the motor. So that pretty much says 1250 BP, but can anybody add any more.
Thanks
Craig

[Mark75H]

I think what you have is ... parts

It sort of does resemble a 1969 1250 Super BP, except I thought the small cap distributor started in 1970.

If you could find a serial number that would help even more

[Raceman]

I did check the Twister stickers and they were just as was stated here. They were spliced,

Of course they were............ I wouldn't BS you about somethin' like that.;) :D

The block appears to be 1250 Super BP and would be the only correct option for that mid section. The lower pan and fuel pump are from a 74 or newer inline 5, probably the one that donated the 1500 stickers. As Bruster already pointed out, it's got an early 70's SuperSpeedmaster and adapter. The only gearcase option on the '69 Super BP was the one like in the pictures of my engine on the link I posted above. The electric primer/enrichener above the fuel pump is incorrect for that engine also.

It's a neat boat and engine. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it. As I said before, I think it'd be worth more if some of the hard stuff like a Super BP sticker set and correct & working BP gearcase were with it.

[Raceman]

I think what you have is ... parts

It sort of does resemble a 1969 1250 Super BP, except I thought the small cap distributor started in 1970.



Sam, I guess you and I were typing at the same time. I'm not sure about the cap, but don't forget that the '69 1250 Super BP was essentially a prototype of a '70 1350 powerhead (first direct charge engines released) with a 1250 front half, so it may very well be that they came with the '70 style cap also. If I can remember to look tomorrow when I get to the office I'll pull the cowl off mine.

The engine does have a black timing arm, which would've been from a '73 or newer engine, so maybe that's where the distributor came from also. There are some mixed parts for sure.

Here's what the stock SuperBP fuel pump and right side of powerhead look like:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45276&d=1069366060

[largecar91]

Swamp Master, Did You Buy This Boat? Fill Us In. I Would Love To See It. It Is A Very Neat And Rare Find.

[Swamp Master]

largecar, I won't be buying the boat. It's too much money and it doesn't fit my boating habits(too fast) F1RACER71 and another guy are going to come see it. The owner is kind of shy now about selling.Since it could be worth alot of money he doesn't want to sell it too cheap. I guess I should have expected that when I relayed the info from all of you nice people. I have been drafted now to help him sell it since he doesn't do the computer thing. Keep an eye on Ebay I'm thinking he going to want me to list it there.
Swamp

[Mark75H]

He might be surprized how low it will go on eBay, esp as a complete rig and the motor out of as sold by factory identity. Don't expect much.

Used race boats are usually dogs on eBay

If sold separately, the motor would probably go for more than the motor and boat together.

[Zonkercraft]

Just to add more fuel to the fire. The boat is an early '67 '68 18ft, Molinari. Angelo Molinari gave up on the metal tags, shortly after signing with Mercury. The shorter 16 & 17ft, flat nosed boats, were labeled on the rear cowling.
Interesting point is the trim system. Saw the picture of the pump, but what is it, and what is it bolted to? What ram is in the boat? It's a single ram?
The boat appears to be in incredible shape , for it's age. VERY nice boat, indeed.
While the motor is the debate point. The BOAT is really a neat find!
Very, VERY cool boat.
But,...that would just be my opinion.
Jeff
Zonkercraft

[MN4V]

Interesting point is the trim system. Saw the picture of the pump, but what is it, and what is it bolted to? What ram is in the boat? It's a single ram?
Jeff
Zonkercraft

Seems like I've seen this type before, but I just don't remember where right now.
Could it be aftermarket (Nydal or OMC) or something else. Sure looks familiar though.
Mark

[Bruster]

Sam, I guess you and I were typing at the same time. I'm not sure about the cap, but don't forget that the '69 1250 Super BP was essentially a prototype of a '70 1350 powerhead (first direct charge engines released) with a 1250 front half, so it may very well be that they came with the '70 style cap also. If I can remember to look tomorrow when I get to the office I'll pull the cowl off mine.

The engine does have a black timing arm, which would've been from a '73 or newer engine, so maybe that's where the distributor came from also. There are some mixed parts for sure.

Here's what the stock SuperBP fuel pump and right side of powerhead look like:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45276&d=1069366060


I say most of the parts are Super BP, making it very desirable, The minors like the throttle arm is no big deal. Decals, well decals to make it correct, now that's a problem that I know all to well. LOL :D There's more there than is being given credit for. Now that power trim thingie...... that's an unusual piece. :eek:

[ssmith007]

What would it take to run the boat? Seems it's more of a display or conversation piece now. I don't think you could expect this thing to run fast and hold up now, could you? The thing is cool, but I wouldn't pay much for it. It will be interesting to see how the bidding goes. Sure looks cool though. I can tell how much some of you miss that time period in outboard evolution and realize how cool and facinating it was. God Bless our Troops. Smitty:o

[ssmith007]

What is the approx HP of the BP. The T2 was about 185-200hp? Is that correct? Is A T2 worth $4K-5K ? Is the BP worth $1K-1.5K ? Is that in the ball park? Is a 1500XS worth about $3K-$4K? Thanks. Smitty

[largecar91]

I Have Always Heard The Super Bp Was Around 140 And The Stackers Were 155 Hp. I Would Say You Are Close On The T2 Rating. As Far A Price, That's A Loaded Question. The Bp's Are Worth Far More Than 1000-1500 ( We Have Seen Bp Mid Sections Bringing 800-1300 On Ebay)and Are A Lot More Rare Than A 1500xs. Condition Plays A Big Part In Their Worth. I Do Think The T2 And T2x's Are Worth The Most Of The Motors In Question. I Have All These Motors And I Would Not Sell Any Of Them.

[Mark75H]

Merc ads claimed the Super BP without stacks was 140 hp, so Bruster is pretty much right.

[ssmith007]

Anyone know what happened to this? Thanks. Smitty

[Swamp Master]

Sorry I haven't kept everyone informed about this boat. The owner can't seem to come up with a price. He doesn't need the money and the boat is in a separate storage building so it's not in his way thus no big hurry. I'm thinking he is going to want $10,000 or more now that he knows it's pretty rare. The problem I see is rare makes it worth more, but it's the demand that really determines the price. As soon as I have anything pertinent I will let everyone here know. I really appreciate all of the help from everyone here. It was very fun for me finding all of this stuff out. I think I spent about 8 hours reading all of the racing history and stuff.
Thanks,
Swamp

[ssmith007]

I guess some of these things are WAY more valuable than I ever thought. Keep us posted. Thanks. Smitty

[Raceman]

Sorry I haven't kept everyone informed about this boat. The owner can't seem to come up with a price. He doesn't need the money and the boat is in a separate storage building so it's not in his way thus no big hurry. I'm thinking he is going to want $10,000 or more now that he knows it's pretty rare. The problem I see is rare makes it worth more, but it's the demand that really determines the price. As soon as I have anything pertinent I will let everyone here know. I really appreciate all of the help from everyone here. It was very fun for me finding all of this stuff out. I think I spent about 8 hours reading all of the racing history and stuff.
Thanks,
Swamp

There's a BIG difference between "old" and "rare". It may very well be true that the boat itself is rare, but the engine itself would seem to ad very little value to it from a collectibility standpoint, since it's a hodgepodge of parts that obviously weren't mated to each other when new, or even close to the same year model. Unfortunately (for me at least since I'm so heavy with it) the inline 6 race stuff hasn't gained anywhere near the popularity with collectors that the smaller motors have, and when they start getting put together from multiple year stuff the value falls off a cliff. If it was sittin' in my driveway, a couple thou. AT MOST would knock the boat in the head, and MAYBE a thousand or 15 hundred more would be all in for the motor depending on closer examination.

Just an opinion, since nobody asked me for it.:p

[ssmith007]

RM, I guess I feel the same way in regard to the value. The motor not being all from the same year and sort of a hodgepodge. Still really cool but not the value of an all original BP. The boat is cool also but I just don't see 10 grand. But if he can get some one to give it to him, more power to him. Maybe a business or a museum would. Thanks. Smitty

[Swamp Master]

Please send me an email to fatdog000@centurytel.net and I'll send them

[Mark75H]

Title: Vintage Molinari Tunnel Hull Race Boat

Unfortunately, eBay has removed this auction-style listing. All bids or offers on this listing have been canceled. Because the listing was ended, you no longer have any obligation to purchase this item. If the seller chooses to relist the item, you're welcome to bid on it again.

Listings are removed for different reasons. For example:
- The way the item was listed may violate eBay policy.
- The removal may be part of a separate action taken by eBay that is unrelated to the listing itself.

Care to explain?

[Swamp Master]

I apologize for the problems with the Molinari Tunnel Hull Auction. When I did the search to find the right catagory I didn't realize that it was going to be in the under 10hp section. That was why they pulled it because of the discrepency in the motor.
Thanks
Craig

[Mark75H]

Well, that certainly didn't take long :)

[Mini Max]

Trying to figure out what exactly I had purchased, I searched the forum and came across this post. This Molinari had sold last year for more than I paid, but was not collected. I feel fortunate to have located a piece like this at all. My late 60's school boy days were spent doodling Molinari tunnel boats when I should have been paying attention in class.

Man I thought Eastern Carolina was un populated until I went to N. Wisconsin. My phones mapping function routed me down trails that I swear had seen nothing but snowmobiles in years. What Wisconsin lacks in population it makes up for in vintage iron.

The chain of ownership has remained unbroken as it went from Factory boat to two guys before the seller. He was to have gotten me their contact info by now, but is a busy guy and we have not been able to connect since I came back. Certainly this boat is not a snapshot in time, with parts from different years, but its a race boat.

The seller had the factory Paint and logos stripped and a auto body friend applied the red paint. Previously the deck was Black. Hopefully there is a race history to go with it and I will restore it back to that point.