Jay's Smith's Custom Wrist Pins

[Prof. O/B]

The question has been raised wheither Jay Smith's wrist pins that are closed on one end really work. Robert Boyles in the mid-1600s gave us the "Boyles Law". In that law he stated:

The rapid motion and the collisions of molecules within the walls of a container, causes pressure (force on unit matter). Pressure is proportional to the number of molecular collusions and the force of the collisions in a particular area. The more the collisions of gas molecules within the wall, the higher the pressure.

What he is saying in regards to our application is....as the the pressure increases in the crankcase of a 2-stroke engine, the pressure is trying to "force" the gas molecules together (in collision) up, into the opening of the wrist pin and it creates pressure inside the pin. The greater the pressure being exerted on the open end of the pin, the greater the pressure and resistance inside of the pin. That sure sounds like "stuffing" to me. But that's just my humble opinion.:)

[MN4V]

I guess I would need pictures to help me understand it all.
What about volume? Does this have anything to do with the stuffed pins?
Mark

[jerry]

is it good or bad ? lol

[Prof. O/B]

I guess I would need pictures to help me understand it all.
What about volume? Does this have anything to do with the stuffed pins?
Mark

It does decrease crankcase volume, which is a good thing, when the engine falls below atmospheric pressure on the suction stroke, it "sucks" harder because the displacement volume, that is the volume from B.D.C. to T.D.C has not changed, but the crankcase volume is smaller. It if sucks harder, it will bring in a greater fuel charge at a higher speed. When it compresses the charge, it is doing so on a smaller crankcase volume, so it will deliver a larger charge at a higher port speed. Win! Win!

[Ted Stryker]

Prof. Outboard, is this comparable to the slight boosting (or less of a vacuum) effect that a longer, narrower intake runner has on a 4-stroke engine because of the momentum of a higher intake speed per cfm..?

[Chummy]

how noticeable is this? Say on a stock 280 would you feel the difference?

[ChrisXS2003]

I haven't seen the pins refered to, but the question is whether the volume inside the pin is exposed to the crankcase or not. If it's not exposed, then....

Do both ends of the pin get sealed? Is the sealed end(s) exposed to the crankcase. I think that's what's at issue....

Not trying to be argumentative.

Chris

[Prof. O/B]

I haven't seen the pins refered to, but the question is whether the volume inside the pin is exposed to the crankcase or not. If it's not exposed, then....

Do both ends of the pin get sealed? Is the sealed end(s) exposed to the crankcase. I think that's what's at issue....

Not trying to be argumentative.

Chris

Since a normal wrist pin is "hollow" and it is inside the crankcase, the area in the pin "adds" to the crankcase volume. By closing one end, and mounting it in the engine where the closed end is "up" relative to earth, the area is no longer exposed to the crankcase volume. It works under the same principle as inverting a drinking glass and shoving it down in a bowl of water, you will note that the water cannot enter the glass. Admitted if you keep shoving the glass further and further down into the water (like at the lake) a greater amount of water can enter the glass because you are compacting the air by placing a greater pressure on the air held inside the glass. Just as your ears don't feel pressure when your head in barely under the water, the deeper you dive the greater is the pressure. Do the glass trick and you will understand. :)

[Prof. O/B]

how noticeable is this? Say on a stock 280 would you feel the difference?

I can not tell you what actual difference you will experience. What I can tell you is it will deliver the normal charge + the charge volume that is existing in the pin. So whatever that volume is, that will be the difference.:)

[Jay Smith]

The Volumn of the Wizard Piston short wrist length pins disapates or "STUFF" a total of 10 CC's.. The longer Weisco will disapate more CC's.

Just curious Prof. with the heat treating ( 62 + Rockwell ), the beginning high tensle strength 8000- 9000 series base stock metal and the double cryo treatment wouldn't welding damage the molecular structure of the wrist pin ? I'm not by no means a metal urgest BUT I would have a REAL concern with a cap of a lower preped base attaching to that SUPER hard pin and it ability to "tie" in and not undo all the hardness and strength treatment Chuck has designed into these SUPER STRONG wrist pins ??? When Chuck first started this project I do know he spent months quizing and doing reasearching the mega piston companys about thier comparable Funny Car and Top Fuel strength pins made in Carbon Steel for the needle bearing application and with thier help and suggestions he came up with a super strong piece.. As I said I have sold MANY sets with zero failures...

just curious,

[Brendan Power]

Pascal's Law states that if pressure is applied to a non-flowing fluid in a container, then that pressure is transmitted equally in all directions within the container.
So IMO a wrist pin with only 1 closed end would not yield and increase in crankcase compression or flow.
Brendan Power:D :D :D :D

[Ted Stryker]

Inline, I've read that the Engineers did at one time...

[The Big Al]

Piston pins that come from piston company's are not used by the TOP NHRA & IHRA Top Fuel racers.

They are made by a special tool company!

This is what Top Fuel are using, same material used on the landing gear on fighter jets.
There are very few raw materials with the incredible strength required by wrist pins in a blown-fuel, drag race motor. blown-fuel Pins are made of VascoMax C-300, an exotic, very expensive, nickel-cobalt-titanium steel “superalloy” with very high ultimate tensile strength (294,000 psi) and an extreme fatigue endurance limit (one billion cycles at 125,000 psi).

I have posted this many times. And can be confirmed by Doug Herbert Racing. They are not only used by the Snap On Drag team but Doug Herbert Supplies them to all the other teams.



Not that the pins Jay sells or not compatible or even better to use in a Mercury outboard engine, they are NOT what is used in Top Fuel racers.

AL

[Da Bull]

Just curious Prof. with the heat treating ( 62 + Rockwell ), the beginning high tensle strength 8000- 9000 series base stock metal and the double cryo treatment wouldn't welding damage the molecular structure of the wrist pin ?

just curious,[/quote]


Not if the welding is done prior to heat treating.

DB

[Jay Smith]

Al,
You need to start carefully READING before typing, I thought what I TRIED to say but might have failed in your mind the companys that Chuck quized were asked as to thier choice of the top contender of carbon steel material that was strong as possible even enough to support the extreme load of say a fuel motor and still be carbon and to be OK with needle bearing.At least thats what I meant to say..I NEVER said these pins were what top fuel motors ran now did I ? Just that this was suggested to be the strongest material compatable to needle bearing that was not an exotic alloy that would cost $200.00 + ea.. And your opininated statment made that these pins are no better than the stock pin, where and how do you base your statment Al?? Just curious why do you ALWAYS seem to take EVERYTHING out of context to create an issue to type about ??? Or are you that bored ? Lighten up Al eat an Easter Egg...:D

As I said to all that come forth with questions and or opinions if you don't believe in the pins please DON'T buy em, pretty elementary I'd think...I will admit I'm not smart enough to try to "interpret" Pascal's law to try to prove" MY " point as fact.. BTW Pascal's law has absolutely NOTHING to do with gases and or vapor...I think your mixed up, the law your "trying" to apply is Boyles law..The theroy seems pretty straight foward to me but I'm just a common shift worker in a coal oil mill... :D

Happy Easter at all , even you Al LOL.........

[Rusrog]

Al,
You need to start carefully READING before typing..

LOL! I'll sit and wait on the Easter bunny to come by on Sunday before I'll wait on Al to do that... LOL!

It just ain't gonna happen.

Russ

[Raceman]

That is my entire point...Mercury DID use capped wrist pins at one time in some early V6 stuff and NO LONGER use them....obviously if they did anything useful, they would still be in the engines.

Either that or some college boy in accounting decided that it cost an extra few cents that could be saved by NOT using them.;) MBA's in the front office trump engineers everytime throughout corporate America nowdays.

[Jay Smith]

AMEN Raceman,

Thats the reason that there is a mass exidious at EXXON and everybody seems to be retiring at the earliest age of 55 possible, just tired of the "college boy" bean counters .... With ZERO people skills...I told my second line supervisior last week in a team meeting ( about 30 years old and a dead head delux ) that EXXON was on thier knees chasing a nickle that rolled under thier desk and $5.00 blew buy thier ass and they didn't have a clue the wind was even blowing.....

I weap for the future !

[stylishskier]

AMEN Raceman,

Thats the reason that there is a mass exidious at EXXON and everybody seems to be retiring at the earliest age of 55 possible, just tired of the "college boy" bean counters .... With ZERO people skills...I told my second line supervisior last week in a team meeting ( about 30 years old and a dead head delux ) that EXXON was on thier knees chasing a nickle that rolled under thier desk and $5.00 blew buy thier ass and they didn't have a clue the wind was even blowing.....

I weap for the future !

man... off topic but you guys gotta have faith in the younger generations, you make it sound like the education I'm receiving is going to somehow cause the world to end, don't forget, we are your children that will someday be running this country;)

[THE HOGG]

man... off topic but you guys gotta have faith in the younger generations, you make it sound like the education I'm receiving is going to somehow cause the world to end, don't forget, we are your children that will someday be running this country;)

BAM!!!!!!!!!

[Jay Smith]

Sorry if I sound pesimistic its not my intent,
All I'm saying is that the norm for the hiring and recruiting from college at EXXON is the top 1 - 2 % and through my 30 + years experiances with the largest oil corp on the planet intermingiling with these "kids" is that book smarts without a willingness to listen to the older employee that has the field experiance and have ran things while the younsters were in dipers and even before is a mixture for disaster...Most, not all , seem to think because the lack of a "sheep skin" the seasoned person is stupid, highy the contrary.The class room that trys to teache how to RUN a refinery and or business can't be drawn on a black board in a college classroom as there are many sides of the equation that the books haven't ran across... Most of the seasoned vets that when met with this "greater than thou" "college boy" attitude will gladly sit back and watch junior "boss" miserbily fail...Although once in a while you find one that is truely willing to listen and learn and confesses he's or she's not the smartest person in the valley they normally are met with a great willingness from others to help and most of that type goes far, I'm just saying just saying they seemed to becoming fewer and farther between and as I get older I have witnessed it more and more , since the company is not choosing to advance from the ranks above a 1st line supervisior...

Again a small amount of common sence goes MILES with an education to make a well rounded person geared for success. IMO If I had a choice betwen common sence , a willingness to learn from the in place people person or a college degree guy I'd choose the common sence guy hands down..And when your blessed with both you can't help but be successfull..

Good luck in life.....

[Raceman]

man... off topic but you guys gotta have faith in the younger generations, you make it sound like the education I'm receiving is going to somehow cause the world to end, don't forget, we are your children that will someday be running this country;)

Wow, that would make it REAL easy to turn this into a political thread.:eek: I do think to some degree that today's education is causing decay, (at least in the business schools) in our country if not the world. With some exceptions, todays college professors (hey, we can't make it in the business world with REAL jobs, so we'll go and teach it) seem like a bunch of clueless liberals that don't have a clue on where we came from, where we are, OR where we SHOULD BE headed, and don't get me started on what I REALLY THINK of the hotshot MBA's climbing the corporate ladder throughout the country. It's this current crop of hotshots that have made monumental decisions like turning their customer service departments over to contract telephone operators in India that have such heavy accents that it's hard to understand them, and they make about 2 bucks an hour, not to mention farming out jobs. There useta' be some level of corporate integrity and pride. Now like Jay said, it's just a game of milking every last penny.

Pessimistic??????????? I was pessimistic 10 years ago, now it's turned into a sense of total frustration.:( :mad: :(

Back on topic to outboards and trivial cost cutting, I could talk about plastic oil pump gears that save a few bucks over something decent, yet cause 3000 bucks (retail) in powerhead damage when they fail (not IF but WHEN) and plastic cages on bottom end rod bearings. I'm pretty sure an engineer didn't make that decision because of them being superior.

[1BadAction]

AMEN Raceman,

Thats the reason that there is a mass exidious at EXXON and everybody seems to be retiring at the earliest age of 55 possible, just tired of the "college boy" bean counters .... With ZERO people skills...I told my second line supervisior last week in a team meeting ( about 30 years old and a dead head delux ) that EXXON was on thier knees chasing a nickle that rolled under thier desk and $5.00 blew buy thier ass and they didn't have a clue the wind was even blowing.....

I weap for the future !

for people that supposedly don't know what they are doing they sure are making insanely high profits. :rolleyes:

[Raceman]

for people that supposedly don't know what they are doing they sure are making insanely high profits. :rolleyes:

It's actually an easy thing to do when you can monopolize an essential by getting together with a few of your buddies and manipulating supply, thus totally controlling the market, and fixing prices while the people in gov't that are supposed to block monopolies and enforce anti trust regulations turn and look the other way. As I've said before, I don't think private corporations have any more right to control and manipulate one natural resource than the other. Oil pools underground, water pools on the surface. Maybe big oil will get water next, then go after the air we breathe. Apparently all it takes is greasing the right palms in Washington to control it all.

[Jay Smith]

Yep,
And the question is asked DAILY here what COULD they make if this place was run by someone with common sence ???????? It is littered with wastefull spending like the goverment and the old saying a couple of post ago about the nickle under the desk and the $5.00 bill fits like a glove....

later

[Ron V]

I think Norris frustrated is Norris fulfilled. Glad I was able to help by busting my ass earning a MBA and then buying a Toyota.

By the way, good post Prof O/B, whatever a person wants to believe or not believe...very classy as always.

[Ron V]

Yep,
And the question is asked DAILY here what COULD they make if this place was run by someone with common sence ???????? It is littered with wastefull spending like the goverment and the old saying a couple of post ago about the nickle under the desk and the $5.00 bill fits like a glove....

later


I hear exactly what you're saying Jay...been there and done that. Things that are right in front of their nose costing thousands or even millions, but they argue over whether it's OK to waste money by running a continuous strand of packaging tape over the entire box lid instead of just putting a couple of small tabs of tape on it. Numbnuts. I think the biggest problem is just the simple fact that the bean counters have gotten such a stranglehold on everything that many companies won't make any subjective strategic or customer-relation type decisions anymore. If it can't be seen on a piece of paper as a number, they won't stick their neck out or make a decision. They won't just draw on common sense, practical evidence, and experience and "just do it". It is true that businesses exist to make a profit, but that is a careful balancing act with making both subjective AND objective decisions. Then you have the whole moral and ethic breakdown in this country which has been THE problem at numerous large corporations as well as small businesses too who just don't do what's right for the customer anymore....oh well, at the end of the day I leave it all behind, come home and crank up the Mercury and feel much better. That is what this post was originally pertaining to, wasn't it?

[The Big Al]

I NEVER said these pins were what top fuel motors ran now did I ?

You said they are made from the same material! AND THEY ARE NOT! NOT EVEN CLOSE!


These wristpins are made from the same material top fuel and funny car wristpins are made from.

[The Big Al]

Just curious why do you ALWAYS seem to take EVERYTHING out of context to create an issue to type about ???

I did not take anything out of context!

You made a statement that's not fact!

You created this issue with your advertising creativity of DRAMATICS!

You advertise with specific facts! And your facts are incorrect!

AND THIS IS AN ISSUE!

[jphii]

Al, you're such a dick!! But that's okay, it's probably why we get along.

[Jay Smith]

Sorry for the mistatement Al do I pay the fine to you ? Hopefully you don't count off for mis spelling if so I'm doomed....... Also can I count on you for a proof reading service the next post I write ?

Thanks for keeping me and others on this board honest and correct, you da man....:)

[Scott in MN]

Just looked at my block to try to visualize this closed end. As the piston moves down, the bottom pin opening slides between the exhaust and an intake port so the only opening there would be between the piston-wall clearance. The top side passes right over an intake port and would fill with the pressurized air/fuel mix unless the end is capped preventing the flow into the pin. I'm no 2 stroke expert but if this is how it works I can see the reasoning....jmo..Scott

[stylishskier]

I've got another question, what sort of reliability or performance issues has mercury experienced because their pins are no longer stuffed? Honestly, I don't know. In theory there seems to be a logical understanding, but we all know engineering can't rely on theory 100%. If these parts were decidedly not worth it by the merc engineers, then why would the accountants want to pay for them? Who is wrong, the engineers or the accountants, and does it really effect anything? Doing things the old way, just because "thats how it was done, they said it was correct" isn't always a way to go. Jay says he's had no failures, what percent of 2stroke outboard failures are cause of the wrist pins letting go, I know I've read it on the board, but it doesn't seem to be a prevalent issue...... oh yea and I'm far from the top 1-2% book-smarts morons I see walking around campus every day, and I'd like to think I have a solid amount of common sense and understanding of processes, don't knock us all! haha

[stylishskier]

gotta remember we aren't dealing with incompressible gases here as well... just depends on the pressures in the crank case, as I said, I am far from expert, maybe its worth it, maybe not

[Jay Smith]

I've got another question, what sort of reliability or performance issues has mercury experienced because their pins are no longer stuffed? Honestly, I don't know. In theory there seems to be a logical understanding, but we all know engineering can't rely on theory 100%. If these parts were decidedly not worth it by the merc engineers, then why would the accountants want to pay for them? Who is wrong, the engineers or the accountants, and does it really effect anything? Doing things the old way, just because "thats how it was done, they said it was correct" isn't always a way to go. Jay says he's had no failures, what percent of 2stroke outboard failures are cause of the wrist pins letting go, I know I've read it on the board, but it doesn't seem to be a prevalent issue...... oh yea and I'm far from the top 1-2% book-smarts morons I see walking around campus every day, and I'd like to think I have a solid amount of common sense and understanding of processes, don't knock us all! haha

Dear skier please read "Jay Smith's wrist pins round 2 for mabey a better understanding ....

Thanks,
Jay

[The Big Al]

Pascal's Law states that if pressure is applied to a non-flowing fluid in a container, then that pressure is transmitted equally in all directions within the container.
So IMO a wrist pin with only 1 closed end would not yield and increase in crankcase compression or flow.
Brendan Power:D :D :D :D

From the Fastest & Record setting engine builder!
And who did he build engines for?






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<FONT face=Verdana size=4><!-- (n) juggernaut:
a massive inexorable force that


seems to crush everything in its way -->Champions Again!!!

...and this one's for the record books:
1st Place for All Seven Races in 2006!
Back-to-back Championships for 2005-2006!















</TD><TD width="2%">






</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center width="61%" colSpan=3>http://www.rinker10.com/images/RiverRoar2006(2)600.jpg




click on this link below to take a ride!Boat Racing

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[CUDA]

OK Brendan does he really use Amsoil .:D

[Brendan Power]

Just for you Jay Smith!
Pascal's Law, in fluid (gas or liquid) mechanics, statement that in a fluid at rest in a closed container a pressure change in one part is transmitted without loss to every portion of the fluid and to the walls of the container. The principle was first enunciated by the French scientist Blaise Pascal

Cuda yes he does use the Amsoil Dominator and it is a great oil for a racing application, we also developed with Amsoil a custom blend of oil for the speedmaster lower units.
Brendan Power:D :D :D :D

[Scream And Fly]

Brendan, you built Terry Rinker's engines in 2006?

[Jay Smith]

OH BTW: The pins are considerable lighter than stock also....is this good or bad ....:D :D :D :D :D

Gotta love it and since this "debate" has happened I've had orders for 2 sets of pins...:p :p :p :p

Happy Easter Egg Day , wonder if Pascal's Law can be applied to a boiled Easter Egg ... Oh well I'll wait for the debate, film story @ 10:00 PM LOL.........

Always remember the REASON for the season..

[espen]

I think since the pin is open in just one end there is a slight delay of the air even out the pressures inside. It will act to dampen the peak pulses ,I dont see what result this would give ,i takes energy out of the system.
I think its a good point if the closed pin passes a intake port on its way down, the benefit has to be this.

[stylishskier]

OH BTW: The pins are considerable lighter than stock also....is this good or bad ....:D :D :D :D :D

Gotta love it and since this "debate" has happened I've had orders for 2 sets of pins...:p :p :p :p

Happy Easter Egg Day , wonder if Pascal's Law can be applied to a boiled Easter Egg ... Oh well I'll wait for the debate, film story @ 10:00 PM LOL.........

Always remember the REASON for the season..

don't get defensive Jay... a little healthy debate never hurt anyone, I for one am not trying to knock your business or engine building practices, I am just trying to figure out in my studies of fluid mechanics (yes, gases behave like fluids in many cases) and the effects of pressures etc how a stuffed wristpin may or may not help an engine. Obviously we know lighter, balanced components in an engine will yield more efficiency, power and less breakdowns, so right now +1 for your wrist pins;)

[Raceman]

I really doubt that the only reason the 2.5L Hi Perf engines don't run capped wrist pins is because they cost too much.

Really???? So why then did Merc go to plastic cages in the bottom end rod bearings? It sure as hell wasn't because there was NO advantage to continuing to use the obviously superior metal ones, and I don't EVEN want to get started again on the THOUSANDS of powerhead failures due SOLELY to a plastic oil pump gear.


also, I don't think rinker had capped wrist pins in his engines...and I don't think that the person that built his engines would be all that influenced by some "college boy bean counter" in his engine building decisions.


From the Fastest & Record setting engine builder!
And who did he build engines for?

Champions Again!!!


...and this one's for the record books:
1st Place for All Seven Races in 2006!


Back-to-back Championships for 2005-2006!



again.........Really???? So every engine builder in all of motorsports uses the exact same combination and reaches the same conclusions as to what LITTLE TRICKS work? I guess it's also safe to assume that with anybody else's engines Rinker would have just been an "also ran"?

One more comment: Not to take anything away from Brenden, but I don't think Rinker's impressive record makes ANYONE the "fastest" engine builder. There were other things involved like boats, propellers, setup, and let's not forget about driver. To give ALL THE CREDIT (or blame for NOT finishing first) to the engine builder is fairly absurd, given the nature of the sport. We could give the same blind praise to whoever did the props. Of couse a great blade wouldn't win races without a great engine, prop, boat & driver, & visa versa.

One other comment.............. Prof OB has a pretty strong background himself. Some of the people debating all this have never thought through this theory themselves before this thread, had to have it explained to them, and of course NEVER tried it firsthand. Seems like it'd make a lot more sense for somebody to go and do a back to back comparison under controlled conditions than to just say "it can't be right because somebody else who's successful doesn't use it".:rolleyes:

[The Big Al]

again.........Really???? So every engine builder in Nascar uses the exact same combination and reaches the same conclusions as to what LITTLE TRICKS work? Same for all forms of motorsports? I guess it's also safe to assume that with anybody else's engines Rinker would have just been an "also ran".


I would agree they do not.
But if I was needed advice who in NASCAR who you take an opinion from?

RYR or Mikel Waltrip?:rolleyes:

[stokernick]

or Rousch,Yates,Everham,Ganassi?Why say anything if you can't antagonize someone?

[1BadAction]

last time I checked, variables (other than HP) on a tunnel boat made a helluva lot more difference than variables on a car :o you can make 20 HP more than the next guy on a boat and if its not setup as good or better, than you are still going to loose.

[CUDA]

I believe Brendan builds motors for most of the F1 group.

[THE HOGG]

I Bet He Could Provide Real World Controlled Comparisons As Well, Although They Might Be Closely Guarded Secrets.