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markt111
03-15-2007, 02:54 PM
I have two choices in my boat to place a sub... the boat is a 30' center console with cuddy

A: mount a free air 10" in the gunnel next to the center console, limiting sub output being in freeair

B: put a 10" or maybe a 12" in the cabin in a box which is more powerful but not near the driver/passengers

which do you think would work better? I see some of these lowriders cars running around with subs in the trunk that kick but I am also not putting 2500 watts to it, going to install an efficient sub to preserve batery life at the sandbar!!!

STV_Keith
03-15-2007, 03:40 PM
What boat is it? I would not recommend a free-air sub in the gunwale. That would basically vibrate the boat apart (more than normal :) ). What do you have for the rest of your system (speakers/amps) and where are they in the boat?

markt111
03-16-2007, 08:43 AM
boat is a 302 Scarab like yours, running 4-6.5" off a kicker amp in the cokpit, 2-6.5" off the deck in the cabin, sounded pretty impressive last year even without a sub, but I'm looking for a little more depth now,

the Amp I have will be able to run everything excluding the cabin speakers, I like that seperate, I have a toggle switch to kill the amp if I'm staying over on the boat or don't want crank the tunes loud and run the batteries down for fishing etc...

STV_Keith
03-16-2007, 10:06 AM
Where are your cockpit speakers located? Mine are in the bottom of the front jump seats, facing aft, and two in the bottom of the console facing aft. My plan was to remove the live well/cooler thingy under the seat at the front of the console and turn it into a sub box. I can get 4 12" subs in there. You might be able to come up with a smaller box for one or two and keep a portion of that compartment.

With the space under the liner behind the area under the front jump seats, you could put a box there too.

markt111
03-16-2007, 12:55 PM
speaker locations are in the pic, I think i waill add the sub next to the driver in the gunnel under the other speaker, can't do anything on my console (no flat surface)

sho305
03-19-2007, 01:43 PM
Let us know how it works out. They say sub frequency travels through stuff pretty easy and so that is why it works in the trunk of a car. However it has been my experience that free airs work well in cars and you get more out of them than they say because they are in the same space as you with no obstructions and are closer to you...while your box is not (providing they are in the rear deck/etc). Plus they get the low end good especially because most new boxes are so small and can't get 30hz. I saw some new pyle marines on ebay for 100 for a pair. I have a 12 box in the car now that replaced a 10, I don't like it, going to try two 12s into the seat free air soon. I used to run 4 10" free air 2ohm on a quality 60-100W rms/ch amp and they worked well. Some of the best were $15 pyramids, w10 I think. They were moving. Nobody believes me still except those who rode in it or heard it a mile away. Some amps don't work good free air either, not sure why, they get all out of control. I used an old blaupunkt it worked the best. Some poly subs don't get it either but the marine subs are some of the few free air subs left.

1BadAction
03-19-2007, 03:49 PM
free air is a joke...

a decent 10" sub in a box sized on the small side for rock, mid sized for good all around use, and put it as far under the bow as you can get it facing up or forward. 400 real watts will be fine, the bow of the boat will act like a megaphone and make that single 10 sound like a pair of 12s.

STV_Keith
03-19-2007, 04:04 PM
So looking at your pic, you have your rear speakers here?

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/rear-look-arrows.jpg

That's where I'm going to put another pair myself.

My rear speakers are down here:

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/rear-speakers1.jpg

That's the bottom of the console...is your console different?

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/rear-speakers2.jpg

The ones up front are in the same place as yours.

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/front-speakers1.jpg

STV_Keith
03-19-2007, 04:05 PM
1BadAction...not much for a "bow" in these boats. :)

sho305
03-19-2007, 04:10 PM
LOL, I figured you would find that:D A box gives more SPL, that is for sure. But you need a bigger box for SQ and no box for free air. Don't need 400w because you don't have that box holding the speaker back...:D

I have a qlogic box that sucks with the longest port of 12", its 1.25cf for one 12". I am getting another sub to try in it with that fat 2" surround, maybe it will act like a 10 in there. Its loud alright, at one frequency and sounds like dog %$^&. Even plugged it sucks rocks. My software says I need 3+ cf to get 30hz. My 10" bandpass sounded better but put out less, and it didn't sound great either.

Qlogic box weighs a ton too, I can actually feel it back there driving the car.

If you don't care about quality the little boxes are great.

STV_Keith
03-19-2007, 04:25 PM
How much SQ are you looking for with the open space of a boat? SPL is the name of the game out here I believe. Not saying it should sound like crap, but doesn't have to sound like a car...which has an enclosed, somewhat noiseproof environment.

My plan is to build a box into the front cooler/seat, like this:

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/front-seat-subs.jpg

That area under there is about 4 cubic feet. Enough for 4 12" subs sealed.

sho305
03-19-2007, 11:06 PM
I'm sure you guys know, but they have those vents for small boxes that loosen them up a little.

That is a nice boat:cool:

markt111
03-20-2007, 06:23 AM
Yes Keith my speakers are on the side as you showed in post 8, my console is different, all rounded, no flat surfaces for mounting anything,

I am thinking of mounting the sub in the front now above the seats entering the cabin, building a small box behind it and carpeting to match the cabin!!! I bought a marine sub that can be run free air or in a box, I called the manufacturer and they agreed it would hit much better in a box, I could always add the box later because I think I will be pretty busy come spring

STV_Keith
03-20-2007, 10:03 AM
I would not even consider putting in a sub without a box...and for a sub, you need a decent box. 3/4 MDF (medium density fiberboard) and preferrably coat the outside with resin or 'glass to keep it from getting wet. Ask the manufacturer how much airspace you need.

Post a pic of your console. What year is your boat? Do you have the teak or fiberglass floor access hatches behind the console? Mine are teak and one just broke yesterday. :( In this pic, you can see one of them:

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/pics/images/DSCN5433.jpg

sho305
03-20-2007, 10:48 AM
If you could figure out mounting you could try a ported tube if you want to hassle with it, they don't weigh anything compared to a box. Pyle makes 10 and 12, cheap so don't know how good they are. I have a little 8" roadmaster and it really puts out for a single 8 and such a cheap thing. Could always tear the carpet off and glass the bare tube to waterproof if its paper like mine, and plug the port if need be. Also have seen people make them from concrete post foot forms, thats serious heavy paper. Just ideas. If I ever get to a better system in my boat it will be tubes, no place big enough for free airs and box is too heavy for a little boat...cause I'll have a minimum of two subs.

We always tried to put 6x9 in boats. They are not subs, but you just seem to get more out of a system with them, particularly 4 of them. They go louder and have stronger mid bass. One we had 6.5s in front and 4 6x9 under the back seat in a 24'. It sounded great but there was no good place for a sub and the guy never did put one in (I wanted to) as it sounded fairly good without and most certainly played loud and clear.

The free airs I put in boats I didn't get to listen to much. I put lots of them in cars and like the deep sound. You might not win a contest but they sound like a home theater and easily go loud enough to feel. It is better to have minimum 2x12" or 4x10" IMO free air for good thunder, in a car that will move the hair on your head around. Yeah I'm all SQ I guess. The only ported box I made that I personally liked was 2+cf per 10" sub, that shook the car nicely. Maybe why I like 10s better than 12s, but I'm trying 12s here soon. You may have to swap amps to find a good one, some don't do free air well, can't damp the subs good enough. When they start to freak out you can't turn it up anymore. An amp with a subsonic filter might help.

Not sure on the marines because they are made to run free air, but most other subs that admit they can do free air say halve the power ratings for free air.

sho305
03-20-2007, 11:02 AM
The subs I got off ebay from trading circuit (circuit city outlet) are poly infinity 1000w and 300w rms. I think the 1242w, the ones with the magnet inside the frame for shallow mount. Anyway, they say in the manual half rating for free air so 150w rms each. They were < $40ea shipped. Have a cast alum frame. This one might be screwed up but this model: http://cgi.ebay.com/Infinity-1000-Watt-DVC-12in-Subwoofer-1242W_W0QQitemZ140098798541QQcategoryZ48614QQcmdZViewItem

The ones I bought tested good in the listing and worked fine. Usually heavy paper cones are better for free air, I'm hoping these are HD enough they work.

markt111
03-20-2007, 12:14 PM
heres the only pic of the inside I have access to right now, I'm at work so it came from a previous post, you'll notice the rubrail on the console, the fiberglass ismolded and it comes out a bit theretoo, there are no flat areas, aces to wiring is at the drivers knees so no room there as well

you can also see the speaker locations and the amount of room underneath them to add more

markt111
03-20-2007, 12:16 PM
really don't think i would want to mount to the console anyway, I have a friend with a similar boat and his dash rattles like hell !!

STV_Keith
03-20-2007, 12:48 PM
When you can, post pics of the sides and back of the console. I'd like to see it above and beyond looking for speaker locations.

I see you have 8's on your rig too...couple of questions there if you don't mind. What does it run top end? What props do you run? Nosecones/low water pickups or not? How much setback (if any). How high are the propshafts in relation to the bottom? Anything done to the motors?

Still dialing mine in. :)

markt111
03-20-2007, 01:04 PM
heres a little prop/perf history

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94842

markt111
03-20-2007, 01:10 PM
where are you at? 4 blades? 3 blades? height?

I couldn't do anything last year with the ethanol switch up here, these test were previous summer,

had to be very careful with running lean with the fuel change, had to rejet a few times, .002 at a wack, went up .006" total and never bumped the timing up as the season ended on me as I was getting close to safe, better to be a little slower and not go boom was my theory so I had backed off the timing a few degree till I got the jetting close and didn't run her hard, once I bump the timing this spring I may need a little more fuel but I'm def in the safe area now!!!

STV_Keith
03-20-2007, 01:44 PM
I can't remember where my motors were in relation to the bottom, but I just raised them 1-7/8". With 24" of setback, the water was hitting the gearcases about 6" above the bullet. I do have low water pickups.

When I got the boat, it ran 67 (on GPS) with 20 pitch Mach 1's. It turned the motors ~7200 to do it though...higher than I want to buzz them, plus the cruise speed was pathetic. We're talking 32mph at 3400rpm. I have since gone to 24 pitch Bravo 1's. It runs 42mph @ ~3500rpm and 55-56mph @ 5000rpm. 69.8mph @ ~6200rpm top end.

Now that the drives are up a little higher, I'm hoping for more speed, since I'm not dragging the anchors (gearcases) so low in the water. I have a pair of 26 Bravo 1's to put on it if the R's go up on top end, which I am expecting. I have almost another 2" of vertical adjustment left in the plate I built for the motors, so I will be playing with transom height a bit more too.

markt111
03-20-2007, 02:13 PM
I would love to see some more pics of your setup, gearcases etc... what are you running for a pickup? nosecone or transom mount? Bravos labbed?

I'll send you a PM with my email adress

sho305
03-20-2007, 02:30 PM
7200rpm with V8s?:eek: Wow, sounds pretty high I didn't think they did that very well unless modded. Usually you loose power up there and go slower. Of course, when I bought my old Chris Craft it had a very small prop on it and the Ford 289 had a stock(?) low rpm marine cam in it. I asked the seller why and he said the old fisherman who had it did that so it would troll slower.:rolleyes:

I put a bigger one on and it went much faster and about 4600rpm I think. Even then I think the little 2bbl was weazing and the low flow intake is so low it comes back up to the ports. I have a holley 600 if I ever get to that project again. Ought to wake up the 'Interceptor' along with a better intake and maybe a more modern cam. It is rated at 140hp. It was rebuilt and would idle at 500rpm.

STV_Keith
03-20-2007, 02:50 PM
Sho, my motors are Evolution Marine Stage 5's. Supposedly 430hp each, but with the low compression they have, I doubt it. My highest cylinder of the 16 is 132psi, the low is 107. I want to cut the heads to get ~140 across the board, but that means 4 head gaskets and 104 studs at this point (no more bolts after the last go around).

Mark, here's some pics of the gearcases:

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/pics/images/DSCN5436.jpg

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/pics/images/DSCN5437.jpg

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/pics/images/DSCN5465.jpg

markt111
03-20-2007, 03:25 PM
also sho305 these are v8 outboards, 2 strokes not small block Chevys or Fords

sho305
03-20-2007, 04:42 PM
Oh yes I know, just could not believe someone put a tiny prop on a boat to troll slower. And didn't know his motors were built, not too many on here with them let alone big power ones.

Twin mod V8s, that is some serious hardware. Nice transom bracket too.

markt111
03-20-2007, 09:13 PM
heres acouple pics, one showing the jackplates, one part of the console, don't have any of just the console I'll try to some over the weekend

markt111
03-20-2007, 09:17 PM
heres two more, one is just descent shot of the whole boat, the other entrance to cabin where I think i will mount the sub

notice the hard T-Top, electronic box and radar which has to slow me down some, I need these in the ocean thou, I think it performs pretty good for bveing fully rigged, I will try for more thou because as my friends say i love to tinker

STV_Keith
03-20-2007, 11:49 PM
So you are thinking to mount the sub in the cabin? I'd recommend against it, just from the standpoint of do you leave your cabin open when you're partying on the boat...will you ever have anyone lay down in the cabin while the rest are partying, and unless if faces out of the cabin, you won't get a whole bunch of projection.

Knowing that there is quite a bit of room under the front jump seats, you might consider moving the speakers currently under there to the sides of the jump seats (facing each other) and put the subs where those speakers are now. You'd have to build a complete box (including a front that would reinforce the fiberglass as it's too thin to do anything), and I'd recommend glassing the front of it to the backside of the fiberglass of the seat bottom. Then you can glass/support it from the stringers on the inside of the liner. This would be the only way to build a stout enough box, and support it's weight when in the rough stuff I think.

From your pics, your motors look VERY low to me. Raising them up and getting some low water pickups on there if necessary will help with the speed...both top end and cruise. How much adjustment do you have? And what are those measurements...propshaft in relation to the bottom of the boat?

I will get a measurement tomorrow once the gearcases are back on my boat as to how far from the bottom the C/L of the propshaft is.

markt111
03-21-2007, 07:58 AM
sub locations shown in new pic, I could easily build a box behind after

STV_Keith
03-21-2007, 10:11 AM
Oh, I gotcha. The only thing is that the sub will probably require a box that is roughly 1 cubic foot, (12" x 12" x 12") and I know I don't have more than a few inches between that location and the inside bulkhead of the cabin.

Also, bass is not nearly as direction as highs/mids. Again, I'd suggest moving the subs to where your current speakers are, build the box underneath where there is plenty of room, and move your current speakers to where you are suggesting to put the sub. This will get your mid/high range speaker up higher, which will give more volume in the boat as well, and those speakers probably aren't as deep (mounting depth) as your sub will be either.

sho305
03-21-2007, 10:31 AM
That is what I was thinking, plug some 12s if they fit where the existing are under the seats. Then put the 6s up higher. If you can get 12s try them free air and see if they work for you, then do a box if not. Also if that is storage under the seat you can still put stuff in there if you do free air. 10s will not put out as much, but 4 would work well if you want to cut more holes:)

markt111
03-21-2007, 10:53 AM
trying to keep holes/cutting to a minimum, if I mount it there the back of the sub would actually be in the cabin, the only thing in the area is a light which I could move to the back of the box if I build one, if I wanted I could later add one more on the other side later (that would require another or larger amp thou) trying to add some thump but keep it simple

STV_Keith
03-21-2007, 03:21 PM
Remember Mark, that if the speaker is in the cabin, the box you will add will stick even further into the cabin. You are talking 13.5" from the mounting surface of the speaker to the back of the box (12" inside, and 3/4" front and back). That will be much easier hidden down low in the boat, and the bass isn't directional like the highs are. Move the highs up. It will sound better.

82RAYSONCRAFT
03-22-2007, 09:36 PM
I know I don't have the same setup/configuration as you Guy's are describing but I just put a 10" enclosed sub driven by a 200w into 2ohm and a pair of 6x9's straight from the deck.
I mounted the amp and battery charger/tender on the front well of the bow. It is about 4 feet in under the bow from dash.
I used aluminum angle to secure the sub box in place as well.
Battery is strapped to the floor.
6x9's are not mounted as I set them up as needed when beached and partying with others.
More than enough for my 20'er.


http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/8022333445.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5046610)
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/8022333667.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5046611)
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/8022333672.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5046612)

bigbore
03-23-2007, 04:14 AM
I know I don't have the same setup/configuration as you Guy's are describing but I just put a 10" enclosed sub driven by a 200w into 2ohm and a pair of 6x9's straight from the deck.
I mounted the amp and battery charger/tender on the front well of the bow. It is about 4 feet in under the bow from dash.
I used aluminum angle to secure the sub box in place as well.
Battery is strapped to the floor.
6x9's are not mounted as I set them up as needed when beached and partying with others.
More than enough for my 20'er.


http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/8022333445.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5046610)
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/8022333667.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5046611)
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/3/8022333672.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5046612)

thats what i'm talking about.

STV_Keith
03-23-2007, 10:08 PM
OK Mark, I just measured...my engines are setup so that the center of the propshaft is about 3/4" below the bottom. This is now, today. They were previously 1-7/8" lower.

I did my preliminary water test today. Same props (24 Bravo 1's) as before, but now with PVS ventilation holes to help coming out of the hole, and the boat went almost 2mph faster than it had gone before. Now, today was just a shake down...no real time to play with trim, really run it out, etc. I'm guessing there might be a little more left in it. I will try it more next weekend, and will also try the 26's.

Now, to the theory part. Theoretically, the water will rise 1" behind the transon for every 5" of setback. From the transom to the nose of my bullets is 27". This means that the tip of my bullets are 6-1/8" below the water level. The rear of the torpedo, where the prop starts, is 48" back from the transom, meaning the propshaft is then under the waterline by 10-3/8". Since I'm running Bravo 1's with 15-1/4" diameter, this means my props are still over 2-1/2" below the water level. My transom plate gives me another 2 inches or so of lift available. Once I get some more testing done next weekend, I will probably raise the engines again to see what the effect is.

markt111
03-24-2007, 07:41 AM
wow, so your in the 72 MPH range now, nice!!! how does she come out of the hole now? how was it before the props were drilled? are you turning props in or out? have heard on our hulls more speed in!!!

STV_Keith
03-24-2007, 01:00 PM
Came out of the hole much quicker than without the PVS holes. Before, it would come up to about 2900rpm and sit there for about 4-5 seconds before they spun up and then went. Now, it only takes about 1-2 seconds, so quite an improvement.

My props turn out.

sho305
03-24-2007, 11:55 PM
My old checkmate tookoff way better with a ventilated laserII prop. It seemed to have so much drag with the vee before it got up, the prop let the rpms up some and it pulled up a lot better. Soon as you got maybe 5-10mph above plane speed it locked back in. Just before you come off plane it would slip again. It was just like a car locking up the converter in high gear when you are stepping on it some. Didn't raise the rpm that much either, but it sure made a difference.

1BadAction just FYI, I'm working on your box theory. I pulled the infinity 12 out (needs 1.5cuft box) and put this other hefty 1000w digital audio one in with a fat 2" surround. I went to wallyworld and got a whole pillow+ size bag of poly (only 1.97!) and near filled the box except the end of the port (qlogic 1.25sqft 12"x3.8 port, about 39hz). It sounds much better than it did, of course I more or less have a 10" cone in a 12 sub too. I am changing out the mid/highs so I'll try it more tomorrow. Also have it x-ed over at 50 or 70hz. I tried stuffing some in the port but it blew it out. Only have a sansui/ppi 75x2rms on it yet. It don't move that much but you don't want to stick your head in the trunk for long. Naturally its dimming the dome light pretty good so I have to see what I wired it with before I put a bigger amp in...but I did hammer it some with the car off too. Finally, I got it low enough to shake the rearview mirror now. I'll try a port plug on it too. Can't find any Thiele on this sub to see where I'm at. They say it's made by audiobahn.

Baja340SF
03-28-2007, 05:09 PM
really don't think i would want to mount to the console anyway, I have a friend with a similar boat and his dash rattles like hell !!
How can you even here it that far behind him? :p

markt111
03-29-2007, 11:20 AM
How can you even here it that far behind him? :p



cmon play nice Phil,

Baja340SF
03-29-2007, 02:09 PM
cmon play nice Phil,

Its all good! :D

1BadAction
03-29-2007, 03:00 PM
sho, the problem with those 2" surrounds is, even though you get 1/2" more excursion, you give up more than that in surface area. but still it should work ok, although my preference is a smaller box for tighter response. maybe one of these days I'll get the best of all worlds and make an aperiodic enclosure...

STV_Keith
03-29-2007, 03:29 PM
1bad, that assumes that the motor structure can move the cone another 1/2". Sho, what is the xMax TS of that driver?

1BadAction
03-29-2007, 03:41 PM
1bad, that assumes that the motor structure can move the cone another 1/2". Sho, what is the xMax TS of that driver?

yes, thats what im getting at. even "if" the sub can make it another 1/2" it never makes up for the lost displacement vs a regular size cone... we went through this a few years back, I was testing subs for a local company in competitions and had to swap to an older style one time because the bigger surround just didnt put out. even when they were driven harder. when I got back to the house and did the math I seen why... :eek:

sho305
03-29-2007, 03:44 PM
True, but I'd hoped the ~10" cone in a 12 would want a smaller box. It appears to work but is still tight...I can sell it to you soon as the others are in:). It was way boomy, no low bass at all with the infinity(that recommends a 1.5cuft box not this 1.25). Now it shakes the mirror some and sounds better though I added all the batting at the same time. I only have sansui/ppi 75x2rms on it and it goes loud enough for me in the car with amp turned down, really loud if I turn up the xover frequency. I took the port out and capped it, smoothed it out a little. Cone is far from max excursion w/port or not. Tried stuffing the port too but it blows out anything you put in it. I am getting another amp with bass controls on it, a subsonic and boost gizmo, thinking I may be able to enhance the lowest tones better and its bigger. A soundstream rubicon 302. Here is the sub http://www.adrenalineoutlet.com/customer/product.php?productid=18407&cat=0&page=30

"1000 watts RMS" yeah right. It does look pretty HD, and the cone is really stiff to move. I can see the voice coil in there is out way past the magnet like 3/4" but have no idea what xmax is. Got it on ebay. I can't find a website, I emailed Audiobahn & got no answer. You can push it in about 1/4" and it gets real stiff, I don't want to deform the cone (its hard too though) and I doubt that is a precise way to tell anyhow. Even that surround is double layer with red on the backside, tought stuff you have to push hard to move it with your finger compared to most that are soft. I never had one of these fat subs.

True, you lose a lot of surface area and the surface is what moves the air. You are usually better to go bigger if you can because you gain so much surface area the cone can move a lot less for the same output...say from 10 to 12" for example. But too big you run into the cone not being able to react as fast.

STV_Keith
03-29-2007, 03:49 PM
What head unit are you running it from? How many v Pre Outs? How far turned up is the gain on the amp?

If you want a wicked sub with some serious excursion and power handling, look into Resonant Engineering (http://www.reaudio.com). Great stuff and the price isn't bad.

sho305
03-29-2007, 03:56 PM
Alpine CD HU, Nakamichi 2 way x-over, sansui 1500 by PPI 2x75 rms, 300 bridged, high side ancient 3518 Alpine 30x2 I think, parallel to boston 5x7 compnents and some pioneer 5x7 coax in back. Just changed speakers and alpine is maxed out, I can get a dual 150x2 or use the sansui on the high side. When I try to push some bass out of the 5x7s it starts breaking up with these speakers...the other ones didn't make bass/mid bass really but were laying around when I put them in.

Oh, and I have a broken Linear Power PAII-R I am trying to get fixed. Its a parametric EQ/line driver from the old school stuff.

STV_Keith
03-29-2007, 04:09 PM
Is that a 2v or 4v Alpine HU? Might consider picking up an Audio Control Matrix line driver if it's a 2v. They work wonders. :)

sho305
03-29-2007, 05:27 PM
Don't know, its a CDA7837 that came in a car I bought repo'ed about 6 yr ago...had to buy a new face/remote for it and its worked good since. I can max the HU out and it is clear sounding.

Manual says 500mv/10K ohms, then has a note that it will be over 2.0v in use. I don't know if my x-over adds any power or not, it has gains on it too. Amp is maybe 2/3 on sub and x-over gain about same. Audio Control, I'll look at it. The linear was nasty too, it would push 5v into an amp and the linear amps loved it. They were very clean. I have to get some parts for it and see how much a guy will charge to put it together.

I'm sure with the bigger amps it will go loud enough for what I need, just want some more SQ out of it. I am going to fab a sealed baffle into the rear seat and put two infinity 12" there free air. They say they will work at half wattage, so 150rms each and that should be good for me. Plus the other amp has subsonic filter on it to run free air better, I would think. Don't have time to do it yet and have to remount the amps and all that too. But then the trunk will be near empty...:cool:

I used to shake the car with 4 10" on a 60x2 rms blaupunkt when I had a car that had room. That amp would pull 24amps max and was about all the subs would handle. But it went louder than many other amps I tried for whatever reason, I must have put over 6 different amps on those subs in the 60-150w/ch range. $15 pyramid subs and it thundered. I later got RF subs and they were about the same....pyle drivers would do more but they don't make them anymore. The magnets barely fit the cutout hole on a 10".

sho305
03-30-2007, 09:29 AM
Markt111 hope you don't mind me posting this stuff about my junk:o Here is a little pic of it but someone must be using this stuff in a boat too...someplace, trying to get it to work right. I have used a lot of car stuff in boats as long as they don't have direct exposure/are not left out in rain/etc. I mono'ed out the sub amp with Y cords after I unbridged it so my wiring got messed up, had it bridged on the other sub. That black panel behind the box, I will remove it and mount ply with two 12"s.

STV_Keith
04-02-2007, 12:20 AM
Mark:

About the stereo...I tried mine out this weekend. First, I can't hear anything over the motors, so while running, it's useless. :) Second, I need those other speakers higher up. While in the boat, it sounds great. If you want any of the sound to get out of the boat, the higher you can place the speakers, the better. At this point, I'm thinking that I'm going to add the extra speakers where I mentioned, then wire the current ones together as "rear" and the new ones as "front", so I can fade the higher mounted speakers off if I don't want to have the music loud outside of the boat.

About raising the engines...this weekend was my first real running of the boat since raising the motors. As I said, I raised them 1-7/8" from where they were. The boat went 74.5 on GPS on Friday, which is 4.7mph better than it went before. My plan is to raise the motors at least another inch before my next outing. Here is a video of where the water is hitting the gearcases today: Video Link (http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/Havasu3-30-07/DSCN6627.MOV) Right click the link and hit "save target as" to save it to your computer. That will also show you why I can't hear the stereo over the motors. :) That video was shot at 3600rpm/42mph.

sho305
04-02-2007, 10:59 AM
You may not be able to, but 6x9 or 7x10s seem to be a lot louder in a boat than round speakers. We used to mount them by the floor under seats a lot.

markt111
04-02-2007, 12:56 PM
sounds like your def getting dialed in, great speeds!!! using the B1 24 I assume or did you run the 26s? how high are your RPMs now?

I need to try some B1s on mine I think

STV_Keith
04-02-2007, 12:58 PM
Turned the B1 24's 6400-6500 to get the 74.5mph. With the 26's, it went 73.4 @ 5900 or so. Too much at the depth they are now. I am going to raise them the remaining 2" on the plates I have...then maybe I'll need the 26's. :)

MarylandMark
04-02-2007, 01:43 PM
2 subs on my boat work great!

STV_Keith
04-02-2007, 02:00 PM
Is there a box behind them MM?

MarylandMark
04-02-2007, 02:13 PM
I will check when I get home but I don't think so....

sho305
04-02-2007, 10:31 PM
Most of the marine subs say they are for free air. I found Plye marine 10" for $35+ship. If thats a good deal. http://www.amazon.com/PYLE-PLMR-W10-Power-Marine-Woofer/dp/B0006ADJY8/ref=sr_1_23/102-7515762-9411321?ie=UTF8&m=A1ULLGOIO2ENL9&s=generic&qid=1175537037&sr=1-23

The more the better with free air. I found original pyramids for under 20 shipped, I'd put 4 of them in and if they puke just put new. You will not be able to over power them though, and need room for that many. Too bad you could not figure out how to mount a baffle board under the deck for them.

MarylandMark
04-03-2007, 10:09 AM
Mine are free air. I still need to play with the amps a tad as well- don't think they are set up correctly..

sho305
04-03-2007, 10:42 AM
Is this cheap for a sony CDXGT805DX HU? I hate Sony, but a deal is a deal. Has remote too. 13.50 for shipping to me plus 140 so 154 total.
http://www.audio-warehouse.com/web/mdl/CDXGT805DX/detail.asp

And it has the x-over in the HU? Are they any good?

kimswang
04-05-2007, 12:27 PM
Just discovered this thread and read it with keen interest. I finally got my boat powered up yesterday (first time in 2 years). Turned on the stereo and what a sound - Loved it! I have 4 Pioneer 8" hooked up to an Alpine V12, two 10" subs from Boss hooked up to their own amp from Pioneer. It was awesome! I will add 8 Fosgate Marine speakers (to fill some holes) and I guess the sound can only get better. However my GPS is dead as a doornail. It fired up during testing while I was building my CC, but now it is all dead. Will try to trouble shoot later today.

markt111
04-07-2007, 06:26 PM
heres a link to the interior shots

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/markt1112004/album?.dir=/1545re2

STV_Keith
04-25-2007, 12:26 PM
Mark, looking at your pictures again, I'd again suggest to put the subs where your front speakers are now (since they have room behind them for boxes), move those speakers up, and to the front bulkhead (they are thinner as well and will fit better there, as well as bringing the sound up higher in the boat).

My other suggestion would be to build a box or boxes for additional speakers, if you are going to add more, and hang it from the bottom of the T-top. I have seen setups like that in golf carts and sand rails. Plus, having it up high will get the highs, mids out to your ears too.

Here are a few pics since I added the other two pair in my boat:

2 new rear speakers, in the gunwales facing the helm
http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/overview2.jpg


Additional 2 up front
http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/front-speakers2.jpg

http://www.speedcraving.com/scarab/stereo-new/front-speakers3.jpg

Having 4 pair in the boat allowed me to wire each two in parallel and run the amp down to a 2ohm load, which doubled it's output. Also, these speakers have a directional tweeter that I can face in certain directions. That did help project the sound to where you would be standing in the boat.

Just my $.015

sho305
04-25-2007, 03:05 PM
They look nice, but I would have to say if it were mine I would put 4 (or 6 if needed) marine free air subs under those seats and be done with it, and have plenty of rumble without boxes or anything. More is better with IB subs, but they will put out when you get enough and not even need that much power. A 300W rms amp should be plenty for them if not too much. Then you can also keep your storage there as IB subs don't care that much as long as there is air space they will work, but might sound different. Actually it would tighten them up.

Put the mid/highs higher up for better imaging and not in same backspace as subs, or not very near them anyway.

But that just my $.02 & IMHO.

I'll be putting 2 or 3 12" subs IB in my car soon and I will let you know how they work:) right in the back seat.

STV_Keith
04-25-2007, 03:12 PM
At this point, I'm impressed enough with the 8's to be considering NOT doing subs at all. I just keep thinking of how much weight not doing subs would save me. Between the subs, box(s), amp(s) and batteries to support them, I'd be adding like 400+ # to the boat.

sho305
04-25-2007, 03:24 PM
Well that is a point and up to you. I was in a boat with four 7x10s and it rocked, was very loud on about a 300W rms old school amp and had good bass. Free air is easy and lighter though, no box needed and some amps don't weigh much. Most IB subs are not super huge because the giant magnets would just push the cone right out. I have some smaller lighter amps that are 300w rms, but then with a boat I would get a class D/etc sub amp, they take less power and are more efficient. But you should not need a big one if you get quality, IB will not take that much power and they top out....but when they top out they are pushing a lot of air too, no box holding them back.

sho305
05-30-2007, 06:10 PM
Did you do anything more with the boat stereo? I still don't have my free airs in the car but getting close, have the baffle made. I got a 12" explode in a 1cf box that sounds pretty nice for a temp, it would work in a boat if you kept the box dry or resined one. Its on a 150wrms x 1 ppi amp and takes it all with a good low tone.

markt111
06-15-2007, 12:32 PM
just have the new Infinity Kappas in, will cut the jole for the sub this weekend hopefully, sounds pretty good right now for just a few 6.5s running a good Kicker amp which is probably why I can hear even when running

sho305
06-15-2007, 12:44 PM
Sounds good. I just got a kicker 700.5, will see how it does but should be plenty for me if I can just get it installed. Need to pedal some old stuff now. I'm not as happy with the explode 12 though it works ok, I dug out some other old CDs and it does not sound so good with them. Certain songs it pounds and others it just isn't there....so I know it has a peak in response. With a bass CD it will shake the car, impressive for such a small box but my IB subs will be better....they will shake everything when I get them right.

Wile E. Coyote
06-17-2007, 06:47 PM
OK read thru all of this and one question, why not hang a couple of bazooka tubes under your seat or some other not needed to cut a big hole location? you can even get them with their own power supply....

sho305
06-17-2007, 07:04 PM
They work but the good ones cost a fair amount. I like IB subs (cut hole, no box) because they sound better, so I might be biased. You could also use a regular box in a protected place, but the tubes are nice because they are much lighter. I have never heard the cheap big tubes, you can get pyramid/pyle 12" tubes with the woofer pretty cheap. Seems like they would hold up for a while if they didn't get rained on. If they worked one could always resin up the tube to waterproof it. Cheap subs can work nice if you don't overpower them and they are in right box, just use more of them. MDF just weighs a ton in a regular box, I don't even want one in my car. I have always made them out of ply that is a hair lighter. I do have a single 12 sealed 1cf right now that works ok, depending on how much thunder you need, and its not that heavy. I was working on my subs today but not getting that far.

markt111
07-09-2007, 01:53 PM
update,

sub is finally installed and rumbles pretty good!!:) :) :) def a huge difference

need to dial it in a little more after a few hours run time on the sub, best part is I'm running everything on one amp so i reserve the batteries while hanging at the sandbar

sho305
07-09-2007, 06:08 PM
Hey you get stuff done faster than me!:rolleyes: So how did you mount it? I almost have 4 12s installed in my car...having to make a bunch of custom stuff to do it. I just bought a 5ch amp for like $75tmd on ubid, can't beat that with a stick.

markt111
07-09-2007, 07:21 PM
I'll post a pic when I get a chance to take one, mounted it free air and it does hit pretty good, good enough for me, not looking to wake up the world just add a little thudd

mounted in neither of the spots I previously thought of, closer to where Keith suggested

sho305
07-09-2007, 08:00 PM
I love IB! IB (free air) gets low, to me its addictive like at a concert or good bar system. Just remember that two is twice as good and four....four rules:cool:. Four going into my car and I'm going to work on that right now, all IB & 12"! Have to glue the frame I built together for no rattles. When the sub hits Xmax that is all you get, you add more for more bass....that is why it is so nice to not have any bulky boxes for each one...lol:D

Ryano
07-30-2007, 11:12 PM
Free air is the way to go. I have a 21" Liberator with 4 JL Audio 10" marine subs. I am running two A1400 (400W RMS @12.5V) JL amps on them. They will impress anyone who gets in the boat. It is really to much. If you have not heard the JL Marine subs check them out. I install alot of those subs, mostly in wake board boats. The only time I would recommend a box is if you don't care about weight and can load the sub. That is if you have room, forxample, to install a sealed or ported box in front of the drivers seat or passenger seat facing forward firing into the boat. It gives you that hatch back effect. My subs are mounted in the bow storage area. There are two mounted on each side facing each other. Its is almost like have a bead cut in a pickup. The subs use the sponces for air space.

In the Scarab a couple of subs in a box under the rear seat firing down, 3" to 4" from the floor would hammer. Subs perform better when they are not playing out into the air. The location in the front of the Scarab is not bad but I would try putting a board catty corner in the compartments to separate the subs from each other. That would keep the subs from canceling out each other under those seats. If subs are going to be using the same air space they need to be mounted on the same plain. It might be worth trying you would probably notice a little difrence. You may also try a litte Dynamat on the fiberglass inside your compartmnets. You can pickup 3db in a car with the stuff why not use it in a boat.

markt111
08-03-2007, 08:25 PM
finally snapped a couple shots... nothing to crazy to look at(just clean and easy)

thinking of adding another one straight across under the other seat since it was a noninvasive install, would them firing at each other take away or cause a bad affect or would it be good??

markt111
08-03-2007, 08:31 PM
shi** forgot the pics

STV_Keith
08-03-2007, 10:01 PM
Great location Mark. ;)

sho305
08-05-2007, 09:23 PM
I've never had a problem with them facing each other, and I've done boats that way. Just can't let the rear of the sub connect with the front...not usually a problem with a boat. But if the panel ends a ways from the sub you might have to put a blocker in there...like some side panels do. If the subs run mono they can have a common rear area. As always make sure none are out of phase.

More is better with free air subs. I have the 4 12s working free air in my car now and they sound good so far but I don't have it tuned in yet and have not hammered on it hard yet. Have different amp and eq, all new wiring plus the subs. I just got it wired up but was busy this weekend. It has some thump however. Oh, I actually ran my boat for the first time in 2yr...:eek: I feel better.:)

BTW, looks really nice in pics!

Should add that some home theater setups running IB use manifolds. They build a box just big enough for the subs on each side and put one side open into the room. Then mount subs facing into the box from two or all four sides. I've seen pics on the net with 8 subs in them, they were 12s or 15s. They put them in attics and crawl spaces.

Ryano
08-05-2007, 11:09 PM
There won't be any problems facing each other. That is how mine are. I would recommend separating the coax from the sub. An easy way to do that would be to use a foam baffle on the coax.

markt111
08-06-2007, 07:54 AM
good point on the seperation!! didn't think of that, does it matter that that is a wide opencompartment (open into the cabin) has a 12x16 or so opening into the cabin with just a 4-button leather snap cover

have not heard much good about those foam baffles thou either??

pyro
08-06-2007, 08:20 AM
Foam baffles won't really stop the low tones from interacting (the sub "pushing" the coax woofer out of phase as it hits) They WILL keep moisture, spiders and dirt away from your speakers though.

sho305
08-06-2007, 11:30 AM
That is true though obviously they work that way. I have run lots of old cars with subs in the rear deck and 6x9 right next to them...the effect on the 6x9 was limited it seemed, then again 6x9 were HD speaker too. Some cars I did make a little box for 6x9, it is the proper way to do it. It may be because trunks are so big of a box? You need something rigid that does not vibrate like wood, maybe a strong plastic bowl even. This will also help mid bass response and power handling in your smaller speaker...the enclosure can be fairly small and I put a little poly batting in there.

I have used the foam rear covers like that from crutchfield on 6.5 and smaller speakers with success; in doors and dashes. It will keep them clean and does tighten them up. In fact you can tune them some by how many holes or slots you cut in the foam to let the speaker breath more. But no they will not hold back bass from a sub. If you wanted to I bet you could glass over one to make an enclosure...the nicest part about them is they bolt on with the speaker so mounting is easy.

You mean the sub is open into the cuddy? That should not matter. Most of the time if you have a baffle a few foot from the sub it is ok if it gets open, the issue is when you are to the side of the sub it will cancel out then. Bass will be strong in front or behind and weak where the sound waves come together on sides (if rear is open to front). Open to another "room" is fine. Even with my car it does this to a point as the bass will be strong ahead and behind the car but not as much to the sides. I think it is from the bass exiting the trunk through the car....otherwise the low bass is not very directional. If you have a sub box, then the back side is contained inside so you don't get any cancelation issues. The more distance or obstacles between the front and rear the less it happens....and then only when you are in that 'between' point.

Usually not that much of a problem with a proper install, but all the more reason I say more is better with IB installs. I read you get +6db when you double your subs (+3db is twice as loud). With my car and 4 12s I have more sub than I need so I really don't care about cancelation issues or having to fire them through the rear seat cushion...though I will seal the rear seat baffle and deck as much as practical to do. Also a small hole will make no difference; it acts like a port that is too small and will resonate at a frequency above what your subs work at. I could line my whole trunk with MDF and/or sound deadening material...but that would be too much work and lots of weight. All I really care about is that it thunders with me in the car.

After writing that book, I would still consider putting another set of subs where your small speakers are and remounting the highs up higher if you have a spot. That would give you better imaging/staging.

markt111
08-06-2007, 01:27 PM
not going to relocate and cut additional holes above, mounted the sub here to not invade on the cleanliness of the cabin and such... may add another in the other seat across at max

sho305
08-06-2007, 02:12 PM
That is ok, sometimes you can do it and sometimes you can't. If you don't have a lot of treble and you have a little spot sometimes extra tweeters work nice higher up, and you might be able to hide them someplace. Might have to put resistors or an L pad on them so you can match the volume and blend them in.

rollin
08-06-2007, 11:04 PM
okay, if you build a sub box and leave the back off or put a vent(port)on the opposite side you end up with some bad frequency responce. if you double power(amps) and subs,a gain of +3db is acheaved.if you give a sub something to load on , it puts presure on the voice coil making the bass note harder. an IB will never be as loud as a seal box. vented box uses less power than sealed but can be tuned to the hertz that is needed to become louder than a sealed box. cancelation: you may not hear it but if you aim subs at each there is cancelation occuring where the sound waves come in contact with each other. if this happens the sound is just not as crisp or loud to your ear. sometime its unavoidable like in a marine application.if at all possible try to angle subs just alittle. I've got 12-10" subs in a xtra cab chevy powered by a sound stream 6500.i know bass its my friend.

sho305
08-06-2007, 11:33 PM
Ah, the boxes. IB can work just fine if done correctly. Many subs out today are not for IB but some can do it. Marine subs usually are for IB. Just remember when you run half the wattage into a sub at IB and hit Xmax, you just hit Xmax with half the wattage of a sealed box and you moved the same amount of air. Ported gets you a little more sure, and a big heavy box too. IB tends to be better at lower Hz due to the slow rolloff there. A small sealed box will be loud, but not at 30Hz like the IB will. If you want SPL, then IB is not for you. All depends on what you want. And, often since you have no box you can fit a lot more subs like the 4 12s in the back of my little car and I still have a big trunk to use. I had less room with a single 12 in a 1cf box. In fact cheaper subs work great IB if you have the room and get the right ones. They can be a lot more efficient and in a boat with an OB you might not be blessed with extra battery power.

RikuY
08-07-2007, 08:21 AM
Sho,
No offense, but most of your comments seem to be copy and pasted from some internet audio forum. And your focus on "cheap" is unfair to the people that are willing to spend more for a proper set-up and not wanting to cut corners because a sub costs $150 a piece.

General specifications for a boat system are efficient, low power draw and must fit into the open spots in the certain hull. Cancellation is inefficient. Sure, your 4-12's are great, but what if one proper 12" in a box is louder and cleaner than your 4, and it was cheaper and lighter?

Let me guess, the price of your cheap subs made you go with your 4?

STV_Keith
08-07-2007, 10:45 AM
If you want SPL, then IB is not for you.

EXACTLY. And in most boat applications (free air with lots of ambient noise), you want SPL, not SQ.

sho305
08-07-2007, 11:42 AM
No pasting here. Most people are clueless about running IB subs, I have been doing it since the late 80s when that was mostly all there was. I may not know it all but I know enough. Most expensive subs today will not work well IB and it is difficult to find out what will. Big Xmax is not the answer for IB. I had great success running pyramid subs for many years and blowing off more expensive subs regularly....that is why I say cheaper subs can work fine. I usually ran 4 10s with a 120-150wrms amp though at 2 ohms and most were rated at 4. They could hit Xmax with that power so that was all I needed. For music it was loud, you could feel it in the chest. I am sure 4000w systems today are louder if that is all you want.

I have Infinity 1242 subs, the manual states about half the wattage for IB so that would be 150wrms each if that matters. They are on a 420wrms amp at 2 ohms but I have not beat it hard yet. Yes, I got them used cheap I don't even know how much they are new, but since the manual actually said they could be used IB I thought I would try them...odds are they are better than the $15 pyramids right? I tend to like paper cones better though. The sub is important because what you buy for IB is about all the tuning you can do unlike a box.

I ran one in a box and hated it, a 1.25 box ported and sealed. I like SQ but loud sometimes. I ran an audiobahn, an MTX 4500 that was so-so, then got an explode in a 1cf sealed box that was lower but still not impressive to me (and still too big). Sure a larger box would have helped tune them lower but I don't have the room, I have plenty of room now and this setup will likely produce more bass than I need and sound better as the subs will not be stessed. I can't tell you what a good IB sub is today, I am just trying these out. MTX makes some and most marine subs are. People are hunting for large subs to run IB in home theater and there are few....most makers don't want you to do it for warranty reasons. If you are dumb enough to exceed xmax a lot you will trash them IB and most people don't seem to care for their equipment these days as its so cheap to buy.

In addition most high wattage subs will be less efficient, and those are the subs you will need if you run one or few subs. You will need more power to run them. If you want more bass with IB you need more subs, you only get what you get per sub I don't dispute that...that is why I put 4 in. For music it should blow me out of the car since I am not a kid anymore. People who never ran good IB love to dis it, and like I said if you want loud buzz-bomb SPL it is not the way to go. I want loud music that sounds roughly like it was recorded, not a woofer that hits 60Hz and nothing else. If I want to impress someone my 30Hz usually carries farther anyway. To get that out of a box it would be huge and weigh a ton, not what I want. The trade offs are worth it in this app to run IB. Ask this guy how his one little IB sub sounds in this boat, then ask him what he would think of 4 of them in his boat with no box/weight and easy install just cut a hole.

I am not going to agree that one expensive 12 can equal my 4 middling level subs. Even with huge Xmax you are going to drive it silly with huge wattage to get close and still not move as much air for low Hz response. And your huge ported box will take up lots of room. Yeah 4 of these are heavy, but MDF is too. Maybe I am wrong and so be it, but don't be so sure of it if you don't have experience with IB subs. In some places boxes are great, I've had a pile of them and built most of them myself for home and car, but very few for boats. And all my stuff is for music, all my comments are directed at that use. Yes, I hate the sound of SPL tuned subs like most people do.

1BadAction
08-07-2007, 11:50 AM
infinate baffle SUCKS. they do nothing well. the only reason people use IB is because they can stick a 12 somewhere and not worry about anything else.

but what do i know, i guess anyone can make 2 12s and 1 amp hit 155db and place top 10 in SQ the same day.

RikuY
08-07-2007, 12:00 PM
Okay, sho... Good luck with all that.

Going back to the original post, I recommend a marine speaker in a recommended sealed enclosure in the cuddy of the boat. IB in the gunwale is not a good option. You get good sound reproduction and also weather protection in the cuddy. The sound might not be perfectly reproduced, but it's an open boat... you just want it loud and clear.

sho305
08-07-2007, 12:16 PM
It is pretty simple to put a sub in a sealed box in winISD and look at the curve. Then make another with a huge 20cf box showing IB. You will see the SLP drop some but the lower Hz come up. So you use twice the subs on IB to get the SPL back up, by the time you cross it over at say 80Hz anyway your response is much nicer and your power handling is not bad with twice the drivers. You can even get a subsonic filter or use some aperiodic dampening to tune them, not to mention all the EQs and crossovers/etc.

Hey 1Bad, you are right you need a box for SPL. IB works great for me, but it can take work and the right drivers to get it to work well...and my car has a trunk I can put stuff in. I am still finishing up wiring and stuff and have not run it much. If the Infinity don't work I will buy pyramids just to screw with people, but I think they are going to be fine they sounded good the little I have run them. I would run it on the mic if I have the chance just to see, but never get to stuff like that if they even have it around here. It will hit 20Hz no problem, it can sound like a home theater.

If you want a box, please put a box in your boat/car/where ever! IMO in a boat that can mount IB like this one I don't see the point of it unless you have a specific reason. Its more work and more weight and you have less space. In a hydrostream there is no place to put IB so a box is needed.

STV_Keith
08-07-2007, 01:26 PM
you are right you need a box for SPL. IB works great for me, but it can take work and the right drivers to get it to work well...and my car has a trunk I can put stuff in.

Thing is, in your sealed up car, it may work fine. On the sand bar, competing with 500 other stereos, SPL is king.

http://www.speedcraving.com/keith/sandbar.jpg

sho305
08-07-2007, 01:45 PM
Well you could get some PA speakers to set on top of the boat...man thats a lot of boats in that pic. For what this guy seemed to want it should work, but I think I can rattle some windows with my IB. Always have before. We never had stereo wars in our deep vee boats, just cranked up the music and partied. It was more like a portable dance club I guess.

STV_Keith
08-07-2007, 01:49 PM
PA speakers are done mainly on the pontoons. Out here, having serious stereo in the boat is common...I'm talking people with 15k in the stereo. Ever seen a Trident deck boat? Comes stock with 4 sealed 12's and a myriad of other speakers right from the factory.

Go here: http://www.tridentcustomboats.com/

Then click on specs, then audio system. And that's a STOCK system. ;)

sho305
08-07-2007, 05:16 PM
Certainly impressive, but an impressive boat as well. That seems like a lot more than what this post was after; that is full on hammer time when you have 4 12s and 8 sets of comps stock running on a Zapco and Trojan batteries. That boat must require a load of coin to buy.

STV_Keith
08-07-2007, 06:28 PM
That's what you compete with out here. My setup is very modest by comparison.

rollin
08-07-2007, 09:30 PM
sho listen I understand you like the low end cheep stuff,but if your really stuck in the late 80s with ib set up I feel sorry for you..TIMES CHANGE GET WITH IT.......anyone worth a grain of salt would not recomend an ib anything to a customer.....you take it from one extreme to an other in your posts,that tells me you really don't know what your really talking about.......good luck and if you ever get down to florida I'll show you what your missing out on. I'm done.

sho305
08-07-2007, 11:00 PM
This post started with him wanting more bass in his boat with no subs...so you toss an IB marine sub in there or a few, what is wrong with that? Are you going to make him build a fiberglassed box he had little room for and do all that labor and mounting for what, hardly any difference with the sub he is using?

When was the last time you listened to an IB setup, if ever? Like I said, IB works fine for music but not the best for SPL that often sounds like crap anyway. It will sound like crap if you properly tune it for max SPL. Boxes are the best noise makers if that is what you want. And if you don't have room for a box like I don't, then what do you suggest?

I finished my car tonight and listened to it some, cranking the subs up feels kind of abusive in the car. I'll have to sort it more but it has way plenty enough bass for any kind of music I will listen to. It played a 30Hz and under track really nicely. I have waited for many years to get an IB setup back in a car I drive, this will be sweet. You guys can have your boxes all you want, I'll only use one when I have to.

And yes usually subs is the last place I spend money for a SQ-ish car stereo. I never had to so why should I start? When my head hurts that is loud enough for my use.

STV_Keith
08-07-2007, 11:14 PM
And yes usually subs is the last place I spend money for a SQ-ish car stereo.

I see where you have gone wrong...this is a boating site...not a car site. SPL is the game with boats.

markt111
08-08-2007, 07:58 AM
easy boys, I was just wanting a little thump in my music, I have some now and may add one more sub if I get motivated, maybe in the fall

it's sounds good for my application and the install was reasonable$$ and not time consuming

sho305
08-08-2007, 09:26 AM
Glad it works for you Mark111.

Well I guess if you guys are in a SPL boat competition, then that is what you do. We didn't do that because you can't talk to the chicks when its that loud, and generally it PO'ed them if you had that much volume anyway....and chicks was the name of the game we didn't want to pick up guys. A loud dance floor was about what we aimed for. It sounded good at 80mph, but the pipes sounded better most of the time.

sho305
08-08-2007, 09:49 AM
You know the more I think about it, maybe you guys are lucky they have stereo wars. For the amount of money we put into motors we could have run $150 subs the length of the boat and anything else. We didn't have unlimited budgets and going fast was #1 priority.

STV_Keith
08-08-2007, 10:49 AM
The chicks out here want a dance club on the sand bar...and while some boats come equipped with a stripper pole, most of the dancing happens on the sand bar, at least a few feet from the boat....so it has to be loud enough to get the girlies shakin' about 15' away.

http://www.speedcraving.com/stv/op6-5/1/images/DSCN0395.jpg

Yes, those are L7 Kicker 12's with 5000w of Cadence power on them. ;)

sho305
08-08-2007, 11:03 AM
If that is not a party waiting to happen I don't know what is, what a setup. We had a lot of good times on the water, man that was fun. One 28' boat we had hatches in the floor and one was full of ice, the other empties. We had the coast guard around here and they never looked in there. Now I go out on a little lake in my little bayliner when I really have to get some wind, and have tons of other stuff I have to do instead of taking off with a big boat full of beer in tow. I'll get a faster OB to play with one of these days.

blkmtrfan
08-08-2007, 11:43 AM
http://www.speedcraving.com/stv/op6-5/1/images/DSCN0395.jpg



They better get that beer on ice :D

1BadAction
08-08-2007, 12:12 PM
ive never been a fan of the big mass produced name brands. its like comparing a triton to an allison... but im sure 4 of them will work pretty good. :eek:

macutty
08-23-2007, 03:45 PM
subs in boat = sealed enclosure, no question. For SPL in an open air environment you aren;t going to get your moneys worth out of anything else.

Also: stay away from garbage brands. If you can't afford a full range system of preium components buy fewer pieces and add on to it later.

I know it's not always easy to find room for a sub box but it's not worth doing if you don't. You'll waste good $$ that would have been better spent on mids/tweets.

Also be wary of wattage claims by manufacturers. There has been a trend forming for the last 5-7 years of throwing the biggest watt rating they could try and claim on every amp and most of the time it's bullshat. You need to also look at ratings such as THD and Ohms.

Amps in the 90's used to be rated under the worst possible conditions providing the lowest possible wattage so they could then be installed for competition and output often 2 or 3 times their rated power. They were refered to as "cheater amps".

Today this stuff is marketed to the masses the show up at best buy and say "I want 2000 watts in my car cause my buddy has 1500".

To be honest, I usually go on ebay and find the old stuff when I'm doing a new system. Ever wonder why a 10 year old Punch 40 (2x20 watts) sells for more than a current model rated at 300 watts? The new stuff is crap for the most part. It's all made in china (don't let RF fool you, they, like many others have the boards and pieces made in china and do a final assembly in the US and then claim "made in the USA".

sho305
08-23-2007, 09:31 PM
Yeah I like the old amps better too. I am trying to make this new kicker work but not sure about it yet. My IB set up is working but not quite right, have to figure out if its the drivers or amp.

rollin
08-24-2007, 12:29 PM
what is thd? and why look at ohms?

macutty
08-24-2007, 02:29 PM
what is thd? and why look at ohms?

THD = Total Harmonic Distortion. This is the percent of the sound output that is distortion rather than music. The standard used to be .01% or less but these days its not uncommon to see .1 or higher. It may not look like much but will reduce max volume by a huge amount (no one wants to listen to distortion).

The reason to look at OHM's is that many (if not most) manufacturers are marketing amps based on 2 OHM output rather than 4 OHM output. wattage doubles (in a perfect world which it's not) when OHMs are halved so an amp that puts out 2x100@2 OHMs only puts out 2x50@4 OHMs. Also, pretty much every speaker sold today (with the exception of some very specific woffers) are 4 OHM speakers. So unless you are going to double up your speakers you won't be able to run it at 2 OHMs anyways (2 x 4 OHM speakers wired in parallel = 2 OHM load).

The other thing to look at is the new trend of marketing "Dynamic power" ratings. as watts = amps x volts....when volts are increased so is wattage. The standard is to rate at 12 volts (worse possible scenario) but these days manufacturers like to rate based on 14.4 volts ( the perfect scenario, but not that easy to achieve consistantly without capacitors and a very healthy charging system).

Often an amp sold as 300 watts is only 300 with 14.4 volts @ 2 OHMS so under a typical 12 volt 4 OHM load power is more like 125 watts (300 watts / 14.4 volts = 20.83 amps 20.83 amps x 12 volts = 250 watts all of this at 2 OHMS....switch to 4 OHMs and you cut your 250 watts in to 125 watt.)

I have an old punch 60xi that is rated for 2x30 @ 4 OHMs at 12 volts but actually puts out 2x90 @ 4 OHM iwth 14.4.

Fosgate tried to diffuse the criticism by publishing comparisons of old school vs new school amps but when you look you notice the comparison criteria was list price, not marketed as wattage (they compare an amp marketed at 2x30 to one marketed as 2x125). They also did the comparison at 1% THD which would be impossible to listen to with that much distortion. They ommit the fact that the outputs even though they are relatively the same, the old school did it at .01% THD which is usable power unlike 1% THD.

The fosgate comparison is here: http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/scripts/rightnow.cfg/php.exe/enduser/fattach_get.php?p_sid=NQN3MZJi&p_tbl=9&p_id=418&p_created=1095371344

rollin
08-25-2007, 09:54 AM
allright allow me to retort;if you lower the ohm load it adds distortion. if you use cheater amp they inherently have distortion, also.in a sq set up you would never use an amp in that class.(punch 45,orion 225 hcca,or a cheater of any kind)the distortion you may never hear but on a meter its there.it also will in time shorten the life of the subs.the old amps kick a$$. but you cant compair rockford fosgate power to pyle power.even now the rating is so off its a joke.

kimswang
08-25-2007, 10:33 AM
Does that mean that rockford fosgate is a good choice? Please tell me it is as I have mounted 8 of them as well as 8 Pioneer Marine and two BOSS marine subs in my little fishing boat. All hooked up to three amps. It sounds awesome, but some of the language and specs in this thread is like greek to me....

macutty
08-25-2007, 07:52 PM
Does that mean that rockford fosgate is a good choice? Please tell me it is as I have mounted 8 of them as well as 8 Pioneer Marine and two BOSS marine subs in my little fishing boat. All hooked up to three amps. It sounds awesome, but some of the language and specs in this thread is like greek to me....


Don't get me wrong, fosgate are still better than many of the brands out there. Don't touch "consumer" brands or cheapos that they sell at walmart, circuit city, etc.

As mentioned I like the old amps myself. I buy new speakers and head units but for amps I go to ebay and scope it out for a while waiting for something good (PPI Art or Promos series, mid 90's soundstream, mid 90's fosgates, Orion HCCA, etc.)

I don't really like the Pioneer stuff, but even they are better than many out there.

Big thing to remember is: if you like the way your system sounds who cares what brand it is. But if you evny the tunes of others buy quality stuff rather than spending on junk you may be disapointed with.

macutty
08-25-2007, 08:55 PM
allright allow me to retort;if you lower the ohm load it adds distortion. if you use cheater amp they inherently have distortion, also.in a sq set up you would never use an amp in that class.(punch 45,orion 225 hcca,or a cheater of any kind)the distortion you may never hear but on a meter its there.it also will in time shorten the life of the subs.the old amps kick a$$. but you cant compair rockford fosgate power to pyle power.even now the rating is so off its a joke.

Agreed, but you have to admit most of the quality old school stuff (HCCA, Fosgate, PPI) were able to go to 2 or even 1 OHM stable with <.1% THD. These days they are rating amps at <1% and thats just a joke, it would sound like crap.

The old stuff just was put together a lot better, but you did pay for it. I remember my first Punch 40XI puchase: $550 CDN for a "2x20 watt" amp....these days for $199 you get "2x150 watt"

sho305
08-27-2007, 09:54 AM
Seems like everything was more expensive in the old days...oh wait it was. What I find is a good amp will do one of two things: It will sound clean and play loud, then when you push it to the limit it will either suddenly distort on a hard hit of music (then you turn it down a hair and its great) or, it will sort of stop and not want to play louder...you push it more and more and it distorts a little finally but you know max output was reached because it just does not want to do more.

But crappy amps seem to go loud and you think it does not sound right because its already distorting but its hard to tell; a little louder and it distorts a little more but it will go louder than that and keep on distorting a little more as you go. Problem is its really hard to listen to loud and clean because you can't tell where that point is, and that point seems to be far under its maximum capability. They are only good for half volume play in SQ. Of course with a sub you can get away with some distortion if you have to, but not on highs.

The big problem is how hard it is to swap amps in your system until you have what you like. Ebay makes it easier, but I still have a bunch sitting around here. They can say good amps all sound the same, but they don't and a few crappy ones work good.

Linear power were cheater amps because they were rated at 12v. They were some of the best hand made in USA amps you could buy, and still will cost you. Put a higher voltage input on them and they will put out. They don't have any inherent distortion.

I read a few things about new and old amps, and they say the new ones are better because they are more efficient and so on. As far as sound I am not sure I agree, but then I don't use many new amps either. One old alpine I have does not even have RCAs on it or a gain and it works very nice. If this kicker I have does not work out I think I will try a new quality class d for subs and run a good older amp on highs.

Also some of the cheaper brands today have really good high end amps or a good line of amps and the rest is junk. You can usually tell by the price. It is amazing how amps used to be worth their weight in gold and now they are cheap throw-aways. I had given to me a 200x2/500x1rms sony, not a small amp really but apparently not good. You can buy them for ~100 all over, this one does not work and even sony wants 100 to fix it...I guess its just scrap but you would never toss a good amp like that. I hate sony these days, but they used to make some good stuff in japan...not anymore.

Other things I don't like about many new amps is when they put the heatsink on the bottom or mount the chips on the bottom, also the heatsink fins are tiny and many of them do get hot.