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View Full Version : Thousands of boats to re-power..



2fast4mom
02-11-2007, 01:36 AM
...And everywhere I hear this lame, dead rap about how high-performance, lightweight outboards are "such a small segment of the market" that no manufacturer is driven to fill the need, meet the challenge of a low-emission muscle monster.

Mercury dropping the 200XS was pretty much the throwing-in-the-towel for this market for them, or at least it seems this way at the moment to me. Maybe they've got things in the works, but if all they can do is build super-heavy 3 liters and racing Verados, they're pretty much leaving a gaping hole in the market for re-powering lightweight and fast 20-foot and under hulls.

How many such hulls are in the country right now? Allison, Bullet, HydroStream, STV, the list goes on...count 'em and put a stick pin in the map of the USA and you won't be able to see the map for the pins.

E-Tec is more than halfway there with an injection system rumored to work fine up to 10K rpm. Operative word, "rumored". Why doesn't BRP come out with an under-400lb motor with a new high-aspect-ratio lower unit w/low water pickups and put the rest of the world on notice?

THOUSANDS of boaters out there with perfectly good hulls whose owners love them, and NOBODY is going to make motors for them?

Sounds to me like an opportunity in work clothes for a forward-thinking company.

beer30
02-11-2007, 07:57 AM
The smaller hulls can work well with the 3.0.;) Here's one for you.:D Chuck

jphii
02-11-2007, 08:39 AM
And another:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4732/dsc0954apu9.jpg

beer30
02-11-2007, 08:52 AM
The people who purchased the 2.5 and it's derivatives, are far and few between when you look at the BIG picture. This website has 26,500 members, how many have a 2.5?? And when I talk 2.5, I mean the 280 or 260, and even throw in the 225 Pro Max or the X. Around here people have more Yami's, Honda or 'Rudes, Merc is barely in the mix. Also alot of the performance boat have I/O's also.:) Chuck

mercpunk
02-11-2007, 08:58 AM
it is not just that though ... how many people buy new or have the money to buy new ??????? I would say somewhere around 1/8 of the people on this site . why buy new when you can pick a good 260 for less than $4000 any day of the week. It is all about the money and the drive or willingness to spend it on mercury's part

B1750
02-11-2007, 09:04 AM
Unfortunately i have to agree with 2fast4mom here

Over here in Australia we do a fair bit of circuit racing and the smaller hulls are finding it harder to turn with the bigger motors

I would love to see Merc produce a current model 225 Pro Max utilising the 2.5 block with all latest technology
Personally i would be 1st person on bandwagon down at dealership buying new motor

beer30
02-11-2007, 10:18 AM
Unfortunately i have to agree with 2fast4mom here

Over here in Australia we do a fair bit of circuit racing and the smaller hulls are finding it harder to turn with the bigger motors

I would love to see Merc produce a current model 225 Pro Max utilising the 2.5 block with all latest technology
Personally i would be 1st person on bandwagon down at dealership buying new motor

You misunderstood my post. I LOVE the Merc 2.5 series ( 280, older 260 and the 300 Drag). But as John Tiger once said " Times are a Changing". It's up to us to overcome or adapt. Chuck

gfinch
02-11-2007, 03:01 PM
Emissions are driving the engine market. I think we can thank the Greenie's for the demise of the smaller/lighter/HP engines, at this point. You and I live in the state that mandates Green and the rest of the states follow.
Technology has/will produce more power but emission/silencing devices keep adding weight and cost.

stevek
02-11-2007, 03:09 PM
I have considered options for repowering my YT. When I emailed Jaco asking about the new Merc HP consumer OB I was told they all weighted (505lbs) to much for my boat. I don’t know the weight of a 2.5 HP motor, but I have to believe it is nowhere near 505 lbs.

beer30
02-11-2007, 03:16 PM
I have considered options for repowering my YT. When I emailed Jaco asking about the new Merc HP consumer OB I was told they all weighted (505lbs) to much for my boat. I don’t know the weight of a 2.5 HP motor, but I have to believe it is nowhere near 505 lbs.

About 350 to 400 lbs. for the 2.5 series. Chuck

stevek
02-11-2007, 03:33 PM
About 350 to 400 lbs. for the 2.5 series. Chuck

Thanks Chuck. I have a 2.5 HP os carb motor on my boat now.

Stinky
02-11-2007, 05:28 PM
...
THOUSANDS of boaters out there with perfectly good hulls whose owners love them, and NOBODY is going to make motors for them?

Sounds to me like an opportunity in work clothes for a forward-thinking company.

Merc had the 200XS, and the 2.5XS and NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY bought them.

Seems like the other part of your post (small segment) was right.

Why build something that nobody buys. Hard to get that one past a forward-thinking company.

:)

stevek
02-11-2007, 05:40 PM
Merc had the 200XS, and the 2.5XS and NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY bought them.

Seems like the other part of your post (small segment) was right.

Why build something that nobody buys. Hard to get that one past a forward-thinking company.

:)

Just a guess. But at the time they were introduced good used 2.5 225's, 245's, 260's and 280's were still available that outperformed them.

2fast4mom
02-11-2007, 07:56 PM
The 2.5XS was a dog, having the 3 liter gearcase/mid (heavier) and not available in a 15" configuration, which many folks prefer. A few of my friends have the 200XS and like them, but the following is probably true:


at the time they were introduced good used 2.5 225's, 245's, 260's and 280's were still available that outperformed them.


Not to mention that until last year, new 280's and 2.5 drag motors were still available as well..

At every boat show, I keep waiting to see something with the following capabilities exhibited. If they made it, I'd buy it. I own quite a few outboards, powerheads, and gearcases, and if they made something with engineering callout parameters like this, I'd sign on:

-gross weight not to exceed 400 lbs.
-2 stroke, electronic fuel management (envisage what modern electronics are capable of!)
-250 to 300 propshaft hp. Maybe keep it right under 250 to satisfy the BASS guys and extend market reach.
-9,000 rpm capability with a manufacturer's recommended top rpm of 8400 or thereabouts, with peak power at around 8,000. None of this "be happy with 5,000 rpm and 500 lbs" stuff.
-a lower unit that closely resembles one of the "modified" cases of the day from the bassboat/sportboat world, such as a Bob's or Titus, JC's or Robbie from Sanderson's.
-available in a 15" driveshaft configuration.
-Emission standards that satisfy the EPA and CARB.

I've been fortunate enough to be around lots of fast boats and great people. There are thousands of 20 foot and under hulls out there with service lives well into the foreseeable future, and yes, you can hang 500 lb motors on SOME of them, but still it's not optimal and a compromise. It puts the performance of the hulls as they were designed well under their limits.

All this shrugging and "adapt to the times" stuff to me is just a cop-out. Some bean-counters in the ivory corporate towers decided that R&D was better spent in easier technologies that ultimately produce platforms with higher base weights. What do they want us to do, shred our lightweight hulls or make wading pools and flowerbeds out of them?

This reminds me of the 1970's in the automotive world, when the EPA killed the muscle-cars. At the time, the mantra was, "it couldn't be done". 30 years later, we have cars that outperform the cars of that time, albeit with lots of technology and much higher prices, but the engines meet the stringent requirements. I suppose the difference here is that the market, relatively speaking, IS much smaller than that of the muscle-car, but I for one am totally convinced that there are enough customers out there to justify an investment in the above parameters.

Lou

gfinch
02-11-2007, 08:28 PM
How long ago was it LEGAL to buy a carbureted 2 stroke outboard in California. How long ago was it LEGAL to buy and then bring a 280 into Calif.
CARB was trying to mandate catalytic converters on all inboard boats a while back. They got their way and got rid of all carbureted engines in cars in 1990 and carbed outboards in I think 1995 or so.

California Air Resources Board (CARB) is governed by no one and answers to no one. They know whats best for you, just ask them.

Stinky
02-11-2007, 10:01 PM
-9,000 rpm capability

-Emission standards that satisfy the EPA and CARB.

Lou

These two things are physicaly impossible in a 2 stroke with any one the technologys that are available at this time.

:cool:

The Big Al
02-11-2007, 10:16 PM
I remember back in the early 90's when the 2.4 then the 2.5 came out.

You herd the same **** you here today!

They are heavy and will not turn the RPM of a 2.0l
And will not out run one, can't turn the RPM's!!!!!

Now!!!!!

"HOW STUPID DOES THIS SOUND NOW???"

It's true!

3.0 is the deal and will be the deal!

I will have me one before this year is out.

B1750
02-11-2007, 10:25 PM
I remember back in the early 90's when the 2.4 then the 2.5 came out.

You herd the same **** you here today!

They are heavy and will not turn the RPM of a 2.0l
And will not out run one, can't turn the RPM's!!!!!

Now!!!!!

"HOW STUPID DOES THIS SOUND NOW???"

It's true!

3.0 is the deal and will be the deal!

I will have me one before this year is out.
No ones understating what the 3.0 is capable of all we are saying is that the 3.0 is lil too heavy for some of the smaller boats especially when it comes to turning

I only have a 1750 and we have had a 3.0 225 Merc on the back, went well down the straight as you would expect but didn't corner in the slightest, we were on average around 20-30mp/h slower in the corners with the 3.0 over the 2.5

If somehow they could make a 3.0 to the same weight of a 2.5 then that would be perfect but i would see that as being near impossible

2fast4mom
02-11-2007, 10:31 PM
Gary..Don't get me started. Outboards were targeted because they were an easy target.

My guess is, that one 747 going from LA to NY one time pollutes the environment more than all the outboards in existence do for one year. Carbureted and EFI ones, that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fast4mom

-9,000 rpm capability

-Emission standards that satisfy the EPA and CARB.

Lou


These two things are physicaly impossible in a 2 stroke with any one the technologys that are available at this time.


That may well be true. Like I said, it's a challenge. :)

stevek
02-11-2007, 10:53 PM
I remember back in the early 90's when the 2.4 then the 2.5 came out.

You herd the same **** you here today!

They are heavy and will not turn the RPM of a 2.0l
And will not out run one, can't turn the RPM's!!!!!

Now!!!!!

"HOW STUPID DOES THIS SOUND NOW???"

It's true!

3.0 is the deal and will be the deal!

I will have me one before this year is out.


I have considered options for repowering my YT. When I emailed Jaco asking about the new Merc HP consumer OB I was told they all weighted (505lbs) to much for my boat. I don’t know the weight of a 2.5 HP motor, but I have to believe it is nowhere near 505 lbs.

Big Al, I think this is point fast4mom is trying to make.

gfinch
02-12-2007, 01:36 AM
"Gary..Don't get me started. Outboards were targeted because they were an easy target."
Lou, you were born started!;)
The technology is starting to catch up, but it will be a while as it trickles down. In outboards unfortunately, I don't think we will see the light, powerful, high winding engine you seek. For niche consumers like us, no. The show case factory race craft, yes.
Now if boat racing would really catch on again and there were other players besides Mother Merc and DA Bomb, who knows!
It's not Green engines it's Green $$$....

whipper
02-12-2007, 02:06 AM
Personaly I agree with the fact that the 2.5 was a better motor combination over the 3.0 on 21 and under hulls for sure and that is undisputed! Like what is mentioned the 3.0l is also a great combo on alot of the 21 and under hulls thats a fact.The differance I see is that the 3.0l is heavier than the 2,5 and there for will make your boat slower than the same horse power 2.5 on hulls 21 or less not to mention a lack of RPM! I truly believe that the future will bring us 3.0l and up but they will get lighter and that has been proven time and time again. The auto engine manufacturing are always lowering there displacement and increasing there HP with less wieght. I believe we are just on the cusp of that reality in the marine industry. Just look at all the larger boats for sale over the 21 and unders it Ill bet 3-1 larger for sale. People are realizing again that bigger isnt nessesaraly better! More fuel more money more difficult to store = less use. At this years boat show my money is on good news for us in the way of lighter 3.0l,s and more skeg options for the smaller boat CROWD. A 350-400lb 300hp Verodo with a 15mid enough tourQue to spin a 32 pitch ET to 7500-8000RPM on a GS and a bobs cone sounds about right!!:D Dreamming will see. James

David
02-12-2007, 07:55 PM
I for one, was too cheap to buy a 200XS new. Holding out for used may not have been a good strategy as the motors are rare as hens teeth. I've seen one in my life.

Send me a pm big Al, when you resize to a 3L, and need to lose the 200XS. My little SS000 isn't enough boat for a 3L. At least not with me driving.